Going from Social to the Super Bowl, with Lucas Coyle, Director of Brand Media & Awareness at MANSCAPED (CTV Mini-Series Episode #3)

Summary

The Marketing Millennials – CTV Mini-Series Episode #3

Episode Title: Going from Social to the Super Bowl
Host: Daniel Murray
Guests: Lucas Coyle (Director of Brand Media & Awareness, MANSCAPED), Mauricio Eleazarazu (Tatari)
Date: March 17, 2026

---

Overview

This episode of The Marketing Millennials dives deep into the changing landscape of TV advertising, focusing on how MANSCAPED grew from a digital-first, social-centric brand into one with Super Bowl presence, by embracing converged TV as both a performance and brand channel. Host Daniel Murray is joined by Lucas Coyle (MANSCAPED) and Mauricio Eleazarazu (Tatari) for a candid discussion on TV’s powerful new role in full-funnel marketing, tactical advice for scaling, measurement, and making audacious moves like Super Bowl advertising accessible to non-mega brands.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Evolution of MANSCAPED’s Brand and TV Journey

• From Taboo to Full Scope:

  • MANSCAPED started as a “below-the-waist grooming” disruptor, using humor to normalize male self-care. Over time, the brand expanded to a comprehensive line of men’s grooming and hygiene products, necessitating a new narrative in their advertising ([03:23]).
  • “We started as like a below the waist grooming brand. We were the first to tackle that like traditionally taboo category led with humor and a high quality product… The bigger mission's always been to normalize male grooming and self care, but doing it in a way that feels approachable, maybe a little irreverent while all still being a premium product.” – Lucas Coyle [03:23]

• Brand Evolution Slogan:

  • "We've called it going from ball to all.” – Lucas Coyle [04:38]

• Why TV Became Core:

  • TV first started as an audience-expanding experiment; now it’s a full-on growth channel with equal focus on performance metrics ([05:06]).
  • The mandate is to prove measurable ROI, integrate with digital KPIs, and use TV for both brand storytelling and performance lift.

2. Modern TV Buying & Tech-Enabled Measurement

• The Need for Converged TV:

  • MANSCAPED prioritizes unified measurement across linear and streaming, transparency, and buying power for event opportunities ([08:12]).
    • “The ability to bring linear and streaming together into the same measurement strategy... and keep it all under the same measurement framework. The second is transparency… and the third is buying power, testing into bigger moments.” – Lucas Coyle [08:12]
  • Tatari’s platform enables the above by providing:
    • Scale to access all of TV (not just programmatic),
    • Cross-platform measurement,
    • Efficient direct publisher relationships for better rates and agility ([10:28]).

• Programmatic vs. Direct vs. Converged:

  • Programmatic is limited (only 7% of ad-supported TV is accessible this way), expensive, and lacks premium buys ([10:28]).
  • Direct buys through partners like Tatari offer scale, efficiency, and access to big ticket tentpole events such as the Super Bowl ([10:28], [35:49]).

Notable Quote:

• “If you just focus on streaming or you just focus on linear or just programmatic, you’re kind of siloing yourself and limiting where you can go in terms of scale, measurement and… efficiency.” – Mauricio Eleazarazu [11:52]

3. Measuring TV Like Digital: Incrementality & the Halo Effect

• Unified Data = Smarter Planning:

  • MANSCAPED uses a dynamic mix between linear and streaming, letting data drive decisions about targeting, placement, and creative ([21:30]).

• Creative Fatigue & Journey Mapping:

  • Avoid running the same creative to exhaustion; rotate creatives and message types (performance/DR vs. storytelling) to keep audiences engaged ([13:33], [16:35]).

• TV’s Full-Funnel & ‘Halo’ Impact:

  • TV isn’t just top-funnel; it impacts branded search, DTC conversions, marketplace sales (Amazon), and multiplies returns from digital channels ([28:26], [29:51]).
  • Attribution has improved; Tatari can demonstrate TV’s ‘halo effect’ across other channels via data science ([30:43]).
  • “It's not always going to be in the same session conversions as we see with some of our other channels. We need to follow the assisted conversions, branded search, direct traffic...” – Lucas Coyle [28:26]

4. Strategic Scaling: From Testing to Tentpole Events

• Data-Led Expansion:

  • Brands should prove TV’s performance (CPA, CAC, incrementality) before scaling into high-profile buys like playoffs or live award shows ([06:28]).

• Surprising Placement Wins:

  • Testing non-obvious placements like Bravo, E!, and The Bachelor yielded strong results (many female buyers purchase MANSCAPED for partners or themselves). Testing outside of presumed “male-dominated” placements uncovers new audiences ([23:20]).

Notable Moment:

• “Some of those more female skewing channels have been a little bit of a surprise. We know that a lot of females buy our products for, you know, seasonal gifting events... it's been a little bit of a shock to see how well some of those female skewing channels and audiences have done when we've put our programming against them.” – Lucas Coyle [23:20]

• Creative Allocation: Brand Storytelling vs. DR:

  • Major seasons or product launches = brand-driven spots.
  • DR/Performance spots support upper funnel and push consideration (“bring people through the funnel”) ([16:35]).

5. Super Bowl-Level Ambitions: Process & Pitfalls

• Path to Super Bowl:
  • MANSCAPED didn’t jump in blindly; they evaluated the options over several years, assessed their business readiness, and bought an impactful pre-game slot as a strategic, affordable alternative to standard in-game buys ([33:46]).
  • Tatari’s publisher relationships made these opportunities accessible and cost-effective ([35:32]).

