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- [00:00]
Natalie Brunell
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:02]
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- [00:34]
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- [02:07]
Natalie Brunell
I grew up hearing stories of my family's life under communism. Right now, I feel like we're going in the wrong direction with our country. The wrong solution is more government.
- [02:17]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
When you disrupt the free market, that system of production breaks.
- [02:22]
Natalie Brunell
And the one thing that's really unique about where communism or some of these ideologies are going today is we've never had technology be at the level it is right now.
- [02:30]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
There could be some utility to these tradfi institutions adopting Bitcoin, but there are some risks associated with that. That's I think, a bit about.
- [02:38]
Natalie Brunell
Not only was it inevitable that institutions came in, but if you believed that you could get hyper Bitcoinization without these pools of capital, you're kind of misguided.
- [02:48]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
But I think that there's risks that come with that sort of acceleration, especially when leverage becomes involved.
- [02:53]
Natalie Brunell
I think what people say says more about them than it says about you. Don't assume things. You really don't know their full story, and so try not to judge.
- [03:03]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Natalie Bruno, welcome back to Market Disruptors.
- [03:06]
Natalie Brunell
Thanks so much for having me. Looking forward to this.
- [03:08]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah, great to have you. I want to start off with your book. Getting right into that. You the intro of your book is titled Everyone has a Story, and your podcast is called Coin Stories. And that to me, it felt like this unique perspective in the bitcoin space to be coming in with that frame, to be talking about storytelling and the human element of bitcoin. And so I wonder why you decided to start approaching bitcoin through that lens.
- [03:40]
Greenies Dental Treats Announcer
Sure.
- [03:40]
Natalie Brunell
Well, I've always loved storytelling, and for those who have followed my show, they might know that when my family came to the US When I was very little, we just took in a lot of stories, especially visual news channels on all the time, movies, TV shows. And a lot of that really helped my parents learn English and me as well. And I don't know, I just fell in love with storytelling from a very young age. And one thing that I realized when I came into the sort of bitcoin ecosystem through Twitter back in like 2020ish, during the pandemic, I thought, who are these people that I'm learning from? I was starting to read the books and follow the podcast and sort of these names would emerge as the voices of bitcoin. But I really wanted to know, where did they come from? Who were they? What did they overcome? I have always loved biographies and autobiographies, so a lot of people don't know that My podcast, Coin Stories was actually an evolution from an earlier hobby podcast that I did called Career Stories, where I would interview journalists and social media folks and politicians about their backgrounds. And for me, the stories that always really captured me were sort of the rags to riches or people who overcame a lot and in order to achieve success and didn't allow the obstacles to get in their way, I always found a lot of inspiration in that. And so, yeah, I just think stories are really powerful. Being a news journalist, one thing that I realized is people tend to forget facts. You might be familiar with the stories about how witnesses are pretty unreliable, and they'll give you 10 different accounts of what happened and you have a little bit of truth in each one. But it's just facts are kind of hard for us to remember unless there's emotion tied to it. And that's what storytelling does. So I just remember being even just a journalism student and reading a wonderful book called Aim for the Heart, which was that the only way that a story is memorable is if it touches you on that human level. Because there are so many things that are universal to our experience. And I found that in bitcoin. I found that it touches on these universal principles where so many of us feel like we've been sort of taken advantage of right and left behind and it's sort of unfair and it's, it causes us to challenge what we've come to believe is sort of the way our system works. Right. With inflation, like, oh yeah, prices go up, they're more expensive, things are more expensive than when your grandparents were young. And bitcoin causes you to say, wait, but why? And does it have to be this way? And so for me, it was just, I really wanted to combine that love of storytelling with my new passion for bitcoin and learn about the people in this space. Because ultimately, like, we are the people adopting bitcoin. Right. So never thought it would be my full time job, but it's been the best job I've ever had.
- [06:31]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah, that's awesome. I'm curious, what is one of the most moving stories, COIN stories that you've come across so far in this journalism you've been doing?
- [06:43]
Natalie Brunell
Well, you know what's interesting is when I set out to start COIN Stories, I actually thought it was going to be a short lived series. I thought maybe I'll interview the 12 biggest voices in bitcoin and then that'll be it. Because I didn't at the time actually have plans to leave my job as a reporter and didn't think it would be possible for me to work full time in this space. Damn. And so those early episodes, I really encourage people who have come to my show later to go back to 2021, when I launched the show, and listen to the full backstory of Preston Lyn Alden, Jeff Booth, all these people that have helped so many of us understand bitcoin. They talk about where they're from, where they grew up, what their childhoods were like, what they wanted to be when they grew up, the challenges that they face, what ultimately brought them to bitcoin. Each story is so unique. Like, a lot of people don't know that Lyn Alden really, really grew up in a tough environment. Like, didn't have a home at some points of her childhood and literally was in many ways self taught as like an investor and she has like an mma. Like, it's just fascinating. And a lot of people, I think they don't realize that that exists in my catalog from very, very early on. So I actually, if people are curious about the best sort of COIN stories, if you will, I would go to the very beginning and listen to like my first 10 to 15 episodes.
