← The Master Investor Podcast with Wilfred Frost
The Master Investor Podcast with Wilfred Frost
Sara Eisen: The Surprising Truth About Trump's Tariffs, & The One Skill All Great Leaders Have in Common
00:40:14
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- [00:00]
A
No question the economy has surprised for many years. On the upside, it has been more resilient than everyone thought. I mean, there have been so many moments in the last few years where consensus was calling for a recession in the US Raising interest rates, that'll lead us into a recession. The economy has outperformed and I think it is getting a little bit of a new, a new resurgence here on many of the Trump administration policies. My guess would be after President Trump, no matter who comes in office, which party tariffs will stay, it's hard to take them off, especially when they're bringing in so much revenue and resetting the global trading relationship. I probably was more nervous when I started out because I was judged more as a young woman and I started doing this when I was in my late 20s. You really have to prove yourself that you know the material, that you can speak credibly about it. And so really, while I always did a ton of prep work, yes, I was nervous that I would come across that way, especially in an area like finance where people's money is at stake and they're making decisions. So you really do have to know what you're talking about and people will judge you for that.
- [01:15]
B
Welcome to the Master Investor Podcast with me, Wilfred Frost, where we celebrate and learn from the success of the best investors, business leaders and politicians in the world, giving you, our listeners, the edge. My guest today is my dear friend and former co anchor at cnbc, Sarah Eisen. She is quite simply one of the best business journalists in the world, having worked initially at Bloomberg and been at CNBC since 2013, where she anchors Squawk on the street and Money Movers. Occupying two of the most important trading hours of the day from 10am to 12pm she also leads the network's coverage on central banks, on consumer products, and many other things. Sarah, what a treat.
- [02:02]
A
This is fun.
- [02:03]
B
What a treat to have you with us here in person. Thank you for joining me.
- [02:07]
A
Thank you so much for inviting me. First of all, you know I'd do anything for you, but this is fun. You've sort of turned the tables on me after all of our years of hosting together.
- [02:14]
B
I know. I can't believe we've never really done a sort of interview of this ilk. I mean, of course we haven't because we were partners as opposed to sitting across from each other other like this, but I still feel like we're partners. I want to kick off with this massive event you hosted last week. CNBC's Invest in America summit was in Washington, D.C. you did. Well, you did all of it, but you did the keynote interview with Treasury Secretary Scott Besant, another one with the all new Fed Governor Stephen Moran, which I want to get to as well, but just set me up for something like that. It's a massive live moment, both for tv, but people there in screen. Do you get nervous before something like that?
- [02:53]
A
Well, luckily, you know, I've been doing this for a very long time, Wilfred, and I don't really get nervous in front of big crowds or high pressure moments anymore. But mostly that's because I do a lot of homework and I prepare. So the more I prepare, the less nervous I feel, which I think you can relate to as someone who's done a lot of homework over the years. But basically as part of my job at cnbc, so I host those two hours, which you kindly said during the market, market hours of the day. But a big part of my job increasingly is events and it's something I love doing because it's a chance to speak to some of these newsmakers and leaders for longer than the five minute, you know, six minute TV interviews. And so we came up with this event called Invest in America. And I think the reason we did it is because businesses domestic in the US but also here and around the globe are doubling down on their investments in America right now. And it just felt like the right time to do something like this. Also I was with the, with President Trump when he went to Riyadh last year or this year, actually a few months ago. And the Saudis hosted something called the Invest in Saudi Summit, basically where they got all of these high profile leaders from the public and private sector to come on and talk about how bullish they were on the kingdom. And I thought we should be doing this here in the US So that was the origin of it. And it was great. We had Treasury Secretary Besant kicking it off. We had a few roundtable panels with CEOs from all sorts of industries, from pharma to retail to defense, talking about some of the opportunities and challenges of doubling down in America.
- [04:29]
B
Well, it was a fantastic event. The coverage been amazing. And one of the things I also want to pick up on those interviews that you do, which I've always noticed in the many years we've worked, you do tons of prep, which I know you don't really have notes in front of you like I do now, you just kind of wing it when you go.
