The Marketing Millennials | Ep. 369

Product vs. Performance: How Modern Brands Really Scale
Guests: Ari Murray (Chief Digital Officer, Salt & Stone) and Stefani O'Sullivan (Head of Growth, Staud)
Host: Daniel Murray
Date: November 26, 2025
Context: Recorded for Markland Festival 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the core question facing modern brands: Should growth be driven primarily by product or by performance marketing? Ari Murray and Stefani O'Sullivan—two high-impact marketers with backgrounds at Staud, Savage X Fenty, Mod, and more—walk through their philosophies, hard-won lessons, and tactical frameworks for building scalable growth organizations. They tackle everything from the trade-offs between product-led and marketing-led brands, to the best ways to structure growth teams and evaluate new channels, to the first move they’d make if launching a new brand right now.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Product-Led vs. Marketing-Led Growth Philosophies

[03:26 – 05:39]

• Dynamic Differences between Brands:

  • At Staud: Growth is fundamentally product-led; the product is the “hero.” Demand is built around intentional product stories, exclusives, and collaborations—with marketing amplifying these.
    • “Our relentless focus was all built around the product. So growth became about building demand around very intentional product stories and driving urgency around or through exclusive products, newness, collabs…” —Stefani [03:51]
  • At Savage X Fenty: Growth was marketing-led, with performance marketing as the primary lever, relying on funnel velocity, conversion rate optimization, and real-time data.
  • Philosophy: Ideally, modern, scalable businesses blend both models—leveraging strong product differentiation with a profitable growth flywheel.

• Scalability and Risk:

  • Product-led brands build deeper equity, loyalty, and organic demand, but need to excel in feedback loops, manufacturing, and experimentation.
  • Marketing-led brands can scale faster, but are vulnerable to churn, higher CAC, and dependency on relentless media optimizations.
    • “A scalable, healthy, profitable business and model blends both. It lets product guide your focus and your narrative… while using performance and media and digital marketing to help amplify and sell at scale.” —Stefani [08:28]

2. The Celebrity Factor: Does a Famous Founder Shift the Model?

[05:39 – 06:39]

• Having a celebrity doesn’t make a brand inherently marketing-led. Brands like RHODE (Hailey Bieber) can be both celebrity- and product-led.
  • “You could be a celebrity brand and still be product-driven.” —Stefani [05:56]
• What matters most: company values, product/customer orientation, and the brand’s foundational “why.”

3. Trade-Offs & Challenges of Each Model

[07:24 – 10:09]

• Product-led trade-offs: Must be ready to experiment, stomach failures, and invest in the product customer truly wants—not what you think they want.
  • “In a part of the company like there's a certain trust and know-how, and you have to be able to like stomach it, which is not easy.” —Ari [09:14]
• Marketing-led risks: Overdependence on paid media makes you vulnerable if product/brand loyalty is weak.
• Both Models: Demand robust inventory management, accurate forecasting, and the ability to quickly learn and adapt.

4. Building & Structuring Growth Teams

[11:34 – 16:32]

• A culture that focuses relentlessly on product—and by extension, the customer—creates richer storytelling, more cohesion, less siloing, and higher accountability.

  • “If the baseline agreement… is that we love our product, and then inherently… you love the customer that loves your product, how can you go wrong?” —Stefani [11:40]

• Teams should avoid strict silos; instead, growth, product, and marketing must operate as a tightly integrated engine.

• Tactical Involvement for Growth Teams:

  • Growth needs a seat at the table for all big bets: product expansions, new channels, launches.
  • Should avoid overstepping into design, but act as “thought partners” on fit and go-to-market.
  • Have unique insight into customer and market dynamics through paid/social data.
  • “Your growth team… will probably have a really great insight into the fluctuations in customer spending and customer engagement… I’m really excited about companies… that value growth leadership in a holistic, strategic arm.” —Stefani [15:09]

5. Growth Mindset: Everyone Owns the Numbers

[16:32 – 18:31]

• At any level, growth specialists should see themselves as business owners, not just executors of tasks.
  • “You can stay in your lane and be an expert and still have the mindset of a business owner.” —Stefani [18:22]
• Media buyers are “growth specialists”—they’re not just traffickers, but should challenge anything that won’t drive results.

