MSTR CEO: This Bitcoin Strategy Is Breaking Wall St. | Phong Le

Summary

The Mark Moss Show – Episode Summary

Episode Title: MSTR CEO: This Bitcoin Strategy Is Breaking Wall St. | Phong Le
Date: May 13, 2026
Host: Mark Moss (iHeartPodcasts)
Guest: Phong Le, CEO of MicroStrategy
Theme:
This episode delves into how MicroStrategy is breaking down traditional finance barriers with its bold Bitcoin strategy. Mark Moss and Phong Le discuss the radical innovations in capital markets, the intricacies and risks of MicroStrategy’s digital credit products such as “Stretch,” and the company’s vision for integrating Bitcoin with global finance. The conversation includes personal perspectives on financial sovereignty, macroeconomic shifts, and how digital assets like Bitcoin are revolutionizing wealth-building and protection.

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Main Themes and Purpose

• Challenging traditional financial systems by leveraging Bitcoin as a core asset.
• Explaining MicroStrategy’s innovative approach to digital capital and credit (especially through the Stretch product).
• Exploring the risks, rewards, and dynamics of Bitcoin-backed investment instruments.
• The global importance of financial sovereignty and the real-world necessity of “sound money.”
• Vision for the future: mass adoption, integration of decentralized finance, and MicroStrategy’s long-term strategy.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Digital Credit and Yield Products: Demystifying "Stretch"

• [03:13 – 06:30] Understanding Digital Credit

  • Phong Le explains Stretch as a “digital credit” product offering 11.5% annualized yield, backed by a massive Bitcoin reserve.
  • “If you want digital equity, you can buy MSTR or other Bitcoin treasury companies. If you want digital credit, we’ve created a new space for that.” (Phong Le, 03:13)
  • The product sits between equity and debt; it's preferred equity with a stable principal and high yield.
  • Risks: The company is not obligated to repay principal or dividends in a black swan event, but the risk is mitigated by a strong balance sheet of $2.25B in cash and $60B in Bitcoin.

• Product Transparency

  • “You got to peel back the layers of the onion, but we’re pretty transparent about what’s behind it.” (Phong Le, 06:27)
  • The structure aims to be accessible, secure, and a genuine yield alternative, especially for retirees or those seeking fixed income.

• [11:39 – 14:45] Retirement and Fixed Income Use Case

  • Typical retirement planning assumes drawing down principal. Stretch enables living off the yield while retaining principal.
  • “If you can get 11.5% off the $2 million, you want to live off the $200,000 and keep the $2 million there into perpetuity so you can live to 110 if you want.” (Phong Le, 12:19)
  • Tax-efficient structure via return of capital treatment and step-up in basis at inheritance.

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2. MicroStrategy vs. Bitcoin ETFs: Leverage, Volatility, and Value

• [15:07 – 19:26] Breaking the ETF Misconception

  • Many mistake MSTR (MicroStrategy stock) for a simple ETF. In reality, MSTR has outperformed Bitcoin itself due to leverage and innovative “amplification.”
  • “If you buy an ETF, at the end of the year you have one Bitcoin minus the fees. If you buy MSTR, at the end of the year you have, every single year, more Bitcoin per share.” (Phong Le, 17:24)
  • Outperformance comes with higher volatility: MSTR has averaged 55% annual return with 60% volatility versus Bitcoin’s 38% return and 40% volatility since August 2020.

• Risks and Audience

  • “With leverage comes volatility.” (Phong Le, 18:54)
  • Investors must be prepared for amplified upside in a bull market and magnified drawdowns if Bitcoin falls.

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3. Product Development & Simplicity: From Strike to Stretch

• [26:47 – 32:25] Iterative Innovation

  • Earlier products like Strike, Strife, and Stride were more complex; market feedback drove innovation toward the simplicity of Stretch.
  • “Getting to something simple is a lot harder than getting to something complex.” (Phong Le, 28:04)
  • The goal: Stable principal and predictable yield, accessible to retail, versus earlier products which had principal volatility or complex features.

• Bull vs. Bear Market Products

  • Stretch is engineered for stability in any market—survived significant Bitcoin drawdowns maintaining near-par value.
  • Other products (e.g., Stride) offer higher yields but more volatility—better for those with longer time horizons or higher risk tolerance.

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4. Global Perspective and Personal Story: Why Financial Sovereignty Matters

• [45:26 – 50:17] Phong Le’s Family and Financial Repression
  • Phong shares his family’s experience escaping post-war Vietnam, losing all wealth and property to communist seizure.
  • “This is what happens when your government falls to a communist government... all your wealth wiped out. Gone to nothing. And so as that in 1975 still occurs around the world.” (Phong Le, 46:58)
  • Bitcoin’s role as a lifeline in unstable countries: “Bitcoin is the lifeline for people living in countries that are failing.” (Phong Le, 50:17)
• Mark and Phong discuss how Americans often overlook this need for asset sovereignty because of relative dollar trust and stability.

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5. Macro Trends, Mass Adoption, and DeFi Integration

• [60:13 – 63:42] The Future of MicroStrategy and Bitcoin

  • Next big wave: Tokenization of securities, merging decentralized and traditional finance.
  • “Imagine if 6 billion people can buy Stretch, or you can pull out your phone and tap someone’s phone and sell them one share.” (Phong Le, 60:48)
  • By 2036, Phong anticipates finance will be “fully decentralized,” Bitcoin the digital reserve asset of the world, and MicroStrategy among the largest global holders.
  • “If Bitcoin is the most important digital asset in 10, 20 years and we’re the largest holder, you can make an argument we would be the largest company in the world.” (Phong Le, 63:29)

• Market Dynamics and Rate Adjustments

  • Yield (currently 11.5% on Stretch) may change depending on market demand, Bitcoin price, and interest rates.
  • Real-time market feedback is used to set rates and manage risk.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Belief in Bitcoin:

  “If you think Bitcoin is going to fail—don’t buy Stretch, don’t buy MSTR, don’t buy Bitcoin.”
  – Phong Le, 07:20

• On Simplicity:

  “Perfection is when nothing else can be stripped away.”
  – Mark Moss, 28:02

• On Stretch's Role:

  “Stretch is the it-doesn’t-matter-market product.”
  – Phong Le, 31:43

• On the Future of Money:

  “Ten years from now, people won’t be debating, ‘Is Bitcoin good, is Bitcoin bad?’ It’ll just exist like the US dollar.”
  – Phong Le, 62:32

• On Historical Lessons:

  “The reason people own bitcoin in Iran is they don’t trust the government... It’s actually the opposite. Bitcoin is the lifeline for the people that live in countries that are failing.”
  – Phong Le, 50:17

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------------|------------------| | Introduction to Digital Credit/Stretch | 03:13 – 06:30 | | Stretch for Retirees and Fixed Income Use Case | 11:39 – 14:45 | | ETF vs. MSTR Explained (Leverage, Volatility) | 15:07 – 19:26 | | Product Evolution: From Strike to Stretch | 26:47 – 32:25 | | Global Perspective & Personal Story | 45:26 – 50:17 | | Vision: Tokenization, Mass Adoption, Future of MSTR | 60:13 – 63:42 |

