← The Marketing Millennials
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- [00:03]
Daniel Murray
Welcome to the Marketing Millennials, the no BS Marketing podcast. I'm Daniel Murray and join me for unfiltered conversations with the brains behind marketing's coolest companies. The one request I tell our guests stories or it didn't happen. Get ready to turn the up.
- [00:28]
Marco
Today's guest on the market Millennials is my friend, Marco. Retail media. At Sephora, we get into what retail media actually is, why is it blowing up, and how Sephora is running full funnel campaigns across search, social, CTV and beyond. Marco also shares what marketers need to understand if they want to win in this space. By the way, this was recorded last year, but I think you'll still find the insights super relevant. Hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Marketing Millennials. Today I have Marco. He's the head of retail media at Sephora. We'll get into what retail media is because I learned about retail media recently. It's really cool. It's changing marketing, but I'll let Marco give a quick intro of how he got into retail media and then we can have the conversation.
- [01:24]
Awesome. Well, thanks for having me, Daniel. Really excited to be here. I got into marketing sort of by accident. I did not, I did not study marketing in college. I actually started my career in humanitarian development over in Africa and the Middle East. And then I got a job. A friend of mine got me a job at a company called Vistaprint, which is the company that used to send like 500 free business cards. And I was doing business development in the partnerships group. This was forever ago. And what we were doing at the time was we were getting products that vistaprint didn't manufacture, but we knew that small businesses would need and we were getting them on the website in the form of ads. So if you're a small business, you need LegalZoom or you need a square reader. And we didn't have this terminology back then, but what we were doing was non endemic retail media. So I've been doing retail media for, you know, 15 years now. So I worked at Vistaprint for. It was a great company to start marketing, very analytical data, centric, a lot of AB testing. And while I was there, I met these three guys, Paul Lieberman, Jason Robbins and Matt Kalish, who were doing this sort of side project while they were still at vistaprint on, on Daily Fantasy Sports. And they, they named the company DraftKings. And when they raised their Series A round, I went over to DraftKings and I was a, you know, I Think I was like the 10th employee or something. And I was there for a couple years doing business development. And then I got back into retail media at Staples, where I joined a very small but nimble team doing retail media and building the Staples Media Network. And then I went on to, to lead that business. And then finally a few years ago, I came over to Sephora and I lead Sephora Meeting Network.
- [03:27]
I want to go into a little deeper so people understand what retail media is. So if you were going to describe this to someone who has no idea what retail media is, why should marketers care about retail media?
- [03:41]
It's a good, it's a good question, and there's a few different ways I could answer. I mean, you hear a lot of sort of like big abstractions about what is retail media. It's, it's the future of media and it's, it's digital advertising. It's the third big wave after, after search and social. I'll give you some examples of what retail media is for us, and then we can sort of expand. So you're, you're watching, you're watching Love is Blind on Netflix, and then there's an Elton John, Charlotte Tilbury ad in your ctv. That's retail media. You're watching, you know, one of your favorite influencers do their makeup routine on TikTok and they're using, you know, let's say a rare, rare beauty eyeshadow. That's retail media. You know, I'm, I'm very in the midst of it. I would say retail media has quickly become like the hottest thing in media and marketing. And in the examples I just gave, you can see that retail media, you know, it's changing search, it's changing social, and it's even changing tv. So, you know, I would say retail media is, is the process by which brands are developing closer relationships with customers. And to me, it's the hottest form of marketing on the planet.
- [05:02]
Yeah, I want to, I want to go into. A lot of marketers haven't caught on to the wave. So, yeah, like most things that start early, there's. Those early adopters are doing it well. So what are some examples of, like a campaign that someone's run. Don't have to give details of who it is, but what, what do they do? And what did the marketing campaign look like?
