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- [00:00]
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Matt Jones
This is Interrupted by Matt Jones on Newsradio 840 WHAS now, here's Matt Jones.
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Tommy Vitor
It's episode 12 of Interrupted by Matt Jones, presented by Cornbread Hemp. This is the good life. We are excited today to have as a guest someone that I've known, you know, for the last couple years named Tommy Vitor. He works for Pod Save America, worked on the Obama campaign and worked in the White House. He is interesting to me not just because of that background, but also because he's been one of the critics of the Democratic Party and how things have developed in recent years and how they've kind of become detached from places like Kentucky. And so I wanted to discuss with him a lot of those issues. And you know, with all the stuff on the Epstein files, this is a guy who deals with Washington every day. So I wanted to bring Tommy on and get his take on some stuff. All right, now, happy to be joined by Tommy Vitor. That's how people pronounce your name like 10 different ways. What's the right way?
- [01:42]
Matt Jones
You got it. You nailed it. Vitor.
- [01:44]
Tommy Vitor
Vitor. That's what my producer said and I'm glad he got it right.
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Matt Jones
He got it. I've given up carrying long ago. It was a great way to filter out calls back in the day when we had a landline.
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Tommy Vitor
Oh yeah. It'd be like he doesn't really know who I am.
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Matt Jones
Mr. Viator there.
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Tommy Vitor
I like it. Well, Tommy worked obviously for the Obama campaign. Now does POD administration. Now does POD Save America. Probably the most successful podcast on the left, I would think. Tommy, there are so many things I want to talk to you about, but we might as well just kind of get started with, with the news. And I, I remember when the first I learned of Epstein and all the Epstein things I thought, like a lot of things in life, there was probably less to it than everybody wanted there to be because fiction is often greater than reality. And that I thought there was probably less conspiracy than people thought. And then the way this administration and Congress has acted now has me wondering if there was a lot more to it. I'm almost kind of drifting into conspiracy world, which I don't like. Where are you on all this and how do you explain the actions of the Trump administration and everybody with the Epstein files?
- [02:58]
Matt Jones
I have gone on the same journey as you did and first of all, thanks for having me. I, I always assumed that it was basically the conspiracy was hiding in plain sight. Like this guy had a lot of connections, he had a lot of money. He used those connections and that money to get away with horrific crimes. DOJ said he had like a thousand victims.
- [03:18]
Tommy Vitor
That's.
- [03:18]
Matt Jones
I don't know.
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Tommy Vitor
That's unbelievable.
- [03:19]
Matt Jones
I know. I don't know if that's individuals he harmed or like, that includes sort of like images he downloaded, etc. But still like an unbelievable number. So that's what I assumed the what happened. Obviously, you know, his death in 2019 while in prison is incredibly suspicious. None of the explanations made sense. Like there was no tape of the cell area. Then all of a sudden they found one. So like the story was a little weird, but I'm like, I'm with you. I mean Trump's reaction to just trying to shut down this story has fully red pilled me to believe that there is something in these files that he is really worried about.
- [03:56]
Tommy Vitor
Whether it's about him or political consultant. I mean you were someone who would give advice to presidents. They ran on the let's release it. Trump said it many times, his son said it many times. Presumably he knew at that point what he had or had not done. Did he think everyone would just forget or like, what do you think happened?
- [04:20]
Matt Jones
What's interesting is if you look back at his interviews, he'd get asked kind of like a series of things. They'd be like, will you release the alien files? He'd be like, yeah, JFK files, sure. And then his answer on Epstein was always a little more halting and a little more circumspect. And you're right that like J.D. vance was like, yeah, we got to do that. He told Theo Vaughan, yeah, we got to release the Epstein files. Don Jr. Was ranting and raving about them. Cash Patel, now the FBI director, Dan Bongino, the deputy FBI director. Those guys were like, they made it a cause. Because I think they probably realized when they talked about it on their podcasts, they got a lot of clicks. Yeah, I assume Trump just thought he could like tell his flock what to do at any point and they would listen. But it's not going that way and.
- [04:59]
Tommy Vitor
That, okay, so that's I you. For years that has been the case, kind of whatever Trump said 40% of Americans would just do. This seems different. And I'm sort of surprised. Why? I mean, he's, he, I am not a fan, but he's done many things that are controversial, taken many positions that are antithetical to what you would think Republican beliefs are, and people have gone with him. Why do you think this is different? Why do you think this is a line people are drawing? Is it just the horrendousness of the allegations?
- [05:36]
Matt Jones
I think that for some of his base, it is the horrendousness of the allegations in this feeling that there are children being harmed somewhere and he needs to take down this pedophile ring to protect them. I mean, that's kind of like core to the Q and on theory as well. I think for others, though, Trump's appeal was, I'm going to burn down a system that you hate and I'm going to take down the people that you hate, the elites. And now he seems to be covering up for them. And I think that is just undercutting his core message in a way that we've never really seen before. You.
- [06:07]
Tommy Vitor
Let'S go back. You worked for Obama and it's almost impossible to not see the way, even though they're vastly different people, the way Obama was able to capture the Democratic Party, not in a cult like way, but in a way that voters like me just fell in love with him. And Trump has done it a different way with the Republican Party. But how do you compare the, the appeal those two people have had to their party as a whole? How do you see their, their, their similar similarities and differences?
- [06:41]
Matt Jones
I think what's remarkable about Trump is that for the duration of his time on the scene, he is basically been able to put up like Kim Jong Il, Saddam Hussein numbers with his base.
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Tommy Vitor
Yeah.
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Matt Jones
And Democrats liked Obama, but they were quick to let us know when we pissed him off. You know what I mean? Like, how would they let you know?
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Tommy Vitor
Like, what would they do?
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Matt Jones
They wouldn't turn out in midterms. You know, people would raise, you know, concerns in Congress. You know, I just think there was like more dissent in the Democratic Party because as you know very well, like the Democratic Party is a far more motley collection of different people and groups and demographics. Right. I mean, the Republican Party is pretty, it's less homogenous now under Trump. We should give him that credit for that. Especially this, the last election. He Brought in Latino voters, black voters, but you know, the base is pretty homogenous. I think Biden. I'm sorry, Biden. I think Obama. Look, our message, our yard signs in 2008 just said hope. Right?
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Tommy Vitor
Like that was very simple. One word.
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Matt Jones
Yes, simple. The appeal was to kind of the better angels that we can.
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Tommy Vitor
And he reflected an idea of America that I think especially on the left, but even moderates, even some people on the right would like to think America is. Here's a person who came from very little multi ethnic background and he can reach this highest thing. That's like what America wants to be in some ways. Yeah, I.
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Matt Jones
Look, I think there's a lot of people that love America, love our country, everything. It stands for its ideals, but are ashamed of the history, you know, of slavery and Jim Crow and segregation. And there was, I think, a very naive suggestion, not by Obama, but by commentators, that Obama would lead to a post racial America.
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Tommy Vitor
Yeah, this fixes now we're good. Like now we don't have to think about all that stuff anymore. We elected Obama.
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Matt Jones
Yeah, exactly.
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Tommy Vitor
And that still gets brought up sometimes, by the way. Well, if you, if we elected Obama, we can't be all that bad, right?
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Matt Jones
Yeah. And it's like, well, you know, someone should tell them about reconstruction. Right. I mean, yeah, we tend to kind of lurch forward and take things, go back and forth.
