The Marketing Millennials Ep. 367 Summary

Episode Title: How To Measure Brand with Preston Rutherford, Co-founder of Chubbies
Date: November 19, 2025
Host: Daniel Murray
Guest: Preston Rutherford

Episode Overview

This episode tackles the often elusive subject of brand marketing—what “building a brand” really means, how to measure it, and why brand shouldn't be siloed from performance marketing. Daniel Murray talks with Preston Rutherford, co-founder of Chubbies, to unpack actionable steps (and mindset shifts) for marketers who want brand-building that actually moves the needle. They dig into metrics, creative tactics, and how to escape the performance-only marketing trap—peppered with hard-earned lessons and real examples from Chubbies, Lululemon, and others.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Rethinking Brand vs. Performance Marketing

• Brand IS Performance: Preston opens by highlighting flawed thinking in separating “brand” and “performance.” All marketing is performance marketing, but much current measurement is incomplete.
  • Quote [02:09]: “At the end of the day, it’s all performance marketing. …it’s how you do it, how you measure it, how you think about it.” – Preston Rutherford
• Modelled Data Reality: Due to changes like iOS14, much reported performance data (especially in Meta ads) is modeled, not absolute truth.
  • Quote [02:27]: “85% of the data you get from Meta, for instance, is modeled…” – Preston Rutherford

Brand Metrics You Should Actually Track

• Brand Search as a Leading Indicator:
  • Instead of obsessing solely over sales, start tracking branded search volume (people typing your brand name into Google or social platforms) as a proxy for top-of-funnel brand strength.
  • Quote [03:47]: “It’s per dollar spent, how many searches can I drive for my brand? That’s just a representation of people thinking about me and taking some action.”
• Assign an Owner: Make brand search a key metric, assign someone to “own” it, and benchmark against competitors.

Kickstarting and Maintaining Brand Interest

• Start With Free, Fun, Organic Tactics:
  • Don’t default to paid. Revisit the unscalable, fun, organic tactics that built your brand in the early days—stunts, unique content, social media engagement.
  • Quote [06:57]: “Find a way to make organic social interesting to people… There’s no reason why brands can’t do more of that.”
• Paid Social for Engagement, Not Just Conversions:
  • Optimize paid ads for engagement (shares, follows) not just conversions—this drives cheaper reach and stores your brand in people’s memory better.
  • Quote [10:49]: “Drive engagements: optimize for shares, follows across all the ad platforms...I would happily pay for that.”

Building and Owning Communities

• Owned Audiences Beat Rented Audiences:
  • Platforms change; true ownership comes from email lists, Facebook groups, or loyalty programs.
  • Encourage building micro-communities and facilitating direct engagement.
  • Quote [12:19]: “Build owned audiences, right, is one of those things that just pays you over time…”

Escaping the Performance Trap and Short-termism

• Rising Ad Costs & Diminishing Returns:
  • Platforms are getting more expensive every year, squeezing performance-only approaches.
  • Quote [14:57]: “The cost to play the game... is going up double digits and compounding every year. That’s bonkers.”
• Contribution Margin over Revenue:
  • Stop making revenue the only north star; look at profit after costs and ad spend.
  • Quote [15:45]: “[Look] at the profit number or the contribution…just stop getting so obsessed with revenue as the mark of success.”
• Protect Brand Desirability:
  • Use desirability as a decision-making filter when considering discounts/promos.
  • Avoid over-discounting, which erodes perceived value and breeds “waiting for sales” behaviors.

Black Friday/Cyber Monday (BFCM) Strategies

• Discount Fatigue and Demand Pull Forward:
  • Brands are discounting earlier and more often, making BFCM less special. Consider gifts-with-purchase over straight discounts.
  • Quote [23:55]: “Discounts are already way up this year...so Black Friday/Cyber Monday...might feel less special to the consumer if it’s purely...discount driven.”
• Leverage Loyalty:
  • Use BFCM to beef up loyalty programs and early-access for loyalists, instead of blanket discounts.
  • Quote [27:05]: “Give it to your most loyal people and...get more people into that loyalty funnel...”

