← The Marketing Millennials
The Marketing Millennials
Why Out-of-Home Is the Most Underrated Channel in Marketing with Olivia Oshry, CMO of OAAA | Ep. 409
00:53:35
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- [00:01]
A
Pop quiz.
- [00:02]
B
Where do all your tasks live right now? If you don't have one answer, that's a red flag and a sign you need Wrike. Wrike is an intelligent work management platform that kills the friction, killing your speed. Visit wrike.com TMM to see what I mean. Welcome to the Marketing Millennials, the no BS Marketing podcast. I'm Daniel Murray and join me for unfil filtered conversations with the brains behind marketing's coolest companies. The one request I tell our guests stories or it didn't happen. Get ready to turn the up. We are back with another episode of the Marking Millennials podcast. I am here with Olivia. We're going to talk about a channel that has probably been around longer than most channels out out there and. But it's ha. It's still growing and it's still having a renaissance and I think people are still underutilizing this channel, I would say. And I mean, there are companies that don't underutilize it. Like, you'll, you'll know, like injury attorneys and stuff like that. But there are a lot of tech brands that are in the space that are starting to come on to this channel. But I'll let Olivia introduce herself and give her a background and then we'll and how she got into marketing and then we'll get into the episode today.
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A
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here. It's so funny. Like, how did I get into marketing? I've only like, ever been in marketing, you know, and it sort of at the same time, like, fell into my lap a little bit because I went to NYU for undergrad. And I always say that NYU is a really tough place to go to school when you don't know what you want to when you grow up. Because everybody there is, like, so committed and so driven. They have so many, like, specialty programs for, you know, you're in the Stern School of Business if you want to do business. If you want to do acting, you're in Tisch. I actually was like a history major, like more on the pre law track. I thought I was going to be a lawyer. I took the LSAT twice. I got the same score both times. And I thought to myself, oh, I'm not really, like, improving here. I don't think that this is for me. But one thing that people told me was that I should get some real work experience before I decided to stay in school a little bit longer. And so I actually started interning at AOL America Online. At the time, they had just acquired like a Huffington Post, TechCrunch, Engadget. It was a lot of premium publishers at the time. But then also they were building sort of a digital ad tech stack. And I worked on the marketing team and I worked on the marketing team there for almost eight years, years. And the second I got there, from the second I got there, I knew, oh, I want to, I want to pursue this full time. I want this to be, you know, what my career is in and I want to stay here after I graduate. And I sort of have pretty much had every type of marketing role that you can have since then. Predominant focus on like B2B and advertiser marketing. But I've also dabbled a lot on the consumer side, of course, on the brand side. And you know, at the same time, I shouldn't be surprised that this is where I've ended up because I've always been like a very brand centric person. Like, I love brands, I love marketing. I. I'm very like, I'm obsessed anytime somebody like does a rebrand or like, I've always just been really super into that. I remember being a kid and like watching super bowl ads, like before YouTube even existed. Like, how could you find them on the Internet type of thing? And that Britney Spears one, Pepsi, was my favorite. And I would just watch it over and over and over. So it's like, yeah, I've always been into marketing. Of course, this is how I sort of ended up.
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B
So I have a question for you. So you came through companies that were, I would say digitally first companies and now, I mean, you made a bet to go to a medium that isn't really. I mean, it's coming up on the digital side. So you made a bet to go into billboards. Why did you feel so strongly for that channel?
- [04:18]
A
Such a good question and one that I get asked a lot because I did spend most of my career thus far on the digital advertising side in between AOL and where I am now at the oaa, which I'm super excited to get into. I worked at a tech startup called Flowcode, which was a QR code company that was really started right, you know, sort of quasi pre pandemic, but really took off because of the pandemic and just like the need for contactless connection. And a lot of what we focused on there was how do we help DTC brands like scale offline by trying to think about how they could potentially get similar metrics to digital metrics in the offline world by leveraging things like QR on print, on out of home on tv. So I started to dabble in the offline media space. And quite frankly, you know, I grew up also in New York City, which is just like, you know, the, the epicenter of incredible out of home. I've always loved billboards. I've always been somebody that has like really been aware of like the, the branded world around me as I sort of like experience life. So when this opportunity came across my desk, it was really like a no brainer for me. One, because I love the medium. Two, because I had sort of already been dabbling in the space and I also, you know, as a brand centric person and I saw the way that digital advertising, especially like social ads were really moving to like, you know, ugly ads perform. And it's just like, wasn't for me. I was like, oh, that's like, had a visceral reaction to that sometimes. And I was like, why not like think about how to do like big, beautiful, creative, like in the real world. I also feel like people were sort of post pandemic wanting to like experience even more, you know, out in the real world as well. So it was a combination of a lot of things. Plus the team there. I had known some folks for quite some time and like the leadership is just really strong. So it was like good people, a medium. I loved the opportunity for just, you know, real growth. And I think that that like the combination of that all together was just like really enticing for me to sort of like pivot from a very digital centric advertising role to something that, you know, to your point, you know, over 30% of out of home right now is, is digital out of home. So there is a digital trajectory, but you know, it's, it's really the combination of both.