- [04:46]
A
Part of it is that I do prepare, but also, and there's a risk to that strategy. Right. Sometimes I'LL completely forget. And afterwards I thought, oh, geez, I was supposed to ask about that. But I find that having notes distracts me and takes me away from the conversation. And one way that I like to stay present. We all have our own styles in this. It's to be really, really in the moment in the conversation. And it will be hard for me to look down because I will lose focus. Maybe I'm just not as good of a multitasker, but that's how I do it. And I feel confident with the preparation that I'll hit the topics. And guess what? If we go a little bit off topic, sometimes that makes for better conversations. So that is one of my characteristics. Thank you for noticing.
- [05:31]
B
No, but I agree with you. You definitely listening is more important than reading the questions. But for me, I'd feel naked without having that fallback option in front of me. So I think it's a brave stress.
- [05:41]
A
And then I look at them before I go on, and I sort of absorb them as much as I. As I possibly can. But, you know, it definitely works. Feel better.
- [05:50]
B
It definitely works for you. There's no doubt about it. And was there a moment for these big set? I want to get to what Scott Besant said to you in a moment, but a moment where it flipped, where you went from. I really don't get nervous even when I'm talking to the Treasury Secretary, even when I'm talking to the president of Argentina. Did you, for the first half of your career, up until recent years or not?
- [06:12]
A
I probably was more nervous when I started out because I was judged more as a young woman, and I started doing this when I was in my late 20s. You really have to prove yourself that you know the material that. That you can speak credibly about it. And so while I always did a ton of prep work, yes, I was nervous that I would come across that way, especially in an area like finance, where people's money is at stake and they're making decisions. And so you really do have to know what you're talking about, and people will judge you for that. So, yes, maybe a little bit in the beginning, but ever since I was a kid, Wilfred, I always loved the limelight. I went. I used to, you know, I used to do shows for my parents when I was, like, a little girl. And the more audience, the better for me. And when I was younger, I was watching Oprah Winfrey, who inspired me to wanna be on television. And then for my high school project, I did a talk show at one of the local Public access channels on actually was on a very serious topic, teen violence, because it was right after one of the first school shootings that we had in America. But I always was comfortable with a microphone and sort of performing for people. So in a way, that's just part of who I am.
- [07:30]
B
I thought you were gonna say, growing up, I really loved currencies and finance. But that came later. That came later, but it all married together perfectly. Let's talk about what Scott Besson was saying, because unsurprisingly, I think for any finance minister, any treasury secretary, but even less surprisingly for this administration, he was super constructive. On the outlook for the US Economy, way up in your assessment for us, the legitimacy of that positive outlook, what are the plus points in the data right now and what are the concerns?
- [08:02]
A
No question the economy has surprised for many years. On the upside, it has been more resilient than everyone thought. There have been so many moments in the last few years where consensus was calling for a recession in the US that raising interest rates, that'll lead us into a recession. The economy has outperformed, and I think it is getting a little bit of a new resurgence here on many of the Trump administration policies. So, for instance, the investment in America, that. That's happening, that's real. Once a week on cnbc, we cover some Oval Office announcement from some CEO announcing investments in America. It's harder to track and harder to show on the economic data. But what you see overall is an economy that's growing strongly. I mean, the GDP is good. An unemployment rate that is historically low in the low four digits. People do have jobs. We aren't seeing layoffs. We're watching for it because there has been a slowdown in hiring, which is something, you know, a risk factor that we need to watch. But overall, strong, a business activity, business investment has been super strong. And that's been a key feature of this latest recovery period over the last few quarters. Part of it is there's incentive to spend. We had the president's one big beautiful bill pass a few months ago. There was tax certainty that came with that. There were also provisions in there where they were allowed to expense, for instance, factory and equipment, which also led to, I think, a surge of investment. And maybe more importantly than all of this, AI is just generating so much interest, demand, and investment in the US and it's happening primarily at the tech sector, where these massive hyperscaler companies like a Google or Microsoft or a Meta are spending trillions of dollars building out data centers and computer. And you get it from Nvidia and all the chip makers and then other companies, from banks to retail companies, are also investing a lot because everyone agrees that this is transformative and they're going to have to adapt to their businesses. So this combination, a powerful combination, I think of the AI boom with some of the policies, and I'll also include deregulation in that policy, which I think leads business to invest more in, is helping the economy feel really, really strong. Now, it's not to say that it's all good. I mean, I mentioned the risk factor of job growth slowing. It hasn't been necessarily balanced. You hear a lot from consumer companies right now. That high end's doing very well on the income scale. Low income consumer. There's pressure. They feel inflation, which is still firm. They feel uncertainty harder. There are still uncertainty around some of the tariff policies. But all in all, the numbers look pretty good.