- [08:08]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Awesome. Yeah, yeah. The. I went back recently and listened some of the. Your two biggest interviews, I think are with Whitney Webb and Carl McGregor on your. On your channel. And those were, I think a few years back now. But those were like really exceptional chats. I learned a lot, I learned a lot from Whitney Webb around that same time when you interviewed her.
- [08:27]
Natalie Brunell
And yeah, she's got a mind like an encyclopedia. It's really remarkable all the things that she can retain because it's one thing, I mean, we can all read it, right? But like to be able to retain it and know every name and every company and how they're connected, like that's what fascinates me about Whitney is she's, she takes in so much and then she's able to connect the dots and then retain all of it just by voice, like on like short notice.
- [08:53]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah, it's staggering. I'm sure that the writing that she's done and that, you know, the investigative journalism into the writing it into a cohesive story thesis or whatever, that goes a long way in that retention and the articulation. But yeah, she's. She's incredible really. I'm curious then how you would answer the question, like, what is your COIN story? How would you answer that question for yourself?
- [09:16]
Natalie Brunell
Yeah. So for, for people who have read my book, they'll know that I feel like I was shaped by my family's background a lot. We are first generation immigrants from Poland and I grew up hearing stories of my family's life under communism, which was just a very difficult upbringing in the sense that there was no economic hope. Like, I feel like American kids, we're so lucky to have this sense of the American dream being a reality that like, if you have a dream, you can achieve it no matter what your background is. And that didn't exist for my parents. That was one of the reasons they wanted to come to the United States, because when they were young, it was like food lines and shortages. They had to wait in queues for basic necessities like bread and meat. And there would be this underground economy that formed because when you can't get what you need. You kind of have to resort to whatever you can in order to secure it. So all of a sudden, there would be, like, black markets, and people would be paying each other under the table. And, like, that's what emerged because people find a way. And so I always found that background of theirs to be fascinating, because all of this, it didn't happen so long ago, right? Like, Communism fell in 1989 in Poland. And now, one thing that's been interesting to see with my parents is they see the kind of seeds of communism sprouting here. And they're as people who have experienced what that really is like. They're like, how can people embrace this? Right? And we see that right now with some of the political rhetor that's moving in the direction of socialism, and it has this messaging of, oh, we're gonna take care of each other, right? We're gonna make things more fair. But truly, if you look into what communism has done, it's terrible. Removes your freedom, and there's still an elite class. There's still a ruling class. It might be. Might look different, but there's still people in power that ultimately get to control what you do, what you have access to. And so that's one of the reasons why I've become so passionate about educating people on bitcoin, Because I feel like so many of us are misguided. And I've shared this story before, but I can relate to the people who are now crying out for things like, oh, we gotta tax the rich. Cause I used to be one of them when I was going through school, not understanding how money works until bitcoin. I thought, oh, wait, this is unfair. This isn't what the American dream is. We need to make it more fair. Someone needs to go in and redistribute or tax, you know, the wealthy. And I just. I was very economically illiterate until I started going down the rabbit hole and really understanding how this all works and what the history of money is and what inflation really is. And so I hope to. I hope to have that impact on people. Because right now, I feel like we're going in the wrong direction with our country. And people who live in. Live here, but have roots that are former Soviet or Cuba or other places that were communist, you know, parts of Asia, they know you do not want to go in that direction.
- [12:27]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah, we were talking a little bit about this yesterday, but it's just to summarize what we were saying. It's staggering to me that we could look back on the last hundred years and see like 40 million people die in communist China with Mao's Great Leap forward, and another 40, 50, 60 million in Soviet Russia, most of which died there in both those cases, actually, most of which die of starvation. When you disrupt the free market and you disrupt the signals that come from individuals, that system of production breaks. And when that goes really wrong, that means, you know, one person starving to death is a catastrophe. And 100 million people starving to death, it's like you just can't wrap your head around how brutal that is. And you can read. If you look at the Gulag archipelago that soldier Nitson wrote, I think there's this excerpt where he where called Cannibal island that I remember Jocko Willink read in a conversation with Jordan Peterson. So if you don't have time to read the whole book, I think you can pull that up and it just, it brings it to life. It's not just the statistics. I think Stalin himself actually said, one death is a tragedy, but a million deaths is a statistic. You know, and so when you bring the story back into what's happening there, these aren't statistics. These are millions, hundreds of millions of individual stories. Then the urgency that some people have about the ringing the alarm bell about the, the communist catastrophe that has taken place and that we're beginning to repeat the patterns of, will start to make a lot more sense.