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Tommy Vitor
When you met Obama, when did you meet him? You were, was. Where was it in his rise, et cetera.
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Matt Jones
So I got a job on his campaign in 2004, on the Senate campaign.
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Tommy Vitor
Okay. Do you know Danielle Gray?
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Matt Jones
Oh, my God, yeah, of course I do.
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Tommy Vitor
So I clerked with Danielle Gray on the DC circuit and oh my God.
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Matt Jones
I love Daniel Gray.
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Tommy Vitor
One of my friends, he worked for Merrick Garland and I worked for Ray Randolph, who was the worst. But I was friends with all the Garland people. And Danielle became one of my good friends. And I remember she told me one day, there's this guy who's going to run for Senate named Barack Obama. I'm thinking about going and working for him. And he came to D.C. and I went to lunch with them.
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Matt Jones
No way.
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Tommy Vitor
And I had never heard of the guy. And I remember thinking, this dude's kind of impressive, you know, Never would have thought president. Did you have that same thought when you kind of got got with him?
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Matt Jones
Yeah, I mean, look, I was a kid, right. I was 23, 24. I remember it was a late night in the office. I was sitting on the floor. I didn't have shoes on which was cool. And I was putting together, like, press packets, like physical copies of paper. And he walked in and I was like, oh, hey, nice to meet you. You know, that's always the first impression you dream of making with your boss. Right? Like, was sweaty because the air conditioning would click off at 6, so we just, like, sweat bullets through our clothes. But, yeah, no, I mean, I think I was there with him, you know, sort of the summer before that DNC convention speech. That was the.
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Tommy Vitor
It's not a red state or not a red America. Blue America. It's all. Yeah, that. That speech.
- [10:11]
Matt Jones
Yeah. And, you know, look, I was. I was with him. I. One of my jobs was I would go to every single event that we did downstate in Illinois, and I would, you know, when we had reporters traveling with us, I drive the press van, which, you know, Republicans like to make fun of me for now. But it's like I worked my way up. And so I saw him at every event. And I would see him in, you know, predominantly black audiences in Chicago and then the whitest of the white, you know, farms in Peoria or wherever it was. And I could just see him connecting with people, and I could see the appeal. Then you fast forward to Boston and that dnc.
- [10:42]
Tommy Vitor
But let me go back to that. Before he gets asked to do the Boston convention. He's running against. What was his name? Alan something. What was the guy?
- [10:50]
Matt Jones
Alan Keys. There's a series of Republicans.
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Tommy Vitor
It was going to be Mike Ditka. Right. At one point, which would have been hard because I'm a big Bears fan. But was there a moment when you were driving the van in Peoria where you said, I could see this guy being president?
- [11:06]
Matt Jones
Yes, there was. There were. I mean, look, after the DNC speech, it was a big part of the conversation around him, whether he liked it or not. But before that, I mean, he just sort of had a unique temperament that I think is valuable in politics, where he just tried to meet people where they were at. He tried to persuade them. He didn't, you know, condescend to them. Like, he just had an ability to connect with people that looked nothing like him, that seemed nothing like him. And that was inspiring. I mean, look, I work for John Edwards in 2004, by the way. Danielle Gray is a. Is a Duke fan. You know that, right?
- [11:43]
Tommy Vitor
No, I know. I mean, that's. We used to fight about it. She was a Duke fan and I was Kentucky, and we would get that year on the D.C. circuit. For me, I mean, you have to understand, like, I couldn't stand my boss. And so I ended up spending all my time with clerks. I got to know John Roberts. He couldn't have been nicer to me during that year. Merrick Garland, David Tatel, and then the clerks. And Danielle was maybe my favorite person. Danielle and a guy named Eric Berger, who was also a Garland clerk. The three of us, like, I. I spent time with him all the time. So when she said she was going to work for this guy, I was immediately intrigued. But I never thought he was going to be president. I mean, it's just a whole nother level.
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Matt Jones
Yeah, look, no. Anyone who tells you they would have. They saw, you know, the jump from 2004 to 2008 presidency is lying or they were, you know, doing fantasy camp. But, you know, you saw that. You could see the talent in him, you know, the ability to communicate, the ability to give a speech and reach people. And he also was sort of uniquely positioned at that moment, having been post the Iraq war before it started, as it was clearly becoming a disaster.
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Tommy Vitor
Yeah. And that was not a position of a lot of even Democrats then. It kind of was an all in thing. So he gives the speech in Boston and then you said he has any unique talent being able to meet people where they are. I think that's true. Democrats, certainly until the 2024 election, have not. They've lost that talent, in my opinion. They stop. You and I have had conversations about this. They became at some point judgy and less willing to show grace and move. Do you agree with that sentence? And then if so, why do you think that happened?
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Matt Jones
Yeah. And. Well, I think sometimes it's helpful to be precise in these conversations because I wonder if what we're really talking about is the treatment of people by online mobs versus actual elected officials.
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Tommy Vitor
Okay.
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Matt Jones
You know, I totally agree with you and I've talked about this a lot. Like, there was a period of time, let's say 2016 through a year or two ago maybe, where there was this sentiment where you were just honestly not allowed to converse with people that you disagreed with. Like, you couldn't. You was always about, like, how dare you platform that person.
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Tommy Vitor
Yeah, that was a big word. Platform people.
- [13:53]
Matt Jones
Yeah, platforming. How dare you go on a show Like. Right. I. I've talked about how my friend asked me to come on a barstool show in 2018. I said no because I was kind of like, look, man, you know, our. Our audience would kill me because of some things Dave Portnoy said, and I really, really regret that. And I find it embarrassing that I let myself kind of be like, cowed by the online mob. And I've taken a bunch of steps to kind of affirmatively go the other direction and try to do stuff like that.
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Tommy Vitor
Like, but it's easy to say that you, you regret it, but in the moment, because I've been there, when the online left mob comes at you, it can be hard. Like, it can be really hard because you, there's a level of like, it's hard to defend yourself because no one sticks up for the moderate. You know, like, that's the worst position you can be in some ways online.
- [14:47]
Matt Jones
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. No, it drives me crazy. Look, intra party stuff always feels the worst because I don't care what Ben Shapiro says about me. Right. But, like, I do care what kind of people that, you know, in the party that I share a belief system with. And it is really annoying when people, like, tell you that talking to someone else means you suddenly hold their views. I mean, like, that's so stupid. In what context does that exist anywhere else outside of, like, progressive?
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Tommy Vitor
And you're in. Barack Obama would go on with Bill O'Reilly or.
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Matt Jones
Right.
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Tommy Vitor
Like, I mean, he, he, he, he would do those things. So do you think we've gotten past that? I mean, I, I know I've seen people going on Theo Vaughn and, and, and, and Joe Rogan and Barstool and. Do you think that that sort of stopping people from talking to the general public, do you think that's ending?
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Matt Jones
I think it's, at the moment it is. I don't think that, you know, we haven't repaired all the damage, but it's starting. Right. You're seeing like, Pete Buddha, Judge doing a bunch of these shows. Jon Favreau and I went on the Flagrant podcast the other day that Andrew Schultz. Yeah, Andrew Schultz. And by the way, those guys are not like MAGA in any way. They're just like, I think they're kind of independent to vote over Democrats and Republicans.