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B
One sign that I think out of home is a big deal and a so and, and technically like an organic driver too is watching the billboards at Coachella this weekend and seeing Haley Bieber reposting the Yahoo, the Yahoo billboard, all these artists doing some funny plays as you drive into the desert. Because if people don't know, unless you fly into Palm Springs, it's a two hour drive from LA or San Diego or Laguna to drive. And I just saw tons of artists, brands, people just posting billboards on their feed. And I thought that was like, okay, if you could do something creative like that. It has that digital. Because nobody's screenshotting a Facebook ad and putting it on their story. Nobody's doing that.
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A
But you know what's really interesting. There's so many different layers to what you were saying, and I wholeheartedly agree with all of them. The first is the Yahoo thing, which is that's not. That's a mockup. Right. And so if you. You're thinking about Yahoo as a brand doing a mock up of a billboard on Social that's getting reshared by Hailey Bieber, like, that just goes to the essence of how powerful the medium is that it's not even an actual billboard, it's just a mock up of a billboard. And Cracker Barrel did the same thing actually, when they reversed their brand. They put an image of their old logo on a mocked up billboard, posted it on Social, and they're like, we've heard the feedback. So, you know, you have this medium that is sort of the symbol of trust and the symbol of visibility and the. The symbol of something that, you know, when people see it, they instantly know. You know, they instantly have, I think, a really positive feeling around it also. They just have a connection with it as well. So I love the Yahoo example because first of all, that wasn't even a real billboard, number one. They're just leveraging it for Social and is amplified in so many different ways. Two, your point is exactly spot on. I mean, the road to Coachella is just like an unbelievable display of incredible out of home. And I think just, you know, further proves the power of the medium because, you know, it's not that it just lives there in the desert for only the people that are headed to Coachella to see. Like, it is so amplified across so many different channels. And I think, you know, that's another thing that really makes the medium so special is just its ability to interact so well with other media. Like, it doesn't just live in a silo. The whole goal of it is to really be like this sort of connection piece in the middle of your media mix, to sort of connect to social and, you know, to any of your other digital experiences, potentially, of course, even TV or ctv. So, you know, I just think it's so cool to see and I love that there's like certain times of year where people, you know, really give out of home its shine and its moment that it deserves. So, yeah, this is a cool time of year for us.
- [09:34]
B
Yeah, I think. I mean, it's an incredible local channel too. And I. People don't think about local as hard as other people.
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A
People.
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B
I mean, I grew, I lived in LA for eight years and you would see all like the local billboards of Trying to get there to be considered for like Emmys and Oscars and so. But I want to go into. You recently got promoted to cmo. How are you trying to change this perception for people to invest in this channel? I, I think there's still, I mean some, there are brands that get, get it and know that as a channel, but there's lot of brands that still are. I'd rather just go run meta ads. I'd rather run Google Ads. It's measurable, it's this, it's that I can't measure out of Home. So how do you change the perception?
- [10:25]
A
Yeah, no, it's a great question. And you know, OAA is the trade association representing the entire out of home industry and we are celebrating 135 years this year. So for 135 years this organization has solely been dedicated to protecting, promoting and advancing the out of home industry. And from a marketing perspective, I view my role like having like two very clear goals. Which is one, how do we better engage the broader advertising community to ensure that out of home is an essential part of the conversation, is an essential part of people's media mix? You know, the work that we do around that can be anything from showing up in all the places where, you know, big advertisers and all the agency executives are places like, you know, Cannes lion and Advertising Week and CES and then also, you know, putting my vertical hat on and making sure that like across the category that are really doubling down in ad spend and in out of home specifically, you know, that we're making sure that we develop those relationships, that there's always an out of home conversation to be had. It's really just like inserting ourselves in there as much as humanly possible. That's one piece of it. The other piece of it is really just on developing those relationships with brands and agencies. We have a brand council, we have an agency council. We do a ton of events, whether they're local, sort of discover out of home days in specific markets. We also put on our annual conference which is coming up next month, which is pretty much the largest out of home gathering in the world. But my goal with that event is also to ensure that it's not just out of home people in the room talking to out of home people. Right. Like how do we bring a broader advertising mix into our mix to ensure that out of home isn't just sort of this siloed media channel and is an add on to some plans, I think to the point that you were talking about before with Coachella, when we sit sort of in the center of a. Of a larger plan, you can see it work just infinitely better, right? So, you know, from a marketing perspective, it's really about evangelizing the medium, building the relationships with the right folks to ensure that conversations are being had in the right place. And just, I think, you know, one thing that we can even do a better job as an industry is sort of like touting a lot of our success and a lot of our wins. I think, you know, things like Coachella or obviously this is a very big year for advertising in general, but specifically out of home because of things like FIFA World cup, there's obviously super bowl, there's sort of these moments a couple times a year, and especially this year, it's also an election year, right? Like a lot. You're going to see a lot of political out of home ads as well, or get out the vote ads. So, you know, there's sort of these like, you know, peaks in the year that essentially I think really remind marketers that, oh, this is a channel that really works. This is a channel that is stood the test of time. This is a channel in, you know, undergoing transformation and innovation. And I think the more that we're super vocal about it, which is what I feel like is the essence of my job, the more you sort of open people's eyes to like, all the different things that the medium can do, whether that's programmatically or, you know, like, there's just so much innovation and transformation happening.
