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The Marketing Millennials
The Truth About Marketing Ops with Kelly Jo Horton, Head of Lifecycle Marketing Ops at Atlassian | Ep. 374
00:43:46
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- [00:01]
A
If you need a sync, a kickoff call and two slack huddles. Just to clarify, one brief Try Loom. Loom is the AI powered video communication that gets work unstuck. Record your screen, your face, your voice and give people the context they keep booking meetings for. Try it@loom.com that's l o o m.com welcome to the Marketing Millennials, the no BS marketing podcast. I'm Daniel Murray and join me for unfiltered conversations with the brains behind marketing's coolest companies. The one request I tell our guests stories or it didn't happen. Get ready to turn the off. We are back with another episode of the Mark Millennials podcast. I'm here with Kelly Jo, the head of Lifecycle Marketing Ops at Atlassian and we're going to talk about if you don't know, I'm used to be a marketing ops. One of my favorite subjects, marketing ops. But I want to ask Kelly Joe, how did you get into marketing ops? And why would you decide to get into marketing Ops? Because it's.
- [01:15]
B
Does anyone, does anyone really decide to get into.
- [01:18]
A
Nobody decides to get into marketing Ops.
- [01:20]
B
But no, it's usually some sort of weird accident. Right. I was working at a startup that did social media marketing campaigns for B2C basically for music labels, movie studios, gamifying things. And we got acquired by Marketo and so I went from this B2C world of doing all these social media marketing events and things like that and I ended up in consulting at Marketo in this 99% B2B world and just got dropped right in the deep end. And that is how I ended up in marketing operations. Totally by accident.
- [02:08]
A
Yep. That's usually. It's always by accident. I didn't even know what marketing ops was and I was like I want to get into marketing. And I thought I was a part of consultant and I was my first job and I was like what's pardot? What is running a marketing ops system look like? And then I did it for eight years and it was a fun journey. But let's just get into what is marketing ops first. I feel like people need to we need to lay down what is the marketing ops job? What does it look like now? And why do you does a team need a marketing ops squad on a marketing team? Wow.
- [02:45]
B
I think it has changed and evolved so much in the last 10 years. Even in the beginning it was basically everybody thought of marketing operations as email and with the thousands and thousands of platforms that are out there now and AI and everything else Depending on which company you are on, which company you're at, you may have different responsibilities. But it you're basically supporting the structure underneath marketing and sometimes sales and sometimes rev ops, the technology structure, the lead flow, the data. And it has just expanded so much that I feel like our job descriptions are different at every company. Our responsibilities are different, the lines are really blurry. You try to define what a marketing ops person does. It's different at every company. So I think it depends on which organization you sit in and who you report up to, what the breadth of the job is. So it just depends on what company you're in. And there are technical roles, there are strategic roles. It's best if someone in this industry has technology experience, marketing experience, sales experience, go to market experience. If you understand the lead flow from beginning to end, the entire funnel, that's what makes you really valuable in this industry.
- [04:21]
A
I always say that marketing ops is a hard role because you actually have to know what every, everybody on the marketing team does and then also what all your stakeholders does. You don't have really one, you have one specialty in what you do. But the knowledge level is you have to learn, you have to know what demand gen does, what metrics they using, what SEO does. So it's super hard. And then you actually have to know how to deploy systems analytics process to make those people's lives easier. And then you do all on the other hand, no sales, what finance is doing, all these things. So it's such a broad role. It's a broad role. It's crazy how much you have to.
- [05:11]
B
Know as Marco it is, it's like a unicorn role. I mean and you have to be able to be not only technical but customer facing. You have to be able to have conversations at the engineering level, you have to be able to have conversations at the executive level. So it really is, it takes a long time to develop those muscles in this industry. And so when people are starting out, you know, they may start as a campaign operations manager and just building emails, but along the way they're going to learn, you know, what happens down the funnel and how does sales work and how, how does marketing work. So I think starting as a campaign ops person and then learning from there, you can expand. But it's, it's a crazy amount of knowledge that we have to constantly keep up with and learn with new platforms, new technology, AI, every single day I learn something new. And I've been doing this a really long time.
- [06:08]
A
I wanted to go because you were, you have a really good Analogy of like what how to work with marketing ops, what it should look like to work with marketing ops and how people should see marketing ops in an organization. So could you go over what if a marketing leader or a sales leader or a product leader wants to come work with marketing ops. What does it, what does marketing ops, what does it look like to work with marketing ops?