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Tommy Vitor
Yeah.
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Matt Jones
Kind of pigeonholed in this, you know, I hate this term. We need a new term, the manosphere space. Right. But like, we know Bernie went on Joe Rogan a couple of years ago. Rogan basically endorsed Bernie. And then people attacked Bernie for some of the things Joe Rogan had said about the trans community. And my argument to those people would be have Bernie go on his show and talk about it and debate them.
- [16:17]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, I mean, that's, I sometimes will fight with, with liberals. Okay. So I, you know, when I thought about running For Senate. I was very worried about getting through a primary with the liberal people, specifically in Louisville, because I was a Kentucky guy and, you know, and so I got them to put Tommy, all of the liberal leaders in Louisville in a room like 60 people. And I said, I want to just, let's, let's talk. Can this work? And it went horrible. Now part of it's my fault. My argumentative side came out and it just didn't, it didn't work. But part of it was also I said, I'm not going to be like outspoken against coal because I come from coal country and I can cut our losses in coal country, but I can't be out there being against coal when I grew up in coal country. And that was sacrilege. Do you think it is hard? I feel like it is harder on our side to take any position that is not, that is not sort of the exact, exactly what the left wants without just being sold out as a person completely. Or do you think that's changing?
- [17:27]
Matt Jones
I think both sides struggle with this. I think that you are always going to be pulled by activists or interest groups or just well meaning people to take a maximalist position. And one of the hardest things to argue is that by taking the maximalist position you will not be elected and therefore you could do harm to that issue. Right. Like if you went hard on coal and then you lose your election, are you going to do more value to Democrats than if you took a more moderate position and got elected?
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Tommy Vitor
Well, Joe Manchin is a perfect example of that.
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Matt Jones
Yeah.
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Tommy Vitor
When people would go after Joe Manchin in West Virginia, I would always say, who do you think is going to replace him? Like if you get, if you make Joe Manchin, you think they're going to get somebody more liberal in West Virginia, like he's the only one that can win. But I, it doesn't feel like people think like that enough in our party.
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Matt Jones
Yeah. I think two things can be true. I think I'd much rather have Joe Manchin than the alternative. And also he could be an annoying dick, you know, so that's where I stand.
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Tommy Vitor
Is he annoying? I've. He, he really recruited me and he was always. Yeah, he was always nice to me.
- [18:32]
Matt Jones
Fine. He just took some really stupid positions. Like he opposed like the child tax credit, something that would have enormously benefited poor kids in his state.
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Tommy Vitor
Yeah.
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Matt Jones
Because he thought like moms were cycling off and like buying drugs. It was just a very dumb kind of racist view on apology.
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Tommy Vitor
But do you think the country's better now? That he lost. And there's Jim justice is in.
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Matt Jones
Nope. And I like his dog, but I don't like him.
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Tommy Vitor
Yeah, you like his dog. All right. So Obama year, did you work in the White House the whole time?
- [19:01]
Matt Jones
I did four years. I did. I left in sort of March of 2013. I was a spokesman in the press office for a couple of years. Then I got promoted to the national security staff, and I was the NSC press guy for a couple years. And then, you know, four years of that, and then, you know, the campaign, I was just cooked.
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Tommy Vitor
So just on a human level, because, I mean, you live in the political world, and I. But, like, there's a lot of people listening to this who just would think working at the White House is the coolest thing in the world. Is that true?
- [19:32]
Matt Jones
Oh, absolutely, yes. Look, I mean, it is getting to work. I'm the luckiest bastard in the world. Like, I got to start working for Barack Obama in 2004. I owe everything in my career to him and the association with him and his willingness to, like, bring this dumb kid who he met sitting barefoot on the floor, like, all the way with him to the White House. Right. In terms of the job itself, like, it is the most interesting, exciting job I will ever have. If you're, like, a curious person to work in the government, like, you. When you can just kind of call anyone in the United States government and kind of ask them to give you information or explain something, like, it's an incredible opportunity.
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Tommy Vitor
So give me example day, Tommy. Like, like, you walk into the office, give me average day in the life of work of Tommy Vitor in the. In the White House.
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Matt Jones
I mean, it sort of depends on whether there's a rolling disaster or about to be a rolling disaster in the world. But, like, you know, wake up, what, six? Something like that. Just inhale as much information as you can. Like, I would have, like, NPR streaming as I'm in the shower. You're listening to something on the bus on the way to work. You get there, you have your morning meeting. You kind of figure out what's going on. Like, the biggest part of my day was every day there was a. There used to be a White House briefing as a guy named Robert Gibbs, the press secretary, then another guy named Jay Carney, and you had to make sure they were prepared for what they might get asked at the podium later today. So you're kind of, like, cruising on that all day. And then you have incoming from reporters who are asking you questions about God knows what Benghazi you know, like Afghanistan. Yeah, those are. Those are the things I was focused on. And then there's the thing that you're trying to proactively put out. Often for me, that was like, domestic stuff, like health care or something. So it wasn't kind of my bucket of issues. But, you know, when there was a foreign trip coming up or a foreign leader meeting, it was stuff like that. And then when Obama would have a big interview or press conference, like, sometimes they would call in me to, like, be a part of that prep. Although usually it was like, my bosses, who are more likely to be there.
- [21:31]
Tommy Vitor
When you move to national security, I mean, that's heavy stuff. So do you. When you, like with Benghazi, do you have to learn. I mean, you have to learn about all these areas that presumably you didn't know a lot about before.
- [21:44]
Matt Jones
That's the most interesting thing. I took over in, like, 2011, shortly after I got there. I think it was after I got there, like, there was this horrific earthquake in Haiti. A couple of days later, I find myself, you know, in the back of a C17, flying down to Port au Prince and sleeping on the floor of the embassy there for like a week, trying to, like, kind of coordinate media inquiries and tell people about what we're doing down there because, you know, you're just trying to keep the American people apprised of where their tax dollars are going to, so they support it. Right. But yeah, then, like, when there's a crisis happened, like the Arab Spring happened shortly after. You know, I remember there were. There were some weeks when, when something was crazy in the world and it was happening in the middle of the night, the White House situation room would call you and, man, there's no, like, more startling way to get out of bed like, these days. For me, it's the nanit. For those who don't have kids, who don't know, this is like the intercom that tells you every time your kid chirps or moves over.
- [22:35]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, I don't have kids. That sounds awful, but okay, you know.
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Matt Jones
You know, it means you never sleep. But, like, I'd get calls at 3 in the morning and it'd be like, sir, the something, something square. And Bahrain fell to the, you know, protesters. I'm like, what the hell am I going to do with this information? I guess I'll get up now at two in the morning and go to the office.
- [22:54]
Tommy Vitor
Wow.
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Matt Jones
But, yeah, no, it was fascinating because you get. You get drawn into meetings with very senior people and you just learn a fascinating stuff. From experts, and that includes, like, you know, secretary of State, but also all the intelligence. You just get a fire hose of that in a crisis. So.
- [23:11]
Tommy Vitor
But you ever pinch yourself then at that point and go, I am sitting here working on, you know, the Arab Spring. I'm sitting here working with a president. I'm sitting here seeing this devastation in Haiti, and this is what I. I'm supposed to do something about it. That would seem to be just for people who are thoughtful, like, an overwhelming amount of responsibility.
