Best of 2025: We Refuse: A Forceful History of Black Resistance w/ Kellie Carter Jackson

Summary

The Majority Report with Sam Seder – Best of 2025: "We Refuse: A Forceful History of Black Resistance" with Kellie Carter Jackson

Date: December 31, 2025
Host: Sam Seder (with Emma Vigeland)
Guest: Dr. Kellie Carter Jackson – Associate Professor, Africana Studies, Wellesley College

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Episode Overview

For the final episode of 2025, The Majority Report revisits a standout interview from February: Sam Seder and Emma Vigeland’s in-depth conversation with historian Dr. Kellie Carter Jackson about her 2025 book, We Refuse: A Forceful History of Black Resistance. The discussion explores the broad toolkit of Black resistance throughout history, pushing beyond sanitized or binary understandings and reclaiming the often-elided histories of resilience, force, creativity, and joy.

The episode also features a second segment of Majority Report's irreverent commentary on recent right-wing media controversies, but the following summary focuses on the primary interview with Dr. Kellie Carter Jackson.

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Main Theme:

A wide-ranging, forceful reexamination of Black resistance in U.S. history—examining revolutions, self-defense, joy, and the creative, collective refusal to acquiesce to white supremacy. Dr. Carter Jackson’s work urges readers to rethink binaries of violence/nonviolence and the shallow symbolism that often replaces real change.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Write "We Refuse"?

[11:23]

• Jackson: Began writing during the 2020 uprising, “because I was mad, I was angry, and I was frustrated at the way the protests of 2020... had not really led to, like, structural or systemic change.”
• Critique of “hashtag activism” and the nonviolence/violence binary:

  “We have more than two tools, just... a hashtag or a protest or a Molotov cocktail.”

• Intention: Expand our conception of resistance, showcasing the full spectrum, from the Haitian Revolution to the present.

2. The Limits of 2020’s Uprisings & ‘Backlash” Cycle

[12:44-16:22]

• Why didn’t the scale of protest produce structural change?
• Pandemic played a role: “you have way more eyeballs on this event than you probably would have...”
• Systemic change is threatened when it means “relinquish[ing] power or control.”
• America’s “deep allegiance to white supremacy” makes real redistribution of power difficult.

  “We got more symbols. We got more trinkets because it’s cheaper.”

• Every real Black advancement in U.S. history is met with “widespread backlash—political, economic, social,” e.g., after Reconstruction, the 1920s, civil rights, post-2020 “DEI backlash.”
• Nonviolence and hashtags are often “ineffective. And we need new tools, we need new ideas.”

3. The Sanitizing of Black Radicalism & Historical Amnesia

[17:19-18:48]

• Emma raises ‘sanitizing’ of Black history—e.g., even Mandela was on U.S. terror lists until 2008.
• MLK “was hated... You’ve got civil rights on the cheap. You need to pay up.”
• Malcolm X’s more radical stances and early Mandela’s readiness to use force have been whitewashed.
• History is “the greatest tool I have in correcting the record.”

4. Family Histories of Force and Self-Defense

• Personal Narratives: Grandma’s revolver and family’s ritual of jail for safety.

  “I just could not fathom prison being a safe space for Black men.” [19:31]

• “Black women in particular... have used their Second Amendment rights to defend themselves, particularly from the Ku Klux Klan.”
• Even MLK: “He might have believed in nonviolence, but he also believed in self-defense.”
• On resisting binary framing:

  “He did not see them [nonviolence and self-defense] as in opposition.” [21:44]

5. Revolution: Haiti’s Overdue Recognition

[25:10]

• Haiti’s revolution is “a feature” of the era, not a footnote: only revolution to abolish slavery.
• The hypocrisy of U.S./European narratives:

  “Black people are actually serving Thomas Jefferson while he’s drafting the Declaration of Independence... the hypocrisy knows no bounds.”

• Enduring price Haiti paid for freedom: forced to pay reparations to slaveholders; U.S. and French embargoes and invasions.
• Revolutionary moments are easier to ignite than to sustain.

6. Protection: Margaret Garner & The Underground Railroad

[27:49, 31:04]

• The harrowing story of Margaret Garner:

  “She decides to kill her children, that she would rather have them die than have them go back into slavery... protection is such a radical act.” [27:49]

• Underground Railroad as “pragmatic, practical protection”—facing immense personal risk in defiance of brutal laws.

7. Armed Black Resistance: Carrie Johnson & the Power of Self-Defense

[33:09-38:08]

• 1919 Red Summer: 17-year-old Carrie Johnson defends her home during a white mob attack, kills a white police officer, later acquitted.

  “This sent a message that Black people would defend themselves, that they would be armed...”

• History buried out of “shame” and desire to avoid “revealing a vulnerability in the white community.”

8. The Black Panthers, Self-Defense & Community Care

[38:22-41:01]

• Panthers begin as an armed self-defense group but shift focus: “Within the first year... they put down the weapons.”
• Their free breakfast, clinics, and other services “more terrifying to the American populace... fed, literate, healthy Black people.”
• “Protection is not always about a gun. Protection is about food. Protection is about literacy. Protection is about good health... a safe community and access to resources.”

9. Joy as Resistance

[41:22-44:00]

• “Joy as a weapon. I see joy as a balm... the pinnacle of the Black experience.”
• Example: The 2023 Alabama dock brawl—social media memes and humor “celebration and mockery of whiteness... poking fun at white supremacy to rob it of its legitimacy.”
• “Black people need joy. We need joy in order to survive. It is what affirms our humanity.”

10. Lessons for Broader Resistance/Coalition-Building

[44:45-52:09]

• The toolkit is for everyone fighting oppression:

  “Refusal is collective and refusal is global... Now more than anything, we need deep and wide coalitions.”

• Beyond 3-point plans and binaries; get creative, use all talents:

  “We need the engineer and the poet, we need the graffiti artist and the medical doctor... it’s an all hands on deck moment.”

• Even a “small group of committed people willing to make sacrifice... can change the world over. The abolitionists did it.”
• Cautions against “aspirational whiteness” and self-preserving proximity to power; emphasizes universal needs: health, safety, decent living.
• “Whiteness and white supremacy is a problem, but so is capitalism... so is patriarchy.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On 2020 Protest Fallout:

  “Aunt Jemima got a remix. And I’m like, this is not what we asked for.” — Jackson [13:12]

• On Backlash:

  “Every time you get Black history, even... if that history is somewhat progressive... you get widespread backlash.” — Jackson [15:01]

• Personal Family History:

  “My grandmother may have died in Detroit, but she was a southerner... all the white men would get drunk and they would lynch any Black man in town. So if you were already in jail, that was your alibi.” — Jackson [19:31]

• On Haiti:

  “It defeats Napoleon’s empire. And it basically says, and we will be a free nation. ... They paid heavily for that.” — Jackson [25:10]

• Margaret Garner’s Dilemma:

  “The choices you are given are to live life in bondage or to refuse and limp. Racism and white supremacy handicaps you.” — Jackson [22:09]

• Underground Railroad:

  “When the Fugitive Slave Law passed... the new Mason Dixon line was Canada’s border.” — Jackson [31:28]

• Carrie Johnson:

  “They could not believe that a 17-year-old Black girl has fatally wounded this police officer... The black press... told her story over and over and kept it in the headlines so that she could get justice for defending herself.” — Jackson [33:09-36:00]

• On the Panthers:

  “Hoover realized... what was more terrifying to the American populace was actually not armed Black people. It was fed, literate, healthy Black people.” — Jackson [38:56]

• Joy as Resistance:

  “If we have nothing else, we have each other. And when we have each other, there is always joy and laughter to be found.” — Jackson [43:13]

• Broader Lessons:

  “Refusal is collective and refusal is global... I want people to refuse... it’s an all hands on deck moment.” — Jackson [45:38]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Book origins & frustration with 2020 protests: [11:06–12:26]
• Limits of protest, systemic inertia, ‘symbolic’ changes instead of structural: [12:26–14:42]
• Backlash, white supremacy’s reluctance to surrender power: [15:01–16:22]
• Sanitization of Black leaders, Mandela, King, Malcolm X: [17:19–18:48]
• Personal/family stories – gun for self-defense, using jail for protection: [19:31–21:44]
• Chapter “Force”: Arming for protection, MLK and guns: [21:44–23:39]
• Haitian Revolution: [25:10–27:25]
• Protection – Margaret Garner’s act: [27:49–31:04]
• Underground Railroad, Fugitive Slave Law: [31:04–32:48]
• Armed Black resistance, Carrie Johnson: [33:09–38:08]
• Black Panthers, community care: [38:22–41:01]
• Joy as resistance: [41:22–44:00]
• Broader lessons, coalitions beyond Black Americans: [44:45–52:09]

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Summary & Takeaways

Dr. Kellie Carter Jackson’s interview overlays personal history and rigorous scholarship to challenge stagnant narratives around Black resistance. She demonstrates the multifaceted, adaptive, and creative responses oppressed people have developed—often buried by mainstream discourse. Her call is for historical honesty, broad coalitions, and the will to think beyond empty gestures and false binaries.

Key message: Real resistance is neither monolithic nor locally bounded; it is, at its most powerful, collective, creative, and transformative—a lesson for every justice movement facing backlash and entrenched power.

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End of Main Interview.
(Segment after [52:22] returns to hosts’ commentary and right-wing media analysis.)

Transcript

[Sam Cedar]

The Majority Report with Sam Cedar. The destiny of America is always safer in the hands of the people than in the conference rooms of any elite. Sam Cedar. They are unanimous in their hate for me and I welcome their hatred. We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought by the military industrial complex. The Majority Report with Sam Cedar. And I get the feeling you've been cheated. It is Wednesday, December 31, 2025. My name is Sam Cedar. This is the five time award winning Majority Report. We are broadcasting live to tape steps from the industrially ravaged Gowanus Canal in the heartland of America, Downtown Brooklyn, USA. It is the final show of 2025 and we are doing our best of series. Yes, we've actually taken vacation. It's really the only week, the only six or seven days the entire year where we're all on vacation. Today on the program we are going to play an interview we did in February of 2025. Kelly Carter Jackson, associate professor at Wellesley in the Department of Africana Studies.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

And.

[Sam Cedar]

On her book We Refuse a forceful history of black Resistance. Then later in the program, Matt will do his. Matt picks where he has picked some amusing stuff for you to enjoy as well. It is the final day of 2025. We're on vacation. We've, we've managed to go through Christmas. In fact, I probably got back yesterday, not literally yesterday, but as people are hearing this for the first time yesterday from my girlfriend's place, I was there for an entire like six or seven days with her family for the holidays. I'm hoping it went well. It probably did. They're very nice. I like them very much. The whole family I like and it's a big family. My kids were there for part of it. I mean if assuming everything goes right, I mean it could have been. Last time I did this I had a emergency root canal and so maybe I had another emergency root canal. That'd be convenient. Yeah, it would be interesting. It would create a pattern. I think it would definitely create a pattern. But it's the final day of 2025, folks. We made it. We made it through. It's not a full year of the Trump administration, but we, we made it through 2025 and for all I know he hasn't. Right, Right. I mean it's not inconceivable you take five or six days off like this. Yeah, everything changes. I mean, who knows, we could be in a full on war with Venezuela at this point. We could be Donald Trump. You know, something could have gone Wrong. When he was plugged up to the iv And JD Vance could be president. Now, what other predictions could you make at this point? Because we've been off for enough days. Where we've been off for like six or seven days is about, what, 20 years in regular time. Exactly. So what other predictions could you make at this point? There could be a war. We don't. We could be at war with Iran. Yeah. Could be storming Bondi Beach. I don't know. That's. Yeah, we could be at war with Australia too. You're saying. I mean, you're really basically just. It's like one of those Twitter. Twitter handles where somebody's just like, January 31st is going to be a crazy day. Yeah, I wrote that last week. So. Broken clock situation. Exactly. But who knows? But folks, we've made it through the year and. I don't know. And we'll make it through the next one. How's that? One thing I appreciate about Trump, though, is as I get older, time goes by fast. But he has a way of making time last. Where I felt like almost every minute of this year, there's something that parents say to each other, new parents. It's like every day is like a year and every year is like a day. Yeah. That's how you feel about Trump. No, I feel like every year is like, like, like 10 years. Yeah. I feel like I am 10 years older than I was a year ago. Usually the president ages 10 years in advance, but he's aging the population else 10 years. Yeah, it's nuts. But folks, you're going to make some New Year's resolutions tonight. It's going to be like, I got to work out more. I'm going to lose some weight. I'm going to be, you know, nicer to. I'm going to learn a new language. Right. And why do people want to learn a new language? Well, it's probably not about like grammar or. I am, I'm very interested in the pluperfect tense. It is because you want to speak it. You want to communicate to people out in the real world with real people. Well, babble gets you there. And fast. Learning a language with Babel is all about small steps, big wins in progress. You can actually track and feel. Their bite sized lessons fit easily into your daily routine. They are also easy to remember. Just 10 minutes a day is enough to start seeing real results. Babel recognizes that real world connections are at the heart of language learning. Their courses are designed by real human beings and teach you relevant words and Phrases you're going to actually use so you can start speaking with confidence in as little as three weeks. Babel lets you practice real life conversation without the stress. You'll build the confidence to speak up when it matters. For me, like, I can do babble. I'll, I'll throw a lesson on when I'm walking down to work. I'll do it when, like, oh, I gotta go pick up Saul at the drum practice or something like that. And I got 10 minutes to kill and bingo, bango, I can do a lesson. It is, it, it is really like, and I am old and I am not good at languages and I feel like I'm getting good at like, like hearing Spanish, like occasionally, like, I'll turn on and I can, I can pick up words and I can, you know, I sometimes have a decent accent. All right, Joe Pence. Okay, so what'd you say? I think so. Oh. All right. Babel adapts to your learning style and keeps you motivated with personalized learning plans, real time feedback and progress. Checking. Babel has over 25 million subscriptions sold worldwide with 14 languages to choose from. Every course comes with a 20 day money back guarantee. And here's a special, a special, I should say limited time deal for you right now. Get up to 55% off your babel subscription. Make your New Year's resolution [e-mail] majority. Get 55% [e-mail] majority spelled B A B, B E L.com majority. Rules and restrictions may apply. All right, we're going to take a quick break and when we come back, Em and I interviewing Kelly Carter Jackson on her book we Refuse A forceful history of Black Resistance. We did that interview back in February of 2025, folks. Have a great and happy New Year. We will see you tomorrow. We're going to have another Best of Tomorrow. Yes. Even on New Year's Day. So you're going to wake up. Maybe some people wake up early, have their black eyed peas and their collard greens and what you don't know about that. The Southern tradition. Is that right? Yeah. It's supposed to give you. Bring you good luck. Dude, I grew up in Worcester, Mass. I grew up in Maine. I know it well. Maine is actually not as like there's. It's. Maine's a lot more like the south than Worcester is. Yeah. Yeah. Same flannels. They just keep the sleeves on. Yeah. I just don't, I don't know exactly what we would do in New Year's in Worcester. It was just like Ah, whatever. Yeah, just get into a fist fight. Yeah, exactly. I'm sorry, are you looking at me? Is there a problem? Think you're better than me? Is there a problem? You got a problem with me? Hey, four eyes. What are you looking at? All right, I'm sorry. So enjoy. Enjoy this interview and enjoy Matt's picks. And then we'll be back tomorrow and for sure we're going to be live Monday the 5th.