- [06:41]
B
I want to just tell people who have never been in marketing ops before. I know you think that you're ordering fast food, you think you're going through the drive through and you're going to get your meal in five minutes and, and then you get upset when it doesn't come in five minutes. And if you customize that order, it's definitely not coming in five minutes. What you're, what we actually are, I would say is a Michelin star restaurant. We are a team, we are an entire business. And you need to think you don't know what goes on behind the scenes, you don't know what goes on in the kitchen, you don't know what the prep work is, you know, the reservation system, whatever. So I want people to understand that when you ask for is just an email, you need to understand that there is all this structure and logic that we built into that email underneath so that the thing that's supposed to happen when someone fills out a form actually happens. And then that lead gets passed to sales and then it gets routed to the right person and then the lifecycle happens, changes from MEL to MQL to Sal or whatever it is, there is a lot of plumbing that happens underneath that I think people don't realize. So what I would like to say to all the marketers out there, if you've never worked in mops, the way to work best with us is to come with a complete package of your request. And instead of like we were talking about, you know, building a house, instead of telling us you really love this sink and you want to install this sink, you haven't told us what the house looks like or where the bathroom is or what happened. Does the plumbing in place like when I turn on the water, does it work? So I want you to think of the fact that it's not just an email, it is so much more underneath. And so bring work with us like a partner. You're going to come to us with a request. We want you to know exactly what the outcome is that you want so we know what success looks like for your campaign request. So you're going to come to me and say I want to send this Email. And I'm going to ask, okay, what, what does success look like? What do you want that person to do? What's the CTA in that email? And then if it's successful, what do you want to happen to those leads? Like, where do they go? Is sales prepared to talk to these people? Do they have what they need for their talking points or their outreach sequences or whatever it is? Like it's a whole. We are your strategic advisors, we're your partners. We're. We're also your plumbers and your electricians. And we need to build the foundation for whatever you are requesting to work. So just keep that in mind when you send an urgent request. There's a lot of work that goes on in the background that people don't understand. And we just want you to understand that it's not simply creating an email. There's a lot of plumbing that goes into it underneath. And we want you to be successful and we want it all to work the first time. So bring, bring your A game when you send a request to us.
- [10:14]
A
I love that because I do remember when I would get requests for marketing ops and there were 15 in the pipeline and people were like, why did you only get to 5 this week? And then you had to go to explain those five are not just, just send an email. It's set up the logic, make sure it gets tagged correctly, make sure we qa and make sure nothing breaks in the process. Make sure and there 18 different things for that one request that you said. And yeah, yeah, you want to get it out fast. And also when you want to get something out fast, what, what else are you pushing off that list that we needed to do that week too? Because that fast thing, I think that's also gets misconstrued as, okay, you want an email today, we could push things off, but just know that that next thing that you want might not get done because you want this urgent request.
- [11:07]
B
Right? And I think that's why it's really, really important to have structure and process in place. And luckily, since I work at Atlassian, I have all these tools that I can use for free. And I had used JIRA at previous jobs, so I was very familiar with JIRA and Confluence. But I run our team almost like an engineering team. We have Sprint planning, we have tickets, we have an automated system we're building that will allow stakeholders to submit a ticket and if there are any related processes underneath, it will create those other tickets for the other teams that have to be involved. And we have dashboards where we can see exactly what our capacity is for the team, like how many story points we call them. Right. How much time does each person have? And what that does is it allows us to, like you said, when stakeholders request something and we're really busy and their thing is urgent, we have a dashboard we can show them. Okay, here are all the other requests. What would you like us to push off the plate so that we can take your urgent request? So I think it's super important for MOPS teams, if you don't want to just become order takers and you need the data to back up your capacity, you need the data to back up how long it takes to create each of these requests. And you need some sort of tools so that you can report on it and, and show what's going on and stay organized so things don't fall through the cracks. And that's why we this past year moved to Sprints. We had been using jira, but not in any really structured way. So I would say run your team like an engineering team because we all know how interrupt driven this job is and how chaotic it can get. And it's really, really helpful to have everything structured in projects in jira. And that is kind of what keeps us sane most of the time is just having that underlying structure.
- [13:28]
A
I totally agree. I used to do that too and I used to leave those points. We didn't used to call them points, but hours, whatever. Leave a couple hours every week for those urgent requests. So if an urgent request comes, we have those points. I think this is an interesting rabbit hole to go down. Could you explain the, the high level of what you set up and what someone could set up to make a process? Because I think it would work for a lot of different teams of setting this up. Where there's a form submit, there's a what, what does it, what happens after the form submit? What happens next? What happens next? So like, what is like the step by step look like for you to set up with JIRA and Confluence? And what does that look like playing?