- [23:34]
Matt Jones
Yeah, it is. And luckily I was young and dumb and didn't think about it enough. With the benefit of hindsight, it is a little overwhelming. I mean, look, again, I was a younger person, so I had, you know, sort of layers between me and the president usually. But there were definitely times when you sit around in a meeting, especially national security meeting, whether it was like the. The way they do it is there's something called the deputies Committee. So it's like the deputies of all the relevant agencies, the deputy secretary of state, the deputy defense secretary, they have a meeting, they try to get as much work done as possible. Then it gets kicked up to the principals Committee. So that's the secretaries of all the relevant agencies. Then the president has a final meeting and signs off. So you sit through all of those, and there were definitely times where I was sitting around hearing people debate something, and I was like. Like, you have this feeling like, there's got to be another meeting happening somewhere else. Right.
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Tommy Vitor
Somebody's gonna have to tell us that, like, the adults are in charge.
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Matt Jones
Yeah. You know, like, what am I doing here?
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Tommy Vitor
Tell me one thing about Barack Obama that the average person doesn't know that you think it would be good if they did know.
- [24:36]
Matt Jones
I think what was pretty remarkable about him as a boss is like, the kind of even keel. Like, the knock on him is like, oh, he's professorial, he's too calm, whatever. But, like, he never yelled at us, you know, and that's rare in politics. There's.
- [24:53]
Tommy Vitor
He never really got angry.
- [24:56]
Matt Jones
Like, he maybe did it again, the inner circle, maybe he was screaming at the chief of staff. But like, every. I worked for the guy for nine years, and, like, what you'd get was, you know, disappointed dad. You know, it's like, I'm.
- [25:08]
Tommy Vitor
That's worse.
- [25:08]
Matt Jones
I'm not going to punish you, but, like, you let me down. And, boy, that was crushing. But, like, I think that says something about the character of the guy that, like, again, there's a lot of screamers, there's a lot of people in politics.
- [25:18]
Tommy Vitor
There are a lot of scream. Okay, give me some screamers. Can you give me some screamers who are notorious Republican or Democrat? Who are notorious screamers?
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Matt Jones
Joe Biden.
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Tommy Vitor
Joe Biden was a screamer.
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Matt Jones
Yeah, he gets a little prickly.
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Tommy Vitor
Well, how. Joe Biden is a screamer. I didn't realize that. Well, it's good. Maybe people be glad to know because they didn't think he was awake. He screams sometimes, all right.
- [25:39]
Matt Jones
He gets a little spicy in meetings, you know, I don't know if he yelled or not, but like, Chuck Schumer was kind of notorious for kind of like locking his staff into a conference room and being like, figure out how to get me on the front page of the paper.
- [25:51]
Tommy Vitor
Chuck Schumer kind of yelled at me. He yelled at me once. Yeah, he. When he called me, I went to Washington and met with him because he didn't want me to run against Amy McGrath. And he kind of.
- [26:04]
Matt Jones
How'd that go?
- [26:05]
Tommy Vitor
Well, I mean, I told him, Amy's going to lose by 20 points. And he was like, oh, no way. She's got. I said, look, whether I run or not, she's losing by 20 points either way. And. But he got really on me and he was like, if you'll wait your turn, we'll have you run somewhere else. And I said, I mean, I don't work for you. But he sort of. He had an air of almost he should get to decide who runs everywhere. And it was, it was odd because I was meeting him for the first time and he was like such a lecturer. It was insane to me, Matt.
- [26:37]
Matt Jones
And that's, I think, a real problem in the Democratic Party generally. Like telling young, energetic, exciting people to wait your turn. Yeah, Democrats need to stop doing that.
- [26:47]
Tommy Vitor
Why do you think they do that?
- [26:49]
Matt Jones
Because I don't know, there's. We have a gerontocracy problem. Like Republicans, I think, have six year statute of limitations. Statute limitations, the wrong word. You know what I'm saying? You can only serve six years as committee chair.
- [27:02]
Tommy Vitor
Oh, they do. And we don't do that. Right?
- [27:04]
Matt Jones
We don't do that. And I think we should see that.
- [27:06]
Tommy Vitor
I mean, we're supposed to be the party of young people. Why would you not do that? I mean, that seems. Haven't we had three people die in office this, this term?
- [27:15]
Matt Jones
I think the last, last eight that died in office were Democrats.
- [27:18]
Tommy Vitor
See, that's crazy to me.
- [27:20]
Matt Jones
I mean, like, insane.
- [27:22]
Tommy Vitor
That is no wonder Trump did better with younger people than a Republican had done in a long time. I mean, there's. They have. When I think of Republican spokespeople, I think of, for the most part, younger people. And with Democrats, I still see Chuck Schumer and I saw him 25 years ago.
- [27:39]
Matt Jones
Here's the most generous interpretation. I think when you dedicate your life to politics and you run for office and it's the thing you've done, and it's your entire identity and your social group and your reason for existing. Retiring is not just about losing, leaving a job. It's like ending your life, in a sense.
- [27:56]
Tommy Vitor
But isn't that not what's supposed to be? Politics are. It's not supposed to be a career. It's. Or at least, I mean, at least the cert. Like the serving in office. When did we decide? And again, I like a lot of these people, but I mean, Patrick Leahy was in office for like, why? Chuck Grassley's in office forever. Like, why. I mean, there are other people that can do it.
- [28:16]
Matt Jones
I'm just trying to get into, like, the psychology of their heads. I totally agree with you. I think, like, you know, George Washington walked away. Right. We should see that as a noble.
- [28:24]
Tommy Vitor
Exactly. He seemed like he did an all right job. I mean, not as good as Trump, according to him, but.
- [28:28]
Matt Jones
Yeah, right.
- [28:30]
Tommy Vitor
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- [29:44]
Matt Jones
Bill was great. Look, Bill. Bill gave us this first real opportunity, which was just kind of like doing this thing as a hobby. Keep it in 1600. It was a show that covered the 2016 race. We were catastrophically wrong about everything. Everyone thought that Trump couldn't possibly win, that Hillary was, you know, couldn't lose Pennsylvania. And then the election happens, and everyone is devastated. We're devastated. And one of the things we felt in watching and covering that election was just absolute frustration at how bad the media coverage was. Like, remember, this was a time when you turn on CNN and it would be a panel of, like, nine people, and it'd be a bunch of Democrats screaming at that guy, Jeffrey Lord, who.
- [30:23]
Tommy Vitor
Is like, Jeffrey Lord. Yeah, yeah. He was the old guy. He was the only person that would stand up for Trump, and he ended up being able to win it.
- [30:32]
Matt Jones
He was right, and we were wrong. But, like, you'd watch an hour of that, and you'd be like, I feel dumber. I feel depressed. Like, I didn't talk about anything substantive. So we wanted to start not just a show, but an entire company built around trying to give people, like, more, you know, substantive coverage of the election. Talk in a way that normal people talk, but then also just be openly partisan and honest about our bias and encourage people to be activists in their own life and to get engaged.
- [30:57]
Tommy Vitor
Well, that's kind of become the standard now. Why do you think everybody was wrong about Trump? I mean, there's a guy here in Kentucky named Joe Sanka who's a reporter, and back when I did another version of this podcast many years ago, I would have him on, and he said to me, like, after the Iowa caucus, Donald Trump will be the next president. And I just would get so mad at him and say, no way. There's no way that can happen. I didn't think he'd win the Republican primary. What did we all get so wrong in 2016 about the rise of Trump?
