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The Marketing Millennials
Why Messaging Falls Flat (And How to Fix It) with Emma Stratton, Founder of Punchy | Ep. 341
00:34:11
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- [00:01]
A
Hey, besties. Welcome back to another episode of the Marketing Millennials. I'm Tamara Gorminski and I'm stepping in as your guest host while Daniel's out on paternity leave. I'm a career product marketing leader and the former VP of PMM at high growth startups like Kajabi and Unbounce. Now I'm the founder of PMM Camp, a community and newsletter for product marketing leaders. And while Daniel's off doing dad things, I'll be here bringing you fun conversations with some of the smartest marketers I know. Today I'm joined by Emma Stratton, messaging expert and founder of Punchy, a consulting and training firm that helps tech companies like Loom, Miro and Uber win on positioning and messaging. She's also the author of one of my favorite marketing books, Make It Punchy. In this episode, Emma and I chat about how to write messaging that connects with real humans. We break down why most messaging falls flat and the difference between leading with features versus leading with value. We'll also talk about Emma's barbecue test, one of my favorite mental models, how to kill jargon before it kills your message, and what it really takes to evolve from marketer to founder.
- [01:02]
B
Welcome to the Marketing Millennials, the no BS Marketing podcast. I'm Daniel Murray and join me for unfiltered conversations with the brains behind marketing's coolest companies. The one request I tell our guests stories or it didn't happen. Get ready to turn the.
- [01:28]
A
Emma, welcome to the show.
- [01:30]
C
Thank you for having me, Tamara. So fun to be here.
- [01:33]
A
So fun. I always love chatting with you and we have a lot to chat about when it comes down to messaging, as you know, big fan of you and the book, have it here alongside me. But I think more than anyone else I know you have seen more messaging in the wild and I want to know, kind of kick things off today by understanding like, what do you think is the biggest reason why messaging falls flat?
- [01:56]
C
Yeah, I mean in our industry, right? Tech, I would say the number one reason messaging falls flat is because it's too inward facing, it's too focused on the product, the technology, and not enough on why a buyer or a prospect should care. And so in doing so, the messaging is complicated and it's not interesting, so it just doesn't land because it's not what they want to know. And if it seems really basic, like of course your messaging should speak to what people care about, but believe it or not, that is not always the case. And so I still see this all the time in tech across industries. As you know, the number one reason messaging falls flat.
- [02:38]
A
Do you think it's because people don't know what their customers or prospects care about? Or do you think they do know they just don't want to write messaging that way?
- [02:49]
C
Hmm, probably both. Right? I mean, there's definitely companies that maybe are still learning about what their customers want, maybe aren't sure. And a lot of companies do know what their customers want on one hand, but then there's always that desire to talk about your product and you're like, oh, this is coming and this is going to be on the roadmap and this is our vision and it's so exciting. And so rather than talking about the boring, maybe somewhat basic things that your customers want, you start talking about all the whiz bang, fancy techy things that are happening and you're like 10 years ahead of where your customers are. Right. Like tech companies, we're always revisionary. We're looking into the future and your customers are often five, 10 years. I mean, depending what industry could be like 15 years behind you. So that's something I see all the time too. Just the messaging is far too advanced for the audience.
- [03:53]
A
Yeah, it's like your customer or the prospect is trying to solve a problem today and they actually probably don't care about how the problem gets solved. They just want to know first that you can help them solve that problem.
- [04:02]
C
Right, Absolutely. Yeah, totally.
- [04:05]
A
So one of the things that you talk about in your book is the VBF model, which is the value proposition benefit feature. And you contrast it to what I think you're kind of hinting at here, which is fantastic. Which basically means most people start by promoting and talking about the feature and you're kind of recommending to talk more about the value first. So can you break that down for us and just explain why does that order actually matter? It's like to some people, they might look at it and be like, it's all the same ingredients anyways.
