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- [00:00]
Advertisement Voice
You know what your customers are doing right this second? The exact same thing. You are listening to me. Which, let's be honest, is kind of flattering. But my point Is, ads on iHeartRadio actually get heard in the car, at the gym, on the couch, while people are walking their dogs.
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Noam Weissman
Who's a good boy? Who's a good boy? You're a good boy.
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Matt Jones
That's right there. You're a good.
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Advertisement Voice
So why not make the next ad about you? Get started today. Call 844-844-IHEART or go to iheartadvertising.com that's 844-844-iheart or iheartadvertising.com this is Interrupted by.
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Matt Jones
Matt Jones on Newsradio 840.
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Noam Weissman
Whas now, here's Matt Jones.
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Matt Jones
It is episode 22 of Interrupted by Matt Jones, presented by Cornbread Hemp. This is the good life. And I have to tell you, I'm excited about this one. You may remember in episode one had Bomani Jones on who is a legitimate real world good friend of mine. And now we have the second time that's happened. I'm not interviewing strangers. Josh Hopkins. So this is the third time it's happened. Gnome Weissman. I have to pronounce his. I had to be very particular about his name. He is, for those of you that have listened to me, he is part of my Aspen Institute fellowship. The nerdy thing that pulls me away from the show four times in the last two years. And now he's joining me. He's the host of Understanding Israeli History. A pod. Wait a minute. You're in a. Unpacking.
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Noam Weissman
It's unpacking.
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Matt Jones
Unpacking. Excuse me, I gotta get the name right. Unpacking Israeli History. A great podcast with a big audience and he teaches around the country about Israel and all the circumstances around it. Noam, it is exciting to have you and it's an honor. It's also just good to see you.
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Noam Weissman
Yeah. So good to see you, Matt. Matt, I gotta tell your whole audience, Matt, you are. Everyone should know this about you. And they probably listen to you, so they get it. Matt is the MVP of the Aspen Fellowship. It's true. It's true. Matt. If we were to all vote, I am sure that Matt would win mvp. And it's because of your personality, it's because of your interest, it's because of your care of everyone. So I'm just so pumped to be here with you.
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Matt Jones
That actually means a lot. Thank you for saying that. It was two years ago about this time that we met that our first thing was. I remember it because. You remember it probably because it was a couple of weeks after the attack on October 7th. I remember it because Kentucky was playing Alabama that weekend in football, which probably showcases the two ways we often. Everybody goes through the world themselves. But I remember meeting in Montgomery and going, what am I going to do with all of these people from all over? And it's been a great honor to do it. And when you speak, the group listens, in part because you have a great presence and in part because you pause and take so long that we have to stay completely into it to hear it, which I love.
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Noam Weissman
That's hilarious, Matt. I'm just thinking about what I'm saying. I'm just, like, trying to be reflective and whatever. But here's also the truth, Matt. You pretend like we're all nerds in this fellowship. You're just as nerdy as the rest of us.
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Matt Jones
Oh, I am. I'm a huge nerd. I'm completely a nerd. But it's great. And later on, I'm gonna get a little bit about what we do there, because my audience never. I always have a hard time explaining it, but here's why I wanted to have you on. I. I think you do a great job of sort of, you've done this with me. When I first met you, I think I said to you, you asked me a question about what I thought of the Israel, Palestine situation. I think I said to you that I had almost no thoughts because I didn't know much about it, and you seemed very surprised. I was wondering if you'd talk me through that reaction. And. And we're all a product of where we are. And I think a lot of people that are listening to this are like that. When I said that to you, what did you think and what was it like for you to hear? Here's a person that seems to not even have a thought on it.
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Noam Weissman
I'll tell you exactly what I thought. I thought a few things. One is, hey, listen, Matt, you are a smart guy. You are a knowledgeable guy. You are a studious guy, a learned guy, and you are somebody who reads the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal or whatever you read, right? You must have seen this on the front cover of so many newspapers around the world. And come on. Like, you don't have Matt Jones doesn't have an opinion on this. That was thought number one. Thought number two was, wow, I am living in my own little bubble that I think that this is what's on everyone's mind. Yeah, it's in the news. Okay. But like it's not in every. It's not on your mind. And you're a smart, thoughtful guy. And then number three was, I don't know if you remember this. You taught me melungeons about melungeons. Remember this? I didn't. And then I had no idea what that word was. And I think that I'm a knowledgeable, civilized person and I didn't know anything about melungeons. And then we had this like two hour conversation about melungeons and about what we know and what we don't know. And I didn't know if it was a derogatory term or not a derogatory term. Then I felt like I wanted to make sure that I wasn't saying the wrong thing. And that's like a microcosm for, I think the way a lot of the world works, that the world does not, does not simply revolve around what we think is the most important thing, but it's important to kind of get out there and hear from each other. And so that's. That was my initial reaction.
