Episode 1 - Bomani Jones

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Matt Jones Show – Episode 1 with Bomani Jones

Release Date: May 15, 2025
Host: Matt Jones
Guest: Bomani Jones
Platform: iHeartPodcasts

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1. Introduction

In the inaugural episode of The Matt Jones Show, Kentucky Sports Radio Host Matt Jones reunites with his longtime friend Bomani Jones, a multifaceted personality known for his work with ESPN, HBO, and CNN. This episode delves deep into their two-decade-long friendship, Bomani's experiences in sports journalism, and broader discussions on media, race, and society.

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2. Friendship and Early Career

Matt Jones reflects on starting the show by bringing back Bomani Jones, emphasizing their almost 20-year friendship. Bomani shares insights about their initial interactions, particularly discussing how Matt reached out to him regarding a piece Bomani wrote in 2006 about Tubby Smith and the University of Kentucky's basketball team.

Bomani Jones [04:35]: "I wrote down my feeling that everybody had checked out."

Matt recalls that their collaboration began when Matt noticed Bomani's work and invited him onto his radio show, sparking a meaningful dialogue between the two.

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3. Racial Dynamics in Sports Commentary

The conversation shifts to Bomani's early career and the challenges he faced as a young Black journalist in sports media. Bomani discusses how his commentary was sometimes misconstrued or censored, particularly highlighting the removal of his piece by ESPN.

Bomani Jones [05:12]: "They took the piece down after it went up for whatever reason."

Matt and Bomani explore the complexities of expressing genuine opinions in a media landscape where words can be weaponized or misinterpreted, especially within the context of race.

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4. The Impact of the Internet on Media and Tribalism

Bomani articulates his concerns about how the internet fosters tribalism, reducing opportunities for intra-group disagreements. He criticizes the trend of opinion pieces that merely echo popular sentiments without genuine discourse.

Bomani Jones [06:10]: "The Internet has made everyone more tribal."

He emphasizes the importance of healthy dialogue within groups, advocating for robust conversations rather than echo chambers that stifle diverse opinions.

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5. Stephen A. Smith as a Political Figure

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on Stephen A. Smith and the notion of him as a potential presidential candidate. Bomani critiques the media's tendency to elevate certain personalities without substantive qualifications.

Bomani Jones [11:48]: "He's on these stations. He's on this station."

He argues that Stephen A.'s prominence is less about his qualifications and more about media amplification, which often distorts the public's perception of expertise.

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6. Media Representation and Expertise

Matt and Bomani delve into the challenges of being perceived as "experts" in today's media environment. They discuss how media outlets often prioritize entertainment over expertise, making it difficult for knowledgeable individuals to gain visibility without being overly entertaining.

Bomani Jones [16:10]: "You and I grew up going to rural public schools. We understand what eye level is."

Bomani underscores the importance of relatability and authenticity in media, suggesting that true expertise should resonate without the need for excessive entertainment.

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7. Sports Discussions: Carl Towns, Bill Belichick, and More

Shifting back to sports, the duo discusses current topics such as Carl Towns' performance in the NBA, the unconventional relationship between Bill Belichick and his partner "Fancy," and the broader implications of media portrayals in sports.

Matt Jones [38:07]: "The Knicks could easily end up going to the Eastern Conference finals."

Bomani Jones [39:54]: "I am amazed at how prepared she has been to get all this done."

These segments highlight the intersection of sports, media narratives, and personal dynamics within high-profile relationships.

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8. Dealing with Criticism and Failure

Bomani opens up about his personal experiences with failure, including his stint on ESPN's "High Noon" and his challenges in graduate school. He emphasizes resilience and the importance of maintaining ambition despite setbacks.

Bomani Jones [44:42]: "I have to recognize that I don't have to be great at everything that I do."

Matt shares his own experiences with failed TV shows, drawing parallels with Bomani's journey and the shared understanding of overcoming professional hurdles.

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9. Conclusion

As the episode winds down, Matt and Bomani address the pervasive nature of online criticism, specifically pointing out figures like Clay Travis who consistently challenge their viewpoints. Bomani expresses frustration with how certain media personalities perpetuate caricatures that hinder genuine connections.

Bomani Jones [50:03]: "When you have persons like Clay leans in on what this nonsense is and stops what connections we could actually make."

The episode concludes with mutual appreciation and a commitment to fostering meaningful conversations beyond the noise of divisive media narratives.

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Notable Quotes:

• Bomani Jones [04:35]: "I wrote down my feeling that everybody had checked out."
• Bomani Jones [06:10]: "The Internet has made everyone more tribal."
• Bomani Jones [11:48]: "He's on these stations. He's on this station."
• Bomani Jones [16:10]: "You and I grew up going to rural public schools. We understand what eye level is."
• Bomani Jones [44:42]: "I have to recognize that I don't have to be great at everything that I do."
• Bomani Jones [50:03]: "When you have persons like Clay leans in on what this nonsense is and stops what connections we could actually make."

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This first episode of The Matt Jones Show successfully sets the tone for future discussions, blending personal anecdotes with critical analysis of media and societal issues. Listeners are treated to an engaging conversation that not only highlights the deep-rooted friendship between Matt and Bomani but also offers insightful perspectives on navigating the complexities of modern media landscapes.

Transcript

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[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Matt Jones]

Bread, topped with aged provolone and served melty and hot straight from the oven. So when you hear your craving for Penn Station and don't forget the fresh cut fries. Penn Station. Love your sub. All right, welcome, everybody. This is the Matt Jones Show. And you know, when I did my first show, I guess of the old Matt Jones podcast, which started many, many, many years ago, my first guest was Bomani Jones. And I thought how fitting that we're starting it back. And we bring him back, my longtime friend Bo from espn, hbo, now cnn. He was a writer. He did local radio. You've done everything, Bomani. Thank you very much, man.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I appreciate you. It dawned on me like we're not in the round number stage yet, but we are almost at 20 years of knowing each other.

[Matt Jones]

Yeah. So let's start with that. You were tell everybody how we met. You were a local. A lot of people don't know you did local radio for a long time.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah. But this is before I did local radio. I was writing for Page two and I wrote a story about Carolina and Kentucky had played at the Dean Dome. This was the last year of Tubby Smith. And it looked like, it looked like everybody had checked out on that. And I wrote 2000.

[Matt Jones]

It was 2006.

[Ryan Seacrest]

2006. So I wrote down my feeling that everybody had checked out. And I probably got a couple things wrong. And I know this because you reached out to me about it, which went okay. And, you know, you made up some very. Also a very worthwhile point that I wasn't thinking about is that, you know, there's a racial dynamic in how Tubby is evaluated and how I, as young black guy, my words could then be used on a topic that to be fair, and I have a better appreciation for it now than I did then. I only knew but so much about. So I was like, okay, this is cool. It was actually interesting because I can't remember the reason ESPN took it down. Like they felt like there was some detail that wasn't correct or whatever. And they took.

[Matt Jones]

Oh, I didn't know they took it down.

[Ryan Seacrest]

And that was part of what was. That was part of what was famous about it was that they had taken the piece down after it went up for whatever the reason. But I do remember very clearly that after that you're like, hey, you ought to come on our radio show. And I said, okay, fine. And I went on. And I couldn't believe you guys were talking like this about things in sports. I was like, oh, y' all talk about Duke like this, this is crazy. I agree, but this is crazy.

