← The Marketing Millennials
The Marketing Millennials
How to Navigate Social Media with Nick Tran, President & CMO of First Round, ex-TikTok & FARFETCH | Ep. 403
00:51:39
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- [00:01]
A
Today's episode is brought to you by Customer IO. You have customer data, but turning it into personalized marketing at scale, that's the hard part. Customer IO connects the dots. Feed it your data. Start sending messages that actually feel personal. Learn more@customerio TMM welcome to the Marketing Millennials, the no BS marketing podcast. I'm Daniel Murray and join me for Unfilter through conversations with the brains behind marketing's coolest companies. The one request I tell our guests stories or it didn't happen. Get ready to turn the up. What's up? Welcome back to the Market Millennials podcast. I'm here with Nick Tran. Nick has a cool history and I'm going to let him talk a little bit about it, but he didn't want to put on his Siegelman stable hat that he has and at home. And we're also repping the same mic, so we're kind of like twinning today on the podcast for those people who are not seeing the video of this. So I'm excited to get talking. But Nick, welcome to the podcast.
- [01:13]
B
Thank you so much, Daniel. I'm excited to be here. And yes, I was contemplating running down and grabbing my seagull and stable hat, but I feel like I've repped it quite a bit recently. So since you're already wearing it, I'll just leave it to you to rep.
- [01:24]
A
I want to, like, set up this conversation because you have a very cool career path. I just want you to go a little bit into the career path so people get a sense because you've been really ahead the ahead in culture, ahead on social media, ahead in trends and law. Your roles reflect that. So could you go a little bit of, like, your background and then we'll go into the conversation?
- [01:46]
B
Yeah, I'll start with the whole reason I ended up going down the path I did. So my dream job is to go back to teach. If I can go back and teach marketing at an MBA program, that's going to be sort of the pinnacle of my career. And with that in mind, I've always thought about each destination as being a case study, which is why I try to go to different industries with every pit stop that I make along the career journey. And what started out in food and bed with Taco Bell kind of then went to apparel with Stance and then consumer electronics with Samsung and then media entertainment with Hulu and then Disney and then social platforms, entertainment platforms with TikTok, and then I had a brief stint at Farfetch'd, which is a E commerce and luxury Platform overall. So really had the opportunity to run the gamut in terms of industries. With the main through line being that every place I went to ended up being in some crazy crisis and needing to like dig in and work with a team to get through that is what really shaped my marketing career to date.
- [02:48]
A
Yeah, I mean, all these brands are, were like ahead of the curve, culturally relevant, like stance. I remember 10 years ago, everybody had Stan Stocks. Stan Stocks were everywhere. And then they went to Stan's Boxers and everybody had Stance Boxers. And it was just like that was like everywhere. And still it's culturally relevant with like Gen Z, which is cool to see. Yeah. But I want to, I want to talk about how you have seen, like media progress over the years. Like what has shifted in the last few years in like the media, social media landscape.
- [03:22]
B
I mean, we'll break that down into two components because the media landscape, I think has evolved and that sort of ushered in this new wave of social media which you call out. And even that's starting to evolve. So starting with the media landscape, it's been amazing to see how the barriers of entry for new brands to break through used to be the media buy. Right. So I remember a time when it was very difficult for startups like, well, now as it stands, to find a way to really cut through. When you had all the incumbent apparel brands outspend us, you know, 100 to 1 or 10 to 1 on all the different media channels. So like TV, radio, print, out of home, you name it, like they had it covered. And when you're a small brand, you had to find ways to, to challenge those brands in a way that you could actually afford. That became the biggest constraint. So at Stance, you know, we were able to find those little niches in social and also through partnerships and influencers, and ultimately carve a path for us to scale that business to not only, as you mentioned, do well in socks, but then break into boxer, boxer briefs and then eventually shirts. What we've seen now is as social media has evolved to provide this new mechanism or algorithm for content distribution, you no longer need to buy your way into people's feeds. It's actually better to find ways to improve your content and then eventually get into the feeds organically. So what used to be a barrier is no longer an issue. And it's become a little bit more of an even playing field for brands who are just starting to just dominate on the content scene, really drive the engagement and then boost their awareness, which is why we're seeing so many brands that, you know, weren't around three to five years ago now having billion dollar valuations. So that, that's definitely one thing that's changing. That I think is fascinating for, you know, the smaller brands that are starting to come up like the Siegelman of the world. How, how can they break through? It's going to be through content and not through just straight media buying on
- [05:25]
A
that note too, is like we're. Media buying is just getting harder because everybody knows targeting now there's going to be AI that could automatically do that. And the one thing that you can win on is straight creative. And creative is the way to win in creative is be good at organic first and know how it works in organic feed before it works in a paid feed. Because if it works in organic, it's going to probably work in pay. Yeah.
