4 Myths That Sabotage Your Career Growth with Maya Grossman, CEO and Executive Coach | Ep. 347

Summary

The Marketing Millennials – Ep. 347

"4 Myths That Sabotage Your Career Growth with Maya Grossman"

Host: Tamara Gominski (Guest Hosting for Daniel Murray)
Guest: Maya Grossman, CEO, Executive Coach & Author of Invaluable
Date: September 10, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this actionable and myth-busting episode, guest host Tamara Gominski (founder of PMM Camp) sits down with Maya Grossman—renowned executive coach, two-time VP of Marketing, and best-selling author—to unpack the real reasons marketers plateau in their careers and how to break through to senior leadership roles. Drawing on Maya’s experience at Microsoft, Google, and coaching hundreds of marketers, the conversation breaks down four pervasive career myths, skill shifts necessary for advancement, and practical strategies for increasing your influence and visibility. Listeners leave with concrete next steps for achieving promotions within 12–18 months—minus the fluff.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Marketers Hit Career Ceilings

• Common Stagnation Point: Most marketers get stuck at Senior Manager or Director level—despite delivering results and receiving praise.
  • Maya's "Mid-Management Hell Loop": “The more work you do, the more work you get, but not the strategic kind.” (02:40 – Maya)
• Root Cause: Marketers are rewarded for execution and become boxed in as "doers," failing to demonstrate leadership or strategic skills.

2. The "Skill Shift": From Doer to Leader

• Metaphor:
  • “Getting yourself all the way to Senior Manager is like driving a car… getting to VP is like flying a plane.” (04:42 – Maya)
• Skill Split by Level:
  • Early Career: ~100% execution
  • Senior Manager/Director: 50% execution, 50% executive skills
  • VP: 20% execution, 80% leadership/strategy (05:42 – Maya)
• Transitioning Tactics:
  • Learn to delegate
  • Ruthless prioritization and eliminating non-essential work
  • Protect time for strategic thinking and stakeholder meetings

3. The Power of Saying “No”

• Value Signal:
  • “Learning how to say no the right way makes a huge difference… it sets boundaries and lets everyone know, hey, my time is valuable.” (07:32 – Maya)
• Consequences of Always Saying Yes: Signals underutilization and leads to burnout.
• How-To:
  • “Thank you for sharing that. Here’s what I’m currently working on… is this more important than what we’ve already prioritized?” (09:41 – Tamara)
• Key Takeaway: It’s not about quantity of work, but the impact of what you deliver.

4. 4 Myths That Sabotage Career Growth

Maya identifies and unpacks four career-killing myths:

a) Myth 1: Hard Work Alone Gets You Promoted (Promotion as Reward)

• Reality Check:
  • “A promotion is not a reward for doing your job well… it’s a vote of confidence that you can do work at the next level.” (11:33 – Maya)

b) Myth 2: You Need More Credentials

• Insight:
  • “Not to mention, I have seen people with MBAs from Ivy League schools who can’t get promoted because they don’t have the executive presence.” (13:02 – Maya)
• Personal Story: Tamara (14:14) and Maya’s client (15:01) share that lack of MBA or even a college degree does not preclude executive roles.

c) Myth 3: Hard Work Speaks For Itself

• Correction:
  • “Our work doesn’t have a voice unless we actually put a voice behind it… in the corporate world, it just makes you invisible.” (13:19 – Maya)

d) Myth 4: [Implied] “More of the Same Will Get Me Noticed”

• Repeating what works in your current role won’t break the cycle.

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5. Three Key Traps That Keep Marketers Stuck

a) Mindset Trap

• Self-Limiting Beliefs:
  • “The invisible career killer… if you believe you’re not ready, you don’t show up and don’t put yourself in situations to be successful.” (16:38 – Maya)
• 80% of Success is Mindset; 20% is Execution

b) Perception Problem

• Boxed-In as a Doer:
  • “They can only see you as someone who executes… so perception is reality.” (18:19 – Maya)

c) Visibility Gap

• Self-Promotion:
  • “People don’t read minds… we have to make sure the right people not only know your name, but associate it with executive potential.” (19:12 – Maya)
• Strategic Visibility: Not just self-promotion, but also building authentic relationships with potential promoters/champions across the org (30:14, 31:40)

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6. Executive Presence: What It Really Means

• Definition: “Executive presence is like gravity. You can’t see it, but you can feel its pull.” (24:50 – Maya)
• Core Components (as per Center for Talent Innovation):
  • Gravitas (how you act)
  • Communication (what/how you convey information)
  • Appearance (how you show up)
• Critical Executive Behaviors:
  • Strategic thinking
  • Decisiveness
  • Influencing (across and above)
  • Executive-level communication and storytelling (25:07)
• Self-Assessment: The VP Marshmallow Test (27:53):
  1. Do you hold back ideas with execs? (Confidence issue)
  2. Are you brought into strategic decisions, or just informed later? (Perception issue)
  3. Could a senior leader immediately vouch for your promotion? (Visibility gap)