[Emma Viglen]

We may.

[Sam Cedar]

Emma and I may. Come on. Maybe we'll put a. We'll put a little. Yeah, we may do an AMA type of thing, but if we do get the [e-mail] you can get it for iOS or Android. It doesn't cost anything. Put your notifications on. We'll send out a notification and then you'll know that we're doing it. Also, just coffee. You want some coffee for the new year? Just coffee. Co op, fair trade coffee. Use a coupon code. Majority. Get 10% off. Become a member of the Majority Report. Jointhemajorityreport.com It'll help support the show into 2026 as we bring you all of the ups and downs of next year. And hope springs eternal. Big election year, but we'll talk more about that as the year goes on. And don't forget the Am Quickie Am Quickie.com three days a week. You can get some emails in your. Your email box at 9am with the day's top stories. Okay, Here is Kelly Carter Jackson. We are back. Sam Cedar, Emma Viglen on the Majority Report. Joining us now, Kelly Carter Jackson, associate professor of Africana Studies at Wellesley College, author of We Refuse A Forceful History of Black Resistance. Welcome to the program, Kelly.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

Hey, Happy Black History Month.

[Sam Cedar]

Thank you. You too. Let's start with. Well, let me ask you why this, why this book for you and in terms of, like, the timing, context.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

Oh, man. So this book has been ruminating for years, really, since 2020 is when I started writing it. And I tell everybody I wrote it because I was mad, I was angry, and I was frustra at the way that the protests of 2020 had materialized and had not really led to, like, structural or systemic change. I'm frustrated with protests writ large and sort of like hashtag activism. And I wanted to also get outside of the bubble of, like, violence and nonviolence. I think we have these, like, really limiting ideas of what we think nonviolence is and what we think violence is. And I wanted to push back on that and kind of expand it and say, like, we have More than two tools, just, you know, a hashtag or a protest or a Molotov cocktail. Like, there's got to be more tools in our tool belt than just those two ideas. And so this book we refuse really is about looking at all the blaze, all the ways that black people have. Have resisted from the Haitian revolution until this present moment.

[Sam Cedar]

Why do you think. And I know this isn't. This is a little bit. Little tangential to the book, and we'll get into that in a second, but why do you think that we did see. Why do you think that those protests did not have the traction that in the moment it felt like they could have?

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

Yeah, it felt like there was a lot of groundswell. It felt like there were a lot of vibes, if you will.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, it's just in sheer numbers. I mean, I didn't see anything like that since, you know, maybe the Iraq war in terms. But in the. The number of protests, I don't think even existed during Iraq at that time, even, you know, like Occupy, there was nothing really to rival that. It was close. But why do you think none of that?

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

I think part of that. Well, part of the fact that we had so much attention. I think I give credit to the pandemic. I mean, people had paused globally. And so when something like George Floyd's murder goes viral, you have way more eyeballs on this event than you probably would have had there not been the pandemic had we not been sort of forced to shut down and lock in. And I think people are paying attention, and people were upset, and people realized just how much racism is also a public health issue crisis. And there were so many things colliding in that moment that I think made sort of the nation come to a standstill. But I also think that in this country, we have a very difficult time, one having conversations about race. We have an even more difficult time when it comes to doing systemic or structural change. If it costs us something, if we have to relinquish power or control, we have a hard time accomplishing that. And I think that for a lot of reasons, we didn't see the change that we wanted. You know, we saw, like, street names change or statues come down or Aunt Jemima got, like, a remix. And I'm like, this is not what we asked for. This is actually not what people petitioned for. People were talking about true police reform, like, actually abolishing their police. People had revolutionary ideas, and those things never really got tackled in ways that I felt like were structural. We got more symbols. We got More trinkets because it's cheaper.

[Jordan Peterson]

But I.

[Sam Cedar]

Just one more question. But why? I mean, because I hear you say, like, yeah, it's true. Power is not going to relinquish. Nobody's going to relinquish power where what short circuited, where the taking of that power did not happen.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

I think that when it comes down to it, the hard truth is we have been unwilling to recognize our deep allegiance to white supremacy, our deep allegiance to power and position and privilege, as, as white Americans, that people don't really want to let go of all of the advantages that that allows that that fortifies them to have. And so you get a deep pushback. I mean, and we've seen this throughout history. Every time you get black history, even, even if that history is. Is somewhat progressive, is even symbolically progressive, you get widespread backlash. Political backlash, economic backlash, social backlash. You've seen it in reconstruction, you've seen it in the 1920s and 30s. You've seen it in the civil rights movement, saw right after the summer of 2020 was deep political backlash. I mean, it's not a coincidence that January 6th happens right after that. There's anti DEI backlash that sweeps across the country. People do not want to let go of their power and privilege and position. And I also think that we have seen that nonviolence, and in some cases, when it comes down to protest and petitions and hashtags, it doesn't work. It's ineffective. And we need new tools, we need new ideas. We need to be creative about pushing ideas that really will work.

[Emma Viglen]

And how much of it is what you talk about? I guess the history of. There's two things I feel like that work together here is like the individualization of racism as opposed to making it a systemic thing, where people feel like it has to do with their own work internally, as opposed to deep structural change, which I think benefits white supremacy. But. But really also that the other piece is the sanitization of violence in history in terms of black resistance is really important here because, you know, there's a reason that's not in this country. But how long was Nelson Mandela on the US terror watch list? What, until 2007, 2008? Can you speak about, like, where did that begin? Where did. Maybe it's Reagan with MLK Day. Where did.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

I mean, I think you're onto something. I mean, when we think about mlk, he was hated. He was despised. If he had poll numbers in the 1960s, they would have been in the low, low numbers. I mean, people did not like MLK Especially, especially when he started speaking out against the Vietnam War, especially when he started talking about capitalism and basically saying, like, this is going to cost you. You've gotten civil rights on the cheap. You need to pay up. We need to move into human rights and reparations. People didn't want to hear from King. And then after he got assassinated, and then decades later, we get this sanitized, very diluted version of King that's very much nostalgic and romanticized, but that's not really what King was, was standing up for. I think we have amnesia when it comes to, like, our leaders. You know, when we think about Malcolm X and the idea that he was pushing this by any means necessary and really building global coalitions across people of color. The things that he was doing put a target on his back and we forget those things. We forget the things that made people sort of unsavory. Even early in Nelson Mandela's career, he also had championed using force and using violence. And we forget that. And so I think history for me is the greatest weapon. It's one of the greatest tools that I have in sort of correcting the record and letting people know, hey, we have been here before, we have done this before. Here's what's worked, here's what hasn't worked. And using history as a blueprint, if.

[Sam Cedar]

You will, let's start as we address these. And I think you just touched a little bit on chapter three, force. You've, you've divided the book into basically five, I guess, elements of, you know, within the spectrum of what, you know, arrows in the quiver, I guess, of resistance. But let's start with your great grandmother's resistance, because this is one where, I mean, she paid a price individually, but also it was. She was faced with an individual price to pay. Otherwise.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

Yeah, I mean, when I think about my grandmother, this is my grandmother reading my father's mother. When she passed away, we were cleaning out her apartment and we realized that she had a gun in her nightstand. And we were like, what? Grandma's got a gun? And, you know, we were kind of shocked by that because I had, you know, these again, memories of my grandmother being this sweet lady that made like lemon meringue pie. You know, I didn't think of her as someone who would be gun toting. And yet when I think about how she grew up, you know, my grandmother may have died in Detroit, but she was a southerner. She was born in Louisiana. And she told me stories about how her brothers and her uncles would have to go to jail on the weekends. And I was like, what do you mean they have to go to jail on the weekends? And she would say, well, yeah, you know, back then, all the white men would get drunk and they would lynch any black man in town. So if you were already in jail, that was your alibi. And I just could not fathom prison being a safe space for black men, Prison being a space that would be a refuge on the weekends when white men are getting drunk and lynching anyone. And you didn't want someone to say that you had sexually assaulted or raped a white woman. And so you went to jail, and then on Sunday morning, you went out and you went to church. And that, to me, showed me that my grandmother was growing up in an environment where white terrorism was very real and it was heightened on the weekends, it was weekly, and she had to protect, she had to arm herself. And I talk all in that chapter of Force about black women in particular that have used their second amendment rights to defend themselves, particularly from the Ku Klux Klan, particularly from white supremacists that would try to firebomb their houses, that would try to destroy their communities. You know, people like Rosa Parks talked about how her kitchen table was covered with guns. Ida B. Wells talked about the importance of having guns in her home and protecting herself from the Klan. So these are the lived experiences that black people that we often don't talk about. Even MLK talked about his home being in Arsenal. He had a friend who came over to his house, and he was like, whoa, don't sit there. There's a whole bunch of guns and pistols underneath that seat. Like, he might have believed in nonviolence, but he also believed in self defense, and he did not see them as in opposition.

[Sam Cedar]

What about Ernesta? I guess I'm thinking of, too.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

Oh, Ernesta. So Ernesta was my great grandmother, who I opened the book with her. I talk about how when she was nine years old, she stepped on a rusty nail and likely got tetanus, a serous bacterial infection, and she could have died. And my great great grandmother took her, really, to the only white doctor she knew, this white man who lived in a big house.

[Sam Cedar]

When was this? What year?

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

1915. This is rural Alabama in 1915. So 50 years out from slavery. And this white doctor offers to help her, but in exchange, she says that Ernesta has to live with him and work for his family for the rest of her life. She is nine years old. It is 1915. She is a girl. You know, this is a position in which she could be susceptible or vulnerable to sexual exploitation, to all kinds of physical violence, let alone that they had been abolished. And what I'm so grateful for is my great, great great grandmother, whose name I just found out was Martha. Martha intervened and refused the doctor's proposal. She said, absolutely not, no way. In fact, never. And she picks up her ailing granddaughter Ernesta, finds every concoction she can think of in her household, and she saves Ernesta's life. And for the rest of her life, Ernesta walked with a limp. And I talk about how that experience is very akin to the black experience that oftentimes the choices you are given are to live life in bondage or to refuse and limp, that racism and white supremacy handicaps you. And we don't talk about all the full ways that it has a detrimental effect on black people's lives, that black people spend most of their lives responding to, addressing, or avoiding the violence of white supremacy.