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Matt Jones
And you have made me. I used to glaze over everything about honestly Israel and the various issues in that region because I thought, I don't know this and it's too complicated and I'm not going to pay attention. That's exactly what I've thought about it for 30 years. And then since meeting you, I've started to follow it more. And I think a lot of people want to know more and feel it's been from two years ago till now. It's been a much more talked about thing, I think, in mainstream American politics. So I want to help you have you help me guide through this from your perspective. You do the podcast Unpacking Israeli History. I'm not going to ask you to sum up Israeli history in one minute, but. But the roots of the current issue with Israel and Palestine. If you were to explain to people a one to two minute primer on how we got here today, or at least to where we were on October 7th of two years ago, what's the best way you would explain that?
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Noam Weissman
I would say it is. The first thing I would want everyone to know is it's okay for things to be complex. And when people try to make something that is complex simple, they're doing a disservice to the world. That's number one. Number two is I would say that there are competing claims from two different Peoples to the same land, to the same territory, to the same area. And there are different reasons why these two different peoples have had a claim. One reason is religion, right? There's Islam, there's Judaism. And the Palestinians say, hey, listen, this is a land that we have conquered over the years. And when you're a Muslim and you have the conquered land, there's something called dar al Islam, which means that you had land at one point in time. Now I don't return that land to anyone. And Judaism says, one second, hey, we for 3,000 years have had a connection to this land of Israel. There was the first temple, there was the second temple that was destroyed 2,000 years ago. And since then, the Jewish people have been praying to return to that land. They pray three times a day, actually praying to return to that land. And in the late 19th century, when there was an opportunity to actually make that dream come alive, the Jewish people started making that dream come alive. In the early 1900s, the Jews only represented around 10% of the land of Palestine. In 1937, it represented around 30, 33%. And by around 1947, when the partition plan was determined by the United nations, the United nations said, Hey, 33 of us are voting in favor of a Jewish and an Arab state. Thirteen of us are voting against it, and 10 of us are going to abstain. That was the second time that a two state solution, that term that people hear was suggested. The first time was in 1937. The Arab world rejected it. They said, no, Jewish people are colonizers coming to colonize this land. They're just an extension of Europeans. And the Jewish people said, no, we are returning to our ancient homeland since then, since 1947, from 1940.
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Matt Jones
Let's stop, if you don't mind. Let me stop with 1947. I want to go back to before. So. So at its core, this conflict, and I'm not just talking about in the last two years, but the overall big picture conflict is two people, two groups of people who both see a particular. Is it the same piece of land? The exact same piece of land? Yes, it is exact same.
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Noam Weissman
It's the exact same piece of land.
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Matt Jones
So they both see the exact same piece of land as being theirs.
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Noam Weissman
Yeah.
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Matt Jones
From historical, religious perspectives, is that fair to say? And tell me, when we talk about this land, I think people get confused. You have Israel, you have Palestine, you have Gaza. What is the piece of land that we're talking about specifically?
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Noam Weissman
Okay, so the land of Israel is the land that includes what's called the West Bank? Yes, the west bank of Jordan. And the way the Jewish people often refer to it is Judea and Samaria and also many Christians, because that's what it's called in the Bible. And that's one piece of the land. Then there's to the west of that, that's like there's Jerusalem. And then to the west of that, all the way to Tel Aviv on the coast, which is like just an awesome place to go and live and party and have a good time. Matt, we got to go there sometime because it's a lot of fun.
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Matt Jones
I would love to go one day. I'm not sure if today is the day, but one day I will go.
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Noam Weissman
We'll get there, Matt. We'll get there.
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Matt Jones
All right.
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Noam Weissman
That's considered the. The state of Israel that is to the west of that west bank, southwest of that is called Gaza. Okay, Gaza. I have to give you the history here, because all of this is confusing. From 48 to 67, there was a war that was fought in 1948 for the Jewish state to exist. Okay? The Jewish state was fought against by different Arab armies, not Palestinian. Yet there were different Arab armies like Egypt and Syria and Jordan. And what happened was the state of Israel was created a Jewish state. The one and only Jewish state in the world. The Jewish people don't have any interest in having more than one state. They just want one state.
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Matt Jones
And prior to 1948, that would have been a different state.
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Noam Weissman
There was no Jewish state.
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Matt Jones
No, I know. But what was that piece of land before 19?
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Noam Weissman
Piece of. Before 1948, that region was known as Palestine.
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Matt Jones
And it was. And who. Who governed it?
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Noam Weissman
From 1917 to 1948, it was the Brits. And until 1917, for 500 years, it was the Ottomans.
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Matt Jones
So it was never Palestinian in government. It was governed by British colonializing.
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Noam Weissman
It was never a Palestine as a country. But to explain that nationality and nationalism wasn't a real thing. All countries were being formed in the early 20th century. And in the late 19th century, that was the movement of nationalism. So in 1948, Israel defeats these five Arab armies. There were only around 600,000 Israelis. Around 1% of these Israelis were killed at this time, which is a crazy number to think about. 6,000 were killed. It's 1%. I don't try to think of the American equivalent of that. I don't know what that number is. And Gaza went to Egypt. Egypt won Gaza. There's a lot of people don't know this. And Jordan, the country of Jordan. I always think of Michael Jordan, the goat. When I say Jordan, no matter what, I just think of Jordan, Michael Jordan. But Jordan won the West Bank. What happened was from 48 to 67, Egypt did not give Palestinians citizenship. From 48 to 67, the West Bank Jordan gave some form of citizenship to the Palestinians living there. And then in 1967, everything changed. Everything changed.