Examples of Brand-Led Success & Failure

• Chubbies Playbook:
  • Winning formula: relentless focus on community, viral social, and fun.
  • Quote [03:03]: “Chubbies coming off of eight straight years of revenue and profit growth...over about $90 million in revenue [with] a 26% EBITDA margin.”
• Lululemon’s Trap:
  • Over-rotation to promos eroded brand desirability; up-and-comers (Alo, Vuori) filled the fun/brand vacuum.
  • Quote [19:19]: “Just stopped doing things that got people to search for them...they stopped doing shit that was interesting to people.”
• Rhode by Hailey Bieber:
  • Two years of zero paid, pure organic/community focus, led to a huge acquisition and industry-best profit margins.
  • Quote [30:31]: “They didn’t spend anything on paid media for the first two years...focus[ed] on organic community building.”

The Importance of Narrative & Consistency

• Story and Brand Voice First:

  • Distill your positioning, audience, and mission—this clarity allows consistent messaging across touchpoints, enhancing effectiveness.
  • Quote [36:28]: “Figure out what your story is, your mission is, your brand voice...the messaging…which is the same in paid social, which is same as in regular social.”

• Polarization as a Strength:

  • Don’t be afraid to stand for something that alienates some in order to create rabid fans.
  • Quote [37:21]: “There needs to be a thing that is hateable. If you’re not hateable, you’re not lovable either.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “All marketing is performance marketing...It’s just how you measure it.” (Preston, [02:09])
• “If there’s a brand that’s 10 times bigger than you, they probably have 10 times more searches.” (Preston, [05:53])
• “Be famous, get famous. How do people get famous?” (Preston, [07:22])
• “We’re just in the desire game, you know? Our goal is just to be desired.” (Preston, [15:57])
• “Discounting is a scary path. The 20% you do this year, 20% next year is generally going to be less effective.” (Preston, [27:41])
• “If you’re not building that and emails...you have to become good at creating content to get forwards and stuff like that...” (Daniel, [34:14])
• “If you’re not hateable, you’re just...not lovable either.” (Preston, [37:21])
• “Profit is sexy. Contribution margin is sexy. Revenue is a great number, but if you’re not doing it in a way that is the bottom line...who cares?” (Daniel, [39:45])

Important Segments & Timestamps

• [02:09] — The necessity of a “brand as performance” mindset
• [03:47] — Secret: use branded search as your KPI
• [06:57] — How to get brand search without paid spend (organic, stunts, social)
• [10:49] — Optimize ad spend for engagement, not just conversion
• [12:19] — Building and owning your communities
• [14:57] — Why leaning on performance creative is getting more expensive—fast
• [15:45] — Switch focus from topline revenue to contribution margin and profit
• [23:55] — Black Friday sales: fight discount fatigue with creative alternatives
• [30:31] — Case study: Rhode’s ultra-profitable organic-first approach
• [36:28] — Why clarity in story, voice, and audience is make-or-break for brand
• [37:21] — Don’t fear being polarizing: it unlocks love and loyalty
• [38:59] — Marketing hill Preston would die on: 50% of marketing should be demand creation

Takeaways & Action Items

• Brand is measurable—starting with branded search and click volume.
• The best brands blend unscalable fun with paid amplification.
• Watch your metrics: profit and engagement are better north stars than pure revenue.
• Do things that make you memorable, even at the risk of alienating some.
• Build and own your audience across platforms and loyalty programs.
• Community and story drive legacy brands—ad spend alone can’t buy this.

Where to Find Preston Rutherford

• Twitter & LinkedIn: Preston Rutherford
• Company: MarathonDataCo.com (Mnemonic: "marathondotaco.com")

If you want a playbook to win with brand—without abandoning performance—this episode is packed with candid wisdom, tactical ideas, and sharp perspectives you can share at your next marketing meeting.