Notable Quotes:

• “It's not like we woke up one morning and decided we were buying a Super bowl spot. It was more like we talked one afternoon and decided we were buying a Super bowl spot.” – Lucas Coyle [33:46]
• "You can't buy the Super Bowl programmatically...having those direct publisher relationships really helps alter that conversation.” – Mauricio Eleazarazu [35:49]

6. Operationalizing ‘Always On’ TV

• Moving Beyond One-Off Campaigns:

  • To treat TV as a true business driver, shift from sporadic, campaign-based buying to always-on, data-iterated execution.
  • Use consistent data review to iterate, optimize creative, audience, and channel mix ([37:34]).

• Creative Fit & Adaptation:

  • Build bespoke TV creative, don’t just repurpose digital assets. Even then, keep testing digital-style assets for CTV/programmatic as well ([37:34]).

7. Advice for Brands Starting with TV

• Performance First, Then Scale:

  • Obsess over CAC and measurable impact before expanding, avoid ‘siloed’ thinking ([40:24]).

• Test Broadly, Prove with Data:

  • Challenge assumptions about audiences and placements; let data reveal what works. Don’t optimize too fast; give campaigns time to show true effect ([25:23], [27:21]).

• Brand Halo:

  • TV builds not only direct outcomes, but magnifies brand presence (perceived scale, trust, legitimacy) ([42:09]).
  • “Having an ad at the Super Bowl makes Manscaped look 20, 30x bigger because you’re on the same stage with all these big brands.” – Daniel Murray [42:09]

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• "TV has always been a performance channel. Marketers are just catching up to what's possible." – Daniel Murray [00:00]
• "We started as a below-the-waist grooming brand… The bigger mission's always been to normalize male grooming and self care." – Lucas Coyle [03:23]
• "If you just focus on streaming or you just focus on linear or just programmatic, you’re kind of siloing yourself...” – Mauricio Eleazarazu [11:52]
• "Creative fatigue is a real thing… how do we balance that out with a mix that keeps it exciting?” – Lucas Coyle [13:33]
• "The key step for us was changing the way we looked at it… you only unlock it if you treat it with the same rigor that you do the channels that you're native to." – Lucas Coyle [37:34]
• "Don’t underestimate the business-wide impact of TV… you’ll see your Meta retargeting or Google retargeting skyrocket.” – Mauricio Eleazarazu [41:16]
• "Having an ad at the Super Bowl makes Manscaped look 20, 30x bigger because you’re on the same stage with all these big brands.” – Daniel Murray [42:09]

---

Important Timestamps

• 02:04 – Lucas introduces MANSCAPED’s evolution and his role
• 03:23 – Brand mission, category origins, and shift to total grooming
• 05:06 – How and why TV became central to performance and storytelling
• 08:12 – MANSCAPED's rationale for using Tatari: convergence, transparency, buying power
• 10:28 – Mauricio explains the importance of scale, measurement, and efficiency in converged TV
• 13:33 – Addressing challenges in DTC/CPG TV (crowded market, creative fatigue, proving value)
• 16:35 – How MANSCAPED balances brand storytelling vs. DR in TV campaigns
• 21:30 – MANSCAPED’s approach to linear vs. streaming mix—data-driven and campaign-fluid
• 23:20 – Surprising results from “non-male”/female-skewed editorial placements
• 28:26 – Measuring the “TV halo” and moving to always-on, system-thinking in TV
• 30:43 – Tatari’s “halo impact analysis”—connecting TV to other channel lifts
• 33:46 – How MANSCAPED got into the Super Bowl: pregame placement, strategic fit, Tatari’s role
• 35:49 – Power of Tatari's publisher relationships versus programmatic or traditional agency buying
• 37:34 – Recommendations for brands evolving their TV investment & execution
• 42:09 – The brand ‘halo’ of appearing on TV and tentpole moments like the Super Bowl

---

Final Takeaways

• TV is back—measurable, accessible, and vital for modern full-funnel marketing.
• Success on TV requires digital-level performance discipline, unified measurement, and consistent testing.
• Always look at TV’s ripple effects, both on digital channels and brand perception.
• Treat TV as both a brand-builder and direct driver; avoid isolated, campaign-only thinking.
• Direct publisher relationships (like Tatari’s) unlock opportunities—tentpole events, better rates, and better data—that programmatic alone can’t match.
• Creative and channel allocation must evolve constantly, driven by performance data—not industry assumptions or historical bias.

---

For marketers seeking actionable, real-world TV strategies and inspiration to scale their brand from “zero to Super Bowl,” this episode delivers a clear playbook and critical insights.

