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- [00:00]
A
Let your imagination take flight with an AI powered PC from Lenovo. Whether it's creating digital art, designing new software, or building a portfolio for a Future career, our PCs are powered by Intel Core Ultra processors to help students unlock smarter learning and unleash their creativity. That's the power of Lenovo. With intel inside, all you have to do is choose the one that fits your passion. Head to Lenovo.com to shop AI PCs and find your perfect companion. Plus, get 5% off when you create an education account. This is Interrupted by Matt Jones.
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B
It's episode 13 of Interrupted by Matt Jones, presented by Cornbread Hemp. This is the good life we have done the last couple weeks probably more politics and current events than some of you like. So I thought we'd do some basketball because there is nobody who's riding on college basketball I respect more than this. Fellas from CBSSports.com Matt Norlander, Matt and I, I was just telling the guys here a minute ago that you and I worked together for a year in 2011 at CBS Sports and you've been there ever since. Thank you very much for your time.
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A
It's good to be with you. Yes, yes indeed. That first season I came on. We don't need to totally walk down memory lane. But yes, I was hired the first week of December of 2010 at CBS Sports and you were, I think you had like freelance for CBS previous to that but you were number two after that. Eric Andrevine and then Jeff Borzello.
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B
I was just trying to remember who the other one was. Eric and Jevine. That's right.
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A
Who previously ran Storming the Floor any hardcore college basketball.
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B
What does he do now?
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A
You know what, I don't know. I haven't talked to Eric in a number of years but he, he under, under good terms just willingly opted to.
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B
Move to a different life. Yeah.
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A
Business. Yeah. Over a ago. But we were the original, we were the original four and I've managed to somehow cling on here.
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B
Well, I know how you've managed which is that you do an amazing job. And so I, I wanted to have you on to talk a number of things. The most important stuff is probably the most boring. So I'm going to save it. So let's start with the most fun, the most fun things here in Kentucky. We had an amazing story last year with John Caliperi taking the Arkansas job, Mark Pope getting the Kentucky job. I think sometimes we are so wrapped up in it here we don't necessarily get the perspective. Tell me when you first heard John Calipari is going to Arkansas. What did you think of that?
- [02:40]
A
Gosh. Okay, again, we don't have to totally relive this as well, but this is one of the more. I don't, I don't know if I technically broke the story, but I felt like I was going to be the one that broke the story when it happened because I got told this is the Sunday before the title.
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B
Yes.
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A
That morning I got a tip on it. And then, or maybe it was like late after late morning, early afternoon. I can't remember all the particulars in terms of when I first learned, but I think someone in Arkansas said, hey, I didn't, I didn't know this in real time, but like the day after everything was starting to settle because I was working under the guise that I was going to break this, going to break the story. I think someone in Arkansas said, hey, I'm hearing Cal might be actually involved in Arkansas. Anyway, I remember being, I remember that story that's such a gargantuan story and such a significant tip, thinking like, nah, I just, I'll. I'll sniff this out. But I have my real doubts about this. The timing of it. It's the same league. Would he actually really go through with this? Everything that he had talked about with Barnhart previously and all that, and then, lo and behold, it was true. I remember going, I actually had like a CBS team dinner and I confirmed it with one more, a third source. Go. Right before we left for dinner in Arizona. I didn't know that Cal was in Arizona.
- [04:05]
B
He was there. He was there. Yeah.
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A
No, he was still there at that point. And this was later, so this was. Yeah, so anyway, I was like, okay, here goes nothing. Put it out. I know I never sat down at the dinner table.
- [04:21]
B
Well, walk me through that for a second, Matt, because a lot of people wouldn't know this. I mean, when you get a scoop of whatever it is, let's say it's that or whatever it is, how much verification do you feel like you have to, have to go? I mean, you always hear this, you got to have two sources. But like today's social media world, things move so quick. How do you feel like, how much proof do you feel like you need to have to go with?
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A
A lot. I actually feel like I hold myself to an extremely rigorous standard and that winds up burning you.
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B
Sometimes.
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A
Yeah, I just, I sometimes, like, I will have stuff for any number of time. Could be hours, could be days, and it might be single sourced and I just won't go with it and someone else will go with it. Just I don't want to be wrong, you know. And have you ever been wrong?
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B
I don't remember you being wrong.
- [05:10]
A
There might, honestly, like, there's probably been a couple of times where I've reported something and it's been 90% right. But there might be a little bit of the framing that is, that winds up not being the way. But you want to be careful, like, when you report these things and framing. And obviously when like a high profile coach is considering changing jobs, you know, you also have to allow for, shy of literally the. The coach in question, the agent or the athletic director. Those are like the three people. And in rare cases, and this usually is not the case for me, the president of a university, like, those are the four people that you would need to rely on to essentially not be wrong, like, even secondary. And this isn't what happened with the Caliperi situation, obviously. But even in a situation where a coach might change a job and his most trusted assistant or someone that's extremely close to them tells you, like, this is where it's going to go, the human being involved still has the capacity to say no. I remember I had the Jay Wright retirement. Four hours walking around my house, telling my wife, this is going to happen. But Jay Wright technically has the. He has the capacity at the very last moment before, because his team didn't know to tell his team. You know what, until 10 minutes ago, I was thinking about this. I'm going to retire. But now that I'm in this room, like, you have to allow for the possibility that these things might go a different way. So anyway, I try and hold it to a pretty rigorous standard and I think when the Caliperi stuff broke and man, that is one of the more true likes from a reporting standpoint. Truly surreal. I think we went live with a podcast reaction on. On the Arizona time, like at 12:30 at night. Just completely, completely wild. I think my framing was John Calipari has entered into serious discussions about leaving Kentucky for the Arkansas job. And that was also. Not to totally relive all of this stuff, but I remember a very interesting hiccup with a lot of that was it was in Cal's contract and he could not engage.
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B
Yeah.
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A
With another school about a job. You know, and as far as I can tell, he technically broke the terms of that contract. Now, whether privately.
- [07:07]
B
No, no, he did break it. And I think it was. I think it was probably. It was. That was probably. Well, you know, from my perspective, and I think he Then had some second thoughts. And I think the fact that he broke it gave Kentucky some leverage, that the result that was probably best for anybody ended up happening because of that. I mean, I think that this is one of those circumstances where I think everybody won. I think Arkansas won, I think Cal won. I think Kentucky won in the sense that it probably time for it to go. I know you're not here on a day to day basis, but did you kind of feel like as you've been around, you know, a lot of people at Kentucky, I mean, did you kind of feel like, look, this probably for BET ever better for everybody if everybody just kind of goes in a different direction?
- [07:48]
A
Yes. I remember when they lost to Oakland, tweeting like, there's a real chance. John Caliperi just coached his last game ever in Kentucky because in the immediate of that it was like, okay, we cannot do again. I live in Connecticut. I'm very familiar with Kentucky. I actually the 96 Kentucky team is my favorite team ever. I, as a teenager, Kentucky was the team I was most drawn to. I could legitimately say that I was a fan of Kentucky as I grew up in Vermont, just because I love the way Pitino's teams played. Like Tony Delk was my favorite college player of the 90s and all that stuff. So I have a, you know, I lived in Louisville when I was much younger, never lived in Lexington, but have a general idea of some of it as much as you can when you're not actually on the ground there and living it day to day. And I remember when the Oakland loss happening and just scanning, you know, scanning all this stuff as a part of the gig, being like, they can't keep doing this. Like this has, this has to be a reason for change. And then nothing happens. They do that. Awkward television.