- [05:24]
Well, so there's a couple components to that question. There's like, what does a really good retail media campaign look like? And then there's what does that, what does a campaign look like? If you're just getting started. I would say I'll start with the just getting started piece. So the first thing to know is that pretty much anybody can do a retail media campaign that's in marketing. And the way that I would start is by thinking about like what specific products that you want to promote and what's the audience that you want to reach. And that can help you identify a retailer that you, that would make sense to work with. So the biggest retail media network in the United States is Amazon. They, they account for like 70% or something of all retail media spend. So Amazon essentially invented retail media when they, when they realize like we don't need to make money on product margin, right? We don't have to buy things at wholesale, mark them up and sell them at retail to make money. We can, we can get brands to invest in promoting their products on our platform and that's how we're going to make money. And then we can reinvest that margin from media back into traffic driving activities. It could be price, like we're going to have lower prices than everybody else. It could be marketing traffic and that's that. Amazon, Amazon flywheel. But I'm going on a tangent which I tend to do. So start with the products and then think about your audience. So if you want a Gen z or a de&I audience, you know, Sephora for example, we have really strong penetration in with Gen Z and D and I audiences. If you want, if you're, you know, if you're selling office products and you want an office and you want office managers or if you want small business, what the retailer has that's so valuable to the marketer is the audience, the retailer has that direct relationship with its own customers. And you know, I think folks tend to think of, oh, they, they own the moment at the point of transaction. And that's true and that's super valuable. But we, we own so much more as retailers than just the point of purchase. We know so much about these clients. You know, I can tell you we call them clients at Sephora. You know, we can tell you what they've been searching for on our sites. We can tell you what they purchased in the past. We can tell you what our predicted LTV for them is. So anyway, if you're getting started, think about your product, think about your audience and then think about your channels. So I would bucket retail media into two sort of big, big dimensions. There's the on site owned properties, which is sephora.com and our app. And then there's the off site operated properties. So you know, we run social campaigns on, you know, all the, all the big socials. We run display campaigns on the DSPs and then we have CTV campaigns, we even have audio campaigns in Spotify. So figure out what channel you want to target and then if you have, if you're marketing a product that is sold at a retailer, you know, chances are that retailer has some form of retail media network. And you can figure out, you know, how do I engage with this retail media network? Some of them that are more sophisticated have self service options. So you can literally like for example Amazon, you can just like set up a campaign. You don't need to have a direct relationship with the media team. We at Sephora we don't operate that way for a number of different reasons. We're sort of a private markets retail media network and it all runs through our, our brand marketing team that manages the relationships with the brands. So anyway, that's a bit of a rambling answer, but I would start with, you know, what products do you want to promote? And then think about the audience you want to reach and then select your retailer from there.
- [09:12]
One question I had on that is, so for example Amazon or all these, do they have a certain like requirement of what type of product can be marketed in their retail media? Or if I, let's say have a eyeliner brand, like I just come to Sephora and do I have to meet a requirement to be able to market on, on your network or what's, what's like the requirement?
- [09:38]
Yeah, no, no, I think I understand the question. So what I would say is, you know, there's, there's some terminology, there's what we call endemic and then not endemic in retail media. So endemic is products that the retailer sells. So for Sephora that's beauty products. Now at Amazon pretty much everything is endemic because they sell it. But like if you were to see auto ads on Amazon that would be non endemic or airline ads on Amazon that's not so non endemic is things that you don't sell. Does that.
- [10:09]
Yeah, that makes the. Maybe. So since if I wanted to reach Sephora's audience and I had an audience that a product that was close to what I want the audience, I can come to you and be like, hey, I want to reach these Gen Z people with my product. What, what campaigns could I, what campaigns I, because I actually had a cool story about this and this is like an Amazon story, but one of my friends has a skincare company and I, I was like, why aren't you on Amazon. And I went on Amazon and I was just like searched like all like their, all like five of their products and it popped up and it was going to like their competitors because they weren't on Amazon. I was like, why are you missing all this traffic from like people who are going there? Naturally you're basically giving away all this traffic and that's like one benefit of like being in a network where you're like, you're just, otherwise you're just giving traffic to other, other people as well. That's just like more of like having a product that could be marketed on there. But there's also that other side of things where you want to reach people who are Amazon customers and I want to do something different.
