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- [00:00]
Podcast Host
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.
- [00:05]
Terrence Michael
I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I
- [00:09]
Jake Roquet
don't trust much of anything.
- [00:12]
Terrence Michael
It's the rage bait.
- [00:15]
Podcast Host
It feels like it's trying to divide people.
- [00:19]
Terrence Michael
We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little. NBC News brings you clear reporting.
- [00:27]
Jake Roquet
Let's meet at the Facts.
- [00:29]
Terrence Michael
Let's move forward from there. NBC News Reporting for America. This is Malcolm Glauble from Medal of Honor Stories of Courage.
- [00:38]
Jake Roquet
This episode is brought to you by
- [00:39]
Terrence Michael
Navy Federal Credit Union. At Navy Federal, they want you to know that if you need a positive sign towards achieving your goal of homeownership, this is it. Because even though today's housing market can seem discouraging, the Homebuyer's Choice loan offers members down payment options as low as 0% with no required private mortgage insurance. Look for your sign today. Navy Federal Credit Union. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA Equal Housing Lender. Terms and conditions apply. Loans subject to approval and eligibility requirements. Learn more@navyfederal.org 0down this July 4th come celebrate at America's Block Party Hosted by America 250, America's Block Party is a can't miss 4th of July concert happening at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum.
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Podcast Host
Experience music, performances by major artists, patriotic tributes and the kickoff to giving 4th, helping to make July 4th the largest day of giving in American history.
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Terrence Michael
It's more than just fireworks.
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Podcast Host
Join this landmark celebration and get your America's Block Party Tickets now for $17.76 at america250.org LA Every business has an ambition. PayPal Open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with access to business loans so you can expand and hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide. Your customers can pay all the ways they want today with PayPal, Venmo, pay later and all major cards so you can focus on the future when you need a partner trusted by millions. There's one platform for all business PayPal open grow today at paypalopen.com loans subject to approval in available locations.
- [02:17]
Terrence Michael
Wasabi is purpose built to free your business from skyrocketing storage costs and fees from the big guys. Wasabi is the go to provider for professional and collegiate sports teams around the world. Check out Wasabi's AI enabled intelligent meet storage, Wasabi Air and the industry's only cloud storage service with triple protection against cyber criminals. Wasabi driving innovation in data storage for up to 80% less than market competition. Try for free@wasabi.com Wasabi Hot Cloud Storage Proud partner of IHEART podcast network. If we didn't agree on the bitcoin story, there would be no bitcoin. Because really, bitcoin is just a story.
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Jake Roquet
What is the bitcoin story?
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Terrence Michael
Every story, period throughout history is about transformation.
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Jake Roquet
Money is a tool and you should use it as a tool. But if you make it the destination, your life will fall apart.
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Terrence Michael
Part fiat's not going away in our lifetime or the next lifetime. Governments are always going to want to control the money slaying of the heroes
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Jake Roquet
in the bitcoin space. Did you have to do that yourself, personally, at any point in time? Why is gold not money? Why is cash not money?
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Terrence Michael
But the problem is the minute we get there, we are immediately tested. Oh, here's a better bitcoin. Your mind often has the answers for everything and it's trying to tell you, but people don't like, take the junk out.
- [03:27]
Jake Roquet
Is like the global banking system really doomed? And like, what does that mean? I'd like to go through the whole hero's journey, that map onto the bitcoiners experience. Welcome back to Market Disruptors. My name is Jake Roquet and today I'm joined by the great Terrence Michael. Terrence, welcome to the show.
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Terrence Michael
Thanks for having me.
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Jake Roquet
Jake. You got an interesting background that I'm super excited to talk about. I first came across you, I might have seen you once or twice around the bitcoin Twitter sphere, but I came across your talk relating the hero's journey to bitcoin and the experience that bitcoiners go through. And I thought it was really great. So that's what I'm really excited to talk with you about today. I wanted to start with this question though, because you've produced over 20 movies and 30 TV shows with studios like MGM, Universal, Warner Brothers, and I was curious to give people a bit of background on your professional history. What are some of the standout stories that you've worked on that were in that and some of the biggest lessons you learned from, from working on those?
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Terrence Michael
The most well known stuff I did was probably when I shifted to television just because, you know, less and less people were going to the movies. And so more recently it would be a lot of the, the, the bigger sort of alternative scripted, non scripted, but scripted shows like Duck Dynasty, those, those were the ones that became more known because, I mean, I made a lot of independent films. The ones that went to Sundance or South by Southwest, they always got worldwide distribution, but they were, you know, the smaller, like the A24 type movies. Before A24 was even around. So I don't. I don't think most. Most people. A lot of cinephiles will know my movies, but most people would know more my TV shows when, you know, I was doing Auction Hunters and Duck Dynasty and a lot of psych, like, alternative reality type shows, but ones that we scripted to be sitcoms.
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Jake Roquet
Why do you think Duck Dynasty was. Was so popular?
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Terrence Michael
People like the fish out of water. They like the underdog. They like. They also like based people. They like people that go against the grain and say, hey, I'm going to live life on my terms, in my way. And a lot of my TV shows were that style. A lot of. A lot of, you know, fish out of where I did this other show, which was about Bubba Smith, which was. He's the only black, you know, the only African American motocross racer in a world of all white guys, and he's the best. So sort of like Tiger woods with golf and, you know, redneck southern Florida, you know, living out on a ranch and, you know, just acres and acres of dirt and. Which was similar to Duck Dynasty, right? These, like, sort of hillbilly guys that, you know, have millions and millions of dollars and, you know, could do anything they want, but all they want to do is, you know, eat ham sandwiches and, you know, shoot ducks and hang out with their family. You know, God, country, family, that kind of thing. And I think a lot of that. A lot of that ethos is similar to the way bitcoiners want to live because they sort of get exposed to the world that they've been programmed into and been conditioned. And, you know, this is. These are the steps. This is the path. Only to realize they wanted me on this path and why. And so I think people start to question things. I think ultimately everyone questions things when they get older, but certain things like bitcoin and certain things like story, because really, bitcoin is just a story. That's. That's all it is. It's a story that we tell ourselves, and it's a story that we all agree on. If we didn't agree on the bitcoin story, there would be no bitcoin. It would be worthless. It only has value because we say it has value. And so if I were to draw a connection, it would be my latter years of doing tv, after doing film, where I had a little bit more reign, a little bit more leniency, to really pay attention to the. To the human journey and the way humans transform. Because every one of these TV shows, I would do or Even a movie. Every. Everything is every story, period, throughout history, you know, plays, whatever cavemen sitting around the firetown stories. Everything is about transformation. It's like we're moving from A to B. And all story really has, in general, three acts. And, you know, you put your hero in a tree in act one, and, you know, he gets stuck. In act two, you throw rocks at him. It gets really bad for your hero. And act three, he gets out of the tree, but he's transformed and a better person because he lived through those rocks being thrown at him in the tree. That's all story is like, you know, in real general. Then you can break it down, you know, into more detail, but that's. That's all story is. And bitcoiners have that same thing. We realize that we've been stuck in a tree, and we. We come to bitcoin when we realize that rocks are being thrown at us. And wait a minute. There's a way to get out of this tree. Where most normies are like, keep throwing rocks at me. I'll just spend more money on a thicker helmet. I'll climb the tree higher. I'm going to work harder to avoid the rocks, not realizing those rocks are inflation. If I could use that as an analogy. But as bitcoiners are like, we can just get off the tree, out of the tree. We don't have to have rocks thrown at us.
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Jake Roquet
That makes sense. You said something in there that's interesting to me. You said, bitcoin is a story. And I wonder if somebody. If you were explaining to somebody who is, let's say, on the newer side of coming to understand bitcoin, and they heard you say that, and they said, what is the bitcoin story? How would you answer that question?
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Terrence Michael
The bitcoin story, similar to, you know. Well, without using an analogy, the bitcoin story is that you were born and meant to be somebody. Whether you believe in destiny or whether it's based on your own talents and choices and sacrifices, there's a person that you were meant to be. And the story is that someone or something is constantly trying to keep you from being that person or being who you want to be, showing up as the person you want to be. And they don't tell you that. But the story of bitcoin is, here is who you're supposed to be. Here's who you want to be. Here's the path from A to Z. You know, you're born A, you die Z. And you know, you want to kick maximum ass in Between. And Bitcoin allows you to kick maximum ass between A and Z, but the system doesn't want you to kick maximum ass in between disturbs and it disrupts the sort of ecosystem that the bankers want you to be in. It's really all about the bankers, you know, and it's funny, you can even. You can watch something like, you know, like if you watched Game of Thrones, like at the end of. At the end of it, when you step back, you're like, okay, wow. And it's actually a perfect title, Game of Thrones because it was just a game that the bankers were playing. It never, you know, the Lannisters like all of this stuff. It didn't matter. It wasn't really wasn't about them. In the end. It was which banks were. Were willing to lend money to who and what money did they want to extract from others, and that was it. We were all just pawns or. Yeah, they were all just pawns.