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B
The worst interview ever. Yeah.
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A
Which counter to some of the stuff that I was being told. I can't believe whatever, we can keep it moving here in a second. But, but then you get to the point where, you know, it's like, all right, Calipari, Arkansas, I'm told this is going to happen. And, and, and then it winds up happening and just. Yeah, just crazy. Crazy. There's only one other coaching, at least in the past like 15 years, only one other coaching thing that's happened surrounding the Final Four that seemed to like for at least a little bit like take away from the spotlight. And that's when Roy Williams retired on April 1 in the bubble tournament. And that was a situation where a lot of people in the industry just had to be like, hey, is this an April Fool's joke? Is he actually retiring Roy Williams? Like he just, I think they lost in the first round of that tournament. Like he's going to end his career like not even with a win in his final year in the tournament. And it was true. But that was the Monday of the tournament maybe, I think. And the in that bubble tournament. And then Caliper is just. Man, oh man, I just did a story@cbssports.com yeah, I want to talk about.
- [09:42]
B
You did the biggest moments, right?
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A
And the biggest stories. Not the biggest moments. Those are two different things. But yeah, I did the biggest stories in men's college basketball specifically over the past 25 years. And Cal going to Arkansas just missed the cut. And when I say just missed the cut, it was among the three or four biggest cuts. Because in my opinion, and you would frankly, this is when I really came to understand the your presence in Kentucky. Cal leaving Memphis for Kentucky was a bigger deal. It was a bigger story, had more profound impacts on the sport. So that story is in the top 25. Cal to Arkansas, also an earthquake. But I didn't want to have two caliper movement stories in the rankings as well. But the Kentucky1 In 2009, as I wrote and we podcasted for Ion College Basketball and cbs, it was the first on the basketball side at least. Cal leaving Memphis for Kentucky and the door and the live stream and everyone waiting for Cal to walk out of that building and Alan Cutler chasing Billy Gillespie through the halls of Kentucky's facility. Everything there. It was the first college basketball coaching change in the Twitter era where it was dominated. I mean you had a, you had a days long process where it was like Gillespie is going to be out. Who's going to be the guy? It's got to be Cal. When are we going to get the word and. And everything that came after that, the good, bad, all of it can tied to Cal recruiting one and done Duke, everything. That's why that one clearly to me registered as among the 10 or 12 biggest stories of the past 25 years.
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B
Yeah, I loved your list by the way. The only thing I didn't did. You didn't have the Louisville scandal, right? Was that the only.
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A
Okay, I didn't but and someone's actually mentioned this to me. I didn't have the Louisville scandal only because I put patino. I There's been so many things right. I didn't have. I did not have the Katrina Powell. I did strongly debate it. I really, really did. It Was hard, dude. There were like 45 stories for. I did a top 25 and one in the casino. Yeah, that we do. Like Gary Paris is the top 25 on one rankings. So it was hard to get this list down. And then I included when the FBI scandal hit. Pitino lost his job and it was like the last scandal that led to him losing his job in Louisville, getting the national championship stripped. And to me that was the bigger Louisville story than the scandal. But you're right, I do not disagree with the fact that they're really like Louisville scandals involved in that were probably like 30 candidates for 26 spots. But I had to have like a shocking retirement. So like Jay Wright retiring emblematic.
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B
Very shocking because of the timing.
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A
Yeah, I had to have like, I know this is forgotten a little bit, but Miami and Virginia Tech and Boston College leaving the Big east in the early 2000s, which set up. That was the first domino. I have other conference realignment stuff in there, but that was an extremely, extremely big deal. It basically allowed the biggies to become a 16 team basketball conference and set the template. Sorry, that's like a huge, huge story. So anyway, not to totally defend my list, but it was tough to know.
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B
Your list is great, your list is great. I mean you got the one that was number one with all the NL nil and the changes there. So let's, let's talk just a second. I mean, college basketball as a sport is a completely different sport than it was three years ago, five years ago. And there's a good chance three years from now it will be a different sport than it is now. It is hard to on a day to day basis keep track with what it's going to be. I did on my show today this whole legal thing about, you know, what's it going to take from a legal perspective. To me, the only. And you tell me if you disagree with this, the only thing that's really going to lead to guardrails in any of this is if Congress passes a bill that essentially sets that law about college athletics separate from the regular law and the president signs, I think absent that, it's still going to be chaos for the next few years. Do you agree with that?
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A
I do. This is such a. Okay. This is such an unwieldy topic. And full transparency, you know, I don't know, I don't know how long from us taping this will go live.
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B
That's exactly what's today. So you don't have to worry about changing a lot.
- [13:37]
A
So earlier this week on Monday Okay, I. Okay, let's just rewind some of this here. I was on the road earlier in July, and I went to a couple of different recruiting events with Adidas and Nike, and I talked to a variety of different companies, coaches. Okay, and this comes after the house case settlement is decided. And then, just as pure coincidence, when I was on the road, the College Sports Commission. I promise I'm gonna answer this, but I just want a quick setup here. It puts out the guidance that says, hey, listen, collectives, essentially, they're not going to be allowable anymore. And, you know, you're gonna have to really clear a high bar for a valid business purpose for any player to get money through a collective, through nil and endorsements and all that. Well, I'm on the road talking to coaches as this stuff comes out. So naturally, it's easy fodder for conversation and speculation and just bitch sessions, if you will. So I write a story about all of the uncertainty that comes with all that, because you've got the revenue sharing and the caps in different schools. And we can get into all of that as well, if you want. But what was so interesting to me, because I expected it maybe from one or two coaches, but this came up with, I don't know, nearly a dozen coaches. At some point in our conversations, they would just arrive at the conclusion of, just got to make these guys employees, man. Like, can we just do this already? Like, that is what. What. What gets us there. And I do think, unfortunately, this is going to take a long time. Like, I think this is. I would love to be wrong, but I'm sorry, I've been following this story literally since 2009 in terms of the slow death of amateurism. And amateurism is dead. But you have to be able to have football players and basketball players unionize, collectively bargain. And within that, then comes the constraints that all other professional leagues have. Like, in so many ways, not entirely, but in so many ways, you can see how college athletics is a professional enterprise, and we're just not. We're not there. It's going to take. It's going to take more fighting, more lawsuits, more struggle. I don't think the executive order issued by.
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B
No, it does nothing. I do think there's a second way, though. The employee thing, to me, is how it should be.
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A
Yeah, but.
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B
But. But Congress, I do think, legally could make a law that says all these antitrust laws and all the laws that we have that were violated when it was essentially amateurism. I mean, Congress could have a law that says none of that applies to college sports. They can do that.