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Matt Jones
So then Israel, through the course of a war, I believe, did they take over both of those?
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Noam Weissman
In 1967, everything changed. Israel tripled in size. There was a war called the Six Day War in which Egypt was threatening to annihilate Israel to say the Jewish people, Jewish state will no longer exist anymore. His name is Gamal Abdel Nasser. And he said, we are going to destroy the Jewish state. Israel then did what's called a preemptive strike, destroyed all their airplanes. It was crazy.
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Matt Jones
Is it fair to say? And again, I want to try to give this. I want to hear your take on it, but also want to try to give it as fair. Is it fair to say that that is the Israeli perspective, that it was a preemptive strike, or is it. Is that you think that's objective? If I were to have a Palestinian scholar on how would they describe it?
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Noam Weissman
So great question and it's the right question. So behind me are all these books that I recommend everyone to read always you have to learn Palestinian narratives and Israeli narratives. I'm not presenting either the Palestinian or the Israeli narrative on anything, but these books. I always recommend Once Upon a Country by Sari Nusaiba, where the line is drawn by Raja Shahada. And then you should also read books like Arabs and Israelis, Palestine 1936 and like dreamers, get as wide of a view as possible. I did a three part series in unpacking his early history about 67, showing the different perspectives, how the Arabs viewed 67 and how the Israelis viewed 67. I think both would argue, no matter what, that this was a preemptive strike. The question is whether or not Israel was right to do the preemptive strike, whether there was what's called a casus belli. You know law much better than I do, Matt. But whether or not you can explain what a casus belli is, but whether there were the threat of annihilation of Israel and whether or not the closing of the Strait of Tehran was considered a good enough threat to therefore suggest and to remove the United Nations.
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Matt Jones
So what was the Israeli moral argument? Not just for the. For the preemptive strike, but the argument that after that Six Day War they should be Able to. To take Gaza in the West Bank. What's the, what's the moral? Or is it just a land grab? What's the moral strike?
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Noam Weissman
Definitely not a land grab. I think that there are those. Let me make the argument that it is a land grab first, though. The argument that it is a land grab would say, hey, listen, no one actually attacked you. They just threatened to attack you. No one actually did anything like that. And what you did after the Six Day War is you got the Sinai, right? We forgot about that, which is bigger than all of Israel. You got Gaza, the southwest, you got the west bank to the east, and you got the Golan to the north. It seems like you tried to grab some land which is for and for your reasons might be either because for security purposes to say, hey listen, we're not going to now be what they used to call it the Auschwitz borders because of how narrow Auschwitz being the worst concentration camp and death camp that the Jewish people went through during the Holocaust. The. They called it the Auschwitz borders because of how narrow the land of Israel was without the West Bank. So what you tried to do is you tried to assert your authority and you tried to grab the land that you won.
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Matt Jones
Use the idea of this potential threat to just do what you wanted to do anyway, which was expand your territory.
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Noam Weissman
Exactly like you use this as a quite a great moment to now somehow triple in size.
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Matt Jones
So what's the counter to that?
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Noam Weissman
The counter to that would be. No, we actually, me, we in this case being the Israelis, had no interest in fighting these wars. And we proved it because in 1948, we settled to not have Jerusalem, we settled to not have the West Bank. We retreated in the 1956 war after President Eisenhower said, you guys got to stop. That was a previous war. And the counter is that in 1967, after Israel won this war in a crazy decisive way in six days, that they then had negotiations amongst themselves and with others about what to do with this land in the West Bank. And they would say, hey, listen, we gave back the Sinai in the late 70s, right? We gave that back to Egypt. Israel doesn't have that anymore. The counter is that Israel gave up Gaza in 2004, 5 and that doesn't exist anymore. And the counter would be that in 19.
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Matt Jones
Okay, but I want to go back to 60. I appreciate that you would today look back and go, we gave this back. But is it fair to say that in 1967 you ended up giving all that back in 1967, though on that day you didn't know you were going to give it back. And to some extent that was a land grab, maybe land that you believe historically you should have, but that it was a land grab that is.
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Noam Weissman
It is a land that you historically believe is yours. But what happened was two months after this war, something tremendous happened. They actually did not. There was no settlements at this time. You know the term settlement.
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Matt Jones
Yes.
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Noam Weissman
Didn't exist. That didn't start in earnest until the mid-70s. And until the 80s, it didn't happen. And that's something people don't know. It started later on. What happened was In September of 1967, the Arabs got together in what's called Khartoum, in a city called Khartoum. And they said after this war, something that I think has never been said before. It's called the Three Nos. Everyone should check it up. It's called the Cartoon Resolution, by the way. This is something. Never trust anything. Everyone. Never trust everything anyone says. Like.
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Matt Jones
But I want to go back. I'm not trying to cut you off, but I need you to in order to kind of keep advancing. I do want to make sure that we acknowledge that fact before whatever they did two months later, before everything was given. You do think in 1967, Israel did it to expand territory because they believed it was theirs historically?
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Noam Weissman
No, No, I do not believe.
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Matt Jones
You do not. Okay, so I do not.
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Noam Weissman
No, no, no, no. I believe that there are those who would say that that's part of the Israeli.