- [13:36]
B
So what's really cool, I think about out of home and you're saying this, I mean, last year it was $9.46 billion channel and it's had 19 quarters of consecutive growth. So at what point does out of home start becoming like, stop becoming like a comeback story and becoming like a maturer channel in the mix? Because I feel like it is still at this, like, okay, you've seen more big advertisers go into this channel because we'll talk about later, but you calling it the, the human median as well. So at what point do we start saying, I know for some brands I would say it is a mature channel, but I know you said that, but how do you. How does it stop becoming this like, comeback story channel, by the way?
- [14:26]
A
I think that's a really good question. I will say, like, in my two and a half years, like being in the out of home space, I personally have experienced, I feel like a fundamental difference in the way that marketers and the broader advertising industry interact or wants to interact with me from like two plus years ago until now. So I think you're sort of already starting to see that change for sure. I think on the flip side of it too, and this is why, you know, from a vertical perspective, that we, especially for this year, are focusing on a couple of very strategic verticals. Because I think if we can prove out tremendous success in some of these areas that get a ton of attention, it will sort of open up the floodgates to everybody else as well. But I think, listen, at the end of the day, we sort of live in an environment and in a society where everybody's sort of chasing the shiny object all the time. And like, you know, there's aspects of out of home that it's not the shiny object because it's a 200 year old medium. Right. Like something 200 plus years old is not necessarily gonna feel new and shiny all the time. Right. But I think that's where some of that innovation, transformation, programmatic development, digital development, and sort of the general digitization of the medium. The more that that happens at SC scale and the more I think, you know, bigger conversations we have, the more, I mean, listen, take somebody like Alex Earl and what she just did to launch real actives where like the billboard that she had in New York City with the puzzle pieces was like an essential part of the launch, right. Like, I, I don't know if something like that would have happened three, four years ago. Right. It's like you sort of are starting to see this turn happen and that's why there's a lot of amazing examples that we can talk about right now of just interesting things that are happening in our space. Because like the tide, the tide has turned, but it's like, it's also at the same time still turning. So I hope that we get to a place in the next. You know, I don't want to even say years, I think shorter than years where it's like we're not talking about this comeback story or you know, like a renaissance for out of home, but more just like sort of the, the fundamental essential nature of it for any brand that is looking to, you know, build a meaningful connection with the consumer, tell a, a visual and like very powerful story. And at the same time there's also that both sides of it, you hit upon it earlier, which I think is so true. It's like you can be a big, you know, advertiser, like an Apple or a Verizon with, you know, just like a big brand awareness campaign, or you can Be a local advertiser and leveraging out of home directionally or you know, like Cracker Barrel does that. They're obviously a big national brand that uses it from a local perspective. There's just a never ending amount of things that you can do. So I think the more we tell those stories in those anecdotes and show them off, I think the more that they'll just become ubiquitous.
- [17:21]
B
Yeah, I mean a great example of a brand that does very good local is Buc Ees in, in Texas as you drive and there's a bunch of billboard saying like you're close like 101 miles to this and you can get this at Buc EE's and this like funny things at Buc EE's and bathroom. But it's like the whole drive you just reminded them that you can go to a Buc EE's and that's great example.
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A
And when you're ready for it, like it's like was right there at the top of your mind.
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B
I wanted to ask you because I think if I'm not mistaken, digital out of home advertising is now a third of the revenue of all out of home. Where does that ceiling sit comparatively to just like regular out of home advertising? Because digital, the cool thing about digital is you can run a spot for an hour or you can run a spot for three weeks if you really want to, and you could run it. I see a lot of like when SaaS brands now during conferences, they run quick digital out of home targeted at like San Francisco or Boston or something to get quick advertising. So where do you see the seething of digital auto home versus traditional Idaho?
- [18:37]
A
Yeah, I mean I don't necessarily know if there's a ceiling per se because the more signs that are digitized, the more opportunity there is. So you know, obviously there's like hundreds of thousands of different signs and formats across the US and the more that those transition from static to digital, the more opportunity there is for digital. So it's kind of a really super exciting thing because there's not really. There's. There's. I don't think there really is a ceiling on it. There's also so many different types of formats within the out of home ecosystem that are digital as well. Obviously like cinema is a piece of that too. Right. And like that's sort of, you know, when you think about out of home, a lot of people just think about billboards. So they're just thinking about digital billboards. But there are so many different signs. Of course there's transit and street furniture, there's airports. So the digitization of, of any sign in the US like, to me that ceiling really doesn't exist. Or it's exciting that it feels like it could be potentially infinite because we're sort of just underway in terms of the digitization of the entire medium, which is many, many different formats in our overall ecosystem.