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A
They could. But, Matt, as you know, it's actually become even, I would say in the past year, if we go back two, three years ago when this was a topic, it seemed as though, you know, nil was still figuring itself out. And it seemed like there was a real opportunity in that time, even though it's hard to get this stuff through where Republicans and Democrats.
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B
You're right, you're right.
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A
Had a lot of common ground in terms of empowering players. And now it's got to be, it's frustrating for you, frustrating for me. And it's got to be so frustrating for folks who follow college sports, follow your podcast, follow your radio show. It is just agonizing to see that, that now we have, we have reached a point where this issue now has also become something of a partisan issue. I want to be clear, there is definitely some common ground about what college players should be empowered and able to earn. But now it is becoming this thing where you've got the Democratic side that is really looking for all out empowerment, and I don't even necessarily disagree with that whatsoever. And then you've got the Republican side that is looking to put certain barriers and guardrails around it and trying to push through some antitrust exemptions for the NCAA that still would frankly allow the powers that be with the NCAA to put restraints on college athletes that would actually go back. So it can do it, Matt. It can do it. But this current one, this Score act, it's not, I've heard from plenty of people like, it's going to die, it's going to die. It's the most ambitious one yet. It's the closest one that conceivably could happen to antitrust status. And it's still not going to get.
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B
It's not going to happen. I mean, there's a, there's a congressman here in Kentucky named Morgan McGarvey who works on it on the House side for the Democrats. And he and I have had a lot of conversations. He wrote the bill that was the Kentucky state bill, which is one of the very first bills that came out with this. It's not going to happen until, I mean, they got to get 60 votes in the Senate, which means you've got to have Democrats on board. I think the Trump executive order makes it worse because, you know, now anytime Trump's involved, the Democrats don't want to give him a win and he wants to take credit. And I actually just think that makes it harder. I did like, though I will say one thing about his executive order when there was some stuff in there that I do think Democrats would agree with, like, we got to protect women's sports. We got to have 16 sports. If you make this like, there was some positives, but I'm with you. I don't think it's going to happen. Coaches are frustrated, but are we done with the era where coaches say, I'm retiring because I don't want to do this anymore? Did we finally get rid of all those people or are there some still around?
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A
No, we did not get rid of all those people. Now it's. It depends on how you want to frame and respond to that. I will say that I talked. I'm not going to give the coaches away. Obviously, talked to two power conference coaches, one on the road and one was just on the phone early. I want to say this was maybe June, maybe May, and they just, you know, just talking casually and off the record saying, yeah, like, check back with me in March, because this really might be it. Okay, but you've got other coaches, like, you know, one who is not there, Tom Izzo, who is as fervent and not spoken about a lot of this stuff. And at the same time also, you know, I caught up with Tom on the road and, you know, some of the. Some of the fights that he was putting up in really good faith, by the way, for, you know, seven, eight years, he now has realized, like, there are certain things that people will seek his opinion out on. And there's other stuff where he's like, I'm just. I can't do this anymore. Like, I can't. I can't be saying the same stuff on these committee calls and on these zooms of, you know, week after week, month after month. Like, I just. I'm going to have to let it go. With that being said, no, I still think that you will have a real. There's a real chance that some coaches could retire next season or the year after and cite where we're at. I don't think we're fully out of it there, but I don't think, like, a couple of guys that I don't think are in that realm. Like, I think Izzo, two, three, four more years, and when he. When he goes, it'll be affected by some of this, but he's also going to have naturally aged out of it. But I don't think he's coming. I don't think he's coming soon. I. Guys like Rick Barnes wait and see. Although Rick Barnes says Not close. I, I asked Dana Altman says he's not close, although he also entered like it's kind of my wife's call and that I don't know to me if.
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B
They want to go, go. I mean, like, it's, it's, it's, it's like I, I, the, the drama of, of, of the, some of those guys drives me crazy. I mean, Patino's 900 years old and he's making it work. So let me ask you this.
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A
Very much, very much the case with Peter, Tina, Mark Few is one I would keep an eye on. Mark Few I could see coaching for 10 more years. Or if you told me he retired the day after next season, I would believe either one of those. The way he's wired, that's all you know.
- [20:36]
B
Clayton and Croom was founded on a simple idea. All leather goods should last a lifetime. They make everything from bags, belts, wallets, and much more. And the best part, they're doing it right here in Kentucky. You can check them out claytonandkroom.com that c r u m e.com or you can visit their flagship retail store in Louisville at 216 S. Shelby St. That's in New Lou. It's Clayton and Croom quality leather goods built to last. Let me, let me ask you if you were to say whatever the rules end up being in the next year or two, what programs in the NIL era give me three or four programs you think are set up to really utilize these rules to their advantage and maybe three or four programs that have been good that you think these rules have a chance to hurt going forward.
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A
Okay. Schools that are set up inherently to do well. Duke, I'm just gonna. This, I'm not gonna give you everyone. There's just a few that are off the top of my head. Duke, Yukon, Kentucky, St. John's let me give you, let me give you an even five here.
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B
I love this.
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A
I. And then the fifth one that I think is set up to do well but will be fascinating is Marquette. Only because Marquette doesn't have football. It's in the Big East. That's plenty of money. But Shaka Smart just isn't going into the portal to add players. So it's actually kind of wild how shock Marquette's like a different deal from everyone else because I don't think there's a program that has access to more rev share money but isn't utilizing it to maximum ends than Marquette. So they're fascinating to me. Schools that are.
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B
Let me, let me use those five before you go to the others. All right, so Kentucky and Duke, historically great programs, huge fan bases, Nike donors, national programs make sense to me. UConn, St. John's Marquette. In conferences without football, they can put a lot of rev share they don't have to share with football. That strikes me as the reason those 3, 5 programs are on the list. Am I right?
- [22:33]
A
Yes. Largely speaking, like UConn has brought most of its collective. Like I don't know if UConn can hit 20.5. It's brought most of his collectives in house. And UConn now has, as I understand it, just a lot of money and rightfully so. I mean, men's and women's basketball there and it does have a football program. But. And you know there will be rev share money that goes to the football program. But UConn's football program is, you know, it's, it's kind of on an island to a certain extent there. St. John's just doesn't have to deal with that. You've got Rick Patino. I remember One source at St. John's telling me like this is tongue in cheek, but it's like we should be the evil empire.
- [23:02]
B
Like, yeah, they should have this.
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A
We are in New York City. Like this should be what we are. And that's going to be reflected in the rankings in the preseason. I would estimate St. John's probably spent. There had to be a top five to seven spender in the, in the portal this past off season. Wouldn't surprise me whatsoever. And yeah, so they are not restricted by football before we get to the programs. Well, I guess I can now let.
- [23:23]
B
Me ask you on the ones that have spent the most money this year? Yes, off the top of my head, Kentucky, St. John's per Michigan, those would be three. What else is on that list?
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A
Absolutely, for sure is up there. BYU is. Well, again, just as a reminder to listeners and viewers, this is because the house case settlement didn't go into effect until the summer. So all of these schools in this past quarter cycle, they front loaded this, they got all this donor money and so that's why they were able in some cases to just cruise and I mean cruise north of 10 million and completely blow away what the market was the year before, let alone the year before that. So they were up there. Indiana was considered pretty high up there and there's some others as well. I actually wrote a big story on that back.