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Matt Jones
So why do you believe they did it?
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Noam Weissman
Oh, I believe they did it because they were. They had a preemptive. They had major concerns about Egypt from the south and Syria from the north. And they got rid of all of the different. The UN personnel in between the two. And I think that they were shocked beyond belief.
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Matt Jones
But I'm saying after the Six Day War, their decision to continue to inhabit it and claim it.
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Noam Weissman
They didn't. That's what I'm saying. They didn't inhabit it.
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Matt Jones
Okay.
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Noam Weissman
They did not. There was no inhabiting.
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Matt Jones
Okay.
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Noam Weissman
I think that they were very concerned and confused as to what to do. You just got all these Palestinian Arabs now under your authority in Gaza and the West Bank. What in the world do we do? They never annexed it. If they annexed it, I'd be like, oh, okay, well, that was what they.
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Matt Jones
Were trying to do under your authority. I mean, you. The Israel chose to have it under their authority.
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Noam Weissman
Well, kind of. Who are they going to give it back to?
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Matt Jones
Well, I mean, they could have had a ceasefire. I mean, again, I'm speaking about What? I don't know. Tell me if I'm wrong. They could have had a ceasefire to war that returned the borders to where they were before the war. War.
- [20:14]
Noam Weissman
You're saying you're going to be attacked by these people, you defeated them in war and now you say here's the land back.
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Matt Jones
Well, I mean the United States has been in wars and then given the land back. I mean like the United States has won wars. We didn't take over Germany, we didn't take over Japan. I mean that would have been an option, correct?
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Noam Weissman
Well, maybe if, but if Mexico and Canada were to get in a major war with the United States of America, they were next door neighbors, which is very different than Germany, I think. And that, and that's a totally, I think that would be a very fair question to ask. If the US was attacked and threatened annihilation by Mexico and Canada and right by the border and they were told, hey listen, we will kill you if we have the opportunity.
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Matt Jones
Okay, so you would argue like from a safety perspective, you're saying that they sort of take it. Okay, fair enough.
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Noam Weissman
I understand that this is really important. I'm not saying at all that Israel made the right decision, okay. At all by, by inhabiting the, the borders after, after the 67 war. I'm not saying they made the right decision. I think that that question is up for dispute and I, and I want to see and shared Palestinian and Israeli narratives on this whole, on the, on the whole situation. There was and that's. But this moment I need to tell you about in Khartoum is really important, okay? It changed everything. The war was fought in June of 67. Okay. I'm not going to math three months later. Three months later, nothing. It was vague. What in the world is going to happen with this land? We don't know. We don't know what's going to happen in, in Judea and Samaria, in the heartland of the history of the Jewish people. We don't know. And at this moment in time, the cartoon resolution says what's called the three Nos. No peace with Israel. No, no negotiations with Israel, no recognition of Israel. And when that happened, I think what it did is it was someone said this line, it's the first time that somebody has lost a war and was sued for peace and rejected it. Like they lost, they lost that war. And so what I always come back to is what ifs, what if that never happened?
- [22:27]
Matt Jones
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Noam Weissman
67 is huge.
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Matt Jones
Okay, so you get tonight. And then you said over time you give back the Sinai. And I want to clarify your language.
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Noam Weissman
Because I need to. It's not your. I'm American with you. I'm American with. Fair enough. So it's not you. Excuse me, Israelis. I'm not.
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Matt Jones
No, that's important because I actually want to ask you some questions about that in a minute too. So the Sinai is returned from Israel, as is Gaza. Now there's this.
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Noam Weissman
No, but kind of. But they're totally different. So what happened was in a piece, and this is also really interesting, in a peace agreement between Egypt and Israel. Anwar Sadat was an Arab leader who is a hero. A hero. He flew to Jerusalem, the first Arab leader. And at this point in time, Egypt was the unrivaled leader of the Arab world. He flew to Jerusalem and he's the one who said, let's figure out a deal. Let's make peace with each other. It took a couple of years, but Jimmy Carter together with Menachem Begin together with Anor Sadat, then made peace. Egypt and Israel have had peace since the early 80s, since what's called the first Camp David Accords. And Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt, which was a huge political decision. And that happened in the early 80s.
- [24:52]
Matt Jones
Yes, I vaguely know that. And then you had. Tell me quickly because I do want to get to today in the 90s when that the famous Yasser Arafat stands there, Bill Clinton, tell me what happens.
- [25:05]
Noam Weissman
With that so that's Oslo, that's called the Oslo Accords. That's between the Israelis and the Palestinians. So remember Arabs in Egypt, different than Palestinians and it's all different Israelis with the Palestinians. They said we are going to start recognizing each other. The plo, the Palestine Liberation Organization, which was created by Yasser Arafat Before 1967, well it wasn't created by Arafat, but it was created in 1964. That led to, in 1993-1995. There's what's called the Oslo Accords, which was a recognition of the PLO as the representatives of the Palestinians and that Israel would start a process by which the Palestinians would have more autonomy. And that was called Areas A, B and C. Area A, I know vaguely.
- [25:54]
Matt Jones
What that stuff is. All right, so let's, let's, I'm sure many other things happen, but now let's, let's fast Forward forward to October 7th. There's an attack on Israel. How many people passed away?