Transcript

[A]

TV is back. And I don't mean the TV you grew up watching. I'm talking about TV as a performance channel, measurable, scalable, and finally accessible to brands of all sizes. I'm partnering with Atari to pull back the curtain on what it actually looks like to run TV like a modern marketer. We're talking linear streaming, ctv, all of it in one place. Here's how we're structuring this. We're going from zero to hero. Growth brands, testing TV for the first time. Mid market brands scaling, scaling what's working. Enterprise brands building full brand strategies and yes, super bowl campaigns. And then we're getting tactical on how you can plan and budget for TV in 2026. TV has always been a performance channel. Marketers are just catching up to what's possible. And Atari is the platform making it happen. They give gross teams access to all of TV and let them evaluate it the same way they evaluate paid search or paid social. No black boxes, no guessing, just results you can tie back to your business. This is the TV series for marketers who are done leaving this channel on the table, excited to dive in. Welcome to the Marketing Millennials, the no BS Marketing podcast. I'm Daniel Murray and join me for unfiltered conversations with the brains behind marketing's coolest companies. The one request I tell our guests stories or it didn't happen. Get ready to turn the off. We are back with another episode of the Marketing Millennials. And this is the third episode in our series. This one is focused on enterprise TV advertiser with a strong history of running across TV and streaming. And we're going to get into this episode. We have Lucas from Manscape and Mauricio from Tatari. Excited to chat. But Lucas, do you want to take up go first and introduce yourself.

[B]

Yeah, my name is Lucas. Thanks so much for having me and having Manscaped as a part of this. I am the director of brand marketing and awareness here. I've been with Manscaped about five years live in a small town in central Oregon in Bend. But yeah, I started on like the sports marketing side with Manscaped, came from the team side and worked in sports for a number of years. And then, yeah, I've grown to take over our full suite of brand marketing. So it's been a really exciting journey and I'm fortunate to work with the fine folks over at Tatari for part

[A]

of it and Mauricio. I mean, they're fortunate to work with you. So you're gonna hype yourself up now.

[C]

Thanks Man. Yeah. Appreciate it. Really happy to be here with both Lucas and you, Daniel. My name is Maurice Ilizarazu. I run the client development team here at Tatari, based on the west coast. Got started in performance advertising. 15 years. Pretty much had CPA carved across my forehead my entire career. And I'm really just here today to kind of talk more about manscaped enterprise tv. Excited to chat and go from there.

[A]

Okay, we're going to get into this, but before we get into the strategy, for anybody who hasn't heard of manscaped, could you give us the quick pitch? Who are you building for and what makes the brand different?

[B]

Yeah, we started as like a below the waist grooming brand. We were the first to tackle that like traditionally taboo category led with humor and a high quality product. And that's really like how most people know about us. And probably the first thing that comes to mind when people hear manscaped or manscaping, they just immediately jump to groin grooming. But over time, we've really grown into a full men's grooming brand. We offer a full suite of trimmers that are tailored specifically for various parts of the body and grooming needs. We've got a full line of wet goods, skin care, hygiene kits. So really needing to tell that story of where we are today versus what people knew us in that initial push. The bigger mission's always been to normalize male grooming and self care, but doing it in a way that feels approachable, maybe a little irreverent while all still being a premium product.

[A]

And I think a lot of people who watch the super bowl might have seen manscaped ad and you were trying to push away from the so called manscaping what it was known for when you first pushed out. You're trying to go for all hair, all face body and all that stuff.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. We've called it going from ball to all of that. Like the easiest way to pitch it, you just cut out the first letter. And I think that's really the mission that we've been on and where we've gotten to.

[A]

I want to get into a little bit of the strategy. And you've built a really recognizable brand by doing tv. So what makes sense that TV became part of the equation. You're not new to the channel though. So what's your relationship with TV and how has it evolved?

[B]

Yeah, when we started, I mean, manscaped in general was so digital, first social, short form, very performance driven. And TV was initially just a way to expand the audience and Sort of something we knew we would be testing into eventually. Really trying to tell more complete stories, be a bit more longer form, showcase our product quality. But what's changed is we don't really treat TV like a branding experiment anymore. It's really become more of a growth channel for us. It has to drive both brand and performance and we measure it that way. I think, you know, coming into it we needed to measure it in a way that was native to what we'd been seeing for paid media, paid social. So to Mauricio's point about cpa, like we needed to be able to have an answer for that and look at that with, with a really performance driven lens. So that's where we started and where we've gotten, we continue to today to add more to it. So it's telling a more holistic story for like how it impacts our broader business and what does that TV halo look like?

[A]

And Mauricio, I want to go into like, what are you seeing with like the like mature advertisers in the space when it comes to tv?

[C]

Yeah, I mean most advertisers, to Lucas's point, first have to establish that TV performs. Is it driving response, Is it driving cpa, cac incrementality? Once advertisers have done that, that's where TV gets really exciting. That's when you can start exploring live events, sports, things like the Grammys, the Super Bowl.

[B]

Right.

[C]

That's kind of the golden goose for most brands. So once brands have really established that foundation of performance, that's when they can start picking out, okay, well where are we going to get more of that? Where are we going to find better audiences and more incremental audiences? So a lot of mature advertisers, they'll test and do let's say like a NBA game, you know, they'll do like Lakers, warriors and see a huge response. They'll go, okay, well maybe we should now do an NBA playoff game or more marquee matchup. So it's really just leading with data and letting the data kind of guide our optimizations go. But you first have to figure out where performance is before you make that massive heavy up investment in a larger tent pole event or a premium opportunity.

[A]

Yeah, that's, that's a super smart way go at the lower maybe fire sale type buys of and then work your way up to okay, I need to go from a smaller basketball game to a key matchup to playoffs to maybe finals. If we're seeing sell through and CAC and all that, all that good stuff working. So that's super smart strategy. I want to go to you, Lucas. Basically that shift from always on requires the right infrastructure behind it, which is where platform side of things come in. What attracted Manscape to working with Atari versus going more traditional or purely programmatic? Ctv.