- [19:50]
B
I know we're in the age of AI now and I think billboards are in the real world. They're not on your screens that you pass it driving to work, you pass it walking, you see a, a bus or a car or have these digital. You go into grocery stores, you see digital. I mean, out of home advertising. I want to go into your positioning of this and the thought behind it. And what are you trying to get with calling it the human medium?
- [20:21]
A
Yeah, no, thank you for asking that question because since I joined OAA two plus years ago, we've sort of been endeavoring on this positioning work. And I think a lot of it stemmed from the fact that, you know, as an industry, out of home is so many different things. And there are, I mean, Listen, just the OAA has 850 members, right? So it's not like when you're going up against search, you're really going up against Google. There's not like one. You know, we are a conglomerate of a lot of different amazing out of home companies. And you know, at the end of the day, the importance of us being unified as an industry, aligned on our talking points, aligned on our core value proposition in terms of like, what makes the medium great and a worthwhile buy. I mean, the reality is, and I'm not just saying this because I work in the out of home space, but there's, I mean, there's probably like dozens and any different company could have, could, could, could put together, you know, their own set of, you know, core beliefs as to why, you know, out of home is, you know, a worthwhile media buy. And I think, you know, what we wanted to do was sort of sit down and pull all of that together in a way that any of our members and really anybody in the advertising industry could really just like come to an understanding of like, what really makes this medium so special in sort of a singular way, which again is a very daunting task and it was a massive undertaking just because, you know, I wanted to ensure that it didn't. There wasn't like a reductive element to it too, because there just is so much positive things to say about the medium. But that being said, you know, we spent a lot of time talking to brands, to agencies, to technology providers, of course, to out of home media people, you know, just really getting a lay of the land of just how they view the medium. I think also the gap that we were trying to solve between, like, how out of home people view the medium themselves versus how buyers view the medium was just another, like, area to solve for here. But, you know, at the end of the day, a lot of this sort of, like, real world notion and the, the really deliberate, like, impact and connection, it just kept coming up over and over and over, of course. And I think, you know, in a very AI centric world that we live in. And listen, I love AI. I think AI is. Well, I shouldn't say I love AI. I think AI makes people's lives a lot easier. I think it's an amazing enabler and I think it helps people. I. I'm not one of these people that thinks that, like, AI is going to take everybody's job. I think AI is going to make everybody better at their jobs. And I think, like, that's where I say I love it, because at the,
- [22:57]
B
you have to, you have to tell AI you love it. Just in case there's a chance to come through you. Yeah. Just in case AI does take over the world. You. You were spoken on a podcast.
- [23:08]
A
Yeah, Just reference this podcast. No, that's exactly right. But, you know, at the end of the day, especially, because, you know, think about, like, during the pandemic times too, which, like, I always hate, like, bringing up the pandemic, but, like, we have to be real about the fact that, like, digital consumption skyrocketed. People got really used to, like, just doom scrolling, being algorithmically driven, finding, discovering new products. Like, everything was so digital, mobile, centric. And I think, like, what we're seeing now is sort of this visceral reaction to people just wanting to be, like, out in the world and living their lives again. You know, I remember even, like, pre pandemic, there were so many studies that came out that were talking about millennials. And this is the Marketing Millennials podcast, so it's relevant. But, you know, people were talking about how, how much millennials loved experiences, right? And I still think, like, that's still innate with, like, this whole cohort of a generation. They just had to take a few years off because of, like, the state of the world. And so everybody's coming back with a vengeance, essentially. And so when you think about all of these things together, where people, like, want to be out there in the world. But like, we live in a very sort of like, tech immersed, like, digital centric world. And you don't know, like the things on your phone, if it's real, if it's fake, if it's an AI video, like, you know, you just want to exist a little bit. And I think, like, that's sort of all of those pieces as we put that together to really just land on, like, out of Home is the human medium and it's for humans, right? Like, you know, that a human being with real eyes is going to see your message out in the real world. And I think, you know, there are other channels that do have issues with that, just if we're being frank, right? And so I think playing to our strengths, but also playing to that sort of like, emotional connection, you know, there's a lot of aspects about humanity in general that I think also lend really well to out of Home too. Like, we think a lot about and we've talked a lot about on this podcast about it, you know, how out of Home works better in concert with other media. Right? So too, like, other human beings need other humans. Like, people function better, you know, when they're in a community or, you know, when they're around and surrounded by others. So there's just a lot of things in terms of like personifying the medium with really human qualities, but also the essence of the human being being the one that is, you know, really being targeted and really the person where these messages are being delivered to sort of all came together and we just thought it was a really beautiful way to start talking about the medium in a way that could exist, you know, well into the future.