- [11:21]
Jake Roquet
I've used that, the Game of Thrones analogy too, for explaining Bitcoin and saying since basically, since 2008, you could argue exactly when. But basically saying, like, the global Game of Thrones for the next reserve currency is on, and bitcoiners are a group in that game saying, hey, we want a neutral reserve asset. We want to fight for something where we. Where we have an option where we're no longer slaves to the person who's amassed the most military force to point the guns at people and say, you have to use my money. And saying, we're the group that's saying, hey, what if for this next epoch of humanity, nobody controlled, nobody was in charge of that, Nobody was enslaving everybody else, you know, And I think that, that, you know, it's in. It's. And it's a game we got to. We got to win. Like, and it's not guaranteed that we win by any means. Sometimes bitcoiners are like, bitcoin is so great. It's inevitable. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But if, like, if the story's not told and people, it's just consensus. All of these things, like, what ends up being the money is merely a matter of consensus. It's like, if we don't get the word out, tell the right story, and a key part of that story being like, why is bitcoin what it is? How does it give property rights to 8 billion people in a way that has never been seen before in history? We need to preserve that, because if we don't preserve that, it probably won't kill bitcoin. But if you harm the decentralization and security of bitcoin, it's going to end up as another thing ruled by an individual, a small group, those sorts of things too. And so I think that that's the right frame is we got to stay in the game and we got to be telling the right story too.
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Terrence Michael
Yeah, story is everything. Story and emotion. People don't really buy things or acquire things for other than. Than the way it makes them feel. And they like the story that it tells about them. And you can think of even superficial things, whether it's the car you drive or the shirt you wear or whatever. It's like you, you know brands, you're like, I want, you know, this says something about me. It says something about me when I drink from this specific water bottle. It says something about me using this computer. You know, we, we. We like to broadcast and signal to the world who we are. And we do that with the things we talk about, the things we are important to us, the things we, you know, acquire. And I think bitcoin tells a story like right away, at least to like to you and I, we know when we meet someone who's a bitcoiner, we already, there's a shorthand. I already, I already know so much about you. We probably share similar values. We probably think certain way. We're probably critical to a certain extent. We're a little distrustful of, you know, we want to verify things. And some people are like that already and they don't realize it like there. I think there are bitcoiners out there that don't own bitcoin. You know, it's like they're amongst us and us telling the story will reach them.
- [14:19]
Jake Roquet
Yeah. So the story. I'd like to get into a clip of this. So I want to go through the whole hero's journey with you, but a clip from your keynote at the bitcoin conference that it's sort of fast forward for the, for those who might not make it all the way through the conversation. I want to fast forward to the climax now. So I'm breaking some storytelling rules, you know.
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Terrence Michael
But no, it's like Deadpool. You show the ending first and it's the best way to tell a story, to tell the ending and then say, here's how we got there.
- [14:48]
Jake Roquet
We're dropping right into the right as we're about to head into the abyss. You know, this is. Yeah, I'll just let it play. It'll speak for itself here and this
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Narrator/Clip Speaker
is because we know bitcoin is a completely different world. It's a world of rules and everything else. Those NFTs, the altcoins, they all belong in the world of rulers. And because of that, bitcoin is only going to go up over time against everything else. So we need to find our Justice League. We need to find our Avengers. They went through the Mount Gox hack. They went through the block size wars. They lost bitcoin on a paper wallet.
- [15:24]
Jake Roquet
A quick pause here. Who is, who. Who do you think of when you think of your. Your Justice League, the Avengers you've been developing in the bitcoin space? Like, who are the standout people for you in that way?
- [15:34]
Terrence Michael
That's a good question. And, you know, it's funny because it. It shifts depending where you are in your story. You know, for me, when I first came in, you know, I don't. I don't think Michael. Michael Saylor wasn't the prominent one. You know, I came in in 2017, so a lot of it was Andrea's Antonopoulos. But there were people who were immediately what we now, retrospect would call toxic, who were like, you know, you got to stay away from this. What are you doing? You know, messing with xrp, you know, stay away from Ethereum. And I just thought, man, you guys are so rude. No one talks like that in the FIAT world. Like, what do you care? Like, I bought Apple stock or Nvidia stock. No one's like, what are you, you know, a. And I was just like, this. This is, you know, I just. And I thought people were really rude, and I just. And I started to learn. I was like, oh, wait a minute. I need these people. These people are who are going to keep me away from. From the scams.
- [16:36]
Jake Roquet
Unexpected allies.
- [16:38]
Terrence Michael
Exactly.
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Narrator/Clip Speaker
Yeah.
- [16:39]
Terrence Michael
Like, now my Justice League is an entirely, you know, new and different set of people. But I also hadn't met anyone in person. So for me, it was. It was books, it was pod. It was some YouTube videos. It was everyone from, you know, Troy Cross and Daniel Batten, where I learned a lot about, you know, energy and mining. It was someone like Breedlove and, you know, the Money series. It was someone like D, where I was learning the technicals about how private keys and wallets actually work. And it was, you know, it was, at the time was Peter McCormick.
- [17:15]
Narrator/Clip Speaker
He was.
- [17:15]
Terrence Michael
He was the big podcast. And I would just. Would go to that religiously, and good or bad, I. You know, that's where I found. I mean, I unfortunately listened to that and found BlockFi, you know, because Zach Prince, the head of BlockFi, was on there. I thought this sounds amazing, you know, because of the fiat brain. Where's, where's the cash? I need my yield.
- [17:33]
Jake Roquet
Yeah, yeah. And that's, that's one of the points where I was watching this that I wanted to end off on. We'll get to it. But I think it's an important, it's an important bear market lesson for everyone to think about is the like, if you have, if you have a bitcoin product, where yield is coming from, you need to think a lot about where that yield is coming from, essentially. And that was the Celsius, block, fi, whatever. And you know, there's, there's different attempts at different things that will have varying levels of success, but that's something to give long, hard thought, I think.
- [18:04]
Terrence Michael
Well, and you can always have that, but that's just in the fiat system. And it's fine. Any, any of those things you, if you want to take risk on, then that's fine. But you haven't left the system. You've just gone back to the former system that you were trying to leave. And for some people, that's. That's okay.
- [18:19]
Jake Roquet
Yeah. Indeed. All right, let's keep it going on this.
- [18:21]
Narrator/Clip Speaker
We need to find our Avengers. They went through the Mount Gox hack. They went through the block size wars. They lost bitcoin on a paper wallet. And so with our allies, they help us navigate all of the scams because our enemies would rather we spend five years longer trading crypto than going straight up the road to success. This is our test, allies and enemies. And when we get to the end of this phase, we start to approach a deep cave down this rabbit hole. And this is where our minds start to get blowing even more.
- [18:53]
Jake Roquet
And I think approaching the inmost cave, that is the pico bottom of the bear market, you know, which I think I tweeted something yesterday that I think is worth keeping in mind too, which is when you have a bear market draw 75% drawdown, the first 50% is a lot easier than the second. You know, we're 50% down from all time highs. I'm not saying we're going down another 50%, but when that does happen, the second 50% is where you really get gut punched, you know, and this is
- [19:22]
Narrator/Clip Speaker
where our minds start to get blown even more. Many of you here know this, but the normies don't. What happened in 1971, wow. We used to actually have real money
- [19:30]
Terrence Michael
and we were rugged.
- [19:31]
Narrator/Clip Speaker
It was pulled from us. They took our car at the valet stand, and now we just have valet tickets. And they've convinced us that the valet tickets are valuable and that's all we need. And then, of course, they can make as many more valet tickets as they want to give them to themselves first, while we have to work harder for them while they've already bought appreciating assets. But, okay, it's nothing to worry. We're going to get some free stuff. They'll keep us compliant and happy in the short term. And this is why, even in Hollywood, it's like, it's very tough to sell a movie. Your TV show doesn't always get picked up. Duck Dynasty went for 11 seasons for me, but I did equally at 20 other shows where the pilots never went anywhere. So I had to find my side hustle. Thankfully, I was really, really good at real estate. At least I thought I was really
- [20:14]
Terrence Michael
good at real estate.
- [20:18]
Narrator/Clip Speaker
This makes you question everything you own in the FIAT land, and how much of a slave are you to everything you were using just to try to chase and hurdle inflation? And it opens up your eyes to all the interdisciplinary aspects of bitcoin. I didn't really care a lot about game theory or mathematics or philosophy, but I started to once I learned what bitcoin was. We are Timmy Chalamet going deeper into that dangerous desert as he did in Dune. We are Margot Robbie going deeper into the land of humans to see why this special world is so important to her. This is the approach to the inmost cave. And when we get to the end of this area of the cave, we reach our greatest ordeal. And this is where we are really going to be tested and tried. Many people that come into bitcoin leave and go back into crypto or go back to fiat because they can't survive. Stage 8. This is the big man. Oh, mano. Hi, humble. This is when James Franco in the movie 127 Hours had to saw off his arm when he got stuck between two boulders. Hiking.
- [21:20]
Jake Roquet
That part makes me think of you go through these bear markets and that. That song off the arm. That's the position that you took, that you thought was the genius take, and now it's down whatever, and you're like, do I hold on to it? Do I saw off my arm? You know, I've been holding this for so long, you know, that you lever up on something on a loan, and it's like, did I make a mistake? Do I got to close this? You know, those. Those are the decisions that you make in the bear where. When everybody, when bitcoin was going up forever and everybody was acting according to that thesis, you know, you make some calls and then if you do, if it's your first time, even if it's your second rodeo, I'm here for my second, maybe even third cycle, arguably. And still I'm like, dang it, am I really going to have to saw my arm off again?