- [05:50]
B
But then to take that even further, people who are okay at organic are now learning the tips and the tricks and using AI to hack their way to optimize their content like the actual creative. So as that bar raises, all content that's being delivered will start to feel a little bit more of the same because people are using very similar and templated hooks. People are using very similar formats. You know, they're using the same influencers, they're using the same elements in the ingredients to make compelling content. Which makes me believe that in a, you know, near future, we're going to get to the point where you're going to want to leave those feeds and find new ways to engage with your favorite brands or your favorite creators or your favorite, you know, social media folks or whatever it might be.
- [06:40]
A
Let's actually dig a little bit deep into that. I know you have a phrase, the end of everything feed, but also what do you see if this starts to hit a peak of saturation of content that everybody knows how to win on those platforms. You could just type in Mr. Beast hooks and AI will give you 50,000 Mr. Beast hooks that you can use for your. So what does that look like in 5 to 10 years? What should marketers today be thinking about with their content to not only stay relevant in feeds right now, but also plan for like feeds in, in the future or like beyond the feed?
- [07:19]
B
Yeah, I mean, I can share that with a, an analogy to start with and then we can go back to the actual, you know, point that you made. But have you ever played around on Canva or do you use Canva at all?
- [07:31]
A
All the time. But I'm a meme guy, so I love just putting it in the meme yeah.
- [07:37]
B
Okay, so imagine the world pre Canva where the real barrier was like the visual aesthetic or the design, right. So like if, if someone came in with an incredibly well designed deck, you could almost get by with having the content or the substance itself be like okay or like passable. But if it was just like visually incredible, you know, like how many agencies one accounts just based on like the design of the deck. That's sort of how it used to be. Now with Canva, I would say everyone almost has an even playing field. So it's going back to the substance. Right. And not just like the visual aesthetic and the design of it all. It's. It's a very similar parallel to where I see content because as people are able to use tools to create to your point, like memes, or actually generate videos at scale that leverage all the right hooks and all the right lengths and all the right filters and all the right songs or whatever it is, you're going to see all of that, you know, kind of being like you're seeing a bunch of well designed, you know, presentation decks right now to the point where people will actually have to dig into the content and identify like what they actually want to watch and not just watch what the algos are pushing to them because it met all the criteria that's able to hack into their, you know, the way into their feed.
- [09:00]
A
Yeah, I mean that, that's a really good analogy. I also think about every like a lot of aspects of marketing, how you can get away with a stuffed blog post for like SEO to win on that. And now you actually have to write like a really good piece of content. That's right. Even be seen. It's just a lot of marketers are very good at hacking their way even with paid social. For a long time you can hack your way just by better targeting, like better lists. And your creative could have been average and you could win because you knew exactly where to put your creative in front of the right person to win. Now you can't do that anymore.
- [09:39]
B
Yeah, but that to me is a huge opportunity for creative because you know, as people optimize and continue to sort of like raise the floor, I think there's an opportunity for people to really create work that has substance, where the content is incredibly innovative or unique and it tells a perspective or a point of view that gets people excited again. So I'm almost happy or excited to see what happens next. I'm not looking at this as like a negative or like the industry is doomed. I'm more so thinking that this might unleash a new era of creativity and allow people to really get back into the substance rather than just, like, the esthetic of it all.
- [10:18]
A
I know you were at TikTok, like, pretty early stage of where it was scaling in the US and one thing that was, like, really noticeable, like, in the COVID time, is people really connected with the creators on the platform. But now we're in a phase where you could watch 30 videos and not remember one creator that was behind the video. So what are you. What is driving this, like, the connection, like, the loss of connection to creators and loss of the connection to the actual people behind, like, some videos?
- [10:54]
B
Yeah, I don't have, like a necessarily, like an exact answer. I'd say, like, I have my perspective, but not too different from what we were talking about earlier when TikTok was first scaling. Each creator, or TikTok, you know, influencer that started to really find success had that niche or that specific passion area that they were obsessed with, and they would just showcase that on the platform that was driven by this idea that it doesn't matter what you made. If the audience was there, which typically there was, the algorithm would be able to, like, take your content and put it in front of the right audiences and then see that success scale. Right. As far as, like, the. The views and everything. Right now I think we're getting to a point where there's a little bit less unique, you know, content being pushed out and it's less original, and it's more taking inspiration from another creator. And instead of even just doing, like a remix that's more in your voice, people are just literally taking that exact idea and then just putting it back out of the feeds. So you might see the same exact, you know, viral video done a hundred different ways from a hundred different people. And I think when you have that start to happen, it dilutes the impact that that individual creator used to have. And it's making you not really care to remember who that last creator you saw was, because you just seeing them as one of a sea of many who are doing the exact same trend. Like, for example, you know, how many different suspect challenge videos did you see? Right. Like, I've seen, like, hundreds. And now are they all fun? Sure. But can I specifically recall which creator either started that trend or which creator, you know, had the best version of that suspect challenge? Like, no, I have no idea, because it was just like another version that I maybe saw for that brief moment in time and then immediately went on and saw another one which Then made me forget about, you know, the previous one. So I think as you see, creators just start to mimic and produce content that drives engagement but doesn't really have as much originality. You're going to start to like lose interest in the creator themselves. Which is also why I think we're going to hit that peak social moment and people are going to want to find the real creators that they're, you know, obsessed with or interested in versus what the feed is just pushing in front of them because it's like a similar Templar style that they've seen before.