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Conclusion / Takeaways

• MicroStrategy is not just “a Bitcoin ETF,” but a public company leading financial innovation through active product creation (Stretch) and Bitcoin accumulation, with leverage and new on-ramps for retail investors.
• Their approach aims simultaneously at financial inclusivity (tax-efficient, high-yield products accessible to regular people), and global asset sovereignty—especially important given ongoing instability in many countries.
• The coming era may see widespread tokenization, the fusion of traditional and decentralized finance, and MicroStrategy’s ambition to be the world’s preeminent Bitcoin holder and a global financial powerhouse.
• As Mark Moss sums up:

  “We’re in a time when there’s so much change... providing information out to the masses is more important than ever.” (64:14)

---

For deeper insight, listen to the full episode for expanded stories and detailed discussion on topics such as personal family experience, product risk management, and the future of financial markets in the age of Bitcoin.

Transcript

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[David Draper]

is going to fail. Don't buy stretch, don't buy mstr, don't buy Bitcoin.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

It seems pretty apparent to me, but a lot of people think that you're just an etf. Why would you ever trade for more than one times?

[David Draper]

There are a few reasons why. We went through iterations of strike, then strike, then stride, then stretch.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

I've talked to a lot of Bitcoin treasury people and they don't have that underlying belief in bitcoin.

[David Draper]

So that's the downside. Sort of black swan scenario is the two million dollars goes to zero. It stretched prices from a hundred dollars to Zero.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

You're on track to a million Bitcoin this year. Where do you see sort of this growth trajectory over that next decade?

[David Draper]

This is what happens when your government falls to a communist government. And what my parents didn't know is

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

what your company strategy is doing is pushing a new product. Digital credit. Yeah, digital capital. Digital credit. Some say it's the most innovative thing in the world. And a lot of people think it's either a Ponzi scheme or don't understand it all. So what would you say is the most common, misunderstood thing that you hear about?

[David Draper]

That there's a few misunderstood things. So first of all, stretch is we call it digital credit because there is a universe of credit investors, about $300 trillion actually bigger than equity investors. Right. And so if you want digital capital, you buy Bitcoin. You hold Bitcoin, Fantastic. You want a digital equity, you can buy MSTR or you could buy any variety of digital asset treasury companies. If you want digital credit, then we have created a brand new space for that. And why is it credit? Because essentially you're buying, in this particular case of preferred equity, but you get paid 11.5% annualized yield. So it looks like a credit product. So that's sort of piece on just as a baseline because people are like, what the heck is this digital credit thing that you just make this up? Well, no traditional credit. And now we've digitally transformed traditional credit on the back of Bitcoin. Second piece is people are like, is it too good to be true? Like, I love this idea. I can buy a product that has a relatively stable principle. I need 11 and a half percent. But I'm used to getting half a percent. I'm used to getting three and a half percent. And so is there, am I taking on outsized risk to get the 11.5%? Because with reward you usually have to have risk. You are taking out more risk. Right. And let's be clear, you're still buying a, in a capital stack, a preferred equity, sometimes people call it a hybrid sip, sits between common equity and debt. And so you're buying something that's preferred equity, which means that we take in, we take in the capital and we, the company, do not have a obligation to pay the capital back. So the risk is that you're buying into an instrument that the company, the board, Mike and I have the discretion, one, not to pay the 11.5% and two, not to pay back the principal. Why would you do that? Why would you take on that risk for 11.5% and this is the part I think people don't quite understand is behind the ability to pay that Capital, we have $2.25 billion of cash that we put on our balance sheet to make people feel comfortable that there is an ability to pay the principal beyond just depreciation in bitcoin, which is unrealized, and issuing shares above a net asset value. So we have that, and then behind that we have $60 billion worth of Bitcoin. So you ask yourself, am I going to get paid the principal back? Well, we have literally $60 billion of Bitcoin on what is now about an $8 billion asset class. Right. So I think you're pretty, at least at this point in time, pretty secure that we'll pay the principal back. And then are you going to pay 11.5%? Well, we have $2.25 billion, which at this point is about 18 months worth of dividends. And beyond that, we can also sell our bitcoin if we need to, to pay the dividend. So there's this idea that, that. That eleven and a half percent is too good to be true. What are the risk? The risks are fairly well disclosed. But we also have what I would call a pretty bulletproof balance sheet behind it. Right. And so you got to peel back the layers of the onion, for sure. But when you peel it back, we're pretty transparent about what's behind it.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah.

[David Draper]

So I don't think it's too good to be true.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah. And as you said, though, you could choose not to pay it, but that would sort of be the death of the company.

[David Draper]

Yeah. There are a lot of things we could choose. Companies pay dividends. They could choose not to pay it, but when they do that, then the stock price goes down, the equity value goes down. The only reason we would choose not to pay it is if we're in some black swan, the world is ending, Bitcoin is exploding kind of a situation. Right. What I tell people is what would be that situation if bitcoin was to draw down 90% and sit there for five years, there would be a situation where we will probably not pay the dividend.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Right.

[David Draper]

And if you think bitcoin is going to go down 90% and sit there for five years, that means you pretty much think bitcoin is going to zero.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

It would have to fail.

[David Draper]

It would fail. It would go to zero. And if you think bitcoin is going to fail, don't buy stretch, don't buy mstr. Don't buy bitcoin. Don't Buy digital capital, don't buy digital securities. Equity, don't buy digital credit. Right. And for those who think that, you know, we can argue till we're blue in the face, it's okay, you're, you're, you're welcome to have your views, but then you're also welcome not to buy any of our securities.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah, yeah. That being said, even if I'm a traditional investor looking for yield, I don't really have to know Bitcoin or even trust in Bitcoin. I can trust that you have two years of yield payments and I'll see if something's happening. And I have a year to get out potentially.

[David Draper]

Yeah. And that's what's really interesting here. Right. For someone to buy Bitcoin today. Let's go back five years ago when we first started this journey in 2020, almost six years ago now. To buy Bitcoin was not an easy process. Yeah, right. You had to create an account, likely with the Coinbase or Binance US or whatever it was back then. You had to transfer your money in there. You had to go through a bunch of kyc aml, you had to wait three days, maybe the money will show up in a week, and then you actually had to go on, download the app, create an account, all this kind of stuff. And to buy Bitcoin, it was very difficult to do. That was why MSTR was interesting to a lot of people. It was an on ramp to Bitcoin. Okay, put that aside now, today. Right. The process of getting 11 and a half percent yield on your money is as simple as opening a Robinhood account, buying STRC and being done. You don't need to understand Bitcoin if you don't want to. You do need to understand the company. What I prefer it is. And that's what's really interesting about this product. Right. We, we knew this was going to appeal more to the masses than MSTR or BTC. Right. If you look at MSTR today, it's about 40% ownership by retail. If you look at STRC, it's 80% ownership by retail.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Wow.