- [22:05]
Terrence Michael
Yeah, it happens every time. It's always back to the basics, right? You're like, you start to. You look at these public treasury companies or you look at these digital credit products or whatever, and you know, for some people, maybe they work. But, you know, you think, wait a minute, am I. Am I missing out? Everybody's talking about it. Is this a way to make more money, to have money on the side or to get more bitcoin? And inevitably, for most people, you know, you wish you could rewind and go back and say, why did I do that? Why can't I not just sit peacefully with bitcoin? But it's just so hard, right? It's like we, we just, we. We have this sort of this antsiness, you know, and we just feel we need to be doing something because in fiat, you do. You have to be hustling like crazy. And to get rid of that hustle Culture is really, really difficult in bitcoin because a lot of bitcoiners have hustled before they came to bitcoin, and many want to hustle within bitcoin. But, you know, there is no yield in bitcoin. You can't do anything else. That's just bitcoin. All the best you can do is just hustle to sit on your hands and hustle to make fiat to get more bitcoin. But once you have the bitcoin, you can't. You really shouldn't be doing anything fancy with the bitcoin. That's the tough thing. And we're still all going to do it. I mean, I, I'm collateralizing my bitcoin for some loans. Like, I, you know, we all have to interact with in meat space somehow, and we want to hang on to as much bitcoin as we can. But there's no right answer.
- [23:39]
Jake Roquet
All right, let's keep rolling.
- [23:40]
Narrator/Clip Speaker
This is when Tom Hanks in Castaway had a failed rescue attempt, but the pain was that he lost his best friend, Wilson the volleyball. This is when Leonardo DiCaprio in the Revenant saw his son die. He was mauled by a bear. His leg was broken. His Throat was cut, but he eventually won the Oscar for us. This is when a big crisis hit and our faith is gone. Many of us were here during the centralized finance scams of 2020 22. This was the big one for me. Celsius Voyager. I know Puncher was at Celsius blockfi, and that's because in the traditional world that we came from, we're taught to make money while you sleep, put your money to work. Yield made sense to us, but we learned that with actual bitcoin, there isn't any yield. And that if you're getting yield, Puncher learned you are the yield. Thank you, Puncher.
- [24:29]
Jake Roquet
I love how you shout out people the whole way through. There's maybe like, like 10, 12 shout outs. You got on this. That was great.
- [24:36]
Terrence Michael
Yeah, it was great seeing all these people show up. I wasn't expecting. So, yeah, it was fun for me.
- [24:40]
Jake Roquet
Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that there's just. I think that's a good place to wrap that. Overall, I highly recommend the whole talk. We'll link it below. But I think that part struck me as really pertinent right now to where we are, to where all, you know, most bitcoiners are in the experience of, like, okay, we're in the bear market. You're going down through the abyss. There's all these tests coming your way, and those are some good lessons you've pulled from previous bear markets that I think are worth pulling up and reminding people of today.
- [25:11]
Terrence Michael
Yeah, it's always the same ones. And, you know, I feel so bad, like, when. When we were over 100k after we hit it like six times and we were heading up to 125, just briefly, there were all these new people coming into the space. And, you know, I was educating them and talking to them. And, you know, I run this morning show for two hours every morning and. And I just thought, you know, we're going up so fast at the moment. This is going to be their moment. Just like me. Just like so many people, you know, so when I came in 2017, it was 11,700 straight to 19 8. And it's like, what's going on? And I couldn't catch up with them. Boom. 3,000, you know, and I'm like, it's, you know, and so I'm just like, be careful, dca, you know, and a lot. And so a lot of these newer people, there's a huge cohort that just recently came in. You know, they're all way underwater just in an exchange rate. But I'm like, look, one bitcoin equals one bitcoin. You still have it. And now you can just keep acquiring more for less. It's like the people that are like, what? We've been the same price for the last four or five years. Yeah. But you're up about 30, 40% if you've been DCA because you're catching all of the big drops we've had. So, yeah, it's like, you know, everyone wants to catch up. And I think that's why so many people are moving to AI and they're like, I want something faster. I didn't get into bitcoin early enough and now it seems like it's moving slow. You know, what can I do? And this is, this is the problem. And, you know, I've watched a lot of people sell bitcoin and put it into these public treasury companies when they were coming out. They're like, this is. This is going to be great. And I'll come right back to bitcoin. And at least it's a bitcoin company and it's been painful.
- [26:47]
Jake Roquet
Let's. I'd like to go through the, the whole thing with you now, the whole hero's journey, and just have you, you know, talk through lessons you've learned, patterns you've recognized, that sort of thing that map onto the bitcoiners experience. So we have the known world and the unknown world and the separation, the initiation, the return. I'll put up a graph on this for those who are listening so they can just get a look at it while we're talking through it. First is the call to adventure. How do you relate this?
- [27:18]
Terrence Michael
Oh, you want me to go through all the steps?
- [27:19]
Jake Roquet
Yeah, I think it'd be interesting to take it step by step.
- [27:22]
Terrence Michael
Okay, well, let me. So slow me down or stop me then if you want, because I. I'll. I'll try to whip through it then. Right, because the whole talks there. Okay, so the first world, your ordinary world, that's us in a. In a FIAT world. That's the life before we ever heard the. The word bitcoin. And we all remember step two. And that's when we got the call to adventure. That's the first time we did hear bitcoin. And we thought, what. What is this bitcoin? Most of us were like, I don't know, it sounds technical and computer science y. I'm not technical. And so stage three, we all refuse the call. Every single. No one heard the word bitcoin and just, you know, dumped their entire net worth into it and reallocated the capital.
- [28:06]
Jake Roquet
It's always drug dealer money. It's a scam. It's, you know, nobody's ever like, oh, digital sound money that cannot, you know, property rights that cannot be infringed. Nobody goes straight there when they hear
- [28:17]
Terrence Michael
the, yeah, yes, ask anyone. And they'll be like, oh, well, I first heard about it in 2014, but I didn't do anything. You know, there's always that story. It's like, yeah, and that's, and that's the way it should be. So we all refuse the call. And that's because we all need our mentor. And it doesn't have to be a person. Like I was saying earlier, it can be a podcast, it can be a book. We need to learn what it is, because until we do, we're not going to be convicted enough to, you know, to acquire enough with our mentor. And for me, it was the Guy Swan podcast. It was called Bitcoin Audible. I listened to it over and over and over again because I hadn't even heard about Austrian economics, about sound money theory, about hard money. I was not a gold guy. I don't, I've never known anyone in my life that's owned gold, you know, so it's like, I didn't come from that school where, you know, some bitcoiners did. I was very fiat minded. I'm just like, yeah, earn more dollars. You know, that's. That's what we do, you know, get, get my name on the door, get a better title, you know, get higher fees. You know, that's all it was. It was dollars, dollars, dollars, dollars. I even wrote a book all about this, just about hustling and making more money and, you know, put your money to sleep, all that stuff. So I was that guy. But anyways, we find our mentor. The mentor is what helps us cross over into this new, special world. And, and whether that's a person again or a thing, we have to have that. Someone has to take our hand and let us first dip our toe. But the problem is, the minute we get there, we are immediately tested. And that's where it's like, oh, you know, here's a better bitcoin, here's a faster bitcoin. Earn, yield, look at shiny NFTs, all of that stuff. And we all do it. And that's why it's like, as much as I hate crypto, it's like, well, we all kind of went through that. So I, I hate to come down on people. I Want to educate them. But, you know, I. I did it too.
- [30:04]
Narrator/Clip Speaker
We.
- [30:05]
Terrence Michael
Most of us got wrecked. Right.
- [30:07]
Jake Roquet
You must coining phase, you know, you should call out other shitcoiners and blah, blah, blah. Very important. But also too, it's like, you got to remember that you were there. I remember when RFK was going through this. This was. I met him when he came on to the. The what Is Money? Show back in the day. And. And I was like. I could tell he was still figuring it out, you know, but. But I was like. And then it was only six months later where he was at the bitcoin conference, quoting Jason Lowry, talking from the stage. I'm not left or I'm not red, I'm not blue. I consider myself orange. You know, and so you just needed to give him a sec. But like, a couple months before he came on the show, he went to a. I think he was like a
- [30:44]
Terrence Michael
Doge or an Ethereum thing.
- [30:46]
Jake Roquet
Ethereum conference. Some. Yeah, right. Yeah. And everybody. And there was just no, like, it was just all of the response from the bitcoiners was so, like, hateful and like, repulsive that there's a lot of people who. They experience that and they go, I don't even actually understand this. I don't get what's going on here. But, like, these people are mean. So I'm leaving. And it's like, that's not helpful. You know, like that there's, you know. And you want to say, hey, that's stupid. Don't, don't. Whatever. Shiba inu. Don't Ethereum. Here's why you don't want to do that. You're gonna get rekt. Blah, blah, blah. It's important to call it out, but you don't got to be like, mean. You know, it's not helpful. It's not helpful for them, it's not helpful for us. It's, you know, and there's quite a bit of that from people who maybe have some of the right idea of being like, hey, you got to call this stuff out so people don't have their livelihoods ruined, which is important. Yeah.
- [31:34]
Terrence Michael
I mean, I think as a trade, any of it is open game, you know, as long as it's legal and you're not hurting anybody. But it's. When they say it's better than bitcoin or a different form of bitcoin, or that it's money, that's where I start to take issue. It's like, it's not money. It's. It's a Company. It's a trade, but it's not money. Do you know you should not be saving in dogecoin?
- [31:55]
Jake Roquet
Yeah.