- [14:14]
B
So we, we have a very structured JIRA ticketing system. We're even trying to streamline it even more because when I got to Atlassian earlier this year, we have many different ticket types because each team kind of had their own projects. And so they would come in and like the fields weren't the same or some didn't have the sprint field visible or some story point field visible. So what we're trying to do is align everything so that when somebody submits a ticket we also have like a Confluence page where you pick the kind of ticket you want to submit. You click a button, it opens the submission form and it has. I think it's really, really important to have these fields that are mandatory, like you can't submit a ticket until you have the link to the Salesforce campaign that these people are going to go to. You can't submit a ticket if you don't have the link to the asset that you want downloaded. You can't submit a ticket unless you have all your UTM parameters lined up, et cetera. So we have created this form that creates tickets and I think the key is to not allow people to submit a request if they don't have all of the information that you need to build whatever it is they want.
- [15:44]
A
I think that what you just said saves so much time upfront because the problem with a lot of teams is, are these lazy requests you get. And then you have to, as the marketing ops team or the rev ops team, go back and say, I need UTMs, I need to know where it's going, I need this, I need that. And then it looks like you're being the, the bad person and delaying the process and not doing the work. But it really, if you set up a process where they have to do it, that means they have to do some of the lead work upfront and actually understand this is a big deal because if it's actually a priority, you would know you would have these things, things set up if it was actually something you wanted to do. You would fill out the fields, follow the process. Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
- [16:31]
B
I was just going to say it saves a lot of time. You're right. We waste a lot of time with the back and forth if we don't have everything we need. So it's really important to structure your ticketing system to have all the fields that you need for all the data that's required in the right format and all that stuff. So it's really important to structure that up front and train people. Get your stakeholders used to doing that and push back. It's hard to say no. I know mops people are a bunch of people pleasers usually. And it's really hard to say no and send something back, but the more you do that, the more you are getting people used to the process and they'll start following it.
- [17:14]
A
Yeah. So it looks like there's a page, it has a bunch of different links where it could be like, I'm, I need an automation for this, or I need something for this. I'm just saying high level. Then they go. And each link has different form fields because for an email you need these things for this. So after someone submits a form, what does that look like in your. The back end? How, how do you set that up? So is there like approval parts or ticket before it goes to a person or does it auto go to a.
- [17:47]
B
Person or so, yeah, we have, right now we're structured where different types of tickets, some are auto assigned to people depending on what their specialty is, and some are not auto assigned. And we have a triage team that's like a round robin every week. So we have two people on triage every week. And their job, besides their day job of all their other responsibilities, their job is to make sure all the unassigned tickets are assigned to the right people. Because I do have specialists on my team. I have people who focus, who know events really well and all the weird, weirdness of events, you know, and then I have people who, you know, focus on ABM or other things. So the triage team will assign anything that's unassigned every week. We also have a Slack channel that has a bot in it, and so our stakeholders can go into that channel and they can ask a question and the bot will try to answer it. And if it doesn't, it'll open a ticket for them. So we have that as well. And then we also have another Slack channel that shows all the tickets coming in so that we can go to one place and see them too. So it's just a number of things. But the triage idea is fairly new because you don't want your tickets to be dropped and so you need somebody who's on the hook for that week. It's kind of like back in the day in tech support, we used to have the hot phone. And if you carried the hot phone, you were on call. Right. If you were in it or something, you were on call for the week. And we have two people every week who are on call to make sure everything gets assigned to the right person.
- [19:39]
A
Yeah, because the last thing you want to do is lose respect of your system. You set up and you miss a ticket. And then they say, this ticketing process doesn't work, I want to do something else. And then they complain and complain. But I was going to ask you, I know you said the bot, which I think is super smart, which could answer probably, where could I find this? Or this report is here or like it's in here.
- [20:03]
B
Yeah.
- [20:04]
A
What are, what are the things now? Since AI has become a big thing. What are some things you are using or thinking about using in marketing ops to help streamline the process with new AI technology that is out there?