[David Draper]

So these are folks. And we started to look at the investor list in a lot of detail and it's not, you know, if you look at our top 10 shareholders as an example of Stretch, I believe it's around 10% ownership of stretch, which is a very small amount. Usually your top 10 shareholders of a common equity might own 30%, 40% of the common, which means that this is a product that is being sold to the masses in the US who are buying 1,000, 5,000, $10,000 at a pop, which is fantastic. That's what we wanted. And I would guess without knowing exactly that a lot of these people are just looking for the yield. Right. And they don't know much about bitcoin at all. And for bitcoiners, that's awesome. We're on ramping people into bitcoin because obviously what we do is we take those proceeds and we turn around and we buy bitcoin and put it in the bitcoin ecosystem. And so we're now finding a way to on ramp people who otherwise wouldn't access bitcoin or bitcoin, you know, treasury companies to buy digital credit.

[Mark Moss]

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[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

So you have these fixed income buyers. A lot of fixed income buyers might be people who are dependent on that for like retirement. You might have a lot of old people who need that income to pay their bills, their medical bills, etc. And they, maybe they're 78 years old. They don't have five years to wait for bitcoin to hit the next cycle, right?

[David Draper]

Yeah.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

So they just want the yield, but they're not necessarily being onboarded onto bitcoin. I mean they're getting the yield that's powered by bitcoin, but they don't need to know about that. Which I think is probably a good thing because in order for technology to really hit mass adoption, you don't need to know how it works. Right. So they're not really onboarding to bitcoin. They're supporting the bitcoin ecosystem.

[David Draper]

Yeah, if, if you think about that, that, that sort of person, everyone probably pictures a grandparent or parent who's 75, probably has 10, 15 years left to live. And they, you know, let's, let's say they've done pretty well in their life and they have $2 million, you know, saved up. And most of them. If you look at most retirement calculators, right, like, how much, you know, how much do I need to retire? You ever seen one of those calculators?

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah. And you get 4% a year.

[David Draper]

If you're lucky, it assumes 4% and you're eating down the principal.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah.

[David Draper]

You die so that when you die, you die poor, you die with nothing. That's your goal. Right.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

I hate that goal.

[David Draper]

It's such a terrible idea because if you get the math wrong, you're screwed. Right? Oh, I don't.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

You have a multi year drawdown.

[David Draper]

Yeah. Or if I live for four more years, I'm done. You don't die poor, you live poor for four more years. So these retirement calculators always, I found them comically bad. What you really want to do is if you have $2 million, you want to live off. If you can get 11 and a half percent off the $2 million, you want to Live off the $200,000 and keep the $2 million there into perpetuity so that you can live to the age of 110 if you want to.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah.

[David Draper]

Or have something to give to your kids.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah.

[David Draper]

Right. And the beauty of something like this is because it's tax deferred, that's $200,000 of real tax. You know, you're not paying taxes on that money. And by the way, as, as most folks know, the way return of capital treatment works is, is when you take stretch, let's say you have it for 10 years, the cost basis goes to zero, and then you give it upon death to one of your children, cost basis steps back up and you get another 9, 10 years of tax deferral. So I do think it's an ideal product for folks like that. And you know, we get a lot of flags like, no, that's a terrible recommendation. Like, why, why would you recommend somebody? Because you could lose all your principal. That's fair. Right. That's, that's, that's the downside sort of black swan scenario is the $2 million goes to zero is stretch prices from $100 to zero. Right. But what would I do? What I do is if you see us starting to burn down that cash reserve and it's like two months, sell the product. Yeah, right. And then go. But until then, you had your 11 and a half percent returns.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

And the same thing is true with any fixed income instrument. So I'm going to buy a dividend stock from AT&T. I mean, their business model could be disrupted or I buy a bond from Google and AI disrupts. I mean, so the same is true. There's always that same risk.

[David Draper]

Yeah, there's risk. Buyer beware for sure. Our disclosures are very clear. In fact, you could argue, like those other instruments you're talking about. ATT is a great example. You get to see their business results every quarter. You get to see our business results every week because we put out an 8k of what we've done. And you get to see. Within the week, you go out to our website and you get to see every disclosure you ever want.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Right.

[David Draper]

You can decide when it's time to get worried and get out of the product. So I agree, agree. It's. I think it's a very good option for a retiree not to die poor.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah, yeah. I think it's an amazing product and it certainly works if you want fixed income. I mean, it's just kind of the best option out there. Let's go one layer higher. So now let's go to MicroStrategy MSTR or Strategy MSTR. So MSTR, to me it looks like this factory, as Michael Saylor would call it, where you're taking in, you know, raw Bitcoin and then creating like this digital credit product on there. It seems pretty apparent to me. But a lot of people think that you're just an etf, ETF and you're just holding Bitcoin. And why would you ever trade for more than one times?

[David Draper]

Yeah, yeah. There's always this. Since you asked, what, what are the haters saying? Right? There's either you're just an ETF or, or you're a Ponzi scheme. So why don't we cover both of those, right? Like they, they. First of all, if you want an ETF, you can buy IBIT or you can buy MSBT. Now, Morgan Stanley put out what is a 14 basis point fee ETF.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Right.

[David Draper]

When we first started this in 2020, we bought and held Bitcoin and that's all we did, a software business. And then we bought and held Bitcoin. And so at that point in time, we should be valued as valued, you know, at this, at 1x, our underlying asset was, which is Bitcoin. Makes sense. Right? We then started to lever up, right? And levering up means we took on convertible debt, secured debt, and if we lever up, we were able to then buy more Bitcoin. Right. On leverage. And at that point in time, when you lever up the company. If Bitcoin is going up, if the underlying asset's going up, we should go up more. It's fairly simple, right? And so if you're able to leverage something up, you should trade at more than the underlying asset. And as you grow that leverage and as the underlying asset grows and the value, we should trade it more than that. Right. And then we did something interesting, which was a better form of leverage, which we call amplification, which are these preferreds where we're not diluting the common stock, we're not taking on actual debt that has an obligation of repayment. And so that's amplification. As we buy more Bitcoin through amplification, we should trade it in even greater than 1xMF. Another way to think about it is what are we doing? We're increasing Bitcoin per share, right? Right. And what I tell people is if you buy an ETF, if you buy one bitcoin's worth of an ETF, right? Let's say you put whatever it is, $78,000 into an ETF and you get one bitcoin, that's, that's basically what, what you get with your $78,000. I guarantee you at the end of the year, you will have access to one bitcoin, Right?

[Mark Moss]

Or less.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Because you pay the fees.

[David Draper]

You pay the fees. So you have a little bit less than one bitcoin. That's it. That's the bottom line. One Bitcoin in the beginning year, one Bitcoin minus the fees at the end of the year. Right.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

So less.