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B
Yeah, I saw that. All right, so what about the bad.
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A
One which stirred up a little bit just because Some coaches don't care and other coaches don't want it like out there how much they have. They don't. They worry about like the 8th, 9th or 10th guy on the roster being like wait a second, we have how much. I understand that that can be a thing. So it is what it is. Schools that are feel like they could be affected by this. I do think it's schools like in the SEC in the Big Ten potentially. I want to, I want to stress this. This is just potentially we'll see like now that the some of the stakes of these things have changed and the College Sports Commission has eased its guidance on collectives like how far does that guidance go? I've heard from a few people in the industry in the past 48 hours about this and some think it's just yeah this is going to go back to what it was and then it's the rev share cap and others think they said this. But let's actually wait and see. Let's look at the next four or five months and let's just see if we have a couple high profile stories where players might try and get deals and they actually still do get shut down because they're trying to get 500,000 through a collective. So there is some some practicality there. But I'm wondering about schools like Auburn, Alabama. Who else in the SEC are like our I was told Arkansas from a rev share standpoint is not like Kentucky is the exception. I thought that Arkansas could be near that. I know we have actually had. We'll give a little more meat to to your viewers.
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B
Yeah, I want to get to that in a minute. The Kentucky we'll get to that a.
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A
Little bit more on that but like some schools in the SEC that could be affected by it. I also think the Big Ten is another league where like Ohio State football dominated. It's football dominated. So schools that have had some benefits here recently that I wonder about. Izzo even told me his his ref share for this year was three and a half. He hopes that to be higher. I wonder on Maryland producing some new good spot ucla I'm curious on Illinois has definitely had a lot of money, more than 10 million to play with. What will they be over the next two or three years? They might continue to still be in a good spot there and then it's the other schools that aren't typically like you wouldn't think to be high earners but like a Kansas State had a ton of money last cycle. They weren't good. They didn't make the Tournament. You had a few of those instances where schools that brought in a lot of money didn't wind up paying off. And North Carolina is another one to look at.
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B
I want to talk about North Carolina for a second because North Carolina is the blue blood now that is feeling less and less like a blue blood every day. And I don't. It seems to me the easiest selling sport should be North Carolina. Awesome school. Michael Jordan, huge fan base. What are they not set up for the future? And why does it feel like they are becoming mediocre? They're becoming Indiana before our eyes, man.
- [26:47]
A
I was sitting with a coach at the Nike event and I was just saying, you know, listen, man, I've never coached in college basketball, but if you told me that I could have any job in the sport, I would pick North Carolina.
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B
I don't disagree.
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A
You don't have the, you have a fan base that is super smart, really invested. But as you and I both know, like, Kentucky is on a different level of passion and intensity and North Carolina's the school of Jordan. You're involved in the greatest rivalry. You've got all this history, more Final Fours than any school ever. Like, to me, it's just as good of a job out there. It's, you know, I took it, I put it one notch above your Kentucky, Duke, Kansas, go on down the list there. But it's a very interesting time. So I, I hear what you're saying about the Indiana stuff. I think that's too harsh.
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B
Okay, well, it's, it is because they went to the finals just a couple of years ago.
- [27:33]
A
So they did go to the finals just a couple of years ago. They were a one seed, but they didn't make it to the Final Four. But they were a 1 seed. Hubert Davis is entering next season on the hot seat. I wrote about North Carolina and just in general, big, big picture with North Carolina in December after Belichick was hired, they lost on AJ DeBancer because they lost out on the bidding war there. DeBance is going to play at BYU, but North Carolina, super fast, fascinating for this angle, Matt, this upcoming season. So they, they, the, the donors, some of the donors, some of the most important donors around North Carolina. It's not that they turned their back on the basketball program, but they were giving more attention and money to football than ever before. And this was reinforced to me by a couple of people in that around Chapel Hill with North Carolina, like, like, even though Bill Belichick is now there. And yes, we saw the photos from media day earlier this week where he's just, you know, it's what you would expect. Just an army of cameras and reporters. Right. For the people that support the University of North Carolina, again, this is not my opinion. This is the opinion shared by people both at the university and support the school. Like the football program doesn't even come close to touching the basketball program. I guess you would understand the parallels.
- [28:45]
B
No, it's Kentucky. I mean, Caliperi. Caliperi had an issue, and I wonder if other schools have this where I think he was happy. Football was good, but once money starts coming into it, then these coaches are competing for donor money. And I do wonder, at a place like North Carolina, when you bring in a Belichick, like, there's gotta be some resentment from the football and basketball pro. It certainly happened at Kentucky in the Cal years.
- [29:11]
A
Now, that was quite obvious. There was definitely some consternation and unease. So what's, what's interesting about North Carolina is you say, like, okay, they feel like they're a blue blood that's really fading and struggling. On some level. That's true. But what is undeniable is that somehow some way that university in that athletic department on the football side, we're talking north of 40, maybe $50 million invested when you include contracts and player and all that stuff. And then the basketball program was able to jump north of 10 million after, I believe, last season. Last season I believe it was under 4 and now it was above 10 for this upcoming season. So they have invested. They have basically, they have given Hubert Davis, who now has a general manager and basically like a mini front office, as staff of three or four people that are. That are tasked with building out a roster. I actually think it might be a too many cooks in the kitchen situation, but Hubert Davis is unquestionably going into a hot seat season, needs to make the tournament with ease to keep his job. There was a lot of, you know, talk last season about how he should have been fired, period. But I think when you look at unc, even though it has been up and down a little bit of this, I think on balance, overall, you can't fire Hubert Davis just yet. There are, there is the other case though, that my co host Gary Paris said it on our podcast. He said, if you're at North Carolina and you look at what's happened so far and you look forward to the next five years, do you have the right coach? And if you want to say the answer is no, then what are you doing? Then go find the coach. Like, don't go through this for another year. But that's not what, that's not what happened. They're going to go through it for another year. And the athletic department there has all of this money invested into football and men's basketball. If you combined it all and you got the true number and you told me it was north of 65 million, I would completely believe that number. And there is no guarantee that either Coach Belichick or Hubert Davis will be the head coach at either of those programs one year from where we speak today. Huge, huge stuff upcoming for unc. By the way, I know there was a, I'm not super dialed in on the timeline with all this stuff, but I know, like there's something got aggregated about UNC looking to join the SEC or looking into it. That's a non story. I did report on this as well in December. This is one of many different aspects, but hiring Belichick for some donors at North Carolina comes with the idea of, hey, if we get Belichick, we become relevant, we're good in the ACC and we up our value over the next three, four years. Then maybe when it gets time to redo a lot of these media deals and at the end of, at the end of the decade, maybe we actually will have the validation if we want to explore to get into the sec. Like that's a big bargaining chip for us. So there is truth to that, but there's not even remotely anything close to immediate on it, let alone the SEC having genuine interest. So I know that kind of got some run this week, but I wanted to add at least a little.