[Matt Jones]

Well, you, at the time, you had written something that was kind of like, maybe Kentucky needs to make a change. And I was a generally pretty positive tubby guy. And a lot of folks were using your words to go see, we're not racist. We want to be gone. Here's a young black guy that wants it, too. When you have opinions that are genuinely your opinions, but then people that might be bad actors in your mind take them for arguments you don't want, how does that work? I'm sure that's happened to you before.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, it just happened recently. We're talking about Shador Sanders.

[Matt Jones]

Yes.

[Ryan Seacrest]

And the draft. And so what has made it complicated is actually the presence of the Internet. Or maybe the Internet has made it a little bit more simple in that the Internet has made everyone more tribal. And I think a thing the Internet has done that we don't talk enough about is it has minimized intra group disagreement. Right. Like, so a lot of these young columnists that I see, I don't even know columnist is the right term anymore. Right. But like young people who traffic in opinions, they seem to figure out what everybody's already saying and then distill that into one thing and then give people back what they already said in the first place. Because you can go workshop anything on the Internet, right? Like, you can go figure out on a social media platform, how's this take going to go over and then decide if the people that you care about are going to feel the same way? To me, I feel like, A, that's cheating, and B, I feel like that's not particularly interesting. Like, if you're really good at this, then you've earned the respect of your audience and they'll go with you. When they don't necessarily agree with you and maybe think about it a different way, but people are also now far less likely to actually do that. And so one thing I have decided to push back on is the refusal I see from other people to criticize within whatever the group may be. Whether the group is the left, whether the group is black people, what are the group is young people, whether the group is fans of a particular team or whatever it is like, we've got to have the healthy dialogue within that.

[Matt Jones]

Yeah. Let me explain to people who might not know what you see said you, you said about Shador Sanders. I believe something like, maybe he needs to be a little more humble.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, he did it wrong.

[Matt Jones]

Which.

[Ryan Seacrest]

He did it wrong. Right.

[Matt Jones]

He did it wrong.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah.

[Matt Jones]

And there. And that was also the kind of thing that like a right wing columnist would say.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Right.

[Matt Jones]

And, and, and that's hard for you to say, even if you're coming at it from a different point.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Well, the trick bag on that is if you give me time to talk it out. Right. Like my explanation on it was all of us get humbled by life at some point. Neither you nor I hurt for confidence. Right. We have both had moments where we're like, oh, okay, we got put in check just a little bit by the world. The problem is when people believe that somebody is supposed to do it, typically believing that they themselves the audacity to believe that you are the humbler. Right. You ain't got to worry about that. The world's going to do that. And that's what happened to Shador. And so the thing with Shador in the draft was I just had a lot of people who had made the call that it was, that there was something nefarious about the fact that he slid in the draft. And I'm like, nah, I don't think that's what happened. I, I think that what happened was he wasn't necessarily talented enough to be a first round pick. And then the way that he handled those, he handled those interviews as though he was the one making the decision, not the teams.

[Matt Jones]

Yes, he did.

[Ryan Seacrest]

And so the teams, you know, and that's what's going to happen. But it becomes necessary to say those things. The problem is some of the worst people in the world also felt the same way. Broken clock, couple times a day, it gets something right. But I can't, I can't let those people, I never let those people determine what I'm going to say. Right.

[Matt Jones]

Yeah. So you didn't feel like you could have the opinion Shador should have been a first round pick, right? If you didn't think he should be a first round pick, right? I mean, like you can't have that.

[Ryan Seacrest]

That and I'm not. And it's one thing where I think that there's, when I think there's healthy room for disagreement, then, okay, you think he was a first round pick, that's fine. The trick bag with something like Shador was. Shador was playing college football for a non college football audience. So the people who are the most invested in that are the people who are probably the least informed and the least aware. And so I look up and I see a buddy of mine, a writer, and he says something about, well, show me a time when a guy won the Johnny Unitis award and had numbers like these and then fell all the way to whenever I was like Garden Dimension 2019, six round pick with all these numbers that you said, like, we gotta.

[Matt Jones]

I almost probably didn't even know that, right? I didn't even know.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Oh, he had no idea. He was operating on what, to be fair, is a somewhat reasonable proposition that these white folks is doing us wrong. There is an extended track record where, if that is your default, I understand why you start there, but you can't just go there no matter what, right? Especially if you're trying to make the point in public because you're already going uphill when you're trying to make that point to anybody at all. It's not worth it to make that point unless you're sure. Like, to me, you can't just be guessing. You got to have a really, really strong case rather than just a correlation. And I thought with Shador, what a lot of that was simply was a correlation. And then the, the, the argument I saw from people, and again, there's a track record of this, of they wanted to tame the, you know, they just want to pay you. This outspoken black man, I'm like, he's not outspoken, he's obnoxious. Those are two different things. So, like, I think the Internet gets us with a lot of conflation of terms and people get really charged up and they have to be on the side and everything else. And I'm not going to play that game with people. Like, I feel like I've earned the respect that you're going to listen to me regardless of whether or not I agree with you.

[Matt Jones]

One of the people that said that was, was Stephen A. Who said something like, this is like Kaepernick and I want, you know, I don't, I Don't really know Stephen A. But I wanted to be like, look, it is clear Kaepernick had the NFL. They had come together and violated antitrust. That's why they settled with him, and that's why he's not played. Since then, you, Stephen A. Has become this figure where whatever he talks about gets a lot of intention, including the absurdity that people think he could run for president. You've known him a long time. I know you respect his work. When he was a writer. How do you feel about this notion that he's almost become this spokesman somehow for not just sports, but anyone who might be on the left or anyone like. We all have to hear what Stephen A. Thinks about anything.

[Ryan Seacrest]

So what I think is interesting about that, and it doesn't happen so much anymore, but I noticed that I was getting a heavy push from the algorithm. Whenever he would go on anything or talk about any politics, like there. There are engagement, farming accounts that put up stuff that Stephen A. Says on his podcast and everything else. I am. I think part of what happens when we start talking about running for president now is people start talking about candidates for president in the context of, do you think they can win? And the arguments behind not whether they should be president. Yeah. But the arguments behind why you think somebody could win is, well, how many people know who this person is already? And so forth and so on. It's all these things that don't have anything to do with your actual ability to govern. But of course, that's reinforced by the person that is actually the president. Right. And so Stephen A. Is really famous. I think that's the part that gets, like, lost and undersold. He's really famous. And running for president is effectively a television contest. Now, I am going to read something to you that I found in a book that I was reading just the other day.

[Matt Jones]

It was by already having this pulled up. I didn't even tell you topics. Nobody have this on your phone.

[Ryan Seacrest]

It just so happened that I had. I was talking to somebody about this because I was reading this Neil Postman book about education that I kind of had to stop reading because I realized that it was too. It was more technically about education as a doctrine, like as a study as opposed to education as, you know, just the general idea. But the point they make, if I can't find the exact. The exact phrasing. But the point they make is after a certain point where the media gets too big and the media is controlled by a certain, like, number of people, like television was the argument they were making. Right. That it be. It's going to reach a point where a prerequisite for running for president is that you are a famous person, that you have a career already as a celebrity, because otherwise already the case.

[Matt Jones]

You think that's already the case?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Well, it's, it's a fair question. The fact that Stephen A. Smith thing has gotten as far as it has. Look, let me tell you this. There's a story running very soon in the New York Times, and I know this because they interviewed me for it, about the idea of Stephen A. Smith being president. And it's not in the sports media section, right. Like it was by a writer.

