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The Marketing Millennials
294 - Marketing for Good: Non-Profit Guide with Vivian Borja, CMO of Food For the Poor
00:42:32
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- [00:08]
Daniel Murray
Welcome to the Marketing Millennials, the no BS Marketing podcast. I'm Daniel Murray and join me for unfiltered conversations with the brains behind marketing's coolest companies. The one request I tell our guests stories or it didn't happen. Get ready to turn the up.
- [00:32]
Vivian Borja
One of the most important elements to connect with donors is the storytelling because you really need to create that deep emotional connection beyond the data, the numbers that are important, right? The rate of poverty, the rate of malnutrition. You need to talk about that because you need to educate and create the awareness. But you have to go from your head to your heart.
- [00:55]
Daniel Murray
Hey marketers, we know you love a tldr, so I'll get right to the point. You know wix, the website builder with professional templates? Well, meet wix to Studio. Made for freelancers and agencies with multiple clients, it has everything you need to efficiently build and operate campaigns across multiple channels. With WIX Studio, you can build websites that scale with dynamic pages and reusable assets. Fast track projects with integrations from Meta, Zapier, Google Ads and more. Finish a B testing in days, not weeks, publish social content, send emails, optimize SEO and so much more. Oh, and reporting is covered with integrations for tracking and analytics tools like GA4 and SEMrush. Basically, it's an all in one toolkit that scales with you drive real client growth. With WIX studio, go to wixtudio.com what's up, everybody?
- [01:53]
Unknown Host
Welcome back to another episode of the Marketing Millennials. Today is going to be a fun episode. We're talking nonprofit marketing. I have the chief Marketing officer from Food for the Poor, Vivian with me. It's going to be super excited to talk about this because I actually don't know much about nonprofit, but I get asked a lot and I think it's an underserved. There's not much education on what to do and how to do it. So I'm going to let Vivian give all the insights. But first I want to ask Vivian, how did you get into marketing? What's your background?
- [02:27]
Vivian Borja
Excellent. Thank you. Hi, Daniel. This is really. I get very passionate about it, so hopefully I don't overextend in the conversation and it's dangerous because I like to teach. I actually, I'm a professor in Miami Dade College in digital marketing, so I can stay for hours. So please let me know because I don't want to turn this into a lecture, but it's very important because marketing for good is something that we should all understand. Complicated. A lot of not complicated, complex, I would say. So how did I get into marketing? It is twists and turns in my career because I actually study international relations as me for my undergrad and I was born and raised in Ecuador, so I plan to be a diplomatic and that's where I started. And it's, I love how life throws you, you know, those incredible things out of the left field. I met a former president and he mentioned to me the word marketing. And I was like, okay. He had the largest law firm in Ecuador and his proposal was, you should do marketing for my law firm. And I was young and I was okay, let's do it. And that's how I started, but not with, I study international relations and as I said, I love academia. I'm a nerd at heart. So as soon as I started understanding that marketing is a discipline, many of us may have a wrong conception that it's beautifying things, but it's a data driven discipline that we really need to understand. Qualitative data like human behavior, what motivates people to quantitative data. You want to spend and you want to get a return, right? So there's all of that. And then from the principles that are still hold true, the pricing and promotion and distribution and your product, all of that comes into place. And it's a discipline that we need to study and take it seriously. It's beyond just having a catchy phrase or making something pretty. So that's when I decided to do come to the States and do an MBA and formalize my education in marketing. And after that I started actually in the corporate sector, pharmaceuticals. I even worked for Microsoft, Johnson and Johnson. All these big, big corporations were great. It was great. A lot of processes, a lot of knowledge there to be shared with peers. Big marketing driven organizations that really understand consumers and put out the best products and best practices. And I was fortunate enough that was, I won't disclose how long ago, but many, many years ago, especially knowing this is marketing for millennials. Many years ago. And finally it came to a point that during COVID a lot of self reflection, like many of us, right during those times, we were just in our homes doing a lot of thinking and I was already teaching and I loved, loved it. And I said, how about putting this but for a greater purpose, for impact. And I was lucky enough to make a move to the nonprofit sector. So Food for the Poor, it's an international and relief organization. We work in 15 countries in Latin America and the Caribbean and we really go to serve the most vulnerable communities and we have different Approaches but our approach is not handouts, it's hands up. We want really to create self sufficiency and that needs funding and that needs marketing. Create the funding. We need very good marketing strategies and it is going back to where we started. Very complex because we're not selling a tangible product. This is really touching people's hearts, right. And minds because donors are very smart. So their hearts and minds to like minded individuals that connect emotionally with this type of purpose and cost to help others and that it's purpose driven. Right. That we believe in human dignity. So applying the marketing knowledge, the marketing principles to that is very fulfilling and yes, it should be talked about. So thank you for inviting me today.