[David Draper]

Yeah. If you buy access to one of strategies, Bitcoin, at the beginning of the year, right. Like if you buy access to one of our Bitcoin in one bitcoin per share, right. Like. And at the end of the year, what we've delivered every single year is more bitcoin per share. So if you bought one bitcoin's worth of MSTR stock at the beginning of 2024, at the end of the year, you had 1.78 bitcoins worth of MSTR. And so we're increasing bitcoin per share. And so if you are getting access to more bitcoin per share with MSTR than you are with ibit, shouldn't we trade at a value greater than the underlying. At the point where we stop increasing bitcoin per share, or for some reason we have to sell our Bitcoin and we decrease the bitcoin per share, then we would start to trade at a value less than that. And that's just, I think that's just finance, that's just math.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah. The difference is, I guess with the operating business, then you trade a multiple of that book or the M nav number. So then while you're getting more Bitcoin per share, it could trade at a lower multiple, no different than an equity would trade at a PE ratio. And so the PE ratio goes up and down. So while I may be gaining Bitcoin per share, the multiple goes from a two to a one. And I've lost capital off of my. My equity valuation versus an ETF sort of stays the same.

[David Draper]

Yeah.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

So that's one thing I have to deal with. More volatility.

[David Draper]

Yes. Yeah. And of course you're right, like with leverage comes volatility. Right, Right. Because. Because you're leveraging the underlying and therefore you're getting more volatility of the underlying. Which is why if you look, since we started this effort, Bitcoin has gone up about 38% a year since August of 2020 and it's had a volume of about 40%. Volume of 40. Right. And we have gone up about 55% a year with a volume of 60. Right. So, yeah, you're getting more amplification, but you're also getting more volatility.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah.

[David Draper]

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[David Draper]

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[David Draper]

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[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Financial growth begins long before the first investment. It comes from understanding what you're building toward, what's at stake, and what success looks like for you. At Oppenheimer, we bring bold thinking, guided by the full strength of our expertise to put capital to work building and protecting wealth that lasts generations. Put the power of Oppenheimer thinking to work for you. Wealth management, capital markets, investment banking.

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Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures think

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

So when you think about that then, so it's, it's kind of basic math. If you add leverage, you're going to outperform bitcoin.

[David Draper]

Yeah.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

If we both buy one, we both go up the same. But if I put leverage against mine, I'll go up faster. That's right.

[David Draper]

And if bitcoin goes down, you're going to underperform Bitcoin.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

That's right, yeah. Now I remember a year ago Michael Saylor was saying that, you know that the market sort of expects you to trade maybe a two times volume to Bitcoin. And so that should mean that you should outperform because of the leverage, but also means I should expect you to underperform if bitcoin goes down. So If Bitcoin drops 40% and you go down 80%, is that something that you would sort of expect you're not trying to do anything to hedge that it would.

[David Draper]

And we're not trying to hedge it. And I think, you know, there's a mathematical component to volume and there's a sentimental component to volume. So I can calculate the mathematical expected volatility of strategy based on our Bitcoin per share growth or bitcoin yield and our leverage and our amplification. I cannot calculate the sentimental aspect of volatility that is also driven by, you know, driving the value of the stock price. But I think 2x is not an unreasonable amount because that has been our observation. Now we've seen that compress more to about 1.5. 1.5 the performance of Bitcoin. 1.5 the volume of Bitcoin. Yeah, right. And so that seems reasonable. And engineering volatility up through leverage, you know, is fairly easy. And you know, we were talking about Stretch. What we've done with Stretch is we've actually engineered volatility down, which is actually harder to do. And so we take in a product bitcoin that has a Vol of 40 and we've actually engineered it down to 2, right? And you know, when you take a return of 38 with a volume of 40 and you engineer it down to a return of 11 with a volume of 2, you've actually increased significantly the Sharpe ratio, which is the return above the risk free rate divided by the volatility. So that's actually a more interesting mathematical and engineering feat, what we've done with Stretch than what we've done with mstr.

[Mark Moss]

Hey look, you've, you've worked hard to build your Bitcoin stack, but if it's still sitting on an exchange, it's not really yours. You see, the exchange holds the keys to your Bitcoin. Now if they freeze withdrawals, if they get hacked, they go under your bitcoin, it could disappear overnight. Even if you've moved it into a single cold wallet, you're still exposed. Now that would be one device, one point of failure. If anything bad were to happen, you

[David Draper]

could lose your bitcoin.

[Mark Moss]

Now that's why I use Unchained. Their collaborative custody vault gives me the best of both worlds. I hold my keys, but my security doesn't depend on just one of them. Now this is where security and sovereignty actually meet. You see, Unchained collaborative custody. Bitcoin vaults use a two of three multisig model, which means that you hold two keys and Unchained holds one. That means that you own your Bitcoin. But if you Ever need help, their team is there to assist you without ever having control over your funds. And here's what I really like. Unchained isn't some offshore exchange or anonymous company. They're based in Austin, Texas. And when you call, you're not stuck with bots or scripts. You talk to a real bitcoiner who genuinely cares about helping you get it right. Now, they've been at it since 2016 and now secure over 12 billion in Bitcoin for people just like you and I. Now, that kind of trust doesn't happen overnight. So if you're serious about long term security and ownership, head over to unchained.com markmoss and use code Moss10 to get 10% off of your first vault. Because if you don't hold your keys, you don't hold your future.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

I know Michael Saylor is sort of the guy that's out there in front of everything. You're behind the scenes having to build all this, which is way more difficult than just talking about it, I'm sure. I mean, they're both equally important. But I'm curious, you know, one of the things he talks about is like sort of like simplicity of messaging. And so I know you rolled out three prefs before Strike Strike stride. And now you have stretch, which seems to have found that real product market fit. It also seems like it aligns with that simplicity of messaging. So MSTR buys bitcoin, we digital capital, we create digital credit with stretch. Stretch is easy. It's a bank account that pays you 11%.

[David Draper]

Boom.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

So how important is that for you as a company building that out? And does that mean that Strike strife and stride, I don't really hear them being talked about anymore. They're complex products.

[David Draper]

Yeah. So first of all, on the simplicity of messaging, right. Apple was obviously has proven over multiple decades that the simpler and easier to use a product, the greater the demand. And if you look back 10 years, they had essentially five products at that point in time. 10, 15 years ago, had only five versions of the iPhone. Now they have dozens of products, dozens of versions of the iPhone. And I think they waver off of the simplicity messaging. But all that said, they proved that a simple product that is easy to understand is the one that's going to sell. Because we go back to bitcoin, an amazing product, simple and brilliant in its design is difficult to explain. Right. And stretch, a very simple product to explain. Now, getting to something simple is a lot harder than getting to something complex. Yeah, right.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Perfection is when nothing else can be stripped Away, Right?