- [14:14]
Natalie Brunell
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And people don't realize that that really represents this world of scarcity where there isn't enough for the average person, despite how hard that they're working. Right. And. And I just, I really admire the fact that my parents, you know, they got to be in their late 30s, early 40s, they. And that's when they had the chance to finally come after waiting decades, and they still made that decision. But that's what led to it. Right. It was like, at least now our children will have a better life. Because even though communism is sort of unwinding, we don't know what that looks like. And America represented this beacon of hope and freedom and opportunity that you could come here and no matter what, like you could get an education. And it doesn't matter what your background is, you can achieve really anything you put your mind to. Like, they really believed that. And I think that that helped instill a sense of hard work in me at a young age. But yeah, I mean, a lot of countries have either flirted with communism or they're doing so now. And it's been devastating. I mean, one of the stories I share in Bitcoin is for everyone, is my. My mom's holding me when I'm very, very little. We get up to the line where you purchase your meat. Cause these were butcher shops, but these weren't small businesses. These were all operated by the government. And so the government would have a quota. But of course, again, to your point, the economic incentives are not there. There's no price signal. So, like, there might be 10,000 items that are created or produced, and it might not be enough, or there might not be enough sizes or whatnot. Like this is. It's just the misaligned incentives and capital not being allocated properly by the government. And so we got up to the front of the line, and they had run out. And the lady. I started to cry. My mom started to cry. And then the lady in front of us shared some of her meat with us because we wouldn't have any at that point. Like, that's a reality. My mom lived in her 30s, right. Like, I'm in my 30s, and it's
- [16:11]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
just like with a young child, you know, like, to be dealing with that. And it's like, I'm trying to provide for my baby. Right.
- [16:18]
Natalie Brunell
Yeah. And so, you know, people take that for granted. And I'm sure you see now all the kind of populist outcries of, we need to tax the rich, and capitalism has failed us, and people hate capitalism. And one thing that I think I've learned through Bitcoin, and I would most like to credit Jeff Booth for this, is the fact that we haven't had true free markets and capitalism here. And I think the reason that people are so angry is because in many ways, we've had socialism for the wealthy class. Right. With all the money printing and just a form of crazy competition and crony capitalism, where the few benefit at the expense of everyone else. And all of us sort of left out, feeling like, wait, we're fighting over crumbs at this point. It's so unfair, and someone needs to do something about it. But obviously, the wrong solution is more government, more intervention, more control. And the one thing that's really unique about where communism or some of these ideologies are going today is we've never had technology, technology be at the level it is right now. Right. Where it can really invade your. Your personal life, your privacy, your data. It can surveil you everywhere. Like, that adds another component where now we're in the Orwellian future.
- [17:39]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah. And it's even guys like Orwell, Huxley, the people who left these warnings for us. They couldn't have imagined the technology that we have now. They couldn't have imagined that this. Cameras, the mics, everywhere, the. Yeah, they left us warnings about this stuff in an era where we had much less capacity for that sort of control. And so we should take those warnings even more seriously.
- [18:04]
Unchained Podcast Host or Advertiser
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- [18:56]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
I wonder. So as we're looking at like the foundations of our society shifting and our current fourth turning and we're seeing some of those patterns we've seen in history play out. I wonder if you know a bit about what it looked like in Poland at the beginning of that. So the end of World War II, the communist government was installed in Poland. Do you know much about how that took place? Like at a slightly higher resolution level and maybe if there's any analogs to what we're seeing today, I could certainly
- [19:28]
Natalie Brunell
brush up on my history a little bit with some reading. But what I do know is that after World War II, around 1947, actually, Poland turned communist. And you have to remember that before that, I mean, we were invaded from the east and the west. So from the west side it was Nazi Germany, from the east side it was the Soviet Union. And again once, like Nazi Germany, the Germans were driven out, we were left with the Soviets. And apparently there was an election that was rigged in 1947 and that's ultimately what led to that. Soviet communist control. And life started to really deteriorate. Prior to that, Poland, I believe, was an independent republic, but after that it was really under Soviet control. And many people are familiar with the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989. And that's sort of that visual like, okay, communism is. The system is being dismantled. Right. And there was so much emotion in that. I obviously was too young to remember it, but those news images, I think, captured the fight of a generation, but that's when it sort of started to come apart. But a lot of people don't know that the Solidarity movement in Poland had a lot to do with that. So they had a free and open election for the first time in June of that year, 1989. And that ultimately contributed to the wall being able to come down. And so, like, Poland has just been wrapped up in a lot of just, you know, it's, it's been partitioned and like, different countries have wanted it to be a part of that country over the many, many centuries. And now I'm actually really proud to say that when I speak to our family, friends, or, you know, distant relatives that are there, their lives in some ways are better than here in America because they've really embraced free market principles over the last few decades and embraced capitalism. And if you go to a major city in Poland, Warsaw, and it won't just be Polish people telling you this, it'll be tourists too. It's so clean. Everything is so efficient. People like, I don't know, it's just. It has turned around entirely because they rejected communism. And so my parents have questioned whether or not they should go back because retirement there is just an easier life than here. I mean, sure, you've seen the statistics, right? Like, people can't retire here because it's so expensive and they have to keep on working. And people on fixed incomes are struggling so much. And so I think we need to take into account sort of the experiments that have happened around the globe, whether it's toward communism, socialism, or against it. And which ones are faring better, which ones have their GDPs up and are more productive and have a higher quality of life, higher birth rates versus others. And so I'm proud that Poland has, has fared pretty well in the last few decades.
