← The Marketing Millennials
The Marketing Millennials
The Human Advantage in an AI World with Emma Robinson, Head of B2B Marketing at Canva | Ep. 394
00:41:24
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- [00:01]
A
There's a big gap between having data and turning that data into real customer personalization. Customer IO closes that gap. Fun personalized experiences for Every channel with AI to handle the boring stuff. Learn more at Customer IO TMM. Welcome to the Marketing Millennials, the NoBS Marketing Podcast. I'm Daniel Murray and join me for unfiltered convers with the brains behind marketing's coolest companies. The one request I tell our guests stories or it didn't happen. Get ready to turn the up. We are back with another episode of the Marketing Millennials podcast. I am here with Emma Robinson for Robbo in Australia. And I think, I think I like the name Dano. I think Dano would be a cool name to have as well. And she is at B2B Marketing at Canva. And I'm super excited to chat because I'm a huge fan of Canva and super user Canva. So all my memes are made in Canva. So I love Canva. Really excited to chat.
- [01:20]
B
Yeah, thanks for having me. It's great. I appreciate all the love for Canva. So thank you for that. But yeah, so I'm looking forward to the conversation.
- [01:29]
A
I'm going to first ask how did you get into marketing?
- [01:33]
B
Yeah, so this goes back a while, but I think I'm in marketing because I am a failed ballerina is the tldr. Spent a lot of time doing dance growing up, but realized it was probably not the career with the most longevity. So it was becoming a really big thing and lots of different complexity. And I think what it sort of drew me to it was that when you're actually in the world of technology, you actually do start to see how great it can impact people's lives, like in a really positive way, sometimes in a negative way, but mostly in a positive way. And so my first ever job was actually doing point of sale systems programming, shockingly enough. And I would and I did that for weigh scales for point of sale. So I did it for British retailer who's very well known and after a few years I realized, you know, that that can kind of get you so far, but technology actually has so many better implications and applications and I think just ultimately just being able to sort of see how the technology impacted use cases, people, how they shop in the world, like how to make things easier and better and safer and all of those things like that really attracted me to that world. And then I think naturally I fell into more of a product marketing path and then spent best part of now, I guess, couple of decades, shockingly mostly in B2B marketing. But it's been a wild ride, let's say, from weighing bananas to where I am now at Canva with design. It's been an interesting arc, that's for sure.
- [03:14]
A
I think. I mean, most marketers I know come from such a crazy background, so I think that. But I think yours is one of the most interesting ones I've heard so far. So I want to get into this. I think the conversation of AI is coming all over and AI is making production faster and cheaper. But I want to ask you, why do you believe human validation is becoming exponentially more valuable, not less valuable?
- [03:40]
B
Yeah, it's a great question, and it's one I think that as marketers we're all going to grapple with for probably many years to come. But ultimately it's because humans, at the end of the day, who we're selling to, and you really have to make sure that you're appealing to that human judgment first and foremost. And then I think as you start to unpack the B2B journey in that regard, what you see is just a ton of people who are using AI to of course, create ton of content. But then also that sort of doesn't help this clarity of the B2B buying cycle. So you've got all of these buyers that are responding to different channels, they're responding to different content pieces, all of those types of things, which means it's very much less reliant on what we traditionally used to know, like ads and clicks and so forth. And all of that is just exponentially blowing up because of the ease of use and that sort of low entry path to being able to create content because of AI. So it sort of becomes like, how do you bring in that human element, that element of surprise and delight, the sort of tension that we all want to feel that maybe AI is not as great at being able to do just yet, at least in our experience. I haven't seen that come through yet. So, yeah, it's incredibly important to have that human connection and. And if anything, it just sort of evokes that emotion that you basically need to kind of set a brand memorability on. Like that's the platform that you go do that on. But yeah, I mean, it's an incredibly important part is the short answer. And it's one that I think as marketers we're all beholden to continue to push on and find ways to bring humans in the loop on AI. Otherwise we see it in platforms out in the world today that it becomes Just this sort of homogenized kind of see a sameness that everybody can see when the AI is doing its work. And I don't know about you, but I don't really feel as inspired or assured by some of those interactions. So you can tell me differently. But I certainly feel like that in
- [06:02]
A
a weird way, humans are becoming like the new API for AI. That human touch needs to be part of AI, otherwise it becomes slop and we need to have that. I still think AI is not at the point where it could teach taste and can teach years of experience and can teach gut feeling. Just teach us what it's learned in the past. And usually that's kind of like the csamness as what they learned in the past. Everyone is using AI, like we said, to move faster, but sometimes speed makes marketing actually more generic in some ways. How do you get faster with AI but not get duller?