- [31:56]
Terrence Michael
Anyway, so, yeah, so with that mentor, you cross over into this world. That's where you're fully tested. And because you're tested and to help avoid all these enemies, you want to find your allies. And by the way, all of these steps are what? Every single movie, every single tv, everything you watch, if it's fulfilling and it's satisfying and it's well done, it has to have all of these steps. And I'm telling you, if you find you're like, oh, I saw that movie and it wasn't quite right, or I was watching this TV show, I don't. I started, lost interest. I'm telling you, they skipped a step. It's. There's a step that's missing. Like, it's so critical because it's like you have to struggle. You need these obstacles to overcome. It's not satisfying to just be like, oh, here's our hero on screen. He's just great looking and rich. And then he gets even better looking and more rich. Like, that's not exciting. Yeah, you know, you want the guy who's leaving his job, the guy that's getting divorced, the guy that's about to get retired. You want, you want the guy who's, who, who needs a transformation. And you know, he's struggling and you know he's a good guy and you want to help, you want to see him get there. And that's what us bitcoiners go through. So once we find our allies, with our allies, we then start to approach the cave. That's, that's the top of the rabbit hole. That's where we're like, what the heck? You know, I just thought you could say, you know, what is a toaster? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, okay, that's a toaster. It's like, man, with bitcoin, you're like, oh, man. Man, I'm blown away. It's like now I'm suddenly thinking about computer science and economics and history and philosophy. And it's like, what? Like, I had no idea I was going to be doing this. And it's why a lot of us, yourself included, like, we sort of become these educators, you know, it's like, why, when were we ever going to do that? I never wanted to educate about anything. But it's like, it's so complex and you want to tell your family and your friends and everybody else. So you go through this ordeal where you are where your reward is learning all of this stuff, finally putting all of the pieces together of this elephant that everyone's touching from different sides. You're like, oh, okay, now I see all the different aspects of what Bitcoin is. That yes, it is money, but yes, it is also a database. Yes, it's a ledger, yes, it is software. And you start, all these pieces start to come together and, and that's your big reward. But. But, you know, the story never ends there. In every movie and every TV show, once you get that, that secret formula, whatever it is, you head back to your friends and family. Because we still leave live in meat space. So even us bitcoiners, we have to come back and that's when we want to orange pill them. Whether it's at Thanksgiving dinner table, wherever it is. You know, we never turn down a chance to talk about Bitcoin. And it's during that road back that we have to be careful because we can sometimes forget about the principles and the properties and the fundamentals that we've learned about bitcoin. Because now we're back in the fiat world where people are talking about all these other things, whether it's SpaceX or this four unit apartment building, or, you know, all these things that were maybe the things you tried to get away from in the first place.
- [34:58]
Jake Roquet
And that's the. I like the other frame too. It's not in this diagram I have up here, but the returning with the elixir. It's like I've gone into the unknown world, you know, oftentimes in. Sometimes in movies or books, it's like you enter into the spiritual realm and then you return with the wisdom. You enter that you, if you're a knight, you slay the dragon, you return with the treasure. If you. That's it, right? You return with the. And then it's. And then there's the hard part of like, you know, will you take the elixir that I'm returning with? There's one that I, that we passed over before the road back. Here in this diagram I have. We have death of the mentor, battle with the brother and the temptations. The death of the mentor. One is one that stands out to me a bit here in terms of. I think in Bitcoin there's a lot of conversations about killing your heroes, essentially. And I wonder what you could say about that. The slaying of the heroes in the bitcoin space. Did you have to do that yourself personally, at any point in time? Are you seeing people that need to do that now, what would you say about that?
- [35:56]
Terrence Michael
Yes, because you'll learn something. You know, even though a lot of us are all saying the same thing, we're saying it at different times, and we're all sort of these different portals. Like, you're a portal and I'm a portal for the pre coiners coming into this world, but if they happen to be talking to you or they meet you before me, or vice versa, you're that portal. So you could say these three things that they're like, you just blew my mind. This is insane. Whether you're telling them about proof of work or the Byzantine general's problem, whatever. And even though other people could say it, they heard it from you. So you now become the hero. And so then if you, let's say, decide to leverage your bitcoin at like 60 or 70% or something, that, you know, might seem very unhealthy and scary. They think, well, well, Jake's doing it. This has got to be an incredible thing. And if they get wiped out, it's like, yeah, you have to slay your heroes. I mean, people that I looked up to when I came in to the space, and it could have been Preston Pish, it could have been Lynn Alden and all these people that are great people, I won't name exactly what the thing was, but there were certain things that they promoted or thought were a good idea that we now have learned are not at all. And so you have to like, sort of slay that aspect of, oh, everything they say and do. You know, some people are doing that with Michael Saylor right now. They're saying, oh, he said, you know, stretch was this money market. It's savings, it's risk free. I'm editorializing. He didn't use those exact words. But now they're like, wait. But, you know, now it's. It's de pegging or it's so far under par, you know, is it working? And, you know, I personally think it's going to work out fine. But it's like, yeah, you just. You can't hang. Just. You can't. You can't hang your hat on the person. You gotta listen to what they're doing. And that's why I think returning to the basics is super important. Because, you know, a lot of us want to work in bitcoin. When we come into Fiat, we're like, man, I love bitcoin so much. I would like to just work in bitcoin. I don't. I want to work for a bitcoin company. And I have a lot of colleagues and a lot of friends that went and worked for bitcoin companies. And some of those companies started to get fancy and it's like it's tarnished their brand a little bit. And so, you know, maybe they should have slayed their heroes in a sense. But, yeah, that's.
- [38:26]
Narrator/Clip Speaker
We all.
- [38:26]
Terrence Michael
We all have to do that.
- [38:28]
Jake Roquet
Yeah. Yeah. And I think a key kind of going pretty much exactly what you said. But one thing that stood out for me is like, you might have somebody who maybe they were your portal you learn a bunch of stuff from, and it's like, okay, maybe they actually know a lot about bitcoin, but you should pay attention to what they think about the other areas of their life and how the other areas of their interest in their life play out and think about how that might even apply to their frame of talking about bitcoin and how your frame might be different. You know, for me, I think it's always really important to be like, I'm super passionate about bitcoin for all the reasons that we all talk about all the time and we understand. I don't like people stealing from each other. I don't like, like sucking the life force from other humans who don't realize in this, like, vampire, like fashion, however. So I'm very passionate about it. But it's just money. It's just money. Like, the things that have been true about money for the past 5,000 years for humanity are still true about money. If you put it at the highest place in your life, your life will fall apart. Don't do that. You know, like, it's not. If you. If money is a tool and you should use it as a tool, but if you make it the destination, you will not be fulfilled.
- [39:37]
Terrence Michael
No, absolutely. I mean, think about it. No one wants bitcoin. We want what bitcoin can get us. So, yeah, it's not the destination. You know, money is just an authentication token. It's just a placeholder. It says, this is. This authenticates that you did work in the past, and it's a chip. You get to turn it in for work in return. That's it. Like, this is the other half of the trade. And you're sort of on pause because you've collected the money, but you just don't want. Don't need to spend it all on day one. And so you want to hang on to it. And that's. That's the entire story and that's the entire issue is that that authentication Token that you're hanging on to starts, you know, disappearing. Like in Back to the Future, when he picks up and looks at the photo and his parents start disappearing, and it's just like, it's not authenticating anymore. And so all bitcoin does is it makes sure that it is. It is what it is. Exactly. The work that you did, I painted that barn for nine hours, and I only need two hours to spend. Great. The seven hours of that barn left that you're holding. 10 years, 50 years, 1,000 years. That's what it needs to represent, and that's just being honest.
- [40:44]
Jake Roquet
Indeed, indeed. So we have the temptation on the road back, you know, that might be. I don't know. There's a lot of things that can fit into that. Does anything stand out to you for that?
- [40:53]
Terrence Michael
Well, you know, for me, my temptation, the road back were NFTs. Like, I knew all about bitcoin. I was learning everything I could. I was so hardcore. But on the road back, these NFTs. And everyone was like, yeah, NFTs. And I thought, oh, well, I could just take a little bit of bitcoin and get like. It seems kind of fun. It's like, okay, it's artwork. You know, I'm trying to justify to myself that it's something. And then I have friends of mine that are not bitcoiners, but complete degens, and they're, like, buying and selling these things like crazy. And I'm getting these text messages. I just made $9,000 today.
- [41:28]
Jake Roquet
Whoa.
- [41:28]
Terrence Michael
I made 15,000. I'm like, on what? And it's like, on this, I think, oh, my God. And I'm like, you know, it's just. It's so hard. And all I had to do is say, no. I know this is wrong. I know this isn't money. I know. I know. It's just trading a hot potato. I know it's designed for someone to get money and everyone else to lose. It's. And, yeah. And, you know, and I still have a bunch of those. And the reason I do is because I use them as capital losses whenever I have a capital gain, because I do live off my bitcoin. I'm now on a bitcoin standard, so I hang on to those. And every now and then, I'm like, okay, I'm spending this amount of bitcoin that I need for the year. So, great. So now I'm going to sell some of these NFTs that are worth zero, that were, you know, tens of thousands of dollars. So that's Pain.
- [42:12]
Jake Roquet
Finding some use. Every time I think about it is nice.
- [42:14]
Terrence Michael
Yeah.
- [42:15]
Jake Roquet
Something out of it. Yeah, just I lost a bunch of money. Government. There we go. There's my NFT use case. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So we last couple we have the refusal to return ultimate reward and the master of two worlds. Any standouts from those three?