- [10:55]
B
I guess the other issue is if the AI investment suddenly stopped, that would be a blow. But it doesn't show signs of it.
- [11:02]
A
It just keeps going and going and going.
- [11:04]
B
So I want to get your take on how good a job Secretary Bessant himself is doing and how much of that positive outlook is down to him. I remember all through Trump's first term we'd be discussing this often and it was almost as if Secretary Mnuchin had to hold off some of the other views of people around the table and Peter Navarro was one of them. Is that also what Secretary Besant has to do? Or weirdly, is everyone kind of on the same page this time? It's not as if he didn't pursue tariffs. It's not as if there had to be someone to prevent Donald Trump from doing that. So just interested overall on how much of this positive outlook you think is down to Besant himself. And has he. Has he had to battle other people's ideas away or is everyone on the same page?
- [11:48]
A
It does feel much more on the same page. I agree with you. Than Trump won. It feels like just in terms of the palace intrigue, less infighting. We're not doing the stories that we did last time about this. Part of the administration wants tariffs and this part doesn't. It feels a lot more purposeful from the get go on this Trump too, and that everyone is sort of right there with him. So Secretary Bessen has been one of the fiercest advocates publicly for the Trump tariff policies. And I think he's instilled a lot of confidence, actually in investors. He used to be one of them. He was a hedge fund manager for a long time. And when I talk to investors, I think they feel really good about that. I'll just give you one example. So when President Trump did announce his Liberation Day tariffs in early April, the reciprocal tariffs and the market panicked. I mean, that was too high, too much. I think it was thought to be sort of arbitrary where those rates came from, unsustainable. And there was also this word from the administration, both from the treasury secretary and the president, that they didn't really care what the market thought going into it, that they were fighting for Main street and they were going to fight for American business. And so that moment where we really started to see big declines in the stock market, we saw that correction. We saw the bond market started to wobble and things got shaky. What happened then? You started seeing the stories. Secretary Bessen is trying to convince President Trump to walk it back. And guess what? Within a few days at the most, President Trump acknowledged that the market, I think he said, had gotten jumpy and that they paused. And it's not to say that they backtracked fully on the tariff strategy. I mean, we still have high tariffs, as you know, against most of our trading partners and things look very different. But that worst case scenario was taken out. And I think the feeling from investors was we've got Secretary Besant there. He understands that once you start seeing bonds sell off as stocks sell off, when bonds are no longer a safe haven, things like that, that's a problem and that requires some policy attention and some addressing. And that's something that happened there. So look, not for me to judge on Secretary Bessant, but I do speak to a lot of investors and a lot of corporate leaders who think feel like he's doing a good job combining some of the administration policies for a pro growth kind of environment. And that he, that he's very open, that business has a seat at the table, that he listens and that he implements a lot of what they say in a thoughtful way.
- [14:29]
B
And he certainly knows the markets for sure, as you said. And I'm interested in your take on the tariffs where we've settled down to, not the peak of the craziness, because I still watch a lot of cnbc, as you know, and I feel like your take on them, or at least Trump won. When we were discussing this regularly, almost everyone was against the idea of tariffs. You coming around to them a bit?