- [06:49]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. You definitely don't want that. And actually, it's kind of interesting. We just this research which basically describes how humans interact with content, how they perceive it, and we use this technique called neuroscience to be able to understand that people or humans visually, when they see visual content, they encode it much faster, 74% faster than when they see dull content. So we see in the data, actually, these things really matter. And this is one of the first times I think people have really put a science and a language around what it means to kind of show dull content and like how people and humans perceive it and internalize it. And it's not a great outcome. Like, I think if we're all in the spirit of trying to find paths to clarity, to have brand cohesion, to be able to have your brand stand out in the sea of, you know, every other brand out there, you know, in the world, then dull is just never really an option. And so I think tools like canva, fortunately are able to be able to kind of be that bridge in some ways, like you will be able to use, using things like brand kits and brand systems, you can already have a layer of governance and control and your own creativity that comes with your brand. And so that's sort of the guardrail in some ways, like not the handcuff, but very much a guardrail. And then from there you can build your sort of surprise and delight, like really truly better quality content. But look, I mean, that data is so fascinating. I don't know if you've done much research in that space or seen much research in that space, but the idea that the brain is actually tracking the way that we perceive and internalize and then also what that means for companies. Being able to work in a company like Canva, where the content is so visually rich, every all hands, every interaction, every meeting, every finance meeting, there's beautiful visual storytelling that happens. And so that sort of deep clarity that comes with those things and then that connection to brand is what we hope, I guess, that everybody can actually take some learnings from. And again, go back to your sort of previous question around the human piece is like, that's the bit we all get up in the morning about. Like, we all want to go to work and experience the way that feels. Sorry, excuse me. The way that feels. Because it is a great sort of buzz to be able to be in a world where this content is just so visually rich and helps to get that clarity.
- [09:31]
A
Yeah, I was actually talking to someone who works at Mars and he was saying that he works in the data science part. And they actually test ads with humans and see how their brain interacts. Ads versus how we interact with ads, because our brains act differently than what we usually say, or things light up in our brain when we see a certain color or a certain phrase or a certain emotion is triggered. So it's pretty interesting, that space. I want to dive in more on that space, but I want to know also, what is the internal role at Canva for using AI? How do you guys use AI in your own org?