[B]

Yeah, and I really think it goes into three buckets for us. I'd say the first we would call a need for convergent tv. The ability to bring linear and streaming together into the same measurement strategy. I think I would assume a lot of brands go into it just buying like programmatically and we wanted to have the option to go linear in streaming. And yeah, like I said, just keep it all under the same measurement platform and measurement framework. And then the second is transparency. We wanted that visibility into a dashboard that was able to track our KPIs really clearly and as I said earlier, really kind of stay consistent with the way we were measuring media in other channels. So we had sort of like a North Star to be comparing back to, you know, that like new customer site traffic, search, lift, etc. And then the third bucket is honestly the, the buying power that working with a partner like Tatari offers allows us to test into some of those bigger moments. Like I'm not sure we would be aware of some of those fire sales you were talking about of you know, getting into the NBA Finals or the World Series or something like that. And certainly not at the same same price tag allowed us to not be as locked into those big upfront costs and upfront budget commitments and really have that flexible budget so that we could sort of toggle on and off as needed early on as hey, this is really working, let's lean in a bit more or hey, we're seeing a little bit of a down cycle, let's pause or let's pivot our creative accordingly. And then yeah, that. So really it's just, you know, Tatari was able to give us the, that converged view, real time reporting and, and make us more confident in how we were approaching tv.

[A]

Marisa, how does that look like from your side of things? Like you're seeing let's say the bear or like these like all these different types of buys and you're going to manscape or your other clients and telling them, hey, this will work well for your audience. How does it look like in the back end when working with Manscape?

[C]

Yeah, I mean converging TV is really important, I would say for three main things. One is scale, then measurement, then incrementality. Scale is really quite Simple. If you really think about it holistically, let's say that Manscape only did Programmatic and that's all they focus in on. That still permits a tiny sliver of all TV. Something like 7% of all total ad supported TV is even available programmatically. So you're missing out on 93% if you do not go beyond that. So the very first thing is scale, right? It gives Manscape the ability to be in live sports, to be on the Bear on Hulu, to be on the Roku channel, or to be on Tubi, wherever it is. So it gives them a ton of scale. The second piece is measurement. A lot of the times they a consumer won't even know that they're watching streaming TV. I'm sure a lot of us here have YouTube TV. A lot of those ads are plugging in straight from the broadcast feed. So if you have no way of actually measuring that holistically, Lucas and other brands are gonna have a very, very hard time to make sense of it all. So we give them one platform to measure all of it. And the last thing is really just efficiency. Programmatic is really expensive. It's a very, very strong tool. Great targeting, great levers you can pull. Everything's in pretty much real time, but it's really, really expensive. So someone like Lucas, you could really lean into those direct publisher relationships or those fire sale opportunities and get in front of those same exact eyeballs and impressions at a fraction of the cost. So in reality, converging TV is really what TV is because if you just focus on streaming or you just focus on linear or just programmatic, you're kind of siloing yourself and limiting where you can go in terms of scale, measurement and of course most importantly efficiency.

[A]

And then you like the walled garden effect. If you don't have a platform, you buy on Programmatic and then you have to go find like direct buy somewhere else and you're just, you're going to find a place, a way to measure it all. And it becomes hell when it comes to that. Because we know you need, you need measuring to win. Especially in this day and age with marketing is going to get more and more budget. You need some sort of tracking tool to tell you if it's working or not.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, hey, we all have less time ad I have a one year old at home. I'm sure Lucas is also very busy. You don't have time to have five or six different vendors giving you four, six different reports and you got to stitch it all together. So it makes it a lot easier just to have one platform to buy and measure it all in one roof.

[B]

Yeah, I have a 17 month old, so it's really similar here.

[A]

You might have heard my seven month old crying in the background two minutes ago. Yeah. So we all have kids, so that's good. We're on the all parents trying to fight for their life and do marketing at the same time. So I love it. But I want to go. I know the. So once you've like sorted out this infrastructure problem, I know that like D2C and CPG is such a crowded space and you're all chasing the same eyeballs and audiences. So what specific challenges do you see in the TV marketplace for a brand like Manscape?

[B]

Yeah, you nailed it. I mean it may come as a surprise we're not the only brand that wants to be with live sport and the mail skewing sort of cable providers. And that's an objective I think a lot of folks take. It's where you see a lot of the most traction and engagement, especially on linear. And the prices reflect that. Right. Prices continue to rise on those obvious linear spots and on some of the CTV platforms as well. So clutter is like a really big hurdle for us and how we navigate that. How do we show up a little bit differently? How do we keep that somewhat irreverent manscape tone when we show up? It's a tricky one. So that creative piece is also really, really important to us for tv. We do view it as both a performance driver and a brand piece as we've talked about. And we have creative that matches that. We have brand intended creative that's more storytelling like what you saw in Super Bowl. And then we also have Dr. Versions of that and more Dr. Native creatives as well that are really leaning into the product descriptions. Our CTAs are much stronger and really try to call out more of the features of why you choose manscaped and they both land on tv. It's really like what do we expect to see when we run each of those and forecasting and setting expectations internally based on what we're planning to run. It's also really important to avoid that over showing or creative wear. If you just start a campaign with one video and you just launch it and see what happens. I think oftentimes people get pretty fatigued of seeing the same one over and over again, especially as we increase budgets for television. How do we balance that out with a mix that keeps it exciting or slight variations or behind the scenes content included in there as well. And then the third challenge, I would say is like, that internal pressure to show more than just TV accomplishes, like reach and awareness. For manscaped, it's how are we contributing to acquisition? How are we driving revenue? They're not easy challenges to tackle, but I think we continue to make progress each year and with each campaign and with each creative that we're putting out there. I think it's just that ability to see each performance compared to the past and try to test these different little tweaks. We're not shy to try new things and take some risks in our creative too.