- [20:22]
B
We have access to a lot of approved AI tools and at Atlassian and we're encouraged to create our own agents. We have an agent library so we are figuring out all kinds of ways to use it. I personally love it for looking at data and answering basic questions like people ask us all the time. Why didn't this MQL creating an agent that will go look at the systems and come back with an answer so the person. So that the person doesn't have to DM us but to answer basic questions like that. Why didn't. Why didn't. Yeah, this MQL, which is a very common one, I expected 200 MQLs. Where are they? You know, we have all kinds of little things that can be answered over and over again that we like to use agents for and like the bot in Slack that we can train. So it would be nice. The one thing I would really like to have an agent be able to do is to clean lists before list uploads because it's such a manual process. When we get lists from events from different vendors, they're always structured differently. Even though we have a template, you know, the data might be in the wrong column or whatever. I would love to create an agent. It's on my list. Create an agent to. To look at these lists and clean them. Things like that I think are really valuable for mops like the. What I call the digital janitor. Responsibilities are things that we can automate with AI as long as it's secure, mind you.
- [22:14]
A
Yeah, I agree. I. Because how, like if you think the average MOPS person a day probably gets so many of those questions of hey, where's this report where you look into this lead for me? Could you look into this for me? Hey, this is in the system. Where did it go? Could you direct me to this report? And. And also the less cleaning thing is so annoying because it stops you in your tracks and you have to go clean a whole list just to submit it into. And then people are asking you for that list over and over. And the speed.
- [22:52]
B
Yeah, where is it? Yeah, exactly. It's timing. We also, because we're Atlassian, we have ROVO AI built into everything. Which means that for any agents that use Rovo or even the bottom, it has access to all of our Confluence documentation. So someone could type in, you know, I. We get, you know, new marketers all the time. And we don't have time to train one on one, right? We do. We like the one to many. So we have a lot of Loom videos that are in our Confluence pages and someone could ask Rovo, can you show me the Loom video that shows me the process to do X and they can just go watch the video on their own time. We have a whole library in marketing Ops of all of our documentation and Confluence of recordings of trainings, short Loom videos if someone just wants to know a little thing and they weren't able to attend a meeting. So I mean it's kind of a luxury to have all the tools for free. It's kind of, it's really nice. But we use all of it to help mostly onboard new people in other teams and so that we don't have to answer the same questions over and over again, we will just direct people to a Loom video, a recording, a Confluence page. We have a whole library. So yeah, because we don't have time to do one on one.
- [24:27]
A
Could you explain for people who don't know, like the Atlassian stack of like what are each tool used for in your role? Like if I was a marketing ops and I wanted Confluence, Loom, jira, what would I use each one for and why would I need each one of those tools together?
- [24:49]
B
So, so as a marketing ops person, we use Confluence is like our wiki. It's the repository for all of our documentation for all of our projects. We start Confluence pages for everything and share them across the company or share them just within the team privately. So that is how we document everything. And then Rovo is the AI agent that you can search all of the conf. It searches Jira, Confluence, everything, all the tools. So Rovo is in there to help us find things. We use Jira, like I said, that is our ticketing system and it's customizable, which I really like. I used to be a Jira admin at another company, so it's. I've been a Jira fan for a long time, but it's customizable to fit how you work. Like what fields you want to show what your workflow is like. You could put in approvals from different teams and things like that. That's why I really like it. It's so flexible so that we can change how it works ourselves. So we use that. We use Loom a lot because like I said, we don't have, we have hundreds of stakeholders. We can't do one on ones with people, we need them to self serve. And the best way to do that is for us to create Loom videos to show them how to do something. So you have process documentation. If you're not somebody who learns that way. We have Loom videos. I'm a document person, but people like videos. So we use Loom and we have recordings of our calls and we use all kinds of features in JIRA for planning for plans in there. There's just, I mean everything is all tied together, which makes it great. And it's all searchable with Rovo. So I can search for anything in any of our tools and find it with Rovo. Otherwise you'd be sifting through, you know, we have, we're a big company, I don't know how many people, 12,000 or something globally or more than that. And so it'd be really hard to find things if you didn't have a really smart search engine.
- [27:07]
A
Campaign planning in multiple docs, approvals buried in someone's inbox. You don't have to be in marketing ops to feel this pain. Wrangle this chaos with loom, the AI powered video messaging that gets teams aligned without another quick sync. Use it to walk through a brief or share feedback using your screen, your voice and your annotation. Loom's AI even tidies the video for you with summaries, chapters and filler word cleanup. Try it@loom.com that's L-O-O-M.com. yeah, I just remember starting in marking ops at the beginning where there's either documentation, limited documentation, or it takes an hour to find everything and then you still get this documentation but you don't really understand what it means. So then you have to go to ask and ask. But if you have like Loom for visual learners who could say, to create this, you click this button and this button and then there's also a transcript. So if you don't want to, you could go and you. And now with AI, you could just be like, hey, find this video. And yeah, could you diagnose the steps for me to be able to do this? And IT can give you step by step, which is makes. Which I thought for me was the hardest part. One of the most annoying parts of marketing offices, creating all this documentation. But now with tools like this, I know it is.