[David Draper]

That's exactly right. Yeah. And so there are a few reasons why we went through iterations of strike, then strife, then stride, then stretch. The first reason is just pure ability to launch a novel product into the market underwritten by banks who want to ensure that the product will be successful. Right. And so as a company that was very well known and had essentially saturated the convertible bond market, the first preferred that was backed by Bitcoin that was going to be perpetual in nature, was novel enough. And so the banks that we work with said to seed this novel product, we need to get the convertible folks to buy it and therefore, let's make it a convertible preferred. Right. That's why we launched a convertible preferred day one. It wasn't because we wanted to make it convertible, but we felt that making the product successful, getting all the existing convertible buyers who trusted us to buy. We started with the convertible preferred. Right, right. And so that. That was clearly going to be the first one. It was successful. So he said, now, now can we do one that's not convertible?

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Right, right.

[David Draper]

And that's what Stryfe was, was basically a preferred that had a fixed rate 10% that was not convertible. And we said, okay, good. Now we said, okay, can we launch something that doesn't have the governance rights that our senior Strife and Strike do? That is for the masses. Right. And that's what was the purpose of Stride was a fixed rate, you know, no governance rights, non cumulative junior. And that was to be for the masses. And we launched and it was pretty successful. But when we said, hey, fourth try, how do we make this really, really simple?

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah.

[David Draper]

What the masses want is not a product where the principle goes like this and the rate stays stable. We flipped it and said, let's keep the principal stable. And the rate goes like this. Back to the retiree who has, you know, five, ten years that they, you know, they don't want their principal to get cut by 30%.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah, right.

[David Draper]

They want to know that they're going to get paid 10 and a half, 11, 12, whatever percent every single month and the principal is going to stay flat.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah, right.

[David Draper]

That was the epiphany. And that's why we launched Stretch. And it was very much one of those cases where as we put the products out in the market, we started to realize what the market really want because we got market feedback. Right. So that was useful. Now why don't we talk about the other products? Right. The Stretch product is built to perform regardless of bitcoin price. Bull, bear market. You're Seeing it right now, it's been through a fairly significant bear market where bitcoin price dropped 50% and stretch is sitting right around 100 bucks. Right. It's actually quite phenomenal as an experiment in the capital markets. And I know you're a capital markets guy, like, it's a pretty cool thing to watch this happen.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

And you actually climbed up to par sort of during that bear market.

[David Draper]

That's exactly right, yeah. And we had to increase the interest rate, but it did what we were hoping it would do, which is quite phenomenal. So now the other products are built to perform in a bull market. Right. So what I'd like to think happened, and you saw this actually happen the first half of last year, it was a bull market and we saw products like Strike and Strife start to build up to 110, 120, and then we issued more of it. I do believe as we enter a bull market, you'll see these products start to perform. People make money off of the principal appreciation and the dividend and we'll be talking a lot more about those products. But they were, they were sort of, they're, they're the bull market products.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Got it.

[David Draper]

And Stretch is the, it doesn't matter market product is. So I, I do think if you're sitting here and, and there are people buying into, as an example Stride, which is trading at like 80.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Right.

[David Draper]

But the dividend is still 10%, which means the yield you're getting on that is actually 13, 14%.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Right.

[David Draper]

And so if you are, if you are a little bit of a longer term holder, Stride, you might argue is actually a better investment than stretch because you're going to get a 14% yield and you're going to get potential appreciation from 80 to 120 or whatever it is, you might get a 50% appreciation in a bull market.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Right.

[David Draper]

Not suggesting that everyone go do that, but that is an alternative to buying Stretch.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Right. So if your time preference is a little bit lower, if you can wait longer and handle a little bit more volatility, you could actually earn more yield with potential upside. But there's also potential, more potential downside, more like a dividend paying stock where you're going to get the capital appreciation of the underlying stock plus the yield that it pays you. Yeah. Now it seems like the demand is so insatiable that it's just unlimited. The other night at dinner, Michael said that you guys took what, two decades to get the 250 million that you originally put in into Bitcoin in 2020. And then like last week you made that, like in a minute. Yeah. The screen refreshed and then. And then we had it.

[David Draper]

Yeah.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

And it makes sense when you see 145 trillion of tradable fixed income instruments, 350 trillion of debt instruments. Right. So it seems like, I mean, it's just, there's, there's no competition, there's just so much money out there to be made. That being said, most of that tradable securitized fixed income are typically bonds with duration, and you have equities that are perpetual. So it's not a perfect fit into that market. So how do you think about that?

[David Draper]

Yeah. So for us, the issuer equity that is perpetual is less risky to the common shareholder than a bond with duration. In fact, if you look at our convertible bonds, they all have duration. And the challenge with duration when you're investing on an underlying asset that is still quite volatile, is you might get stuck at some point in time where something comes due and you risk selling Bitcoin at a low price, lower than you bought it, taking a loss to pay off the bond. Right. And so, so that is, from an issuer perspective, why we are moving away from convertible bonds, which are pretty good sort of way to invest when you're, when your equity is growing. Right. The pricing is not great because it's an illiquid market, not accessible by retail for the most part, but it's a reasonable investment. But as an issuer, for us, going to something that is perpetual equity without duration is superior. Now, if you're an investor in the product, knowing that it is a debt instrument that is more senior and you can get your principal back above everybody else is reassuring. But the trade off is you're getting 3, 4, 5%. And so if you want that 11.5%, this is the type of instrument. And then we go back to what are the risks in the instrument? And as they laid out, I think the risks are actually quite nominal. If you believe in Bitcoin as an asset class, Amazon Health AI presents painful thoughts. I can't stop scratching my downtown. Yeah, but I'm not itching to go

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

downtown and tell a receptionist, I'm here to talk about my downtown. Some things you'd rather type than say out loud.

[David Draper]

There's no question too embarrassing for Amazon Health AI. Chat your symptoms and get virtual care 24, 7 Healthcare just got less painful at Oppenheimer. We're proven because we're grounded in discipline. For 145 years, we've been building and protecting wealth through every market cycle with precision, clarity and the courage to think boldly beyond the moment. This is what market tested legacy looks like for this generation and the next. Put the power of Oppenheimer thinking to work for you. Wealth Management Capital Markets Investment Banking

[Public Investing Representative]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc, SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comDisclosures Most dog

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

food brands don't really want you seeing how their food is made. Just food for dogs is the opposite. They actually invite you in. You can walk into any of their kitchens and see real human grade ingredients like chicken, beef, carrots and peas being prepared right in front of you. It's real food made in real kitchens. Nothing is hidden behind labels and that kind of transparency says a lot. Nothing to hide, everything to love. Go to justfoodfordogs.com and get 50% off your first order.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Okay, so I gotta tell you what I've been doing with my money lately.