- [25:49]
B
I think that what you said about the real life thing, making an Avengers, because this is. I used to go to Coachella, like 2014, 2015, 2016, and I played. I till now, I saw people going, but I never really saw like the hype that this Coachella brought versus like the last 10 years. And I think it was all bring back, like to 2016 vibes, 2016 headliners, like 2016 music, all millennial stuff that they. That was what Coachella was. And that's what I think that like this Coachella with ticket prices being so crazy. It was Never like that 10 years, 10 years ago, it was like that getting a Coachella ticket, you would. It would sell out and you would have to go in the market, sell it in an hour. And in the market last 10 years, you could buy it on the site till a week before it happened in this year. But I wanted to go into one thing, I think based on all the billboards you've seen and you've seen a lot, how could brands win on this channel? What is some tactical things that if a brand wanted to enter the space, how could they make their billboard actually produce, let's say brand awareness or on the other side, actual conversions to site?
- [27:06]
A
Yeah, that's a great question. And by the way, speaking of 2016, it just got me thinking about how that whole social media trend of everybody posting where they were in there is this return to a different time, but a previous time. And I do think that our medium is benefiting a lot from that. You know, when it comes to out of Home, or really when it comes to any media, I always say, like, what is your KPI and what is your call to action? I think a lot of times people put a message on a billboard and they were like, well, did it work? And it's like, well, did you? What did you want to happen? Right? And they can't really ascertain, you know, sort of like what the proof of performance or what the metrics were that they were actually looking for. And I think, you know, we talked a lot about on this podcast as well, that there's just so many different, different formats of out of Home. And I think, you know, you could leverage it from a proximity standpoint, you could leverage it from a big brand awareness campaign standpoint. You could have an amazing, you know, discount or offer. You could build out a unique landing page. Like you could partner with a creator who shares it on social, like, what are you trying to do? And I think a lot of times people just sort of slap a message on a sign and they're like, we did out of home, but we don't know how it performed. And I would say some of the rigor that brands really do apply to other channels, I think that sometimes that does get a little bit lost with out of Home, just because some brands are potentially viewing it as sort of an add on to a campaign. So I would say being really upfront about, like, what are you trying to get out of this? How are you using this particular sign, what's the message for this sign? And then going from there, Because I think you do see, you see a lot of brands use it in a lot of different ways, but the ones that keep coming back to the medium have cracked the code for themselves essentially. Right? And I think that's because they have really strong KPIs and they have a really strong call to action and they Know exactly what they're using, which sign to do what for. And so I think if you're strategic about out of home and your plan up front, you will, you'll have the same results.
- [29:16]
B
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- [31:38]
A
play by the way, and that is something that I actually super love about the medium is that if you phone it in, people are going to know you phoned it in. Right. I Do think that there's a little bit of an intimidation factor with the medium? A little bit. Especially from a creative perspective, because you are on full display. It's not with social media where someone is just going to scroll past and it's not going to. They are going to see it and they are going to evaluate it and they are going to think about it. And you know, the OAA has an award show called the Obies. They're now in their 84th year. And it's like, yes, of course, there's a lot of, like the big national brands that spend millions of dollars, but there's also local brands that win as well because, like, the creative is so strong and so unique and so really makes you think. And I think that to your point, I totally agree on a creative and brand renaissance. I think there's a lot of expectation these days just because, you know, the reality is a lot of people have a lot of skills now because of social media, right? Like they can teach themselves how to design and they, there's things, there's amazing tools like Canva, where everybody essentially is a little bit of a designer. So people go out in the world and they're sort of, you know, I don't, I'm not using the word judge in a negative way, but like they are reviewing what they are seeing and they are assessing it. And so I do think, like there is, there, there, there is a little bit of a higher expectation for out of home. And I, I just think that that is too the absolute strength of the medium.
- [33:05]
B
I also think just like CTV and tv, I think since it's an older channel, I think it gives you more, it makes you seem like a bigger brand than you really are, even if you aren't a bigger brand. And I think that's, that's, that's one thing I think about it when I think of when, but also I think now more than ever is when you're doing a digital audible. Like, don't think of it as a one way to just that as your amplification. I would make it so good that you want to run a Facebook ad promoting that like as a, as an ad on meta. You want to screenshot it and put it as an organic social post. You want to put it in an email campaign. So it has that. I think that if you're doing out of home, you also got to think of it as an omnichannel play where how could I use this creative on multiple channels to get the best bang on my butt? Because sometimes that is the benefit of out of home is taking that New York Times Square screenshot, putting it on social. It's that I'm taking it in a beautiful location, screenshot, social. And then sometimes you. It's such a good creative that you want to promote it on multiple channels. And I think, think also people don't think of that when they're. They're putting out an out of Boom campaign.