- [07:45]
Unknown Host
Yeah, I want to go into this because obviously there's probably in Miami alone thousands of non profits that people can give money.
- [07:56]
Vivian Borja
There's millions in the US I think I heard a number like 10 million non profits. Of course, every size and cause and you name it. But true, it's an overcrowded place.
- [08:10]
Unknown Host
Let's start off first, like how do you start getting your name out there? How do you start marketing? Where do, where do you even start with a non profit?
- [08:20]
Vivian Borja
That is a great question. So first thing is really creating your theory of change. So what is a theory of change? What is the broad social impact once you discover a need, having a theory of change and having your plan is your foundation and then you reach out different ways. I'm sure we'll, as we go along we'll chat because it has to be a multi channel approach to connect like minded individuals to that theory of change, to that plan, to really create that impact. And it's this constant feedback loop because donors, you're not selling anything, they're giving you the money and they want to see that there is action and that it's really being used to what you're saying it's going to be used. So it is this constant feedback look that you have to also educate donors. Often time donors don't understand how poverty affects the human being in all levels. Even in self worth, poverty really affects your self esteem. So from tangibles that you don't have house, you don't have food, to intangibles that there's even sometimes a sense of worthlessness. So educating donors on all the complexities, it's called multidimensional poverty. And what really as a development focus, what really helps you serve these communities where you create a sense of self sufficiency always with an exit strategy and that those donors understand the cost and then you have to ask, right. They understand the cause. And now you have to ask, you have to solicit for the money and then you have to communicate back to them. Okay, this is what happened with your money and this is the progress, the success, and hopefully even the failures. Because it is a complex problem.
- [10:20]
Unknown Host
Yeah, the, the number one thing which I think I'm hearing is you really have to nail down storytelling. Like coming up with the true story.
- [10:30]
Vivian Borja
Ooh, you hit the nail in the head. I would say one of the most important elements, I'm speaking again marketing wise to connect with donors is the storytelling part. Because you really need to create that deep emotional connection beyond the data and the numbers that are important, right. The rate of poverty, the rate of malnutrition, you need to talk about that because you need to educate and create the awareness. But you have to go from here, so from your head to your heart. So how, how do you go from there that you provide education, but then also you create the emotional connection and. Absolutely, storytelling is crucial.
- [11:11]
Unknown Host
I want to, I want to dive into that a little bit. And then I want to ask, obviously, because the budget is the hardest thing in non profit because you're using, you have to, you're using money that is intended for programs. So you have to be very conscious of how much you're spending more than any other corporation out there. Because. But I want to ask, what is, what are those elements of storytelling? Like what. What makes a good. A good story?
- [11:43]
Vivian Borja
So that is a very good question because you do start from almost like setting the stage, right? So what is the. Your WH questions? It really works when you make it very personal. What is happening to Vivian when you really create that one to one connection, right? So donor Daniel is going to understand really what happens to Vivian and in Vivian's community. So you do set the stage. Where is this country? All your WH questions, right? What is happening? How is happening? Because normally, what you want to do also with storytelling, give a voice to Vivian, right? Who normally is in a marginalized community. She has no voice who can hear her. So understanding that, that you're really giving a voice to that community, to Vivian, and making justice to that and creating the emotional connections with your very simple WH questions to then even. And why? Why are we doing this? Why should we even care? And then it goes to the organization, the how. You have also in the storytelling to bring the how. Okay, you told all the story, you set the stage, right. The entire plot, this is happening to Vivian. These are the reasons why it's Happening and then it comes almost like the protagonist, the ngo, right to the story and how the NGO is going to do it efficiently, how the NGO is really going to solve the problem for Vivian, not for the short term, but for the long term. Because we don't want to perpetuate these cycles of poverty. Right. One, one of the goals is actually breaking the cycle of poverty and breaking those multigenerational poverty problems. Right? So how creating the trust with the donor that yes, this organization has the know how has the expertise and efficiency to solve long term for this problem. And then you need your happy ending, right? So you told the story, the problems, they're normally deeply emotional because these circumstances, they're not fun, right? It's heavy. So you tell the story, you tell all your w questions comes the ngo how you cannot solve. And then you need your happy ending on how Vivian was successful in this through the training, through the work that NGO did. But what becomes interesting in especially here when you're talking to a donor, NGO should not be the hero. The donor becomes the hero because thanks to the donor, we got this successful result.