- [11:20]
So. Right, yeah, a lot of retailers, Sephora is not one of them, but a lot of retailers make their audiences available via like the trade desk. So if you want to reach a specific audience for off site campaigns, you don't for a lot of retailers. And again Sephora is not one of them. You can access their audience directly through self service platforms. So you can run a campaign, you know, and cookie deprecation. Right. You need, you need some sort of addressable audience in order for your marketing to work. If you're, let's say you're running a display campaign, that audience increasingly is coming from retailers. Now we don't participate in that at Sephora for a number of different reasons, but a lot of retailers do and they're really performant audiences because they're verified. And oftentimes in the case of really sophisticated retail media networks, those audiences have been broken down into very specific segments that a marketer can, can leverage to drive performance for, for a campaign.
- [12:26]
So I've talked to you a little bit about this before. So there's kind of, you have multiple different avenues where you can use retail media, which is you can either do like you were saying, like display campaigns, paid campaigns, but there's also like the influencer part which is probably one of the biggest part of that. So do you have, do you set up like a network of Sephora or like influences that they can tap in as well that you can use a campaign or is it just to display?
- [12:58]
Yes. So yeah, retail media is very much a full funnel phenomenon. It is not, I think, you know, for a lot of retail media networks where retail media is maturing, it was initially for a lot of retailers like you're going to see sponsored products on the website or you're going to see a banner on the website, it's going to say sponsored on it. We're way past that now. Right, so now you have all the stuff that we've been talking about where, so I'll give you the example at Sephora. So what we do is we run, we have packages and our brands will partner with brands on these packages. And they're getting a full funnel marketing campaign that includes sponsored products in the search and browse pages of Sephora. They're getting display banners on sephora.com and in the app. But then they're also getting off site campaigns that span display, off site display, social, CTV and audio. And you, you talked about social and influencers. One of our great differentiators as a retail media network is that we have something called Sephora Squad, which is our own group of influencers that we have direct relationships with that you know, have been hand selected by Sephora. And you know, these, these influencers have massive followings on social. You know, let's say TikTok for the example from earlier. You know, and beauty is an interesting category too because it's such a social category. First of all, our customers love our products and they love to share what they're doing and they love to learn from influencers not just what products they're using but how they're combining them with other products to create beauty routines. And so a brand can now insert itself in that process and they can know that they're reaching like a Gen Z or a D and I audience in TikTok with this user generated content. So it's a very compelling value proposition to the brand. And increasingly as we're seeing, you know, like shoppable video and the conversion funnel collapsing, there's a convergence happening between content and commerce. Any shoppable video format, you're going to start to see clients that are transacting in traditionally upper funnel channels like social and open web. Right. So yeah, at Sephora we, we run full funnel marketing across a bunch of different channels on site, off site. You're right that user generated content, particularly social video, is super powerful in general. But particularly for retail media, one question.
- [15:32]
Is for like on site stuff for, for brands that do, how does, how does it feel natural to like if I'm trying to pick like how do I pick something that feels natural to my brand that doesn't feel like I'm overly marketing to, to someone that feels organic to what I'm trying to do?
- [15:51]
So if you're on site and you're endemic.
- [15:55]
Yeah.
- [15:55]
Which means you're a product that the retailer sells Product listing ads or sponsored products, which is basically just like Google Plays for an individual retailer are a great way to create that experience because there's no incremental creative required. It's literally just like your product was going to show up at the, at the bottom of page one in the search grid and now it's showing up in the third slot and you're paying on a cost per click basis. That's a very natural way to amplify and increase, add to carts and increase visits to your product detail page. So that's a very natural way to do it. And that works really well for. It works well for everybody. But particularly for small brands. Whereas display on the site we typically see that bigger brands have a higher roas and display which, which makes sense, you know, like because. Because the targeting for display is a little bit broader and if you're a small brand and you're competing sort of on the mid to long tail of a keyword, it's not gonna be as expensive on a cost per click basis as if you're trying to do like a huge flashy display campaign on a homepage or across search and browse. So depending on the brand that you're representing, different channels might make more sense.