- [04:34]
C
Yeah, absolutely. So VBF is another way to think about VBF is outside in messaging. So maybe you've heard that this idea of messaging that's inside out versus outside in. So inside out messaging is really common. It's one of those reasons it often falls flat with people is that it leads with what's on the inside of the product. So it's all about the product and that's where it all starts. And maybe eventually you'll get to benefits and eventually you'll tie it back to a value. So that's inside out messaging. And the reason that doesn't work is the people who you're messaging to, they're not experts like you are. They don't like know as much as you know. So they can't just dive straight into the feature. They don't really know what it's going to do for them, what problems it's going to solve, how it's going to kind of change their workflow or whatever. They don't know. And it puts all the burden on them to kind of figure it out. Like you should figure out how this real time analytics is going to change your life. So that's the problem with inside out messaging. And outside in messaging leads with what matters to your buyer rather than what matters to you when you're thinking about your product. And so you're talking about in the first instance, you know, why should they care? Why does this matter to them? And that's the lead in. And once they get interested with why they should care, then eventually you can get to, you know, the benefits and the features. So it's about leading with what matters to your buyer with VBF rather than leading with what you're most excited about your product, which is kind of that fbv. And so I saw this problem so much in tech that I came up with VBF as just a simple way to almost even help people become aware of the fact that they are leading with features and not leading with what matters to their customer. And it's really resonated with people because I think it just simply helps you have a gauge, like, are we talking to our customers and what they care about or are we just talking about ourselves? So that's how VBF came into the world one day when I came up with it. The idea is that you start with a value and I think of a value like the big win. Your customer's going to get the big win. Then next comes the benefit. The benefit is the new superpower your customer is going to have thanks to your product or feature. Think about what new thing are they going to be able to do then. The feature is the secret weapon of your product. And so it's a way of breaking that down, brainstorming those elements and then coming up with a message that leads with the value.
- [07:17]
A
I mean, it makes total sense to me, but I know I'm a product marketer, so I've been trained to think this way. And I think you are right when you say I don't think it's intentional that people have these big Egos. And they're like, I just want to talk about myself. I just think when we think about the different roles in a company, we have our own biases. Like if you're on the product team, you're just all day in the weeds with the product. That is how you're thinking. And then when you're a marketing team, often let's extract product marketing from that marketing team. You're often telling a bigger story and sometimes you actually are missing the gaps of can our product actually help that? That's what I love about product marketing, is that it kind of solves for both of those. Curious. If you have an example. I know I'm putting you on the spot here, but an example to kind of help clarify this. I think I've heard you give the Star wars example maybe one time. It doesn't have to be a tech example, but something that's going to help bring people along with this analogy.
- [08:09]
C
Yeah. So let me just explain. I'll do my Star wars thing because let's first explain feature, benefit and value. So these three things often can get mixed up. I've found that people will call a benefit a feature or value benefit. Yeah. And I think kind of the semantics is part of what makes it so hard. So I just like to define it. So let's start with a feature. So a feature is something special your product does or has. And I said think of it like a secret weapon. So my Star wars example is the Force is like a feature. So the Force is like this powerful energy field that binds the galaxy together. And if you've watched Star wars, you know that the Force is frigging awesome and you would like to have the Force. But if you have never seen Star wars, my explanation about it being this powerful energy field is really underwhelming. You're probably not that impressed with the Force. And that's what happens when you kind of just say a feature. Like I keep saying, like real time. I don't know why real time analytics are on my. It's the customer I'm working with right now. But it's like, you know, self serve, real time analytics. It's like great, you know, so that's the feature. So features on their own don't really mean a lot until you get to the benefit. So a benefit is new things your customer can do or be thanks to your product. And I think of them like a superpower. So if we go on with Star wars, if we think about Luke Skywalker, the Force actually gives him all kinds of New abilities. He can do crazy backflips and he can change people's minds, and he can fly a plane upside down with his eyes closed. And these are all examples of benefits of the Force. They're cool new things that Luke Skywalker can do thanks to the Force. And now that I've explained all these cool things that Luke Skywalker can do, now you're like, huh, the Force actually sounds pretty cool. You know, I wouldn't mind having a little bit of the Force myself. And that's what's great about benefits. They really bring to life what a product or a feature can do and why it's great. The next piece is value proposition. So in Star Wars, Luke Skywalker has a larger goal. He actually wants to defeat Darth Vader, bring peace to the galaxy. And all of his backflips and changing people's minds and flying planes are really all