- [42:35]
Terrence Michael
Well, yeah, I mean, mastering the two worlds is really, is really important because no matter how hardcore bitcoin you get and become, you go full Jeff Booth, you know, full medium of exchange, fully living on bitcoin and living the bitcoin life. Yes. You know, unless you want to become, you know, a hermit in a cave, you, you know, you have your family, you have your friends, you want to go out and do things. And the whole world is fiat. And let's be honest, fiat's not going away in our lifetime or the next lifetime or any like. Governments are always going to want to control the money. Right. And that's why we're going into stable coins 100 and that's why they're pushing them so hard. So being able to navigate those two worlds, that's where people are really. You know, this is the part where I really appreciate everything that Michael Saylor's doing. He is, he really is a visionary. And you know, the, and I'm not sure how to say it nicely, but the certain, you know, idealists or fundamentalists don't understand what Saylor is doing. Now, I don't own any of those products. I don't want any of those products. But he's making a lot of people aware of bitcoin who would never come to bitcoin. And yes, they're not actually holding their private keys to their bitcoin and they're just getting exposure. But I would hope that them getting exposure by it would then lead them to bitcoin. I mean, I got exposure to, to the crypto that got me to bitcoin. I certainly feel like having a share of microstrategy is better than having a share of a dick butt, you know.
- [44:22]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [44:23]
Terrence Michael
So mastering those two worlds is tough. And I think that's hard for a lot of bitcoiners. I mean, I, I am a maximalist in that I think bitcoin is money. You know, that's why my name of my book is Proof of Money. It's why my handle is Proof of Money. My entire thesis is that we've never had money throughout history. There has never actually been money until 2009 when Satoshi launched it on January 3, 2009. That's the first time we've had money. Everything has been an attempt. We've always tried to have money. We did the best that we could. Whatever we could dig up, we could find pluck off of a back a seashell, we could pick up. But finally someone said, wait, what are the properties of money? Let's make it. And of course, the technology didn't exist, right. We now have the Internet and we have the digital world. And so now we were able to do it. And so because of that and because that is such. And because that is such a big idea, it is so, to me, that is so profound that we now have money and that all of the problems are downstream of that. That. That's. That's what we need to protect. With that said, being the master of both worlds is. Is allowing the fiat people to be fiat people. Not everyone see a problem and not everyone want a solution to something that they don't think they have a problem for.
- [45:37]
Jake Roquet
And you don't have to drag each person off the Titanic. It's like you can do anything and let people make their decisions. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [45:45]
Terrence Michael
That's a great. That's a great example. Hey, guys, the. The ship is sinking. Here's a lifeboat. You don't want to jump in because you're enjoying the band. Fine, fantastic. But we're jumping in and I think, I think that's hard. And there's a lot of these people that just scream and yell at these people and, what the fuck is wrong with you? And it's just like now it's, you know, bitcoin is for everyone, but not everyone is going to. Going to use it. I mean, I mean, errors for everybody, but, you know, some people take their lives. I, you know, I don't. I. I don't know. Mastering the both worlds, I think is something that many people that are hardcore bitcoiners can work on. You know, it's like having a better bedside manner with the. With the normies.
- [46:32]
Jake Roquet
Yeah, yeah. And I think there's. That there's a common thing, you know, the known and unknown world side when you see people cross the threshold. For me, it was like, you know, there's that classic clip of Andreas Antonopoulos where he's like, I didn't eat for, like, however many months. And, like, I just was so obsessed with it.
- [46:47]
Narrator/Clip Speaker
Yeah, right.
- [46:48]
Jake Roquet
And that I think for me, like, I had a similar experience of like, once I. There was a couple just, just interesting little life points that made me go, wait a second. Like, is it really all over Is like, the global banking system really doomed? And like, what does that mean? Like, that's gonna change everything. And I, like, moved to Indonesia for four months and was just like, listening, reading, writing, like, like literally hit pause on my life. And then it was like, it was. It was quite literal for me of like, I need to, like, go out and map this and understand it, because I think it's that important. And then.
- [47:21]
Narrator/Clip Speaker
Wow.
- [47:21]
Jake Roquet
And then I came back and then, you know, it went from there. But yes, that's cool. I think that it's important too, to then be like, the master of two worlds is a key piece that maybe even a lot of bitcoiners miss or are still on that path right now. Because I think there can be the utility. And I think the earlier you do this, the more utility there is into being like, I need to drop everything and figure it out. As time goes on, the understanding will become broader and broader. But to go through that process, but then also to be like, okay, I understand, you know, like, you're never going to, like, understand it completely, but be like, I've formulated my opinion and I'm going to return to a well rounded, balanced life and not stay in, like, absolute obsession with this thing for 10, 15 years, whatever it is. Because. Because it's. Because then that returns to the idea of like, okay, figure it out. But then again, this is a tool. A tool to what end? A tool to what purpose? You know, it's. That's right. That's a. That's a key piece.
- [48:18]
Terrence Michael
Yeah, I mean, it's ultimately to improve your life. You know, an example is that, you know, a lot of us. Us, you know, including Mark Moss, have tried to divest of some real estate and not have to seek investment or income real estate as much because of the friction and because of, you know, not really having true sovereignty with it. And there's just an easier, more peaceful way with Bitcoin. And it, you know, accretes much, much faster on a. On a long time frame. But at the same time, it's like, you know, you need to. You need to earn your fiat some way to acquire and save in bitcoin in the first place. And if you're skilled at that, which, you know, I assume Mark is, and I was, it's like, it benefited us. And so even though it was a lot of work and there was a lot of disruption and a lot of distortion and, you know, someone can get philosophical about whether that's good for, you know, younger generations and raising the prices, but we worked with what we. What we had, or continue to work with what we have.
- [49:19]
Jake Roquet
You play the game that was laid out in front of you, essentially.
- [49:22]
Terrence Michael
That's exactly it.
- [49:23]
Jake Roquet
Yeah, I. That's something I want to get a little bit more deep into with you is like your whole kind of the whole story from real estate, bro, to becoming a bitcoiner, you know, to like you. You were in Hollywood, you became kind of the real estate guy for your Hollywood friends. Because I know this. Working in Hollywood for a while, you get a gig, you make great money for a little while, and then it's like, okay, I can pay my rent for two and a half months. That's great, but where's my next job? Or, you know, that sort of thing. You cycle through jobs and contracts in that way. How did. Can you tell me that story from there to. You learned the real estate game. You became like, the plug for your Hollywood homies for, like, I got you. When it comes to real estate, we can stabilize your income a bit. And then where you ended up. Yeah, that whole. That whole journey.
- [50:12]
Narrator/Clip Speaker
Yeah.
- [50:12]
Terrence Michael
The short version is that, you know, it's like, I made very good money in Hollywood, but, you know, we're a traveling circus, and there's these huge hiatuses. Your show doesn't get picked up, your movie doesn't get sold. You're pounding the pavement for years and years and years, and you're spending your own money to try to get it going. It's very entrepreneurial. Every movie or every TV show is its own corporation. You know, you own it, and you got to acquire all the rights and do everything you can. So that when that happened, I needed a place to store that value. In hindsight, I realized that's what I was looking for. And for me, it was real estate. There was really nowhere else to put it to hurdle inflation. And inflation was pretty high. And so I didn't have. I didn't even own a hammer for my first house, but it was so dilapidated, the walls were missing. I mean, on the first night, you know, it was raining through the roof, and my friends didn't even want to visit me. They're like, is my car safe? I can't park here. I'm like, it's okay. I'm having a party, you know, Come on. But I did everything I can, and I learned how to fix it up. And when I fixed it up, I just. I sold it and made a really good profit. I thought, oh, I'm going to do this again and again and again and again. And because I was single or, you know, I had girlfriends, but, you know, it was like, you know, kids or whatever. So it's like, it was very easy to just, like, move wherever. It's just like selling. We're moving here, moving here, moving there. And I was just going down the line and, you know, flipped a ton of homes. And part of the problem was that was taking me away from my first love, which was Hollywood. I was starting to turn down certain things. Or I'm just like, oh, I'm in the middle of this housing project and just like, wait a minute, what am I doing? Because, like, I don't even care about this house. I'm now selling it. And I just poured all my time in there. And Fridays and Saturday nights, my friends are all out, and I'm like, walking up and down Home Depot aisles, right? Trying to figure out how to plumb or something. And so I realized in hindsight that the friction. There was so much friction there, and I really didn't want to be doing that. I was good at it. And now I owned all the tools and the truck and everything was just like, I didn't want to be that guy. And so I wanted to do more Hollywood stuff. And that's partly when I was leaving film and moving to tv. And that's partly why, because with tv, I didn't have to wait as long for a project to go. I could walk into a network, I could pitch an idea, and like, in two months, we're shooting. And I was like, ah, this is amazing. And my agents had told me, they're like, TV is the producer's medium. You're a producer going to tv. What are you doing in film? It's like, you're just. You're dealing with budgets and markets and, you know, international sales and all this. And I'm like, yeah, but I need to raise the money. But. Yeah, but they're like, but, but, you know, how creative are you? And in tv, I get to write the pilot, I shoot the pilot, I direct the pilot. I was like, oh, my God, this is fantastic. But while I was doing all of that flipping and whatnot, you know, I couldn't get loans. I was having to get hard money loans. And I said, what the heck is going on? And so I got my broker's license, I studied, I learned how, you know, not real estate brokers, but mortgage brokers. I'm like, I'm just going to finance my houses. And my background is all business. I have a business degree. And so I formed a mortgage company, and I Became the Hollywood dude. And, you know, tons of people in Hollywood have their mortgages or refinances because of me, and still do. I still have the company. And so doing all of that, but not loving real estate, not loving the mortgage business. I do it to help out people, but I don't market at all. I've never done an ad in my life. I could care less if it runs or not. I found bitcoin. And when I found bitcoin, it's like, oh, this solves the whole problem. I don't have to be the mortgage broker. I don't have to be the real estate guy. I could tell story, and I could save in bitcoin. Save bitcoin, tell story. And now I love bitcoin so much that I'm just trying to tell story within bitcoin to educate bitcoin. But I still have my toe over here in Hollywood. I still have some, you know, documentaries and some features and TV shows, and I've made a few things while being in bitcoin. But I also get to be very selective with my time. I get to say no a lot. I get to book out my calendar, you know, and I get to sort of do the things that all of the mentors before me and all the allies before me had said bitcoin will give you. And it's those. These things to. To show up as who you want to be, to have a peaceful life, to not have to chase a second job, a third job, to have to be trading your time for things that you don't want to do. Like, you know, I used to have to say yes to everything because I was worried, and especially in Hollywood, of opportunity. And. And it'd be like, hey, here's this cool thing you can do. And I'm like, ah, all right. You know, because the paycheck is so high. But it's just like, you know, I didn't want to be doing, you know, whatever, Real housewives of Atlanta or whatever. But it's like, you. You're chasing the dollar. And with bitcoin, I don't. I don't have to think about that anymore, because what bitcoin ultimately does, at least for me, it gives me the confidence, 100% confidence that I can retire, because I know what will be there. Doesn't matter how much anything inflates. Everything gets cheaper for me in bitcoin terms. And so, you know, in fiat, it used to be like, oh, once I get a million dollars, wow, I'm going to retire. Like, you can't retire for a million dollars. It's like what happened if you. And if you and someone who retired at million was spending, spending, spending, they're screwed now after Covid. And so like, okay, so now it's the number 2 million, now it's number 3 million. Like, even that, it sounds crazy, right? And where your studio is, you want, the nice house that you want is probably 4 million. And so, you know, you go up there into a talega or wherever up in the hill. So it's like, it's bitcoin, though. However, in bitcoin terms, it's like, ah, wait a minute. I. I can, I can retire as long as I live like this and blah, blah, blah. And, and I subscribe to the, to the fire system of financial independence, retire early and you know, shaving off 4% a year. It's like, you know, I don't have to worry. And so it's like, I can go, I can go do what I want. I can go skateboard down by the beach, throw rocks in the water if I want. But, you know, I want to create. I want to do things because as a bitcoiner also inspires me to like, build and. Because now I know that I can create and I can save and I can innovate because I'm not having to consume and spend and gamble.