- [10:12]
B
Yeah, well, it's big. I mean, it's an initiative I think we started well over a year ago, actually, where, you know, part of it is access to the right tooling. And I think companies have maybe been a little bit slow to give employees that just because, you know, there's a lot of governance and control that happens in large companies in particular. But Canva is very focused on being able to open up the aperture for different tools and be able to provide everybody the opportunity to kind of like look at different use cases and understand how the tech can support those things. So we use like the enterprise licenses of, you know, all our friends in OpenAI and Anthropic and so forth. So the tool choice is important, but then it's what you do with the choice. And I think some teams have been really naturally curious and able to find the time and the, the learning and the skills development to be able to take it and really run with different use cases. And then some teams have been a little slower to adopt. So I think the company and itself is trying to provide the right platform for those things. Like we run sort of sprints on AI, we run hackathons where we're like looking at different use cases. And I think what I've seen in the last, probably at least the last eight months is it started very much as how do you get improvements in efficiency and productivity? And so can you make content a little bit better? Can you do use AI as more of a thought partner, you know, being able to like ideate and find tension or just trying to explore and then you start to see actually use cases that take it from being just about efficiency and productivity to how do you actually go find new ways to serve the customer better? For example, we have a platform which is very AI focused called Canva Grow, which takes performance ads and really uses AI to create them, but also test them really heavily. And it's an example of where now we've been able to create like 20% more ads because now that that process got easier. But actually the loop that comes back is actually making sure that the customers are engaging or folks are engaging with those ads in a much like profound way, like the time on the ad and then you actually see that kind of like pull through into a conversion tactic which shows that actually those ads are performing. And hopefully if you're feeling that you're getting the right ad and you're solving a problem and you're then exploring an opportunity to solve that problem with a product or a service, then that can only help. So I think it's sort of a smaller example, but it is an example where we have to start somewhere. We're not going to just immediately go to get new revenue streams. We intend to be there, but it's just those things take time to develop and grow. So I think there's sort of an internal challenge a little with AI, like the tooling part is just one of it and then it's how do you move away from these use cases that do you feel very kind of productivity led to actually how are they really becoming kind of revenue generating? Or at least there's an ROI on them that our CFO and others feel good about because there's a lot of investment in time, energy, effort, resources across many, many companies right now to be able to, you know, like set their employees up for success. And at some point I feel like we're going to be asked the question, what is this doing for us all?
- [13:53]
A
I think the cost cutting goes so far. I like that you're thinking that, okay, what are some revenue generating things? And the ad example is a super good example of how can we let AI be more efficient in testing ad creative actually have results that pull through that shows that these ad creatives, that's why creative strategist is a role in itself. Looking at creative, looking what I performed on Meta and Google and TikTok and analyzing was it the hook was in the middle of the ad. Was the CTA good enough? And seeing where you can adjust in that creative strategy.
- [14:39]
B
The other thing I would just add on that too is is the time savings that you get with being able to kind of have that low entry point to AI and be able to do things faster and more efficient that time saving. It's really important that you actually protect that and that goes into other more meaningful things. And it's like a slight nuance, but I think that that is incredibly important. So can you use that time to go and help sales create better like email copy for outbound emails? Can you do more, deeper research on your customer base, on the Personas that you're selling to? Is there like a micro audience piece that could. It's like you got to find opportunities for leverage in that and I think sometimes that people miss that and, and just being able to really kind of codify like actually this is a productivity efficiency gain. But then this is also what I'm getting from it and that hopefully will compound over time.
- [15:33]
A
I also want to go into enterprise marketers because they love to think that all their decisions are the most rational decision and no emotion comes in the decision. And they're not like every other buying cycle in the world where like there's emotion with the buying cycle and then logic is justified. So where does emotion actually show up in enterprise buying? Do you think it's like the, the fear of being wrong, making the wrong choice? Is it status? Is it career wiz? Is it ambition to roi? Where is that emotion coming from an enterprise buying?
- [16:08]
B
Yeah, that's a great question. And you know, I mean we're all emotional beings because we're human. And so I think, you know, answer is that it shows up in lots of places in the buying cycle in different forms. But I think you do open the door with emotion, right? Like we're all trying to find the right sort of levity because we want things to be like educational and entertaining at the same time. We want things to appeal. That tension I talked about earlier is like a really important piece to be able to get people reacting to an idea and being inspired by it. So like I think there's a lot of that human element that comes in for that, but you're right. I mean, I buy a lot of of marketing tech software. And as I look at the way that I interact with vendors, I want to be inspired by their vision, by the fact that there'll be a great partner, that there's, you know, like their roadmap feels really exciting and innovative. So there's all the things that I care about and then there's this practical reality of, well, actually the assurance comes in because I need to know that, you know, I'm not ultimately going to get fired for making this decision on this software. And that is, you know, something that's easy to implement. It's something that's going to stand up, stand the test of time, that the rest of the employees will love it. There's a lot of things that come with that that are more human elements. And so the idea, I guess, is that you still have to appeal, like in a lot of your marketing, especially in the upper funnel, to that idea of innovation and aspiration. But then the logic and the assurance comes in when you're engaging with it, when you're in the procurement cycle, those risks, the de risk part of that is around how do you show up with logic? Can we be trust? Are we going to have uptime? Is there guardrails in place for creation of content across the board? And does creativity feel like it has some parameters when you're using something like Canva? So I think the real kind of answer is probably more around the sequencing of these things. You earn that attention up front, but then you back it up with rational belief and logic. And then, you know, we did this. It was actually. I don't know if you have ever been to Canva Create event, but our community event happens once a year and we did it in LA a couple of years ago to launch our enterprise product and we got a wrapper to come and wrap this incredible fun. What we thought was like very unapologetically Canva, but it was a wraparound why you should use Canva for enterprise and you know, in companies and the problems you can solve and how it has all those things like security and so forth in it. So you know that that got 50 million YouTube views. Like it was a lot of discussion in the community. So it was a moment where you have that human inspiration and whether you liked it or didn't, it's another thing. But it was memorable, right? You had recall, you built brand equity in that. But then that was very intentional. But the piece behind it was that you follow up with customer case studies you know, pro, like the, the logic around how we control things, what the guardrails are, the, the, you know, the, the security elements, like all of those things are really, really important. So I, I think you can do both, but you have to just sequence it in the right way.