in service of this greater goal. And that's what value propositions are all about. It's about connecting the dots between a product or a feature to meaningful value. So I always say, like, if Luke Skywalker had to go to his boss and get sign off for 5,000 seats of the Force, he couldn't just be like, hey, it'll help you fly a plane with your eyes shut and do backflips, right? He'd have to say, hey, this is actually going to help us defeat Darth Vader and bring peace to the galaxy. And that's why we have value propositions. So features, benefits, value with my silly example. So let's do another silly example for how it works with vbf. And this is from my book, so you know this one. So say we're talking about a fancy blender like a Vitamix or something. And the feature is commercial grade blades. So that's my secret weapon. They're very sharp and powerful. So that's my commercial grade blades. And that gives me a superpower of being able to like quickly make smoothies, you know, in a snap. Like I can make a healthy smoothie in a snap. That's my new superpower that I have thanks to this, these blades. And the big win that I get for that is eating healthier every day. So features commercial grade blades. Benefit is being able to quickly make smoothies in a snap. And the value is being able to eat healthy every day. So if I had a message that headline would be eat healthier every day, then it would say, quickly make smoothies in a snap. Thanks to our commercial grade blades. Now if we did the reverse the inside out, the fbv. My headline would be commercial grade blades. And then it would be like, okay, you can make smoothies in a snap so that you can be healthier every day. So the values at the end and the headline, which is, let's face it, what 80% of people are actually reading and that's. It. Is just saying commercial grade blades. So am I more interested in eat healthy every day or commercial grade blades? So that's a silly example of FBV versus vbf.
- [12:36]
A
No, I think it's great because sometimes when we're in our heads about the industries we're in, we can't actually see the framework. And so that's why I loved the Star wars example. And I think the blender example is great as well. Now, typically when I'm talking to marketers or I'm seeing people engage with your framework, everyone's bought into this point and then they're like, but who am I writing the value for? And so, as you know, there's often tension between writing for the champion, writing for the buyer, writing for the end user. Maybe it's a super complicated deal and there's like seven people in the buying committee. In your opinion, when you're writing messaging, who should you be writing for?
- [13:13]
C
Yeah, it is a complicated one because. And it really depends on your industry and the way your group is. But typically I always say kind of go for the champion, which is sometimes the buyer, you know. So, yeah, it's the person who is most motivated to get this through. Like the one who, like, this is their. Their. This is their gig, right? They're. They're bringing this on. So a lot of people often say, oh, but, you know, it's the CEO that signs off, should we be talking to CEO? And it's like, no, CEO isn't reading all the websites and looking all the different products. They've asked someone else to do that. So don't write for the CEO. Sometimes people say, well, it is very important. If it says no, then we don't get through. Should we talk to the director of it? And it's a platform or a product that has nothing to do with it. It's like, no, don't make everything just for the IT director. And there may be different places where you can have specific messages for specific people as needed. But generally, I think you want to focus on the person who is most. I keep saying motivated. There's a word I've got summer brain, but there's like a word I'm looking for someone who's most bought in into the process. That's the person you want to talk to. They're the ones that are like talking internally, selling internally. So you want to kind of speak to them. But one thing I have found, I mean, depending on the product, sometimes you do want to speak to the user. When you're trying to help people understand what this product is and what it can do, sometimes it can be helpful to speak to the user, even though someone at the director level or VP might be buying. So I always think when you're not sure who matters most, who is going to be most bought into the process and really pushing you through. And also we're trying to help people. So who needs to understand this? So those are kind of questions that I tend to ask folks. It's not easy, it's not cut and dry. But that's what I would kind of suggest to folks who are struggling with it right now.
- [15:31]
A
I think that makes sense. And I think if we think about application of messaging, most of us would think about the homepage or certainly a website. And in that case you're 100% right. And you know, if we don't have that initial message right, how can we start to cascade the messages? And so when I think about it as well, I start where you're recommending we start. And then I always ask myself, like, how does my message need to evolve or adapt based on who else might be brought into the conversation? And maybe it is more technical or maybe it is more business focused or whatever. It might more value focused if it's just about pricing at some point, if there's an economic buyer. But I do think all of those are hard to get right if you don't have that initial kind of champion messaging. Right first.
- [16:12]
C
Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's a great point.
- [16:15]
A
So one of the ways I also see messaging fall flat or go wrong. And this is not just a B2B thing. It's shocking how often this happens in B2C and consumer as well is like, it's just super overcomplicated. Right. So one of your sayings, I think like the first thing I heard of yours that I was like, I'm going to like this girl was say it like you would at a barbecue.