- [56:28]
Jake Roquet
Right, right. And even at that stage, you know, even at the before retirement stage to even. I've seen this in myself, I've seen this in my friends. I have a good close group of buddies that I've worked with in the bitcoin space for a while now. Four, four years or something like that. And I've seen it among this whole group where the more bitcoin you stack, the more you. The more you have the capacity to go. I actually don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. Sorry. I don't want to do it. No, you know, like, I don't want to do it. Yeah. And it's just like, you know, like, I'd love to make a deal. I'd love to make something work. I want this to work out. But like, they, they start to go like, ah, they have. You have more capacity to be like, you know what? I actually. No, I don't want to do that. I'm so sorry. You know, and like, you know that.
- [57:11]
Terrence Michael
No, it's so powerful because then you're.
- [57:14]
Jake Roquet
Because you're never negotiating unless you can say no, right? If you can't say no, you're not. You're not really negotiating, but if you can say no and bitcoin gives you more of the capacity to be like, to do that, then your negotiations end up going way better. You end up in positions that you're happier to be in that, like, this is a better fit for me because I said no to the things that would have made me miserable and made me not do this job well or whatever it is. And so I think that that's a key piece. Yeah. And then the retirement piece of it, too, is the real. Why they call it fu. Money is the real. I'm not exactly in the I could walk and never do anything that generates me income for the rest of my life phase of my life yet. So, you know, we're still grinding. But. But when you are there, then it's just, now you only do things that you want. Now you only work on things that bring you joy, that bring you the deeper fulfillment that, like, you feel like are meaningful and matter in the long term, you know, in the true long term.
- [58:07]
Terrence Michael
Yeah. 100% agree. And I. And I think everyone gets there once they're in bitcoin long enough. But it also. The great thing is that I find, like, with a lot of my colleagues and other bitcoiners and, you know, bitcoiners even older than me, they. They don't just stop and just. They don't just, like, sit on a chair and drink a beer is, you know, as good as that sounds, you know, And I've retired a couple of times in my life. Even before bitcoin, I did well enough in movies that I retired very young. And after a year of skateboarding around, I was bored out of my mind. And then I retired again in real estate, after real estate or during real estate. And again, I got bored on my mind. Like, I just. So it depends. Again, like, the. The money problem, I think, just reveals who you are. I mean, just like the opposite. Like, you could get super drunk and.
- [58:56]
Narrator/Clip Speaker
Right.
- [58:56]
Terrence Michael
You're like one of your buddies. Like, okay, now I know who you really are. Right? There's no more inhibition. And so who I am is I have to. I have to be building. I have to be creating. I have to. You know, and even if I don't make any money for it, and I still don't care. I was like, hey, I want to go make a video today. That sounds good fun. Like, that's how I want to spend my time.
- [59:14]
Jake Roquet
You make these. These videos doing exactly what you just said, skating by the. By the beach and talking to your phone. And stuff like that. What, what made you decide to do like that style of video? And are there any, like, standout videos that you made in that way?
- [59:31]
Terrence Michael
When I first came into bitcoin, there were all of these people sort of sitting behind a desk and talking about bitcoin. And I think found that appealing. I thought, oh, that's pretty cool. You know, they're just setting up their own little lights and mic and just talking about bitcoin. And I love talking about bitcoin. Yeah, I mean, yeah, look at you. But you know, you have a, you have a show though, right? You have a nice big branded show. A lot of people were just putting videos on Twitter, just themselves. Like they're just sitting in their chair. And I thought, ah, I have some thoughts. And I'm a writer. I've written, you know, three books I've written my whole life. And I thought, well, I don't know, maybe I should just be writing. And I saw Eric Stacks walking through one of his, like, cannabis farms or something, just talking about bitcoin. And I was like, what is he doing in this cannabis farm? I had no idea his background. He was just talking about bitcoin. And I said, oh, I could do something a little different. Well, what could I do? This difference, like, oh, I love to skate. What if I just record while I'm in motion? It just, I didn't see anyone doing it. I just thought it might be a little different. And so I just started doing that with my thoughts. And I very quickly realized every time I hear enough of a question on X that everyone's talking about or everyone's asking the same question, I'm going to make a video, I'm going to answer that. And for the same reason that I write, it's also for me, it's very selfish in that I want to synthesize my own thoughts. Whenever he was saying, you know, I'll think of something general, like, what is bitcoin mining? I'll be like, okay, what is actual bitcoin mining? Like, let me break down all the components. Like, like just this is it. And I'm gonna say it to a normie. So like, like, my mom understands it and her ladies, you know, her friends understand it. Like, this is it. What am I gonna do it? And because I'm a storyteller, I'm gonna do it through analogy. Like with bitcoin mining, I came up with this whole big TV show. It's a big cook off and the miners are all these cooks and they're cooking for this, this judge who no one knows, right? You know, the bitcoin network, and they have to, you know, hash these potatoes and they don't know what he's gonna like, do I add salt? Do I add a mango? Do I add a coffee? That's the nonce, you know, and then like someone's gonna hit it and boom, you know, and they went. So it's like I come up with these things that helps me really, really understand it better, but then explains it to people at a basic level. Like, oh, I'm now. I now get what SHA 256 is. Or I now understand what a private key is. Or I understand what a UTXO is. And so something that's technical, because I'm not technical, I'll take it into a regular thing. And then, you know, I record the video and then when I edit it, It's. It's about 10 minutes. And yeah, they do, they do. You know, hundreds of thousands to a million views per video. So I'm grateful that for the people that like them and share them and. And I just have a blast doing them. I make no money. I have zero sponsors again. Bitcoin just affords me the time to be able to do that.
- [62:31]
Jake Roquet
That's super cool. I wonder what role writing has played. So you've written three books. I'd love to hear the overview of your thesis for proof of money after this too. But I'm curious what role writing has played in your development over the course of the years, like in your success in your careers. You've written a few books in your personal life. Like, how do you approach writing and what impact has it had on you?
- [62:59]
Terrence Michael
Huge. I think it's everything because it's not only just like publishing books. It's like I do what's called journaling in the morning. I write down my thoughts and everything that I'm thinking or has been bothering me or that kept me up at night or whatever. And then I throw it away. And it allows me to sort of dump and process, because as you write, you process. And so I get it all out and I throw it away. And I know no one's ever going to see it, but I just get it out. And also, you know, writing is not writing. Like, writing really is thinking. And, you know, it's walking in your neighborhood, around the block, and just thinking, and that's really writing. Like, the typing is just typing. And then editing is writing. And what it's done for me is it's helped, you know, copyright writing. Is so important. And it's helped me really say, do I really understand this concept or do I really understand what I'm trying to do in my life? Do I really understand what I want to do or what this is or what that is? Because until you can write it and succinctly and make it make sense and it's lucid and clear, you're not there yet. Like, you don't really. You don't really get it. You don't, you know, and so whether it was a real estate thing I was doing, or whether it was like a TV show I was trying to sell, you know, or like putting together a deck, it was all about the writing. And it's just like, well, if this isn't clear or if I can't say, like, anytime I would say to someone, like, oh, it's. It's a little too confusing or, you know, it's too hard to say to you real quick, it's like, I don't understand it enough. It needs to be. You have to have that elevator pitch and you have to be able to say something quickly and easily. And they should understand it. Like, the onus is on you, you know, it's not on them. It's not like, oh, are you stupid? You didn't hear what I just said. It's like, you need to say it better. And so that's what I love about writing, because I can think I know something in my head and I write it down. It's not clear. It's just like, edit, edit, edit, and stay away from. I mean, maybe this isn't popular, but I say stay away, stay away from AI. Because I really takes that thinking away from you, at least when it comes to writing it. You know, it could be helpful if you're looking for a general idea or
- [65:06]
Jake Roquet
structure, but maybe the research side or. Yeah, that's. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [65:10]
Terrence Michael
But, yeah, just like Googling or whatever.