- [19:34]
A
Yeah. Especially with a big buy. Like you need to, I mean the motion side is like you said, the hook. And then you need to have the social proof. The, you need to have those badges to prove that you're secure, like you're actually secure. You need to have someone talking through the security side that's an expert in that to talk to the IT department. You can't just. Those are the things that become that trust layer. And then also, I mean, lucky, like one of the biggest trust layers Canva has, it has brand. And brand is like, I think something that when you see other enterprise people using it and trusting those logos, it automatically softens the blow a little bit when you go to that next level. If you're a challenger brand trying to prove out the next part of trust, you have to go even deeper in those case studies and those certifications and those expert people. But, but that's why brand is so important like Canva has, where it can at least push you closer to the finish line without having you still need the validation. But the brand is like making the decision easier for that end user to not have those emotional risks involved as well.
- [21:00]
B
Yeah, no, I totally think you hit the nail on the head. I mean it's, you know, I mean we take a lot of pride in the brand and we're lucky to have this very strong B2C or consumer brand that, you know, had roots in PLG and has grown very successfully. So in some ways I'm not going to confess that the job is sometimes easier because you have this very trusted community of very strong advocates and the product market fit is very strong. So that does carry a lot of weight into the enterprise decision making process. But it's not ultimately the full then it's about really the deployment, the implementation and the human elements that come with making a technology choice that are not just about sort of like a checklist. They're really about does this feel like the right decision? But also is it backed up like you say, with all of those credentials and capabilities and then also is it proven so are the customers using it? So yeah, I think the top end of that is that if an idea doesn't spike emotion or uncomfortability, if it doesn't inspire that, then it probably won't actually change behavior at all. And you just get this very, very sort of no decision or this inertia that you also need to overcome. So I think sometimes brands in particular, how we think about B2B is that you have to find those real kind of surprise and delight moments and you have to appeal obviously to the people that you're selling to. But we do a series of creative dinners, which are most probably B2B brands would do executive dinners and they would spend time and effort to think about that experience. But for us, we take it a step, step further and we build out, you know, venues that can tell the product story, can talk about how you bring ideas to life in a very visual format. So you have, you know, you're sitting in a dinner and you're immersed with this incredible kind of creative experience around you, which shows how you bring in an idea into the. Into canva and actually building out all the assets and the creativity and, you know, what comes out of that, that process. So you're, you're bringing like a product story, a human element and then creativity all into the same experience. And so that's how I think you can also stand out a lot more when you're a B2B brand if you just find like what those unique things are that you can do that help to sell your brand and your product promise, but in a way that, that feels differentiated and feels, you know, interesting, exciting for. For those who want to. Want to attend. So, yeah, they're a lot of fun.