[Matt Jones]

I've never heard anybody that wants Stephen A. To be president. Like, I hear people saying that he could be president, but I have yet to meet one person that would want Stephen A. Smith to be president.

[Ryan Seacrest]

No, I don't know anybody who has said that. I don't. I appreciate the fact that Stephen A. Appreciates that. This is ridiculous, right? Like, do you think he does he.

[Matt Jones]

Do you think he does?

[Ryan Seacrest]

He has said at every turn that the idea that someone wants me to be president is an indictment primarily of.

[Matt Jones]

The Democrats, but nobody wants him to be president. He wills that into existence.

[Ryan Seacrest]

But these polling, but these polls have willed that into existence. The people that put his name on the paperwork, Cuomo and, and Bill O'Reilly doing, wow, what a. What a salad. Those three guys doing like, like, doing like town halls and stuff like that. Now, to be fair to Stephen A. What Stephen A. Will tell you is that he's done political commentary on television for a very long time, which again is true, but so have I. And I'm not. I, I don't. I'm not going to be the one to run for president. I also think that part of why people are willing to entertain this notion that is that right now he has gotten behind a very bipartisan idea which is banging on the Democrats. Everybody can. Everybody enjoys that, loves that song, right? Like that one has crossed over. It is top 10 number one with a bullet and right fast. This is what the. This, this is what the book says. It said, as Paul Goodman's pointed out, there are many forms of censorship, and one of them is to deny access to loudspeakers to those with dissident ideas or even any ideas. This is easy to do and not necessarily conspiratorial. Or when the loudspeakers are owned and operated by mammoth corporations with enormous investments in their proprietorships. What we get is an entirely new politics, including the possibility that a major requirement for holding political office be prior success as a show business celebrity. And now to me, where he is talking about television, where it gets wonky, is I think the people who truly control that information in that way are Musk, Zuckerberg, and the people that control the social media algorithm. And they can greatly decide who does or doesn't get famous. Like the idea of Stephen A. Smith is president was. I was getting bombarded with it about a month and a half ago and I didn't ask for it.

[Matt Jones]

Yeah. Do you. Okay, so you, You're. If people can't already tell, and I'm sure they can, you are an extremely intelligent person. I have watched as with you, you have to try to have success in a world that is for carnival barkers. So do I mean I have to do the same thing. You have to be funny, you have to be entertaining, et cetera, and you have to walk that line. And some people can do it and some people can't. Do you feel like you are able to both be intelligent, make the comments you want to make, but also be funny enough, entertaining enough that they can put you on TV and you'll make good tv?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Well, I mean, I've been doing it for a long time, so I'd like to think that I can. Right. Like, I could be wrong, but I. I think that I can. The reason that I think that I can and the reason I think I do it fairly effectively, and this is a reason that you and I could be as close as we have. I believe, and I think it's very important, is you and I grew up going to rural public schools.

[Matt Jones]

Yes.

[Ryan Seacrest]

And I think that that's a very important point in terms of your ability to relate to people. We understand what eye level is a little bit differently, and we grew up around people who, if they feel like you're talking over your heads, will try to fight you. Like, you have to learn how to, like, how to do this stuff and still talk to them. Right. So that's like my fundamental belief is that I believe. My brother told me something when I first started writing that I'll never forget. And he said a great argument is not one that a genius cannot refute, it is one that a fool cannot refute. And so I feel like if I can keep it simple, like, keep it, like, keep it tangible, and there'll be something funny that comes up along the way, then people will listen to it. And in the end, I think that as long as you're not being a jerk about it people can identify who are the very smart people and they want to know what the very smart people think about things, if for nothing else than to affirm them when they agree with the very smart people. Right? And so the trick is figuring out how to assume that responsibility without being condescending in the process, which I am not always.

[Matt Jones]

No, the condescending is huge and Democrats are terrible at that. We are. Our party is much more condescending than. Than the other side. I also think there's been this rise though of what I would call the stupid intellectual, which is the person that is just smart enough to sound smart in a minute on TikTok. Yes, but then really can't. The example I always use is, is Charlie Kirk, no offense, the guy, he might be a nice guy, but in a minute that dude can sound smart. And when they do the things where he brings college kids on and he debates them for 30 seconds, he can sound smart.

[Ryan Seacrest]

But.

[Matt Jones]

But if you set him next to a really smart person, he's not going to sound smart. But I think the society and social media now rewards the one minute smart person.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I remember when I was in high school, I went to a summer program, like a pre college prep type of summer program, and a professor came in and he was a math professor. And I remember it seemed like the most amazing thing in the world. He just started rattling off formulas, right? He would be like, yeah, I do math. So I know that sine squared to x plus a cosine squared of x equals 1. I know that sine theta divided by cosine theta equals tangent theta. Like you rattled off all these and you know, we're 50, we're like, whoa, wow, this is so amazing. And I remember I told my mama about this guy and my mom was a college professor, for those of you who don't know. And she just rolled her eyes. She had been so sick of this man forever with this, these tricks that he was doing, rattling off these 10th grade level equations, right? Like she had been so sick of that for the longest. But he was capable of. What you're describing is the presentation is smart. That goes away when people ask a few questions. And one thing about the way this Internet stuff works is even with like TV and radio, you were more likely to be in a place where somebody was going to challenge you on what you said and you had to answer for it. You don't really have to do that on your own platform like that. So Charlie Church, no, put this stuff out there and a million people can reply to him and say, this is wrong, this is wrong. But he never has to answer to him.

[Matt Jones]

And if he debates 15 people and he loses one, he can just not post that one. Yes, right. Like, you know, that's the one. He doesn't.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Well, Charlie Kirk. Hold on. Charlie Kirk. Touch. It taps into something. I'm curious what you think about where I am convinced that liberals made Charlie Kirk famous. That Charlie. Charlie Kirk trolled his way into a larger fame.

[Matt Jones]

Oh, yeah, we give. We. We get so upset at the craziest and we actually amplify them.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Right.

[Matt Jones]

And that's. That, that's a negative. And by the way, the right does that too. They pick the craziest left person, amplifies them as well, and you end up with extreme voices.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Right. But the left does not. The right values the fact that you antagonize the left. So Charlie Kirk making a bunch of people on the left mad makes him more famous with the right. It doesn't really work that way. You know, it doesn't really work that way in the, in the opposite direction. But I did MSNBC once, and I remember they made some mention of Charlie Kirk, and I had to be like, hey, guys, the only reason I know who this man is is because people I hate keep talking. People I know keep talking about him. People I like keep talking about him. Like, you would go. And that was at the time where you'd go to, like, his Twitter profile, and it was the same number of followers as it was following, and that was in the hundreds of thousands. Like, he trolled his way into fame, but he would not have gotten big enough if not for this outrage of the left. That wasn't even outrage. It was as much people on the left showing how mad they were to each other.

[Matt Jones]

Yeah, that's right. We're. We're, we're big on sort of looking like we care the most. It's a competition to see who. Who is the most, to use a right phrase, woke. But it's really like who's got the opinion that gets the most agreement. You go on CNN now some, some for that panel show. It's what. Who's the host? What's her name?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Philip.