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7. Redefining Achievement and Authentic Leadership

• High-achievers often tie self-worth to sheer output; true advancement comes from impact, influence, and solving bigger problems (19:39, 20:41).
• Leadership Diversity:
  • “Executive presence… is not one size fits all… Think about Michelle Obama and Steve Jobs—both have executive presence, but do it very differently.” (22:09 – Maya)
• Find both your leadership model and "anti-model" to guide growth authentically (23:31).

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8. Building Strategic Relationships for Growth

• Promotions, especially at the executive level, are a team sport—multiple champions must vouch for you.
  • “Think of it like getting five star reviews, but in real life… you have to build those relationships in advance.” (30:14, 31:40 – Maya)
• Most fail by neglecting networking/relationship building until the last minute.

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9. Memorable Quotes & Anecdotes

• On Invisible Work: “In the corporate world, [staying quiet] just makes you invisible. And invisible people don’t get promoted.” (13:19 – Maya)
• On Mindset: “80% of success is mindset. Only 20% is execution.” (16:38 – Maya)
• On Presence: “Executive presence is like gravity. You can’t see it, but you can feel its pull.” (24:50 – Maya)
• Networking Truth: “Relationships are probably one of the most important things in corporate because people move companies and… everything becomes easier.” (32:48 – Maya)
• Career Marketing Wisdom: “When you market to everyone, you market to no one… have your own story.” (35:16 – Maya)

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Notable Timestamps

• 02:40: Why marketers get stuck at mid-management – Maya's "hell loop" metaphor
• 04:42: The career skill shift: car driver vs. airplane pilot
• 07:32–11:14: Importance and method of saying no
• 11:33–15:01: Four biggest myths about promotion and credentials
• 16:38–19:39: Three traps: mindset, perception, and visibility (plus actionable stories)
• 24:50–26:50: What is "executive presence" really?
• 27:53–29:17: The VP Marshmallow Test (self-assessment)
• 30:14–33:59: Strategic visibility, advocacy, and building champions
• 35:16: Maya’s “marketing hill” to die on—niching in both career and marketing

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Practical Action Steps from the Episode

1. Stop relying on hard work alone: Impact and visibility matter more than volume of tasks
2. Shift skill focus: Build executive and soft skills early; delegate and prioritize ruthlessly
3. **Start saying no—to free up bandwidth for strategic work and influence
4. Build strategic visibility: Self-promote and cultivate authentic work relationships across the org
5. Assess your barriers: Use Maya’s three-question VP marshmallow test
6. Model authentic leadership: Choose who you emulate (and who you don’t)
7. Niche your personal brand: You don’t have to (and shouldn’t) be right for every role—know your story

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Further Resources

• Find Maya Grossman: LinkedIn
  • Check for her free masterclass on career advancement via LinkedIn
• Learn more about PMM Camp: PMM Camp Website/Newsletter
• Connect with The Marketing Millennials:
  • Podcast: Apple, Spotify, YouTube
  • Host Daniel Murray: Twitter | LinkedIn

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This episode is a treasure trove for mid-level marketers ready to break free of the “hell loop” and step confidently onto the promotion path.

Transcript

[Maya Grossman]

Hey, besties.

[Tamara Gominski]

Welcome back to another episode of the Marketing Millennials. I'm Tamara Gominski and I'm stepping in as your guest host while Daniel's out on paternity leave. I'm a career product marketing leader and the former VP of PMM at high growth startups like Kajabi and Unbounce. Now I'm the founder of PMM Camp, a community and newsletter for product marketing leaders. And while Daniel is off doing dad things, I'll be here bringing you fun conversations with some of the smartest marketers I know. Today I'm joined by my friend, Maya Grossman, an executive career coach, two time VP of marketing, and the author of the bestselling book Invaluable. Maya built her career at global companies like Microsoft and Google, but it wasn't a straight climb. After 17 rejections in a row, she figured out what it really takes to break through to senior leadership, eventually landing two VP roles in her 30s. And she's helped countless marketers do the same. Getting unstuck, earning bigger roles, and building the kind of influence that gets you noticed and promoted. In this episode, we dig into why so many great marketers hit a ceiling in their careers and what it actually takes to break through. Maya shares the skill shifts you need to make to go from manager to leader and the biggest traps that keep marketers stuck. We'll also get into practical steps you can take to position yourself for promotion in the next 12 to 18 months, starting tomorrow.