[Sam Cedar]

All right, well, you. And so in going through this sort of different elements of a response to oppression, the first is revolution. And you talk about the Haitian Revolution. We've covered the Haitian revolution a decent amount here over the years. It was the maybe the only first sort of like, maybe not just the first, but maybe the only complete sort of revolution, decolonizing and slave uprising, certainly in that era. And one which the Haitian people, to ultimately get the French to stop embargoing them, had to pay the value that France lost in the loss of their slaves, the free labor. Yes, they paid reparations to slaveholders, and that represented something like 25% of its GDP up until not that long ago. And so when we look at Haiti as a country that's, you know, has all sorts of problems, contemplate the idea of this country having to pay 40% of its GDP over the course of 150 years or something. It's just absurd. But go ahead, talk about the Haitian Revolution.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

Yeah, the Haitian Revolution. I mean, I feel like we don't do it justice, you know, we make it a footnote in history. And I feel like it's a feature, you know, in the age of revolutions when we think of the American Revolution and the French Revolution, the Haitian Revolution is the only revolution that actually abolishes the institution of slavery in the United States. You have slavery for another hundred years. So you're talking about liberty and equality and independence, and black people are still enslaved. Like, black people are actually serving Thomas Jefferson while he's drafted the Declaration of Independence. Like George Washington is sending out slave catchers while he's Also fighting the British while he has enslaved people running away from him. Like, the hypocrisy knows no bounds. But when we think about Haiti, you know, it's an all black republic. It overthrows a European empire, it defeats Napoleon's empire. And it basically says, and we will be a free nation. We will be a free black nation. And they paid heavily for that. They paid heavily for that, not just in the tax that came in terms of reparations for slaveholders, but in the way that we talk about the Haitian revolution, the way that we have dealt with Haitians. It took until the civil war for Haiti to actually get diplomatic recognition from the United States. It took a long time for Haiti to get back on its feet. And even then, the United states invades in 1915 and occupies it for another 20, 30 years. And we've seen all these different puppet dictators that pop up. I think part of that is because, again, our unwillingness to acknowledge, like, what black empowerment could look like, what it could be, what it could do, its full capacity. And I often say that the hardest part of a revolution is actually not achieving it. It's sustaining it, it's making it lasting. And even when we look at the American Revolution, you know, I say that America was like, conceived of in 1776, but it's not really born until 1863, until 1865, until you get the Emancipation Proclamation, until you get, you know, the 13th amendment that abolishes slavery. The United States really isn't the United States. It could be until it reconstructs itself. And I see that as its revolution. I see that as its birthplace, really.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's talk about the concept of protection as we're looking at the sort of like the different, I guess, responses to in some way, an unjust system. You write about Margaret Garner just before the Civil War, I guess this would be in the 1850s.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

Yeah, 1853. She's an enslaved woman who is running away with her family, with her husband and with her in laws and their four children. And they lived in the slave state of Kentucky, which is a border state to Ohio. And during the winter, they decide to steal a horse and a sled, and they are going to make their way to the free state of Ohio. And they cross the river, which is frozen solid at the time, and they make their way to Ohio. And they're only there for a few hours before slave catchers inevitably follow their tracks through the snow. Follow them to Ohio to where a family member's house that they were staying in and. And Margaret Garner makes this horrific decision where she decides, I cannot go back to slavery. I will not send my children back to slavery. It is a fate worse than death. And so she decides to kill her children, that she would rather have them die than have them go back into slavery. And so she winds up slitting the throat of her youngest child. It's horrific. She's telling her mother in law, help me, mother, help me kill the children. It is terrible. It is blood everywhere. There is banging outside the door. The U.S. marshals are there. They're trying to ram in the door. And when they finally get the door open, they see this bloodbath. They see her youngest child, Scylla, that has been slain. They see her attempting to try to kill another child. It is an awful, awful, unimaginable moment. And it's one. One of two things happens. One, the south uses it as a way to say, see, black women are unfit to be mothers. They're not good mothers, and she should be punished for this. It's another way for the abolitionist movement to see slavery is so horrible, it is so violent, it would drive someone to kill their children. And really, Margaret Garner is left in the middle of that, trying to reconcile what is the best decision that she could make for her children. And, you know, as a mother of three kids, you know, I have a 10 year old, a 7 year old, a 4 year old. I cannot imagine being in that predicament. But it does shed light just on how violent slavery was and how much parents did not want their children to experience it. You know, the coroner's report talked about how Cilla was very fair skinned, how she had, you know, like blonde hair and blue eyes, which to me says that she was probably a child of sexual assault, that rape was rampant in slavery, and this was something she did not want her daughter to experience. Later, Margaret Garner winds up dying in the institution of slavery, and her husband lives. And on her deathbed, she says, promise me, promise me that you will marry a free woman next. Promise me that you will not have any more children in slavery. And it's a harrowing, harrowing story. But it's one that I wanted to talk about in terms of the chapter, protection, because I felt like protection is such a radical act that what she did feels so extreme to us. But at its heart, she was trying to express the greatest form of care and love and protection that she could give for her children, which was to keep them from the institution of slavery.

[Sam Cedar]

You also talk about the underground Railroad under that rubric. I mean, it's somewhat self evident, but it is. The idea, I guess, is really just sort of like what constitutes a very practical, pragmatic response. Maybe not necessarily pragmatic, I mean, but a. But a practical response.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

I think that applies. I mean, when you think about the Fugitive slave law of 1850, it basically said that if you ran away from your slave master that you could be retrieved and it didn't matter. If you ran away five days ago, five years ago, you could be living longer in freedom than you were in slavery. You could be returned to your master. It meant that the new Mason Dixon line was Canada's border. So you really only had two options as a black person. You could flee, you could try to get to Canada, or you could stay and you could stand your ground. And that's what the abolitionist movement was and the Underground Railroad was. It was a collection of black people that said, we're going to protect you by any means necessary, even at the risk of our own lives. And so I tell all of these really heroic stories of black people and their white comrades that came to the help of these fugitives and helped them get to freedom and help them get either to the north or further north, get to Europe or Canada. And these are stories that I think about now in my own 21st century mind. I'm like, man, would I have had the gall, Could I have hid someone? Could I have threatened the U.S. marshal? Could I have put my own risk at life? I don't know. But during those times, people put everything on the line to protect not just their family members, but strangers to help them get to freedom.

[Sam Cedar]

You mentioned you touched on a little bit of force and the idea of, you know, that people that we wouldn't have necessarily contemplated. Your grandmother, I don't.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

But were armed and that the idea of arming themselves. Talk a little bit. Tell us who Carrie Johnson is.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

Oh, Carrie Johnson. These are all good stories. These are all in the book. Carrie Johnson is a 17 year old black girl who's living in 1919 in Washington D.C. and during 1919, historians know it as the summer of like red summer. It's when racial riots are taking place all across the country. And so in Chicago and Little Rock and Washington D.C. you know, all across the country there are these race riots, really massacres where black communities are being under attack by the Klan and white supremacists. And in D.C. the mob is at bay and they are going through the black neighborhood and they are pulling black people out of their homes. They're beating them up, they're throwing rocks into their homes. They're shooting in black communities. They're dragging black folks off streetcars to beat them up. They're lynching black people on the spot. It is incredible, you know, Carter G. Woodson, the father of Black History Month, is walking home from Howard University and he sees a lynching take place right in front of him in D.C. and so Carrie is this 17 year old girl who's armed. And her father tells her, hey, listen, get high ground, get to the roof or to the second floor. If you see someone coming, you defend our household. And that's what she does. The mob comes marching down, about 1,000 strong of white people marching through her black neighborhood. And she starts to take pot shots at the mobbers that are coming down her block. And the crazy thing is that there are police officers that are there and they're not stopping the mob. Matter of fact, they're encouraging the mob. And the mob says to them, hey, there's someone in that window. There's someone taking shots at us. And so the police gather up and they go to Kerry's house. They don't knock on the door, they just knock the door down. They don't announce themselves. They go into this dark house and Carrie and her father are hiding in her bedroom on the second floor. And as the officers creep up the door of this dark, the stairwell of this dark house and they open up her bedroom and immediately Carrie starts shooting. You know, she is fearing for her life. She doesn't know who's on the other side of that door. And police officers are shooting at the walls. They don't know where the bullets are coming from. And within moments, you know, Carrie is shot in the shoulder. Her father is shot in the thigh. And Officer Harry Wilson is shot fatally. And he lay on the floor dying. And they drag Carrie and her father from under the bed. They march them out to the street. They cannot believe that 17 year old black girl has fatally wounded this police officer. And the crowd and the mob is sort of standing there almost ready to like lynch Carrie. And at that moment it begins to like rain, like torrential rain pour down. And that is what saves her life, that is what quails the mob. And everyone decides to go home because it's raining, it's pouring outside. And the crazy thing about Carrie is that there's a trial, she's convicted, they appeal and she's acquitted. They don't want to charge her anymore. They release her. At 19 years old, she's free to go. And I'm like what? It's 1919. This black girl kills a cop, is free to go. What in the world? I mean, these are different times for sure, but I think part of it was that there was a lot of shame in the white community that this white officer could be killed by a black teenage girl. And they didn't even want to put in the headline. They put in the headline, you know, a white officer killed by Negro. They wouldn't say that it was a girl. They wouldn't say that she was 17. You know, they did not want to point attention to who she was. And it was thankfully the black press that told her story over and over and kept it in the headlines so that she could get justice and for defending herself. And eventually that's what the judge says. The judge drops the charges and says she defended herself.

[Sam Cedar]

Do you think it was shame or was it not wanting to reveal a potential vulnerability?

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

I think it was both. I think it was absolutely both. I think this is the only riot in the summer of 1919 where the White casualties are higher than the black casualt, where there are 10 white people that are killed. And this sent a message that black people would defend themselves, that they would be armed, that a lot of black people who participated in this fight, they were veterans, they were coming home from World War I and they came home armed, and they were like, oh, here's what you're not going to do. We just fought and died and bled for this country. You're not going to ramshackle our communities. And they did not want to send a message of what an empowered back populace could look like. And so a lot of these stories get buried. So a lot of my work as a historian is about trying to uncover these stories and to say, look at what happens when black people fought back these rebellions, these race riots get quailed when white people realize that their lives could equally be at risk.

[Emma Viglen]

And when you talk about that one, I mean, the invocation of the imagery, it reminds me of Breonna Taylor, but also it reminds me about the historical either whitewashing or ignoring of groups like the Black Panthers.

[Sam Cedar]

Right.

[Emma Viglen]

And they're both armed resistance and also usage of like basically kind of community solidarity to build a fortress against these factors. Because at the time, like, I guess the question is the role of the state in violence like this. Like, you know, when we're now beginning to explore the Malcolm X assassination and the police's role in that violence, can you talk about how that threat evolved of armed resistance, particularly in the civil rights movement?

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

Yeah, there Were the police were not a friend to the black community. They were not about the business of protecting and serving black communities. And part of the reason the Black Panther Party started, it was initially the Black Panther Party for self defense, was to protect black people in black communities from police assault, fun, police brutality. You know, they would. They would do this thing called like cop watch, where basically if someone got pulled over by the cops, you know, the Black Panthers would show up and they would watch kind of like the same way we do with our cell phones today, where we have like, you know, an eyewitness to what is happening in this altercation. But what's interesting about the Black Panther Party and what I think a lot of people forget is that within the first year or so, they put down the guns, they put down the weapons. They were like actually this kind of double edged sword. This is making us more a target of violence than is like a beneficiary of it. And they realized what was more important in their community was to make sure that their community was fed and healthy and literate. So they started free breakfast programs that spread all over the country. They had free health clinics, they had sickle cell testing, they had an ambulance program. And I think Hoover realized as well, the director of the FBI, that what was more terrifying to the American populace was actually not armed black people. It was fed, literate, healthy black people. And that is why they came after the Black Panther Party. You know, we have the Black Panther Party to thank for free breakfast today. My kids live in the lily white suburbs and they have free breakfast and free lunch at their school because of the groundwork that the Black Panther Party put in. I think they realized that protection is not always about a gun. Protection is about food. Protection is about literacy. Protection is about good health. Protection is about. About a safe community and access to resources. And that for me is like the biggest success story of the Black Panther Party. But, you know, history has demonized them in such a way in which, you know, we see the berets, we see the black leather, and we're like, oh, they're, you know, they're terrifying. And that's actually not the work that they were invested in.

[Sam Cedar]

Let's jump to, to Joy in terms of how that can be expression as well, because I want to also be able to, to sort of generalize this a little bit, but tell us about how Joy as a tool to respond to injustice works.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

So this was the best and hardest chapter for me to write. It's the last chapter. I really see Joy as a Weapon. I see joy as a bomb. I see joy as so many different things and really sort of like the pinnacle of the black experience. It's actually not one of trauma and violence, but one of joy and humor. And I sort of encapsulate that in the Alabama brawl. When we think about August of 2023, when these black dock worker was attacked, and all of a sudden all these black people came to his response on this dock in Alabama, and people are swimming to the dock. A 16 year old swimming to the dock, and you've got a man swinging a folding chair. And what gave me so much joy in that moment is not just to see black people defending another black person. Absolutely, yes. But it was the memes and the gifts and the humor and the reenactment and the joy that came like almost the celebration, celebration and mockery of whiteness in that moment where it was like poking fun at white supremacy to sort of rob it of its legitimacy. Like, that, to me, was everything. I saw people with merch. They had, like, folding chair earrings and they had T shirts. And I was like, like black people. Only black people. We will make fun of something. We will poke fun. We will take something that could be, you know, really violent, like a white woman calling the police on black people barbecuing, and we will make it a hashtag or a punchline. We'll call you Barbecue Becky and we'll make jokes about that. And I think there are just ways in which black people are always trying to sort of laugh, to keep from crying and sort of using joy to fortify them and to protect them during really hard and difficult times. You know, I think about the joy that kind of came from the pandemic. I mean, you think about people dying and sickness all around you, and again, the gifts and the memes and sort of the mockery and humor that came from that moment. I'll never forget that. And it just is a message to me that even when we see black people marching in the streets and sort of chanting, I can't breathe. And then, you know, two minutes later, somebody will break out into the electric slide, and Frankie Beverly will start to play. And then all of a sudden, it's like a block, like, wait, how do we go from this to this? Because black people need joy. We need joy in order to survive. It is what affirms our humanity. And so I wanted to end with that, because if we have nothing else, we have each other. And when we have each other, there is always joy and laughter to be found.