[Matt Jones]

Abby. Phillip. And there's a guy from Kentucky that you're on quite a bit with that I actually used to do television with a lot of these listeners will know. Scott Jennings, I find it interesting. You to me, more than deserve to be on there for your intelligence, but it is also interesting to me that CNN feels like that's where they go to get people is there's all these sports people on there. I mean, Scott Jennings is just a guy in Kentucky. Like, he didn't even. Like, he's. He's. There's nothing. He's pretty smart, but he's not qualified any more than anyone else is.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Right.

[Matt Jones]

It's odd how the experts in politics now are just people that they just kind of pick out of nowhere and say, this is an expert now.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, it's. It's a mix of people and almost like a sports like pipeline. Like, hey, you just retired. Eh? How'd you like to come get a job on NFL game day? Like, you know, like, it's, It's. It's some measure that, like with Scott. Scott and I haven't done anything.

[Matt Jones]

You want to punch him? You've wanted to punch him. I know I've wanted to punch him, and I work with him all the time.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I'll be honest with you. I told him. I was like, hey, I don't need to be on TV with him. Like, I just don't. I just. I just don't think that's. I don't think that's a good idea, you know, Because I don't. Because part of it is I don't want to argue with him. But then you got to argue with him if he's out there. And then if this goes in a bad direction. I don't. Like. I just. I don't. I didn't feel like dealing with that as it related to him. But I do notice on a lot of these networks, like, I do think that I am qualified to talk about these things. I think I've got the rigor. But I also think it's fair for somebody to look up and be like, why is this guy on television?

[Matt Jones]

Watch this guy on tv. Yeah, it would be the same with me if they put me on. It's like when I used to host the nightly political show in Kentucky, there'd be people who say, why do you get to do that? And I don't really know the answer to that. But that's also, by the way, true about sports. I didn't even play, so, like, why do you and I get to talk about sports? We weren't big athletes.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Right. It's all. And you have to. You have to show improve. Like, this is actually an interesting Stephen A. Smith parallel. People were very upset with Stephen A. Smith about him getting Max Kellerman fired. And I respected the fact that Stephen A. Owned it. But his point was people come on every day and ask why Are you here? You weren't a journalist, you weren't a player. Why aren't you here? And people took that as arrogance. And I'm like, no, sir, that is the question that all of us have to answer every single day when we are on television. Like, we've got to answer it. I will admit I watch a lot of political television and I'm not putting this on news night. I'm talking about in the macro I put, I watch a lot of television. Even if the people have some qualification within this political world. I watch a lot of television and say, I don't understand why I'm listening to you.

[Matt Jones]

I'm surprised you watch that. Like, I find it mind numbing. What makes you, what makes you watch political television?

[Ryan Seacrest]

I watch some of it just to get a handle of what's going on. I don't watch a lot. I want to be very clear, like, I don't watch a lot. I'll see clips as they float down on the Internet. It is, I mean, look, the, the business of cable news is in a real bad place because of. Apparently people in general, outside of the Fox News audience have decided they don't feel like this is a great use of their time anymore.

[Matt Jones]

Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Which I am fascinated by how like that has happened now. I think people just kind of burned out on all of it. I think they, I think people have just grown exhausted. Like, I think with all these, if you think about 10 years ago, like the emphasis on social causes that you saw, all of these things, I think people are just in survival mode at this point. And interestingly enough, cable news, they don't feel like it's going to help them survive.

[Matt Jones]

After. Well, that's interesting. You and I have had conversations about this. After George Floyd, which was just five years ago, it felt like a lot of people, companies and all these folks felt like they had to sort of show their commitment to causes. You joked about how for two weeks everybody like, you know, did their two weeks of things and then it seems to have completely gone in a different direction. And I have friends who are on the left who just now are like, I just don't, I can't think about it anymore. It frustrates me. And I'm just like you said, exhausted. Why do you think that happens so quickly? I mean, it just reverts so quickly.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Well, I always felt though that George Floyd was a moment that was really eight years in the making. It goes from Trayvon Martin to George Floyd with four years of Trump tacked on, on the back End of that. And then there was this George Floyd. It was so egregious what happened, that we could go back and look at who the people were who always say the terrible thing. And they were like, hey, not this week. Right? Like, there's the one.

[Matt Jones]

They're like, all right, we'll give you this one.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, there's a guy that owns a website whose name I refuse to say. And I think you know who I'm talking about. Even he.

[Matt Jones]

Yes. Refused.

[Ryan Seacrest]

He's like, no, no, no, no, no. We're not doing it this time. And it was such a wild couple weeks. My favorite story about that, Drew Brees got in trouble because he had gone on some news show and in this time was asked about the national anthem, and he said, I think we should stand for the. The standard Drew Brees answer. Drew Brees did not realize that we were in the middle of a moment, right? And he gave the standard Drew Brees answer, and everybody came down on him. One of his teammates even said, you to him. Like, it was wild, everything that happened. But I'll never forget, I was trying to explain to people. I'm like, look, that's always been his answer about the national anthem. He pressed the national anthem button, and that was what came out, because it always comes out. And Drew Brees's money is not affected by this. And the point that I made was, I went to the Wrangler Twitter account, and this is when everybody was playing jeans, Wrangler jeans, and everybody was putting out, like, the black squares with their statements about George Floyd and everything else. And I was like, look, Wrangler has not put one of these out. And you know why? Because that Wrangler money doesn't care about this. Their audience does not care. And I. And the point I was making was that it was okay, right? That's not who their brand.

[Matt Jones]

You didn't think Wrangler needed to make a statement, right?

[Ryan Seacrest]

It clearly neither did Wrangler. Right. Because they did.

[Matt Jones]

Bill Burr has that thing. He goes. He was. He has a joke about this where he talks about Burger King, and he was like, burger King came out and said, we're very against this. And he was like, I don't go to Burger King to hear what you think about whatever. Like, I come for burger one way or the other.

[Ryan Seacrest]

But let me tell you this. The very next day, there was a post on the Wrangler Twitter account about this. And this would happen from time to time. Stuff like this could happen where I'd be On my show, joking about something like, once the NBA store had old Golden State warriors gear, but it was Philadelphia warriors and I had not fully realized that warriors means Indians. Like all the things that. All the things that are warriors used to be in these. Like, I had a baseball team that was the warriors when I was a kid and it was blue with red letters. It didn't dawn on me that it was really the Cleveland Indians. Right. And so it's this wildly offensive imagery on this throwback merchandise that is being sold at the NBA store for the Warriors. I didn't even know it existed. I said something about it on my podcast. I laughed about it. The next day it was gone. Gone. I tell you, gone. And I'm like, dog, I wasn't even getting on you. I was just laughing.

[Matt Jones]

So do you think the people that are kind of the Joe Rogan's or of the right who. I think that radicalized a lot of those people. When those kinds of things happen, do you think they had any point or do you think that, like, do you think there was any point that, hey, it went too far?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Well, in sports, I think the example that people typically point to is the NBA, NBA bubble and putting Black Lives Matter on the floor. And yes, the name, you know, the, the slogans on the back of jerseys. It was ham fisted. They didn't know what to do. But if you weren't here for that moment, it's hard to explain, like, how pressing it was. Andy's boys are talking about not playing. Like it was all falling apart. They had to do whatever it was.

[Matt Jones]

Remember, they were talking about having it in Louisville and because of Brianna Taylor, the players wouldn't do it.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Right.