[Daniel Murray]

Welcome to the Marketing Millennials, the no BS Marketing podcast. I'm Daniel Murray, and join me for unfiltered conversations with the brains behind marketing's coolest companies. The one request I tell our guests stories or it didn't happen. Get ready to turn the button.

[Tamara Gominski]

Maya, welcome to the show.

[Maya Grossman]

Thank you so much for having me. We were just chatting and we said, this is going to be such an incredible conversation because what we're talking about today, there's no playbook. When you join corporate, no one tells you, hey, this is how you get promoted. It happens in, you know, back channels, conversations. And today we're going to spill all the tea.

[Tamara Gominski]

I love it. And I feel like it is going to be such a good conversation because not only have we done this ourselves, but we've also coached a lot of other marketers through this. So I feel like we're going to have multiple perspectives to share today, which is great. So, I mean, on that point, I think we know a lot of marketers, they could be like the best marketer in the world. But they often hit a ceiling in their career, even when they are delivering amazing results. From your perspective, why do you think so many people get stuck at a certain level?

[Maya Grossman]

Yeah. So from what I've seen, this usually happens around the senior manager director level. And the reason I know is because I actually lived through that. When I was trying to become a director, I was rejected 17 times. I counted. I put it on a spreadsheet and I couldn't figure out why, because I was getting good reviews, I was hitting my goals. But every time I went for that promotion or even try to get a job at the next level, I kept hearing, you're not ready. And it created this weird situation which I like to call the mid management hell loop, where the more work you do, the more work you get, but not a strategic kind. And I think a lot of the time it happens because we put ourselves in this box of the doer. Right. We're so busy with the execution that we're not showing some of those executive skills. And the reality is, what made you a great marketing manager is very different than what will make you a really great marketing executive. But it's almost like the rules have changed, but no one tells you, so what do we do? We keep doing more of the same and expect different results and it just doesn't work.

[Tamara Gominski]

Yeah, it's like that saying, it's like, what got you here won't get you there. Right. And one of the things I've seen, even in my own career, or just observing from me, around me, is like, not every manager even knows how to describe back to their team how they got to where they are. So to your point, it's like there's not a playback. But also when you ask people who have done it, they can't clearly articulate what they've done to get there.

[Maya Grossman]

Yeah, you always get, I'm going to know when you get there. But what does that leave us with? Right. How do we actually do that? And I think that's part of what we're going to break down today so that people start understanding what it really takes and what they can start doing today.

[Tamara Gominski]

Yeah. I definitely want to make today's conversation as actionable as possible. And you mentioned that, like, the skills that kind of got you to this part of your career are not the same skills that are going to take you to the next one. Can you break that down a little bit for us? Help us understand?

[Maya Grossman]

Yeah. So I like to share this metaphor that basically says that getting yourself all the way to senior Manager is kind of like driving a car and you've been doing it for a few years, you get really good. But getting to that VP level, it's more like flying a plane, which means it's just not the same thing. Just because you're a good driver, it's not gonna make you a really great pilot. So we need to make a shift. We need to move from how can I run the campaigns to how can I influence the direction that marketing is going with? So it's kind of making this shift from more the doing to the leading. And we can break that down, what that actually means. But I think that is the biggest shift. Yeah.

[Tamara Gominski]

I also think it is a bit tricky too though, because it's not like you can just not do anymore either, right?

[Maya Grossman]

Yes.

[Tamara Gominski]

Especially it depends on the size of company you're at. But you can't leave everything behind you. It's not like you're burning the bridge behind you, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

[Maya Grossman]

Oh, no, not at all. It's a process, and this is how I like to break it. So early in your career, it's almost 100% the execution. Right. This is you, the technical skills, getting the job done, learning the ropes. And that's incredible. I think around the senior manager director level, that's when it's going to be split 50, 50. About 50% of your time is still the doing that's important. But you're going to start learning some of those executive skills. And when you get to VP, it's more 80, 20. And I think it's not either or. It's shifting the balance. And I think that's the part that people struggle with, because you can't just show up one day and say, I'm done. I don't want to do anything anymore, so now I just want to lead. It doesn't work this way. But we also don't want you to try and do the work of two people and burn out. Right. Doesn't make sense. What you need to think about is it's a process. How do I get there? You do that by learning how to delegate. So you're not the only person doing the work. You do that by getting ruthless with prioritization because not everything on your to do list is going to be as important and actually eliminating some work that is just not relevant. And if you do that over and over again over time, you'll make a little bit more time for yourself to think strategically, to meet with more stakeholders, to start thinking about the next Quarter, not just what you're doing right now. And that's how you make the shift. I love that.