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Noam Weissman
1200 people were murdered.
- [26:10]
Matt Jones
1200 people were murdered. There was a music concert was part of it. But there were other things, right? It was, yeah, lots of attacks. Like is it like 9, 11 time in lots of places?
- [26:24]
Noam Weissman
It was, it was the craziest thing. It was really crazy. And it was on the 7th of October, 1200 Israelis were killed. 250 Israelis were taken as hostage to Gaza. This was led by Hamas. And it was the worst day in Jewish history that any of us can remember and the worst day in Jewish history since the Holocaust. And the reason it was so bad was because this whole concept of Zionism which meant that the Jewish people should have self determination. That's what it means. The whole purpose of Zionism was either to end anti, Semitism, the hatred of Jewish people, or was to protect against anti. Semitism. On this day, on the 7th of October, that all changed because now they saw that the Jewish state, which is supposed to be the embodiment of Jewish self determination, that they couldn't even stop Hamas from Gaza. And it kind of for a lot of people maybe ended this dream of Zionism that the Jewish people could ever be like anyone else and, and exit history in some ways as just like anyone else, just like me and you, Matt, like that everyone has it.
- [27:35]
Matt Jones
What do you see if you were to have. Well, let me ask you, is there any reasonable interpretation of Hamas as anything besides a terrorist organization like the PLO had political goals in addition to doing things that were awful? I think it's fair to say they had political desires and Goals. Is Hamas anything in your mind but a terrorist organization?
- [27:59]
Noam Weissman
No, they are nothing but a terrorist organization. But you have to read their charter to actually see that. They quote the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which is this famous conspiracy theory that the Jews are trying to take over the world. They want to kill the Jews. They want to make sure that the Jews don't have the ability to govern themselves. They want to make sure that all of this region goes to Islam, to Hamas. They. I think 48. That is a moment in time in which you can and should see multiple narratives about how the Jewish state was created. And you have to see Palestinian narratives, and you have to see Israeli narratives. That is a must. 67. Same thing like you asked me. You got me 100%. You got to show Israeli narratives and Palestinian narratives. October 7, 2023 is a moment that is not about multiple narratives. It's a moment that showcased to the world that Hamas showcased to the world. They got on their GoPros and they showed the world. They literally wanted to show the world that we are here to kill all the Jews and Israelis, not just. Just the Jews in Israel.
- [29:05]
Matt Jones
So you. So you would say Hamas's goal is to. Why is to kill all Jews?
- [29:12]
Noam Weissman
I wouldn't say that. Hamas would say that.
- [29:14]
Matt Jones
Hamas would say that. Okay. Are there. I always hear, when talking about the future of Israel and Palestine, this talk of Hamas has to disarm, etc. Is there Palestinian leadership outside of Hamas with any authority or just. Do you believe Hamas runs Palestine? The Palestine area?
- [29:35]
Noam Weissman
It's so complicated because there's the west bank and then there's Gaza. They're not contiguous. Okay, so Hamas has. Has oversight over Gaza and the PA has oversight over the West Bank.
- [29:47]
Matt Jones
And what is the PA for people?
- [29:49]
Noam Weissman
The Palestinian Authority. Yeah, exactly. So they have authority there. Hamas has authority in Gaza. Hamas wrested authority from the PA in 2006, 2007, which shocked the United States of America. The United States of America couldn't believe that when Israel left Gaza that it would be governed by Hamas.
- [30:07]
Matt Jones
So Gaza to you, completely governed by Hamas?
- [30:12]
Noam Weissman
Yeah. And I think it.
- [30:13]
Matt Jones
Do you think the people of Gaza? Cuz it's easy sometimes to say the people of a country and think of the leadership. But I think like if somebody looks at America, I wouldn't want them to think that I agree with Donald Trump. So.
- [30:27]
Noam Weissman
Exactly.
- [30:28]
Matt Jones
Are there people in Gaza? Is there a resistance to Hamas? No, obviously there's good people. But is there a significant resistance in Gaza?
- [30:37]
Noam Weissman
Yeah, there is a significant resistance to Hamas. And I want to tell people some names that they should know about. One name is Ahmed Fouad Al Khatib, who is a great leader in the United States of America, calling for what's called realign for Palestine, coming with a moderate vision of what Palestine can and should look like. Another guy named Samir Senej Lawi, who is also a Palestinian leader, Palestinian, moderate. These are people that people should learn about and know about, because this idea of saying all Palestine is Hamas is wrong. It's actually awful to the Palestinians because it's not the case that all Palestine is Hamas. The difference between your analogy to you and Donald Trump and Palestinians and, and Hamas, though, is that you are able and I am able to cast a vote against Donald Trump. If we want to, we can. We could also not, but that's our choice. Hamas has not had elections, has not had elections since 2006, 2007. During. During that time period, they have not had elections. So over 50% of Gaza's under the age of 18, which means that none of them have ever voted in Hamas.
- [31:53]
Matt Jones
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- [32:43]
Noam Weissman
Yeah.