- [13:18]
A
But on the flip side too, I think this has helped brands and artists because they're pushing out the same audio or like they, they're sharing like the same product. So at the flip side, that if someone's doing like a viral like recipe trend, all those things are going to go. The brand is actually in the front fold the front of that, not the creators because, like, nobody's going to remember that, like you said that first person, but they're going to go out to Trader Joe's or Target and go buy all those things. Same with these songs where like every week there's like a new song that's going viral, like Benson Boom popping up. Just because of TikTok is because creators are repeating each song and doing trends and it's just making these creators, I mean, people outside the feed be more famous than inside the feed.
- [14:11]
B
But that's where I actually find it really interesting because when I was at TikTok, one of the things that we wanted to try to do was drive TikTok creator to true a list celebrity status. Like that was sort of the goal because we wanted, we wanted to be able to take, you know, the limits of where we saw YouTube influencers and really try to like, you know, leapfrog that and allow our creators to break through in culture and actually drive culture. What you use as the example with Benson Boone I think is interesting because there's a difference between stars that are amplified through social and maybe like pick up their audience more quickly. But my argument would have been that like Benson Boone was still going to be Benson Boone and he was still going to be a star irregardless of the platform. The platform might have just helped an audience find him a little bit more efficiently or quickly. That's very different than a social media star that maybe wasn't going to be a Benson Boone who attracted a significant following because they were able to like get on the platform earlier or hack into the way to drive engagement and, you know, create that content. My hunch is that as those people or folks in general are becoming less differentiated because so many others can just copy that exact same concept or idea and there's nothing that's going to be like substantively different between them. You're going to start to see the separation between a normal influencer and the quote unquote, like Benson Boons of the world, who are so incredibly talented that it almost doesn't matter what environment you put them in, they're going to stand out. So, so we'll see a little bit more of that. Now imagine a world where, you know, a, a platform decides to create a version of TikTok, let's say that not only highlighted new and emerging artists, but also allowed you to transact and buy tickets to their show or their album and their merch and be able to experience something within that platform. I think the idea of community, commerce and content all in one place that's within a specific category I think will be a lot more compelling in the near future than like a, you know, all encompassing fee that just feeds you a bunch of stuff that you may not be as interested in.
- [16:31]
A
Yeah, I mean, Spotify kind of tried it a little bit, but nobody really knows that. You could see like events near you and go look at their events or buy their merch on there and you just listen to the song. But it's kind of funny that they have that. I want to also go. So I'm just thinking from like a marketer's point of view now. So like if the feeds are getting very diluted, everybody's doing trends. What is like the next stage? What should marketers be thinking about? Like if they, should they be on social, should they think about beyond social? Like, what are the, what would you recommend to like a marketer running a marketing. A small company that's trying to compete? They're, they're getting. So what, what, what do you recommend to them?
- [17:16]
B
Yeah, I still think we're, you know, at least a couple years out from this environment that I was sort of alluding to. You know, today you still want to be where all the people are and the dominant platforms, you know, with it, with IG and with Tick Tock are still going to be places that marketers should and you know, will continue to play in. I think they're going to want to figure out how to optimize their content. I get this idea of like, okay, there's a trend, so we're going to jump on a trend so that we can get some engagement. If you are a brand that can't take the trend and remix it to like add your brand's perspective on that and make it make sense for the, for the audience to say like this is the value that the brand is bringing to this trend or this is why the, the brand is providing this perspective. Then it's sort of like almost a vanity play where you might get a, you know, a million views but it might not actually amount to anything. I think if brands can figure out how to add value to the trend or remix it so that it makes sense coming from them in that manner and then the audience is actually like wanting to see it, then it becomes a much more interesting opportunity for them. But you know, with that said, you know, where should marketers play? I feel like there's going to be this huge push towards experiential and more like in real life opportunities to interact and engage with audiences. I think there's going to be, you know, hopefully some innovation because like as you know, people start to use AI tools and become more efficient, they should be spending their time thinking of like how to be you know, a level up from where the competitive set is. So like I think there's going to be a lot of innovation but a lot of stuff that'll take you outside of screens and back into the real world in order to engage in a more like meaningful way. Like the number of brands that I've seen do these pop up activations that just crush and also provide social content. I think is like an easy evolution of what we see social now.