[Mark Moss]

I moved my cash over to river and before you ask, yes, I still pay all my bills in dollars. Everything works the same. But here's the real difference. You see, river pays me 3.3% on my cash and they pay it in bitcoin. So my money that was just sitting there doing nothing at all in the bank, it's now stacking bitcoin while I sleep. And I started thinking like my bank takes my deposits, they loan those deposits out, they make 12, 17, 24% and they pay me 0.04% I mean honestly, that's kind of a shakedown when you think about it. Now Rivers, FDIC insured, they use full reserve, they charge no fees. So I don't know why I didn't do this sooner. So click the link down below. Get $100 in Bitcoin just for getting started.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

And I think it all starts with that underlying belief in the asset class or of bitcoin. And I've talked to a lot of bitcoin treasury people and they don't have that underlying belief in bitcoin. And it's like they're jumping on the bandwagon but, but they don't believe in that. So I want to, I want to jump into that for a second because you know, again, you're the one that has to sort of build this machine. You're dealing with the capital markets, trying to raise capital. I would imagine that's pretty hard because you're sort of building a whole new asset class. Not just a product, but an asset class that hasn't been seen before. It seems like you've completely changed the entire financial system, which I look at the financial system, both equities and bonds as based off of discounted future cash flows. So do I believe they have the cash flow in the future to pay me back? Right. And with AI happening right now, who knows which of these companies will be able to pay me back? Right. Apple does a, Google does a Google bond to buy, to build a data center. I don't know if they'll the cash flow from that or whatever. Whereas you have the asset, it's not based off of discounted future cash flow. So you're building this new asset class, this whole new structure on a brand new asset. So how has that been going into the capital markets and try to sell that vision? I mean it's obviously worked pretty well. But I'm curious, like maybe specifically like from your past jobs, maybe before strategy, how does this set you up to go do this?

[David Draper]

Yeah, there's, I'll call it. We talked about trading at a premium to mnev and there's a mathematical and a sentimental aspect to it. Right. And I think that's the same with bitcoin. Right. And we call bitcoin digital capital. And capital has been around since the history of mankind, right. And capital is stocks, bonds, real estate, gold. Anytime you're putting money into something for future returns, ultimately, right. It's an investment. And capital has been around since the beginning of time. And bitcoin is the digital transformation of capital. And I'm A technology person, Mike's technology person. You know, we started running a software company and anytime you can digitally transform an asset class or digitally transform a product, you're going to create tremendous value. And we've seen that happen really in the last 30 years of our life. Google, the digital transformation of information is hugely valuable in what it's done and it's created a lot of good, I think, for humankind. Netflix is the digital transformation of video entertainment. Apple really started to break through when it became the digital transformation of music with the ipod. And so I believe that when you digitally transform something, an asset or a product, that you're going to create tremendous value for decades to come. And bitcoin took capital. Let's just take gold as an example. Why is gold valuable? Gold, number one, is a commodity. It is fairly supply limited in that it's very difficult to mine. You can't make gold chemically. Everyone's tried to. And it's not sovereign. Nobody controls it right now take everything that gold does well and do it better through programming and digitization. And so you start with, those are the reasons why bitcoin has been as successful as it is. It's the digital transformation as gold small, digital transformation of capital big. Right? And so if you start with that belief that when you create something digitally that is a better form of its analog self, you're going to create value. And that's great. Now you get into the sentimental part and the sentimental part a lot of people in the US don't quite understand because you live in a country where you trust the government for the most part, you trust the dollar, right? US Dollar supremacy around the world. You can take a dollar pretty much anywhere around the world and spend it. And people are like, ah, you have dollars, give me your dollars. Right? And that doesn't really exist in many, many other countries around the world. Argentina, Nigeria, Turkey, South Africa. Right. Like where you don't want to hold the local currency. And so if you go around the world, there's been governments that are not trusted. There are wars, there's strife, there's disagreement, there's famine, all generally caused by the government of those entities. And so they need a better way to save money, hold money to prosper in the long term. And in some of these countries, it's not even legal to hold US dollars. You can't change Argentinian pesos for dollars for a long period of time. So that's why bitcoin became a solution in those other countries. And who knows what will happen in the U.S. right. We trust the government. They inflate the dollar. We don't see it day to day, but we see it when we go buy a burger that used to cost five bucks and now it costs 11 bucks. So you get the digital transformation of capital and you get the global impact of solving a real macroeconomic geopolitical issue that impacts billions of people. And so when you think about it, how can you not believe in bitcoin?

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

I agree with you. The more value you provide, the more wealth you create. And so if you create personal computers for every person on Earth, that's pretty valuable. And to the point that you're making, if you can sort of change the people's ability to hold private property and project that value into the future for billions of people, that creates a lot of value. And Americans have a hard time seeing that because we don't understand the problem a lot of times. But we also have to understand, understand that the US makes up 4% of the world's population. So it's a very small percentage. In the US you wouldn't put all

[Mark Moss]

your money in one stock. So why have your whole life in one single country? Now, if you've thought about another passport, Italy and bitizenship might just be what you've been looking for. Italy has one of the most underrated golden visas in all of Europe, just a €250,000 investment threshold. And with bitizenship, you can make that investment into bitcoin. Bitcoin, not some risky business venture or real estate that you don't actually want. Approval times are usually about three to six months, and you don't put any money in until your visa is approved. Plus, with the golden visa, there's no physical residency that's required. You can get full Schengen access from day one, and it's renewable forever. Now, Italy puts you at the heart of Europe, and with Schengen access, it gives you flexibility across 29 countries. If you want another passport and you want your investment to have bitcoin exposure like me, then bitizenship may be the

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

answer you're looking for.

[Mark Moss]

So go to bitizenship.com markmoss and check it out.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

I think I've seen you talk about maybe even your earlier past. That maybe makes it even more personal for you where your family, I think you came from Vietnam or your family came from Vietnam, and you saw firsthand what can happen when the banks devalue money or seize money.

[David Draper]

Yeah, it's so. So I was born in Vietnam, South Vietnam. After the fall of South Vietnam. It was 1975. I was born in 1970. My parents, my mom and dad were, I call it, upper middle class in Vietnam. And to be upper middle class in Vietnam at that point in time, it meant that you owned property and you ran businesses. Right. And so we had all. My dad's family had land, my mom's family had some businesses, textiles, business, et cetera. And this is what happens when your government falls to a communist government. Right. The first thing they do is they declare all of the currency in the former country null and void. Right. So the South Vietnamese dong, what they said is, you, first of all, you can't have any. Right. And so you go in the bank, you turn it in, and doesn't matter how much you had, we'll give you back 200 dong, which is at that point was $10.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Wow.

[David Draper]

That's it. In North Vietnamese currency, that's piece one.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

No matter how much you have, doesn't matter. So everyone starts from an even.

[David Draper]

Everyone starts with $10.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Wow.

[David Draper]

Second, if you have any property, it is now no longer your property. It's the property of the government.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

There's nationalized everything.

[David Draper]

Nationalized. All the property. Wow. So the villages, the farms, the farmers that my parents family had nationalized. Third, if you have any businesses, they are also now the property of the government.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Wow.

[David Draper]

So that's nationalized.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah.

[David Draper]

Fourth, if you have any gold, it's no longer legal to have gold. So that's all of your wealth wiped out.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Gone.