- [31:28]
Matt Jones
Look, I mean, part of the certainty with which you heard, like, kind of the pundit class, myself included, talking about the outcome was like, all the polling was way off. Right. I mean, there just. There was this, you know, there. It just seemed like Hillary was running away with it in all these states, and there were just a lot of numbers that were just catastrophically wrong. I also think, like, stepping back a bit, um, it's when you're super engaged in this stuff, like, this is the biggest divide in politics, is freaks like us who read about politics every day. Normal people that just like engage once a month for a couple hours. And you know, we're like, oh, he's a con man. He's this, he lied about that. And they're just like, you know what? All these guys lie.
- [32:08]
Tommy Vitor
Yes.
- [32:08]
Matt Jones
He seems different and at least he's going to try something new. You're exactly what's going on. You know what I mean? And like, I should have been more attuned to that appeal. And also I think some of the political deficiencies of Hillary Clinton, because we had run against her and we had defeated her. And I think, you know, there was this anti establishment sentiment out there of eight years of Obama and we were like, here is the most establishment figure we could possibly offer you.
- [32:30]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. The. I actually think people follow politics more now than they did back then. I mean, I think Trump, because he's such an entertaining figure to the masses, whether they like him or hate him, they just talk about him more. I mean, I, I teach a group of college students and I say, you know, there was a time that when you were in college, to care about politics was the dorkiest thing you do. And now they all at least have some opinion whether they, you know, they have some thought. And that. I do think he's done that. He's made these things, conversations that more people are interested in than they used to be.
- [33:05]
Matt Jones
Oh, absolutely. Like politics used to be kind of played between the 40 yard lines.
- [33:09]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah.
- [33:09]
Matt Jones
You know, like Pete, there's decorum and there was this, you know that you're. Shane Gillis, of course.
- [33:14]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah.
- [33:15]
Matt Jones
Right. He's got a great bit on this where it's like everyone watched that first Republican primary.
- [33:19]
Tommy Vitor
Yes. About Rand Paul and he was like, his hair stinks.
- [33:21]
Matt Jones
And it was like wwe. And everyone's like, wait, you can do this, you can do this.
- [33:25]
Tommy Vitor
And it's. But he's, There's a lot of brilliance in that little bit because there was a sense of. He just made it like he made WWE is the best example. I mean, you know, I do wrestling stuff.
- [33:36]
Matt Jones
I know.
- [33:36]
Tommy Vitor
And he is, he's all. He made wrestling politics. And I think that's terrible for the country. But it was successful for getting elected.
- [33:46]
Matt Jones
Absolutely. And like his genius. Trump is a genius when it comes to dominating the media narrative every day.
- [33:53]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah.
- [33:53]
Matt Jones
You know, and in doing it in a shameless way, like he's currently accusing Barack Obama of treason to avoid talking about the episode.
- [33:59]
Tommy Vitor
But then he'll also just be Like, I don't like paper straws. And, you know, people who don't really know a lot about government, I hate, I hate paper straws, too. So if you don't know a lot about government, you can go, well, I mean, Trump's right about the, those paper straws. I mean, that's. And then he'll say, hey, McDonald's needs to do this or the commanders should be the Redskins. And like, things like that do resonate with the average person, right?
- [34:22]
Matt Jones
Absolutely. It's also just very simple. Right. If you and I were to try to go out to a group of your students and tell them all about the big, beautiful bill that passed and how it's going to impact Medicaid and states and the phase ins and the tax reductions and the work. Like, I'm, I'm bored of myself right now.
- [34:38]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah.
- [34:38]
Matt Jones
If he's out there just being like, Coca Cola is going to put real sugar in the Coke. Like, everyone gets that.
- [34:44]
Tommy Vitor
Everybody gets it. And Shane Gillis was right. He, he looked at that debate and he goes, rand Paul looks stupid. And they're really, you know, Ted Cruz's dad killed John F. Kennedy. There comes a point like, how are you supposed to debate this? So let me ask you that.
- [34:58]
Matt Jones
And Matt, I, I remember canceling plans in 2015.
- [35:01]
Tommy Vitor
To watch it. Yeah.
- [35:02]
Matt Jones
To watch debates.
- [35:03]
Tommy Vitor
You wanted to.
- [35:03]
Matt Jones
All I wanted to do.
- [35:04]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, I get it. I went to the Republican Convention in 2016. There's a picture of me when Trump's giving his acceptance speech. I'm in the second row and I look like Charlie Kirk as I'm looking so happy at him and I can't stand him. But it was kind of entertaining to sit there and listen to him.
- [35:20]
Matt Jones
Yep.
- [35:21]
Tommy Vitor
So, I mean, that's, that's the way it goes. Do you. How do you think. I mean, he's hopefully never going to run again. What would have been the best way? I mean, Biden beat him in 2020, but I think Covid was a big part of that and the desire to try to get to. If you were creating the candidate in a box that you think would have been most likely to beat Trump, who would it be?
- [35:43]
Matt Jones
You know, like, with the benefit of hindsight, if, if Brock or. Sorry, I keep saying Obama, if Joe Biden had stepped down in 2022 and we had had a raucous open primary, I think that would have been the best path. I think the strongest candidate would have been someone who could make a credible outsider message, like, not a senator, not someone who's kind of like a fixture of Washington. Like someone like, you know, Governor Bashir, frankly, you could say, like.
- [36:10]
Tommy Vitor
But I mean, I love, I like Governor Beshear, but I mean, he is a fixture of politics. His dad was the governor and he was. I mean, he is a. He is a.
- [36:18]
Matt Jones
For Kentucky, yes, but like for the nation. Like, no one's heard of them. There's like, who is that? Look, I'm not like endorsing the guy. I'm just saying, like, you know, imagine you're a random voter. You're like, who's this, you know, good looking younger guy with a nice family who apparently is really popular in Kentucky and did some good things.
- [36:32]
Tommy Vitor
Totally see why that would work. Yeah. What about. I mean, why. How come we don't. You and I had conversations about create this idea of a left Joe Rogan and then two months after you and I had them, they're in the New York Times and it kind of almost becomes cheesy the way they want to create one out of, out of clay. What? Who? I mean, who's our Donald Trump? I mean, who's our person not in politics that comes out of nowhere and does it. Because it. I mean, it. Wouldn't that be a better way to go?
- [37:02]
Matt Jones
Yeah. I mean, the closest at the moment is probably Mark Cuban. Right? Like, he's known for other things. He's got an ability to kind of step into a new cycle and take it over and get attention. John Stewart's real. Jon Stewart's injuring Stephen Colbert actually is kind of an interesting dark horse.
- [37:16]
Tommy Vitor
He's got to get more people watching his show before we. Yeah, yeah.
- [37:20]
Matt Jones
Trump is. Trump is like a singular. He is.
- [37:22]
Tommy Vitor
I think so.
- [37:23]
Matt Jones
The Apprentice, like built him this. It was the book the Apprentice. Like he had this brand that it was so hardened in the public consciousness before he ran and then he did.