- [19:21]
A
Yeah, because I mean as people are more and more touched with their phones, they're going to be more and more craving in, in real world connection in real world stuff. I also see like a lot of brands going into more like developing niche like closed algorithm communities where they can like take people off algorithms into their own community that has a feed to their own type of feed but also has an in real life component where they, you can like meet up like run clubs and stuff like that where it's like you're taking them off, you have a social commute component but then they have that in real life group chat that everybody loves is interest based. They come together.
- [20:07]
B
I think we'll see a lot of that because activities that don't require social but that can build up a community through social will eventually, you know, be more robust off platforms and outside of the screens. I think it'll be really nuanced to see how much those tactics get replicated because like Once you see a few brands gain success, it's pretty fair to say that a lot of bigger brands then jump in but then it becomes not as cool. And so then the, you know, more nimble smaller brands then iterate and they find the next thing and then, you know, you find the larger brands then start to chase the new thing. So it's a, it's an endless cycle. I think if brands can just lean into what their core community know finds a value, they'll likely find a path to success.
- [20:59]
A
I also think what's working real well too and I would like to get your perspective. This is like the creators and brands who use social like serialized way where you have like the stod guy who has like, yeah, his bit and like because you, you want to go back to the bit instead of going back to the trend. Like you want to go back to like a show. And I see good brands doing that type of thing. So what are your thoughts on like people like now producing like small TV show like content instead of that?
- [21:34]
B
Yeah, I love that. I think that's where brands are providing a unique, you know, way into content. And whether it's Gestat Guy who is such an incredible creator because, you know, he, he's taken one, I guess, character and then developed a whole second character because of the success of the first character and then created a brand out of the first character. But he also has an opportunity to expand that portfolio to hit a different audience with the second character. So, you know, you're going to see a lot of folks that are able to build up audiences because their content is just so entertaining and engaging and fun. And I, you know, to your point, I don't see that being a type of, you know, content or the type of creator that's just jumping on a trend, they're literally creating something original and something unique and something that's only delivered, you know, by them. Which is where I see brands, you know, should be taking lessons from and developing their version of that because you know, it all started with soap brands creating you know, 20 minute soap operas or whatever the time frame was back in the day. And we're now getting back into the era where I think brands can dive in and create their own branded content in a way that's actually entertaining and engaging or inspiring and surface that on platforms that don't require a fee to be distributed on. So the fact that like the cost to distribute stuff on TikTok or YouTube or Instagram is free and you can do it at scale because the content is being fed through the algos to the people that want to see it. I don't see why brands, you know, would rather spend money to interrupt you while you're watching something that you want to watch versus spending that money and investing it into making their own thing that actually you would want to watch. Because that's sort of the best, you know, relationship and engagement that you could have with a brand. So my hope is that more marketers take cues from the creators that are really developing unique and original content instead of just chasing the trends or doing that like, you know, TikTok challenge or whatever it might be just really thinking like, how can we bring unique and original content to life in a short form format that allows people to not only feel more inspired by the brand, but also understand the value that the brand brings to them.
- [23:52]
A
Here's a question for you, because I know you said at the beginning of the podcast that you have been on, you've been. Every brand that you were with were kind of in a hole. And you kind of. We, like, you had to dug them out of a hole or some sort of problem they were facing. So if you went to a new brand right now, you were like the cmo, like, what are some like. And they were in a hole. What are like the first. What about your 1, 2, 3 steps that you would start with to like, think about getting them out of that A whole. I'm. Because you've been five different industries, so you've done it.
- [24:27]
B
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Actually, I love that question. I think anyone's asked me that before. I'm thinking about that, you know, all the time. And I'm taking on a new challenge that is going to force me to do exactly what you just said. And for me, it starts with really understanding what the brand proposition is like, what the value is that this brand can bring to its. Its, you know, core audience. It doesn't be like massive like that core audience. And I used to have a mentor slash teacher. It was someone that used to run Insights at Taco Bell who then became a professor at UC Irvine. And the way that he broke down the insights were. Was very clean to me. So it was like either a human insight, brand insight, product insight, or an occasional insight. Those are sort of like the four ways that marketers could think about, you know, how their brand slash, you know, product or service brings value. If we can distill what that offering is from a brand and then identify that way in. What I. What I actually find is that most companies or brands don't know what their actual mission is, what their target audience is, what the insight is that they're leveraging to reach these folks, and how their brand can make a difference and bring value to those consumers. They sort of either like, hit one of those things and found success, and they just double or triple down on that without looking at the overall ecosystem. So typically, what I like to do when I come into a brand is do a quick audit, understand what are the elements within that, like, brand operating system or that, like, brand DNA, and then essentially build that, map that out. Once I have that, I sort of use that as my foundation to then understand, okay, what are the challenges that the brand has been facing? And can my new, you know, brand guide help me tackle that problem? If so, then great. You just kind of figure out how to execute. If the answer is no, the problem lies somewhere else, then it's really just about dissecting what that problem is. And to be honest, it's normally fairly easy to identify what the actual brand issue is and then identify ways to overcome it. You know, some of the problems that I faced in the past are very obvious. Like when I was at Samsung, one of my first launches was the Samsung Galaxy Note 7, which were the phones that were catching on fire. It's not hard to figure out, like, what the problem was there, right? Phones were catching on fire. So, like, we could just figure out, like, beyond the brand, you know, operating system approach that we needed to build out and do. It starts with just rebuilding trust and then building love for the overall brand. But you have to, like, build trust before you could do anything because the phones were catching on fire. So that. That, to me, is, like, very easy. Most problems aren't that easy to dissect, but they're not actually that hard either. So once you uncover what that real reason is, that consumers are either on the fence of buying your brand or are buying a competitor, I think it's, you know, then just down to what's the most, you know, daring, innovative, and bold way to get in front of consumers to get them to, like, rethink and then go towards your brand or service?