[David Draper]

Gone to nothing. And so as that in 1975 still occurs around the world. Yeah, right. So this is not like. It's not like, well, we haven't had a major war around the world in 100 years. Fantastic. 80 years. Fantastic. But this government seizure of property still happens from time to time. Or it might not be the government, it might be a drug lord.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Well, in North Korea or Afghanistan, it's still happening.

[David Draper]

So. So it's still happening. Now, how bad is it? People are like, wow, that sounds pretty rough. You're like, you know, as someone who understands economics, that's not great. But people like, oh, this is communism, maybe it's. Maybe it'll work out. Socialism, maybe this will all work out right. For my family, after about three years of this, my dad, 1978, you know, he's in his 20s. My mom's in my 20s. I was too. My sister was four. So this is so bad that let's escape the country. Yeah, right. And what is escaping Vietnam mean in a post communist era? It means getting On a boat 40 foot long, you toss a hundred people on there, and you sail into the ocean. And to where whatever happened, it's. Whatever you see out there is better than what you have here. Right. And so I have three kids. You know, I sometimes get emotional and, like, what would cause you to do that?

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah.

[David Draper]

Today.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Right.

[David Draper]

But it's still happening. Yeah. And so this is the story of the Vietnamese boat people. And. And what my parents didn't know is it was. There's about a 50% mortality rate.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah. They didn't know that.

[David Draper]

You don't know what's gonna happen. Right. So we were lucky.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah.

[David Draper]

We survived. And we actually were brought through a refugee camp into Singapore. We were picked up by a boat, brought us to Singapore, and then we were brought to the US To Syracuse, New York, by a Catholic church. And so we were able to live in the US and raised there. But the whole story is a story about war. It's about government control and trust. And ultimately, if bitcoin had existed back then, the government can't seize your bitcoin. And so you see why, when you see failing countries, failing economies, you look at a place like Venezuela, why do people own bitcoin? Look at a place like Iran, why do people own Bitcoin? And this is where somehow the story gets twisted. People are like, well, of course people own bitcoin in Iran because of all the illegal trade, all the illegal activity. And, you know, there's oil and there's weapons trade. And, you know, now to go through the Strait of Hormuz, you have to pay your toll on bitcoin. Bitcoin is associated with bad.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah.

[David Draper]

No, the reason people own bitcoin in Iran is they don't trust the government of Iran. Right, right. And. And so bitcoin actually is good for the populace and the people of Iran. Or if you live in Russia and you don't agree with the government or you don't want your ruble seized, your own Bitcoin.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah.

[David Draper]

Right. And so there are somehow these negative, almost pernicious stories that bitcoin equals bad. Because when you go to a country that's failing, people own bitcoin.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah.

[David Draper]

It's actually the opposite. Bitcoin is the lifeline for the people that live in countries that are failing.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah. Thanks for sharing that story. Around that same time, a lot of countries fell, and I've heard the same stories of people leaving the USSR when it broke apart, they could only take $200 with them. Yeah. There's another big crypto guy Iran. And he told me a story of his family left Iran when it fell in the late 70s and they were getting evac out and his father melted down all their gold and when they showed up they're like, you can't take that. Yeah, you either stay here or you leave it. And they had to go live in tents in South Africa because they had no money. You know, so it happens a lot. And so thanks for making that real because it's important for Americans to understand how big this movement really is.

[David Draper]

Amazon Health AI presents Painful Thoughts I I can't stop scratching my downtown. Mm, yeah, but I'm not itching to go downtown and tell a receptionist I'm here to talk about my downtown.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Some things you'd rather type than say out loud.

[David Draper]

There's no question too embarrassing For Amazon Health AI chat your symptoms and get virtual care 24. 7 Healthcare just got less painful. The world is transforming faster than ever, and standing still isn't an option At Oppenheimer, we're working at the forefront of the innovation economy to invest where progress begins. Finding opportunities that build and protect wealth for individuals and institutions that want a seat at the edge of tomorrow. Put the power of Oppenheimer thinking to work for you. Wealth management, capital markets, investment banking

[Public Investing Representative]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures think

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

We got to wrap this up. I know you're short on time. Let's future pace a little bit. You guys are acquiring. My strategy is acquiring bitcoin faster than anybody could have imagined. You're on track to a million bitcoin this year. It looks like maybe by Q3 we'll see how fast things go. So number one, when I look at that, you know, as I'm a bitcoin bull, I see the price at a million dollars coming sometime, sometime maybe the next five years, ish, something like that. Or maybe it's 10 years, but it's coming. So you have a million bitcoin, you have a million dollar price tag or a trillion dollar book value, maybe more. So I'm curious, I guess number one, where do you see sort of this growth trajectory over that next decade and the price of bitcoin going? Well, let's talk about where you see your growth trajectory first. I heard, I think I heard Michael say something about stopping around 7% of the Bitcoin supply. But you're at over 4% now.

[David Draper]

I think it's premature to make guesses of what the company will do more than two years out.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Two years out.

[David Draper]

And I say that because two years before we launched Stretch in July of 2025, we never contemplated the idea of launching a perpetual preferred to amplify the company and to acquire more bitcoin and provide our shareholders bitcoin per share. The space of bitcoin, of digital assets, of decentralized finance is moving so fast, innovation is moving so quickly that we need to constantly innovate. Right? And so even I don't get obsessed with when are we going to get to a million bitcoin? I find it to be comical and interesting, right? And fun to watch people and their predictions, but that's not something Michael and I don't sit every day or every week or every month and say, hey, when do you think we're going to. We don't have a model that shows when we're going to get to a million bitcoin in the company, right? And so when we get to 7%, if we get to 7%, it isn't something I sit and think and obsess about. The things we sit and think and obsess about are how do we increase bitcoin per share, right. And how do we innovate with products built on top of bitcoin that people will want? How do we build a great fantastic product that people want? And I think if the obsession is to the common shareholder about increasing bitcoin per share and the obsession is to the 6 billion people around the world, that's really what we care about. How do you create a product that allows us to give back to bitcoin and to individuals?

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

But you do have to think about it in some regard because like, the demand is insatiable, right? So you could just, we go as hard and fast as we can, but I would also imagine that you don't want to take on a bunch of debt at a rate higher than you have to pay either. So you sort of have like a lever where it's like, shoot, we could slow it down and drop the rate to 8% and see if we still have enough demand. Obviously we'll have more at 11, but maybe we still have pretty good at 8. Let's just try 8. Or it's like, no, bitcoin's cheap right now. Let's go as hard as we can. So you do sort of have a little bit of a lever based off of.

[David Draper]

We do. And what's cool about the stretch product, especially given its distribution of retail, is we can watch the product every day and let the market decide, right? Like if we get over amplified or if we don't have enough US dollar reserve or whatever. And we do, clearly we have some risk models to decide what is the right level of credit to issue and what is the right level of MSTR to issue and what are, you know, on the one side there are the things we can sell MSTR traditional debt preferred in those things. Those are the things that we can sell, right? And potentially bitcoin too, right? Like bitcoin is a Thing that we could sell into the market. And there are things that we can buy. Right. And so what are the things we can buy? We can buy bitcoin. We can buy US Dollars, essentially. We can buy back our convertibles. So there's this. We have models that show sort of those are the trades we can do as a company. But what does that result?