- [34:27]
A
I absolutely agree. I do think that, you know, that's why we always talk about it out of home being just like an amazing amplifier of other channels. But, like, if you can get the creative right on out of home, it sort of makes your job easier on every other channel because it definitely is the hardest medium to design for. But if you can get a message that you are trying to deliver succinctly, uniquely, creatively, like into that sign, then you can just take that and run with it everywhere else. And I, I can guarantee and will promise it will make the rest of your campaign that much better.
- [35:01]
B
Since we're talking about millennials, and I want to talk about Gen Z in this channel too, but I, I mean, millennials grew up mostly online. How is out of home resonating with them differently than they resonated with their parents or the generation before? Like, how is it. Is there a way to render. Is there a difference between generations?
- [35:23]
A
Yeah, I love that question. I think there definitely is a difference with generations. I think, you know, I think about myself as a millennial, and maybe my experience is a little unique because I, like, grew up on America Online and then I went to go work there for almost a decade. But, you know, like, I feel like there was an element of, like, human discovery online for millennials when they first got on the Internet. And, you know, the Gen Z, I think you're sort seeing a little bit of a reaction to being so algorithmically driven, where you're being like, I don't say force fed in a negative way, but, you know, you are being shoved content that, you know, the algorithm thinks that you will like or that you've previously engaged with, instead of you as a human being potentially discovering something really on your own. And I think that's where out of home is really special because, like, not only are you able to discover things on your own, you're able to discover them in the real world and not just on your mobile device. So I think we as millennials, and the way that, like our. Yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly. We grew up on the Internet, but we grew up in a Very different Internet that exists today, where it's not like the echo chamber essentially, that we live in now. It really is like you were sort. Everybody was doing their own thing on the Internet back in the day. Right. And I think that is sort of a little bit of what you're seeing in terms of how people react to messages in the real world. Because, like you, we could be in the same environment. Maybe we're both at Coachella, we're going to see different brand experiences, and we're both going to react totally differently to them. And I think, you know, on the flip side of it, too, speaking of a place like Coachella, you can't forget the experiential aspect of it too. Like, experiential and the amounts of money that brands are spending in experiential now. You know, just, let's talk about another comeback or bounce back. It's tremendous. And it is a form of out of home as well. So it's like all the ways that, you know, human beings are discovering and interacting with brands in the real world, sort of innate to the millennial experience, just in a little bit of a different environment. I don't know if you feel the same way as a millennial, but I feel like for me, like, I love to, like, like when I see something on, even when I see something on the Internet too. But just generally, if I see something on tv, like, I'm the type of person, if I'm watching a documentary, I'm researching it on my phone at the same time, you know, like, I like to discover information, but like, more on my own terms, I think, than sort of how. How this, you know, these next generations have grown up, which is just like sort of like being given information and being told sort of what to do with it versus, like, you know, being more of that discoverer. And I think that's the difference.
- [38:01]
B
And I also think, like what you just said, when people think of these channels, there's always been. And through all life, there's always been a distraction happening. Like, people say they don't want to go and see TV because your phones. But back in the day, you would just turn and talk to your family while an ad goes on. I mean, that was the old. Like, there was more of that. Like, you. You had a neck to turn your head when an ad comes on. It's like. Like there's these excuses made at China, but I think at brands today, since there's so many ads going out and there's more ads than ever going out in the World, the distractions are there. But if you could be in more places where, where you get eyeballs and on places where there's less distraction. When you're on your computer or your phone, you have so many more distractions than I'm driving in a car and the only distraction is other cars and there's an ad right there. You're not looking on your phone. That's right. Or I'm walking on a street. The only distraction are other people, maybe things going around, but it's right in front of your face and yeah, it might not be.
- [39:10]
A
I also think our attention, though, is less as a society though, just because we're used to like literally. Literally. You know, we always say with out of home, it's like, you know, just really have to capture somebody's attention between like three to seven seconds. Like you don't even get half a second on social media these days too. Right. Like, so I just think it's also the attention span of some of, you know, essentially how people are being wired now just because of the use of technology and like how that changes when they get into different environments. And I think, listen, if you have a great ad, no matter where it is, like, you will capture somebody's attention whether they're on their phone, whether they're having a conversation, whether they're running for a bathroom break. Right. Like if, if something piques their interest, like they're going to pay attention. And I think that gets back to your point on just the creative renaissance, like, no matter where the good creative is, I think you can really capture somebody's attention. I just think some environments, moments like ours are a little bit easier than others.
- [40:09]
B
Yeah. And I think, I think people mistake attention for impression, and that's the problem. Like you.
- [40:15]
A
Yeah.
- [40:16]
B
Just because you're getting impression doesn't mean you're getting intention.
- [40:19]
A
I agree. Yep.
- [40:20]
B
And that's the problem with a lot of these channels is like, okay, you're getting a million impressions, but how much of the, how much attention are those impressions are you getting? And that's the real question. I mean, you, you could see it on some hyped, but it doesn't mean that you're actually getting good attention from those ads as you put out.