- [16:35]
C
That's right. That's right.
- [16:38]
A
First of all, I want to hear the story behind that. Like, how do you remember when you first started using that phrase? Like, where did it even come from?
- [16:46]
C
You know, it's so funny. I don't. I actually do not remember that one. It's like, it's always been here. Like, I can't. I actually can't. So many things. I can remember the first, but I don't remember when I came up with that. It was probably, like, four or five years ago. No idea.
- [17:02]
A
I'm sorry I came to you in a dream.
- [17:04]
C
That's been a great story. I know. It's just like. Yeah. Came down from the heavens. Yeah. It's like it's always been with me, I think. I think my style and my vibe has always been casual and real and down to earth. And I think I probably just grabbed the metaphor one day and just, you know, just ran with it.
- [17:24]
A
Okay, so for people who have absolutely no idea what we're talking about, like.
- [17:27]
C
What are they talking about?
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A
Why don't you break down what you even mean by this and how we can apply it?
- [17:34]
C
Yeah. I think one challenge that we have in B2B is that a lot of our writing is stiff and formal and corporate, sometimes dry. And we use these funny big words that we would never use in real life. In conversation, they're almost like B2B words. Or there might be industry words. Like, we add shun. We turn everything into a noun, you know, and we add shun at the end. So I don't know. I think it started with, like, we want to sound professional and smart. And then everyone just. I think we all. It's reinforced. Everyone's doing it, so we do it. But it's really hard for readers. Long sentences, these strange, strange things that we say in B2B. It's not that people aren't smart enough to understand it, but it takes work. It's kind of like wading through mud, reading these sentences with all this kind of corporate language. And I often find that marketers feel like they have to write that way. Like, it's not naturally how they'd want to, but they feel like they have to. Maybe it's pressure or expectation. And so I always say, just make it more casual, more conversational. So it's not about dumbing things down, but it's about using casual phrasing, something that you might actually say rather than these strange things that we write. So I always say, okay, you've said, like, scalable, strategic solution. Great. Imagine you're at a barbecue talking to a smart friend. How would you explain what you mean by this? Scalable strategic solution? And instantly people are like, oh, I just would say. And they say something very simple. There's something about that mental model of giving them permission to be like, okay, let's just get casual. Like, let's take off the tie. What are you saying? And people come up with really nice, simple language on their own. So it just. It works really well. So I always say, whenever I see, like, a really kind of jargony statement or something that doesn't make a lot of sense, I ask the person, okay, how would you say that at a barbecue? And then it makes them think, and then they always end up saying something really simple and clear. And then I say, write that instead. It's so clear. It's so easy to understand. It's definitely a technique that I think helps people. And you can get really quick results from it, too. We train this team. I do messaging training for marketing teams, and we had this one team that had a particularly jargony culture, and they did the training and then they did the barbecue on all of their social campaigns that were going at the moment. And they saw, like, a measurable lift across all of them when they did that. It's so simple. So say it like you would at the barbecue. Just make, you know, see if you can make it more casual. Casual phrasing.
- [20:24]
A
I love that. And I think. I don't remember if you had influenced me to do this or if it was someone else, but one of the things I will often do when I'm doing any kind of writing is I actually will say it out loud.
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C
Oh, yeah.
- [20:35]
A
Because when we're writing things, it's like, it's just in our head. And then you start to say it even to yourself in an empty room, and you're like, that was weird. Or you see where you stumble, and it becomes very obvious where something doesn't sound natural. So that's always my hot tip, too.
- [20:51]
C
That's a great one. I think that my theory is all this weird stuff that we type. Okay, like this phrase. I came across this at training, and it was value orchestration. It's like, come on, when would you ever say value orchestration ever? And we just slap these words together. And so I think when we type, it just kind of bypasses, like, our conscious mind. It just goes straight through, and our fingers just start typing this stuff, you know, it's like, very reflexive. So you have to kind of stop yourself and think and kind of break the habit. But once you do, it becomes second nature.