- [31:45]
B
That's good to know. That's good to know. I'm a big advocate of having North Carolina the sec, but now I don't have to get my hopes up. Life moves fast, but every now and then you got to slow down and savor the goodness of it. That's where Cornbread Hemp comes in. Cornbread Hemp makes hemp wellness products that help folks like you relax, recharge and feel like your best self naturally. Whether you're calming a busy mind, soothing sore muscles or swapping out your evening drink, Cornbread's got something that fits your version of the good life and their new line of infused seltzers. Perfect for summertime, they're crisp, refreshing and delicious with a 5 milligram infusion for a gentle buzz without the booze. Or you can try their best selling gummies, oils and topicals for daily relief and better sleep. Head to cornbread.com Matt Jones Again the code is Matt Jones 30% off your first order. Cornbreadhemp.com Matt Jones the code is Matt Jones Cornbread Hemp. This is the good life. Let me ask you a big picture college basketball question. One thing you and I share is we both love college basketball. I mean I have a real affinity for people for whom college basketball is their favorite thing because it's been that way my entire life. I take a general view that yes, it's chaotic, yes, these rocks, yes it feels sometimes like the trains off the track, but that in general college basketball is in a much better place today than it was five years ago, eight years ago. That with people staying in school longer the quality of play is better. I think the interest is a little higher and I actually think college basketball nil has oddly been helpful. Maybe in a way it hasn't for college football. I actually think college basketball is in a decent spot right now. Do you agree with that?
- [33:34]
A
I do agree. Now I will preface this by saying I'm also someone who just as a function of loving the sport, like really just try and have my coverage of it reflect the genuine enthusiasm that I have for it while also giving plenty of room for criticism and skepticism where it does apply. If we had had this conversation in 2018, I would have acknowledged that there were some issues. But I still love the sport. But I do think that what you just said is accurate. In 2025 sport of college basketball is better than it was say in in 2017. This upcoming season we will have and we're coming up, we're like we're coming off of just having had Cooper flag. I actually think the one and done conversation that has existed for almost 20 years at this point has been long misguided. You would rather have one year of these superstars and not have them at all.
- [34:22]
B
Totally agree.
- [34:23]
A
The era of three or four year players, while it does happen every so often, you'll get a four. Like we're going to have it this year. Braden Smith is a recognizable four year player. He's going to be a preseason first team All American. He's coming back to college basketball. You still have that but you'd rather have one year of Cooper Flag, one year of Zion Williamson. Go on. Go on down the list with all those players. But you are having more players stay. So you'll have Braden Smith back. JT Toppin got more than 4 million in nil to return. He didn't even he would have probably been a first round pick. Didn't even entertain it to return and be arguably the preseason player of the year. He's a recognizable player obviously Braden Smith. I mentioned him other All Americans that will return this year. I'm trying to see who else might be PJ Haggerty was all American last season. He's on a different team but he's he's coming back.
- [35:04]
B
But there's even value in an Otago away coming back to Kentucky. Like it gives something for fans. What I like about the system now is there's a good contrast. You had the Duke one and dones playing against a Houston team with a lot of people that have been there and that contrast just sets up for good dichotomy in a game and I think fans like that.
- [35:26]
A
I agree with you. So I'm going to pull right now. Let me pull right I don't do every every October I rank the top 101 teams allegedly purported for the upcoming season of men's college basketball. But I don't I'd really start digging in on that in September and then we always publish it every October. I say that to say my buddy Gary Parrish. He does every time there's a significant transaction on the on the portal wire he updates his his off season top 25 and 1 rankings. So I'm just going to really quickly read you and these were in the last update was in June so there hasn't obviously been roster movement since then. But real quick the top 10 according to him heading into next season just to bolster your point Matt and what and what we've got here now he's got St. John's at number one which I appreciate because St. John's probably won't be the number one preseason team but it's going to be a preseason top five team. That's a lock. You've got Rick Pitino. He's as recognizable as any person in college basketball period in St. John's and the revitalization of that program based it's.
- [36:16]
B
Awesome for the sport.
- [36:17]
A
That's awesome. That's great for college basketball. Houston number two. Houston has been the number Some people may not realize this. The University of Houston under Kelvin Sampson the past four years has finished number two at Ken Palm and has essentially been a top three program over the past half decade in college basketball. We saw what happened in the it's coming off a brutal national championship game loss. It will still be awesome yet again will probably be the preseason number one team in the AP poll. That's number two. He's got BYU number three, AJ debance. That might be the number one pick in the next year's draft at worst. Unless, you know, knock on wood, barring injury, like he has really no excuse not to fall below. Like number three or number four. It's different. Variety is good. Byu, that's gonna, that's going to be a, a point of intrigue for a lot of fans that may not be dialed in in the summer. And then you get to October, November are gearing up for college hoops. What the heck's BYU doing here?
- [37:03]
B
Yeah, no, that'll. That way. And the money they're spending. It'll be interesting.
- [37:05]
A
Huge money, right? The huge money there. Purdue is number four. They've, you know, that's massive, massive fan base in the Big Ten. We saw they almost won a championship. You got UConn number five, Dan Hurley, face of the sport. I've maintained. You can love them, you can hate him, whatever. Having Dan Hurley in college basketball is a positive sport. I will not hear arguments otherwise. You can, you can hate what he does or how he reacts on the sideline. It is way better for college basketball to have a Dan Hurley than, you.
- [37:30]
B
Know, what I call him? Matt. It's the same thing in some ways. Cal was in his prime at Kentucky. He's a PTI coach, meaning he will give them things that PTI will talk about in their first segment. And college basketball needs people like that. And we don't have a lot. He's one of those.
- [37:46]
A
Correct. Unquestionably, number six is Florida. Just as an example. Florida coming off a national championship, reloaded in the SEC, going to be a preseason top 10 team. Unquestionably. Todd golden, not necessarily a PTI coach, but, but a smart young coach. And you've got, you've got a national champion coming back in this era of high transactions. And yet the Gators, I think, unquestionably deserve preseason top 10 status. Texas Tech is number seven. A ton of money there. JT Toppin, preseason All American, Michigan, number eight. Anytime Michigan is involved in any preseason poll in any sport, that's a big time thing. Dusty May made the Final Four. Considered one of the, you know, he's, he's too far now to be an up and comer, but you know what I'm saying, with that very recognizable. Duke is nine. Sorry, Kentucky is not in the preseason top 10.
- [38:25]
B
By the way, how is Kentucky not in the top 10? I thought you were going to say Kentucky.
- [38:29]
A
I'll get to a second. He's got Duke, number nine. Obviously Duke is Duke Dillon. They'll have Cam Boozer Duke, that's a good thing. And then UCLA, he's got number 10. I might quibble with UCLA being number 10, but UCLA also kind of clinging onto some blue blood status. Preseason top 10. Mick Cronin was good for seven viral moments at the microphone last year. He's got Arizona 11 and Kentucky 12. So even that, like if you expand out the top 10 and you go to the top 12, Arizona, big time hoop school, Tommy Lloyd, super smart, they've got some good dudes. And then he's got, he's got Kentucky 12. I swear I'm not saying this because I'm on the show with you and I haven't, again, I haven't really thought about it too deeply yet. I think on instinct, if you tell me quaintance will be okay with you. Bring back away. I do like Jasper Johnson Marino and Malachi Marino as some, some.