- [14:51]
A
I think that I am along with the people that I talk to, which are the business leaders I respect the most, are warming to the tariffs. Absolutely. Why well, I'm surprised. I was surprised at first at how many businesses, and I'm not talking about just large businesses, even small businesses, which get hurt harder. That I've heard leaders say it's going to be painful. We've got to absorb the higher cost. But I'm just glad that someone is out there fighting for American business. The attitude that he is standing up for American business against the rest of the world, I think that that's something I didn't fully appreciate, that businesses were willing to tolerate that and to support that. I think what's also been surprising to a lot of us is it's not all falling on American business. Yes, the importer definitely pays a higher tariff, but especially at bigger businesses like a Walmart, like a big retail company, there's a division of the cost. Basically. Some of the. Some of the exporter pays, you know, from the other country, a little bit gets passed on to the consumer, A little bit gets absorbed by the importer. In other words, it's not all doom and gloom. Consumer, massive inflation. Like, we've seen a little bit firmer prices in places, especially of products that we import in the US that we can't really get overseas. But we haven't seen a massive surge in inflation, like that was the concern. And we also haven't seen a massive hit on profit margins, which was also a concern. Companies have picked it up. Well, consumers are so far absorbing it. Okay. The stock market's at a record high, so I think everybody is a little surprised at how much better. And by the way, Wilfred, it's also bringing in a lot of money into the Treasury's coffers. We have a massive deficit problem. And if we can bring in a few hundred billion a year in tariffs, that's helpful. And it's certainly helpful also for lowering bond yields, borrowing costs, which is something the administration has purposely said that it's.
- [16:51]
B
Trying to do on the inflation point as well. I mean, we've got higher inflation here than you guys do. 3.8 was the print yesterday. So it's low also relative to some of the European countries. Different question on the tariffs, which is the extent to which, in fact, America has now been protectionist consistently for two or three administrations. Trump, Biden. Trump, too. I mean, Biden perhaps didn't shout about.
- [17:18]
A
It as much, but he kept them all.
- [17:20]
B
But he kept all the tariffs, introduced some new ones on China. So I guess you've all kind of already agreed with that point of the question. But you went to China with Secretary Yellen during the Biden administration. And I'm just interested on whether we actually shouldn't be focusing on, oh, there's new tariffs introduced by President Trump as opposed to. They've been there for a while now. And I do wonder, with this trip coming up, could in fact be about to turn in the opposite direction or not.
- [17:50]
A
I think what the Trump administration is trying to do is rebalance the relationship between the US And China. President Trump has been very clear that he does not like to have a massive trade deficit with another country. And we have a massive trade deficit with China. We buy a lot more of their stuff than they buy from us. If he can rebalance that a little bit, get them to buy more of our agricultural products or our Boeing planes, that's what they're after. And I think tariffs are a tool for him to achieve that. He has made it clear that, first of all, he likes tariffs. They bring in revenue, they favor American business. But he's also used it to put pressure and build leverage in these negotiations with China. I mean, that just happened recently when he was upset about the export controls that they put on these rare earth minerals. And so he said, guess what? November 1st, we're going to to 100% tariffs, back them into a corner so that they have to come to some agreement because we need their rare earth minerals, they need our semiconductors. So there's a lot there. I think that your point is, first of all, tariffs. The Biden administration kept the tariffs, I think. Actually, I don't know this, but my guess would be after President Trump, no matter who comes in office, which party tariffs will stay. It's hard to take them off, especially when they're bringing in so much revenue and resetting the global trading relationship. The other thing I just want to say is that they were surprising and not popular by economists when they first started, and Trump won. But the more I've studied this issue, it's not unusual to have protectionist policies. A lot of other countries do. Most countries do have protectionist policies for certain industries and for their countries. The US did not. I mean, we were very open in free trade, and there's no rule that says that we have to do that. And so there's been a bit of a rethink on that front. And ultimately, if it gets the rest of the world buying more US Products, I think that's what he's up. That's what he's really after.
- [19:46]
B
Do you think there could be a surprise in the U.S. china trade, like, massively reduce the tariffs that are there in the next 12 months. It's not what anyone's looking at at the moment, but I just, I always wonder that with Trump, does he talk it up, talk it up and then present the win, whether it's legitimate win or exaggerated win?