- [32:45]
Matt Jones
Is it fair to say in your eyes, that over those two years in defending itself and responding to the attacks, that. Do you believe Israel went too far in things. Let's start with that question. Just broadly, do you believe that Israel, as part of this, went too far in some of their actions that specifically led to difficulties for Palestinian people that they did not deserve?
- [33:11]
Noam Weissman
I am not a military expert, and I don't think in a military sort of way, militarily. I don't think this way. I think educationally, as you know from hanging out with me, way too much, Matt. That's how I think about things. I think about, well, what did Israel do and what were they trying to accomplish? Did they do a good job? Did they not do a good job?
- [33:30]
Matt Jones
I'm not just talking Militarily, though, I'm talking things like humanitarian aid. Like those things. I mean, bigger picture, you know, was it right for them to do the. The pager bombs and all? That's a different question. I'm just saying, like, when you're talking about the scenes that Americans have seen, like me, do you think that those were mistakes or bad acts by the Israeli government?
- [33:53]
Noam Weissman
I think that over. When you have over 60,000 Palestinian people who are killed, that. That is a tragedy. That is an absolute horrific tragedy. I think that that's number one. I also think that the question of what the Israeli army and government were trying to accomplish over the last two years needs to be questioned. Were they trying to eradicate and destroy Hamas or were they trying to release and get their hostages back? And would that need to happen through the force that they exerted or through strength? These are the questions that I asked myself. Were there Israeli soldiers that when they're in war, are they making decisions that I would not stand by? Absolutely. Are they also making decisions that I've never lived through and have no idea how to engage in something like this? That's also true. I have empathy in that regard.
- [34:46]
Matt Jones
Well, those are questions, though, known that. That like Americans have to deal with. With things that were done in Iraq and various things I'm talking about, though, there's still a basic. And again, I'm. Feel free to educate me. I only see what I see. Right. And I don't. I don't see everything. But from a basic standpoint, it looks to me like when you're cutting off a merit humanitarian food aid to end to individuals that are not engaged in war, but they're literally starving, I mean.
- [35:16]
Noam Weissman
Is that not unjustifiable were Israel to do something like that? That is horrible, of course.
- [35:22]
Matt Jones
So you're not convinced they did?
- [35:25]
Noam Weissman
Well, we know that they brought in humanitarian aid. Gaza Humanitarian Aid Foundation, I think it's called. I forgot the name of it. But they brought in aid, tons of aid. But the Hamas often stole the aid, which is sad and scary to see. But if it is the case, and when it was the case that Israel did not allow certain aid to come in at different points in time, that is not position or something that I would stand by. I would be like, that is, we have to make sure that every person ought to get aid. Now, here's. Here's the challenge, though, Matt. I want. I want everyone to hear this challenge. Challenge number one is Hamas would. Which is the craziest thing when I think about this, is that an Extreme Muslim organization, Extreme, not moderate Islam. Extreme Muslim organization has hoodwinked the extreme left in the United States of America.
- [36:22]
Matt Jones
Yes.
- [36:22]
Noam Weissman
To think that they're somehow on the same side of things. Okay, that to me is the thing that is crazy how they've hoodwinked them because what Hamas does is they.
- [36:31]
Matt Jones
So you separate, by the way, Hamas with the general idea of Palestinians in your mind.
- [36:37]
Noam Weissman
Absolutely.
- [36:38]
Matt Jones
Okay. And you think. I think a lot of Americans put that together. You think that should not happen?
- [36:45]
Noam Weissman
Oh my gosh, no. We have to figure out a way to make, to free Palestinians from Hamas. We have to make sure that Palestinians get the best education that they deserve, that they have self determination as well, that they could elect and bring in leaders who are moderate and want to see a future of Israel and a future of.
- [37:01]
Matt Jones
Let me use that sentence you said right there. You believe, and I agree with this, we need to free Palestinians from Hamas.
- [37:08]
Noam Weissman
Yes.
- [37:09]
Matt Jones
What would you say to. If there was a person on the Palestinian side who would hear that sentence and they go, do you also need to free Palestinians from Israel?
- [37:19]
Noam Weissman
Well, I believe that. That's a great question, Matt. I believe that in Gaza, Israel left in 2005, 2006, 2005. Really? 2004, 2005. And the fear of Israelis is that when they left galaxies Gaza, look at what happened eventually. Look, we left and look what happened.
- [37:39]
Matt Jones
But you can understand how for some people. So we were both just in South Africa and we were reading about the history of South Africa and there were Africans who at the time in the early 90s were saying, if we leave here, you know what's going to happen if we let you all be in charge. And that doesn't sound, that doesn't didn't sit right to me in reading it and it didn't feel right, especially when I was there. What is the difference between Africans in the late 80s and early 90s saying if we leave South Africa, you know what's going to happen? And what you just said.
- [38:21]
Noam Weissman
Well, a few differences. One is that the Afrikaans people moved to South Africa a few hundred years ago. The Jewish people are tied to the land of Israel for 3,000 years. They're the most native people.
- [38:31]
Matt Jones
So a historical. Back to the historical.
- [38:34]
Noam Weissman
So that's number one. Number two is the South African people is led by Nelson Mandela, wanted to be a part of South Africa. The Hamas wants to be apart from and doesn't want Israel to exist. That is a major distinction. They are not saying we want to. Hamas is not saying let's distinguish them from Palestinians. Hamas is not saying we want to be a part of you. They are saying we want to annihilate you.