- [22:26]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah, because for us, it hasn't really. It's not exactly like a switch that flips where we go from, you know, capitalist to communist, you know, and so we've seen the decline of our. Which I wouldn't chalk up fully to socialist policies, I think There's a lot of contributing factors there, but we've seen the decline of America, as, you know, we were talking before the conversation, too. I live in California, and you see a lot more of the impacts of that here. You know, it's like, I make good enough money and it's like, tight out here in Cal. You know, you live in California, you pay your. You get your, like, your independent contractor, you just scrape, like, 30, 40% off your income. And then, you know, there's all of the. Yeah, it's, it's. It feels like you're not very free and like, the economy is pretty captured here and there's a lot of downstream psychological, cultural implications from that. Certainly something you just said about, like, I'd be curious to look into. So, like, it seems to me once you have a rigged election in a country, it's hard to come back. It's hard to, like, restore the freedom. And so Poland had made. It sounds like maybe 40, 45 years of something like that, of that issue. And then for them to reclaim, for them to be able to reset up a real election and, like, reclaim the country in that way. That's interesting to me.
- [23:50]
Natalie Brunell
Yeah. Actually, my favorite restaurant in LA is called Solidarity. It's a Polish restaurant. So if you haven't been, you should go. It's based on that movement. And so, yeah, there were a lot of people that stayed that were like, we're gonna fight this to your. Like, you were kind of telling me, right, the idea of, like, do you leave California or not? Do you come back to try to make it what you envision? And that's what people did. And others really wanted to flee. And my parents ended up, you know, leaving with their kids because they just thought, there's going to be a much better life and more opportunity here in the United States.
- [24:23]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah. And for the record, I'm digging in. We're fighting for California. We're getting it back, everybody. Don't worry. We're gonna, we're gonna be all right over here. Let's see, what else did. I want to talk to you about
- [24:37]
Natalie Brunell
someone who was a reporter and an investigative journalist in California for over a decade. Let me tell you, you've got a lot of work to do in that state.
- [24:46]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
It's true, it's true. We're gonna. Yeah, we'll start small, but we got work to do. Lots, Lots of fun to have.
- [24:52]
Natalie Brunell
You see that, that little Emmy nominate right there? That was a corruption investigation, one of my several in California, so.
- [25:00]
Unchained Podcast Host or Advertiser
Okay.
- [25:01]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Okay. Well, you know, we'll get, I'll get somebody to run for governor. We'll come talk to you about what we need to fix that, you know.
- [25:07]
Natalie Brunell
Yeah. It's just so crazy.
- [25:09]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah, it's crazy. You said one thing from your book that I think is important for like the average person to understand is you talk a bit about the connection between money and hope and also about the connection between fiat currency and the moral decay of our com. Of our country.
- [25:31]
Natalie Brunell
Yeah.
- [25:31]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
And, and I feel like there's. Those two things are important for people to be able to connect. So I guess the, the question is what is the connection between fiat currency and loss of hope and how that affects the morals and the psychology and the culture.
- [25:48]
Natalie Brunell
Yeah. So I think that this kind of goes back to what I was mentioning about universal principles. I think that hope is something that universally is a motivator. It's a motivating force for us. Like, if you don't have hope, then why work hard? Right. It starts to make you feel like maybe I should just give up. Maybe I should not do X, Y and Z. Maybe I, maybe I shouldn't play by all the rules. I think that that's one of the things that has happened in the fiat system is by destroying people's purchasing power and stealing their time and their energy from them, it erodes at that sense of sovereignty, hope for the future. And it makes us more short time preference, high time preference, as opposed to thinking about the long run. Because you really, you're in survival mode, right. I mean, if you're just talking about paying your bills and figuring things out day to day, month to month, how can you think about a year from now, two years from now, five years from now? And so we see it. And sure you'll get pushback from critics that are like, correlation is not causation, but the trends that we see and the statistics and charts that are out there are really overwhelming. Especially when you look after 1971, what has happened into the family structure, birth rates, the ability for people to own homes or property, the desire for people to want to own homes. Right. Like you have this nihilism that forms in young people where it's like, I don't even care, I don't wanna have kids. Cause everything's gonna be destroyed from the climate to my ability to afford everything. And so that's what's really sad to me. And as a reporter too, I mean, I saw it for sure. It's just like in certain areas, depending also on certain policies, like you see crime rates go up Mental health issues go up because I think that people are feeling frustrated and feeling like there are no options, and there's this downward pressure on everybody who lives in the household to provide. And even when you're working multiple jobs, it's like it's never enough. And I don't think that that represents the American dream. I don't think that that represents how we can or should function as a society. I mean, I think we're at our best when we are collaborative and when we can drop our time preference. And money impacts that so much. And I never appreciated that until I learned about bitcoin. I took it for granted. I didn't understand why prices go up every year, and I didn't connect the dots of how that could impact our own behavior, our sense of hope. Because I think also when you have hope and you live in a world of abundance and freedom and your money goes up in value, you aren't necessarily thinking inward about how you survive, how to make it whatever. You start to operate outward. How can I be of service? How can I help others? What can I do to provide? And so I think that we've tilted. And even though the American values are ones of sort of that type of citizenship, camaraderie, collaboration, entrepreneurship, all that, now we're just sort of like, how do I survive and who's out to get me?