- [14:47]
Unknown Host
Yeah, it's super. It's super interesting because you have to first connect to like the person's problem, then you have to say, how I'm going to solve it. Then you actually have to show that you did solve it. Because I used to, I remember back in the day, my mom, St. Jude used to send out all those things. And what they did really well is like they would say, hey, this person has a problem. And then after you gave money, they would like send like a note back from that person you helped and with a picture and say you helped this.
- [15:20]
Vivian Borja
Person what you did. So it feel good, right? Which by the way, not to get too nerdy on this, but there's a lot of studies. There's even a documentary that I love. It's very simple. It's called Happy. It's interesting because at the whole premise of this documentary is that there's a lot of neurologists and psychologists and neuroscientists that have studied depression with MRIs, what happens to the brain, how that chemical imbalance between the serotonin and the dopamine and all of that. So this document, where it goes is that why don't we study what happens to the brain when people are happy? The other side of the coin, how the dopamine and the serotonin and all of that gets, you know, flowing nicely in your brain. And up to now, that's why I love what I do I'm going to ruin if you haven't seen it because well, the conclusion of this documentary and what they found and they did this research really doing scans of the brain and it was in different countries, in different social status. So the richest person in Beverly Hills to the slums in India, to you know, different religions, Mother Teresa, there's all of this. And they were able to find one common threat. And what it makes human beings happy is helping other human beings. Isn't that beautiful? And that it's scientifically proven. Isn't that amazing? Isn't that hopeful? Isn't that like that's the world I want to live where we care. And that happens to your brain. So getting to that part of the donor through storytelling with the result that you can help a community need. That's where the NGO and the marketeers on NGO should aspire and work hard for. And it's super fulfilling.
- [17:25]
Unknown Host
It's actually that's super cool to know that that's where happiness comes from. And I think it also it's good to know that. I mean you said at the beginning this is marketing for good. It's. It's helping other people, but it's also helping other like donors. It's helping everybody. It's a full circle effect. But one of the hardest problems I hear from a lot of people with nonprofits is I don't have budget, I don't know what to do with my marketing. So where do I start? If you have a low budget, how do you start getting the word out there efficiently?
- [18:01]
Vivian Borja
So it's a always grassroots approach. So start slow. It's like eating the elephant, the one bite at a time. So how do you connect with like minded individuals? How do you create your community and your tribe? So you start locally. Grassroots is end storytelling, right? Like join one of the largest. Even for us, we're a very large organization. There's billions of dollars rates. That's why GoFundMe and Facebook fundraisers and all of that are so powerful and can raise millions of dollars is because there's nothing more powerful than your network that you connect with your tribe to join me in this amazing purpose. So it applies when you're starting in marketing is you start like that, you start with your network, you start reaching out grassroots, word of mouth, all those little it to go back to very marketing terms that below the line, once you have budget then you go to the above the line activities and your media and all of that. But that's when you grow to have sufficient budget to go There but you start like that, you start with your flight, you start with all your below the line activities and with your storytelling and really having. I do want to insist that this is the foundation you need to have this purpose. If you want people to fund you. You need to have a very clear theory of change. What is it that you're gonna, what is the impact that you want people really to join you? And it has to be inspiring, it has to be ethical, it has to be dignifying. Because in our case when we talk about poverty, we said that right that poverty also affects, affects self worth. You don't want to exploit stories. So you have to have all these things clear so you really attract first grassroots below the line until you grow, grow, grow, grow your tribe so you can make other types of investments where now I can share with you and the audience obviously that us being a large organization, we have the ability now to do it multi channel. Yet the most efficient way and I'm sure in having a website is not nowadays something super expensive. Digital fundraising, super effective, super cost efficient way to reach out to like minded individuals. And digital marketing allows us to do geo targeting, geofencing to cap your budget to specific geography lookalike models. You have all these amazing tools that you don't need this humongous budgets but you need to start first on having the clarity on what's your theory of change, what is it really and how you're going to connect with people. Again because this is deeply emotional, this is not an impulsive buy. This is, this is something that you really have to connect so deeply to this greater purpose. So it's almost like it is very difficult way to do marketing because it's something, it's not tangible, it's not something that oh, in two days I'm going to receive my shipment. So that's why you have to be very, very clear on those foundations.