[Matt Jones]

Louisville was one of the two or three finalists to have it because we have so many gyms where they could do. And then after Breonna Taylor, the players said they wouldn't do it.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah. So, I mean, I like, I don't know if I would say that there were things that went too far. Like, I don't think that there was anything re. I don't think there was anything tangible that really mattered that went too far. I do think what happened though was that, as is the case with most, most social revolutions, and if we will call this a revolution for this discussion, is they're normally spearheaded by young people. And it was spearheaded by this generation of young people that is very, very concerned with language. Right. And very concerned with feelings as much as it is anything.

[Matt Jones]

They love feelings.

[Ryan Seacrest]

And so these offices, so these like corporate offices and stuff that were Full of these young people who got these slack channels and they were getting everything going. It was about keeping them together and everybody holding the line because everybody's stuck at home. They're frustrated. You know how. You know how terrible Covet had to be for white people to get on board in the way they did with this black cause. Like, it was so much that was going on. And it is fair to make the argument that the people who were in charge just weren't quite ready for all the responsibility and everything that would then come from that moment. But the truth is that moment lasted for like three weeks, maybe four.

[Matt Jones]

Yeah, well, I mean, in Kentucky, John Caliperi knelt with the team at a game and it still got brought up three or four years later. It was one game. It wasn't even in Lexington. It was at Florida. That was the year he went 13 and 19 or whatever. And it was like the only good game they played all season. But people still remember. And that image stuck with him. And it's interesting. I still have people Bomani that five years later bring it up to me and said, that's when I turned on him. It wasn't the fact that they went 13 and 19. It was that kneeling that day.

[Ryan Seacrest]

It's. That's for something that is so ultimately benign like that.

[Matt Jones]

That mattered to some people. I thought it was silly, but it did.

[Ryan Seacrest]

It did a lot. And it was. I actually thought that around college places that there would be, if nothing else, in understanding that this is good for business.

[Matt Jones]

Oh, yeah. You know, Mark Stoops has a picture. He and he. The whole UK football team and Mark Stoops marched in Lexington and there's a picture with pale Mark Stoops with his red hair with Black Lives Matter shirt on. I remember. That's hilarious.

[Ryan Seacrest]

When this gets far enough away for people to do the documentaries on it and we can go back and look at all Lane Kiffin going down to the. Lane Kiffin and the late Mike Leech going down to the state House in Mississippi to get the flag down. To get the flag changed.

[Matt Jones]

Mike Leech did it.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Mike Leech and I look, I want to foia the emails that it took for them to make that happen because Mike Leach don't. He like, look, I don't need players to play. We all need to recruit. Wow.

[Matt Jones]

I didn't realize Mike Leach did it. That is crazy. Yeah. There's the great. For people in Kentucky will know who this is, but there's a picture of the. The front of the UK football Black Lives Matter March is Mark Stoops and Landon Young, who literally grew up on a farm in, in Lexington. Whitest guy you'll ever see. And the two of them are standing in the front, both with Black Lives Matter shirts on. And that's when I was like, whoa, okay, this is in a completely different place.

[Ryan Seacrest]

It was a time and they rolled back just about everything that came out of that time. And that, that, I think is a fascinating. It's kind of like after Reconstruction. Right? Like, it feels like the Trump era is a rollback of the Obama era. Very similar to post.

[Matt Jones]

Yeah, it is. Let's talk a little sports for a second. Let me ask you about some things going on right now. I love Carl Towns. Carl Towns is, if you get on TikTok is a heck of a converse. People have wild opinions about Carl Towns, but now he' well, the Knicks could easily end up going to the Eastern Conference finals. Carl Towns, people who listen to KSR know famously the 2015 UK basketball team all took a shot to go in 40. And, oh, and he wanted to be part of it. And they were all drinking alcohol and he took a shot of air so he could be with his, with his brothers. That's what he said. That, to me, is Carl Towns in a nutshell.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Carl, you know, he's a little bit disappointing as an NBA player. He is so wildly talented. I live in New York now, and so it's interesting because, like, the Dominicans, they got their guy. That's right. Like, they, they pressed up Carl Town's jerseys with the Dominican flag on them, you know.

[Matt Jones]

Oh, really?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, because, because he's their guy. I just find it so wild that he's out there being guarded by people who are 6 foot 4 and I think.

[Matt Jones]

And he still shoots threes.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, it's like, it's disrespectful that the teams are willing to guard him like that and then the Knicks won't give him the ball, which is even more disrespectful.

[Matt Jones]

Yes, it is. You, you always loved Cal, didn't you?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yes, I, I, I still love him.

[Matt Jones]

You still think he's good?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, I appreciated what he was doing. Like, I, I got it. I felt, I did feel this about Cal, that relative to his peers, he cared more about his players than the average coach did. I firmly believe that. And I think that's, I think even after everything that has happened, that is still probably true.

[Matt Jones]

Do you, you know, I, I've been around it more. I think Covid changed him a little. Bit. Do you think Mike Krzyzewski. Because you've also followed Duke a lot, going and getting one and dones and finally giving in and saying, I'm going to go get Zion and I'm going to go get those guys. I think that changed. Cal. What? Did you ever think you'd see the day that Mike Krzyzewski would be recruiting a one and done kid to a university like Duke where you talk?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah. Well, the only thing was Shashevsky always recruited a lot of one and done kids. He was just arrogant enough to think that he could get him to stay for two. Right. Like he thought he could get Lu all dang to stay for two years. Right. He. He thought that if he got braided right to come, he would stay for two years. Like the whole list of them. But what Mike is above all else and what Duke is, is above all else's. Duke, above all else is a capitalist empire. And Shashevsky is absolutely on board with that. He teaches this class at Fuqua and all of that stuff. And what he wasn't about to be doing is like, Gary Williams was willing to lose. He was willing to lose to do things the way that he wanted to do them. Krzyzewski has never been that guy.

[Matt Jones]

Yeah, that. You're exactly right about that. For people who haven't seen when you had, when you did your HBO show, your rant about Duke, look it up on YouTube. It's one of the greatest things of all time.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Can I tell you my thing about that? Right fast. My favorite thing about that is it's a comedy piece, right? We talk about why it is that black people hate Duke basketball. If you run through it, yes, all the way. But it was the first episode. It's the only episode where we did not do it with a studio audience. And, buddy, you'd have no idea how many people didn't understand that that was supposed to be fun. They thought it was really, and they were mad. Mad.

[Matt Jones]

Oh, interesting. I. Yeah. You know, it's amazing how much people laughing matters in doing things like that. Just the sound of random people. One time we tried to do on my local TV show a Weekend Update parody with Kentucky News, and we did it once. And when you watched it, it was unbelievably painful because people weren't laughing. Then we did it again and had an audience and it was okay. But you've, like when you sit there and you try to make jokes and then there's silence. Maybe it works on the Office, but it doesn't work In a show like that.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Oh, we did something a couple months ago in Raleigh, and we played that clip for a live audience.

[Matt Jones]

Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

And they laughed. And it was one of the most gratifying moments of my life because I finally got to see that piece as it was intended to be. But we just didn't know. Like, we were like, we don't need a laugh track. We don't need. No, no, no.

[Matt Jones]

Yeah, you do.

[Ryan Seacrest]

You do.

[Matt Jones]

You do.

[Ryan Seacrest]

It's not about how funny you are. You just need it.

[Matt Jones]

Bill Belichick and Jordan Hudson. I find it fascinating. I'm gonna be honest with you. I don't care. I know it shouldn't be interesting, but it is to me. You're a smart guy. Is it to you?