- [29:02]
Greenies Dental Treats Announcer
Right.
- [29:03]
Natalie Brunell
I think it incentivizes grift and distrust. And we've seen it. Nobody trusts anybody today. Nobody trusts our institutions. And so my really big hope, and it obviously can't happen overnight, but my hope is that bitcoin, by realigning incentives, will create a world where people can stop being so stressed out about their financial security and start, you know, being able to focus on, like, what their gifts are, to be able to share with the world, to be able to be productive and. And create that world of abundance that I really do think is possible, like human. I mean, in the face of all of this, look at what we've created in the fiat world. Right? We've got rockets that, like, with all
- [29:44]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
these twisted incentives, take off.
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Michelin Announcer
Yeah.
- [29:46]
Natalie Brunell
And then land again. It's like, what could we do on a bitcoin standard? Is what I always wonder.
- [29:51]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah, yeah. The. The. The dots that you connected very clearly for me in the book when you were talking about this was the. You mentioned how the requirement of everyone in the household to now become providers, to now become income earners. And the result of that is that you destroy the family unit when you do that, because who's raising the kids. Both the parents are out working and so you either have to drop them off to the state to get educated in the school system and then even still on top of that, when you have both your parents working all the time, it's like it's more difficult to raise the kids properly. It's not impossible. Both my parents worked and I feel like they did a great job. I'm very grateful for, you know, the way that they raised us. But it certainly would be easier when you only need one parent to be working to provide an income and the other parent can be more closely attending to the children, especially in the early years, because children, children become properly socialized basically by the age of four. So it's really before they get into school, there are ways that they learn to interact with other kids. And if they don't learn how to play well with other kids and if they're not taught like, good play etiquette, that moves up and they may be antisocial for the rest of their lives because they didn't have that important attention from ages 2 to 5, let's say
- [31:20]
Natalie Brunell
something like that, 100%. And I think that a lot of these decisions, especially with regards to even starting a family, relate to finances. And so if people just had more optionality, if they didn't, if they didn't have to worry so much, not only would I do, I think we would see more families, but we would see more situations where people are able to be present with their kids, whether that's taking time off or, you know, having more flexible roles or having one parent at home. Like, I just think when people have the option, that's the best case scenario. When you feel like you have no options and you're just, like I said, like, working three jobs is not enough. You know, I sometimes get really sad when I. I'm traveling a lot for work and I'll get picked up in Uber and it's someone who's in their 60s or 70s who should be retired or close to retirement and they can't save up and, you know, you'll talk to them and it's like, that's not their only job and they're trying to help their kids and like, that is sad. That should not happen in America to me. So I just think that if we are able to fix the money, and again, it's not going to happen overnight, unfortunately. But if we can do that, if we can address some of these core issues, that our system is so corrupt, truly in terms of the financial system, and the unit of account that we base everything on, I really do think it would have these effects and consequences that are so positive and change the trajectory of society. And I really hope to see that. Maybe there's like that great saying that sometimes you plant seeds and you don't get to bask in or you don't get to sit under the shade of them. Right. Because they won't grow while you're alive. But I hope that for our children's children that they get to see that, because that would be a great world to live in.
- [33:22]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah, yeah. I think that duration of time, you know, to be looking at, it's not. We're not in this for like bitcoin is certainly. And if you didn't know this, you know, now bitcoin is not like a get rich quick scheme, you know, it's a get rich slow and painfully and, you know, and. Yeah, scheme. That's what it is.
- [33:45]
Natalie Brunell
Yeah.
- [33:46]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
I wonder.
- [33:46]
Natalie Brunell
You brought up a good point of just like how the education system, which has its own incentives, especially at the college level. Right. It's sort of replaced the parental unit when it comes to deciding what values are. I think that that's a really scary world when the school feels like they're the parents more than the parents are. I don't like that. That happened a lot in California, I think.
- [34:14]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah, it did in a few different strange little ways. I'm curious. So we were talking a little bit before about. You're just like, ah, man, I hate. I like it when everyone's not fighting in bitcoin right now. We got a bunch of. A bunch of these fights breaking out, you know, and it's. I think it's. To some degree, it's classic bear market bottom stuff. Although we got some new problems, some of the. Some of the same old problems in a lot of ways. Working on fighting spam on the chain and keeping the blockchain decentralized and secure. But I wonder how you think about like riding the line between furthering the bitcoin revolution and the necessity of like playing in the tradfi swamp a little bit, you know, or like, you know, that the in between of that side of things and being like, okay, we do. There could be some utility to these tradfi institutions adopting bitcoin and these sort of things. Like. But there are some risks associated with that. Like, I wonder how you just generally look at that and try to balance that. Because that's something I think a bit about.