- [17:16]
Yeah, I mean. Cause I've seen for example on sephora.com like you search like a certain term and like a Valentino ad comes up or a certain, like those display ads and it feels natural because you just. Because some sites don't feel natural. That's what I'm trying to make the point. Like sometimes you go to. Yeah, it ruins experience.
- [17:37]
Yeah. You don't want it to be like shouting in the client's face like this is an ad. You want it to feel native. Right. Yeah, I must. I totally agree with you. I think ultimately what the customer cares about is getting a relevant product presented to them. They don't care if it's, you know, paid for on a CPM or a CPC basis. They want it to be relevant to them. And the more native the look and feel is, the better. You know, there is a while and there's still sites out there like this where there's like tons of IB standard or like GAN programmatic display banners all over these sites. And that's not as. I think that's not as good an experience as a more natural native display banner that fits in with the overall merchandising look and feel of a website. And those perform better.
- [18:26]
Yeah, you've seen it in just like regular media sites forever where you have all these random display ads that are nothing to do and next to weird articles and you, your product's next to something that says something you don't. But you can't really control that. Cause you're using Trade Desk to buy a display ad. So you show up in weird places that you probably don't want your brand to show up, but you don't control. If you pick those places to advertise on, it could have a negative effect on your brand instead of a positive effect.
- [19:02]
Yeah, and I think you're hitting on one of the great benefits of retail media again, which is our relationship with the client. It's a direct relationship. And so you can target pretty precisely who you want to reach with your marketing campaign. One analogy that our, our old former CEO used to use is that with some marketing, it felt like he was fishing blind. And now with retail media, he was casting into a smaller pond. You know, you can direct your marketing dollars in a much more intelligent way with retail media because you know exactly who's on the site. And the retailers can run audience campaigns where we say, look, we only want to run a campaign to customers who have shown an affinity for this product category. We don't want your fragrance customers, we want your hair care customers. You can do that kind of stuff on retail media in a very direct way. That is harder to do if you're running an ad, a display campaign through Trade Desk that shows up on Wall Street Journal or espn.
- [20:03]
Yeah. And also you guys have one of the best data points, which is purchase data, which is a lot. I mean, any retailer is someone spending a lot. You could probably target, I'm not sure because I haven't done it, but probably target the people who are spending upwards of 1,000, $2,000 on the side. And then that. And then if you're more.
- [20:27]
We have loyalty data, Right. So like, we have. Our crown jewel is our loyalty program. It's the Beauty Insider program. We have 40 million beauty insiders. They represent 98% of our transactions. And so, and we have a ton of data on these people. And so it creates this, a very strong foundation upon which to build a media business. Because you're right, we have that purchase data, but we have, we have all their purchase data and we have all their search data on our site. So we, we have a pretty strong profile about these, these clients, what they like and what, what they don't like. We, we might know, hey, this client, they really like new stuff. They like new brands, they like to try out new things. Or we Might know, like this client is really up market, we should be giving them the best of the best or this client is lower market, we should be giving them more intro stuff. And the other thing that we have for the brand is, is, you know, a lot is said about that purchase point and that transaction data, which is, which is super valuable, right? Because you know, like, all right, I showed the ad, it was exposed to Daniel and then he purchased. And I can draw that straight line, right? But we also know whether or not you're new to that brand. So we can go beyond return on ad spend in retail media in a way that's much harder to do in other channels. This is what we're starting to see happen in the industry and we're a part of this. And this is what we're doing. At Sephora, if you spend, you know, 50 grand on a campaign and you generate $250,000 in sales, that's great, you got a 5 to 1 roas, great. But we also know that Roas is pretty correlated with brand sales. We know that that five to one, a big chunk of it's incremental, but we don't know how much is incremental. What we do know is of that, of that sales, let's say 5000 customers that transacted, right. Of those 5000, 4000 of those customers have never purchased this product or this brand before at Sephora. So you now know as a marketer, I'm not only driving return, I'm driving customer acquisition, which is really powerful. And so we're starting to share this with our brands. Not just, hey, you spent X and you got Y and your return was five to one. We're telling them you acquired X number of new customers at a cost of customer acquired of let's say 10 or $15. And these are low numbers. We're seeing very low numbers in terms of cost of customer acquired. So what we're trying to demonstrate to our brands is think about this not just as a direct response performance for Roas sake channel. This is a customer acquisition channel and it compared to your other customer acquisition channels, it's much more efficient in many cases.