- [23:40]
A
I want to ask you a question. So I mean, the use of AIs is increasing, like the volume of content in the market. So what do you think becomes SC in the market? Is it taste? Is it brand, Is it distribution, Is it trust? What does AI. Because when something increases going to be something that becomes scarce in the market. So what do you think that is when. When you see more. More and more content?
- [24:02]
B
Yeah, no, I think, you know, as a marketing leader, I feel like my job is not produce content anymore, but it's actually to create judgment. To create judgment. Like it's. And I think taste is a. Is. You've, you know, that's a really interesting idea because. Because it's also very intrinsic to people taste. And it's something that when you break it down, can you teach Taste, I think is a really interesting thing. And it's sort of almost like built by contrast. Right. So we typically find a way we break it down is to find examples of where we think are really outstanding content examples and creativity examples and Then where we have sort of mediocre and then subpar and we spend a lot of time looking at that creative and everybody gets to contribute to actually what we think is good, bad or indifferent and why. And certainly when you have creative strategists in the room or creative directors, they're very, very good at being able to teach this idea of this feels off. How do we recognize quality? This just doesn't quite hit the nail on the head. So you do that comparing side by side. And the ritual of doing that, the ritual of asking question like, you know, does this feel premium? Is this unclear? Is the tension like the right tension? Is it, is it like, does it actually age well? So, you know, would this, if you took a logo off, could you see that this is canva in two years? Like there are questions that you fundamentally need to ask about the creative. That becomes the ritual, becomes the order process, becomes like a discussion. And then once you start doing that with a lot of marketers, you start to be able to really all be on the same page with how you think about what does it look like to have really good taste. And then it's also like this, I guess an internal calibration system. And then ultimately the outcome of that is that you hope that you'll end up with better quality output, whether that be a landing page or whether that's like a LinkedIn post, or whether it is a creative ad or an asset. It wants to be the sharpest best possible. And you can still use AI obviously as the underlying to get that, that all of those assets delivered. But you want to be able to have that taste human in the loop commentary that sits over the top, that sort of calibration, just to make sure that it is the right thing before it goes out into the world. So yeah, and then I think that the judgment piece is interesting because you start to look at, I guess, what is this piece for? So is it for a CMO or is it for more of a mass marketing approach to a whole marketing team? Does it need to go create pipeline, direct pipeline, or does it need to help with the brand equity? And so some of those things are actually really tough discussions to have. And I think you have to all be really clear about what you're optimizing for on those particular ads or even assets of any description. But it's really interesting, I think now that it's kind of a new muscle people are building. I don't think we were such taste agents in the past, but now you have to be and I think it's one of the things that marketing teams are going to have to do more and more and build like, processes and systems around being able to do.
- [27:18]
A
Yeah, I think we were taste agents probably 20 years ago when we, we didn't go into like the tracking era of everything where data. We had to be so data driven and everything. It was just relying on creative to win. And then we kind of got in this muscle that everybody had to be so data driven and we had the like, know these models and be great at Excel and we like, we. Nobody was like pushing, hey, you need it. Like, the creative marketers were like, hey, I'm here, I'm, I'm still good. Like, I, I know how to do my job. And we kind of push them to the side a little bit and now they're rising back up to the top. And it's cool that I have a tool like Canva to help them rise up to the top, but I think creative marketers are becoming more and more important as AI is going to take over a lot of the data work that has been going on in the past and the targeting work and all the stuff that we needed to do manually and needed heavy math skills to do.
- [28:16]
B
Totally, no, 100%. And I mean, yesterday I was on a creative review, actually. We're doing some work with an agency and just listening to the content strategists and the brand work. I mean, the ideation that happens when humans get in a room and brainstorm ideas, there's no way that I can even get close to that right now. Like, it's such a special craft and it should be so heavily protected. And so I think it's like, yes, the idea and the sort of creative hook needs to be there. And then I think scale and distribution comes with a platform like Canva. But yeah, I mean, it's like a phenomenal craft to be able to come up with something that feels really differentiated. And, you know, that kind of conceptual ideation process is a really interesting one on.