[Tamara Gominski]

And I think we talk about skills, and a lot of time we think technical skills, but I think soft skills are also important. And from my experience, actually one of the most important skills to learn to get, you know, even to the director level is the ability to say no. How often does that come up in your work? Do you see a difference in people who are actually able to say no and say a Respectful no?

[Maya Grossman]

Oh, 100%. We need to understand that it sends a message. So how we show up every single day, how we have a conversation, what we choose to do, what we don't choose to do, it basically trains people how to treat us. And if we are not respectful of our own time, then other people are not going to respect it either. So I think learning how to say no the right way makes a huge difference, not only for you, that you're not going to drown in work and do things that you don't like, but also to set boundaries and basically let everyone know, hey, my time is valuable because that actually means I'm more strategic when I actually spend my time. It makes a difference. And that way you're not going to get dumped on with tons of work that is not relevant. I just think people are scared that if they say no, it's going to diminish their value if I'm not doing everything and anything, that I'm not going to be delivering the right results. But here's the part that we need to understand. If we are shifting into senior leadership, our value is not tied to what we can do, how much work we can get done. The value comes from solving bigger problems, from moving the needle, from having more influence. When we say no, we make time for these things. And I've seen people that I work with, that I coach, that were so afraid of saying no that they were answering emails and texts throughout the weekend, getting anxiety, really stressing out, and what we started doing, and this is a tip for everyone, if you have a micromanager, is instead of immediately answering, she started waiting two, three hours, and then she answered the week after that. She waited half a day before she answered, then the next day, then she started saying, I'll get back to you on Monday. And guess what? Nothing happened. The text just stopped appearing over the weekend because how we act tells people how to treat us. And it also created more of that executive presence because now she wasn't someone that her manager, you know, can reach out to. Randomly, he had to respect her time too.

[Tamara Gominski]

I think that's such a powerful thing. Like how we act tells people how to treat us. It's actually super relevant for most things in life. But another thing that I have done to help people and even myself say no is to help them understand. Like, what am I saying no to if I say yes to your thing? Because I think a lot of people don't realize that if you're just constantly saying yes, it's basically signaling to your manager that you are under capacity. Right. Because your manager doesn't think, oh, you're swart. They're like, oh, well, if they say yes, they must have time to do this. And so what I always say is say, oh, thank you for sharing that. Here's what I'm currently working on. Here's my current priorities. Is this thing that you're asking me to do more important than the other things that we've already agreed on? And half the time the answer is no. The manager will look and they'll be like, nope, you're right, actually this is more important. Like, keep going with your plan. But sometimes it will come up and they'll be like, actually yes. Like this is. This is really timely or this was an unexpected thing. And hey, let's get this one thing off your plate to get this thing on your plate instead. And again, it actually allows you to like show up as being more strategic. It's the prioritization that you mentioned earlier.

[Maya Grossman]

Right, exactly. And we also have to remember that when we say yes to too many things and we're overwhelmed, we're not going to do any of them well. So it's not good for us and for our reputation. It's better to do less things but do them really, really well. Especially if you want to get that promotion. It's not about how much you can get done, it's about the impact.

[Tamara Gominski]

So you've worked with marketers at like every stage of their career. I know you specialize a lot with like the more mid to senior. But I'm curious about what myths you keep seeing coming up time and time again about what it really takes to, to get promoted. So it's like I kind of heard one today which is like, you need to work harder. But what are some of the other ones?

[Maya Grossman]

Okay, this is going to get juicy. So I think first and foremost we need to get aligned on what a promotion is. So one of the biggest lies that we tell ourselves is that a promotion is a reward for doing your job well. And the reality Is, no, it's not. Because if that was the case, every single person who works hard will get a promotion. But it's not like in school, you can't have 20 people getting an A. So there's something else that actually drives promotions. And especially at the senior level, a promotion is a vote of confidence that you can do work at the next level. So if you're just busy doing your job really well, it's actually not going to get you promoted. It will keep you stuck. So I think that's the first thing we need to get out of our heads. Hard work alone will not get us promoted. I think the second one, which I see a lot, is I have to get an MBA or another certificate or another skill in if I want to get promoted. And that might have been true early in your career because you're still building the toolkit. But I think from the senior manager and above, it's not about that. What you actually need is more of those soft skills, the executive skills. And I think a lot of people, just because they assume that they need to wait for a credential, they just stay stuck. Not to mention, I have seen People with MBAs from Ivy League schools who can get promoted because they don't have the executive presence because it didn't actually solve the problem. So you don't need those credentials. You can probably get promoted without them. And I would say number three is that we all think that hard work speaks for itself. And this is a big one, because I know a lot of us just have been told, just stay humble, keep your head down, you will get there. And I think there are a lot of good intentions behind that. It's just not true because our work doesn't have a voice unless we actually put a voice behind it. And if senior leadership does not know what you're doing, if they have no idea of your impact, well, guess what? When promotion conversations are going to happen, your name will not come up because they literally just don't think of you. And we make this mistake thinking, if I stay quiet, it will make me humble. Right. Which is a very good quality to have. But in the corporate world, it just makes you invisible. And invisible people don't get promoted. So I think those are three big lies that just hold people back from even trying or send them in the wrong direction. So they do so much work, but they're not getting the result that they want.