- [39:13]
B
Jalen Lowe is the key.
- [39:14]
A
Harrison takes a jump.
- [39:16]
B
Lowe's the key. I know you all don't. I know a lot of you guys don't like low, but he's the key.
- [39:22]
A
He is the key. And I just got to see what he's going to be. I think I'll, I think I would slot Kentucky 9 or 10 when we get to an October. Don't hold me to that. But I think, I think the worst case, again, what a team is what you think they'll be in October versus what they are in February. That's going to be very different things. I think objectively speaking, when you look at what Pope did in year one, Kentucky brings back. He's got him at 12. I think there's no excuse like 13, 14 is the worst. And I think you're ceiling going in. I think you could probably justify as good as like seven. Overall, it's really good stuff. Pope's done a really, really nice job. And it's been, it's been awesome to see just, it's been awesome to see how he has really adapted to having this job. And we can go wherever you want. But just a quick comment on this. I'm sure you've talked about this plenty of times on your show over the past year, plus, but Calipari, when he was hired at 2009, was the perfect guy at that job at the perfect time. And yes, it was a disappointment that in the, in the grand scheme, you look back, one national title, that's, that's a disappointment, no doubt about it. But he was the right guy with the right mindset to handle that job. And then for someone to Replace him, Pope, what he has upstairs, how he's built, how he's wired, man, that was another one where I.
- [40:32]
B
Well, it's perfect timing because he's completely different than Cal. But Cal was the perfect person at the time, and Pope was the perfect this time. Because Cal, in many ways, filled all the voids that the end of the Tubby era and Gillespie era had given us. He checked all the bad boxes, like he flipped them all. And then where Cal went off the rails, Pope flipped those. And I've told this story a lot on my regular show. I don't know if you know this story, but when I met Pope for the first time, like four months after he was hired, because I didn't. I was out of the country for three months after he got hired. And when I met him, I was like, you know, man, I have to tell you, if Khaled come back, I was probably going to quit. And I said, you being here and me going away for a while, and then he started going in this long thing about how I needed to keep doing it. And he then said something like, I. He said, when I lose, I want you to blast me. If you don't blast me, I'm going to call and get mad at you. Because the day the fans don't care anymore and the day the fans think the coach is above criticism, then this isn't Kentucky anymore. So he said, if you are ever soft on me, be ready. I'm going to ask you why now. We'll see if he really believes that one day. Cause I loved him this year and I'll probably continue to love him. But just the idea that was exactly what Kentucky fans needed in that moment. And I think the fact that two completely different people made it work in two completely different ways, I think has been really cool to see.
- [42:02]
A
I agree with you. And it's a bit easier to say this because now we're living in this reality, but you think about just Scott, Drew, Dan Hurley, those guys turning it down. And that's not to say that if either of them had taken it, Dan Hurley was never taken the Kentucky job, let's be clear about that. It was never happening. But either of them had taken it, that they could have had a success a year in and we'd be talking about, this is why this works, whatever. But, man, there's just something about Pope. The fact that he played there was on the 96 team, how he was wired, he was the captain, and he's even still got a. I mean, he's got he's got something. Like, he even said, I saw him on the trail and he was, he like jokingly was like, you know, when they fire me in a year, I was like, dude, you gotta stop saying that. Like, you are doing a great. Like, he's got a, he's got a self deprecating nature about him because I think a part of him is, part of him doesn't believe he has a job. And then he also, he's. He hasn't said this, but I remember Tony Bennett said. I went to Tony Bennett's retirement press conference last October and I'm going to paraphrase here, but Tony Bennett basically said like the job was never mine to begin with. I was just, I was just renting it in place and now it's time to give it away. And that is 100% the way Pope sees this. Like, he, he is, does not see it as it is his job. He is a placeholder for something that means a ton to people in that state that love that program so much. And, and he's, he's the right, he's the right guy for it. He really is. It'll be, it will be interesting. There will be down times. There will be some, there will be some tough stuff. I will be interested to see how he handles. So we saw a little bit of that last year, year one, but overall, big picture, like unquestionably a massive success.
- [43:35]
B
Yeah. And he gets the, There's a part of this where for Kentucky fans, they want to win, but they also have this like family thing where they, like a big blue nation, like where this, it just means different things to people here. And he gets that better than any coach that I've seen. Okay, so you and I had a, I don't say a disagreement because I, as I said on my show today, if Matt Norlander said it, I know that he heard it. And so I'm not going to dispute him on that. But you had said that someone had told you on the trail that of the. Basically, you know, $18 million that will be distributed between football and basketball at most schools, most schools are kind of putting 2.5 to the other sports that you thought it could even be like 9 and 9 at Kentucky of football and basketball. So I tweeted out that you said that. And I'm going to go ahead and tell you, I mean, I haven't got to tell you this privately, but all of a sudden I kept hearing from everyone in the football world at uk, it wasn't the basketball. It wasn't the football world just all of a sudden, just sometimes when people, like, you put stuff out and I retweet it, people act like I put it out and they get mad at me. And so they're writing me and they go, how could you say that? It's not that. It's not that. And then insisted that it was the opposite and that they didn't give me a number, but essentially that it was competitive between UK and the other SEC schools in football. I found that interesting because it used to be that UK football would privately complain that there wasn't as much money going. So I don't know what the basis of that is, but. But I've explained on my show why I said it. The 9 and 9 talk about where you heard that and why.
- [45:10]
A
So here's what I have. Okay, So I was on the trail, and I got it from two different sources. One source said Kentucky men's basketball should be getting close to half of the revenue share, which I understood to be 20.5 million. Okay. Of the overall 20.5 million. And then another source specifically gave me 45%. So I said, okay. So that's when I wrote, yeah, it's very. Well, how about this? So I put. So that's two sources. And so I intentionally. When I wrote, I was like, okay, I'm gonna put this out there. Kentucky fans are gonna see it. And, like, I know there'll probably be some reaction to it, but I. Two good sources pass this along to me. And I wrote, believed to be, not is, but believed to be. That's fair. That's two connected sources, providing that I then had two. So this is two for the story. Then you put out what you put out that was like, hey, football. Or I heard from sources that to the degree which it was stated wasn't that level. Well, then I had another. How about this? I had another source, to be clear, in the industry, not at Kentucky, contacted someone with Kentucky, shared a screenshot with me that said UK. I'm looking at the screenshot right now from July 9, by the way. UK next year will have a 45% go to basketball and 50% to football. That's a third source. And then a fourth source connected to Kentucky reinforced to me that the number was accurate, that it indeed, the plan. I'll stress this. The plan was for men's basketball for the forthcoming season to have a 45% rev share of the entire 20.5 million cap. Now, this is the other extremely important part of this discussion. One. Two parts, actually. One Does. Does Mitch Barnhart technically have the capacity in August, September, October, November to say it was 50% for football now, but actually this needs to go to 57% or 60%. Does he, Willie? I don't know. And then number two, since my story came out, literally the CSC changed its guidelines to a point where, if so, this could have even changed in the past 24 hours to this point, if that's going to actually be true, and football then needs to go from purportedly 50% to 60 to 70% in its budget and then allows Kentucky basketball to basically make up the difference in nil. That's an important factor as well. But as one source also told me and we talked about for Kentucky football, this I cannot speak to. I'm just passing it along. I can't speak to how valid this is or not. They basically were saying on some level, if Kentucky football is getting 50% of its nil rev share cap or it's getting 70%, does that 20% difference, does it actually make any kind of difference whatsoever in terms of what kind of football team Kentucky will field? If it's 70% or 50%, are you having the same exact team? And then this other source put, put forth to me that Stoops, they're really turning the screws on him. And the situation was with Stoops two, three years ago. Again, I cannot speak to this. I'm just passing along what was told to me, the situation was Stoops two, three years ago versus what it is now, obviously not nearly as rosy. And so if you're trying to. It's a little bit like some other coaching situation we've seen where if you're on the brink and you want to make a decision, well, you might not make it as easy as possible to make that decision, whether or not to move on easier. I'm sure he has a massive buyout, but I'm just passing along what was pass.