- [29:03]
A
And if you were talking to a group of marketing leaders right now, they want to know whether like the use of AI is actually elevating their brand or bringing their brand down, like making them more dull. What do you think the three warning signs you would give to them that they're, they're lowering their brand equity or they, they're making their brand more dull by using so much AI. We all know marketing has to feel human to work, but when each message has to be built, tested and managed across every channel, feeling human is Easier said than done. Customer IO makes it possible with AI automation and integrated marketing tools. So you could speed up repetitive work and skip the boring one size fits all marketing. Give customers customer experiences that feel like they were created just for them wherever they are. Learn more@customer ioTMF.
- [30:05]
B
Yeah, yeah, I think, look, I mean ultimately one of the biggest measures of that is the, is it translating to like clicks but then also into things like for B2B at least pipeline, you know, closed one revenue. Is it helping the buyers to actually get to that sort of aha moment quicker? Like you have to really take the full throat red line through and understand the impact to the market. And if you're seeing a bunch of like non response or you know, degradation in pipeline or in lead volume or whatever it might be in your metrics, then clearly that's a sign that maybe the creative and the content is not quite working for you in the market. So I definitely say like on the metrics and then I think there is this element of does the marketing team stand behind it? So like as a cmo, as a marketing leader or as even the CEO of the company, could you stand behind this creative and say this is best in class, like this is what my brand equity should be. And I think if the answer is I'm not sure or maybe that's not quite right or people feeling a certain way about it, then clearly again it's really not quite there. And then I think it is also it's a little bit back to that taste conversation. It's really for us as marketers to hold that taste and that protect the brand values that come with that taste, whatever that looks like for your company. And if you're not able to answer those future proof, is this the best work I could do? Am I really proud of this work? Then I think you really have to kind of take a pause and really understand whether it is around the content or it could be that your buyers have changed or something different. But I think, you know, you have to objectively look at things and it's not just like more is more volume doesn't matter in this game. It's more just about how you can still have the volume but actually also find the results that go side by side with it.
- [32:10]
A
So let's just go into the future. I mean if using AI is table stakes in the next three years, what will separate elite B2B marketers versus the average ones?
- [32:24]
B
Yeah, I think one of the answers to potentially this is it's more actually around protecting the base of the customer, like the customers that you're bringing in. We're very much sort of acquisition focused with a lot of the AI efforts. Like we're able to get ads out, we were able to do copy faster emails, and there's sort of a lot of like acquisition that comes with it. But there is this incredible need as we all see AI companies exploding and customer bases are being built. You actually need to drive loyalty. Like loyalty is going to drive more and more revenue for you ultimately, and also make the customers feel valued. So you have to find that right relationship with your customers. And I think that's something that, you know, AI is not going to. I mean, it will help in some ways in sort of the, maybe in the content, the pieces that you actually communicate with them, but ultimately it's about their stories and like how you can bring their stories to life and how you then build the best possible advocates and influencers in your market that can go out and help you to build your brand, but also help to share and their examples of how successful they're being using the software. So there's an element that I think is very human in that that I don't think we should overlook. And then I think, you know, we talked a bit about the AI proving the roi, but I do feel that there will be a lot of questions asked by CFOs and other folks in the organization that, okay, we've experimented enough. What are we truly seeing in terms of roi? And so that needs to be backed up with data. So everybody should be audible ready on the differences between pre AI and post AI and what that sort of agentic improvement or process has actually been able to drive and measure it, really truly measure it. And it's an area that I don't think we're doing as much as we could on in a general. In the industry.