- [23:15]
I mean especially. And you've kind of said that is like, especially now that with all the third party data on other sites getting weaker and weaker and not being able to use that third party data as well, it's more expensive for marketers to go on traditional, not traditional digital channels like Facebook or Google and stuff like that. We know Google is always going to be attributed as last touch for a lot of these brands, even though like it's not the best place to do it. So it's, this is another, a cool new channel that people should start testing if you want to get in front of audiences and no purchase data and get more precise with your marketing like you kind of used to do back in the day when you allowed to do that on these other channels. So it's pretty cool.
- [24:04]
Totally. And you know, there's been all this back and forth about cookie deprecation and what's Google going to do? And I, you know, I'm of the view that it doesn't really matter too much frankly. 70% of, of of open web traffic is already, you know, is not cookied and, and you have this opportunity with retail media to target a specific audience and the performance just speaks for itself. It's just a much better way of running these campaigns and it shows up in the performance. So you're totally right that as the overall landscape changes, the relative position of the retailer is getting stronger because we have what the marketer wants, which is that direct response or that direct relationship with the client.
- [24:55]
The last. Oh, I have two more questions, but the last question, I just want to like break it down like what a, a brand comes to you. What would like a campaign look like for that brand? If I would come to you and say, hey, I want to spend a hundred thousand dollars on, on retail media. What, what would, what would you suggest? I know it's depending on the product and all that stuff but like what is an example of what that would look like for a brand?
- [25:25]
Yeah, so we have a menu of packages, right. And they each have different price points and they different, each have different channel allocations. And depending on the brand and what the brand is trying to accomplish, we help the brand select the package that works best for them. And so these packages will include like a portion of your campaign is going to be on site, product listing ads or sponsor products. A portion of it's going to be display and then another big portion is going to be off site. It's going to be a lot of social. Social is very big in our space. There's going to be a lot of ctv. CTV is our fastest growing channel. There's going to be some display in there, there might be some audio in there. And we're going to break down based on this menu of packages what makes most sense for the brand. And then we run a campaign. And the good thing about this full funnel strategy is that it all works together really nicely. We can Coordinate. This is the kind of creative that we're going to be running. This is the product that's going to be a promotion that's kind of at the center of the campaign. This is the audience that we're trying to target and it all sort of works together for the brand. So that at the end of the, you know, let's say two months of the campaign running, they get to see a report of here's how the whole thing performed for us and that's ultimately what the brands want. You know, I think historically there's been a lot of different business units within retailers that run a co op campaign over here and a display campaign over here, an on site campaign over there. It's good for the brand to have a cohesive, holistic story so they can see how their marketing investment is working for them.
- [27:04]
Yeah. And I think one, you guys know, you have a lot of data of how previous campaigns worked, what creatives work for certain brands, all that stuff. And then also like it's so much easier to not as a marketer, to not have to go to eight different places to do this one thing where I will have to go spend on like social. I have to buy a CTV ad. I have to do this.
- [27:27]
Exactly.
- [27:28]
I have to do that thing. I can just do it through one place and you can be like the one stop shop that helps put it all out for us.
- [27:35]
We got it.