6. Evaluating New Channels: CTV, Retail Media, Out-of-Home

[18:35 – 23:21]

• Key Metrics & Philosophy:
  • Incrementality, brand lift, brand search, organic/direct traffic, and awareness studies—if budgets allow.
• Memorable Example: Avocado Mattress
  • Launched exclusively with out-of-home and upper funnel spend, focusing on being physically adjacent to other trusted brands rather than living/dying by performance metrics.
    • “He only invested in out of home and upper funnel media. He did not do any performance marketing at all whatsoever…” —Stefani [19:22]
  • This approach “builds a different kind of trust,” especially for high-ticket purchases.
• Look for retail signals—where communities are engaged but the brand isn’t yet physically present.

7. Messaging Consistency + Flexibility

[23:21 – 25:43]

• Consistency in messaging builds trust and memorability, but rigidity limits relevance and adaptability across audiences/channels.
  • “The main thing that I talk about often… is respecting context… Rigidity can limit your relevance.” —Stefani [23:46]
• Use “bumpers” (like in bowling): set boundaries but allow creative adaptation and expansion by channel.
• Adapt technical/long-form or trusted messaging where needed (e.g. supplements) rather than sticking strictly to brand book.

8. Launching a Brand in 2025: What’s the First Growth Move?

[25:43 – 27:26]

• Focus on community-driven influencer affiliate platforms, specifically Shop My.
  • “If I were launching a brand tomorrow, I’d want to penetrate multiple different types of important communities… with really solid orbits of people and community around them that align with our product…” —Stefani [25:53]
• You can build a multimillion-dollar business before CRM or paid media with word-of-mouth and trusted creators.
• Shop My is very selective; this exclusivity actually enhances community trust and desirability.

Memorable Quotes

• “A scalable, healthy, profitable business blends both [product and performance marketing].” —Stefani [08:28]
• “You can stay in your lane and be an expert and still have the mindset of a business owner.” —Stefani [18:22]
• “If the baseline agreement… is that we love our product, and then inherently… you love the customer that loves your product, how can you go wrong?” —Stefani [11:40]
• “Consistency builds trust, memorability, launch cohesion. But rigidity can limit your relevance.” —Stefani [23:46]
• “You don’t want to stand up anything or get a product dropped in your lap for Q4 to move that you don’t believe in—or at least never said anything.” —Ari [18:13]
• “Shop My is very protective of what is allowed to be sold… They really don’t just let anyone in.” —Ari [27:26]

Important Timestamps

• Introductions & Banter: [01:41 – 03:25]
• Staud (Product-led) vs. Savage X Fenty (Marketing-led) Growth: [03:26 – 05:39]
• Celebrity Influence in Brand Models: [05:39 – 06:39]
• Trade-Offs & Risk Assessment of Each Model: [07:24 – 10:09]
• Collaborating Across Product, Growth, Marketing: [11:34 – 16:32]
• Growth Mindset & Accountability: [16:32 – 18:31]
• Channel Evaluation (CTV, OOH, Retail Media): [18:35 – 23:21]
• Messaging Consistency Strategy: [23:21 – 25:43]
• Launching a New Brand: First Move: [25:43 – 27:26]

Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, tactical, and packed with real-world anecdotes. Both speakers are refreshingly transparent about their wins, challenges, and even “failures you have to be able to stomach.” The tone is collaborative and not afraid to challenge conventional wisdom or call out “BS” marketing clichés.

Summary Takeaways

• Modern brand growth isn’t either/or—it’s a strategic blend of product obsession and performance-marketing muscle.
• Growth teams should be holistic business thinkers and tightly woven into product and brand.
• When expanding to new channels, prioritize context, creative risk, and go where your customers physically (and digitally) spend trust—not just where CAC is lowest.
• Community-driven brand-building (via platforms like Shop My) is increasingly outpacing classic paid media at launch.
• Consistency matters in messaging, but not at the expense of relevance and authenticity by channel.

This episode is essential listening for any marketer or founder seeking to navigate the complexities of scaling a modern brand—without falling for the typical playbook. Ari and Stefani offer a nuanced, actionable roadmap, with plenty of hard-earned lessons and a few zingers you’ll want to quote in your next marketing meeting.