[Ryan Seacrest]

It is definitely interesting. Right. And what I find to be interesting about it is I have a good friend who refers to Jordan Hudson as Fancy in a metaphor that I think a lot of our listeners can understand.

[Matt Jones]

From re.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Mac, here's your one chance. Fancy. Don't let me down. This is Fancy's one chance, and Fancy is making the most of it. Fancy got her $8 million in real estate. Fancy is showing up. Like, you look at Fancy's clothes about it.

[Matt Jones]

It's Fancy. Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I was at a party at the super bowl where Belichick pulled up with Fancy, and she's ready for her closeup, man. Like, I am amazed at how prepared she has been to get all this done.

[Matt Jones]

Okay, so what's your favorite part of it? I. I'll give you a couple mine. See what you think. Obviously, everybody focuses on the CBS interview. The fact that Bill Belichick is so smitten, he set at a Holiday Inn Express in Portland, Maine, and went to the Miss Maine contest. That, to me, is pretty amazing. And then the way she was at the UNC spring game on the field in the boots and the jacket, those two things. I was like, man, this woman has him, like, to where he's. He's. He's in it.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Matt. He took a video slash picture on his back on the beach with his feet up and her on his feet. That is my favorite part of this whole thing. Because love I have. You do any old thing. Ain't nothing. Ain't nothing too goofy for love. And he is loving her out loud like she got some nerve.

[Matt Jones]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's true. Because I. I mean, I don't ever. There's not a scenario I could see me posting any woman like, things like that. Could you?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hell, no.

[Matt Jones]

Hell, but you and I are both single. So maybe that's part.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, look, I'd say. And that's what I was about to say. And that's part of the thing. Like, Bill's old. The girlfriend he had for all those years, she would put pictures of him on the Internet. Right. In large part. Because I don't think he really knows how it works because somebody asked him about it in the CBS News interview, and he was kind of like, I didn't know anybody had seen that picture. Picture, right. Like, he's got all these things going on. He has no clue. But she, somewhere along the way, convinced herself that she knew how to do this. And I think she figured out that these jobs are like a lot of jobs. That it's. It's intuitive. She thinks she has an intuitive understanding of how to be the first lady of these things. And she's like, you guys, like, you need to update yosh for the 21st century. You know, she, like, Bill Belichick is like a caveman to her. And so, yeah, what I think is most interesting is this is all the talk we're doing before they play games. I don't think that Bill Belichick changes anything about North Carolina.

[Matt Jones]

You think he's the coach in game one?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Oh, he's the coach. He's the coach.

[Matt Jones]

Do you think it works?

[Ryan Seacrest]

This is a over under 7.5 win program. Like Kentucky is an over under six win program, right?

[Matt Jones]

Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

And Mark Stoops is a. Can get you consistently 8. And now people are used to that, and so they get a little antsy about whether or not eight is good enough for you. I think that Carolina is going to still be a seven and a half win program because I don't know if you guys realize this, but the last time you saw Bill Belichick coach and he wasn't good at it.

[Matt Jones]

That's true. And I think part of what makes it so fascinating is of all the people, you wouldn't pick him as that guy. Right. You wouldn't have thought. I mean, he seemed like such a grouch and such a. Like no fun and all business. And then the video where she's walking in the jacket is hanging off her arms and she looks like she's like 17 years old, like. And he's like walking ahead of her. You know, I ask any man who goes out who's dated you don't walk ahead of the woman. He's way ahead of her. That's partially to me also what makes it fast. I mean, the amount of women Bomani that care about this story in a way they don't care about sports. Like when we talk about it on our show, women flood me with responses. This is like this transcends sports.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Oddly, I think the most interesting level of this, and I've talked about this on my show, is whom one believes is the predator.

[Matt Jones]

Yes.

[Ryan Seacrest]

In this relationship. Because I think.

[Matt Jones]

And it's flip, don't you think?

[Ryan Seacrest]

I think there's a tendency for people to look at it as this older man is the predator dealing with this younger woman. And I think that if you talk to anybody who has an older father and I this is not me, by the way. But if you talk to anybody who has an older father who started dating a younger woman, they do not think that the older man is the predator. Right. Because the, the older father is the one writing all these checks and bankrolling the situation. Like, you'll talk to people whose dads are going like you sitting your dad money. Your dad's sending that money to this little young girl that you messing with.

[Matt Jones]

Yeah. I kind of think though part of me says, listen, I'm not going to criticize that girl.

[Ryan Seacrest]

She.

[Matt Jones]

Maybe it's the fancy part. She seems like to me she made a mess up with the CBS program, but otherwise it feels like she's kind of done what she's. I mean, and maybe they like each other.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I don't know. No, she clearly makes him feel alive.

[Matt Jones]

What is that's good?

[Ryan Seacrest]

I. The thing I have learned in my travels, Matt, I believe that you will agree with me when I say it. It seems very simple, but it's the truth. People do what makes them feel good. The people who spend more money than they have, they feel good when they spend the money. Right. The problem is the good feeling of spending money doesn't last, but they feel good when they spend the money. People do the thing. They're. We're animals in that regard. They do the thing that makes them feel good. And it is clear she makes him feel Tony the tiger.

[Matt Jones]

Great. That line is partially as far I love love. Bomani, I want to ask you just a personal question for a second because you and I, like you said, we both sort of radiate confidence that some people would say goes into arrogance. Yes, we both have had successes, but we've both had failures. Right. I've had some on a lower level failures. You have had some maybe higher profile failures for someone like you and like, like me who's like considers themselves a high achieving person.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yes.

[Matt Jones]

How do you deal with A failure.

[Ryan Seacrest]

So it kind of depends on what we're talking about. Right. So for me, for example, I did a show on HBO called Game Theory. We got two seasons. I think that is an unmitigated success. Like, there was nothing that could happen after that show went on the air because it's so crazy that we got to do the show in the first place. That I would look at that as not being successful because that was the one thing that I was like, we're so lucky to be here. That when I had a deal for six episodes, I never thought about the seventh success was going to be about how I felt about those six. And then we got 10 more and it went the same way. I did a show on ESPN called High Noon with Pablo Torre. That show lasted for about two years before they canceled it. That one I would probably categorize more as a failure. It wasn't. I thought Game Theory was very good. High Noon was not very good. I don't think it was bad, but it was not very good. I think I was somewhat fortunate in terms of how I dealt with it that it ended also right when the world shut down. So there wasn't much time to think about it. There were a million things going on in the end.

[Matt Jones]

I saw you during that time. You and I met in New York during that period. And I. It's the only time in my life I've talked to you that I didn't feel like you were doing great. Yeah, maybe I read that wrong. It just didn't feel like to me, you were that happy. And maybe I'm reading it wrong.