[Sam Cedar]

I mean, this is obviously, you know, people understand it's, you know, it's a history of black resistance and the various forms that it takes and on some level meant to be prescriptive in terms of a resource for future resistance. What about like, you know, we're in an era where the need for resistance could be a little bit wider than within the context of the black community and its allies. I mean, that, you know, I mean, immigrant, find out what immigrants, but also.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

Trans people, women, you name, but also.

[Sam Cedar]

You know, people who want just broadly speaking, maintain some semblance of at least the structure of a dem. Of a democracy.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

Sure.

[Sam Cedar]

As opposed to an oligarchy. What, what lessons can be taken here that are more, I guess, you know, that can be extrapolated, that aren't necessarily a function of the history of oppression of black people in the context of this country or endemic to cultural responses to this oppression. Like what are there, are there lessons that you see that can be taken to a broader audience? I should say a broader, not audience per se, but broader, I guess use.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

Yes. Populace, Sure. I mean, absolutely. I didn't just write this book for black people, even though I tell people all the time this is my sort of love letter to the black community. Refusal is collective and refusal is global. And you see that all over the world. You are seeing people refuse tyranny, refuse oligarchy, refuse, you know, these really oppressive systems. And I think now more than anything, we need deep and wide coalitions. We need people coming together to push back, to refuse against the power structures that be. Because we're all getting our clock clean. We're all, we're all paying $12 for eggs. We are all, we are all having to navigate health care in a very unjust system. And so I want people to refuse and I want people to sort of kind of take a letter from Gen Z. I mean, if there's one thing I've learned from my students, it's that binaries do not serve us well. The idea that it's right, it's wrong, it's good, it's bad, it's black, it's white, you know, it's this, it's that, you know, it's violence or it's non violence. I think we have an array of tools at our disposal that we can get creative, that we need everyone. We need the engineer and the poet, we need the graffiti artist and the medical doctor, we need the teacher and the politician. This is an all hands on deck moment. When we refuse, we have to stand up against all of These power structures. Now, I make it plain in the book, like if you want a three point plan, if you want a formula that is not this book, if you want me to solve racism by 20, 20, 35, that's not going to happen. But I think if you want to talk about what's not working, we should talk about that and discard that and we should start to get really creative about what could work. What possibilities do we have out there? How can we gather all of our efforts and talents and abilities and chip away at this problem? We're not going to swallow the ocean. You know, I can't do that, but I can do what, what I do best, which is write books and teach history and speak about this. And others will find their own talents and abilities to partner with others and to, and to keep that work going.

[Sam Cedar]

What it seems to me that one of the biggest challenges, and again, yes, I don't know if anybody has a solution at this moment of any of this, but the how do these sort of like methodologies or perspectives of resistance get translated when you're talking about populations that do not, that have not been defined by their fate? So in other words, you know, solidarity across amongst black people, you know, you didn't, it was sort of defined by the oppressor.

[Bradley]

On some level.

[Sam Cedar]

You guys are slaves, we're all slaves. Or we're second class citizens or we're being discriminated against. You know, if you say, you know, poet or a plumber, you know, well, you know, if we all do poetry together, we have at least some, some comment like what, what becomes the. How do we create around what that solidarity?

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

The coalescing. You mean the coalescing factor. Yeah, I think.

[Sam Cedar]

And maybe when there's a significant percentage, people can just say, like, I can pass. Yeah, I can pay. Whatever, whatever that translates into.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

Like, I mean, listen, I think my.

[Sam Cedar]

Tax is being cut.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

So I think there are a lot of people, and that's why Trump is in office, that voted not just in their interests in terms of white supremacy, but in terms of the aspirations that whiteness provides. And I think that, I mean you will find people all the time that are not white, but aspirationally seek to be or in close proximity to that kind of power structure and that will sell out again and again to get some sort of power or to gain some sort of protection. But I think at the end of the day, you know, and maybe this is the optimist of me, maybe I'm wearing most colored glasses, but I think we all want Healthy bodies. We all want healthy communities. We all want to be safe. We all want to make a decent living. We all want to be able to afford the homes that we live in. We all want to be able to have access to education. We all want to be able to live our lives. You know, trans people want to be able to live their lives safely without harm. Most people who are undocumented workers, they want to be able to live their lives, lives. They want to be able to provide for their families. And I don't think what people want is sort of so far fetched. Now, is everyone going to be a millionaire? No. Should everyone be a millionaire?

[Bradley]

No.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

But should everyone have access to housing and to health care and to education and to job opportunities and to be represented when they turn on the TV and when they see, you know, our performed for them? You know, I think those things matter. I actually think more people want that than not. And I think that we have a lot more in common than we think. You know, whiteness and white supremacy is a problem, but so is capitalism. And capitalism is cleaning a lot of our clocks. You know, so is patriarchy. Patriarchy is cleaning a lot of our clocks. And I think that when we galvanize against those power structures, it's not just about whiteness, when it's also about wealth, and I mean uncontrollable, unsustainable kinds of wealth, when it's also about, you know, marginalizing a whole half of the population. Those are things that have to be tackled. And I do think that there is more solidarity than there is opposition. And I tell people all the time if this is encouraging to them, because I studied the abolitionist. My first book was on the abolitionist movement. The abolitionists were only 1% of the population. 1%. Like they were not all of the North. You know, they were a small, small sector. And I think all you need is a small group of committed people willing to make sacrifice, willing to find consensus, willing to find solidarity, and you can change the world over. The abolitionists did it. And I don't think we necessarily need, you know, you know, everyone to be in agreement in order to do this work. We need committed people. We need people willing to make sacrifice and people willing to work together.

[Sam Cedar]

Kelly Carter Jackson Associate professor of Africana Studies at Wellesley College Author the book is We Refuse A Forceful History of Black Resistance. We'll put a link to that majority. FM thanks so much for your time today. Really.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

Thank you.

[Emma Viglen]

Thank you.

[Sam Cedar]

Should we start with Jordan Peterson?

[Emma Viglen]

I think so.

[Sam Cedar]

Now you will Notice that the YouTube of this is titled Jordan Peterson vs 28 Atheist. When it was first released, it was not titled that. It was titled Christian One Christian vs 20 Atheists. Now I'm trying to think like what was mine called? Like progressive or something like that.

[Bradley]

Right versus Conservatives.

[Sam Cedar]

Progressive versus Conservative. That's the way they do it.

[Emma Viglen]

That's accurate.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah. And they, they give you, as far as I remember, like latitude. Like I think I suggested that.

[Tim Pool]

The.

[Bradley]

Top comment says the way Jubilee changed The title from one Christian verse 20 atheist featured in Jordan Peterson to Jordan Peterson verse 20 atheists after four hours is so funny.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, part of the reason why they did this is because someone pointed out that Jordan Peterson claimed that he's not Christian in the video we're about to play that part.

[Emma Viglen]

He gets very defensive about it.

[Bradley]

This is not new for Jordan, who I suspect does not believe in God. Like the people in your life who believe in God. And he's been lying and pretending about that and fudging that for years and years, even though it's been.

[Sam Cedar]

Has he said that? He doesn't.

[Bradley]

He's always did this thing about what do you mean by believe in God and what do you mean by Christian and all that stuff. Oh, do I have some relationship to the infinite? He's been doing this the entire time.

[Sam Cedar]

What is.

[Bradley]

He's lying about his actual beliefs.

[Danny]

But.

[Sam Cedar]

But I don't even understand. Like, I mean, it's honestly like this whole thing feels like Jordan Peterson was kidnapped and dropped into this circle and made to debate these people. That's not how it works. I've done one these.

[Bradley]

You could decline this if you wanted to.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, no, I was totally my option as to whether to do this. And in fact, not only was it my option to do this, I actually had to go somewhere to do it. They did not all show up.

[Emma Viglen]

But you understand Jordan has no choice anymore because of what's been taken from him. You know, his respectability, his professional qualifications, professional practice. So he has no choice. Like he is in a prison of wokenesses making. And so he has to do these media.

[Sam Cedar]

I am forced into this also.

[Bradley]

Russell Brand is Christian now. Joe Rogan looks like he's church curious. So it's getting a bit of a bit more crowded in the I kind of believe in God department.

[Emma Viglen]

All right, prison labor.

[Sam Cedar]

Here's Jordan Peterson. And this is. Which one is this? Is this the.

[Emma Viglen]

This is the first one, I guess. Yeah, this part. And then. Yeah, we'll play two of these.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Danny]

I'm so do you believe in the All Knowing all powerful, all good notion of God.

[Jordan Peterson]

What do you mean by believe?

[Danny]

Do you think it to be true?

[Jordan Peterson]

That's the circular definition. What do you mean believe?

[Danny]

How is that circular?

[Jordan Peterson]

Because you added no content to the answer by substituting the word true and believe.

[Danny]

I said you think it to be true.

[Jordan Peterson]

All right, so if you believe something, you stake your life on it.

[Danny]

What do you mean by that?

[Jordan Peterson]

You live for it.

[Sam Cedar]

Okay, can you pause it?

[Emma Viglen]

I'm sorry. So this is a really interesting rhetorical trick I've heard some conservatives deploy in relation to Donald Trump, where it's like. Actually, I heard Anna Kasparian say this on tyt. If you are a. If you think Donald Trump is a fascist, then wouldn't that necessitate hate, basically advocating for his assassination? Where did we get to that? Logical leap. Like, it's like when you're in this kind of trap where you can't necessarily get out of it, so you have to straw man the opponent as basically being hysterical. Right. Or make it. Make the point to entry.

[Sam Cedar]

What do you mean by strongman?

[Bradley]

Yeah, we've all heard of the Gish gallop, which is rhetorical technique in which a person in the bait attempts to overwhelm an opponent by presenting an excessive number of armor arguments without regard for their extra strength. This is the sort of inverse of that.

[Sam Cedar]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What do you mean by inverse?

[Bradley]

What's that? What Sam is doing there is what I'm gonna coin the pedantry prance, which is that.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, you just keep.

[Bradley]

You just keep taking issue with.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, by issue. What do you mean by issue? Wait, wait, young man, you answer me. What do you mean by issue?

[Bradley]

Need to agree on terms.

[Sam Cedar]

What do you mean by issue? Issue. I don't have to agree with anything you say. This is not about you bullying me into agreeing with you. You don't even know what the word issue means.

[Bradley]

I just mean, like, you take exception to.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, okay, so issue means exception. Like, then what does exception mean?

[Bradley]

You know, for instance, the word belief.

[Sam Cedar]

Is it an exception or is it an issue?

[Emma Viglen]

All you.

[Sam Cedar]

You did was change the word.

[Bradley]

This pedantry. Prance.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, prance. Really? What do you mean by prance? Are we prancing right now? Go dancing around. Dancing around in a frivolous manner. So why is there two words? Why don't we just say prancing around? This is the problem. You're dismissed.

[Danny]

What do you mean by that?

[Jordan Peterson]

You live for it and you die for it. That's what I mean by that. It isn't something that you say. It isn't something that's associated with logical consistency. It's not declarative. It's not propositional. It's not a figment of your imagination. It's the presupposition of your attention and your action. And you're either fragmented, in which case you worship multiple gods, or there's some unity at the bottom of it that makes you an unstoppable force.

[Danny]

Okay, so you're saying that you don't believe something if you wouldn't die for it?

[Jordan Peterson]

Not really, no. Okay, so how would you define belief? Something you say.

[Danny]

Okay, so I explain. Like, I could believe it is the case that this pen exists, but if someone, like, threatened my life, right. I would lie in order to be able to save my life, right? Like, I. I think you would do that too. You wouldn't lie to save your life.

[Jordan Peterson]

Don't be so sure.

[Interviewer]

You.

[Danny]

You wouldn't lie to save your life.

[Sam Cedar]

Don't be so sure. Tell me about this pen exists. Tell me. Tell me if this pen exists and try. Shoot me now. Shoot me now.

[Bradley]

I'm.

[Sam Cedar]

Shoot me. Kill me. Kill me. Shoot me now dead with the pen.

[Bradley]

He has no thought of where he's.

[Sam Cedar]

Going, so stick it into my eye.

[Bradley]

He's back to the corner where under no circumstances can he utter an untruth.

[Sam Cedar]

He just. He so desperately didn't want to answer the question. Do you believe in an all power? Like, he couldn't even go, this is a gotcha question. What is belief? What is God? What is everything? What is pen? What do you mean, pen?

[Emma Viglen]

So he. Yeah, right. So he catches him here, and this is where Jordan has to get defensive about, do you know anything about me?

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, yes.

[Bradley]

Yes.

[Sam Cedar]

This is. This is a debate on ideas. But first, I hope you're familiar with my cv.

[Emma Viglen]

He's doing a great job, but he should have been like, what do you mean by no.