- [40:38]
A
I think the other thing too is, you know, when I left AOL and a lot of the time I spent working with DTC brands, and I know that you probably have a lot of familiarity with this as well, you know, they were just so hyper focused on performance and all of the metrics that they were getting from all the big channels. And you know, I think we've sort of come to realize that like, maybe a lot of that wasn't so real and like, like how much of that was fraud and bing bang boom, right? Like we could go down that whole path. And I think there's sort of, you know, marketers today having a little bit of a, you know, counter reaction to that where it's like the balance between awareness and performance. Like, everybody went so far into the performance bucket before realizing that some of it probably actually wasn't as truthful or as real or as, you know, viable as the metric showed. And sort of the pendulum is swinging a bit back, back to be a healthy balance between awareness and performance. And I think a channel like ours really allows people to do that in a very, in a very beautiful way because to the point earlier, like, you can use different signs to drive different messages to deliver different outcomes. And I think having that balance is really important today. You know, in the past, I think a lot of DTC brands in particular went into the offline world or invested in out of home just so people would think, think that, would think that they were real brands, right? Like, it's not an Instagram brand. Like, this is a real legitimate brand. You're going to order something from this company and you're actually going to receive it. Right. Like, we sort of lived in a little bit of a time where people like, were even unsure with respect to some of the brands that they were engaging with and interacting with on the Internet if they were even real. They came to out of home to prove their realness. Right. And I think that's just like another incredible attribute of the medium where it's like, goes back to that sort of like trust and viability factor. But I do think that like, we sort of are living in this world now. And I, I hear it and I see it from a lot of brands where it's like the healthy balance between both performance and awareness and having a full funnel strategy is like, those are the brands that are successful. And a medium like out of home, it like serves various but really important aspects in that, by the way, so do all other channels. But everything has to sort of have a role and its place. And I think we really leans a little too far in sort of that like, performance only bucket that I think, think that's, that's sort of also what is sort of part of what's rising the out of home tide, essentially.
- [43:07]
B
I also truly believe that people are mistaken of like performance Marketing a little bit because I think these branded brand first channels, I would say that been known as brand are really performance channels. But for your bottom line, like nine months or six months down the line, like you're, you're betting that, that I want to stay relevant 612 and I need to have a brand when that happens because as you spend more on performance the bucket starts shrinking because you, you, you already captured this your early adopters and then you have to go to the next bucket which is even harder than the next bucket. That's really harder. But if you building brand and you becoming that cooler company or that better company or it's seen as like the more the, the, the, the brand that people want to be, it's, it makes performance marketing way easier. And that's the problem. I want to ask you this because I ask everybody in this podcast, but what is a marketing hill you would die on?
- [44:08]
A
Ooh, wow. What a good question. I think just exactly what you're saying, like brand matters. Like it really does. I sometimes I as a human being like can be like so nitpicky on some things. Whether that's like creatively or design wise, whether I am a consumer of the brand, whether it's a brand that I'm working on or a project I'm involved in. I just, I think sometimes people get like a little lazy when it comes to brand and they don't realize how important it is. You know, I've watched a couple of interviews with the founder of Poppy. She talks a lot about like the importance of brand and how that was essential. Even know in addition to having a great product and all the like having a great product is really important too, don't get me wrong. But I do think like brand really really, really, really, really, really matters and it's never not going to matter. And that is a hill I'm willing to die on.
- [45:02]
B
It's never because at some point you, you're spending a commodity to a commodity that has no emotional value to a. That person and that's.
- [45:12]
A
I also think investing in brand is never going to be like a worthless investment investment, you know, even if like you get it wrong, like, and maybe you'll waste money for sure in terms of getting to a proper outcome. But investing in your brand, whether that is like the packaging, the tagline, the messaging, the look and feel, your website, like just the whole ecosystem around your brand, like it, it just does, it really does matter. And I think especially you know, as, as people like we are all very like subjective beings but People like, like to look at things that are visually appealing. People want, you know, how are you going to otherwise capture somebody's attention on shelf if not for a great and interesting brand with color and pop and pizzazz? Like, I don't know, I just, if something catches my eye, I'm like, why is this catching my eye? It's because, oh, like somebody really spent time investing in the brand of it all. And to me, that always captures my attention. And I'm always like, anytime a brand that I love does a rebrand, I'm like, I'm. I sit with it. I'm like, awesome. I'm so happy they spent time doing this. This is amazing. So for me, I love brand.
- [46:23]
B
Yeah. I think people forget that that is the foundation for everything you do where even performance marketing, you have to have those values that, that tag, that messaging, the, that positioning that. And brand is not just that I'm going to put a house at Coachella or I'm going to like, I'm going to do these like fancy campaigns. It's. No, it's like that foundation of packaging, positioning. How are we going to show, like, how we, how do we want to show up? Like what, like, what do we want to like, message to the world? I think people forget that's a foundation and they think of brand as I'm spending money to put my name out there. But that's not, that's not brand. That's. There's a difference between like branding and brand. I think that's agreed.