- [38:59]
Matt Jones
So your problem is not with the idea of a free Palestine. Your problem is with a free Palestine led by Hamas.
- [39:06]
Noam Weissman
Yes. Led by people who scream khaybar, Khaybar. And say, referring to the time when Muhammad got rid of and killed so many Jews. When they, when. If that's what they're looking for, that is the type of thing that Israelis will not ever accept.
- [39:21]
Matt Jones
So if I was a Palestinian that was. Was anti Hamas, sympathetic to what you're saying and saying, I would say, okay, fair enough. But you all still believe you have historical claim to this land. How do I trust you that if you still believe you have historical claim to this land, as soon as I de arm myself, as soon as I say, okay, we're good, you're not going to at some point come and claim historical claim on this land again?
- [39:56]
Noam Weissman
Well, I think that we should see, that's exactly the point. This is. People view the world very often as a zero sum game. If I have everything and you get to have nothing, if the Palestinian people. And we should demand that this happens, that the Palestinian people revamp their education system to say, hey, we're not going to try to have from the river to the Sea and we're going to make sure that they are not trying to say things like in the Hamas charter, which says things that the day of judgment will not come. This is from the charter. I just pulled this up. Will not come until Muslims fight the Jews and kill them. When the Jew will hide behind stones and trees and the stones and trees will say, oh Muslim, O servant, oh Allah, there's a Jew behind me, come and kill him.
- [40:36]
Matt Jones
That's. That's in the Hamas charter.
- [40:38]
Noam Weissman
That's in Hamas charger charter. That is what it says. So that is very different. I think it's incredibly insulting now that you're trying to be to Mandela, to suggest that what they're trying to do in the truth and reconciliation process is at all similar to what Hamas is saying?
- [40:52]
Matt Jones
I don't. I don't believe that.
- [40:55]
Noam Weissman
Why? The reaction is very different.
- [40:57]
Matt Jones
I get it. But there is a sense of you all can't govern yourselves.
- [41:03]
Noam Weissman
There is a sense that the Palestinians have yet to make sure that they are bringing in a government to govern themselves.
- [41:11]
Matt Jones
What if they were? What if they democratically elected a Hamas type government?
- [41:17]
Noam Weissman
Then I would say that they are not democratically electing a democracy. A democracy is not simply a democracy. I mean, we have this in Aspen. A democracy is not merely the right of people to vote.
- [41:31]
Matt Jones
That's true.
- [41:32]
Noam Weissman
It's not what it is. It's also a free press. It's also not murdering people because they are gay like Hamas does. It's not, you know, it's not wanting to kill all Jews because they're Jews. Like, that's not what a democracy is.
- [41:48]
Matt Jones
And I hope you know I'm asking you these questions because I think a. I respect you to ask them. It's also kind of my style. If I had a Palestinian or Hamas person, I would be harder probably on them than I. Than I. Than I am. You.
- [42:01]
Noam Weissman
I think these are the questions you're asking is what people are wondering.
- [42:04]
Matt Jones
Yeah, so. So I want to go back to. I'm now going to use my. Because two years ago when we talked, I really didn't have an opinion one way or the other. I have probably found myself being a little more sympathetic to the Palestinian case two years later than I would have. But I don't know how much of that is propaganda. Right. Like, so I don't really know how much is whatever. So let me talk Israeli government. I get. When I think of Israeli government, I think of Netanyahu probably. Like a lot of the world thinks of American government. That makes Americans. They think of Trump. To me, Netanyahu just to me seems like a warmonger and also has people around him who seem even worse to me, who say some things that seem awful. Do the Israeli people as a whole, you think, agree with the net way Netanyahu and his government either say or do things? Or is it like Palestine, where you're saying there's this resistance to the Hamas head? I'm not equating Hamas and Netanyahu. I'm not equating them. But I am asking you, do you think that that's a fair question?
- [43:15]
Noam Weissman
Yeah, I think a few things. I think. I don't know if you watch. What's that show called about. What's it called? And you're not gonna admit if you do watch it, Matt, or not. I bet this summer I turned pretty.
- [43:27]
Matt Jones
I do not watch that. Although I hear there's two teams and I know they go at each other. Yeah, I haven't seen it. No.
- [43:32]
Noam Weissman
I don't view the story of Israel, Palestine as Team Jer or Team Conrad.
- [43:37]
Matt Jones
I don't know. The fact, you know, that reference surprises me and also worries me, but go ahead.
- [43:42]
Noam Weissman
Okay, fine. How about this? I don't view it as UNC Duke.
- [43:47]
Matt Jones
Okay.
- [43:47]
Noam Weissman
I don't view it as Kentucky, Louisville. That's not the way I. Kentucky, Alabama, if I got. If I got it wrong there, Red Sox, Yankees, I could keep on going. Lakers, Celtics, they're not teams. We have to stop treating them like they're team sports. And for you to say, hey, I'm a little bit more Palestine than Israel, I'm like, I didn't say that.
- [44:06]
Matt Jones
I said I was a little more sympathetic to the cause than I was before.