[Tamara Gominski]

Yeah, there's so much to unpack there. I mean, I do want to double click on your middle one, which is around the credentials. Because I think hopefully this is changing as even AI is changing. You know, how people go to school and what people go to school for. But so early in my career I had this limiting belief of like, I don't have an mba, I'll never become a CEO. And at the time, that was kind of my ambition. But it's like, I don't have an mba. I did not go to an Ivy League school. I went to some random school in Canada. And I have been a VP twice and was in the C suite, you know, and so it's like, if I can do it, you can do it too. I really believe that. And to your point, I have met so many people who do have an MBA who get in their own way. Like, I do not think that that is like a qualifier for leadership at all.

[Maya Grossman]

Not at all. And I'll take it even a step further. I have one client I worked with who believed you will never become a VP because get this, she didn't even have a college degree. And because of that, you just didn't try. And after working together and just getting rid of that limiting belief, we didn't add skills, we didn't really do anything bigger than that. Six months later, she was a vp. And that's why I say some of these are just so bad, because we think they are truth, but they're not absolute truth. They're not facts. They're just ideas that someone shared and became very common. Except they're not the reality.

[Tamara Gominski]

Yeah, I'd love to double click into one of these kind of myths or lies. You can kind of choose which one. Just a really, like, make it real for the marketers who are listening in today. Like, how would this actually come to life for them? And how once they realize that they're in one of these little traps or these lies, could they start to climb out of it?

[Maya Grossman]

Yeah. So look, I spent about 20 years in corporate and like I shared with you 17 rejections. That was a very low point for me. I still have that spreadsheet, by the way. Every time one of my clients complains, I'm like, look at this. And I learned something really interesting. Because the way to get out of that funk, to actually get myself to the next level, I did two things. The first one is I went out and I actually interviewed any and all executives that would talk to me. So I'm talking 100 messages on LinkedIn. Completely cold. Because I wanted to know, what do these people have that I don't?

[Tamara Gominski]

Yes.

[Maya Grossman]

And I also hired a Coach, Because I wanted someone to put a mirror in front of me and tell me, what am I doing wrong. Not the really kind. Sandwich feedback. Oh, you're great. Keep doing what you're doing, which is nice for the ego, but doesn't actually help. And she gave me real feedback. And together, these two things. This is when I actually realized what it takes to get promoted. And there are only three things that you need. And I know this after helping hundreds of people do the same thing. The first thing and the first mistake that people actually make is, is the mindset trap. And we started touching on that. But this is when you actually stand in your own way. And this is what I call the invisible career killer. Because you can't see it, but it can hold you back for years. This is you telling yourself you're not ready, you're not good enough. I need that mba. I'm too old, I'm too young. All of the excuses. And the problem is when you believe that, then you don't show up. You don't raise your hand. You don't put yourself in situations to be successful. But if you want to be a leader, if you want to be an executive, you need to know how to have hard conversations. You need the confidence to stand up for yourself. You need to get into a room and push back and be able to do that and stand up for your ideas. So mindset is a key, but most of us stand in our own way, which unbelievable. But 80% of success is mindset. Only 20% is execution. So that's the first trap that people fall into. The second one is what we call the perception problem. This is when you have done such a good job with execution, you're the person they always go to. You are the most reliable, you're the doer, but you've done it so well that you put yourself in a box. They can only see you as someone who executes. They can't see your executive potential. And in corporate, perception is reality. We said how people see you is how they will treat you. So if they think you're really good at doing, you're going to get more work. If they see you as a strategic partner, they'll invite you to the table. So we need to make sure that we are sending the right signals and that we're showing people what we can do. And then the third trap is very much about visibility, which is that last lie of my work will speak for itself. But it doesn't. And where I see a lot of people fall is they just avoid Self promotion. They're like, I don't want to be that person. Or, you know, I'm so good that my work will speak for itself. And I have news for you. It won't. It doesn't matter how good you are. People don't read minds. Right? So we have to make sure that the right people not only know your name. That's not enough, but they can associate it with that executive potential. And I think when we fix those three, that's when people actually start shining, because it was never about their skill or marketing capabilities. It's about doing the right things to be seen as ready.