- [47:15]
A
And. But I will say, like, if you have a shitty product, like, oh, shitty product could take you.
- [47:20]
B
Yeah.
- [47:20]
A
But I agree, it's like, if you really are investing in like how your product comes to life in a way that is meaningful and makes sense and you put a concerted effort into it. I just think the payoff on that is like exponential.
- [47:35]
B
Agreed. Lastly, where could people find you or what you're doing with billboards or this conference that's going on?
- [47:44]
A
Yeah. Well, you can follow us and all things that we're doing@the OAA O Triple A.org and our social is at your O triple A. And that's oa. It stands for the out of Home Advertising association of America. And our conference is upcoming. It is May 11th through 13th in Dallas. Obviously, the theme of our conference this year is the human medium, which we touched upon. We do this conference every year around the May timeframe. As mentioned, it is the largest out of home gathering really in the world. To your point earlier on, injury attorneys, you will be excited to know that John Morgan from Morgan and Morgan is one of our keynote speakers this year. They are the number two out of home spender in the country. We also have Emma Greed joining us as a keynote speaker. A bunch of great brands, agency folks, a lot of out of home folks, folks, just really important conversations on everything from programmatic out of home AI sports. We have the Dallas Cowboys joining us as well as the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders. I mean, it's going to be a great time. So anybody that's even remotely interested in out of home, I highly recommend coming and checking out the conference. But if there's ever any resources, questions, anything that people need with respect to the out of home world, OAA can be your guiding source. So please get in touch with much.
- [49:05]
B
Yeah, and I, I truly believe that. I truly believe it's a channel that you should be testing into if you're not. And I do think it's a channel that has RI that explodes more than just putting a billboard out and space. Like, I, I do believe in the omnichannel play. I do believe that you have to be everywhere. I do believe that top of mind wins in marketing and the best way to stay top mine in the real world, not on the digital world. It's out of home. So. So.
- [49:36]
A
Well, you know what's so funny is like when we were doing some of the positioning work and like, I'm a person, like, I love, I love an acronym, like I love letters. And I was thinking about like the O and out of home. And I was like, you know, we put the O in omnichannel. Like, just funny things I was like thinking about and whatnot. But actually that's how I got to like the human component. And I was like, okay, if O is for omnichannel optimized, there's like so many great O words in the marketing ecosystem. I'm like, what's 8H? Like H is super weird ladder. Like, what? And I was like, oh my God. H is for humans. And like, honestly, like, and sometimes like, that's just how all these different pieces come together. But you know, I totally agree with your point on Omni Channel. And we think about that a lot with respect to, you know, the medium in general. Like, it just, it just functions so much better when it is just part of a complete strategy instead of either being siloed or as an add on. And I think if that's one takeaway that anybody has listening to this podcast, it's like, test it. And I'm not saying don't continue to do the other things that you're doing. I'm saying test it in conjunction with the things that you're already doing and I guarantee you're going to see a lot of success.
- [50:42]
B
Yeah, I never, it's, it's crazy because whenever people say I, when I like a channel, I always say like, nobody says stop running meta ads and they do perform. Nobody's saying stop running Google. There are some things you probably are doing wrong on those channels that could take some budget and put them in a towards the channels like out of Home Digital, out of home ctv, the channels that are not those channels. But I do think that don't stop running med ads if they're working. So I don't stop. But there's probably something. Sometimes you also have to update your measurement and attribution system because that's screwing up that too. So.
- [51:26]
A
Well, I was just gonna say that. I mean, we had the AI conversation. I do think, like, especially from a search perspective, like this whole SEO versus aeo, like a lot of channels are changing regardless, right? So if we're thinking about marketing holistically and you're thinking about incorporating out of home, you're probably also thinking about like the updates and sort of evolving the way you operate other channels as well. So I think it's very much like an influx point for marketers as well in terms of thinking about how they holistically view their entire marketing strategy. Because I'm not making a recommendation to include more out of home. You know, the reality is, is that you're probably rethinking a lot of the things that you're doing.
- [52:03]
B
I, I 100 agree and thank you so much for coming on. And I do think, thank you for having me. I do think people should go check out this channel. And I'm just not saying that because Olivia is on this pod, because I'm actually thinking that I, I'm seeing better and better out of home out there. And I do think that if I'm noticing out of Home more as a consumer, I think that, that it's becoming more of a channel because I do think I'm noticing it more than Facebook ads and a good out of Home campaign. So thank you so much.
- [52:33]
A
Thank you.
- [52:37]
B
Thanks so much for listening. Keep tuning in to hear more great insights from the coolest marketers from around the world. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe and follow the Marketing Millennials podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. And if you like what you hear, I would greatly appreciate you giving us a five star rating. It helps bring more marketers into our community.