- [65:12]
Jake Roquet
Yeah, right. Especially if you want to be able to. Like you said, the effect that writing has on the articulation of your speech, if you want to be able to communicate something properly, you've got it. It's got to be in relation words.
- [65:25]
Terrence Michael
That's the key word, by the way. And I think that's what really separates someone from being successful or not in life, you know, outside of Bitcoin, is articulation. Can you articulate? And surprisingly, a lot of people can't.
- [65:40]
Jake Roquet
It's very hard. It doesn't happen on accident. You don't get the capacity on accident. It's something you have to work, especially the more complex systems problems, things you have to talk about. You have to write it down, bounce it off people, Edit it in your own way, but also edit it in a way that is collaborative, that is dialogue where you talk about to this person, you talk to this person, you talk to this person, you get their feedback, you take it back, you adjust the frame. You know, you maybe have a version you would explain to this type of person, and a version you'd explain to this type of person, you know? Yeah, writing is. I don't. I don't do enough of it nowadays. I spent a few years doing a lot of it. I'd say like 2020 to maybe 2024. I was like, reading, writing, thinking, listening was a massive part of my life. And it's something I'm. I'm working on reintegrating right now. And it's starting the same way. You said of just like waking up in the morning. I call it free riding. But I just sit and I have a little reading nook in my place now. A little essential oil diffuser, some peppermint in the morning, you know, read a philosophy book or whatever and just. And just do some. Just dump some thoughts. And I also have, like, a meditation practice that I go about that's somewhat similar where I think of it as something I heard Rogan say of. I've studied, like, a couple different types of meditation, but I remember Rogan back in the day talking about his meditation as like, checking his mental inbox. And so that's my default mode of meditation now is like, sit down, clear my mind, gain power over the impulse to check your phone, check your this, check your that. I do, like, a mindfulness practice of, like, notice, release. I notice there's the lawnmower going outside. There's I hear the ac, I hear the whatever. I notice release, notice, release. And then when something hits me that it's like, oh, I really gotta deal with that. I write it down and then I can release it, you know, and then I have a little notebook next to my little meditation spot where I can always go there and be like, what are the things that are bothering me the most right now? Oh, yeah, that's right. Here's my mental inbox. Yeah, there's those. And so, yeah, just both of those things. But the main thing being trying to get back to more in depth writing, writing to sort out my psyche, and then writing to develop ideas, I think is like the next stage. Beyond that, I think it's worthwhile.
- [67:52]
Terrence Michael
Yeah. Yeah, you got to get it out. Otherwise it just ruminates in there and it's not helpful. And it causes anxiety and stress. And so, yeah, it's not hard to optimize your life. You just need these little sort of
- [68:05]
Jake Roquet
personal development tools and just integrate it into your identity. This is what I do. You do it every day. A year later, you're like, wow, a lot's changed. That's great.
- [68:16]
Terrence Michael
Well, it's like stretching. You probably stretch every day. It's so good for your body. But, like, people don't really do it with their. With their mind or the thoughts. And like your. Your mind is often. Often has the answers for everything it's trying to tell you. But people don't, like, take the junk out and say, oh, what? You know, what is it? So it's. It's. I don't know. I think it's like a superpower. It's like, you know, but you're not. It's like when you give advice to a friend or. Or a stranger, it's like, you often can give them great advice, but it's like, well, give yourself advice. Like what. You know, if you were going to talk to yourself, what would you tell yourself to do?
- [68:50]
Jake Roquet
Yeah. And I think. I think also to the integration of, like, the intellectual knowledge and the sort of knowledge that manifests in the body. It's kind of like a funny way to put it, but, like, I noticed that this is something that typically women naturally have more of a knack for and men need to learn more. But sort of the. There's the side of it that's like the gut feeling, you know, like, I have a gut feeling about this and that that maybe is associated with your. I'm spacing on the word very funny. To space on this word, Like your conscience. Guidance. There's a word I'm looking. Intuition. To follow your intuition. It's like that's cognitive in a sense, but also it kind of comes from the body. It's a gut feeling. I've just got this feeling that I should do this. Listening to that type of. Yeah. Integrating that in addition to the intellectual, I think is an important piece of that bit of an aside. We just have a few more minutes here. I wonder if you could, as we're wrapping up, tell me a bit about the book that you wrote, Proof of Money. Yeah. Like the overarching thesis that you have in there, what key points you think are important for bitcoiners now to take from that.
- [70:03]
Terrence Michael
Like I was saying a little bit earlier, my Thesis is just that we haven't had money before. And so since I'm saying, saying to people, look, I know this is shocking, but anything that you've been using doesn't matter where you lived or what time you lived. You could time travel back. You never used money. And because of that, everything else has been broken to different, to higher or lesser degrees, depending on the geography or time period. But now we finally have money. And so I go through 20, like,
- [70:34]
Jake Roquet
why is gold not money? Why is cash not money? How would you answer that?
- [70:40]
Terrence Michael
So gold, gold is not money because it wasn't one. It wasn't created to ever be money. People just picked it up and they chose it. But they chose it because it was the best thing that they could find because it got the closest to the properties that make money. But you know, one of the properties for money are that it should be divisible and it should be portable. Gold is neither of those. And in a digital world, it completely is left behind. And now with technology, you can even replicate gold. We also, you know, don't know the supply of gold. Yes, it's limited in that, you know, we have a universe, but there's all kinds of gold in the universe. And so as we expand and reach further and have higher technology and more, we can get more gold. And it's also money also should be inelastic. And the higher the price of gold goes up, the more deeper we'll dig to get more. So we called it money. We've called a lot of things money, but it wasn't money. I also think that money, perfect money, should also be a currency. Gold is not currency. Money should both be money and a currency, meaning it should be both the store value and a mean of exchange. Gold isn't. I don't know. People are like, oh, well, you know, Bitcoin's only 17 years. Give it some time. Well, gold is 5,000 to 6,000 years old. Who's using it as a medium of exchange? No one. See, so it never happened, Right?
- [72:12]
Jake Roquet
We buy this paper promise from somebody. We've got your gold somewhere, we promise, and we pay them for that. And we hope that actually means we have some claim on some gold somewhere. You know, in this intentionally obscure system where Fort Knox hasn't been audited for forever and blah, blah, blah.
- [72:30]
Terrence Michael
I mean, that's just insane. Yeah, that we. And that's part of the problem actually, that Fort Knox is a perfect example. It's like we hear of something that's so absurd, everyone's jaw drops. But we just sort of get distracted and we go on our way. And it's like we just. We've learned that we're just supposed to let things go.
- [72:48]
Jake Roquet
Yeah. Most of us waiting for the catalyst, some cataclysm to change direction.
- [72:55]
Narrator/Clip Speaker
Yeah.
- [72:56]
Terrence Michael
So anyway, so the book is 21 chapters, and I take people through, you know, a journey that probably other bitcoin books go through as well, on, you know, the petrodollar and what happened in 1971 and, you know, the Nixon shock, as well as explaining inflation and different parts. But also, you know, what. How does the money printer work? What does that mean? Why are. Why are we printing money?
- [73:20]
Jake Roquet
Can you explain the petrodollar piece of that? Those are all. I feel like those people have varying degrees of understanding of those. The petrodollar has always been the most obscure to understand. Yeah. So how would you explain that, how it works to somebody after 1971? Sort of this new arrangement around the petrodollar.
- [73:38]
Terrence Michael
Yeah, for sure. So when we sat down with everybody and we said, listen, we will have the reserve currency of the US Dollar, clearly, all of the other countries, you know, Germany, France, everybody's like, well, wait a minute. Why would we agree to that? You guys get to just print. We have to work for the dollar. You know, get your dollar. And part of the arrangement is that, well, we're going to trade the world's energy, which is oil, in the dollar. And so we made this agreement with a lot of the Middle Eastern countries and Qatar, you know, including Russia, including China, including, you know, Saudi Arabia, the uae, that we would supply them and support their military. We would. And, you know, with our. With our intelligence and with our equipment, in exchange, they would take their oil and sell it to everybody, all these other countries, France, Germany, everybody in the dollar. So what this did is this helped everybody use the dollar as the reserve currency because everybody needed oil. And this is where the majority of the oil was coming from at the time. And so if they're selling the oil, if the. If the one store that has oil that the whole world needs, says, give us dollars, that helps us to the US because we can just print them, but it forces everyone else to save in our dollar, meaning they're buying our debt. So what we could do, as America is we could spend too much. We could be irresponsible, as politicians like to do. Spend, spend, spend. That's the number one. That's the very top of the funnel, spending too much. Because of that, we need you to buy our U.S. treasuries our dollar, U.S. treasury is just a dollar. A dollar is a treasury bond. It's just a one day coupon. It's like it pays zero interest, but it expires in one day. So they all buy that and they all buy our debt. And so that's the arrangement. And that was the petrodollar largely in 1972, 1973. And that started to crack during COVID when for the very first time ever, Russia, Iran, a few other places started to trade in other currencies or bitcoin, not the US Dollar. And so that's where we're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're not going to be buying our debt. What's going on?