- [21:27]
A
Yeah, totally. One of the things you talk about a lot, both in the book and at the talks I've seen you give, is creating human messaging. So messaging that resonates with human. And I think we would be remiss not to talk about AI at least some part in today's conversation. I'm just curious to see from your perspective as someone who specializes in messaging, specializes in training humans to write messaging, what do you see as the role of AI?
- [21:54]
C
Yeah, I mean, so full disclosure, I'm a Luddite, I work in tech, but I love my analog life and so that is how I am. I am not a heavy user of AI. However, I also do not have to put out tons of content. I think if I did have to put out a lot of content each week, I would be a heavy user of AI. But I have, you know, I do use it a bit and what I like it for is like a thought partner. You're getting stuck in something or getting some ideas to start. But so, but me, I kind of don't like anything it writes, so I'm usually disappointed. I'm like, you know, yeah, no, I'm the same way.
- [22:43]
A
Like, I love it as a thought partner. I love it as like a business strategist. Even for product strategy, I like it. It's quite good. I don't mind it from a competitive perspective, like help me see some messaging angles that maybe I can take versus this. But every single time I have tried to use it to write, like actually produce good copy, whether it's short form like a LinkedIn post or a blog post or anything like, yeah, I just feel like it doesn't sound like me. And I've tried so many different techniques and even now like when I'll read other People's newsletters or LinkedIn content or Instagram content, I immediately feel it when it's not human. Like there's these little sayings and it's very off putting to me.
- [23:26]
C
Yeah, you can see it. And yeah, that kind of AI personality, it's there. So I'm not a big user of it, but when I do use it, I just approach it the same way I do when I give feedback to my own writers. So I used to be head of a copy department for several companies and of course I have my own writers. And so I'm always giving feedback and seeing revisions and, and so I treat it like that. I see it. It's the same as a writer, but my writers are, I think better than AI. But I think the most important thing with AI though, and this is what I have, is to know what good looks like. I think if you don't know what good looks like and you just go in there and you're like, gah. Give me some headlines. You're like, great, These are awesome. Because at first glance, yeah, they look good, right? I think at first glance you're like, oh, yeah, snappy, punchy, it looks good. And then you kind of. But maybe it's not quite right. That's not quite what you're supposed to be talking about or it's not right? There's a strategic element to messaging. Are you talking about the right thing? Is it in the right way? So I think it's so important to know what good looks like. To know, be very clear on what the message or the headline, the copy is supposed to be about. And so that has that foundation. And then, sure, you can let AI just do a million revisions until you like what you see, but that's the most important thing. And I think that's the thing I'm worried about going away is like, how do you know what good looks like if we only use AI and you never wrote? Because I know what's good, because I write. So that's an existential question among many that I have no same.
- [25:06]
A
I heard someone describe ChatGPT as an eager intern, and I thought that was such a great description of it because it is. And it's kind of what you're saying too. It's like you're going to be impressed at first. The first week that intern is there, right. They're going to produce so much stuff. It's going to be so, so quick. You're going to, wow, this is amazing. I didn't have to do it myself, but then when you spend just 10 minutes going a level deeper, you're going to realize, oh, that intern, they don't actually know what that word means or they actually don't understand because they've been in this business for a week, not 10 years, and it is that same mindset. And so I think there is. To your point around training, I think it's like we shouldn't not use it, but we need to almost manage it the same way you would manage an intern, right?
- [25:45]
C
Exactly. I really do think of it like a copywriter. Like, this is my tireless copywriter and I can give it endless revisions. It won't get mad at me. That's great, but it's the same thing. You have to keep saying, no, do it this way. Change that. Da, da, da. So knowing what good looks like and also being very clear about what the strategy is behind the message and what are you focusing on, those are the things that I just want to make sure people still have that in mind. And then, yeah, go nuts with AI with that foundation.
- [26:14]
A
Yeah, I think that makes sense. You hinted at it just briefly now, but you were, you know, in house, managing teams and writing. And now obviously you run your own company. And I'm sure that comes with a whole new set of challenges. So I'd love to just talk briefly about, you know, what that evolution has looked like for, for you. What was the biggest shift that you had to make from going from being a marketer to being an entrepreneur?