[Ryan Seacrest]

No, no, no, you're right. What. What I was not happy about in that time was I didn't have enough going on. Like, I wasn't hurt by that fact. But I did know this. I was not going to be hosting a television show for ESPN ever again. And I was overqualified for any other job that you have for me to do on TV at that point. That wasn't it. So, no, I. I was a little lost in the wilderness at that point, certainly, and it didn't feel good. But after I flunked out of graduate school, which is probably the biggest thing that I would consider, I did, that was a failure. What I realized was I didn't know you did that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't pass the micro quall the second go round. So all that meant was that maybe, just maybe, I'm not a PhD level micro economist. It's not exactly the biggest insult in the world, right? You know, like, if that's the case, like, I'm still qualified to teach college. I could still. There's somebody who could be a Nobel prize winner that I could teach in econ 101, who will appreciate the fact that they had me. Like, all of those things I had to recognize and that moment taught me I don't have to be the. I don't have to be great at everything that I do. Right. And so when High Noon didn't work, it was just like, okay, well, what are we going to do now? But what I learned was there's no stopping in this. There's no room for self pity. And truly, if you have not slipped up somewhere along the way in this, it's because you're not trying that hard. Like, I've worked with people who have totally had failures and one thing they have in common is they're not trying that hard. Their ambitions aren't the same as mine. Like, do you realize the level of ambition or the. What I learned in this. It sounds dramatic because I'm saying it about myself, but I do believe this took a little bit of courage for me to sit up in a suit at a desk for two seasons telling jokes like I was doing. Yeah, Noah job, the John Oliver job, the Bill Maher job. And I did it. I think, like I would. I was getting better and it could have been better and it wasn't. I'm not saying it was the greatest ever, but we did it and I think we did a good job of it. And I think about that way more than I think about the end of it. That's crazy. That's just setting yourself up for misery.

[Matt Jones]

Totally agree. I had two local TV shows and the first one, I was a failure. It didn't work. I wasn't the easiest to work with, but it made it to where I felt like the second one was good. I see your Emmy back there. We won an Emmy and like, that's. I feel good about it. What's interesting though is you're. It's interesting to hear you say your failure was dropping out or was not getting the second round on the micro econ. When I, When I was doing the wrestling company, we did not get a second season of that documentary, the wrestler show. And there are people who will say to me, you should have had a second season. How did they not give you a second season? I wanted to be like, dude, I bought a regional wrestling company and got Netflix to make a show. Look, I forget the second. I can't even believe they did one. I mean, can you believe that? They did a show. And I got the director who did cheer and the Dallas Cowboys show to do, like, Last chance. You. He did it.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Right.

[Matt Jones]

So to me, it's all about perspective.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Like you said, the HBO show was literally my dream job. I don't care if I ever do a TV show again. I have checked off every box that I ever wanted to do. How in the world do you think you're gonna make me feel like I feel failed by literally achieving a dream? And I don't have a lot of dreams.

[Matt Jones]

You said you didn't want to say his name, so I won't say his name. Actually, I have to. You don't have to say it. He's on these stations. He's on this station. We're on. Clay Travis, who has spent almost a career of picking at you for a long time. He. He really liked it. Without addressing him, what is it like to have a person that every single thing you do, they're sitting there ready to poke you about it and have a mini army of people joining you, people who listen to this. You may have heard Clay earlier today. Heck, he may have talked about Bomani today. He likes to pick at you. Is that. Does it anger you if you saw him? Would you. What would you do?

[Ryan Seacrest]

It is frustrating for me. It is frustrating on a larger level because I believe. And this is something you and I have talked about about, like, our work, and it's what. I've talked about this on the air when I've guest hosted your show. What frustrated me most about him and what they do is I believe they have created a caricature of me that does not really exist. Right. And so I do not work to achieve. I'm not in this to make white people like me. Right. But I also believe that we have more in common than people give us credit for. Like, our friendship is a testament to the fact that I have more in common with the people who listen to you than I think that people realize if they'll just give it a chance and get over whatever trash they got in their heads. And so what frustrates me is when somebody like Clay leans in on what this nonsense is and stops what connections we could actually make amongst ourselves as people. And I know we can because I did radio in Raleigh, and I fought against all of this stuff early. And then by the time I left, I was a fairly beloved figure across the board because they realized, like, we have more in common with each other than probably anybody else that you're going to hear on the air because, again, I'm a product of rural public schools. Like, we were there. And so that's what frustrated me most about them and all of that. What I realized, though, is their army of people is largely bots. Like, when I would look on the Internet, when something from that website would come down about me and who the people are who are talking about me, none of the accounts seem real. Now, I actually stumbled upon Clay Travis at the super bowl this year.

[Matt Jones]

Oh, really? Because, see, I know you both. I'm friends with you. I'm not really friends with him, but I've known him for a long time. What was that like?

[Ryan Seacrest]

I realized in the very short conversation we had that he and I are not built this say, we do these jobs for much different reasons. And this is all wrestling to him. That was.

[Matt Jones]

It is all.

[Ryan Seacrest]

That was the conclusion I came to from him is that to him, this is wrestling, and as long as everybody's making money, what's the big deal?

[Matt Jones]

And so did he, like, try to be your friend when he saw you?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Not.

[Matt Jones]

You don't have to say if you don't want.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Not quite my friend, but I will say that he behaved in a way that misunderstood how seriously I take what I do.

[Matt Jones]

Interesting.

[Ryan Seacrest]

And I don't. I. Yeah.

[Matt Jones]

I've seen you angry, and when you're angry, you're angry. I. Before we wrap up, I chose to.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Walk away, I'll tell you that.

[Matt Jones]

Oh, you did? Okay.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I chose to walk away because, look.

[Matt Jones]

I'd love to have seen that.

[Ryan Seacrest]

You can't give nobody like that, none of you, because that's a victory to them. You know what I mean? Like, all you can do is walk away.

[Matt Jones]

Yeah, that's true. I need to learn that lesson because I, I. People always tell me, man, when these folks come after you, you need to let it go. That's harder for me than it probably is most people, maybe, because I grew up in Eastern Kentucky, and you don't just walk away.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Oh, I've had to learn. I've had to learn.

[Matt Jones]

Yeah. And I can't fight, so I would fight with words. And it's hard for me just to walk away. Well, I'll wrap up because I know you got to go. I want you. One time you said something to me that I still quote, and I don't even remember what the issue was. It had something to do. I can't remember, but you were watching the NBA Finals. It was when LeBron was playing against Durant and the Thunder in The Finals, and something happened, and I called you because I wanted to know your opinion, and you answered the phone, and you said, I'm watching the NBA Finals. What's up? And I asked you some question, and it was basically exactly what your response is. You paused and you go, matt, I love you, but I can't be the black friend you call anytime you want a black opinion. That was basically what you said. It was like, you're calling me because I'm black to ask what I think about this. And it really did change the way I thought. Not just about you, but a lot of things. Explain to me why you said that, and do a lot of people do that with you?

[Ryan Seacrest]

At various points in my life, yes. Like, I think I served that purpose for Dan LeBatard in many ways at points in time. But it was in part also because I think Dan was very fascinated by the idea that a black person could be this smart. Which I never got that vibe off of you, right?

[Matt Jones]

Like, no, no.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah. Like, that's not it. Like, I think Dan couldn't believe that this happened. Like, it was like, wow, look at that. Look at that fish riding a bicycle. Like, he just. Like. Like, he just. You know, like, it. It just. He just hadn't. And to be fair to him, he live in Miami. He don't see no smart people at all, let alone a black one. Like, that's not so much.

[Matt Jones]

You lived in Miami. You hated it, didn't you?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Oh, I mean, it wasn't bad for me because I had bread. Right. But, like, if you don't have bread, I don't. It's. It's a very thoughtless place. That's the best way that I can put it. It's the least awful place I've ever been. But, no, that can happen from time to time. And I think, and white people don't realize this, that there's a tendency to take the black person, you know, and that black person be the spokesman for all the black people. And I. I can't speak for all of them. Right. And so I know there's no harm in. Like, the only reason I would say that to you is because I know there was no harm intended. Because if there was harm intended, I'd have just never took the calls in the first place. Right. But I definitely wasn't about to miss out on the NBA Finals to be your Sherpa. That wasn't. That. That wasn't going down. I got. I'm over here living.