- [27:36]
A
I love that answer because I think it applies to all aspects of life. Like, usually when things are struggling, like I used to play college football, like, usually when you're struggling in college football, it's because, like, something in your fundamentals have broken down and you have to fix. Go back. And even, like, the best tennis players, you see them, like, something or the best athletes, like, it's probably just like, One like, their footwork is just, like, gone off or like, they're not. Like something's happened in their swing or something. And it's like they just need to fix that one fundamental to change the game. And it's like that one little thing. But they have to also have, like, new eyes sometime to come in and see that. Because you don't really know that your footwork's off. Cause you've been doing that bad activity for so long that it just gets part of your DNA. And you need someone to look and say, like, hey, this is part of my DNA, that it's wrong.
- [28:32]
B
Yeah, I mean, I love that analogy. I think so many analogies can be broken down into sort of those, like, human truths. Whether it's, you know, equating a brand to a body, like a person, or equating the relationships that you have in life with the relationships that this brand wants to have with its. With its, you know, core fans or core customers. Those are all the things that I think make this, you know, job in this industry so fun. But to your point, like, when I. When I come into a brand and I find out what the problem is, it could be as glaring as, like, oh, you know, their stroke is off because, you know, footwork or whatever it is, or, like, their swing, you know, whatever the analogy is. But then you fix that and you go, like, actually, it's still not working. What else is there? And then you start to uncover some of, like, the more nuanced issues. And that's the same thing as a brand. You might think, like, oh, it's because the phones are on fire. But then you're like, actually, it's beyond that. It's because the brand was so focused on product marketing that when the products failed, the brand failed. So what we need to do, in addition to building trust, is to also bring a little bit more love towards the brand itself so that people give it a pass when times are tough, but they also celebrate an amp flight when things are going well. So all the, you know, superficial symptoms might actually be hiding some of the, like, underlying chronic issues. Which is where I find it really fun and fascinating to try, like, dig in, figure out what those chronic issues are in addition to those, like, superficial issues, and then just, like, help rebuild brands in that manner.
- [30:05]
A
I want to also ask you a little bit because a lot of marketers go in and say, like, are very, like, have a tactical approach or, like, they have, like, a playbook that they have run, meaning, like a channel playbook. Like, I know that if we run Facebook ads and we run. Yeah, like, they know, like their playbook, it's going to, they think it's going to work, but it's. Every brand is a different, like, analogies we're making. Every brand's a different human, a different, like, athlete. There's different problems. But I want to go into, like, for brands that. Because you. I, I could tell you really into, like, building brand. And, and a lot of people don't. A lot of brands, like, they, they strive to build brand, but they do these other actions that don't prove that they're striving to do brand. So what, what would you tell those people who are like, very tactical focus to step out and also do these, these actions to build brand love? Like, what does that look like?
- [31:01]
B
So take the analogy of starting a relationship, right? Let's say I get, you know, someone that I'm trying to impress flowers, and I, you know, take them to dinner and I pay for dinner, and I, I just check the box on all the things that I'm supposed to do. That's sometimes how I feel. How brands, when they think about, like, okay, we have to spend on meta, we have to spend on Google, and we have to do xyz, they're just kind of going through the motions. But I think the real art of it all, whether it's in a relationship or whether it's in building a brand, it's in the execution of how you do that and the feelings that the other side has when you do it right. So it doesn't matter if I get flowers or I don't get flowers. It depends on how the person feels on the other side. And if you do it in almost like a robotic, soulless manner that's easily felt on the other side. So it's less about, like, the channel tactics and the approach, but it's really about understanding who the brand is as a person and what are those triggers that will make people more interested in the brand. Just like you're done with the person. You know, if we were to jump on this podcast and you were to ask me questions and I just gave you some simple answers that. Check the boxes on what you're asking me. But if we didn't, like, actually get to go in and dig into the. The heart of it all, it wouldn't be nearly as fun. And I feel like brands who are run by people who don't understand that nuance, they do the right things and you can't pinpoint what's not working. But it just doesn't feel right. And I think that whole it doesn't feel right speaks volumes because if you can see that, then like the audience is very, very clear to see that and then it doesn't work.