- [37:33]
Tommy Vitor
His thing, you know. Clayton and Croom was founded on a simple idea. All leather goods should last a lifetime. They make everything from bags, belts, wallets, and much more. And the best part, they're doing it right here in Kentucky. You can check them out. Claytonandkroom.com that's C R U M E dot com. Or you can visit their flagship retail store in Louisville at 216 S. Shelby St. That's in New Lou. It's Clayton and chrome quality leather goods. Built to last. How old are you?
- [38:03]
Matt Jones
44.
- [38:03]
Tommy Vitor
Okay, so you're. We're basically the same age. When I was a kid, the idea of being rich was being Donald Trump. It later became Bill Gates and now it's probably Elon Musk, but when I was a kid, if you were to say to just pop culture, who's rich? You would have said Donald Trump. And I do think for people of a certain age, that memory was there. I think that's a lot of the thing that with when rappers like him, they've been rapping about Donald Trump since the 80s or 90s. He was what was rich to them.
- [38:31]
Matt Jones
And this is, I think Democrats get wrong, which is like we, you know, you hear a lot of like billionaires shouldn't exist. Which, you know, I totally understand what the point everyone's making about taxation. Right. And like income inequality, but I think.
- [38:44]
Tommy Vitor
People want to be billionaires.
- [38:47]
Matt Jones
It's an aspirational message.
- [38:48]
Tommy Vitor
Right.
- [38:48]
Matt Jones
And Republicans were good on that. Like if like a lot of the kind of content that gets you pulled into an algorithmic path that takes you to Republican stuff is like working out self help.
- [38:59]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah.
- [38:59]
Matt Jones
Crypto. Right. And those are all things where people think like, this is an opportunity to build a better life, even with this rigged, broken system that I despise around me.
- [39:08]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. So, all right, so now we started with the Epstein stuff. Let's go to now. It seems to me Donald Trump, I mean you. Do you think there's any chance he tries to run again?
- [39:21]
Matt Jones
I wouldn't put it past him. I mean, like, he would just be real old. That's the thing. Guys gotta be getting up there.
- [39:27]
Tommy Vitor
He's already really old.
- [39:30]
Matt Jones
He saw his ankles the other day. He's not looking great.
- [39:32]
Tommy Vitor
Do you get a sense though, like maybe I'm wrong about this, but I know in Kentucky there are elected right wing officials that I'm friends with, many of whom are on television every day, and they will all privately tell you that they wish he wasn't around. They all sort of, they all are exhausted by him because they all have to do a song and dance for him, basically. Now I think there's some people that's not true about, but Kentucky has oddly got a lot of these renegades bizarrely with, with Rand Paul and Tom's mass, et cetera. And even Mitch now has oddly become one. Do you think there's a lot of Republicans that will be glad to see this era end or not?
- [40:16]
Matt Jones
I think yes and no. I mean, I think, look, we're never going back to like whatever the pre Trump politics was. I think he's just kind of like completely changed the DNA of the party. So I think there are people that probably find him gross and distasteful and like, don't like to have to, you know, comment on all his nonsense all the time. But also, he has led them to some pretty successful elections. And they like that. They like power. You know, even Mitch McConnell, like, he's not, like, he's not like, shutting stuff down in the Senate, Right. And using his power to thwart Trump. Now he's getting his tax cut.
- [40:46]
Tommy Vitor
Do most of these guys, men and women in both parties you mentioned, liking power? How many of these people is that the driving for? Like, how many of these, how many people in the Senate and House do you think their drive is? Power, slash notoriety versus ideology, slash trying to change the world in whatever way they think is best. What do you think the percentage is?
- [41:10]
Matt Jones
I mean, I think it's a combination for all of them. Like, look, even I got to know Barack Obama really well. Like, I thought he genuinely wanted to do right by the world. He thought he could make changes that would help people. Right. I think he had, like, truly good intentions. But you don't run for president without a massive ego. If you literally think you should be the leader of the free world, like that there has to be some desire to, like, be the one making the call to, you know, have that power or, like, be in control. Right. And so there's a lot of that. And like, in our political system, as you know better than I do, was set up to make those kind of folks bump up against each other and check each other.
- [41:50]
Tommy Vitor
But the system was not set up to only have two parties, which I think is ultimately the problem. And that's almost impossible to fix. All right, you were in the news, you and your cohorts with the man Hunter Biden, who had quite an interview in the last week where he told people about crack. And he talked for three hours. But one of the things he said is he got, he was obviously very angry at the people he felt like pushed his father out of the election. And he mentioned George Clooney and he mentioned Nancy Pelosi and he mentioned Obama. Didn't mention Harris, actually, but he mentioned pretty much everyone else. And then he mentioned you all in, in particular. When you heard about that, what was your thought? And then what do you think about Hunter Biden's points in general?
- [42:36]
Matt Jones
Yeah, so, I mean, I sort of saw the clips of it that everybody else did and then listened to the whole, like, three hour interview that he did with this guy Andrew callahan for Channel 5 news. Look, what, what was sort of weird and sad about it for me. There's a lot of things that are sad about it. I mean, I remember I sat next to Hunter Biden on a plane in 2004, like, Southwest Flight, like, back of the plane, on my way to the Democratic convention where Barack Obama was speaking.
- [43:02]
Tommy Vitor
Okay.
- [43:02]
Matt Jones
He was so nice to me. We talked the whole time. He never mentioned who he was. He just sort of, like, asked me questions about politics. Right. I was like, that would. That was my impression of him that had stayed with me for a long time, which is like, I know about all the Tadra stuff. I know a lot of people, I'm sure you do too, who have suffered with addiction. And I know what it can do to you. And I. And I think the attacks on Hunter Biden about his addiction challenges are disgusting and were cruel. And that's like, kind of should be out of bounds. I do think that his. The way he used his name to make money was gross. Right. And, like, both those things can be.
- [43:38]
Tommy Vitor
True, by the way. I mean, a person can be addicted and it be sad. And they also can have used their name to sell art and to get business things that they never would have gotten otherwise.
- [43:49]
Matt Jones
Yes. And I think we should be honest about that. That, like, I'm not defending him being on the board of Burisma. I don't think, like, he was doing something on behalf of his father to get Joe Biden kickbacks. Right. Like, there was never any there. There that we've seen, never any evidence. But I do think he clearly traded off his name and in so doing made it very difficult for the Democrats and his father in particular, to make kind of an ethics message against Donald Trump. And I did real damage to the campaign. It was very weird to me, though. Like, look, there's a lot. If my dad had been president and got kind of pushed out, I would be so super mad, too. But it is quite telling that he's mad about, like, an op ed in the Times in my dumb show and not addressing the reality that most voters thought Joe Biden was too old. And if you want to call me a liberal elite and say, you know, you live in a house in L. A. And you're out of touch, I'm like, sure, okay, guilty as charged. But, like, that didn't change the fact that, like, 80% of Democrats thought that he should step aside.
- [44:47]
Tommy Vitor
It was a debate was a disaster. Like, I mean, the problem for me, I was in. It was just the regular person. I mean, my. My. My podcast producer here, Billy, sitting there, I remember one day him saying to me, joe Biden's too old and Billy does not follow it on a daily basis. And if Billy is saying he's too old, there's a part of me that goes, this is what the general public thinks. When did you get the moment in your head that you said, he needs to drop out and I need to take that position publicly?