- [48:18]
B
Yeah, well, okay. So now when you tell me you have four sources, I'm more. I'm more inclined to believe you than. Than. Than what I heard.
- [48:26]
A
But it would make sense, by the way, Matt, for football people to want to push back on this because you do not want to have it known in the SEC that Kentucky has the lowest amount of rubs.
- [48:35]
B
But what's weird to me about that, I totally agree with you. But what's weird to me about that, and this is, I can just say to you, because I have for 15 years taken phone calls from either basketball, football or the ads complaining about something I've said like that's been a regular part life going back to about 2008. So. But when the whole basketball football school thing was going on here, okay, that little stoops Cal here, both sides would, would want to contact me to make clear what was wrong with the other side. Okay. The basketball people were very adamant to criticize the football people and the football people were very adamant to criticize the basketball people. It would always be funny to me when I would see people online go, oh, this is not that big a deal. And I'd be like, yes, it's, it is. You just have to come and listen to my phone calls. It has been very rare for the people on the football side to. If they think they're getting hoes, they say it. Right. And so it was interesting to me that they didn't want to say that. Now a lot of this is like, we don't really know because we don't know how they make up the money in the other parts. Are these universities even going to have to tell us? Like, do you know, like are the universities going to ever have to say what they actually did?
- [49:50]
A
Depends on how they run their systems. I, you know, Kentucky isn't Kentucky taking some of its stuff independently as an athletic.
- [49:55]
B
But they told me that they would still release everything they would release. I think they should.
- [50:00]
A
And I just want to reemphasize this. I. As I understand it, I do think sometimes reporting can trigger other action. So if this was the intention for Kentucky, I still think if there's enough internal blowblack or whatever, I still think there's a chance that the number actually winds up getting adjusted, especially after the rule changed.
- [50:18]
B
I think that's a very important point, man. I want you don't skip over that because you're more, you're a reporter. I'm not. Reporting can change. Action happens all the time. And sometimes it happens and then people say the reporter was wrong and you were actually right and the reaction to your report got them to change the course. I think that happens a lot.
- [50:38]
A
That sometimes can happen. But, but I would say this. If you're Kentucky. I know, I know football still means a good great deal and you do not want to be in the basement of a 16 team sec. From a football standpoint, I completely get that whatsoever. But you can't, you cannot. You have a really, really good head coach. And men's basketball from a talent acquisition standpoint, when individual players, with the exception of a quarterback obviously mean more in basketball, college basketball, football, I understand that getting a great edge rusher, an amazing left tackle, you know, first round draft pick as a wide receiver, but particularly quarterback. I understand how much those things can mean in the portal. I'm just telling you in terms of star players, from what I've gathered, this is 2, 3 years worth of anecdotes and stories from coaches, agents, etc. The basketball market is more expensive than the football market. There's more money into football because the rosters are bigger. But if you want to maintain a competitive edge in Kentucky, as you well know, I actually, I don't believe Kentucky spent 20 million on its roster for this upcoming season. I would believe north of 15, 16. Maybe we're getting into semantics there, but.
- [51:42]
B
Really, you think 15 or 16 million this year?
- [51:46]
A
I would believe that if that was. Yeah. If you told me Kentucky, if you told me Kentucky, truly, if we could have a way to peek into the accounting. If we fast forwarded to say, New Year's Day and said, you know, collectively on Kentucky's men's basketball roster, how much has been allotted or will be allotted. If you told me that was in the range of 15 million, I would 100% believe that and they would not be the only school to hit that number. Now there has been, I don't. Has there been like reports. I know the 20 million number has been associated.
- [52:14]
B
It's been said out there. I don't know to what.
- [52:16]
A
That's. That's an outrageous amount. Now what I do think is possible, and I want to be very clear about this, this is now me speculating. This is not reporting. This is nothing anyone indicating to me, I do think it's possible that if Kentucky, before this rule changed, and they're not the only one, wanted to get ahead of it because I referenced a school in my story, but I don't identify which school and it's not Kentucky. To be clear on this, if they wanted to front load their all of their nil money, which would have been the smart thing to do. So frankly, if Pope and his staff had the ability to do this, they should have done it front load everything before July 1st. What you basically do is you double your rev share cap allowance for the next year. And that basically puts you at a super advantage against most other schools. There might be a couple other schools that are in your neighborhood when it comes to that stuff. But bottom line is this. Kentucky needs to make sure that basketball is consistently the most important thing at its school because it is the most important thing. And finding that balance between revenue distribution between the men's basketball program and the football program is. Barnhart doesn't have an easy job. I get that there's a lot of pressures with it, but don't allow Kentucky to enter into a situation where it's where North Carolina is right now.
- [53:21]
B
Yeah.
- [53:21]
A
Because it was very briefly there.
- [53:23]
B
Yeah.
- [53:24]
A
With Billy Gillespie in different circumstances.
- [53:27]
B
You never want to go back to that with Cal. Like, that's where we were headed with Cal. They were not raising money. They were. They were about to be there with Cal. I will say this to make you, I don't know, feel better, but when when your report came out that said 45% or whatever, most of the fan base said Good. That was what most of the fan base. When I did a little thing on my show and I said what should it be? And everyone said it should be what Norlander is reporting or more. I mean it's fascinating how much this fan base likes when football is good. It's fun. But they basketball has to be good. And I think that. That most people were hoping you were right are right about that. So I guess we'll see. I guess we'll finish with this. You've been doing this. You were doing the island college basketball since what. Oh, wait, you said oh. 9.
- [54:26]
A
If we want to get really technical not to go into the lore. I started was before I had cbs. I had a blog back in the day. Anyone listening or watching that remembers reading a college hoops journal. So I technically started College Hoops journal podcast in 2010. I want it might have been 09 actually. And that eventually morphed into ion college basketball in 2011.
- [54:48]
B
So yeah, that's. That's when I was there too. So I started KSR in 05. So we're hitting our 20th anniversary in September. That was a website at first. So give me your Matt Norlander sits down. He writes his memoir. Give me your favorite moment covering games or your favorite moment where you say that's my this is. Was the best thing I saw during my time doing this.