[Tamara Gominski]

Yeah, there's a lot there. And I think the first and second one are. I mean, they're all connected to mindset. So I think what you're right with, like, 80% of this is mindset. But even that second piece, like, in my experience, a lot of people who want to move up the ladder or get promoted are achievers. And mostly achievers have associated accomplishment with self worth. I'm speaking from my own personal experience because I'm an achiever, and I associate it with my own self worth. And honestly, part of the journey for me was untangling this and recognizing achievement looks different. It doesn't just have to be the amount of things I do. I love what you said earlier about, like, solving bigger problems, having a bigger impact. Like, that's achievement too. Right. But untangling all of that because we have been so ingratiated to be like, I need to add more to my do to do list. That means I'm achieving, and we do it to ourselves, you know? And you actually have to be willing to feel uncomfortable, I think, to unwind.

[Maya Grossman]

That and work on that belief. For me, when I just started this transition, I felt so weird blocking time on my calendar to think, exactly. No. But I'm not working. I'm stealing from the company. I'm not doing something worthwhile. Until I realized, wait a minute. All of these executives that I look up to, they get paid so much more. Not because they put in more hours, not because they know how to do everything, because they can think differently. And that was kind of the aha moment for me. Wait, so if that's the important thing, it makes sense that I'm making time for it. But, yeah, we need to unlearn a few things to get there.

[Tamara Gominski]

Yeah. I also love that you kind of shared the story around talking to others and asking yourself, like, what do they have that I don't have? Another way I could frame that too Is like, who do I actually want to emulate? Because I also think this is a trap I see people fall into, which is they see some leaders and they're like, well, that's what leadership is. I need to be more aggressive or I need to make decisions faster or I need to talk more. And yes, you do need to show up in meetings. You do need to be able to communicate your ideas. But leadership means so many different things. And I think once you understand what kind of leader you want to be, you're able to kind of like design your path to getting that promotion as well. At least that was true for me. And really having those role models of like, that is what I'm working towards.

[Maya Grossman]

Yeah, I agree. And I actually had the wrong role models for a while. So I've seen all of those super aggressive, very cold, distance, don't really like their team, and actually tried to do that for a while, but I got so frustrated and I was so tired of trying to fake it. And I think it goes back to that belief that people think that executive presence. Right. So what we're talking about, showing up like a leader. It's a one size fits all. You have to be Steve Jobs. That's the only way to do it. So that's the way we go. But what I Learned again after 20 years of being in corporate, is that it's not true. There are a lot of different flavors. Think about Michelle Obama and Steve Jobs. Both have executive presence, but they do it in a very different way. And what it taught me is, yes, there are some skills that demonstrate this ability, this connection and conviction, but how we show them is very different. And we can tap into our own strength and what we believe and what we love and do it authentically and still be great leaders. So I love that you mentioned not just, okay, tell me what you're doing differently, but who do I really want to be like or maybe get inspired by? Right. Because we're all unique and different. But it's important to have some sort of a direction of where you want to go.

[Tamara Gominski]

Exactly. And to your point, who you don't want to be as well.

[Maya Grossman]

Right.

[Tamara Gominski]

It's like just like how we have Personas in product marketing and like the anti Persona. It's like, who's your leadership model and your anti leadership role model.

[Maya Grossman]

Yeah. And this is actually so, so, so important because we spend a lot of time trying to live up to someone else's dreams, and our career is our career, and it needs to make us happy and fulfilled. And I'm okay with not being the best fit for every company because my style is not. I would much rather find a right place versus shrink myself. And I had a leader who wanted me to do that, who was like, you're too much. You're too aggressive. And even though most of my team was very happy, he couldn't see it. So I just realized I was in the wrong place. It wasn't that I was doing something wrong, but, yeah, it's definitely a process of tapping into who do you actually want to be?

[Tamara Gominski]

Just those casual existential questions. You have mentioned several times throughout this conversation. The term executive presence. And I'm sure anyone who's following along, who has, you know, some hopes of being promoted or has been promoted in the past, has heard this themselves. Right. It's just like, just don't have the right executive presence or keep working on your executive presence. What the heck does that even mean? Can you help us understand it?

[Maya Grossman]

Yeah, I know that's like one of those weird, bizarre buzzwords that no one knows what it means, but we can definitely break it down. I actually read something recently that really resonates. Resonated. It said, executive presence is like gravity. You can see it, but you can feel its pull.

[Tamara Gominski]

Yeah.