[A]

How are you deciding when to launch a brand storytelling creative on, say, a Super bowl buy versus more of a doctor type creative on another channel? Like, how are you deciding where you're launching Dr. Creative vs Brand? Or is it the same channel or is it different channels?

[B]

I would say there's like seasonal tent poles for us that we're launching brand around, and it's more dictated by that. Like, our business needs, like, we want to tell a story about a product that's coming out, or we really have a key focus that we have to let everyone know that we aren't just a ball grooming brand, that we've got products for elsewhere. So it's like we have an initiative that sparks the brand piece of it, and the doctor sort of comes in as a balance, like knowing that it's not going to drive the same performance. We try to keep the campaign as balanced as we can because we. So that's when the doctor comes in to sort of have a version of that brand creative. So we're still supporting recall and still getting the frequency up on that visual and that story, but also adding in that component of like that quick second where you just saw the lawnmower. Here's a little bit more about the lawnmower. And then here's a version that's. You saw the beard hedger. Here's a little bit more about the beard hedger. So it's kind of like trying to have that balance where we get to do our storytelling and then support it. And think about how me as a viewer, my experience, if I saw the first, the second, the third, and try to bring people through the funnel that way.

[A]

Marisha, I want to go into like. So how do you. How does like, the unified data across linear and streaming actually change planning decisions for, like, say, manscaped and other buyers?

[C]

Yeah, it completely changes the view and perspective for someone like a manscaped, especially on Lucas's team. Because now he can log into the platform and see exactly how his creator performs, not just across certain publishers, but also across both linear and streaming. So for Lucas, he can log into the platform, he can say, okay, cool. Creative concept one, A two, which is more of a branding kind of creative, actually had this downstream effect on his campaign. Maybe it had a lower cac, but it really was able to drive website visits. And then he can look at it both holistically across linear and streaming, or just on streaming properties. The other piece too, right, that's just for looking at creative, but overall for inventory, it creates an incredibly strong way for you to really isolate where TV is driving that impact. So when we had that quick example earlier of how to get into firestore opportunities, you really should know which fire sale opportunities to take a swing at. And having a platform that's really unifying both streaming and linear allows you to do that. The other piece too, that a lot of I would say marketers overlook is that they really get kind of addicted to that really niche kind of targeting. We all have cell phones, right? We all get really good IG targeted ads. A lot of people kind of note this as a downside of tv, but could actually be a positive. When you're watching tv, you're not watching it alone. You're usually watching it with your wife, your partner, your friends, or whatever it may be. So a brand like Manscaped could actually start uncovering, hey, you know what? Even though this was a male focused campaign, we saw a really strong response from females. And that's what a lot of brands have noticed, is that because TV isn't so addicted to that very niche one to one targeting, and it opens it up a bit more, it gives brands a really strong way to kind of learn more about who their audience is. So someone like a Lucas could now say, okay, wait a minute, actually females are really buying our products. That wasn't the intention of the campaign. But the data that we're able to get from that broader targeting, especially on linear TV that you're able to do really helps uncover new revenue channels for tons of brands out there.

[A]

Yeah, that's a good point. Because if you think how many times, for example, sports, it's either watched with you or your partner or, or you're having a watch party or it's at a bar with 30, 40, 50 people watching, not many channels. You could get that many eyeballs at one time on a screen. Most of it's just like one to one. But like Facebook, nobody's looking over your phone and being like, oh, look at that ad together where TV you have. You can get 50, 60 eyeballs if you're at a bar watching the same exact ad as everybody else, which is pretty cool on one screen.

[B]

So.

[C]

Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, I've never. I've never wanted to watch Love island, but I've definitely been there right next to my wife when she does. So maybe, hey, it's female targeted, but, you know, you're also getting me on those eyeballs, too.

[A]

I feel like. I feel like all guys say, like, they don't want to watch it, and then they're watching it more than their wife.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's just how it ends up happening. Like, my wife watches the Housewives, and I'm like, oh, I'll sit and watch with you. And then I'm like, end up watching the whole show. And I don't know why I did.

[B]

Yeah, I've been the one putting on Love Island All Stars. My wife's like, I think we're over this. I'm like, we're not over this.

[C]

We got more.

[A]

So, Lucas, I know you're constantly navigating the balance between where to put dollars across linear and streaming. So walk us through how you think about that split. Is the frame, Is there a framework or is it more of fluid based on what the data tells you?