[Danny]

This pen exists, but if someone, like, threatened my life, right. I would lie in order to be able to save my life, right? Like, I think you would do that too. You wouldn't lie to be so sure. You wouldn't lie me to save your life.

[Jordan Peterson]

How much do you know about me?

[Sam Cedar]

Hold on. Go back. Go back. Please go back. Go back. I want to hear that again. Don't be so sure. I think you would do that too.

[Danny]

You wouldn't lie to save your life.

[Jordan Peterson]

Don't be so sure.

[Interviewer]

You.

[Danny]

You wouldn't lie to save your life.

[Jordan Peterson]

How much do you know about me? I didn't lie to save my career. I didn't lie to save my clinical practice.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, pause it, pause it for a second. His career, like, which career has been more successful for him, right?

[Emma Viglen]

I mean, honestly, his practice or his media personality?

[Sam Cedar]

I mean, honestly.

[Bradley]

And he insisted on lies. That's why he lost his professional credentials in Canada. He insisted on calling Elliot Page's doctors criminal butchers, which is just a.

[Sam Cedar]

What does butcher mean exactly? What does criminal, criminal mean?

[Bradley]

Right. It turns out none of the things that. And the, what was it the Royal Psychiatrists of Montreal or whatever said you need, we're going to give you every opportunity to go back on this. And he said, I'd rather just feed the hogs on right wing media.

[Emma Viglen]

Right. Because of the cash associated with it.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, what does cash mean? Oh, no, listen, bucko, you don't know. Go ahead, please. Take a look.

[Emma Viglen]

I would die for my cash. That's how much I believe, believe in it.

[Jordan Peterson]

I didn't lie to save my clinical practice.

[Danny]

Would you lie to, like, save your children, your mom, your dad?

[Jordan Peterson]

I don't think lying would save them.

[Sam Cedar]

Wait a second. The guy set up a hypothetical about somebody coming in saying, is this a pen? And if the guy says it's a pen, they're going to kill him. And now Peterson has now changed the hypothetical in such a way that lying wouldn't help that. Like, but then why would he address the fact that he wouldn't lie in other circumstances?

[Emma Viglen]

But this guy comes up with a good response to it too, because he catches him and it gives him a scenario in which lying could save his family.

[Bradley]

A pretty famously obvious scenario to Europe. One in America. Be like maybe escape slaves. Would you? Would you?

[Sam Cedar]

Or what about your money or your life? Yeah, well, I'm not sure that you would take the money and then kill me. So I, in this hypothetical, I can see into your brain, into the brain of the person who's hypothetically there.

[Jordan Peterson]

That.

[Danny]

Lying could save something.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah.

[Jordan Peterson]

And if you're steeped in sin, you're likely to live in circumstances like that.

[Danny]

I'll give you an example. If you're like in like Nazi Germany and it is the case that there's like Jewish people in your attic and you trying to protect them, would you lie to like, the Nazis?

[Jordan Peterson]

I would have done everything I bloody well could so I wouldn't be in that situation.

[Emma Viglen]

Pause it. I'm sorry, but that is a pretty insane thing that he just said. He said that he basically, in a roundabout way, blamed people who were captured by the Nazis. For their own behavior. I wouldn't be.

[Sam Cedar]

No, no. He blamed the people.

[Emma Viglen]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

Who didn't anticipate that. The people who tried to hide Anne Frank. They didn't have enough forethought. And I'm sorry.

[Bradley]

I can't hide your life for you because we. This. The die has been cast long ago.

[Sam Cedar]

There's nothing we can do anymore. No, the problem is that family did not emigrate to the United States beforehand. And therefore, when Dan Frank's family would show up at the house, no one would be there. I've been living. They would be able to live in the attic without anybody there. And so when the Nazis came in, they'd say, who's here? Here, no one was there. And they would go to the next house.

[Bradley]

This kid's like 24 years old.

[Emma Viglen]

I like the.

[Sam Cedar]

Stop tying me up in pretzels, you little.

[Bradley]

I know the example.

[Sam Cedar]

I know it. I know it. I. Believe me.

[Emma Viglen]

Isn't this also. Tim Pool would really appreciate this deontological answer where it's so immoral to lie. Right. But it's not. You don't have to think. It's only viewing the action as moral or immoral in and of itself and not the consequences of it.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, what does consequence mean? Yeah, yeah.

[Jordan Peterson]

Answer a hypothetical like that because I've done everything I bloody well could so I wouldn't be in that situation to begin with.

[Emma Viglen]

Yikes.

[Jordan Peterson]

It's a hypothetical and it's not.

[Sam Cedar]

Answer hypotheticals.

[Jordan Peterson]

No, I can't answer a hypothetical like that because it's. Look, because you don't play games.

[Sam Cedar]

Yes.

[Jordan Peterson]

If you present me with an intractable moral choice that's stripped of context and you back me into a corner. You're playing game. I just told you I would do everything that I could to make sure that I'm never in that situation. By the time you've got there, you've made so many mistakes that there's nothing.

[Bradley]

I would just grind my way out of the room.

[Sam Cedar]

First off, you should not have voted for Hitler.

[Emma Viglen]

Yeah, that's.

[Sam Cedar]

That's number one.

[Bradley]

Transcendent.

[Sam Cedar]

Number two, you should not make the people think that you might be willing to hide Anne Frank. That's why they come. If you leave milk out for a kitty cat, it's gonna come back.

[Jordan Peterson]

And you can do that.

[Danny]

Isn't a sin being born in Nazi Germany and trying to protect people that you care about? Like, there could be a Jewish friend that you have and you want to protect them.

[Jordan Peterson]

I think you should have them.

[Sam Cedar]

Yes. There's no Way I would have a Jew as a friend. I would never do that.

[Jordan Peterson]

I would never.

[Sam Cedar]

Because that is what I'm saying. I would have done everything possible before that moment. And by not having any Jewish friends, by appearing somewhat hostile to the Jews. And Frank's family would have never come. I rest my case. Move on, bucko.

[Danny]

Because. Are you like uncomfortable with me asking this question? It's just a basic hypothetical. Like I could ask you.

[Jordan Peterson]

It's just a basic hypothetical where you're like, Jews, lives at stake in Nazi Germany. That's just a basic.

[Danny]

Obviously you would lie in that scenario to save their life. But you're like not trying to answer this question.

[Jordan Peterson]

What's. For some reason I just told you.

[Danny]

Why are you anti fascist?

[Jordan Peterson]

Why are you asking that?

[Danny]

I was asking, just clarifying. But like, okay, again, you're not answering this hypothetical because you know.

[Bradley]

Well, he asked that because you said you wouldn't do anything in Nazi Germany.

[Emma Viglen]

And you also seemingly.

[Sam Cedar]

No, I would have. I would. If I was an action now. Okay, there you go. You go. If I lived at that time, I would have prevented Hitler's rise to power. That's what I'm saying. So I would have never had to hide. And Frank, because I would have prevented all of World War II from happening.

[Jordan Peterson]

You asking now?

[Danny]

I was asking, just clarifying. But like, okay, again, you're not answering this hypothetical because you know, it shows that you clearly would lie to answering.

[Jordan Peterson]

It in a acceptable.

[Danny]

Obviously because I care about truth, I.

[Jordan Peterson]

Wouldn'T be in that scenario, obviously.

[Danny]

Right, Logically. Because that already happened. Like, that's in the past. You don't have a time to travel device. We're bringing this logical hypothetical up to show you that in some circumstances that do happen within the real world, you would lie to save people's lives. So your definition of truth isn't actually how we're typically using it. So what you're trying to do is you're trying to muddy the waters. When I ask you, like, do you believe this? Do you think this to be true?

[Bradley]

We could probably cut it there because he eventually is like, okay, fine.

[Emma Viglen]

Like, well, they run out of time, basically.

[Sam Cedar]

Should we get to that?

[Bradley]

Or we can just say that he what is what?

[Sam Cedar]

So what is. What does he say Fine too. I believe in God.

[Bradley]

I would know. He says that I would tell a lie and then they move on.

[Sam Cedar]

They don't mean you never get back to the original point. Do you believe in God?

[Emma Viglen]

It's only like, like 30 more seconds.

[Sam Cedar]

I just don't Understand how it got like, who set this up? Did nobody tell? Honestly, this whole thing is like, wait a second, one second, I'm in ihop having a meal with my daughter and all of a sudden there's 20 atheists around me. All I asked for was the bill. And then all of a sudden everyone's peppering me with questions. What's going on here?

[Danny]

So you don't actually have to answer the questions. And plenty of Christians don't like that because they clearly see that you don't really like, want to be associated with, with pushing.

[Jordan Peterson]

Imagine that I was in a situation where the best I could do as a consequence of my previous mistakes was to tell the least amount of lie I could manage. But that would likely indicate that I had made all sorts of catastrophic, catastrophic errors on my way there.

[Danny]

So saying would lie to save someone's life. So again, you do believe it to be true in that circumstance, even though you like lied in that scenario.

[Jordan Peterson]

So context that I put it in.

[Danny]

You were not willing to die for. We're not willing to let other people die for it. So that's not what you see to be true then seemingly.

[Jordan Peterson]

You'Re doing exactly what I said you were doing at the beginning of the conversation. You're generating an impossible restricted hypothetical with no precursors to back me into a.

[Tim Pool]

How's it possible?

[Danny]

Is there something contradictory about it? Nice to meet you.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, nice to meet you.

[Emma Viglen]

Yeah. He's seething. It's not, not a hypothetical if it has happened in, in history, let alone in the past hundred years, but it's definitionally not hypothetical.

[Sam Cedar]

I'm sorry, like if, if something to qualify as something you believe in is something you would die for. Has no one ever questioned Jordan Peterson beliefs because he's still alive. Like, I don't understand. Are there no circumstances like you would die for. Why didn't you, why didn't he attempt to kill or be killed when he was fired? I believe this is the right thing to do and I'm going to kill myself if I have to. If I am beholden to completely made up one rules about identifying people's pronouns, I'm going to kill myself because I disagree with it.

[Bradley]

Self immolation.

[Sam Cedar]

I don't believe in using the pronoun that people choose to have used and so I will die on that hill. Literally. I mean, I just.

[Bradley]

But again, it's all because you can't just say, yes, I, I believe in God. He has to say, what do you mean by believe?

[Sam Cedar]

What do you mean by God? Or say, no, I don't believe in God.

[Bradley]

Why then he stopped selling out tours.

[Tim Pool]

Why?

[Emma Viglen]

Oh, okay.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, that's why.

[Emma Viglen]

Why? But why would he stop selling out tours?

[Bradley]

Because the people that go are Christians.

[Emma Viglen]

Oh yes. But then why not go full. Go full Russell Brown?

[Sam Cedar]

Tell a lie, young lady.

[Bradley]

Because fundamentally he's, he condescends to those same thing as Ben Shapiro. Like they, he'll feed the slop out but he's not going to eat it himself.

[Emma Viglen]

And I love, like, it's just, it's a really good hallmark of like what conservative morality is or like what their ethics are, even if it's outside of religion where they claim it's all like their individual virtue as they perceive it. And there's always holes in it. But like he believe. He, he really. I shouldn't use the word belief because then I would have to die.

[Bradley]

What do you mean by that too right now.

[Emma Viglen]

Right. But it's always just like, like, like I, my principles, like my actions in and of themselves are moral. And then when you get a little bit complicated about it, they can't even apply their own analysis to real life situations. That would be a hypothetical.

[Sam Cedar]

This clip is the most bizarre one because it's clear that everyone there was under the impression they were going to debate a Christian.

[Emma Viglen]

Yes, yes.

[Sam Cedar]

For the first four hours that these, this video was up, it said Christian versus 20 atheists now. And also like, I don't know when they recorded this, I know the lag time on mine was like five or six weeks. Right? I mean it was like the end of January and it came out like in like the first week or so of March. And why would, what is it about Jordan Peterson that he would have a debate with atheists about if he wasn't?

[Bradley]

If you can't identify him as anything.

[Sam Cedar]

Other than Jordan Peterson, I guess you could just say believer in God versus 20 atheists.

[Bradley]

But he would take exception of that. What do you mean by believe in God?

[Emma Viglen]

Then why agree to. This is the.

[Sam Cedar]

Well that's just strange. That's why. And this poor kid who's debating him and Peterson like basically shows up and go, oh no, I've actually just been teleported here. I'm not. I mean it's almost like Freaky Friday where, where, yeah, where Jordan Peterson shows up, but it's just his body and it's actually some other person. I've been body swapped with some body swap body. Sweet. I didn't know about this. I didn't prepare for this at all. I'm only seven. Good.

[Interviewer]

Danny, nice to meet you.

[Jordan Peterson]

What's your name?

[Interviewer]

Danny. Danny, you're saying atheists worship things or people or places, whatever. Can you be very clear about your definition of worship again?

[Jordan Peterson]

Attend to, prioritize and sacrifice for.

[Interviewer]

Okay, that's it? That's your understanding. Understanding of worship?

[Jordan Peterson]

Well, I can flesh it out, but that'll do for the time we have.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Do Catholics attend to Mary?

[Jordan Peterson]

Oh, yes.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so do they fit that description of worship?