- [75:54]
Jake Roquet
And we signaled to every we, the United States signaled to everybody, well, these are your dollars. If you do what we say. If you don't pass us off, if you don't like, this is your money and it's your money and no one's gonna mess with it as long as you do exactly what we tell you. And then people go, well, maybe this isn't as mine as I thought it was. People do that, nations do that. And yeah, that was the beginning of the cracks. I mean it's a problem that's been going for a long time. But when you signal to everybody like that. I think two of the key moments in that time were the signaling to the entire world via Russia that you do what we say or you don't get to keep your money. And in Canada, and in Canada the government, yes, saying, you do what we say or we got a little switch on your bank account, we're gonna turn it off and your money's frozen until we do what you say. Yeah, those are two key standouts for me from that time.
- [76:52]
Terrence Michael
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So where are people gonna turn? You're a sovereign nation and you're like, what do I wanna trade in with the rest of the world globally, where I can't get kicked off or they can't, you know, take my gold out of London or kick me off the SWIFT system or you know, Fed Wire, you know, what can I use? And guess what? The cyber nations are, you know, the meat space. Aren't the only people asking that question. AI is asking the same question. I want to agentically hire sub agents and I want to be able to do this and do these tasks and all this stuff.
- [77:26]
Narrator/Clip Speaker
Stuff.
- [77:26]
Terrence Michael
But wait a minute, someone can turn this off. Tether can, you know, censor me, you know, how do I, it's like, well, there's a certain money that is neutral and available to everyone. And by expending some energy, you can have some. And, you know, the. The. The long term global thesis for bitcoin is immense.
- [77:53]
Jake Roquet
And so that to continue on your. Keep going, actually, we'll come back to your book, but.
- [77:56]
Terrence Michael
Yeah, no, I think I was done there. Sorry. I was trying to get back to the petrodollar, but we pretty much fully explained that it gets into a little bit of Triffin's Dilemma. And, you know, now we're trying to bring manufacturing back to us because if we're exporting the dollar, we're saying, well, how do we get dollars to all these other countries? It's like, well, we're just gonna buy from you. So. But that's been a huge problem. We've hollowed out our middle class here in America. It's gone. So now we're trying to bring it back. So I think the petrodollar is going. Is going in a circle, but it's also gonna. It's also going away, you know, and we see what's recently happened with Iran and, you know, wanting bitcoin as insurance, you know. You know, hey, I'm not. You have a nice shop here. Sure would hate to have something bad happen to it. You know, you might want to buy some bitcoin insurance. I mean, just. It's just a payment, right? To get through the straight. They could choose anything they want. They're a sovereign nation. Why would they choose bitcoin? And also the transparency, it's like. It's kind of like a worldwide poker game of like, oh, well, I have this much gold. I have that much gold. China has the most gold. Russia has the most gold. We have the most gold. Who has the most gold? I don't. I can't check anywhere. There's no gold mempool. You know, I don't know. There's no block.
- [79:08]
Jake Roquet
Yeah, right, right, right, yeah. To have something that's open and transparent where you don't have to trust the trust.
- [79:15]
Terrence Michael
You want to throw your gold. Yeah, yeah. Become, you know, Saudi Arabia, convert a lot of your oil to bitcoin, and now flex, there it is. It's on. You know, we can do that with El Salvador. We see all of El Salvador's bitcoin.
- [79:26]
Jake Roquet
Last question for you. Looking forward in the next year, two, three years, what are you most excited about? What are you most looking forward to in the bitcoin space? Or even broader than that? Like, what's. What's exciting you? Looking forward right now?
- [79:42]
Terrence Michael
So what's exciting me is not popular with a lot of bitcoiners. And it's almost contradictory to me living a bitcoin standard. But I am most excited about bitcoin mortgages and that's because so many bitcoiners have come to bitcoiner and are saving in bitcoin because they finally want to own a house. And even though I think owning a house is. Is a terrible in. In a terrible monetary investment, it really is, especially next to bitcoin. I think it's a great lifestyle investment.
- [80:15]
Jake Roquet
A lot of people, yeah, it's nice
- [80:17]
Terrence Michael
being king of the castle. You can't get kicked out by a landlord. You know, you want to expand with your family and you want to, you know, change the countertops or do, you know, you want to just make it your place. There is some value in that. And even though financially you will not do as well as just saving in bitcoin, people want that, right? And you can look at, you know, very prominent bitcoiners, even like Natalie Brunel, like, that's all she talks about. Like, ever since she came into bitcoin and her parents got wiped out in the great financial crisis in 2000, 2009, and they lost their house, she, you know, she's determined to help them. She's trying to get her own, her own house, but I know she doesn't want to spend as much bitcoin as it's going to require because she may never get it back. And as an investment to continue saving, she's never going to do as well as bitcoin. So she's going to want a bitcoin mortgage. I want a bitcoin mortgage. I'm working with and talking to and associated with. With the few ones that are out there, there's just, there's like three or four little ones. None of them, I find, are absolutely perfect, but some are getting close,
- [81:23]
Narrator/Clip Speaker
you
- [81:24]
Terrence Michael
know, and we recently, recently had information about Fannie Mae doing the first bitcoin mortgage. It's not really a bitcoin mortgage. They're just saying that Fannie Mae is interacting only with Fiat. You're basically just getting a loan on Coinbase with your bitcoin and taking that Fiat, then, you know, use that as the collateral for Fannie Mae. But we're getting close and I think that's going to be huge, not only for bitcoiners, but for people who are like, oh, I can save in bitcoin, not have to take the, the, the risk and extra friction in real estate, but still potentially Get a house. So it's got to be done responsibly, you know, with a. With a low LTV loan to value. But I'm super excited about that and I'm. And I'm. And I'm super excited about countries, banks, institutions, pensions. I think everyone can benefit from bitcoin. It doesn't mean bitcoiners should invest in those things. Not at all. But I think it's good for them because doesn't everyone just want a better way to save? Whether you're a corporate. I mean, a corporation is just some people. An institution is just a group of people. It's like they should all have a better way to save. Universities, whatever, you know, fire stations. Like, everyone needs a better way to save.
- [82:36]
Jake Roquet
Yeah, yeah. The mortgage side of that is really important. I feel that as a, you know, a young person wanting to, like, build a foundation, to have a start, a family and those sorts of things. I think the house part of it is just. There's that. I have that instinct, I suppose that's like. It'd be nice to be somewhere you can really dig in. You can build a garden in the back. You can, you know, do those. Do it all over, remodel, whatever, have it exactly how you want it. And, you know, there's never a chance of somebody being like, hey, you got to get out of here. Hey, you know, those sorts of things. Which in California, it's unfortunate. It's unfortunate for the real estate owners, but there's, you know, pretty strong tenant rights and stuff like that. So, you know, you can get evicted, but, yeah, you maybe have more comfort here than you might expect in other places in that sense. But. But yeah, it's not the same as it being yours being king of the castle. That's something that I've thought a lot about in the past few years of wanting to get to that place. And I'm pretty sure I'll do the bitcoin mortgage route. I think that for me, where I'm at now, I lean towards keeping it simple. Just simple. Stay humble, stacks, that sort of things. But I think that is one of the key places where I think that bridge from the traditional finance world to the. The new system will be beneficial to a lot of people in the next decade or two decades without having to take out some of what you would have put in the new system to make that happen. I think that's good. I'll have to stay in touch with you on that if you have any great ideas about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'M curious about that as well. Well, thank you so much, Terrence. This was great. This was electric all the way through. I really enjoyed hearing what you had to say about things, and it's nice. I feel like, feel like it's easy to talk to someone who comes from the same sort of storytelling, creative background, moving into the bitcoin space. Yeah, it was a really easy conversation having with you today and I appreciate you taking the time.
- [84:33]
Terrence Michael
Yeah, awesome. Likewise. Thank you so much.
- [84:35]
Jake Roquet
Where can people find you?
- [84:38]
Terrence Michael
Just on X. Proof of money on X. I killed Facebook, I killed LinkedIn. I haven't killed Instagram yet, but I just, I'm trying to keep things simple.
- [84:49]
Jake Roquet
Yeah. Yeah, that's great. That's awesome. We'll link that down in the description as well. And thanks so much for coming. We'll talk again soon.
- [84:56]
Terrence Michael
Thank you. This July 4th come celebrate at America's Block Party Hosted by America 250, America's Block Party is a can't miss 4th of July concert happening at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum.
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Terrence Michael
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Terrence Michael
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Podcast Host
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Terrence Michael
But that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront
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Podcast Host
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Terrence Michael
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Jake Roquet
them talk to each other.
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Terrence Michael
That's where Odoo comes in. An all in one business management software that brings every part of your business
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Jake Roquet
together from sales and accounting to inventory
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Terrence Michael
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Jake Roquet
and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your
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Terrence Michael
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Jake Roquet
Try for free today at odoo.com iheartradio that's O-O-O-O.com iheartradio mom, are we there yet?
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Podcast Host
10 more minutes.
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Terrence Michael
Only 10 minutes. Can you drive slower?
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Jake Roquet
What's up with them today?
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Terrence Michael
Lingokids, that app we downloaded last week.
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Podcast Host
They love it. The games. This funny baby bot character. Kids, we're almost there. No.
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Terrence Michael
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Narrator/Clip Speaker
of, Lingokids is the number one entertainment
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Terrence Michael
platform for young kids.
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Jake Roquet
Why didn't we download this sooner?
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Terrence Michael
Lingokids.
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Podcast Host
Everything kids love.
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Terrence Michael
Download it for free.
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