- [34:23]
A
Yeah, even measuring if an ad was created by a human versus an ad created by AI, what's the uplift between both? If this process is created by a human, does this time saving actually the cost cutting actually matter as much as putting in this new. I agree. I think we're not putting in enough effort to. We're just saying use AI because everybody needs to use AI because we're going to get, everybody's job is going to be lost because of AI. Instead of like saying, is AI actually producing revenue or is it just there in the background? I like to also ask everybody in this podcast, what is a marketing hill? You would die on
- [35:07]
B
marketing hill. I would die on. Well, yeah, Look, I actually, you know, I've been in marketing for B2B marketing for A long time and lot of my previous experience has been about brand being a supporting function of the funnel, but demand being the core value. So you know, you almost like have to create pipeline and leads and all of those sort of science to be able to afford the right to do brand. And actually what I completely am convicted in now is that that's a lot of baloney. And actually what you really need to do is invest in brand equity. Because once you have like a lot of brand equity and you're building, that actually helps the performance of the ads, the digital, the field marketing, all of those other channels that get activated and the two need to work hand in hand together. And you can never really truly build long term sustained demand unless you actually have a really solid, very convicted brand ethos. And that in itself I think is something that I've learned very much at Canva that you know, without brand you're really kind of nothing. And it's, it's like a kind of a core truth. But you know, investing in that, it's a hard thing for CFOs to grapple with because they all want this sort of, you know, short term value creation. But it's really, really important and it actually does set all those other channels up for much better success. Like we've tracked that over a five year period and, and what you see is actually the performance marketing or the digital actually compounds over time. And once you have those sort of two things hand in hand. So I sort of see brand as like the investment in the long term demand. And that is something that I don't think any of us should like capitulate on because it's just an incredibly important thing to land.
- [36:58]
A
Yeah, we can always be as marketers capturing demand in the market. Right now it's a losing game. And also every platform is always going to raise costs and the only way to lower cost is by someone knowing who you are. And that lowing cost, even performance marketing, if you have a sales team, are they going to pitch your brand and nobody knows who you are. You already like losing against a brand that they know who is are. So you finding the battle on the sales side, you're finding the battle on the, the ad side. So if someone at least knows somewhat are you what you're trying to do or educate a little bit, it makes an ad so much perform so much better than you trying to, to come at them and say hey, I'm new and you Keep saying, hey, I'm new over and over and try to get those new buyers to come in the funnel later. It's a hard game.
- [37:55]
B
Yeah. And I think it doesn't just happen in digital channels too. I mean, I think in the events and the field marketing and in partners, you know, all of those other channels that you activate for growth, you know, there's nothing better. Like partners want to go work with brands that have got good brand equity in the market. Like they just are more attractive, they feel like they're more innovative. So everything becomes like a lot easier if you are actually known and then there's a whole piece around, you know, how do you become in, you know, get into the category and start like building your brand in a category that then becomes like the next step on, I guess, solidifying your sort of brand presence. But I mean those things are, I think, just not like table stakes for future. In particular, to your point, on sort of AI and the explosion we're seeing with content, we have to find that human element and that usually comes with the brand that we're building.
- [38:47]
A
Lastly, is there anything you want to talk about what you're doing in Canva right now or where people can find you? I want to leave that up to you for the.
- [38:56]
B
Yeah, I would love that. Well, this research that we did, I mentioned the neuroscience research, the state of visual communications, it is incredibly interesting report. We also did it incredibly visually. So I know a lot of folks love that and it's something that I think every marketer should look at because it is a difficult thing to go measure creativity. But we all know as marketers it's incredibly important and it does have a through line into business impact. So definitely check that out. We'll make sure that all the listeners get a copy if they want to. And then we've got a Canva Create event coming up in April 16th in LA. It's our annual community gathering. We have around 5,000 people or so coming. It's such a good show. It's so fun. We have all the latest and greatest from Canva, so definitely check that out and come along if you wish.
- [39:44]
A
Super cool. Yeah, I need him to come out to the CANVA conference. I've heard only good things from people in the market, which is a testament to you and your team for putting on something that people love. So thank you so much for joining and sharing your knowledge and excited to see what Canva is doing next and excited to see the success of the conference. And I'm going to dive into this report after this call and go deeper. Thank you so much.
- [40:11]
B
Appreciate it.
- [40:14]
A
Thanks so much for listening. Keep tuning in to hear more great insights from the coolest marketers from around the world. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe and follow the Marketing Millennials podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcast podcast. And if you like what you hear, I would greatly appreciate you giving us a five star rating. It helps bring more marketers into our community.