- [28:33]
B
We all do it though. It's really, I mean, in the end, you know, I've worked in IT before and I think I learned and tech support and I learned a lot from working in an IT organization of how well everything is documented. They keep change logs, you know, they have stand ups. Everything is really buttoned up if you're in it. And so I tend to bring that skill set when I manage MOPS teams. Because we need structure or it's chaos all the time. Right. With all the requests coming in and all the stakeholders we serve, you've got to have structure and you have to almost think like an IT person to keep everything in line or people just get burnt out.
- [29:19]
A
Yeah, I think any size like where the you need this foundation. I think I've been burned by not having the foundation of like setting up documentation early setting up ticketing systems early setting up. Because then you get to you in any job you teach people how to treat you. So if you teach them early how to treat you as a MOPS team it saves you so much time.
- [29:45]
B
This is what I tell people who work for for me, any teams I've ever managed, I said I will be the bad cop if you want, but I want you all to learn how to say no in the most respectful way and tell someone why you're saying no. Don't just do something because someone asked, ask why. This is what I'm trying to teach people is to ask why. When you get a request, if you think there's a better way to do something, ask why and tell them I think I have a better way to do this. I think this would work better. But don't just because if you just take orders, you become an order taker, you're seen as an order taker and people will treat you like they're in the drive through line at a fast food restaurant. If you serve them a five course Michelin star meal, they're going to understand how to work with you better. They're going to come back and really respect what you do. And that's. I know a lot of MOPS people really feel like the job isn't respected because people don't understand it. And I totally get that. And I try. That's one thing I try to do at every company I've ever been at is to make sure that the role is respected and that people understand really how much we know how hard it is and understand what goes on behind the scenes.
- [31:13]
A
I do like that analogy because you have to stand up and show that you are the expert in this. Not that you are just someone who. Anything that goes goes. Because when you fight back and say no or there's a better way or this doesn't work with our system, it proves that you are the expert in in in this field and people will trust you more. You don't want to be that one person that people always DM behind the back doors to say could you please set up this email for me or because you become that person and then you could complain as much as you want. But I've seen I've had this that the marketing officers you said earlier the people pleaser and you that's how you get burnt out. That's how you stop liking what you do is because you become this order taken say no or don't have a ticketing system to show hey, these are my ticket. This is all my tickets for the week. This is priority. Do you want to kick this off or do you not want to do this? Do you not want to do that? So I think what you just said is crucial for any marketing ops person to if you're starting in this role or a leader in this role to have that ability to do that.
- [32:30]
B
Absolutely.
- [32:31]
A
I want to also ask you like what what should the modern day setup of mops look like because it's changed so much in the last and over the years. So what did like could you explain what it looked like and so people know and what it it's transitioned to now over the last few years.
- [32:55]
B
It is definitely not a one size fits all and it depends on your go to market the size of your company. And B2C tools can be very different than what works for B2B so it's really different. There is no one setup that works the same for every company. I think a lot of times that we don't have control over the organization we sit in which is difficult if you are sitting. I'll tell you what my my preferred organization structure is and I've only had this once is to have a centralized demand center or whatever you want to call it that's responsible where where the tools are centralized, the expertise is centralized and it does not report up to a demand gen leader or a Revops leader or anything like that. Because as soon as you report up to let's say demand gen, guess what your priorities are? Marketing. If you report up to Revops, if that's a sales leader, your priorities become sales and marketing gets second. So I prefer to have I think the most successful organization. I mean if you're big enough to have an organization mind you, there are a lot of people who are a team of one doing everything. If you are big enough and mature enough to have an organization, that organization should be independent of influence for priorities from any of the other teams. I think so because otherwise it just becomes favoritism and the prioritization gets really, really difficult. We also have an agency partner because we just have too much work. So there's a lot of basic email building that we push off to an agency partner and we QA everything they do but they do a lot of the building for some of the basic stuff. So having an extension like that allows you to flex if, especially if you have a cyclical business where it gets really busy at certain times of year and you can't grow and shrink a full time team. So I would say I think because of all of the stakeholders and tools and everything we support, it's going to work better if it's an independent organization where the, the brain trust is centralized, the tools are centralized and you can actually be the hub in this hub and spoke model and serve everyone equally and prioritize things by what affects revenue instead of what affects somebody's mood depending on who you report to. My priorities should always be what is going to affect revenue that the most and go from there. And that's but that, that won't happen if you're sitting in an organization where you're beholden to one organization. That's why I prefer an independent team structure.