[Matt Jones]

It was a good series, too. I mean, Thunder Thunder Cams was a good series.

[Ryan Seacrest]

It was, But I also. So what's interesting about that for me, though, in a professional capacity, is you can sign me up to be the person that speaks for black people, but you have no idea what's coming after you do that. Anything in that moment. Like, that would happen for dead often. He would call me on this show to be the black person and he would not necessarily get the thing that he thought was coming.

[Matt Jones]

Yeah. Do you get angry when people are asked to be the representative for black voices and you don't think they're representative? Like, I'm just picking a person. But it could be a lot of people. Candace Owens or something like that.

[Ryan Seacrest]

So what I will say about that is with somebody like Candace Owens, the people who are doing that are being very particular and calculated in what they're doing. So that. That doesn't make me nearly as angry, but I do have a twinge of what should I do when they call me to be this person? Because God knows who the next call is. Right.

[Matt Jones]

That's interesting. Like, if you don't do it, who will they get?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah. Like this next person might not actually be smart. I may agree with that person. But that person's back. Like, there's a lot of things that kind of come down to it. But like, I did what it's so funny, like being the black guy on television, because this was a non black topic. But I did something, a CNN hit about Trump and Saban and the Nil Commission. And I said something about, like, basically, they don't need to cut down on the money. They're playing paying players. Because I'm like, hey, man, there are always going to be people out there who. Who love to trick off on college students. And there was this pause from the two hosts. It was two women because they weren't ready for that. And then one of them goes, no doubt.

[Matt Jones]

They said, no doubt.

[Ryan Seacrest]

She said, no doubt. Because that seemed like something you say after somebody says something about tricky. Yeah, that seemed like the appropriate answer.

[Matt Jones]

They'll call you for the answer they want and then you don't give it. Like, so I've had that happen twice with the New York Times. They called me once to say, do you think Andy Beshear can get elected president? Then I was playing the role of Mr. Kentucky Guy, right? And I went, no, because you have to understand the unique circumstances of him. His dad was the governor. Everyone hated Matt Bevin. And then we've had these huge tragedies that he's been really Good during. I don't think that translates nationally. And it was clear they wanted me to say, yes, he could be president. Then the second time was the Stephen A. Smith New York Times called me to ask about whether or not he could be president in sports. Right? Like Sports World say, probably the same article. And I was like, no, nobody wants him. Like, it's, he's respecting the sports community, but nobody says Stephen A. Smith. And both times I doubt my quotes probably won't get used because I didn't give them what they wanted in that moment.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, the, the question I would ask people about Stephen A. Smith for president, and I'm telling you, man, I get it from everywhere. Like, you'd be surprised some of the calls I've gotten when people. And I'm like, I'm down to talk to you about it. But I'm not going to say anything bad about him, first of all, because I don't, I don't think.

[Matt Jones]

Because everyone says he's, I don't know him, but everyone says he's a nice guy off the air, he's a decent dude.

[Ryan Seacrest]

But the, but the part of this story that is problematic and ridiculous is not his fault. Yeah, right. Like, the idea that we're entertaining, it is not his fault. Even if he said I should be the president, us entertaining, it is not his fault. And so if he, look, if he thinks he can be the president, then bless his heart, right? Like, I'm not gonna be the one that says anything bad about him in the course of it, but it is why I just would throw this out to somebody at this point. Why him and not me? Not because I want it, but I'm just curious what, what people think, like, what their explanation is. Now, if your explanation is, well, he's a lot more famous than you. Cool, that makes perfect sense. But acknowledge what that means, right? Acknowledge, like, what that says about the whole situation. So that's where it always comes down to for me is just kind of like, how do we get here? Like, you people who are entertaining this. Why. Why did you pick this guy?

[Matt Jones]

It's the movie Idiocracy. It just came 20 years, 20 years earlier.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Bomani, again, thank you very much. I would say this right fast, though. The thing I'll give Stephen a credit for, you'll notice this, this, he doesn't say anything really critical to Trump. He has not said anything critical of Republicans. He has just picked the thing that we all can get behind. These Democrats, they stink. They stink. And everybody's like, hell, yeah, that man tells you that's right.

[Matt Jones]

That's the easiest thing. It's the easiest thing to say because in some ways it's true.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yes.

[Matt Jones]

Like the mainstream Democrats are out of touch. We can all say that. Whereas, you know, I've learned, you can take. People ask, well, how do you have conservative listeners? Here's the answer. You can talk, take liberal positions. Just be very careful about taking shots at Trump. The person. Yes, right. You can say, let's use the example of the Qatari plane. Do you think the president should take a plane, $400 million from a foreign country and then keep it when it's over? No. But if I say, do you think Trump should take a plane? Different conversation.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Right.

[Matt Jones]

So the, the key is as much as possible, leave him out of it. Now, sometimes I don't, but that to me is the key. And Stephen A. Is the king of that.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah. Well, the other part too is conservatives can listen to someone with our politics more easily and readily than liberals can listen to someone with Trump's politics. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but that is true for sure.

[Matt Jones]

And kids and conservatives. I can do it because I have a country accent. Yes, Right. When's the last time you've seen a white country male on TV speaking Democrat politics?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Right. Right. I can pull it off.

[Matt Jones]

You used to say that you thought people in North Carolina would listen to you because you were black and not a white liberal. Because they really hate white liberal.

[Ryan Seacrest]

They do.

[Matt Jones]

Especially educated.

[Ryan Seacrest]

They do. They hate them and they don't know how to talk to them. But the other part is when they've got something, I'll say they've got something. For example. Yeah. They ran an end around on us about Biden a year ago and what his, what his physical, physical and mental constitution was. Right.

[Matt Jones]

Does that make you mad, by the way? It does me now.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Furious.

[Matt Jones]

Because I liked Biden. I don't blame him. I blame the people around him.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Do you? And the reason the people around you do that is for their own jobs. Like, they were all, we got a history of this happening with politicians. Like, this isn't the first time this has happened. But when that, when that went down, I was doing the CNN show and, you know, they tend to balance it out. And it was, somebody was blaming, somebody was pushing back on the idea that the media was to blame for hiding this about Biden from us. And I was like, no, they either, they have to be the blame. Right. Either they didn't know which is a problem or they knew and didn't tell us, which is a problem. But you got once you're willing to say that the conservatives are more likely to be like, oh, okay. And I think that to be fair, goes for liberals. Also, like the liberals can appreciate the conservative that are right for the Atlantic.

[Matt Jones]

For example, or the Bulwark or those sites. Yes they do. You're exactly right. The John McCain's of the world, for lack of a better.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, the five of them that are left.

[Matt Jones]

Yeah, there's not many. But Monty, thank you very much for doing this and if I ever get another show, you'll be the first guest on that one.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey brother, same here man. I appreciate you.

[Matt Jones]

So that's been Episode one of the Matt Jones Show. You can get the entirety of the conversation on podcast. Look up for Matt Jones show because there's more to it than you heard and we'll be back next Thursday with another conversation with someone interesting. This has been the first ever episode of the Matt Jones show on whs.

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