- [45:14]
Matt Jones
So this is the longer story of. This is sort of complicated. And get that, like, why Hunter's anger is so sort of, like, shocking, which is that, look, we all worked with Joe Biden, right, at the White House. We had a lot of affection for him personally in those days. When he decided to run in 2020, I frankly thought he was too old then.
- [45:33]
Tommy Vitor
Oh, really? Yeah.
- [45:35]
Matt Jones
Well, he got. Then he got crushed in Iowa. He got crushed in New Hampshire, and then he won in South Carolina and won the nomination and won the presidency. And obviously it was under weird circumstances with COVID and it was. Was kind of like a. From the basement campaign, but, like, he won. And so after that, I was kind of like, you know what? Maybe I'm the dumbest person in the world, and I don't know about stuff about politics, and, you know, like, sorry, and, you know, so I should just keep my big dumb mouth shut. And. But, like, you could see him declining physically, and then, you know, the 2022 midterms happen. I think the Biden people decided that they were the reason the Democrats did well and not because Republicans ran bozos like HERSCHEL Walker and Dr. Oz. Right. Like, I think there's a lot of context missing.
- [46:15]
Tommy Vitor
Well, let me go back to you. You were around Joe Biden in 2008, 2012, when he ran in 2020. You thought he was diminished then from when he was in the White House.
- [46:28]
Matt Jones
I didn't think he was diminished. I just thought, like, you know, we knew what his age was, and he just was. Was.
- [46:33]
Tommy Vitor
So you thought he was, like, old. Was there a time during the presidency when you, because you'd been around him a lot, started to think he seems diminished, or did you not think that?
- [46:43]
Matt Jones
I never thought that because I left the White House in 2013.
- [46:45]
Tommy Vitor
Okay.
- [46:45]
Matt Jones
You know, like, he was like. If you look at videos of him from then versus, you know.
- [46:49]
Tommy Vitor
No, but I mean, as when he was president this time, did you start to think he was diminished?
- [46:53]
Matt Jones
Yeah, no, I started to look. It became clear that he had lost the ability to communicate well.
- [46:57]
Tommy Vitor
Okay.
- [46:58]
Matt Jones
The thing that's funny is, like, Joe Biden was always sort of, like, known for making gaffes.
- [47:02]
Tommy Vitor
Right?
- [47:02]
Matt Jones
Like, that was like, his thing. And so when he would misspeak like, my muscle memory was not that he had aged into that problem. It was just like a Joe Biden problem is a famous Joe Biden problem, even from like 88 campaign. Right. But, you know, then there were the midterms. Then he did that State of the Union where he was seen as very strong.
- [47:19]
Tommy Vitor
People thought he was on coke.
- [47:21]
Matt Jones
Yeah, right, exactly. And that, I guess my, my, my view on it was like, you know what? I have my own personal feelings, but he has made a decision. And so I'd rather him than the alternative.
- [47:30]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah.
- [47:31]
Matt Jones
Then the debate happened, and we were all watching the debate live or in Boston for a thing, and we recorded something right after it. And all of us said in that moment that, like, he should really think about getting out because it was the worst debate performance in history. And I think Hunter Biden can be mad about that. There's this sort of sense of entitlement. You hear from the Biden family and his top staffers. They're like, how dare you deny him reelection? But it's like, no one is owed the presidency.
- [47:56]
Tommy Vitor
No one is owed the presidency. You're right.
- [47:58]
Matt Jones
He was a senator, a vice president. He was president. States like, he's a historic figure and their kind of inability to understand that. And also the unbelievable, like the reception, if he had just walked away kind of under different circumstances versus the outcome that we all saw would have just been night and day.
- [48:16]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, no, you're exactly right. I, I, I actually find myself feeling sorry for him a little bit because I think he's going, History is going to look at him a certain way, whereas if he had just not had pride and had in January of 2024, stepped aside, history would looked at him a different way. And, and I think that's it. You know, pride comes before the fall in some time, in some ways. All right, let's look forward here real quick. And then I know you got other stuff to do. Andy Beshear, we mentioned governor here in Kentucky. I have known Andy for many, many, many years, and I've seen a vast improvement, in my opinion. I used to say he was vanilla ice cream without sprinkles. And now I actually think, like, I'm sort of shocked how well he's been doing. Does he have a chance to be the next president or Democratic nominee?
- [49:10]
Matt Jones
I mean, like, he clearly, you know, if you and I were recruiting for Kentucky, he's like a resume guy, right? Like, he's got definitely, you know, it's a, it's a hell of a compelling resume on paper. I think what all of these candidates need to to do though, is show that they can get attention and keep it and excite people. And like, I'm more, like, I'm more in the camp that he's a lot of vanilla ice cream. And he seems like a great flavor, high quality ice cream, well made from the best cows you.
- [49:38]
Tommy Vitor
But can you win a primary as vanilla ice cream?
- [49:40]
Matt Jones
You win a primary, it's.
- [49:42]
Tommy Vitor
Well, Joe Biden was vanilla ice cream in some ways and, and he won. I just, I, I, There's a part of me that says, okay, there's one of two ways that see what you think. This is my dumb analysis. If you agree, there's one of two ways the Democrats can should move forward. Pick vanilla ice cream. But vanilla ice cream that everyone is okay with. And Andy Beshear, maybe that. Or pick somebody that gets them marching up and down the streets. And the worst thing to do is be in the middle, which is what I think we are a lot. So either go bland as bland can be and just have people go, I'm tired of the fighting. I pick Andy Beshear or aoc, Right? Like, go out in the streets and let's get everybody voting. Do you agree that those are the two paths? And it's just, which one do you do?
- [50:33]
Matt Jones
I actually don't think there are two paths. I think Democrats like to tell ourselves a story that we would win every election if we just did a better job turning people out. Okay, don't think that's right. I think you have to persuade people, okay? You have to inspire them and persuade them and convince them that we are a better alternative than the Republican Party. And so that's not kind of like, that's not stamping the Bashir versus aoc. I think, like, what I want to see, I want to see a big, motley, ugly primary. I want to see people shredding each other up in fighting and show me what you got.
- [51:06]
Tommy Vitor
Republicans are good at that, though. They usually, they usually throw it out there and then you see who survives.
- [51:12]
Matt Jones
We got to do that again. We got. It's been a while.
- [51:14]
Tommy Vitor
When's the last time we did that? Bill Clinton.
- [51:16]
Matt Jones
I mean, you know, 2008 was a pretty spicy primary.
- [51:19]
Tommy Vitor
Okay.
- [51:20]
Matt Jones
But it was still Obama.
- [51:21]
Tommy Vitor
Well, I guess it was 1 1.
- [51:23]
Matt Jones
Edwards.
- [51:23]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, Edwards. I forgot about Edwards. Okay, so you want that again?
- [51:27]
Matt Jones
I think we got to do it.
- [51:28]
Tommy Vitor
So who, so who are we talking? We're talking Gavin Newsome, Josh Shapiro, Andy Bashir, aoc, Pete Buddha, Jej. Would Harris run Again, who.
- [51:40]
Matt Jones
God only knows. I don't know what she wants to do. She hasn't been out there much. You know, she's. There's some talk about governor of California maybe running for president again. Who knows?
- [51:48]
Tommy Vitor
But do you. Did I just mention most of what you think would be the main candidates?