- [36:20]
A
No, I, I, I've, I've reported into both. I've reported into marketing and I've retorted to repops and I was my own rev ops person and it's so much better where you can be separated and there's no. The bias level is not.
- [36:36]
B
Yeah.
- [36:37]
A
High and you can, you could and when you, when revenue is a priority you make the decisions of prioritization based on what are the business goals. How are we going to achieve the business goals, not just the marketing goals? Because sometimes the marketing goals are in some orgs are 20% of revenue. So some is 80% of revenue, some are 30. It depends. And like sales could have like 70% but if you're only prioritizing like 3% of revenue, you're not making as big as an impact as you can. So yeah. Last question I want to ask you is what is a marketing hill you would die on?
- [37:25]
B
Wow. What is it this year? AI isn't going to solve all your problems. That's one of them. And the other one is I never thought I would say this but I think the MQL is dead. And I say that because in my experience I have been on the buying end of many tools and I really watch how companies approach me and sell me things and, and I watch how good some people are at identifying the buying groups, identifying, you know, who's, who's, who writes the checks, who are the influencers, who makes the decisions. I really look at how companies do that well and I think that the individual in at least in like let's say SaaS software business where you do have a buying group or a complex sales cycle, this isn't true for everybody. But if you have a complex sales cycle, the MQL is dead because you need to identify the entire buying group and you're not selling to one person, you're selling to a group of people. Maybe it's a division of a company, maybe it's just a smaller group, but that's it. I mean the, we need to get away from getting like looking at marketing influence by one person at a time and looking at the buying group and how many other people influenced. Even if that's not the person that sales is talking to, they are part of the buying group. And so for marketing to get credit we have to, we have to move away from looking at individuals and we have to start looking at buying groups. And I know lots of companies are already doing this.
- [39:22]
A
I also think it's a, it's a very lazy metric to be honest with you, because it one, it could be easily influenced. You could pull different levers that as a marketing leader to get that the right person in doesn't mean they're, they're a great buyer, but you can get someone to fit the exact criteria to be an mql. That's why you always should as a marketing team. Like revenue pipeline, like qualified pipeline is way better to look at as. Cause I've seen MQL numbers go down but revenue go up and people are still worrying about that MQL number rather than worrying about like are we getting the revenue?
- [40:08]
B
Yeah, hasn't it. It's always been kind of a vanity metric. Right. You can create more MQLs, but that doesn't have anything to do with corporate quality or qualification. So you know, I think if your sales team is using something like Medpic, where they have to identify, you know, all these different people in an account, that is helpful if, if marketing understands that so that they know they have to deliver the right Persona. Because also like for our tools especially there are different buyers for each tool. It's not always the same. It's not always a developer. It could be a marketer, it could be an HR person. So you have to know who your buying group is for each tool. And what you're selling, you have to identify those Personas and that's how you want to create this qualified buying group instead of a qualified person.
- [41:07]
A
I like that. And I also think if marketing is doing their job right, it really skips the MQL stage completely. Like, because you're right. Yeah. If you're doing your job right, you've like educated the buyer, you've, they, they've raised their hand to, to make a buying choice or like their end of the research process. That should really better. As a marketer, I get a lot of your job, most of your job is to create demand, not just like capture the existing demand in the market that people are looking for. And that's a harder job as a market is to create it. But yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Where could people find you, what you're doing, all that good stuff.
- [41:56]
B
Oh, boy. I'm really active on LinkedIn, so feel free to connect with me. Me there. Yeah, I've always respond to people. I, you know, if somebody wants to, you know, have a quick session on how to get into mops or how to get into, you know, go up the chain. Some people have this dream of being a cmo. Some people have a dream of being a CTO or a CRO. How, how do you do that? You know, I'm willing to have conversations with people. I've mentored a lot of people and, you know, if I have time, I will definitely talk to you. So you can always reach out to me on LinkedIn.
- [42:36]
A
Well, thank you so much for coming on and I really appreciate it.
- [42:39]
B
Thank you.
- [42:41]
A
Thanks so much for listening. Keep tuning in to hear more great insights from the coolest marketers from around the world. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe and follow the Marketing Millennials podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. And if you like what you hear, I would greatly appreciate you giving us a five star rating. It helps bring more marketers into our community.