- [27:37]
Yeah. So that's a way better. That's also like why it is a little bit of the future marketing, because marketing is hard enough already to like have to manage all these channels. So it's just having a one stop shop where someone could tell you hey, this is where your dollars are going to go. This is what creative you should be running. Um, I've seen it done before. This is what success looks like. Here's a report so you can show your boss how it's successful and make you a better marketer.
- [28:08]
So that's a really, that's a really good point. And I would say it's going to get even easier because you know these retail media networks, they're popping up at retailers, right? These companies are retailers, they're not media companies. And so there's this, it's a process of a retailer like building these media capabilities and learning how to serve the brands and their, and their digital marketing arms. And you know, some, some retailers have been doing this for, for many years now and they're sophisticated. Other ones, you know, every, every month there's a new retail media network. So Every, each one is sort of in its own stage. But as time goes on, these retailers are getting more and more sophisticated about how to do exactly what you just said, which is make it easy for a brand to run a marketing campaign to their customers.
- [29:00]
Yeah. And I mean obviously the big thing here is like the company, the companies are winning are the ones that have the better data for the customer. And that's where you probably should go first. The ones that you know, have, are collecting the right data points because that's at the end of the day what really matters. And this whole thing is like, do we have the right data points that I can target as I market it?
- [29:25]
Exactly, exactly. And that that data reflects the strength of the relationship between the retailer and the customer. Right. And so for, for a brand to be able to access that data is, is super powerful because a lot of these brands, you know, it's a little bit different in beauty, but at Staples certainly, and to some extent at Sephora, a lot of these brands don't have Strong direct to D2C channels. So they really are relying on the retailer to teach them about their own customer. And that's the core value that the retailer is bringing. To your point, that data set. And you're also right that the retailers that are going to be successful are the ones that are good at this. BCG put together a great slide a few months ago on sort of, I think it was like top 10. It's like top 10 retailers by revenue over each decade. And you can just see over the decades the ones that have stayed around and the ones that have fallen off and every single one of the retailers that is now in the top 10 by revenue, one of the things that they all have in common is that they all have exceptionally strong retail media networks.
- [30:40]
I mean it makes total sense. And I also think like something like Sephora where you, you collecting data points in so many different places where you have an app that's on a phone, you have the sephora.com and then also you have actually retail stores all over the country where people are going in and buying products and, and it's, it's.
- [31:04]
Also good for, we haven't even talked about in store, but in store, that is the next wave in store. I mean some, some retailers are doing a good job, but we're generally as an industry pretty early. Like you're going to start to see really cool retail media in store activations and I think the best ones, it's going to be hard to know if it's even retail Media, you'll start to see screens with ads running and that already happens in a bunch of retailers, but it's still fairly early. I would say Europe is ahead of us on this actually. You'll see, you'll have audio, so you'll have audio playing in retailers, but I think you're also going to see bigger activations where it's hard to know like, is this a retail media campaign or not? I mean, in Europe, I can't remember which retailer it was, but they put a wrap on the store. There was a Pepsi wrap on the store. They literally turned the outside of the store into, and do a publisher into content. So not to say that that's going to work for everybody, but it just shows what's already happening and how fast this is evolving and the kinds of things that we're going to see happen in stores.
- [32:13]
And it's also, I mean you, I mean now like, you, like retailers are going to like rethink store design, how to naturally insert these placements in the right place. Especially like Sephora, where Sephora makeup is such like a, a touchy thing that you have to like see if it works for your skin and work for your. So they in the store so long. Like I go with Ari all the time and we're in the store so long that I'm like, how are you in a makeup store for 45 minutes to an hour? Like, this is like ridiculous. And what, and what website are you in for 45 minutes to an hour? Like, that's the crazy part about it. So people in the.
- [32:54]
Yeah, it's, it's the time, it's the time that you're spending with the, with the media format and then the, the corresponding amount of ad dollars if, if that's sort of your like metric. The in store is like in store is just at the beginning. There's so much time spent in store and there's so little ad dollars running to in store that it's a huge opportunity. And a lot of really smart people in the industry are predicting that it's going to be the fastest growing channel with within retail media.