- [21:35]
Unknown Host
And one thing I'm also hearing is you really have to nail well luckily in this age we have such good targeting because I mean obviously there's two sides of the coin. You have to first educate people who don't know this is a problem. But there are already people out there that actually do care about like helping the poor. So like this, you're the capturing the existing market who actually are going to and that's probably your, your tribe. You need to start rallying first and then figure the other side of the coin is now you've got your tribe, you have to educate. But one thing you said is data. So how does Data play a big role in the nonprofit space, so.
- [22:21]
Vivian Borja
Exactly. Because budget is. Budgets are so limited. You really need to understand data first. Just to even who am I? Who are those like minded individuals that are going to connect with me and understand their behavior? Because once you do your storytelling, it has to be cater to their heart, how you touch their heart, right? So you need data there to understand your target. So that's the first piece. Then the second piece of data is how you move them through the funnel. Nowadays, even to book a room in a hotel, you're reading testimonials, you're doing a lot of research. Imagine where you're going to give money for a cost. You really want to know, is this charity legit? That would be my first question. Is this charity efficient? Is this charity been around? Really? What do they do? So donors also are smart and do their research. So you have to move them through the channel. And for those each stages of the channels where you start, top level, top of the funnel, right? Which is creating that awareness I exist and food for the poor. This is what we do. Then you have to pick their interest. This is how we do it. Do you want to join us? Then there are considerations. You have to prove your work. And finally only then studying each stage of the data, then you can aspire to a donation. And I think we need to respect and give the time to the donors to walk through, go through all the stages of the funnel and that we're understanding and reading the data to achieve those conversions. Why? Same thing, limited budget. You need to understand most efficient in really understand campaign performance to allocate your very limited dollars. So data, even in the storytelling, right when you're telling about the needs of the community, you want to have benchmark data. The malnutrition rate is XYZ after the intervention, you want to see the progress. If there were 60,000 children that were not going to school because they have to go to work. If we build the school here, okay, did we solve somehow the problem from 60,000, did we go to 40? So data, it's everywhere.
- [24:50]
Unknown Host
I do love that because I think the number one thing in marketing is people buy with emotion and justify with logic. And yeah, the emotion is connecting you with that person, their struggle, the person you're trying to help. The logic is, hey, this is actually a huge problem. And you have to give people. People need specifics to justify their emotional giving something or giving them money. Especially when donating usually is a. A larger sum of money. So you have to. They want to know that, hey, the specific data like that malnutrition number, how many people, what's actually happening, they need to know that it's actually a true. And I like what you said before because it is actually true. A lot of people do look at how efficient is that, that nonprofit, how credible is a nonprofit? Because there are, it's crazy to see some non profits out there like only give like 40% of their money that they, and they spend 60 on people or whatever they're spending that money on. But, and then, but some people are like 70 efficient, 80 efficient. And that's something you want to know that when I'm done, you want to know that your money's going somewhere and doing good.
- [26:07]
Vivian Borja
Exactly. If you're, you're. Which is the beautiful thing when we were talking about the documentary and all of that, right. When you really have that motivation and you believe that, you know, doing good for others is the right thing to do, that you want to. Not to sound too cheesy, but you want to somehow make the world a better place, right Amongst all the crazy things that you want to live a life of purpose and some sort of fulfillment. So okay, you donate to this cause and then how, how frustrating or how devastating that then nothing gets done. So I think the same, right. The donors will do and they do their, their due diligence because when they have the heart in the right place, they, they want to see these communities thrive. These communities that are going to, they're, you know, left without a voice. Actually it's even worse because oftentimes when we visit some of the communities, there's, you know, politicians that go and there's this history of broken promises and it's, it's, it's, it's, it's understanding also the psychological effects in these communities of feeling left out.