[B]

It's pretty fluid. We really do follow the data. I will say, like, linear still wins for that broad reach, especially around those major sports like super and major tent polls, like super bowl or Love island premieres. I think showing up there is really important to get those reach numbers as a part of your campaign and a part of your TV strategy. But streaming, we're a bit more refined, maybe even a little bit surgical. We try to be more targeted and add more demographic layers onto what we're doing and who we're running our ads for. Try to reach that, like, younger, cord cutting audience, which I think we do very well with as a brand. The key is really just to have a mix that's not static and changes based on the campaign that we have live, the creative that we have live the time of the year, what we're trying to achieve as a brand in that moment or with that creative. And we always try to just continue to be testing as well. So trying to, hey, Tatari is saying that this streaming platform is something we should be considering for whatever reason, and let's give it a shot. They make the barrier of entry pretty achievable. And so we start Bringing in more and more. And honestly it's where we found some really great incremental lift and drove the most site traffic is on some of these ones that we wouldn't expect. Um, and I think initially we were just planning on, let's just do cheap linear sports and sports adjacent highlight shows and things like that. And where we stand now is a lot more complex. I think we would have missed out a ton if we had just stuck with that initial. Like let's make sure we're running on Sports center and in big male dominated events.

[A]

What, what were the placements that actually really surprised you when you, when you bought into.

[B]

I don't think we've run on Love island, but some of like those like reality TV shows have been really surprising. Like we've done some, some of the Bachelor we've done because you're right, it's catching a room of people where there's usually, you know, multiple folks watching, but also running on Bravo, running on E. And some of like those more female skewing networks have been a little bit of a surprise. We know that a lot of females buy our products for, you know, seasonal gifting events, I would say, and sometimes even for themselves too. I've got a white product that we have behind us that's been doing very well with female consumers buying for themselves. And so I think, yeah, it's, it's been a little bit of a shock to see how well some of like those female skewing channels and audiences have done when we've put our programming against them.

[A]

Yeah, it's good to test those things because I know, for example, guys don't like to buy like, like things that, those type of things like razors or deodorant and stuff. It's annoying buys to them. But if their wife sees it or their girlfriend sees it, they're like, hey, we need you to buy this. Like they're like the, the convincing factor in the room. So it's super helpful to get. Or if their wife sees it, they could say, hey, reminder to buy that razor. Or reminded you need to, you need to groom a little bit. Go buy that right now. So I think that's super important.

[B]

It's definitely evolving. But like that self care piece is kind of tough for a lot of guys. Like they just sort of like won't even notice it, won't think to buy it. And then you show it in front of an audience that is regularly buying self care products, like body products, you know, lotions, all the different things that women typically will consume in the beauty space. And they say, oh, you need this too. Like, it's okay to take care of yourself. Sometimes you need someone looking out for you.

[A]

Yeah, Marisa, how have you seen like the optimizations that people are making and things like that?

[C]

It's a bit interesting. You know, for branding goals, you do need a little bit longer of a window before you start making those optimizations. I would say for brands that are just starting, you typically want to kind of buy and plan week to week. But at the end of the month, you really want to take a harder look at how everyone performs. I think a lot of advertisers get a little bit too mixed up into saying, oh, you know, we saw a great response, let's optimize in and out of that network. But sometimes TV campaigns need a little bit more time to breathe. So the way we do that at Tatari is we can actually forecast out what that performance will look like. So brands are able to be a bit more agile. A lot of mistakes brands make is that they'll, you know, they'll spend for months on end and then finally their mmm tells them something different or their attribution tells them something different. So I'm all for shifting into high spending networks or higher performing networks. Excuse me, but you really want to be able to trust that data and let that data really breathe. The real goal, I would say for a lot of advertisers when they come in with us, you know, it really isn't just to hit their cat goal in the first month. It's to uncover which exact publishers, audiences and networks can hit their cat goal. So that way, in that second, third and fourth month, you're only shifting spend on those top performers versus just kind of making wholesale changes month over month without really understanding what works. And that's really where having that conversion platform makes a huge, huge difference. Because if you just try to pick this off one by one, you're not really buying on tv, you're just buying programmatic or you're just buying linear or you're just buying streaming. So it's really important for advertisers when they test tv, they don't really have any kind of bias and they test it fully. A lot of brands are surprised both ways sometimes, like, oh yeah, nobody watches linear tv, but hey, older people are actually buying their product or they hey, you know what, our product doesn't really do well for younger audiences. And then boom, out of nowhere, now younger people are buying their product. So don't just kind of limit yourselves by any kind of assumptions really let the data do the talking there.

[A]

Yeah, I love it because you could audience test you can message test you and also that's the issue with a lot of tv, right? Is people assume that I, I'm going to make this big buy on one channel and if it doesn't work I'm screwed. And that's where people leave TV because they, they make a one. Maybe that wasn't their audience or that buy was not the right buy for them or the message didn't hit with that channel. And having something where you can test like basically like other channels that you could test right now, like a meta or Google, it's helpful to be able to test multiple creatives with multiple audiences and see what works and what doesn't work for that audience at scale. I want to go into, I mean talking about like proving value and talking about measurement. So from a measurement and accountability standpoint, what are the hardest things about proving TV value at your level of maturity and how have you and like Tatari work through those challenges?

[B]

Yeah, I would say it's really like it's been a big shift from kind of what we talked about is like the entry point and the why you get with Tatari and some of the agencies similar of wanting to make these one off tests like oh let's try a Lakers game, oh let's try a NBA playoff game. And while that's valuable and was a great way to get into it, I think it's really the shift to being more like looking at the system and more system thinking rather than just one off buys and campaign to campaign. I think it's really helping us understand TV's total impact and forecasting against that and measuring appropriately. It's not always going to be in the same session conversions as we see with some of our other channels. We need to be more following the assisted conversions, branded search, direct traffic, conveying all that internally so that everyone's aligned, that TV is a full funnel contributor and something that should be always on versus just another channel that we measure exactly the same as everything else. So I think it's like really like you know, seeing the full impact in the halo of what TV can provide and then you know, forecasting accordingly and having that expectation as we go into some of our like nmms and studies like that that we'll run.