- [33:24]
The last question I have for you, and I like to ask everybody on this podcast is what is a marketing hill you would die on?
- [33:32]
Well, I think we've talked about it already a little bit. I would say it's time for the industry to start thinking beyond Roas and I'm far from the first person to say that many people have said that and I think those voices are getting louder. We just have the Opportunity to get more intelligent about how we measure the effectiveness of our marketing. Given the capabilities and the data points available to the retailer, we can now really do this. We can tell you this is how many customers you acquired from this campaign. Forget about the roas, because we know that the ROAS is overly corresponding to brand sales. We can start to think about running, you know, holdouts and we got to figure out exactly how we're going to do it and make it, make it scalable while also allowing us to reach statistical significance. But we can start to say like, this is a, this is your IROAs, this is your incremental ROAs. So I think incremental roas is going to become bigger and bigger. I think before that I'd like to see more retailers publishing new to brand or new to category metrics. So if you, you know, let's say you're l' Oreal and you have a bunch of different products on a retailer across a number of different categories. If you're l', Oreal, you know, you know, if you acquire Daniel as for the first time, all right, you acquired a customer. That's simple, that's easy, that's great. You know, we know that's great. But what if, what if Daniel was already a skincare customer but not a makeup customer and now they've become a makeup customer? That tells you that's a really strong indicator of LTV growth, right? Like if you get customers that are buying into new categories of your products, that's a really strong indicator that you, you are generating higher LTV on these customers. So I think that's my hill to die on is that, you know, I, I like roas. Roas is great, but there's so much more that we can be doing and it's all right there waiting for us. And so I think the industry's catching up and you're going to start to see a lot more robust performance reporting coming out of retail media.
- [35:47]
I do like that because I think a lot of like for the D2C, a lot of people are acquiring, acquiring the same customer over and over and over and over and spending exactly the same, the same customer. And that's like the, the same as like I used to work in like the food app delivery Food app delivery company. And the one of the biggest things is like these, like the first purchase on like, like a doordash for a restaurant is great because they're like acquiring a net new person who never heard of like their, their restaurant before. But if you start ordering 18 times on that brand, like they're actually like, like now they're losing money on it because like they're, the cost to acquire them is like, so then they have to raise prices and all this crazy stuff. So, so no, it's a really good point.
- [36:38]
And all of that insight is lost in the metric of roas because you're treating every sale as equivalent. You know, the sale that's driven by a campaign for a new customer is way more valuable to the brand than a repeat customer that was, you know, probably going to buy anyway. Right. The sale of a customer that's in, you know, even if it's the same brand, but it's new to category, new category for that brand, that's a more valuable sale to the brand. So I think, you know, as time moves on we're just going to get more sophisticated about measuring these things and you know, we're getting the pressure from the brands, Brands want it and the retailers are in position to deliver. So I think, I think we're going to get there soon.
- [37:23]
And last thing I have for you is like where could people find you what you're doing and explore Sephora Retail Network if they wanted to.
- [37:33]
So you can me personally, you can find me on LinkedIn. And in terms of finding Sephora Media Network, we are actually an invite only program. So we're pretty unique in the retail media network space and that we, we, we will find you, we will invite the brands to participate. Right. We don't do a lot of non endemic, really any non endemic. So it's all brands that we sell. But if you are a Sephora brand that, and you're listening to this, I would say reach out to your brand marketer and your brand marketer can provide you with more information about Sephora Media Network and all the, the different capabilities that we offer.
- [38:15]
Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it and it was great chatting.
- [38:20]
Thanks for having me Daniel. Appreciate it.
- [38:24]
Daniel Murray
Thanks so much for listening. Keep tuning in to hear more great insights from the coolest marketers from around the world. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe and follow the Marketing Millennials podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever, wherever you get your podcast. And if you like what you hear, I would greatly appreciate you giving us.
- [38:45]
Marco
A five star rating.
- [38:47]
Daniel Murray
It helps bring more marketers into our community.