[Jordan Peterson]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

So you would say Catholics and other people that revere Mary, like the Eastern Orthodox tradition, worship Mary.

[Jordan Peterson]

Well, they might not put her in the highest, but you would put it that way.

[Interviewer]

No, you just said it. Now you're taking it back.

[Jordan Peterson]

You're still a higher hierarchy.

[Interviewer]

Okay, there's a hierarchy, but in.

[Jordan Peterson]

Within, there's something at the top.

[Interviewer]

All right, you can worship.

[Jordan Peterson]

Mary is quite a ways up the hierarchy, but not at the top.

[Interviewer]

Let's go over your definition of worship again. What's your definition of worship?

[Jordan Peterson]

Attend to, attend to, do prioritize.

[Interviewer]

Do Catholics sacrifice for what do Catholics attend to? Do they prioritize Mary over all other human beings?

[Jordan Peterson]

No, I didn't say overall. Get out. I didn't add that to my.

[Interviewer]

You understand.

[Jordan Peterson]

I said there was a hierarchy as well.

[Interviewer]

You attended.

[Jordan Peterson]

So you can attend to something trivially or you can attend to it deeply.

[Interviewer]

Now you're adding stuff to the definition.

[Jordan Peterson]

But your original hierarchy part at the beginning. Are you familiar and understand it.

[Interviewer]

Are you familiar with the Immaculate Conception?

[Jordan Peterson]

Why is that relevant?

[Interviewer]

Because you go to a Catholic church.

[Danny]

Don't.

[Interviewer]

You've attended recently? You're interested in Catholicism, aren't you?

[Sam Cedar]

Sure.

[Emma Viglen]

All right.

[Interviewer]

Are you familiar with their doctrines?

[Jordan Peterson]

Somewhat.

[Interviewer]

Okay, you're. You're familiar.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

How do they regard.

[Interviewer]

How they regard Mary?

[Jordan Peterson]

Why are you asking me?

[Interviewer]

Because you're a Christian.

[Jordan Peterson]

You say that. I haven't claimed that.

[Interviewer]

Oh, what is this? Is this Christians versus Atheists?

[Jordan Peterson]

I don't know.

[Interviewer]

You don't know where you are right now?

[Jordan Peterson]

Don't be a smart ass. Well, either you're a Christian or you're not. If you're a smart ass, either you're.

[Interviewer]

A Christian or you're not. Which one is it?

[Jordan Peterson]

I could be either of them, but I don't have to tell you.

[Interviewer]

You don't have to tell me. I was under the impression I was invited to talk to a Christian. Am I not talking to a Christian?

[Jordan Peterson]

No, you were invited to.

[Interviewer]

I think everyone should look at the title of the YouTube channel. You're probably in the wrong YouTube video.

[Jordan Peterson]

You're really quite something, you are. Aren't I?

[Interviewer]

But you're really quite nothing.

[Jordan Peterson]

Right.

[Interviewer]

You're not a Christian.

[Sam Cedar]

I'm done with him.

[Bradley]

Bravo on the quick wit on that kid to turn that phrase around on him. Oh my goodness, you're really quite nothing, aren't you?

[Sam Cedar]

I just don't understand like what, like what was it he didn't want to. I mean, I, to be honest with you, I'm not even sure I followed what the debate was about there. And it just seemed to get short.

[Emma Viglen]

Circuited because Mary is like the mother of Jesus as opposed to Jesus who's, you know, or God who you're supposed to be worshiping at the top of the hierarchy. I think is maybe what he was alluding to.

[Sam Cedar]

But I think the point is, is that Peterson is making an argument that atheists are also worship a God. It's just they don't refer to it as a God.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

Because they have some guiding principle. But it, I'm just guessing. I mean, I also think that's sort of like what if, if anything, you worship is a God. In that instance, the really has to do with what he said in terms of like what Peterson himself said about prioritizing and where they sit upon like their ability to impact the world. There's a difference between a God that you think is all knowing and all controlling or has set up. I mean, different people have different theologies. But if you call everything a God, then yes, nobody's an atheist.

[Emma Viglen]

But Catholics would not say that. They would not say that they worship Mary. Right. So that's why like they may believe. Matt, you can talk about.

[Sam Cedar]

I mean, I don't know, but I.

[Emma Viglen]

Mean I did a lot of things.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, I know. Is that Nick, sir, your God.

[Bradley]

I think all he was doing was trying to get Jordan Peterson into the murky waters of the fantastical things about religion that Jordan Peterson definitely does not literally believe in in the sense that, in the common sense of the word belief. And when he, Jordan Peterson could sense that. And that's why he got really sort of leery about even being called a Christian. Because Jordan Peterson, like I said, does not believe the way that you know people, you might know who are religious, that there's a God sitting there ready to pass, pass your judgment on you, your soul when you die. He doesn't believe in that.

[Emma Viglen]

Right. Worship in Catholicism is my understanding it's supposed to just be for one God, for, for the Father, Son, the Holy Spirit. Right. And that there are, there are, there's Mary. There's, you know, John, there's saints and all that, but that you're not supposed to worship them or put them over God, which is part of what he.

[Bradley]

I mean, Catholics definitely really do love Mary. My grandma has a marriage statue down the hall. It freaks me out every time I, you know, was staying over to get up and go to the bathroom.

[Emma Viglen]

Okay, but I'm, my. I'm just trying to clarify. Just because the Internet says that you're not supposed to worship Mary. So that's just. At the very least.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, I don't know about. I mean, I have no.

[Bradley]

Well, is it worshiping her if you put a small statue of her down of the hall in front of a mirror?

[Sam Cedar]

What was the, what was his contention that, like, do we have his, like what his, his claim was? I mean, this. The bizarre thing about it is it feels like what happened is that, you know, they, they go, they, they, they. There was a little bit of back and forth in my instance. I imagine this is the same process. Like, at one point they said, do you want to debate libertarians? And I was like, well, I do that on my show.

[Emma Viglen]

And.

[Sam Cedar]

They don't seem to be terribly relevant right now. I said, I would just rather debate conservatives.

[Emma Viglen]

And.

[Sam Cedar]

They may have said, like, do you want a Democratic and Republicans? And I'm like, no, I want to, like, just. I want to talk more about specific sort of policies. I suspect maybe what happened with Peterson is they couldn't come up with with a thing that he was willing to argue and that they may have just deferred to this sort of, like, I'll talk to atheists because they're wrong. They don't realize that they're actually godly worshiping. And there was no way for the jubilee people to sort of say, like, you know, pedantic guy, you know, debates atheists.

[Bradley]

I think they explicitly told all those kids there that they were going to be debating a Christian.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, without a doubt.

[Bradley]

Yeah. And so Jordan Peterson. And that's what they labeled the video, like we said before it, and they had to change it because of this exact exchange where Jordan Peterson, out of fear of, like, being definite about anything, retreats from the label of Christian.

[Sam Cedar]

I just wanted to come in and tell these kids they didn't know what they were believing. I mean, because they weren't dying for it.

[Emma Viglen]

But isn't that such a tell? Like, this is where I don't like people's media literacy or, like, when people listen to a guy like Jordan Peterson. Honestly, I felt this way, during the Ezra Klein debate, when you're not like, basically, you're, you're, you're, you're dancing around everything or you're not specific when asked direct questions, shouldn't that set off alarm bells for anybody that, like, wants a coherent argument that's given to them? Because for me, I hear that guy go either lunatic or complete snake oil salesman. One of the two.

[Sam Cedar]

I, I'm sort of just a little bit floored by it, by, by how.

[Emma Viglen]

Sort of unprepared he was.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, I, he, I think it honestly was just like, I'm gonna come in there and the atheists don't exist, and therefore you're actually a religious believer.

[Bradley]

Me, you can't say what I am.

[Sam Cedar]

But the strangest thing is, is for him to set up this sort of like a belief is defined by whether you would die for something and not a single person in that room. I would say if you had said to him, like, do you believe in God? And they would say, no, I do not. They're all alive and they're, they're not, they're clearly alive because they don't believe in God. If they believe, believed in God and said that they didn't, then they would have to fight to the death for it to actually be a belief. I mean, by his own definition, in terms of what constitutes a belief. But I think his argument must be that if you really like something, that everybody has something that they treat as a God. But I just don't think that's even remotely the case.

[Bradley]

If you can be impressed by that, the whole, like, oh, well, you have to have some relationship with a transcendent that comes after you. That means you believe in God. Like, that is just that again, that's pedantry and semantic fudging. Whereas you talk to somebody who believes in God, they think Jesus actually was put on the cross in my family, was put on the cross, died for their sins. I don't believe any of this stuff. But that stuff literally happened. Jordan Peterson, I'd be here as curious to hear him talk about the historicity of Jesus and see where he agrees with that. I think he would probably give you an answer like this, where he's not really.

[Sam Cedar]

What do you mean by historicity?

[Bradley]

What do you mean by this? Because he doesn't want to say that because he'll stop selling tickets.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, there is, I wonder if there isn't some parallel too, between. And again, I'm, you know, who knows what Peterson was actually trying to argue here, but the Idea that Ann Coulter had a book about this at one point. Where liberals have religion, it's just called civics, and they have made government a religion.

[Bradley]

And civics is better than Christianity.

[Emma Viglen]

Civics is my religion, actually.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, but the point is, is that civics are actually sort of mutable by some form of. Of shared, you know, understanding, you know, voting, referendum, representation. Civic life can evolve in a way that is not locked off.

[Bradley]

It's a social endeavor.

[Sam Cedar]

It's a social endeavor. It. Religion, as far as I can tell.

[Emma Viglen]

Is.

[Sam Cedar]

A function of a deity having the final say on some level. And, you know, different people have different interpretations of what that deity is, and there's rivalries within the context of that. But there is no sort of deity in the context of a civic religion. There are documents, documents, There are charters and constitutions. And, you know, that may function similar to a Bible, but they can be amended by humans in a way that the Bible theoretically, you know, But I think believers don't believe can be. I think that's the point. You can have commentary, but you can't change what the Bible.

[Bradley]

What do you mean by commentary? I think this is a significant problem for Peterson. I think he's being eclipsed on the religious front by people like Russell Brand. I think his type of intellectual religiosity. I don't think people have time for it anymore. I think the sun's setting on it.

[Emma Viglen]

I mean, even Ben Shapiro, it's not religiosity, but the kind of like conservative wonkishness thing or like whatever. This veneer of intellectualism is completely out the window. And wasn't he a daily wire pickup? But also, right, Like. Like with their bankruptcy, how does that affect Jordan Peterson, or not bankruptcy, with them losing that money, how does that affect Jordan Peterson's employment? Right.

[Sam Cedar]

I also think that in terms of, like, just where the zeitgeist is, you know, theoretically, he won. Right? Like we. He was able to defeat the trans agenda and you can say the R word now. So you no longer have to make your bed because boys have been saved. It's a boy's world again.

[Bradley]

The making the bed thing is funny because ironically, the number one political streamer on the right is a guy who clearly does not make his bed and probably has a hoarding problem.

[Emma Viglen]

Right. That guy Asmongold, who I don't know anything about except that, like what, he shits himself himself or something.

[Bradley]

I don't know about that. I've seen a picture of his. I've seen a picture of his room and it doesn't appear like he likes to take out the garbage.

[Emma Viglen]

Oh, the roach that came across the screen. Yeah, yeah, that's so. But, but anyway that it's interesting that some. A guy like that would be appealing to the right in this way. I don't know. I don't understand this twitch streamer space anymore.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, there's Jordan Peterson. I don't know if we'll get. We got to dig into more of it. Just got released yesterday. Right.

[Bradley]

I gotta say that I, I watched the whole thing and those are the two best moments. The rest is kind of, kind of why I don't run an atheist circles a little bit because a lot of the debates seem really pointless and abstruse. The only time that's fun is when they're accusing him of not actually believing God, which is the right, the right angle of attack.

[Sam Cedar]

It's such a weird one to do do because I don't associate him with like being a big like Christian forward guy.

[Bradley]

I, I don't know. All his lectures are all on the Bible stuff. I think that's. He gained a big audience doing that.

[Emma Viglen]

There's always ancient truths. Truths. Right. Like that's what he's always talking about.

[Bradley]

Adam and Eve.

[Sam Cedar]

Well.

[Emma Viglen]

Oh yes.

[Sam Cedar]

You remember that guy, Milo Yannianopoulos? We haven't heard much from him. He was drummed out of the conservative movement for a while because it turned out that he was gay and married to a man and they were looking for a way to get him out. And then he was like. He was basically sort of espousing that libertarian view that pedophilia is really just sort of a. Is a social construction. I mean, it is, but it's not necessarily one that we should probably get rid of. But Yannianopoulos is on with Tim Pool. And who's this guy?

[Bradley]

This is Nick Ox. He is the. For the founder of the Proud Boys Hawaii chapter.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, nice. Excuse me. Formally known as the Proud Boys. Yes, right, the not so Proud Boys. The Nazi Proud Boys Hawaii. Not so Proud Boys.

[Bradley]

Surf, you loser.

[Emma Viglen]

Yeah, right. How could you be unhappy and like angry in Hawaii?