- [20:05]
A
Well, I think you can look even at Europe as an example of what he did there, right. He threatened very high tariffs and there were very high tariffs for a moment or two and then they came and made a deal and now we're at 15% tariffs in that deal with Europe. So that's higher than where it was before. I mean, it was essentially zero. And now we have an effective. Europe has an effective tariff rate to sell into the US of almost 15%. So I think that's maybe the model. Anytime he announces these trade deals, which are really just one sheet agreements on where things are going to end up, they come with tariffs, but they're not as high as they could be. So the threat of the high tariffs in China, yes, we should hopefully end up with lower tariffs, but they'll probably be tariffs because what we've seen in the models of how he's made these deals, we end up higher than where we started, but not as high as it was in the negotiations, which is.
- [21:02]
B
Exactly what's happened with the US UK Deal, essentially. Let's talk about the Fed. You really love central banks.
- [21:10]
A
I think they're the most powerful of all people in the world.
- [21:16]
B
Right up there with world leaders, which is its own point, of course, with the fact that they're not elected. And that's a kind of whole nother debate. You, I think, care massively about their independence and all of those. Do you worry about Fed independence right now or not?
- [21:34]
A
I think there are legitimate reasons to worry about it, but the market is not worried about it. Look, politicians, presidents have always in history wanted lower interest rates and they've. And that. Right, that juices the economy. That helps them. Some, some presidents are less shy about that than others. President Trump, what personally, what I think he's doing is just trolling Chair Powell to try to get him to lower interest rates. The president has not actually ever fully threatened his job. He did not say he was going to fire him. He said he was going to let him serve out his term, which ends in May 2026. So President Trump will have a chance to appoint a new Fed chair. And so he just basically insults him and calls for lower interest rates. The reason that others have questioned, and I'm thinking of people I interview who I really respect and who have Long histories of huge success in the markets, like a Ken Griffin, the Fed Independence question. The President is currently trying to fire a sitting Fed governor named Lisa Cook. The fhfa, which is the housing regulator, as part of the administration, has accused Fed Governor Lisa Cook of mortgage fraud. They basically unearthed documents showing that, if true, she claimed primary residency on two documents, which is crime. So they have accused her of this. She has not been. She has not been.
- [23:07]
B
The courts have back to them.
- [23:09]
A
Well, the courts have backed her as. And the President's been trying to fire her because of this. She hasn't been, you know, indicted or anything. It is something that the Department of Justice is looking into. That's very much a to be continued story. But the President is trying to fire her without her being, you know, convicted of anything. And that's when people think, oh, you know, could that be an assault on Fed independence? That's certainly what her lawyers are arguing. It's. That's not something we've seen before. Let's see what actually happens here. But if there were real massive concerns about Fed Independence, you would see us Treasuries getting hit. The dollar, yes, the dollar is weaker this year, but it has stabilized. It's not like in free fall or anything like that. So don't think that the Fed Independence worries are front and center at the moment. But it's always a question when you see a president trying to fire a sitting Fed governor, which he may actually have the authority to do. It's something the Supreme Court is gonna take up because presidents appoint Fed governors and they can fire them with cause. The question is, what is cause?
- [24:12]
B
Do you think either way, put that question aside, that the Fed over the next three years will be a bit more dovish than it would otherwise have been, than the data might suggest it.
- [24:24]
A
Should be because of the pressure of the President. Yeah, Well, I think that Fed Chair Powell has made it clear that he tunes out all the political noise, whether you can really do that or not. He has started lowering interest rates, which is something the President has wanted to see. He's done that because we've seen some weakness in the job growth and the labor market. And he wants to preserve a good labor market. We've also seen tremendous progress on inflation. It's stalled a little bit lately, but we're not at the levels we were at in the last few years. So he started to cut rates and the market expects him to cut two more times this year, which is kind of crazy. No, I think that there's a feeling that the Worries about the job market outweigh the worries about higher inflation. So the market is telling you that we have shorter, we have, we have lower short term interest rates, inflation expectations, something the Fed pays really close attention to. They, they're very stable. They're not showing any worrisome signs about inflation. And so the Fed has concluded that it's been restrictive. In other words, rates have been high and that's hurting parts of the economy. You know, I talked about the economy strength. The housing market hasn't been great. Affordability is still a problem. Mortgage rates are very high. And so with lower rates, it helps folks buy homes, it helps consumers, it helps low end consumers as well. Rates directly feed into the economy for borrowing auto loans and credit card loans and home loans. And so I think that there are enough warning signs out there in the economy for the Fed to be cutting interest rates regardless of the political pressure. However, I do think that people are expecting easier monetary policy into next year as President Trump gets more picks on the Federal Reserve.