- [32:40]
A
You're sitting on a gold mine of customer data and it's doing nothing for you. That's not a data problem, that's a tools problem. Customer IO connects your data to every channel you already use. Sms, email, push in app, then it uses AI to build workflows that used to take weeks. Every message feels like it's written for that customer, not blasted at them. 8,000 plus brands already made the switch. Learn more at Customer IO TMN I actually, I love that analogy because taking a step back, a lot of people always come to me because like they want to buy something for their like, wife or their like significant other. And I'm pretty good at like get like gift giving and like, like those type of things. And they, they always come to me and say like, what should I buy flowers or should I buy this or should I buy that? And I always like, like take a step back and be like, are you like listening or watching what you're like your wife is like, like when you're shooting the store, she's like, I really love this, this thing. Or like this flower is actually. It's the same with a brand. Like if you like listening to sure. And watching your consumer what they're doing, you could figure out like how to get in, in front of them in a way that's like authentic and makes them feel like if you're gonna buy flowers, like one of my friends just bought flowers and they, why their, their girlfriend was like allergic to it. Like roses or something. Like that's a perfect example. Like you like, you could do the playbook of buying flowers and it might work 5 out of like 6 out of 10 times. But then there's that one who's allergic or flowers or one doesn't care about gifts, they just want you to give them compliments the whole time. And then it's just like it comes down to listening and just like watching and communicating instead of just like doing a playbook at people.
- [34:39]
B
Yeah, but there's also a really interesting nuance to what you just said because I don't think most people know what they want. You know, it's like the, the whole thing where if you ask somebody like, well, what is it you actually want? There's no way they're going to be able to tell you. And the best case study that I've seen is I'll ask you to go, what do you think the most popular, what's your favorite vacuum cleaner?
- [35:01]
A
The only one that comes to mind is like Dyson, because everybody has a Dyson, perfect Dyson.
- [35:08]
B
When they were doing their consumer research and they asked people if they wanted to see the dust, I guess picked up in a bag like environment, so you can't see anything, or a bagless environment where you, where you see anything. It's all transparent. I think it was like 90 something percent of the respondents said they don't want to see the dust at all. They literally just don't want to see it because that's what they're trying to like get rid of and avoid. But like how much, you know, money has Dyson made? Because they have that transparent, you know, vacuum cleaner where when you suck up that dust you see exactly where it goes and it's like spinning in that little like vacuum thing. Because like what people didn't realize is that feeling they get when they suck up all that stuff and they see it go in the machine and not in their house. It's actually like a somewhat like cathartic moment for them. Right. And there's no way research would have been able to tell them that because nobody in their right mind would have been able to say, I would rather see where my dust is getting sucked up than not see it. So the ingenuity that that brand had to completely like create a whole product around something that was a human insight that nobody could have told them to do, I think is really where the beauty and the magic of, you know, marketing and product design all kind of come together.
- [36:22]
A
Yeah, And Rory, actually, Rory Sutherland, he's if you know him, he's like a famous like psychologist. He was talking about Dyson to me and he was saying that like Dyson's like the one vacuum cleaner that like you just leave out because it's like a status symbol that you have.
- [36:37]
B
Absolutely.
- [36:38]
A
So but he was saying like, like if you ask people like, would you leave out like, like building a luxury like vacuum cleaner that you leave out? But they probably would have been like, no way. I would not buy a thousand dollar vacuum cleaner that I would leave out for my guests to see that, oh, I have the newest Dyson. Like yeah, but it's like also you're playing with the emotions of like people who, like some people. One of the key human instincts is keeping up with the Joneses. And for sure one and a vacuum cleaner in some communities is keeping up with the Joneses, like, the best vacuum cleaner in my house, it's going to
- [37:15]
B
be that across everything, there's no category that doesn't have the opportunity to do what you just said. Like, whether it's pots and pans, coffee machines, cars, watches, vacuum cleaners, like, I think people have a predisposition to want to, like, showcase their status and put their status on sleeves, if you will. And it's not a surprise to me that, you know, that era of quiet luxury is probably going to fade soon and get back into a little bit more of, like, a maximalist approach where people want to, like, highlight the brands that they love and showcase them a little bit more, you know, aggressively. Because I do think at the end of the day, people like to not only do it for, like, the status of it all, but, like, they want to show what tribe they're a part of. And it's really tough to do that when you have nothing to show. So I. I still believe that there's going to be an era of, like, you know, people repping all the brands in their lives, whether it's like a water brand or whether it's, you name it, you know, and putting it in the forefront of, you know, their friends and family.