[Maya Grossman]

And I think that is true because it's hard to put it in words, but when we're in the environment and someone has that level of presence, we can feel it. And what I tried to do is to figure out, okay, what are the behaviors behind it? Because it's not talent. It's not something you're born with. It's not even charisma or a vibe. It's a set of behaviors that when you demonstrate them, other people receive them. As I'm senior, I'm ready for more. I can drive more impact. There's actually research from the center of Talent Innovation that breaks executive presence into three components. The first one is gravitas, which is just a fancy word to how you act, what you do every day. Then number two is communication. Not just what you say, but also how you write. And then the third part is how you show up. That's your appearance, how you carry yourself. And if you look at that, it means that what we do every single day, right, how we act, how we communicate, how we show up, either sends the message, I'm ready for more, or it doesn't. But it's not about doing more work. It's about changing how we do the work. And at the end of the day, there are only four things you need to know to Demonstrate executive presence. You need strategic thinking. That's a big one. You need to learn how to be more decisive so actually have judgment, make decisions. You need to learn how to influence both across and above. And you need to understand communication and storytelling at the executive level. And if you can do all four, then your daily actions will actually send the right message.

[Tamara Gominski]

And if someone's listening and they're like, oh, I don't have any of those, is that a sign that you are not ready for a leadership role and you just kind of really need to do some self thinking and reflection? Or is that a sign that maybe you just don't understand how you are showing up in those categories?

[Maya Grossman]

I think it's a little bit of both. I think we tend to be very critical of ourselves. So usually when people start my program, they do an assessment and 95% of the time they give themselves lower grades than anyone else will. So I think it's a little bit internal and a little bit external and sometimes we just don't know what it means. But I think with a little bit more clarity, that's when you can really understand, okay, this is what I need to do. So I actually have an idea what we can do. We're going to give people the what I call VP Marshmallow test. Okay. So essentially we're going to ask three questions and based on your answers, you're going to know which of the buckets you fall into and then what you need to work on. Okay?

[Tamara Gominski]

Okay. I love this. This is perfect.

[Maya Grossman]

Question number one. Think about some of the last meetings you've been to, especially meetings with senior leadership, and try to remember a time when you had an idea or you wanted to answer a question but you didn't. You just kind of kept it inside. Okay. If that happens a lot, then you might have a confidence problem. So you're going to fall into the first bucket of the mindset. Second question. Think about maybe again how decisions were made in the marketing department. So if you think about the strategy for Q4 or for 2026, were you part of the decision? Did someone come to you for advice? Were you considered, Were you part of the conversation or was it just sent to you? And if the answer, no, I wasn't really part of any of that, then it's probably that executive presence, the perception they think you can only get stuff done, not really lead. And question number three is going to be about the last trap. And you're going to ask yourself, if I was put up for promotion today, can I immediately, right now go to one senior leader and they will sponsor me, they will vouch for me and they will say, hell yes, Maya should get promoted. And if the answer is no, then you might have a visibility gap. But if you start with the assessment, you know where to focus and you can take more specific action.

[Tamara Gominski]

I love that that is super tangible. And I think it's so overwhelming sometimes to just be like, I don't know, like, I feel like I'm trying everything and I love that there's like somewhere to start, you know, or maybe like you said, maybe two of those you feel. But that's fine. Then start with both of those categories too. But at least you can kind of chip away at something actionable. The one thing I want to add about the visibility piece and I just curious in your perspective of this, like, I think self advocacy super important, but one thing I did earlier in my career that I advise people to do now is to understand, like if your name was mentioned in a room and you weren't there, do you have like five champions at the company that would like advocate for you or jump on the conversation and be like, oh yeah, tomorrow is great. Did you see that thing she delivered? I kind of call them like my champions. Is that a good way of thinking about it as well? Or how do you view, like other people giving you visibility, not just you giving yourself visibility?

[Maya Grossman]

Yeah. So I love that you bring this up because there's this thing that I look at and I call it strategic visibility. And it's the combination of self promotion, but also getting other people to vouch for you. And the reason that it matters so much is because first and foremost, and you already know this at the executive level, promotions are a team sport. You have to have social proof. You need other people to basically say, yes, this is the right decision. We want to promote tomorrow. And think of it kind of like getting five star reviews, but in real life. And it's not enough for someone to just know your name because imagine this situation, it's a promotion conversation. Your manager puts you up for a promotion and he looks around the room and no one talks. That promotion is not happening. We need to have other people to say yes. Because making promotion decisions, especially at the senior level, it is very expensive. And if companies are going to make mistakes, it's going to cost them a lot. So they want to be sure. How are they sure? By getting those sponsors or champions. And that has to happen way before the conversation. What I see people do, it's like two weeks before performance review and they just find someone random and then they're like, oh, can you please put in a good word? This person doesn't know them, they have nothing to say, and it falls flat. So you have to build those relationships in advance.