- [26:07]
B
So my final question on this, give me a rating out of 10 for the job that both Powell is doing and bessant.
- [26:16]
A
Look, Fed Chair Powell, the Fed is kind of a thankless. Fed chair is kind of a thankless job because you never know what the alternative would have been. And they always get judged for what they do and always criticized for what they do. But look, if you look at the job he's done through Covid with the extraordinary stimulus program, which a lot of people think kept our entire financial system afloat well beyond the US and our entire economy, when we shut down, they went into all sorts of extreme measures like buying bonds.
- [26:46]
B
And it was a crazy time.
- [26:48]
A
I mean, it was like crazy. And so he navigated through that and then navigated through an inflationary period. Was he late to raise interest rates because he thought it was transitory? Sure. But everyone else did as well. And it turns out, remember everyone was saying, can they do a soft landing? Can they raise interest rates, bring down inflation without taking the economy into recession? He did that. I mean, they did that, which was considered a really, really hard thing to do and wasn't very likely at all, especially when you had to do. And there were some interest rate increases that were not just mini rate increases, they were bigger rate increases because inflation was really high. And so they did that and seemingly did that without jeopardizing the labor market or the economy. So all in all, I think that he has to feel pretty good about his tenure despite the fact that he's getting harassed Here for lower interest rates on the way out.
- [27:48]
B
Let's talk about Forex and currency better than most people. Let's just quick tangent. Talk about Argentina because you interviewed President Milei recently.
- [27:58]
A
Yes, last week in Washington.
- [27:59]
B
It's been a busy week for them. But obviously the US administration's trying to help. What I'm interested in on this and give a bit of background for our listeners as well. But is it futile to try and help prop up a currency? Is that what we've seen in the last week as the peso gets this sort of bailout and inverted commas swap lines with the US From Secretary Besant? Works for a day and then it hits a fresh low.
- [28:25]
A
Well, when you take on the currency market, you have to have a lot of firepower and ammunition. This is the biggest market in the world for people that don't know. I started out covering currencies, which is how I got into this whole world because I took an internship at a place called Forex TV and ended up working there for many, many years. We do like to geek out on currencies, but yes, I mean, trillions of dollars trade every day. And what the market is telling you now is that they're testing the US and the resolve. Treasury Secretary Bessen said that he would, he kind of said it's like a whatever it takes kind of approach to helping Argentina, intervening in their market, backing them with liquidity packages. So far he's put out 20 billion in a so called swap line and then promised another 20 billion more financed by banks and private sector. So that's 40 billion. They've had a pretty strong resolve that they will back him. President Milei is one of the closest leaders with President Trump. He was the first foreign leader to visit in Mar a Lago. Ideologically they are very much in tune and in sync. And I think between the President and the Secretary, they really believe in what he's trying to do to try to completely reform Argentina's economy and feel that it's worth the investment to try to get it done. But the currency market is telling you it might have to cost you more money. They test that all the time. Sunday will be interesting. That's when the midterm elections are in Argentina. And part of the whole panic in the market was sparked by the fact that Milei lost some support in a provincial election a few weeks ago. The market backs him. Argentina was the hottest trade around in the last few years because he was bringing down inflation and cutting government spending and, and keeping the economy afloat. And so if he's able to continue to do that, I think it bodes well for Argentina, the markets and the economy. Question is, will the market and will the electorate let him do that and will the US keep coming in?
- [30:29]
B
Let's talk a little bit about your career. Sarah. You mentioned your route starting with Forex TV. Bloomberg, obviously, CNBC now since 2013. What's your advice to people that want to get into business journalism and broadcast business journalism in particular?