- [35:20]
Natalie Brunell
Yeah, I mean, I think that Lynn Alden, when she came on my show recently, she said it so well, that not only was it inevitable that institutions came in, but if you believed that these like that you could get hyper bitcoinization without these pools of capital, like, you're kind of misguided. And I've become someone who just truly believes that bitcoin is the first free market. And I think that a free market means that something has to stand on its merits or just allow it to fall. And that means that there will be companies that form and they put bitcoin on the balance sheet because certainly it's better to put on the balance sheet than treasuries or something. And some will do really well, and some will be managed well and some won't. And I think it should. Should be up to people to decide how they invest their money. I think that increasingly we will see bitcoin being used as a medium of exchange and as money. And part of that will come from the incentive structure. If a business that I want to purchase something from incentivizes me to give up these sats that are appreciating in value faster than almost anything because they offer me a discount. Or maybe they only accept bitcoin and, well, maybe I'll spend some of my bitcoin. And I think we'll start to see that more and more businesses wanting to accept bitcoin or saying, hey, we will only take bitcoin. So I think that will slowly happen on its own organically, and we're already seeing signs of that. But then on sort of the store of value side, look at the behemoth that we're sort of encroaching into, right? The trad fi world that's made up of hundreds of trillions of dollars worth of equities and bonds and real estate. And it's like sometimes I just think that the bitcoiners, the true purists who think that everyone is just going to all of a sudden, like a light switch, buy bitcoin and put it on a cold storage wallet. Like, I think that they're forgetting that some of this takes time. I mean, we, especially in America, are programmed to trust institutions. We probably think more about the television we're going to buy than where we put our money, because we have FDIC insurance at the bank, right? We don't even think about it and what that means on the back end in terms of them being able to take on extra risk and always getting bailed out. But I think we just. I feel like there's gonna be a Gradual change that happens and rejecting every institution that comes in or rejecting every treasury company. I just don't agree with that because I do think that it would be better to see people forming companies that want to encourage bitcoin adoption or are putting bitcoin on the balance sheet than the opposite. Right. So I see it kind of as accretive. And then I really do believe, like, hey, if the management makes bad decisions, there's no bailout. There's no bailout coming. There's no, you know, Fed Mama Bear, Papa Bear coming in and socializing all the losses on us, the taxpayers. Like I, some will succeed and some will fail, and that's okay. And the only thing I wish is that we would have more debates that are kind of calm and civil and based on the technical merits of something as opposed to so many personal attacks, which are obviously really easy when you have, you know, a screen in front of you that you can hide behind. But I've been a big believer that, like, before you start attacking someone, especially publicly, why don't you pick up the phone and try to have a conversation with them? And I wish that bitcoiners would do that. So it's interesting, right? Because on the one hand, bitcoiners are so all about freedom and sovereignty, but when that freedom means using bitcoin in a way that another bitcoiner doesn't like, all of a sudden you can't do that.
- [39:17]
Greenies Dental Treats Announcer
Right.
- [39:17]
Natalie Brunell
It's like, well, freedom is freedom. Right. Or you're trying to usher in the bitcoin future you want to see. And I just don't think that anything is going to be sort of that like unilateral. I think that we're going to see all kinds of different things happen within bitcoin and adoption at all levels. And I'm here for the free market, for better or for worse. I don't know if that answered your question, but yeah, I mean, none of it bothers me. Like, building on bitcoin doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the idea of, you know, a company that does something criminal or rehypothecates or is dishonest or commits fraud, that of course should always be rooted out. But people building on bitcoin or having bitcoin treasuries, like, the more the better.
- [40:09]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah. You know, River's a sponsor of our show and I really appreciate how they're very transparent. They post proof of reserves everywhere. They're really encouraging of self custody as well. I think that to. I think you should Basically, not your cues, not your coins, is like, you know, that's a. It's a idiom for a reason. Is that the right phrase? Idiom? I don't know. It's a cliche. It's a bitcoin cliche for a reason.
- [40:40]
Natalie Brunell
Well, it is true.
- [40:41]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that's important. I think that maybe there's. So that's, you know, the baseline, That's. That's the rule. I think there is maybe a place on top of that. At least there's another level to me of like, okay, if somebody else is holding your coins, but they post proof of reserves, there's a level there. There's a trust me bro level, which is where most of these companies operate, you know, which is like, we promise we have your bitcoin now. You know, like, strategy. They are, like, audited. You know, they're a public company. They're audited by legit people. So, like, as much as you can trust a tradfi institution is about, you know, as much as you can trust them, which I'm not saying is zero, to be clear. But. But, you know, there's. There's levels to that game. You know, I think it's important for people to know, like, if you're trusting somebody fully, they're building on bitcoin. That's okay. But you, you know, you should. You should approach those things differently. I hold some microstrategy still. Saylor shouted out the show this morning. I'm rooting for the guy. I like want it to work. I think he's playing like a. There's some danger in that game of financial engineering. You know, it's like you're. You're flying a plane, you're engineering something, and you've probably thought of everything. Maybe something could go wrong that you haven't considered, you know, and so I just think it's important for people to keep that frame. I'm not saying don't touch these things. I'm saying know what they are and know the difference between somebody else holding your coins in an etf, somebody holding your coins in an ETF that post proof of reserves or something like that. And then, like, you actually own your Bitcoin. And I think the real revolution will take place there, and we need some of these guys to be doing more creative things. It does help accelerate things, but I think that there's risks that come with that sort of acceleration, especially when leverage becomes involved, because bitcoin infamously brutalizes leverage. So be careful out there, you know, I'm not saying never touch it, but I'm saying be very, very careful. And for most people you're probably better off never touching.