- [55:14]
A
Okay. First of all, no one's reading my memoir but I appreciate that. Okay. Since I got to cbs, the one thing that I'm happiest that I was there and there's been a lot but being in the building to see Chris Jenkins hit the winner against Carolina in 2016. That's the only like out and out true buzzer beater in NCAA tournament history. Wittenberg learns or Charles NC State 83. Like kind of qualifies but kind of doesn't. The shot was an Air ball. Wittenberg dunked it and then there was still time in the clock. But they didn't stop the clock aftermate basket in 83. I'm getting into technicalities there. Jenkins would be there getting to cover Tony Bennett and Virginia winning the 2019 title. That's in my top 25 stories list. I think some folks don't quite remember how outrageous it was that Virginia won the title because they had basically from the Elite eight on and even the sweet sixteen was a four point win over Oregon. But the Purdue game, Carson Edwards goes for 42 overtime. Mama DD Aquita hits the buzzer beater to get overtime. Then they escape and they escape against Auburn controversially in the final four and then they. Then they have to rally to get to overtime in the title game against Texas Tech.
- [56:20]
B
And then they Weren't they even losing in their first round game again.
- [56:23]
A
They were. Yeah. Great memory. I actually I have one line in there. People forget that so they lose to you. This obviously comes one year never seen a 16B to one. UMBC destroys Virginia 7,454 20 point win in 2018. It was just bizarre to wait forever for 16 to be to one and it was a blowout. That was just. That remains a weird thing. A year later Virginia wins the title but in the first round. Gardner Webb they were losing in the first half of that game too. Yes, that's a very good memory. So just being able to document that I really got to know Tony Bennett well in the. In the two or three years preceding that. Got to know his father well, interviewed his sister, his wife. So that, that was just. It was cool to be able to. Because Tony Bennett was. He remained closed off to a certain extent. He was just not someone that needed to have everyone know everything about his life. He wasn't. Wasn't, you know, especially private. But he kind of let me in a little bit. So that was. That was appreciated. There's been plenty man. I'm just. The Jenkins one is definitely number one.
- [57:17]
B
Well so. So a couple that just stick out that I wondered you about Duke. Carolina playing in the Final four was probably pretty.
- [57:24]
A
Also huge. I was also in the building. So that would be top five. The, the final form was huge. But I was in Cameron when Carolina beat Duke on the final night.
- [57:32]
B
Yeah, that's cool. I think for me personally the John Wall team was amazingly fun. But I would think as an outsider watching, I mean watching the 2015 team try to go undefeated was kind of. I mean that was a rare time in college basketball that the world of college basketball was following every game to kind of see if they were going to be able. And there was that game at LSU where they won at the end and there was, it was just like a, it was a storyline all season. Then college basketball doesn't get that a lot and they got it that year.
- [58:00]
A
But as your fans listening know and I was there, I. I really should try and sit down and like do a top 10 of games I covered because this game would be in the top five. Notre Dame almost beat Kentucky. Should have in the elite. Yeah, it was an incredible game.
- [58:13]
B
Amazing. Cleveland. Ashley Judd ended up on my post game show dancing on a glass table in the lobby of a Cleveland hotel. It won't be as big a deal to you, but Kentucky, Louisville in the Final Four kind of like Duke, Carolina had that, that had that sort of really bizarre, bizarre situation. And then for us the Aaron Harrison run of all those shots that he hit.
- [58:36]
A
No, I know those were good. I mean I've been at every final Four so to get to experience a lot of that covering the COVID I.
- [58:43]
B
Was going to ask you what was that one like?
- [58:47]
A
Weird but good. But I don't think I'd want to do it again. You got to get tested like every day. But it was like I covered NCAA tournament games at Hinkle Field House. That's awesome. You know the situation with how they played in half of Lucas Oil Suggs hits the 37 footer to get to the title game. And then Baylor, you know, Gonzaga was the other team undefeated going into a national championship game in a Covid season. You know those were really fun, really cool things to cover. There's, there's, there's no Zion stuff.
- [59:16]
B
I mean Zion, I mean he's the biggest.
- [59:19]
A
I did a thing earlier this year I'm big on just like you know, wanting to document the. In Chronicle, you know, the things that matter in a given sport. And I so earlier this year I did not. The best players, the biggest stars, two different things. Sometimes those things intersect. I don't think it's the most accomplished player of this century is Tyler Hansbrook at unc. He has all these ACC records for your player. Three time first team all American, you know, never lost at Cameron. He's the most decorated player. Zion Williamson was the biggest star even for at one year. There was no one, I guess the most basic way that I could put it and I just don't think this is arguable in men's basketball. Caitlin Clark is the most famous college basketball Player of the past 25 years in men's. There was no one that was more famous while in college than Zion Williamson. He had presidents coming to his games and it just. He played for Duke. He had a megawatt smile. He looked different from anyone we'd ever seen. I got to cover obviously a lot of him in person as well. So he was big. I'll just a couple more that kind of stick out. Like, like going into Manhattan to cover an FBI trial and like covering the whole. Everything, everything associated with that was, I mean then that was a two year saga that was extremely, extremely surreal. So you know, that was, that was a big one as well. But you know, as we kind of put a button on this and, and go full circle, there's been so much that has happened to college basketball over the past 25 years that, you know, creating a list of the top 25 and one stories just, it's not.
- [60:49]
B
Oh, it's a great list. It's a great list. It's on CBS sports dot com. Yeah, your Zion point. Just as you would agree, right? I would agree. I would agree. It's sort of the argument like at Kentucky, if you were just due Kentucky two different questions. Best player of my lifetime, Anthony Davis, biggest star, John Wall. Like those are two different things. And John Wall is the biggest basketball star at Kentucky of my lifetime. He's probably the biggest Kentucky athlete of my lifetime. I mean it's, it's Rex Chapman and John Wall that's. There are rock stars in, in Kentucky basketball. Anthony Davis is great. Dan Issel is great rock stars, Rex Chapman and John Wall. And no one else is close.
- [61:31]
A
How about that? Anthony Davis was just not like John Cover. And then I think, I mean you.
- [61:36]
B
Remember you mentioned presidents coming. We had Jay Z, LeBron, Magic Drake. All those dudes came. Did they come to see Anthony Davis? They came to see John Wall. I mean that's it.
- [61:48]
A
And a lot of that and obviously as you well know, some of that was Cal's first year and everything just dovetailing there. And there are a few very interesting should have happened slash, what ifs. One of them is that that Kentucky team didn't make the Final Four. Should have. They play West Virginia 10 times. They probably go eight and two. Yeah, that was like two, two of the 10 when they don't get the win. But yeah, what a, what a time that was just to think about, man, it wasn't that long ago. But it does feel like, you know.
- [62:19]
B
Feels like a different world snowing in Syracuse during that game as well. Matt Norlander Great stuff. Thank you very much for doing this cbs sports.com we appreciate it and I'm sure we'll do it again maybe during the season.
- [62:31]
A
Hey, have a wonderful, wonderful summer. Appreciate you having me on that.
- [62:34]
B
You as well.
- [62:35]
A
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