[Sam Cedar]

Many of you know the backstory of, of Tim Pool's recent scandal where it turned out he was getting millions upon millions, billions of dollars from a company known as Tenant Media, which was a front group for, or a cutout, I guess, as they say, for Russian intelligence. And which is not to say that Tim was told what to say, but rather that they enjoyed his commentary enough to support it beyond a typical membership level.

[Bradley]

And.

[Sam Cedar]

But here is this exchange, which is pretty funny because, you know, Tim wasn't the only person who got snowed by this. Dave Rubin did, too, and that guy Benny Johnson. They all made a ton of money, like just an enormous amount of money from the Russians unknowingly because they didn't do due diligence per se, as to where they were getting all this money. Money. But this happened.

[Bradley]

And just a content warning, if you're listening at work, this is Milo. So you know the score this direction.

[Sam Cedar]

What we have is, is an indicator in USAID that establishes $38 billion mostly being used for the most ridiculous things you've ever heard of it. It's all transsexual theater in South America. No, that's not just one thing. It's, it's all that. Okay, cool. Not, not too surprising. This is connected to US and foreign, foreign influence. My question is how much money total of our entitlements is not just the, the classic welfare in the form of, say, food stamps, but grant money for just the most corrupt and ridiculous transsexual theater in regular America, not just South America. Right. We need to find out what this final number is, because it's everything usa, the National Park Service. One second. I just, we have to address the level of ignorance that was in there. When he says regular America, he's talking to the United about the United States of America, the regular America. That's honestly, like, I think like says the Hawaiian proud boy, the punchline of a joke in the past. But he's saying now we need to look into entitlements, which traditionally people have referred to as Social Security and Medicare. And he's now claiming that all that money is actually going to transsexual dance parties in regular America. This is a person who, honestly, I think like in any other context, people would alert their relative, this person's relatives, and said, like, you've got to come and pick this guy up.

[Bradley]

Somebody watching this, having an episode.

[Emma Viglen]

So I mean, by definition, Social Security and Medicare in its own pool of money and can't go to the kinds of things that he's talking about. This is just like basic understanding, supposedly.

[Bradley]

Handout.

[Emma Viglen]

Relatedly, from earlier this morning, Trump has signed an executive order pausing enforcement of the Foreign Corrupt Practices act, which forbids companies in the United States from bribing foreign officials. So I don't know, I guess this is not really about rooting out out corruption in the federal government. I mean, I, I what's rooting out.

[Sam Cedar]

Corruption in the federal government and transferring it over to corruption in foreign governments.

[Emma Viglen]

Okay.

[Kelly Carter Jackson]

All right.

[Emma Viglen]

Just making sure I. I got this straight.

[Sam Cedar]

Actual theater in regular America, not just South America. Right. We need to find out what this final number is because it's everything I usa the National Park Service.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

I have. I have a question.

[Tim Pool]

Never gonna. We're never gonna get there.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

I have. I have billions a year. I have a question for. For you and for everybody who's listening or I should say I have.

[Emma Viglen]

Have a.

[Sam Cedar]

A tip.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

I suppose we know for a fact there are many popular liberal podcasts that run nonprofits or have nonprofits buying ads.

[Tim Pool]

Or any popular liberal pocket.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Whatever you want to call it, we're.

[Sam Cedar]

Going to find out.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Remember, David, there's no popular. So let me. This, this point I'm making is that.

[Sam Cedar]

Let me just take this moment to say that our membership and our subscriber numbers did not go down after the election. But go ahead. Some stood add There are any popular liberal pocket.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Whatever you want to call it, we're.

[Sam Cedar]

Going to find out. There's no popular.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Let me. This, this point I'm making is that who is funding these shows and how are they being propped up? 1. Obviously YouTube is propping them up despite the fact they're clearly not popular, as we just saw the results of the election. However, we do know that many of them sell ad space to powerful nonprofits. I believe that.

[Sam Cedar]

I doubt that Tim is talking about us, even though I brought this up with him and he was completely embarrassed by it. But you've heard our roster of ads today. One was an organization in Rhode island that hires refugees to make granola, and the other was. What was it? A cleaning product.

[Emma Viglen]

I mean, give. Is give directly what he's referring to or. Well, I mean, we also had that Biden Harris sponsorship where a secret one.

[Bradley]

By a crusading journalist.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

I mean, as we just saw, there was all of the election. However, we do know that many of them sell ad space to powerful nonprofits. I believe that if you track the government spending through these nonprofits, you will find it goes from government to NGO into the hands of liberal pundits.

[Tim Pool]

David Pakman.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

I don't now, he might not even know. And that's the. That's the important thing. Well, no, no, let me. This is important. You can accuse him of knowing. You can accuse him of intentionally.

[Tim Pool]

My point.

[Sam Cedar]

Never pause it for a second right there. Now, the reason why Tim Watts to have that clarification is because sometimes people like Tim end up getting paid by the Russian government and don't realize it. So Just so you know, again, I also want to reiterate. We don't sell any ad space to any not for profit that is sponsored by the US government. The only one, I think is GiveWell, which is a charity navigator thing. Thing.

[Emma Viglen]

But, but, and yes, we do not sell. That was facetious earlier. Are any ad space for political campaigns or take money secretly, as Tim seemed to have done? And not just.

[Sam Cedar]

Although I take ads and run them free for that guy running against Nancy Pelosi in San Francisco.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Yes, if that. If you track the government spending through these nonprofits, you will find it goes from government to NGO into the hands of liberal pundits. David Pacman, when he might not even know. And that's the. That's the important thing. Oh, yeah, well, no, no, let me.

[Sam Cedar]

This is important.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

You can accuse him of knowing. You can accuse him of intentionally.

[Tim Pool]

I would never accuse David Pakman of knowing anything.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Sure, there very well may be that was coming. There very well may be.

[Sam Cedar]

What happened with those guys? Did Pacman and Mila have Milo on recently and embarrass him?

[Bradley]

It's just Pacman Pakman's thing after the election that they're talking about knowing.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

You can accuse.

[Tim Pool]

I would never accuse David Pakman of knowing anything.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Sure, there very well may be that was coming. There very well may be individuals who. Their ad person comes to them and says, this NGO wants to spend $100,000 in ads on your show and they.

[Tim Pool]

Say you're not doing that conservative thing, giving too much credit.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

No, I'm saying in general, big picture.

[Tim Pool]

No, exactly. Where the money's coming from. Dave Rubin knew where the money was coming from when it was coming from Russia.

[Jordan Peterson]

He used it to buy his children.

[Tim Pool]

False.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

And you, and you, you know, that ropes me into it. And I can, I can verify it's 100 false. All right. Completely untrue. And this is, this is, this is important big picture stuff because USAID is funneling money into NGOs.

[Tim Pool]

Irresponsible in the extreme, to the point. Point of ludicrous negligence. To not know where hundreds of thousands of dollars are coming from to not even ask.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, pause it for one second. Now, let me explain to you what's going on here. Milo does not realize that Tim Pool was roped into this. And when Tim says, you're roping me into this now, Milo, still it doesn't register. Now, I just want to make this clear just so that Tim has some cover in this conversation. Milo is saying it is the height of irresponsible responsibility to not know where hundreds of thousands of dollars are coming from. Just to be clear, Tim got over a several million dollars. So maybe once you cross the threshold.

[Emma Viglen]

Right.

[Sam Cedar]

No responsibility left, you have less responsibility because it's no longer several hundred thousand.

[Emma Viglen]

It's called the responsibility donut hole.

[Sam Cedar]

Exactly.

[Tim Pool]

Responsible in the extreme, to the point that of ludicrous negligence. To not know where hundreds of thousands of dollars are coming from, to not even ask.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

And that's not the story at all. So if you know what you're talking about, maybe it sounds smarter. All right, well, clearly as the story has already been reported, you haven't read any of it, which involves me, which I find particularly insulting. Is that certainly, Dave, I, as well as Benny, did ridiculous due diligence in digging and trying to figure out what the source of the. Of the revenue was beyond your typical answer deal. So when I get an ad sales person who comes for a second, this.

[Sam Cedar]

Ridiculous due diligence involved demanding to see a colored PDF, one page CV of Mr. Edward Gregorian.

[Bradley]

Yeah, we know it's ridiculous. Why we're ridiculing you about it.

[Emma Viglen]

Yeah, I think he made ridiculous the other way. So is he.

[Sam Cedar]

It's ridiculous.

[Emma Viglen]

Is Milo trolling? Does he know?

[Sam Cedar]

So Milo doesn't know.

[Emma Viglen]

I don't know.

[Sam Cedar]

Tim is getting offended.

[Emma Viglen]

He's a troll. He's. He might. I mean, he's got those glasses on. He could be messing with him.

[Sam Cedar]

I don't.

[Emma Viglen]

I'm not ruling it out. I'm not.

[Sam Cedar]

All right, all right, let's go back a little bit because I want to watch Tim get very, very angry. Tim thinks that Milo knows, but I'm pretty sure that Milo.

[Emma Viglen]

I think you're probably right. I'm just saying it's a.

[Tim Pool]

It's possible dream to the point of. Of ludicrous negligence to not know where hundreds of thousands of dollars are coming from, to not even ask.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

And that's not the story at all. So if you knew what you're talking about, maybe it sounds smarter. All right, but clearly as the story has already been reported, you haven't read any of it, which involves me, which I find particularly insulting. Is that certainly, Dave, I, as well as Benny, did ridiculous due diligence in digging and trying to figure out what the source of the revenue was beyond your typical ad deal. So when I get an ad sales person who comes to me and says, this company, I didn't want.

[Tim Pool]

I didn't remember that you were involved in that.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

This company wants to sell. They want to buy a hundred thousand over this amount of time, no one anywhere in media says, tell me who there's their investors are. Get me on the phone with him. And when this stuff went down, Dave Benny I and many others said, we want to know what this is all about. Who is this involved with? And when you get a prominent conservative.

[Sam Cedar]

We'Ve actually had sponsors who we found out that they had production facilities in the west bank and cut them off.

[Emma Viglen]

Right. Right.

[Sam Cedar]

Now maybe that's different from who the investors are.

[Emma Viglen]

And even then wasn't. Didn't that go through a third party person with ads? Right.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, there's our broker came to us and said we were selling ads for them. And then we found out that they were doing business in the West Bank. And I went back to the broker.

[Emma Viglen]

I'm like, and it would be a little different if that company, which will go unnamed, was coming to us directly via maybe, I don't know, Bradley and saying, we're going to give you multiple millions of dollars and you don't necessarily need to do an ad read. This is just to subsidize your shipping because we love it so much.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, I wouldn't be suspicious of that at all. People do that every day.

[Bradley]

Yes.

[Sam Cedar]

Total normal thing. A couple million dollars and oh, you're just going to replay the show on your platform. Oh, okay.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

And when this stuff went down, Dave Benny I and many others said, we want to know what this is all about. Who is this involved with? And when you get a prominent conservative personality based at a Nashville with an American company and says, here's the investors, they're going to talk to you explain it. Here's the proof we go, okay, well, like a prominent conservative personality is running a company out of national.

[Tim Pool]

Lauren Chen.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Lauren Chen.

[Tim Pool]

Was she a prominent personnel?

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Certainly was. Hundreds of thousands of followers on the Blaze. Everybody knew she was and she had a story. And so we did some before this. And so this is.

[Sam Cedar]

You. This is the pain.

[Tim Pool]

Remember, you were.

[Sam Cedar]

Keep, keep them, keep them up there and go back a little bit because, you know, this is where Milo backs off. Doesn't realize that Tim was going to be so sensitive about it. But we actually have a tape from Edward Gregorian, who's talking to Tim. We just have the Gregorian side. Let's just roll that tip. Hello, Is this team Team? It's Edward Gregorian. I'm here. Just wanted to who call and tell you that the money is absolutely fine. Don't worry about the thing. I'm from Belgium, but if my accent sounds strange, it's because I moved around A lot as a kid. Army brat.

[Bradley]

I'm the kind of person who, when a Blaze flunky tells me they have 600 or six figure offers for me, I'm like, say no more, Lauren.

[Sam Cedar]

But Tim, I commend you for all the great work you're doing in investigating dating me. But I have to go now. Bye. Bye. Great outgoing voice message you have.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Go. Okay, well, like a prominent conservative personality is running a company.

[Tim Pool]

Lauren Chen.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Lauren Chen.

[Tim Pool]

Was she a prominent personality?

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Hundreds of thousands of followers on the Blaze. Everybody knew she was and she had a story. And so we did something. And so this is.

[Tim Pool]

I didn't remember you. This is the big Remember you were a victim of that. So casting aspersions. If. If that was your impression.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

So to imply.

[Tim Pool]

Remember. I didn't remember you were a victim of that, but I.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Right now. Now let's go to the big picture.

[Sam Cedar]

It's interesting because Miles just changed his whole tune literally 90 seconds ago. It was beyond the height of irresponsibility to not discover where hundreds of thousands of dollars came from. And now he's saying, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were a victim of that.

[Bradley]

It's so funny.

[Sam Cedar]

He.

[Bradley]

Tim just desperately wants to do all this dumb smearing of like, oh, look at all this political USAID money. That's just like subscriptions of, you know, people who work for the political.