- [42:36]
Natalie Brunell
Yeah, no, I agree with what you said about leverage and you're totally right. There's a hierarchy, you know, and I, but I think you have to kind of before you can run,
- [42:46]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
somebody's gotta pave the path, you know, and people are trying to do that and I respect that.
- [42:50]
Natalie Brunell
Well, I wasn't ready for self custody right away. Right. And even when I started it, it's a very intimidating process because we've really never had something like it. Right. We've never had digital property that you can take full self custody of. It is this like digital bearer instrument. And we have outsourced responsibility. Right. And consequences in our current system. So the idea that you would be fully responsible as your own bank and you control these keys and if something happens, if you do something wrong, that could mean you lose your life savings, I think that's very scary for a lot of people. And so first of all, I think we do need on ramps where people can say, okay, like okay, I'm getting my feet wet, I'm not taking the self custody yet, but I'm figuring this out, I'm learning and then that's kind of the next step. And I do think that, that when there are more of these on ramps, especially for pools of capital, that just for whatever reason, a lot of it's due to regulations and mandates at the institutional level, they can't purchase spot Bitcoin. Their only option is to do, say an ETF or some of these stock proxies. That's still a net positive for Bitcoin. And the more that people start to invest in the space, the more incentivized they become to say, what is this? Right? Like what is this? What is self custody? How can I do that? And so I just think that this is a long process that we're just at the starting gate of. And I think ultimately, absolutely, we should all be self custodying Bitcoin. But I don't think that we get there by just saying it's this or nothing, right? Like down with every institution that holds Bitcoin or tries to do anything with bitcoin. And it's one of the reasons why I really do, like when we get together like at conferences and things like that, because you get to know the people and you see who they really are and you learn a little bit about them. You know, you have to understand I come from a news background and people will always judge you, especially when you are public facing and your work is put out there in a medium where people can like deconstruct it or criticize it in these social forums. So I'm kind of used to it. So you build up a thick skin. But yeah, I mean, of course I think that if you have a conversation with someone or break bread with them, sit down with them, you generally have a more civil discussion than some of the things we're seeing online right now.
- [45:21]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about that in terms of like you're saying, I've been doing this for a while, I've developed some thick skin. I haven't been doing this sort of stuff for very long. I've managed to. I feel like I've got relatively thick skin. Like when people are. When people attack me for things that I don't really think are true, it's kind of like, ah, well, that's not true. You're like attacking somebody else that isn't me, you know, so like, whatever. But I wonder what advice you might have for me. Let's say like just someone who's beginning to be. Have more public opinions or maybe a better frame is like, what advice would you have given yourself seven or eight years ago when you were starting out doing this, you know, doing a bitcoin show, getting into the industry, transitioning from reporting on other things. Yeah. What advice would you give yourself back then?
- [46:10]
Natalie Brunell
I mean, I think it's the same advice that anyone would give their younger selves. It's like, believe in yourself more and don't pay attention to the naysayers. I've always believed in that saying that like, you'll never be criticized by someone doing more than you. You're criticized by people doing less.
- [46:27]
Greenies Dental Treats Announcer
Right.
- [46:28]
Natalie Brunell
Because the folks who are out there focused on really building, focused on growing, focused on kind of providing and being of service. They're some of the least critical people I've ever seen. Right. They're like too focused on their missions. And I think what people say says more about them than it says about you. And maybe we've all had those moments, right, where you get upset or you get jealous or hurt and your reaction is more about you than really about them. And my favorite book is, well, one of them is, it's called the Four Agreements. And one of them is it's really about don't assume things because you just don't know. You don't know what a person's going through and you don't Know what their battles are that they're facing. And so just be nice. Just be nice. Cause you just, you really don't know the full story always. And so many of us interact on superficial levels. Right. We're doing an hour long interview. But you don't know my whole background, my family, everything. It's not really getting to know someone on a deep level. That takes time. And so I think that people just, they make comments and we constantly judge each other on these public forums and it's like. But you don't really know the person. You don't really know where they come from. And we hear narratives and it's like, I always try to remember that until you know someone, you really don't know their full story. And so try not to judge because it doesn't feel good being on the receiving end of judgment. So don't do it to others as much as you can.
- [48:06]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah. He who is without sin casts the first stone. And I think people forget that. I think people lose the humanity of people through the screens. You know, we see these little digital representations of people on our phone and whatever, and it's like, no, no, no, that's like, like, yeah. I think like you said, people would interact differently if they were standing in front of you and they could see you and you know, like, feel your physical presence rather than this just synthetic version of each other that we get. I mean, especially, you know, video is one thing like this, but I feel like Twitter is, you know, easily becomes a cesspool because it's so impersonal. It's so far removed from like real human interaction.