- [38:16]
A
I think you're right because you. You see, the perfect example that's, like, probably stayed throughout this whole time of quiet luxury to luxury is like, sports teams. Like, people wear jerseys because they want to, like, show that they're a fan of this. And then it also builds a community of other people who are also fans of that. It's the same with, like, moving to these, like, niche communities. Like, I'm wearing Siegel and stable. You we connected because you also. And your investor in it. And now it's like, oh, like, we have, like, a connection now because I'm wearing a brand that you like, you know, as well. That's what people. People are now, like, striving. Like, I'm nervous to get in the real world, and the best way to talk to people in the real world is to show what community I'm a part of, to attract that community to me instead of, like, having to, like, be like, there's some people who are really good at doing that, but, like, the age of people being on social the whole time, a lot of people are nervous to get out, and they feel lonely and they have less friends, totally. So they want to. They want to show off by the stuff that they wear.
- [39:23]
B
And that's only going to become more important for the people who grew up behind screens or on social media or through Covid. Because to your point, the easiest way to human connection is through shared passions and the easiest way to showcase what you're passionate about is to put it on your body. So I think that's going to become more interesting as we start to see this generation that grew up through Covid and grew up behind screens on social. As they get out in the real world, we'll probably start to see them, you know, try to use ways to identify what tribe they're in a little bit more obviously than, you know, in this most recent trend that we've seen.
- [40:03]
A
I have two more questions for you. Is like, yeah, what is like one thing that you think marketers should double down on right now?
- [40:13]
B
If I were to double down on something, it's going to be this is a cop out. It's not going to be like just one thing. If I were to build a new marketing engine, let's say it would probably revolve around organic social content events and experiential PR and then influencers. And the reason why I picked those four is because they all can work together to create this flywheel. So if I can create an amazing event and experiential environment for people, the content right there is just like content gold. And then if we can then use PR to then amplify all that, then we sort of have the right placements in the earned media, which I think is really important because in the near future when people are searching on various LLMs like perplexity or chatgpt for things, I can't currently buy my way into the top of that feed. Right. So the only way that those companies are indexing what's relevant is through earned media right now and trusted sources. So if I can then populate the PR machine, I will likely get higher placements, you know, organically through that. And then if I have the influencers that sort of act as like the, you know, catalyst for all this. So they're in the social content, they're at the experiences or they're like part of the PR headline? I think those four working together is where I would double down and you know, push my efforts into building this like marketing engine.
- [41:37]
A
I don't think it's a cop out answer because I think if you look at 95% of the brands out there, their strategy is Connect TV ads, paid media, like, I mean, paid search, and then they leave a little bit of budget at the end for like, I'll do organic social, I'll do some influencer I'll do some, I mean pr. I mean some it's probably bad, like a bad PR strategy. Like they're launch like it's like I launch my like new feature PR versus like I'm doing something really cool and really innovative. That is a very good story which is gets picked like the, like how the Met Gala was everywhere. And it's always everywhere because it's so. There's so many cool things going on and they're really good at PR to get it out there. So. Yeah, and the last, the last question I have for you and I ask everybody in this podcast, but what is a marketing hill you would die on?
- [42:40]
B
I think that brands eventually come and go. I think that the way of the world is that each generation has a set of brands that they love. And I think that that loyalty which used to be passed down generation is no longer automatic. And so I feel I would, I would like die on this hill and say that the brands that we all know today will unlikely be the brands that our kids will love tomorrow. And if we don't find ways to continuously engage each generation independent of our success with previous generations, we will have brands that just fade into obscurity and new brands that just pop out of nowhere and just like capture the audience or the generation's attention and just dominate. Because like I don't think products, it's so rare that a product is truly like innovative and it comes into our lives. Like the smartphone or like, you know, like the iPhone that is an actual like radically new product. But like for the most part water brands or toilet paper brands or furniture or cars, like it's all the same stuff. But each generation will gravitate towards a, you know, brand that's representative of them. And unless the current incumbents find ways to reach those new generations again and again and again, they will be replaced by, you know, future brands that don't even exist today.
- [44:11]
A
I love that hill, Diana, because you can even see it now with you. We're talking about brands that you think like toilet paper and that you think would have lasted forever. But now there's like this huge non toxic trend and like people are going to and all like millennials and are like trying to be non toxic for like the next generation and themselves and get rid of. And now like they're gravitating to brands that aren't the classic like Charmin and like Clorox and all those things because they want to, they have a new way of life now.