[Sam Cedar]

Except for Tim has this big sort of monkey on his back. And Milo just basically, yes, Tim was sort of like tiptoeing along the knife's edge. And I'm gonna do this. I'm actually going to be able to deliver this. And no one's going to remember. Remember that I am actually the flunky.

[Bradley]

Yeah. I'm a genuine article.

[Sam Cedar]

I am the genuine article of being bought and paid for. And Milo brings it up. I was a victim. Go.

[Tim Pool]

I apologize for costing aspersions. If. If that was your impression.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

So to imply.

[Tim Pool]

Remember. I didn't remember you were a victim of that, but I.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Right now, let's go to the big picture on USAID and other NGO funding. Tim looks like now certainly that affects us. Us when someone. I'll say it again. We right now have probably, I don't know, 30 advertisers who've come to us and wanted to buy ads. And we said, we're on a holding pattern right now doing negotiations. They're offering us $50,000 sometimes for one ad read. One ad read. One company says, we'll give you $50,000, promote our company. Do we say I want the CEO on the phone. I want to know who funded them. I want to know where they're.

[Sam Cedar]

I just want to make something clear here. This was not an ad buy. When we do an ad, it's quite clear who's paying for it. Now, if for whatever reason, hello, Tushy has a secret agenda of selling a different bidet product from their rival, but they promote their own. But they have a secret, you know, or maybe hello, Tushy buys an ad from us and they promote the bedet, but the reason why they're doing it is because they have a specific resentment against the toilet paper company and they don't want people to use toilet paper or whatever hidden agenda is that it's silly because it's laid out there. The problem with what Tim is talking about, he's comparing apples and oranges. It's one thing to have a sponsor that you think is problematic and decide we don't want it different. You know, people have different sort of like threats thresholds in which they, you know, we may not do any type of finance advertising we may not do, but we'll do seven a day advertising. Okay. Different people. This is funding that was completely hidden from the listeners and viewers of his program.

[Emma Viglen]

Yep.

[Sam Cedar]

To the tune of millions upon millions of dollars.

[Bradley]

And.

[Sam Cedar]

He never, you know, like, you never reveal like, we're getting the. This show is subsidized by Blankety. Blank, blank, blank. It was completely unclear. Now Milo seems to think it is completely irresponsible and doesn't believe that someone could actually be duped in that way. And I think that's a fair assessment. I think that's a fair position to have. But Tim is. Is arguing that's not. But the pro. The weird thing is that Tim keeps changing the category of which he's talking about.

[Emma Viglen]

Nobody said anything about advertisers, but he's talking about usaid. And I guess this is just really just a quick brief aside. I sent this Bradley, like, the Barry Weiss tweet. This is like the end goal of all of this is to make more news like Tim Pool or to make more news like the Free Press, that Barry Weiss's outfit, where she's talking about NPR and PBS funding. It's just 535 million, she says. And she's basically casting aspersions on the idea that NPR and PBS should get public funding from the government. And they're using this veneer of corruption to make this argument where the free press was literally invested in by Mark Andreessen. Andreessen Horowitz early on, what they want to do is create more and more incentive for private money to take over, to take over our media institutions. When PBS has funded by viewers like you instead they want it to like said, like funded by, you know, Palantir or something like that. What just what's, what's, what's more corrupting tax like a set small amount relative to the federal government of tax dollars that are allocated towards this kind of media or private for profit venture capital money going towards these outfits. Which would you like to decide? Because the latter is when you get Bari Weiss or you get Tim Pool.

[Bradley]

Anyway, Bari Weiss is partnered with the descendant of Henry Miller, the cattle king of California, one of the largest landowners.

[Sam Cedar]

Of the United States, also financed by Harlan Crowe, who you know, he's the guy who owns Clarence Thomas.

[Bradley]

Anyway, they're all, they're like, Rogan is in on this too with Brett Weinstein. This. All of our people who criticize us are fake because they know that they are all total sugar daddies.

[Emma Viglen]

Yep.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

One ad read, one ad read, one company says, we'll give you $50,000 promote our company. Do we say I want the CEO on the phone, I want to know who funded them. I want to know where that funding came from.

[Tim Pool]

Nobody does that. But that wasn't quite.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

And this is the point when I say about David Pack, I'm saying when we know those things happen. Take a look at where USAID was giving their money and see how much of those NGOs were buying ad reads in media because you know, they are.

[Tim Pool]

You're not going to like this, but I just, I touch to take money from somebody so obviously ludicrously insubstantial as Lauren Chen and ask more questions seems stupid to me.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Except there were questions asked.

[Tim Pool]

Well, I don't want to continue this because I'm not trying to attack you. I didn't, I didn't remember you.

[Sam Cedar]

The big picture is I didn't remember.

[Tim Pool]

You were caught up in this.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

When we, when we have 30 sponsors, do you think it's reasonable for any media company to say get their investors on the phone or do you only talk about.

[Tim Pool]

I've been interviewed once by Lauren Chen and I.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Okay, we're beyond that. I certainly the point I'm making is no company David Pakman, Kyle Kalinsky, Dave Rubin, me or otherwise is, is, is going beyond the sales rep and Kyle.

[Emma Viglen]

Is fully funded by subscription and doesn't take any advertisers and says it like every second that he can. So it's a horrible example.

[Bradley]

So the NGOs haven't been able to get in to him yet.

[Emma Viglen]

He doesn't even do what we do with hello tushy. He doesn't do any ad.

[Sam Cedar]

Look at, look at Tim Pool surrounding himself with other people to hide behind them when none of it applies. No, none of it applies. And even Milo is like how do I, how do I now navigate this thing where Tim is obviously full of excrement but I don't want to offend him and, but I also have to maintain some personal integrity in this thing.

[Bradley]

And we just change the subject. That doesn't happen on podcasts.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, we shouldn't talk about this anymore for your sake. Go ahead, Bradley.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

No company David Pakman, Kyle Kalinsky, Dave Rubin, me or otherwise is, is, is going beyond the sales rep and, and, and, and, and their, their press kit to figure out that, that USAID or any other government or any other country is funneling things into media to prop them up.

[Tim Pool]

At this size. No, that's true. At this size, that's true.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

But not a single company does. That's when, when I, I'll tell you that that absolutely is. So I bought billboards through out front media.

[Tim Pool]

I've done just like you have.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Absolutely. And never once in any of the ads that we've bought have they come to me and said we want your, your P. L and we want to know if you have any investors and we want you, we want your board of directors.

[Sam Cedar]

Nobody does it.

[Tim Pool]

Nobody's, nobody's saying that. I think you have to make room for the possibility. However, although you may have been taken in by a particular scheme that other people when, when it were, you know, went into it and were very happy not to look too deeply. I don't.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

It's not the case for Dave Rubin.

[Sam Cedar]

Why are we stopping here? This is.

[Emma Viglen]

Well. Oh, oh, oh, an ad.

[Sam Cedar]

They got the guy with the same accent.

[Bradley]

We can't really.

[Sam Cedar]

Oh, this is secretly all by like a hearing company.

[Tim Pool]

Other people went, were, you know, went into it and were very happy not to look too deeply. I don't.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

It's not the case for Dave Rubin. Well, nor Benny, nor me. You can speak of anybody else.

[Tim Pool]

Guys. I don't necessarily take the views of people who concoct Franken babies for paying, paying women to birth as a high moral standard or pejorative.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

But in this regard I can tell you no.

[Tim Pool]

I don't really take his word for anything. I don't take his word for anything for all kinds of reasons, particularly how he treated me. He's a liar. He's a liar. Sure, he's a slippery, slimy grass.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

I can say in this one, one regard that involves me, I don't, oh my God.

[Tim Pool]

Other people don't know. But you know, it's not, not an.

[Sam Cedar]

Unreasonable supposition that never, ever contemplated. It has never occurred to me for a moment that I would like to have a conversation with Milo Yannianopoulos until today at this time when I would love to go deeper into a, his understanding of Dave Rubin and also whether he actually in this moment genuinely believes that Tim Pool didn't know or is just like, I don't want to burn this bridge. I'd be very interesting to hear about that. Go ahead.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

On one regard that involves me, I.

[Tim Pool]

Don'T, I don't know that you might know that because you know things other people don't know. But you know, it's not an unreasonable supposition that they've, I think we can move on from this. But you know, it's, it's, it is no secret that a lot of bad money has gone to people on the right and on the center, right? But it's typically the case that right wing people will go and get investors rather than do advertisers, fake it till they make it and then they'll get, you know, sort of the big ticket avatars. So the way Ben Shapiro, the way Candace would get famous is they go, they get Wilkes brothers or they get some other kind of billionaire money and they buy engagement, they buy followers and they sort of propel themselves to the top of the heap and they take it till they make it. And then, and then eventually it's kind of sort of a self fulfilling prophecy right now.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Everybody does that.

[Tim Pool]

Everybody does not does that.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Well, we've never done anything like that.

[Tim Pool]

Everybody does not do that.

[Sam Cedar]

Pause it for a second. Interesting turn. Tim says, and we've been saying this about Ben Shapiro for a long time. They bought millions of dollars of Facebook ads several years ago and it propelled them. And then Tim says, everybody does that. And then says, but I didn't do it. Everybody does that. And then realizes like, whoa, wait, wait, wait, no I didn't. That's fascinating. I will say right now definitively, we have never done that. We did one ad buy for fifteen hundred dollars. Now, I've been meaning to do a second one for six years and we're going to, but we just haven't gotten around to it.

[Tim Pool]

Two people who did that, who are.

[Sam Cedar]

Go back, go back. I Want to see Tim's little turn? That's fascinating to me. Everybody does that. I didn't do it.

[Tim Pool]

Do advertisers fake it till they make it? And then they'll get, you know, sort of the big ticket avatars. So the way Ben Shapiro, the way Candace would get famous is they go, they get Wilkes brothers or they get some other kind of. Of billionaire money and they buy engagement, they buy followers, and they sort of propel themselves to the top of the heap and they fake it till they make it.

[Bradley]

And then.

[Tim Pool]

And then eventually it's kind of sort of a self fulfilling prophecy, right?

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Everybody does that.

[Tim Pool]

Everybody does not does that.

[Sam Cedar]

Well, we.

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Everybody never done anything like that.

[Tim Pool]

Everybody does not. I said two people who did that demonstrably did that, right? I didn't say everybody did that. I never did that. When I was canceled, I had the same number of followers as Ben Shapiro on everything. I was growing faster, he was growing more slowly. And 60% of his followers were fake. 100% of mine were organic. In fact, we ran things to get rid of the bots. Right. So that's one of the reasons they took me out. So I didn't say everybody did it, but those two did it. And also on the right, typically people will take startup capital and they'll invest that way and then they'll get the big advertisers that are safer. Right on the left, people will take money from pretty much anywhere and they'll. And they won't ask too many questions.

[Bradley]

All the billionaires, right?

[Milo Yiannopoulos]

Yeah, all the billionaires.

[Sam Cedar]

All the big billionaires.

[Emma Viglen]

That's.

[Sam Cedar]

Hey, Mark Cuban, stop getting into my DMs and asking to give me money, please.

[Bradley]

Reed Hastings just keeps giving me a direct deposit.

[Sam Cedar]

Everything that was.

[Emma Viglen]

That's great. I mean, Milo has some. Has some tea to spill. Wasn't he all across the. Kanye. And the.

[Bradley]

Milo blew the whistle on Kanye's dentist, basically addicting him to nitrous oxide and wanting to have him lead a campaign to legalize nitrous oxide. So dose everybody else with it too.

[Sam Cedar]

Just so you know who the Wilkes brothers are. Turns out Dan and Farris Wilkes. Their estimated net worth is, between the two of them, close to $4 billion. They sold a 70% stake in their fracking company, Fracktech for 3.5 billion in 2011. They were frackers. And they have acquired more than 670,000 acres of land in six different states. They are the nation's 12th largest landowners. There you go. I wonder why guys who are so interested in fracking would be excited to pay Ben Shapiro so much money.

[Bradley]

They love to frack free speech too.

[Sam Cedar]

There you go.

[Bradley]

Just. But it's fascinating to see Milo just state what we've all been saying about these guys though. That they are artificially subsidized by oligarchy into your. In your friends and family's brains. These idiots.

[Sam Cedar]

And it's, it's, it's a little bit different than fake it till you make it. It's not just about self confidence. It's literally where you are propped up and it becomes self fulfilling prophecy in the sense that you have been paid to have followers. You were paid followers. And then. And you know what? They used to do this with book sales too. They would push right when they probably used to.

[Emma Viglen]

I mean, these books.

[Sam Cedar]

Yeah, they push these right wing books up to the top of the charts by having institutional sales. The Heritage foundation will come in and buy, you know, 10,000 thousand books in a day and bingo, it goes right up to the, to the top of the charts. But that was fun to watch. I may even watch the rest of that.

[Tim Pool]

Well, you have to do it on.

[Bradley]

Rumble because they had to pull it down because I think Milo did something extremely racist. So they had to take it.

[Emma Viglen]

That's why that episode's not available.

[Bradley]

You can believe it. Yeah.

[Sam Cedar]

What? Seriously?

[Bradley]

Turns out Milo did something bad.

[Sam Cedar]

To get to where I want But I know somehow I'm gonna get there I wasn't looking when I just got caught between the truth and the life are finding out won't make me feel any better yeah, no.