- [51:53]
Matt Jones
Yeah. And then there's kind of. There's got to be some kind of, you know, out of nowhere, like, you know, who knows, Bernie runs again. There could be more money. Mark Cuban, you see, Elizabeth Warren, like, who knows, you know, I don't know the full list, but. But I'm with you. Like, I think what Joe Biden had that none of the people we just mentioned had was a national profile after eight years of being a very popular vice president to a very popular president. Right. Like, everyone knew his name.
- [52:19]
Tommy Vitor
I'll make this the last question. I have taken this view, and you tell me if I'm right or wrong. MAGA as a force probably always exists, but I've always kind of thought Trump is the only one who can really pull it off and get an electoral. That when other people try to be maga, they lose. Basically, the more MAGA the candidate, the worse they do in swing states. When they win, it's because they pick somebody that's not very maga. And I don't know that MAGA as a. Let's just piss liberals off, and that's how we win as a winning strategy. I don't think it works. Besides Trump, do you agree or not?
- [52:57]
Matt Jones
I do agree. I think, like, a lot of what Trump's does is trolling and annoying people like me to get his base fired up. But, like, he has a genuine appeal and he's taken positions that were not the Republican orthodoxy. Right. Remember in some of those 2015 debates, he got up there and he was like, jeb, your brother is an idiot. The Iraq war was a disaster. Like, what were we?
- [53:18]
Tommy Vitor
Well, and taking up for the working class. I mean, let's we the working class, which is my bread and butter issue. The working class. While I don't agree with tariffs, the idea behind it is to help the working class. I don't think it works, but I think that's the idea. He looked at workers and said, you matter. And no one had done that in that way in a while. And I think that's effective. And J.D. vance can't do that. Like, he can say it, but it doesn't come off the same.
- [53:47]
Matt Jones
He's a goober, I think. Like, you know, I don't. God, Knows if Trump lets him.
- [53:52]
Tommy Vitor
You know, he was on a version of this podcast many years ago.
- [53:55]
Matt Jones
We.
- [53:55]
Tommy Vitor
We. Yeah. I mean, J.D. and I were friends at one point. Yeah.
- [54:00]
Matt Jones
You remember the. The Chappelle Show, Mad Real World, where. What was the guy's name? Tyree would say, you sit when you pee in this apartment. That. That's sort of how I imagine him in the White House these days. Anyway, we're moving on.
- [54:11]
Tommy Vitor
No, I like it. I like it. You sit when you pee.
- [54:14]
Matt Jones
I'm with you, though. Like, look, Trump. Democrats need to just reckon with the fact that people like Trump.
- [54:19]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah.
- [54:20]
Matt Jones
They think he's funny, they think he's charming. He tells crazy stories. It's interesting. And he has positions. They like the populist positions. We need to steal that back. Democratic Party needs to be clear in what we stand for. We need to be anti war. We need to be for the working people. We need an ethics and lobbying reform proposal that includes not letting Nancy Pelosi trade stocks while she's serving speaker of the House or her husband. Right. Like, there's all we got to clean up our own House. Democrats have a lot of work to do. We have barely started. But we need to fight and, like, try to, you know, tell those people we care about you. We will fight for you. We're working for you, are not in this for us. We're not in this to die in office and make money and, you know what I mean? And so, you know, I'm with you that, like, I don't think MAGA is a thing. You can just, like, hand off, like it's a baton at a relay race. Right. That, you know, when others have tried it, it has not gone well. But Democrats, like, we can't just count on that being.
- [55:14]
Tommy Vitor
We got to do it. I agree. I love the guy down in Texas that was on Rogan, because I've not.
- [55:20]
Matt Jones
Heard that interview yet.
- [55:21]
Tommy Vitor
Well, let me tell you what James Telisco, I think, is how you say he's a state legislator. Let me just say quickly why I'd love to say this to people in Washington, although he does it maybe better than I could. There are a lot of people in America, especially in middle America, this is Andy Beshear's group, too, who are religious, who love God, who believe in the values of helping the poor, and who are not concerned about social issues and believe God calls them to treat people well. He articulated how that position is compatible with Democrat philosophies better than any one I've ever heard. I've tried to articulate it for 15 years. And I would love to write that guy and just say, you did in two and a half hours, something better than I've ever done. And there's a lot of those people, I think, when you look and you say, why did Joe Biden do better than Hillary Clinton? Clinton. And why is Andy Beshear the second most popular governor in America? It's those values in middle America. And he has it. And I'm not saying he should run for president, but I wish that people would sit and listen to him. The way he talks about the God says to love your enemy. And all of these things that if Democrats just embrace some of them could go so far, in my opinion.
- [56:39]
Matt Jones
I think that people across the political spectrum right now are struggling to find meaning in life. And whether that is, you know, a lack of religion in this country anymore, whether it's the Internet breaking all of our brains or just like a lack of purpose in the work we're doing, there is that void in the emptiness.
- [56:57]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. You know, I like, these things have made it hard. These phones have made it feel like, what's life's purpose? Except for me to look at this screen sometimes.
- [57:07]
Matt Jones
And we're not connecting with anybody exactly doing, doing this. And so look, I, like, I didn't grow up in a very religious family, but, like, you know, when I lay in bed at night and something horrible has happened in our family or, you know, you, you need a. You need. You know, I'm not like, I'm not praying to some, you know, secular wealth. You know what I mean? Like, we're all looking.
- [57:27]
Tommy Vitor
Just be it like for me and maybe that, that representative. It's based on religion, but it can also just be a. Based on humanity. This belief that we should help one another, that what is the purpose of life except to help those less fortunate? That used to be what I kind of thought of as the core of Democratic philosophy. We are here to help those that are less fortunate and to rise everybody up. And I think we need to re. Inject that. Does that make sense?
- [57:53]
Matt Jones
I agree, man. Yes. Like, that was the core of Obama's message.
- [57:56]
Tommy Vitor
It was. Yeah.
- [57:57]
Matt Jones
I am my brother's keeper. Like, the arc of the moral universe bends towards Justin, but only when we pull on it. Right. Like, I. Absolutely. Those are big thematic things about bringing us together, loving each other. Like, you know, I think, look, I think that politics is a pendulum in this country and it's constantly swinging back and forth and someone is going to run hard against the tone of Donald Trump and the divisiveness and they're going to have to find a non cheesy, non boring way to do it. But I do think, like appealing to the better angels of our nature, as somebody famous once said, is going to be something that resonates after like 10 years of the most divisive political culture any of us can can recall.
- [58:37]
Tommy Vitor
Watch that interview. I bet you'll lie. I mean, I don't know if he's the person just because he's not dynamic, but his message in my opinion, could not be better. I, I want to find a way to reach. I'd love to have him on here. It was brilliant. Tommy, thank you very much. Pod save America. And I do appreciate that you're going out and like being heard on all these other platforms. Keep it up and you know, it's a blast, man.
- [59:02]
Matt Jones
Look, look, we're both very lucky we get to talk to people for a living. I think that the more the Democrats can talk about all the mistakes we made, the more kind of like grace, you get to try to convince people that you maybe have some good ideas. So I'm falling on my sword left and right over here, buddy. You know, to Hunter Biden, to you, to anyone listening. But like, I just hope folks give Democrats a look because we're trying.
- [59:21]
Tommy Vitor
Tommy Vitor, thank you very much.
- [59:24]
Matt Jones
Thanks, Ben.
- [59:24]
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