[A]

I think that's the key. I think you just said the halo. I think a lot of people don't realize how TV impacts other channels. Also other retailers say like on Amazon or you're selling on different. You might see a spike on Amazon versus another place and you're not even intending to do that. But the halo effect of TV is making people think of your product and then go buy a multiple channel any. And if they think about your product and then see a Facebook ad and stuff like that, the TV could bump meta up direct. I mean everybody knows that it will bump Google branded search up, but people still will buy on Google more, which is funny, but I want you to go into Mauricio a little bit more on like the reporting and how Tatari could help with that.

[C]

Yeah, I mean let's definitely start there with the halo reporting. It's been kind of like this kind of lost crusade for a long time for marketers. We're like, hey, I know that TV is making this outsized impact on other channels, but I really can't prove it. And that's something that we actually now can back with data science and attribution at Atari. So we actually do provide a halo impact analysis for a number of brands. And what we pretty much do is we just look at all your channels, you know, your paid search, your paid social, Meta, Google, whatever it is you're running. We'll actually look at the difference if somebody saw that ad and a TV ad and see if there's actually a lift or not. So now not only do you know, hey, it's making an overall lift to all of my campaigns, but where is it making an outsized difference? And some brands will actually find that, hey, I didn't know that my competitors were bidding on my keywords. Maybe I need to kind of change something there or maybe I need to increase my meta retargeting budget or perhaps maybe I should kind of pull back at another channel because it's a bit redundant. So the halo impact analysis is massive for brands especially that are kind of a bit more developed or mature because it's really helps you uncover where that's happening the other way that we help with reporting. Especially for brands that are starting out. It's really about incrementality. A lot of, a lot of, a lot of brands will start on TV and they'll see a great platform roas and whoever they're running with. But many of those conversions were going to happen anyway. They would have happened perhaps already from Meta or Google. So you really need to isolate where that impact is coming from and then much larger brands. Right. You know, think of like brands that are selling across a Walmart and Amazon D2C and things like that. That's where MMMs can be quite useful because that kind of gives you that whole picture. The challenge with an MMM is that you've already spent three months and you've wasted that budget until you really, really understand what works. So I don't really think there's a one size fits all for brands. You really have to look at all three of those in conjunction. What's incremental, what's actually affecting other channels and then effectively, you know, when you have an mmm and where is that all kind of fitting in together overall? So that's the way we look at measurement. Atari, it's really kind of meeting the brand on where they are, where they are on that growth journey and figuring out what makes the biggest impact to their business.

[A]

Today I also want to go into, because I think all about proving value. And Lucas, I talked to Jory Evans about the social side of this, which is cool because you seem to work together about the placement for super bowl and stuff like that, and testing everything out, which is super cool. And I'm excited to hear like the TV side of, of of this. But like nothing is bigger than the super bowl when it comes to buying. And that's not a decision. You really just say, hey, I'm just gonna go buy a Super bowl ad. Because you're not like, you're not like a Pepsi level, a brand that just could waste budget like that. So what did that path actually look like and what, how did it, what made it feel digestible?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. It's not like we woke up one morning and decided we were buying, buying a Super bowl spot. It was more like we talked one afternoon and decided we were buying a Super bowl spot. We, we've been looking at super bowl every year that we've been with Atari. We've been breaking down all of our options on how we could get in. And it continues to change year over year on like not just the price tag, but the opportunities in. So we've been chatting about it a lot and I think this year it was really a great time for our business. And that was what really, you know, drove the excitement to look a little bit closer at it. But where we bought in wasn't that traditional in game spot that I think everyone assumes it would be. We actually bought a pre game spot that ran ran ended up running right after the field interviews and right before the national anthem. We still were included in a lot of the roundups with everyone that was buying those true in game spots because we treated it internally as though it was on that scale and it really was to us. We wanted to make sure we had the perfect creative that really met the moment and I think we delivered there. But yeah, we really had to make sure that we were ready for it and that we, we took that approach that, that fit for us in this moment rather than just kind of what everyone thinks super bowl is and should be. We'd done some overtime bids in the past and we felt we were ready to, to step up and actually have a moment that we knew would come our way. Tatari really helped educate us on those options and it really couldn't have been a better fit for us. And we really, I think it would have been difficult to access our placement without their support.

[A]

Demarizo, how does like having direct publisher relationship like Tatari has affect a brand's access to like a Super bowl opportunity versus what they could have gotten through a DSP or traditional agency?

[C]

Well, it completely changes the entire picture. I mean, for, for brands especially looking to get, you know, the best deal, the best efficiency, it's almost always going to be direct. I kind of always kid, right? You can't buy the super bowl programmatically, at least in the way you think you can just yet, or I'm not sure if it ever will be. So having those direct publisher relationships really helps alter that conversation. Also, not just for big tent poles, but just kind of basic. If you want to buy Hulu or Tubi or whatever it is, a lot of brands say, oh, I tested TV programmatically or through a DSP and it didn't work. And it didn't work mainly well. They were paying a $30 CPM for something you can get on Tatari for a $10 CPM completely radically changes that CAC formula if you just cut the media costs by nearly 2/3. So having those direct publisher relationships drives way more efficiency for all those involved. Publishers love it because they get way more margin. They don't got to pay SSP fees, DSP fees and all those other things. Brands love it because they don't have to pay all those middleman fees as well. So all that to say, right? Those direct relationships really, really change the game for performance marketers by lowering costs, giving you more efficiency. And another thing that shouldn't be overlooked, there's zero chance of fraud when you go direct. You're not buying in open exchanges or things like that.