- [26:38]
C
Oh, gosh, so many. It's so hard to think of, to think of one. But I think the one that I think is really common is leaving the employee mindset and adopting the business owner mindset, the entrepreneurial one, and figuring out how do I want to work and taking on all these new aspects of running a business. Right. You're not just an individual contributor manager, you're now like, you're an accountant, you're a project manager, you're all these things. So I think just changing that mindset. I would say the big thing really for me was just believing in myself that I can do this. Because once you kind of step out on your own, you get this feeling of like, oh, it's on me. I'm not just gonna get a paycheck, like I have to generate the paycheck. And that kind of pushes you, it forces you to believe in yourself a bit. You have to, or else, you know, you're gonna have a breakdown. You know, you have to believe in yourself. So I don't know if that's a good answer. You know, it was messy. It was messy. It was really messy.
- [27:52]
A
Honest answer.
- [27:53]
C
Yeah, it was messy.
- [27:54]
A
The reason I want to ask is because I think more in the last 12 months than I've ever seen in my career as a marketer is marketers are leaving their full time jobs to become entrepreneurs. And maybe they're not calling themselves entrepreneurs. Maybe they're saying, I'm a fractional marketer now, or I'm a fractional CMO or I do marketing consulting, but I've never seen it at the rate that I have. And part of that is I think people are more aware of the lifestyles they want to create. Part of it is, of course, a result of some of the instability and the layoffs. But I think we often don't think enough about how big of a change that is. And I think it really is a personal shift rather than a professional shift. Right. It's all about kind of overcoming your own mind.
- [28:37]
C
Yes. I mean, I thought I was good. I thought I was like, yeah, I'm pretty good. And then I started my own business and I'm like, I'm a mess. Like, I have all these messed up beliefs about myself and I have all these fears and I address all them. And, you know, you and I had had many fun conversations about these, but entrepreneurship pushes you. Like, personal development just goes hand in hand with entrepreneurship. It's. It forces you to face things and it brings up issues that you must deal with that maybe you were able to kind of put to the side when you were employed, but suddenly it's all on you, right? So things come up and then you have to deal with them. But on the flip side, you know, I would never have wanted any other way. Like, I never would have grown that way if I hadn't started my own business. And so if anyone's listening and thinking, I'd love to go out on my own, but I'm terrified. You can do it, you know, and you don't have to just take a leap off a cliff. Like, there's, you know, there's conservative, there's safe ways that you can make steps towards that, but you can do it and you'll learn things about yourself that are really amazing. So I love that.
- [29:44]
A
So inspirational. We're almost at time and we like to end every episode of the Marketing Millennials with one final question, which is, Emma, what is one marketing hill you would die on?
- [29:57]
C
There is no messaging in the world that is so good that it will cover up a flawed or non existent strategy.
- [30:05]
A
Ooh, tell me more about that. What would you define as a flawed strategy?
- [30:10]
C
Well, and maybe this happens more with startups, but not being aligned on who our target customer is, or not being aligned on our positioning, trying to be everything, kind of those typical flaws that we see so you can have that bubbling around and then it's like, okay, write awesome messaging. That's going to solve all of our problems and sell, make us sell a lot of things. And I always say that messaging is a manifestation of a strategy. So if the strategy is kind of unclear and wishy washy, then the messaging becomes wishy washy. But everyone loves to attack the messaging and be like, oh, Chase's headline. Like, why isn't this good? And it's really because of what's behind it a lot of times. But people don't see that. So that's, you know, strategy first, messaging second. And make sure you have that strategy buttoned up before you expect messaging to be amazing.
- [31:04]
A
I actually love that so much. And it's actually one of the reasons why when I was working full time in tech, I went the C level route to chief strategy Officer rather than chief marketing officer because I was like, I will never be effective at marketing this thing and owning marketing if I don't work somewhere where the strategy is completely buttoned up. And so I definitely share that philosophy.
- [31:24]
C
Yeah. Awesome.
- [31:25]
A
Amazing. Okay, well, thank you so much for joining us. Where can people go to learn more about you? Maybe learn more about your book?
- [31:31]
C
I think the best place is really my book. If you have any interest in writing, messaging, check out my book, make it Punchy. That's right. Available wherever books are sold online. And I'm on LinkedIn a lot so you can follow me there. Emma Stratton and I'm also unchie co if you're interested in trading.
- [31:49]
A
Amazing. Thanks so much for joining us today.
- [31:51]
C
Thank you for having me, Tamara.
- [31:54]
B
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