- [27:25]
Unknown Host
Yeah, one thing I also, I was talking to this nonprofit marketer probably like a month ago and one, like a lot of people need to give credit to the actual person who's vulnerable enough to tell their story front facing that person who is, is, was poor or is poor and is vulnerable enough to like outwardly tell their story to millions of people or thousands of people that are going to, which is a hard thing to do is to get as a marketer too is like trying to tell that story in a correct way with dignity. With dignity.
- [28:04]
Vivian Borja
You have to give that respect, right. That there is the human dignity that you're not exploiting the story or just. So that's the whole ethical part of it that comes as marketeers Right. To understand that okay, there's things that must be protected when it comes to minors, for example, that are in a vulnerable position or when you're telling the story, how do you do it in a dignified way? Yes, this person needs help, but this person is a person who can thrive given the right opportunities. How we can give create space so that person achieves those great opportunities and then become self sufficient and empowered and their hope is restored. Because especially in deep levels of poverty, it goes beyond the material, the obvious material needs. Right. The house is a shack or you know, there's no running water but it's intangible to see almost in their eyes that sense of hopelessness that's. That breaks your heart.
- [29:12]
Unknown Host
Yeah. It's also, I mean it goes into like which people you don't think about if you have privilege or have. It's like that basic maslow hierarchy of needs. Like some of these people are fighting for not only housing but like food on their plate every single day. Like a one meal a day even that so thinking and that's like they're. If they're not even getting that like you like there's so many levels of needs and their basic need isn't being met which is so hard on a human being if your basic need is not even being met.
- [29:49]
Vivian Borja
If you have to worry so much like am I gonna eat tomorrow? I'm gonna eat not even tomorrow, I'm gonna eat tonight. And you have children in moms and dads sacrifice for their children. They're not even thinking am I gonna my kids gonna eat. So we're gonna fundraise to help that family. You gotta make sure that you do it in a dignified way because you want to restore not only their food and their plates, but their dignity.
- [30:17]
Daniel Murray
What's up marketers? Time for a WIX Studio recap. Here are five things you can get done faster using Wix Studio. One, scale content with dynamic pages and reusable assets. Two, integrate with Meta, Zapier, Google Ads and more. Three, launch and measure a B test with intuitive design tools. Four, connect to analytics tools like GA4 and SEMrush. And five, manage your client's social media all from one dashboard ready. For more go to wix studio.com that's wix studio.com.
- [30:56]
Unknown Host
What are some trends that are happening in the nonprofit space? What are some things like where is the space moving to? What is like new that people should know about?
- [31:06]
Vivian Borja
So for me was interesting when I made the move from the corporate sector to nonprofit, the Vertical has been a being a little bit slower. And I don't know if the word is traditional. I'm not finding maybe the right word. But it in innovation, I think it's something that was a missing element. So I am seeing it now and I'm excited to see that digital transformation is a thing that it's talked a lot in the nonprofit sector. It is very efficient. There is a very important metric that it's cost per dollar raise, right. How much it cost you to get one dollar of fundraising. No doubt that in the digital space you not only do it the cheapest way, but the fastest is so having this seeing the trends of really embracing everything digital, including AI used again with ethical standards for, you know, things that, that matter to really multiply the effect. At the end of the day, I think us marketeers in the nonprofit sector, what we're looking for is not only helping one person or one family or one community, right. It's this multiplying effect. How can I serve and help millions of people? So the adoption of technologies is helping nonprofits with the multiplier effect. You can do, you can ask one donor to do fundraisers for you with peer to peer fundraising. You can quickly there's a emergency, an earthquake somewhere and that you quickly can put out digital assets in social media in your website and start collecting funds quickly to the point now that we're able to pre position if we know there's going to be a hurricane affecting the Caribbean before roads are closed and you cannot go there with food and with kids and we start pre position so pre positioning these kids so people before it the roads are closed, you make sure that they, they will be helped. So I would say the biggest, biggest thing is in the digital space and really adopting the new technologies, adopting also the use of social media and influencers and all these things that traditionally the nonprofit sector was a little bit slower to adapt and you know the commercial enterprises. So there is a lot around that. And I would say also in terms of educating, I think at some point you lose sight because you really want to help people that you only solicit money. But donors don't want to be treated as wallets. Donors actually appreciate when you educate them in what is happening. What are the realities, what we failed, what okay, we did this intervention and probably wasn't the best approach. What is the intervention that works best? So another trend I think is the transparency. Having those and donors actually appreciate it. Having those transparent real conversations on. Sometimes donors would say oh let's build a house Here. Well, there's no. It's impossible to get the raw material right, but it's better if we just do xyz. So having those transparent conversations that before we go with the savior complex and say okay, intervention X, Y and Z in a community, I think in nonprofit you're seeing also more this asset based approach that you really go into the community and understand the community and understand the community what their strengths don't go. We're here to save you because we don't know really listening to the community and understanding what their strengths and then pulling efficiencies out of the strengths, talking to the donors, going through digital channels using AI. I think that finally nonprofits started to, to to work on. And that's where I think it's the biggest trends that you're seeing.