[A]

Yeah, that would be so shitty. If you're going to go buy a Super bowl ad and it's a fraudulent ad, I would freak out as a marketer and you probably get fired as a, a marketer if that happens. So that's good. Last question. For brands that are on TV and not operating at manscapes level, what's the actual next step to get to where you are?

[B]

The key step for us was changing the way we looked at it and it's still evolving for us. So it's not like we've like cracked the code and we're, we do it perfectly now. But I think that it's one of those few channels, as I've said a few times now, that can really drive both brand perception and business outcomes at scale. And I think that like that's really what you need to digest and own as a marketer to take TV to the next level. You have to take it sophisticatedly too though. You can't just kind of throw a dart at the wall and hope it's working, but you only unlock it if you treat it with the same rigor that you do the channels that you're native to. So for us it was digital and we really had to treat TV like a top opportunity for us and a place that we really intended to go. We had to be very focused on what the goal was and we had to move away from sort of that more sporadic one off or campaign focused buying and try to get to that always on place. And I still think that we flex in and out throughout the year and have lows where we have lower spend and increase peak seasons for us. But it really does take just, you know, understanding how much it can deliver and being confident that it can reach that for you and then really following the data to make sure that it delivers against that for us. It was also I think making sure our creative fit this fit the platform. I don't think that you can always just run whatever's working on digital on tv. I think sometimes you should really take the time to build a TV intended creative that tells the story in the right way and continue to test some of those digital, more digital native ones, especially on CTV or through some of our more programmatic buys that we'll do through Tatari. Yeah, TV is a demand generator and powers all the other channels. Like we were saying about the Halo effect, don't just leave it as a siloed brand item, you can view it as both brand and performance.

[A]

Yeah, I think what you just said about treating it like digital channel, you wouldn't just turn off meta and then come back to it and then turn you. It's a, it's a You have to have that data to keep learning and growing that channel and learning what channels are working, even if it's at a lower spend level for that, a shorter period of time. And then those tent ball moments say, oh, maybe reality tv, this type of sports audience. And this is what we should double down on. If you don't have always on, you're gonna, it's a little bit of a guessing game or you're relying on what other brands are doing and that might not work for your audience. I want you to close this one out, Marisa. On what, how like follow up what Lucas just said.

[C]

Yeah, I mean we, we look in kind of three, three tranches as brand start on TV performance scale and then brand. So when brands really start out on tv, you should be obsessed and committed to performance. Can it deliver cac, can it deliver response? The other thing I really wish brands would kind of lean more into is leading with more of like an audience first approach. And I don't mean like audience first KPIs, but just look at the overall ecosystem. A lot of the times I'll hear brands that test it on their platforms, like, yeah, I was running on all these publishers, but I've never heard of them and they were my top performing ones. And I always kind of smirk and say, well, what kind of attribution or measurement were you using? A quick little fun fact here. 90% of all streaming TV ads happen only on 10 apps. So the likelihood is if you haven't heard of a streaming publisher and that likely is a top performer for you, it's probably something to do with your attribution. So what do I mean by that is really start thinking logically, okay, where's my brand actually showing up? Does it actually kind of make sense logically? What does the data also tell me? So that's kind of first and foremost treat it performance oriented. Really think about where your audience lives on TV and make sure these are obviously publishers and networks that you really trust or have heard of. And the last piece is don't underestimate the business wide impact of tv. So while I do want many brands that isolate the impact, you could also start noticing those effects across other channels too. Whether it's with a halo impact analysis or if you see your meta retargeting or Google retargeting skyrocket, you're going to be able to kind of sense, okay, something's happening here, something's a bit different. So that's pretty much it. Right? So to end there, keep it performance oriented kind of follow where your audience is and then don't underestimate the impact across your entire business.

[A]

I also think that, I mean talking about that halo of just channels, but I also think you have a halo over your brand and you actually look a little bigger by being on tv because when people think of a TV spot like Manscape, having an ad at the super bowl makes Manscape look 2030 x bigger because you're on the same stage with all these big brands where and if you want a sports game people think that TV is you're spending millions and millions and millions. So it gives you this halo of a brand that actually is serious and is making like people are using if they're willing to go on TV and spend there. So I would add that meta everybody has access to so this weird brands that you get on your feet all the time. So I think. But yeah, thank you both for like coming on. I think it's super cool that what you're doing at Manscape and also which Tatari is doing to help brands have access to things like this where there's so many opportunities when it comes to TV that people aren't thinking about that they should double down on and actually be serious to start testing now if they are. Because it's a channel that actually has both effects like you said brand and direct response effects. So thank you both for coming on.

[B]

Yeah, thank you Daniel. Really appreciate it.

[A]

Thanks so much for listening. Keep tuning in to hear more great insights from the coolest marketers from around the world. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe and follow the Marketing Millennials podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. And if you like what you hear, I would greatly appreciate you giving us a five star rating. It helps bring more marketers into our community.