- [44:45]
B
And I used to remember, you know, the Crazy stats were like, most people choose their bank based on what their parents bank was, and then most people back then would choose their bank based on which bank was closest to their house. So you just need to open up a bunch of branches to basically win multiple generations. I don't think that's the case anymore. Right. Like, people are banking with brand new, you know, banks that don't even have locations. So in this world, unless you're figuring out what is the thing that brings value to each, you know, customer segment or generation or whatever you want to call it, whatever group you're going for, you can't sustain, you know, the. The level of success that you used to just by relying on the fact that, like, you know, this one whole generation loves it, so they're going to pass it down to the next generation. I think that's. That era is gone. So I'm really fascinated to see which new brands emerge and help displace, you know, the current, you know, incumbents. And then, you know, that, to me, is where a lot of the innovation lies, which I think is all driven by brand. It's not gonna be new products that come to life that, like, help me, you know, be more hydrated or, like, have better hygiene. It's just going to be, like, the brands that are really resonating with people.
- [45:58]
A
I love that. I mean, I mean, then that proves your point of going, like, we. I asked you the question earlier of, like, why, like, you should focus more on brand and not just, like, when. Because double down on so paid social. Because you'll be a brand that lasts five to 10 years like that, but not a brand that lasts 25, 30, 40, 50. If you're just going to rely on paying your way to play, there's no way.
- [46:26]
B
Yeah, that error is definitely done. And I think it's gonna, you know, require a new marketing toolkit to win. And, like, just to the point that we've been making this whole time about, you know, the hats that we're currently wearing, there's no real functional difference between the Siegelman stable hat and any other hat that we've had before. But you chose this brand for reasons, because it resonated with you specifically, or the people that you know in your circle are wearing it, or your wife saw it somewhere and then she got it for you, like, whatever the reason is, you're now choosing to, like, represent this. And as soon as we make the connection where it's like, oh, my gosh, you're wearing that brand, we meet, we have this bond that's just going to make you want to wear that more until it gets to the point where everyone's wearing it and it's no longer giving you that feeling or that emotion that you have now. And then you switch to the next thing which then creates this whole cycle all over again. So that's why I think brands come and go and unless you can figure out how to truly, you know, meet each generation where they want to play, you're going to be susceptible to being that brand that fades.
- [47:25]
A
I like that. I, I do think that the one category that's really hard to, I mean, a little bit hard, but like the brands that are like just competing on straight, like the quiet luxury brands that are just like competing with like straight product. It's like some people just like some people like, I don't know how that like they've been going for years just competing just on like no label and it's. That fascinates me so hard.
- [47:51]
B
But like which brand?
- [47:53]
A
Like, like I think it's just with certain like income levels, like, like Laura Piano, like, like for example has like competed for. I mean the star guy brought him, brought them like even more. But like you wear like a Laura Piano shirt and only if you like know, you know, kind of brain. But I do think those probably going to just be displaced at all. So like it's crazy that this world is just a continuous cycle of just, it's evolution. It's like survival of the fittest at the end of the day.
- [48:22]
B
But I would almost argue that the folks that wear Loro Piana consistently are at the point where they don't even care if people know, you know.
- [48:32]
A
Yeah, they don't, they don't care at all.
- [48:34]
B
They could, they could not care less. But the people that actually care about people recognizing what they're wearing, they're not necessarily wearing Laurel. They're probably. Or if they are wearing Lauro, it's something that you can tell is Lauro. Right. They might be more so into the brands that are subtle but still show exactly what it is. So you can like have value attached to it.
- [48:54]
A
That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. The people who are wearing Laura are probably the ones the people are wearing like the. That's a whole different like conversation to have of like totally like what people like just wear things just because the products exceptional. They don't care about like that's a whole different mindset and they probably competing at a way higher like level of something else. But someone's always competing on something like trying to show.
- [49:22]
B
For sure.
- [49:22]
A
Thanks. So for sure. Well, lastly, where could people find what you're doing and where could people find you?
- [49:30]
B
I mean, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I don't really post much on any other social platforms, but LinkedIn is probably the easiest way to to hit me. I am moving from London back to the US End of summer. So I'll be, you know, back home after this like amazing three year adventure that we've had in London. So I'll be, you know, back stateside and then I feel like once I start my new role, yeah. People will be able to find out where that is and then eventually reach me there. Cool.
- [50:07]
A
Well, thank you so much for coming on and I hope one day I see you like teaching a marketing class at Stanford or some cool school or like University of Miami right by where I am right now, so.
- [50:22]
B
Oh cool. Yeah, I love that.
- [50:24]
A
Thank you so much for joining.
- [50:25]
B
Thanks Daniel.
- [50:29]
A
Thanks so much for listening. Keep tuning in to hear more great insights from the coolest marketers from around the world. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe and follow the Marketing Millennials podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. And if you like what you hear, I would greatly appreciate you giving us a five star rating. It helps bring more marketers into our community. It.