- [30:46]
A
What I always tell people, and it does come back to my experience starting at Forex tv is have an area of expertise, you can always broaden out from there. And I have. But the fact that and even if it's something esoteric like foreign exchange currencies, when I started at Bloomberg, really what helped me, I wanted to report and I wanted to get in the mix. And it was around the time of the financial crisis and I was just raising my hand and saying the dollar, the dollar, the dollar's going nuts. And it was. And when you can be in a room with folks that have been there for a really long time and be the expert on an area and know more about them and answer questions, know more about a subject than others and answer questions about others, it really does help you stand out. That's my big lesson of my career and it also helps me now in studying this Argentina crisis. You have to know what's going on with currency. So it's always helpful to have that. But then to broaden your scope, of course, from there I went from currencies to covering more monetary policy and the economy and then from there to just covering anything in business. Now that's what I've done and I continue to learn and broaden from there.
- [31:58]
B
Well, it's certainly paid off. And so take note of those tips if you're listening people. What has been. I've tried to work out which word to use for this. It's not quite your favorite interview. What has been the most seminal or important interview you've done?
- [32:13]
A
That's a tough one to choose.
- [32:14]
B
Favorite. I thought you'd probably say Steph Curry, but I want a business or a leader.
- [32:18]
A
I did. I had an opportunity to travel to Asia with him. That was fun. It was not seminal, but it was fun.
- [32:22]
B
Exactly.
- [32:22]
A
Seminal. My life maybe. So for me, I guess I think of the most news making interviews. Okay, this is not the most seminal, but it is a funny one, which is when I was at Bloomberg, I had an opportunity to interview the Prime Minister of Spain when he was in New York for national assembly. And it was in the middle of some major crisis, like political crisis. And I didn't really know that much about it. I just wanted to talk to him about Spanish exports and the economy. But my. But our team in Madrid at Bloomberg, we had a great reporting team, would send me some of these questions about the political crisis. And I asked him and he answered. And I didn't think much of it because I wasn't really embroiled in Spanish politics. And apparently it was like some major bombshell that was on the COVID of every Spanish newspaper for like every day, for weeks. He had not done any interviews about it, he had not spoken about it. And I think still, like half of my followers on X are from Spain.
- [33:20]
B
Really?
- [33:21]
A
That was a seminal moment.
- [33:22]
B
You always had a lot more followers than me. Now I know why.
- [33:24]
A
Now you know why you gotta have a viral political crisis. So that was something. I mean, for me, it does always come back to central banks. I was lucky enough. Probably one of the more seminal experiences for me was getting a chance to moderate a panel in Sintra, Portugal, for the annual ECB meeting. Very sexy. But actually it was with the head of the Fed, Powell, the head of the ecb, Lagarde, the head of the bank of England, Bailey, and the head of the bank of Japan, Wada. And those four people in one conversation with me for an hour and a half. It doesn't get better than that.
- [34:02]
B
I remember it was when I was filling in for CNBC in one of my weeks that I do. But you weren't there because you were in Portugal and I was back at the stock exchange.
- [34:11]
A
But everything they say makes news and makes headlines. And to have them all 4 be able to do that and have.
- [34:16]
B
And Sintra is amazing.
- [34:18]
A
Sintra is beautiful.
- [34:19]
B
And the central bank has picked some great retreats. Jackson Hole, they pick some nice areas.
- [34:24]
A
They do. But you know what they're not. They're beautiful places, but none of them are like lap of luxury, you know, Fed, Jackson Hole. It's a very rustic kind of lodge.
- [34:35]
B
Well, it makes for a good backdrop for TV programmes.
- [34:38]
A
Exactly.
- [34:38]
B
So in that sense it works very well. Okay, quick, final stuff. Cause I know we're. We're right up against time. Who's the person that's gotten away that you're still chasing, perhaps that you haven't interviewed?
- [34:51]
A
So you know me, I chase people all day, every day. I think the people that would be the most incredible to interview and transformative in business is one that I know we share. Her name is Taylor Swift. I think that would be pretty epic. I've never had a one on one with Jay Powell though I've interviewed him in panels. Would love to do that. And then right now it's just all about who's leading us into this new world of AI and getting a chance to speak to those folks. Sam Altman of OpenAI is basically at the center of everything. I would love to interview him and he's out there, so stay tuned.