[Tamara Gominski]

Yeah, And I think they have to be authentic too. Like, I love your example of, like, yeah, if you go to someone two weeks before and you're like, can you mention my name? It's like, that feels transactional versus being like, who are a few people around the organization that I want to partner with that I view as peers or influential players or leaders I look up to? How do I develop an authentic relationship with them where they actually genuinely understand my work, they genuinely understand my strengths and also understand maybe my gaps, so they can speak to that authentically too. The first time I realized how important this was was when I was a VP hiring a director on my team. And in my mind I was like, well, this is so easy. Obviously this person should be promoted to director. And when, to your point, when I brought it to the other slt, like senior leadership team leaders, everyone was like, well, like, is that person ready? And it wasn't the slam dunk I thought. And I was like, oh, wow, this person has not done enough, like socializing or relationship building. And there was nothing I could do to help that person. And that's why now, moving forward, I always tell people that, like, build those relationships, be known.

[Maya Grossman]

And it's one of those things that we think it's not work, so we push it back. I mean, for years I thought networking was for losers. I'm like, no need. I'm just so good at what I do. But relationships are probably one of the most important things in corporate because people move companies, and if you know the right people, everything is going to be easier. I remember when I just joined Microsoft, I was supposed to go to an off site and it was just two days. So I booked a flight for, like three days. And my manager said, no, no, no, no, no, Take the week because you need to network. And I said, this is my second week at the company. No one knows me. Who am I going to network with? And he said, you have to build relationships because these are the people that will eventually sign off on projects, on, you know, budgets, everything. And I actually spent a week just having conversations. And those conversations paid off big time when I needed things to move faster, when I needed approvals, and even when I was up for promotion. So hands down, one of the most important skills to have and something that so many people neglect totally I mean.

[Tamara Gominski]

It'S the whole, I believe that it's the whole thesis behind why I built PMM camp as well, which was like, at some, some point in your career, it's not about the skills you've developed, it's about the people you know, both just for empathy and like understanding. Like, wow, someone sees me. But also for all those connections, right, that referrals are going to get you jobs or those relationships with your co workers are going to get your projects greenlit faster. Or maybe something really magical in your personal life will happen just through relationships. Like, relationships are the power that like hold us all together 100%.

[Maya Grossman]

But a lot of us high achievers have the tendency to want to be superheroes and we forget that there are other people and there's power in numbers. It is a lot easier to move things along, especially if it's a huge project, if you have support. So yeah, those relationships are priceless.

[Tamara Gominski]

I love that. Well, this has been such an incredible conversation, honestly. So much valuable information and just starting points for folks who are wondering, like, why am I not moving ahead faster than I am? Well, we like to wrap up every episode with one final question, which is what is one marketing hill you would die on?

[Maya Grossman]

Okay, so I thought about this and I actually have one that works for marketing and for careers.

[Tamara Gominski]

I love it.

[Maya Grossman]

And it's basically marketing 101, which is when you market to everyone, you market to no one. And it's true in marketing, right, we need to niche down. We need to understand our audience. We need to have specific offers if we actually want to sell. But it's the same in our careers. We can't be the right person for everything and everyone. We can't apply for every role. We need to have our own story. And one last example that I will share. When I was going through those 17 rejections and I was talking to people, one VP told me, Listen, you're probably barking at the wrong tree. And she said, there are three types of VPs. There are the builders. So these are the people who show up first, build everything from the ground up. There are the scalers. So they join probably halfway. The company is already making money. They make everything. Bigger processes, people. And there are enterprise VPs and they actually spend more time on the vision and the future and relationships they don't do the day to day. You will not be the best fit for all of these even though they have the same title. So learn to market yourself for the right role. And guess what? The minute I started doing that, magically offers started coming in. So true in marketing. True in life. When you market to everyone, you market to no one. Be specific.

[Tamara Gominski]

I love that 100%. I will agree with that. Where can listeners find out more about you? Your work, the resources, your book, all of the good stuff.

[Maya Grossman]

Yeah, so you can definitely find me on LinkedIn. That's the easiest. Maya Grossman and we actually run a masterclass a few times a year. It's absolutely free. It goes a lot deeper than what we did today and it's always on my LinkedIn profile so you can find it.

[Tamara Gominski]

I love that. Highly recommend people join. I've heard only good things about the masterclass and it's free, so why not? Thanks again for coming on the show, Maya. It was such a great time.

[Maya Grossman]

Thank you.

[Daniel Murray]

Thanks so much for listening. Keep tuning in to hear more great insights from the coolest marketers from around the world. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe and follow the Marketing Millennials podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. And if you like what you hear, I would greatly appreciate you giving us a five star rating. It helps bring more marketers into our community.