- [35:34]
Unknown Host
And last question for you is what is a marketing hill you would die on?
- [35:39]
Vivian Borja
I would say for me and I normally always start all conversations with this. How I started with you, that is marketing is a data driven discipline. That is for me the biggest thing. Yes, your messaging, yes, you're very impactful visuals, especially nonprofit. That is super important. Yes, your storytelling, but your data, your data weaving through everything you do and that it's a discipline and that you have the responsibility to understand the data, apply the data, look for the data, crunch the data. And at the end of the day that's for me like before anything else is really coming to the realization that marketing is a data driven discipline.
- [36:27]
Unknown Host
Amazing. I mean I, I mean I totally agree and I think it's, I think it's just there's so many ways we can improve that part of it is one is like how we collect data, how we store data and then how we efficiently use data. I think there's so many ways that we marketers and now that even though data is harder to come by, it's like how are we collecting that, that first party data? That data that you are going in the communities and getting all that you're having all these interesting conversation. Are those interesting conversations being captured and stored and people are using that data or is it just going in one ear and going out the other? And that's where we got like marketers. That's like the gold data. These is like that data that actual people are saying to you rather than you trying to find it online and or make guesses.
- [37:21]
Vivian Borja
That's why I love now that we use specifically the term martech, right. That we're talking specifically about marketing technology. So all this data is not only centralized and Stored but it's purge and has workflows and navigates through all the from a pre planning campaign, understanding a community to ending a campaign and saying okay, this is the roi. But not only only that, how do we report back to the donor and tell them the store not only the story of the need but now the story of what happened. Like you were saying, right, that you were sharing with me about St. Jude that then you will get this little picture with what happened right with your donation. So and all of that has to reside in a centralized system in your mark tech, where all these different technology that you're using for email marketing, for social media campaigns, for landing pages, for display, for all of that, all your analytics be centralized in a place where you make sense of it all. So mark tech is also one of my favorite words.
- [38:38]
Unknown Host
I was, I used to be in marketing operations. I love that. Lastly, where can people find you and what you're doing? And food for the poor. Where could people find all this stuff.
- [38:50]
Vivian Borja
For the poor.org and then my LinkedIn is Vivian Borja, you can find me there. And I actually teach so I love to have conversations. Anything related to marketing and trends and what is happening. Not only nonprofit in general. It's really something that I am super passionate about and I love not only teaching but also educating myself. So second word continuous learning continue like it never ends. Because marketing is ever changing. That's the only constant that it's changing, changing, changing. And there's the new Google algorithm or the whatever it is, right? Or the new best practices or all these things that you have to keep learning.
- [39:39]
Unknown Host
I love that. And also I think what people forget too is like you need to keep refining the fundamentals too. Like what you just said is like storytelling. I mean that's never going to change, but you always have to keep refining that craft. You can't just like not do it for two years or learn the newest techniques or keep testing new things. It's just like refine the fundamentals as well. A lot of people focus too much on hey AI's here. But they don't even know how to like tell a good story or like write or understand how to like get data from qualitative data from their audience to use it for their marketing. There's so many things that fundamentalize that people need to use. But thank you so much for joining. It's been a great conversation and I really appreciate it.
- [40:28]
Vivian Borja
Likewise, thank you so much for inviting me and have a great day.
- [40:34]
Daniel Murray
Thanks so much for listening. Keep tuning in to hear more great insights from the coolest marketers from around the world. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe and follow the Marketing Millennials podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. And if you like what you hear, I would greatly appreciate you giving us a five star rating. It helps bring more marketers into our community.