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

That's to pay out the yields if you needed to.

[David Draper]

Right. It's not just to pay the yields. Right. It's also to increase the bitcoin per share. So to buy the bitcoin. Right.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

But I guess what I'm asking, if I'm more specific, is how long will the rate stay at 11 and a half percent? Meaning.

[Mark Moss]

Right.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Because like, I would imagine you'd want to pay less if the market would bear. And so. Well, if we have like a. A ratio of how much stretch we want to add at a percent of amplification or whatever. And so how do you think through keeping that rate 11%, at what point do you think about starting to slow that down if demand's too high? Yeah.

[David Draper]

There are two mechanisms by which we can decrease the rate. One is demand goes high and the pricing starts to go over $100. The 30, 30 month v. Web. Right. If we don't want to take all the demand that comes in and the price starts to increase a little bit, we can decrease the rate.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Right.

[David Draper]

Programmatically, the other thing, if you don't

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

want to take all the demand that comes in. So then that's the question. So is there a point where you get too much demand? You're like, we just don't want to bring on that much.

[David Draper]

Not yet. Not yet. There could be overtime. Because the other thing is, let's say what will likely cause the demand to increase is the bitcoin price will increase. And if bitcoin price increases, then our asset base goes higher. The amount of bitcoin we have is now worth about $60 billion. Let's say bitcoin price doubles, it's $120 billion, and our amplification gets cut in half if we don't issue more stretch. So it is a multivariate equation there. And the flywheel could work itself. But yeah, I mean, the other mechanism to decrease the rate is if SOFR goes down, which it likely will with the new Fed chair war, she'll come in, decrease the Fed funding rate, and SOFR would go down and we would likely decrease the rate as a result of that too. Yeah.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Okay. Okay. So you're going to Track that a little bit.

[David Draper]

Yeah, we'll keep an eye on that. Right.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Okay. All right. One last question. Let's not go too far out. I think Michael Saylor talked about. So you're probably on board, but like, hey, we think in 10 year chunks, but it's pretty hard to see after 20 years. So where do you see microstrategy or where do you see strategy being in 20 years?

[David Draper]

So I think the next big thing that's going to happen in the next year, 2026, is the integration of decentralized finance and traditional finance. And I've talked about that a lot. I think companies like Morgan Stanley, like Citibank are leading that charge. And what will happen next year is the tokenization of securities. Right? And when we are able to tokenize Strasher, we're able to tokenize MSTR or Apple or Tesla or anything else. You lead to direct access to 6 billion people for our securities all around the world. Which if you see the intersection of decentralized finance and traditional finance and then the tokenization of securities, that means that bitcoin will increase its importance and access around the world. Right? Imagine if 6 billion people can buy Stretch or you can pull out your phone. I can pull out my phone and I could tap your phone and I can sell you at $100, one share of stretch. Now imagine if I could do that via WhatsApp with somebody that is living in Vietnam or Korea. And so what you'll start to see is this convergence of decentralized finance, traditional finance. So if I look at now, let's talk about 10 years out. 10 years out, we have a finance world that is fully decentralized. Finance has eaten up traditional finance and bitcoin becomes the digital reserve asset of the world. It'll be as important as the US dollar. Governments around the world will be owning bitcoin. They'll own gold, they'll own the US dollar, and we'll be the largest holder of bitcoin in the world. That's sort of the world I see in 10 years. And what's happened in the last two years and next year, call it the three years, 20, 25, 26, 27, we'll look upon as the most transformative time. It'll be the digital revolution. Ten years from now, people will look back and think it's just. What do you think about the Internet today? You don't think about it as this revolutionary product. You just think about it as its existence. The Internet is. The Internet wasn't invented, it just is. People will think about that, about AI. Ten years from now, nobody will be debating whether AI is good or bad. AI will just exist. Ten years from now, people won't be debating, is bitcoin good, Is bitcoin bad? It'll just exist like the US dollar. And if that's true, we'll be the largest holder of bitcoin in the world.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah, it's pretty awesome. It's going to be pretty hard for anybody to pass you. So since you can't probably say it, here's what I think. You're going to have at least a million bitcoin. Maybe in 20 years from now you have a million and a half. Maybe it's 2 million. Bitcoin. It's going to be over a million, that's for sure. Bitcoin's price in 20 years could be 15 million. It could be more. So simple math, 15 million times a million bitcoin, 15 trillion. Maybe you get a two times book value. Mnav.

[David Draper]

Yeah.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Like we're talking one of the most valuable companies in the world.

[David Draper]

If bitcoin is the most important digital asset in the world in 10, 20 years, and we're the largest holder of bitcoin in the world in 10 and 20 years, you can make an argument that we would be the largest company in the world 10 to 20 years.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah. I mean that simple math could be. And I'm saying it, not you, but could be 15. 15 million dollar. Bitcoin million. Bitcoin million and a half. 30 trillion. Book value 2 times M nav. 60 trillion. I mean, we'll see where it goes. But I'm excited to watch.

[David Draper]

I like your math.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah, I said it, not you. Anything that you want to say? Shout out people that should know about, stretch or follow or follow you or anything like that.

[David Draper]

No, it's, it's. Look, I, I love the work that you're doing. I think all, all of the podcasts, all the information. We're in a time when there's so much change.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Yeah.

[David Draper]

In the industry that providing information out to the masses is more important than ever. You know, I noted more recently, traditional media. Right. Like print media and Forbes are starting to speak more positively about the asset class. And you know, you have been pretty resilient in your support, so I appreciate it.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Good. All right, well, thanks so much.

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[Public Investing Representative]

You ever wonder how far an EV can take you on one charge? Well, most people drive about 40 miles a day, which means you can do all daily stuff no problem.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

Go to work, grab the kids at

[Public Investing Representative]

school, get the groceries and still have enough charge to visit your in laws in the next county.

[David Draper]

But they don't need to know that.

[Public Investing Representative]

And the best part? You won't have to buy gas at all.

[David Draper]

The way forward is Electric.

[Public Investing Representative]

Explore EVs that fit your life. At Electric Freight,

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

I'm U.S. transportation Secretary Sean Duffy. We all seem to be in a

[Mark Moss]

rush these days, from work to driving our kids around.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

But when you're behind the wheel, please do not speed.

[Mark Moss]

A few minutes saved by going faster is never worth the risk. So follow the speed limit, enjoy the drive, maybe bring some snacks for the kids. And know that along the way way you're getting quality time with your family. Paid for by nhtsa.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

This is Sophia Donner from OK Storytime this summer.

[Podcast Interviewer / Mark Moss]

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[David Draper]

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[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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