- [35:28]
B
Okay, good. I look forward to that. That'd be great. Or Taylor Swift.
- [35:33]
A
That one's harder.
- [35:33]
B
Just keep me posted and I'll be tuning in the so we mentioned there all these amazing people from entertainment to central banks, politics and business that you've interviewed. Usually when we wrap up we ask people what's the overriding piece of investment advice or leadership advice? I guess it's slightly different question for you from all of these amazing leaders and investors that you've been lucky enough to speak to. Have you drawn a lesson for leadership away from all of them collectively that you you can share with others?
- [36:03]
A
Yeah, I've been really privileged to be able to study and get to know these incredible leaders. And one thing that I do see that's a common thread in the best leaders is a remarkable ability to be able to sit on top of an organization. And this goes for public sector, private sector, small business and understand the big picture and have vision of where the company should be going but at the same time know everything that's going on inside the company. The ability to think big and project big but then also to know every detail about what's going on and be able to answer questions about every. It's. That's actually a tough balance and it's a rare and very valuable I think leadership characteristic that I've seen sort of across both the corporate world and the government world.
- [36:56]
B
That's really, really interesting. I have a very quick final fun question which is I think you know we're launching a new breakfast show here in the UK.
- [37:03]
A
Yes, I'm very excited.
- [37:05]
B
In 10 days time mornings with Ridge and Frost and I wondered if you had any tips for Sophie if she's listening on how to put up with me and being my co anchor.
- [37:13]
A
Well, right. Cause we were together for many years. So one I would tell her not to try to rename you. I don't think this will be a problem. But when you first came over to the US thought what kind of name is Wilfred? We're going to call him Will. That didn't go very well Blocked that turns out you weren't into that. So don't try to, don't try. That won't be a problem. And if it won't be a problem, she won't have to make fun of any of your sort of British schisms.
- [37:39]
B
I think I'll still have the fun made of me for my type of Britishness.
- [37:43]
A
Well, no, what I would say though is that I hope that she will make fun of you because you are someone that, you know, I was so lucky to work with you for so many years and also be very close friends with you. But you can take, it's always good when someone can make fun of themselves or not take themselves too seriously. And a lot of people on TV take themselves very seriously. And so it's nice to actually have a little bit of self deprecating humor, which you do. And the other thing I would tell her is debate. You are a great debater and have strong views and are able to defend really strong views and have taught me a lot over the years. And I think some of our most memorable moments, and there were many of them doing a show at 5am Together is a special kind of bonding experience. But the debate, because we both came prepared and came armed and so I always thought that that was a treat and that was a lot of fun.
- [38:37]
B
Well, thank you for that and I just completely agree with all that you say. Actually, as you were saying that I was thinking of Lisa, our executive producer who used to scream in our ears to rap and I have a feeling that we just tuned her out, that my new executive producer Emily might be in a similar situation going forward. Sarah, it's always a treat to be here.
- [38:56]
A
Thank you so much for having me.
- [38:57]
B
But it's a particular treat to have this conversation in this way. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you for joining me on the Master.
- [39:04]
A
It's honored to be part of you. You've had some real master investors on, so it's esteemed company. I'm honored that you asked me to join.
- [39:10]
B
Well, favorite guest to date, no doubt about it. Sarah Eisen. Thank you so much for joining us on the Master Investor podcast next week. It's a bit of a CNBC loving. We'll be joined by Andrew Ross Sorkin, whose new book 1929 on the great Crash has just been published. We'll be discussing that and also reacting to the mayoral elections in New York which take place when he's in town. Remember, nothing you've heard on the Master Investor podcast should be considered direct financial advice. There's more on that in our show notes if you'd like to to refer to it. The Master Investor Podcast is produced by Paradine Productions and Master Investor Podcast Ltd. In association with Birdline Media. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please do subscribe on YouTube or click follow on your podcast platform, and then you'll be automatically notified each time a new episode drops. For now, thank you again to Sarah Eisen. Thank you all, and we'll see you next week with Andrew Rossorgan.