- [48:48]
Natalie Brunell
Yeah. And it just sort of festers. Right. Cause I think once the first stone is thrown, it just like people pile on. And that's kind of sad too. Yeah. Because like, we rarely see reconciliation. Right. Like, that's not even really celebrated. But I've always been a big believer that you should just be as open and understanding as possible and forgiving too, because again, you don't know where someone's coming from. And people have made assumptions about me and then they become my close friends when they realize that maybe some assumption that they had was wrong. So I just, I don't know. Like, this is kind of just like an interpersonal thing and a lot of us are interacting only on digital media, so we don't really ever know each other. But look, people can make whatever assumptions they want. And if they want to get to know me, then hopefully I'll meet them and we have an opportunity to do so.
- [49:46]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah, yeah. I think I see you as someone who's like, positioned to be a, like, do a good job at like, building bridges and like, bringing people together. That's something that has been important to me, you know, even though, like, it's important to hash out certain conflicts. I had this conversation with Matt Crowder where, you know, he's. Dude's got some spicy takes. Of course. I really appreciated what I've learned from him and the interactions that we've had so far. But. But I think that, like, I don't know, I think that those who can be kind of look at both sides and be like, okay, this is, I don't know, work towards the Kumbaya. Work towards like, let's bring people together. We don't have to like, turn like. I don't know, people just seem to be so disposed to like, get after each other and attack one another instead of being like, hey, okay, nobody's perfect. Everybody, like, has, you know, made mistakes, stepped off the path. I even think even, like, I don't know, there's some conversations about, this guy's a spook, that guy's a spook, this guy works for the government, blah, blah, blah. And I go, even those guys, man, you know, like, there's still just people, let's say they are in, in bed with some three letter agency or whatever, you know, it's like, it's still just a person, you know, like, let's, you know, talk to them, let's figure it out, you know, like in these, you know, everyone. Nobody's the bad guy in their own story, of course. Not for the most part. Right. So everybody thinks they're working towards the right stuff. So if we can like, have better conversations and work towards like, better understanding and better alignment, I think that, like, I don't know, I think, I think we gotta do that. I think if we don't do that, the alternatives are ugly, you know, and so keeping the conversation going is really important.
- [51:34]
Natalie Brunell
Well, I mean, look, people have said horrible things to me even in the last couple of weeks just because of this debate and they make assumptions again. But I try to remember that they're probably coming from this place of they really think that they're defending the bitcoin network. And that's one thing that I will give credit to the folks that are these really kind of purist fundamentalists within Bitcoin is like, I know that they seem to be really driven by that, by that idea of like, this is such a precious thing, we have to protect it at all costs. From any threat, even if we may be wrong about some of the threats. And I feel like it comes from a noble place. It's just, you win, you know, you win more flies with honey.
- [52:21]
Unchained Podcast Host or Advertiser
Yeah.
- [52:22]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah, that's right.
- [52:23]
Natalie Brunell
Some of the conversations, you know, I just wish that they were a little bit kinder, but it is what it is.
- [52:30]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah.
- [52:30]
Natalie Brunell
Just gotta. You gotta be the change you wish to see.
- [52:33]
Greenies Dental Treats Announcer
Right.
- [52:33]
Natalie Brunell
So I. Yes, I try to treat people with the kindness I wanna receive, and I just don't always receive it back. And that's okay.
- [52:41]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah, yeah. Well, keep that up. I think that, like, the energy you bring to the bitcoin space, the kindness, the. Those sorts of things I think are very important and we do not have enough of it, you know, so keep it up. I'm rooting for you. I think that's a great place to wrap. Is there anything. Where can people find you? What would you like people to know as we finish this up?
- [53:05]
Natalie Brunell
Well, I would love for people to check out my book. Bitcoin is for everyone. If you are in bitcoin and you feel like you've read every book, I promise you there's still something new in this one. I share my personal journey in it and that it's really more of like a. The human reason of why bitcoin is so important. And if you're not into bitcoin yet, it's really, I think one of the most accessible introductions to bitcoin. That was my goal, is I just wanted something that you could give to your mom, your sister, your grandma, people of all ages. And I'm really grateful for the warm reception that the book has had so far. And if you can share it with someone, I'd be really, really grateful. And then, yeah, I'm active on Xat Brunel. My website's talking bitco and my show comes out twice a week, sometimes three times. And I look forward to feedback.
- [53:59]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Yeah, amazing. Yeah. I mentioned to you that when I finished your book, I was like, this is the one. One day, maybe, if this does happen, when my sisters are like, hey, I want to learn a little bit more about bitcoin. I have three sisters. I mentioned you and I was like, this would be the one that I'd give them.
- [54:15]
Natalie Brunell
Thank you.
- [54:15]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
I think it's deep and broad. It covers a lot of important topics and simple. It was easy to digest. I listened to it on audible, which. You read it on Audible, and so, you know, for those who are interested in. Yeah. Where to find it, those are the options. So thanks so much for coming on. Appreciate it.
- [54:34]
Natalie Brunell
Yeah.
- [54:35]
Host (possibly a bitcoin or finance podcast host)
Great chatting.
- [54:41]
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Natalie Brunell
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