- [44:12]
Noam Weissman
You know why you're more sympathetic? Because you are a human being and you care. And you see the pain that Palestinians have gone through over the last number of years. The reason, though, that you see that, though, and this is kind of wild, is algorithmically, on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube, it is being served up to you in a way that you don't even realize.
- [44:34]
Matt Jones
And that's what Van Jones says. But then people on the. There's people on the left who would say, I was systematically, for years, through the mainstream media, told about more pro Israeli. And by the way, I don't know if either one of them are right or wrong. I really don't know. But there are people who would say, look, I've been seeing pro Israeli things for a long time.
- [44:55]
Noam Weissman
We shouldn't be Team Israel or Team Palestine. We should be team positive future for.
- [44:59]
Matt Jones
I agree with that.
- [45:01]
Noam Weissman
And so the question is, what do we all need to do to make a better future for Israelis and a better future for Palestinians? That's the question that we need to be asking about Bibi's government. I think that's also a very good question. You should see what Yair Lapid said. Yair Lapid, who is on the opposition to Bibi Netanyahu, when Donald Trump flew to Israel to go speak at the Knesset the day of October 13, which was the day that the hostages were released.
- [45:28]
Matt Jones
And you and I talked that day, and I do want to say something about that. You and I talked that day, and I think it was your birthday, right? Wasn't it your birthday?
- [45:35]
Noam Weissman
Yeah.
- [45:35]
Matt Jones
I turned 40 and I wrote you to say happy Birthday. And you gave me such an interesting answer. You said, this is such a happy day. But you weren't talking about your birthday. You were talking about the fact. And that said to me, this hits nome in a way that I don't know that Americans did even realize that it's your 40th birthday and the hostages being released was what your celebration was 100%.
- [46:01]
Noam Weissman
It was. It was. And that's an example. This is not Team Israel, Team Palestine. This is about team humanity. I don't know if there's a name that you, that you heard of that or that I don't know if any of the people that listen to your podcast have heard of, but her name is Rachel Goldberg Poland. Have you heard of her?
- [46:17]
Matt Jones
I have not, no.
- [46:18]
Noam Weissman
So Rachel Goldberg Poland has become. I would view it as like, almost like the mother of the Jewish people. Her son Hersh is an American, Hersh Goldberg. And something that I used to do, American Jew who moved to Israel. She taught me to do this thing where when Hirsch was. He was this young guy, super cool guy, super into music, and he was abducted, his arm was blown off, and ultimately he was killed in. Hirsch was a name that I just said all the time. And when I went to Starbucks and they asked me what like I always get ice, brown sugar, shaken, espresso, oat milk, chicken, espresso. And they asked me my name. And they can never pronounce. No, um, no one can. And I started saying Hirsch as my name because I wanted everyone to hear the name. Hirsch. Hirsch. Hirsch. Rachel, his mother is the most unbelievable hero that Jewish people have put aside. Bibi, Rachel's the hero. And what she said is that you don't have to be Jewish to care. You only have to be human. If you have a pulse, you have a part in this, in this story. And it's.
- [47:17]
Matt Jones
And I want to say the pictures, by the way, the pictures that day of the hostages being returned home, and I will also say of the Palestinian, and I'm sure some of those I know were, were criminals, but the palace, the reuniting of the families that day, both groups was very powerful for me. From afar, it really. I thought it was absolutely beautiful.
- [47:36]
Noam Weissman
Can I ask you a question, Matt? Now, I know that you're the interviewer here, but I'm really interested in your. Like, like, like, yes, I'm not Israeli, but I'm Jewish. Though Jews have very different perspectives on this, it's important to know that as Americans, the one thing that the vast majority of Jews believe in is that the Jewish people have a right to self determination, as do most Americans. But my question to you is because you just said something so interesting, you as a human being, just watching these scenes, you saw the scenes of Israelis returning to their homes as similar to the Palestinians returning to their homes. Is that what it felt like to you?
- [48:14]
Matt Jones
Yes, it did. I saw it as granted, I don't know the history of what made those Palestinians be. I know some of Them were in jail for whatever. But it was basically on a human level of parents seeing their children again. Yeah, that made me. Yeah, it was powerful to me. And I. It wasn't at that moment about who had the moral equivalent. It was just the human reuniting of people. But you also have to remember I come from a period of time where I sat with a person on death row as they were being executed. And I see people as more than their worst acts. And so, like, I come at it from maybe a different way.
- [48:56]
Noam Weissman
I hear that, and that's why I wanted to ask that question. There is a. There is a mass difference, though, between Israelis who are taken as hostage and Palestinian prisoners who were taken for either trying to commit murder or other sorts of.
- [49:14]
Matt Jones
Were they all. Are all the Palestinians?
- [49:16]
Noam Weissman
Not they all? No, no, not. Not they all. Not they all. Not they all. But I just want to. There's a major difference. Can I read to you something that I think is really powerful? There's a new book that just came out. It just came out. It's called. I have it here. It's called Hostage by Elishevi. It's the first time that anyone wrote an account, a memoir of their experience. He was 491 days in, under the tunnels and with Hamas people, and not just Hamas people. And this is the scary thing, but families are not Hamas. And he just. I just want to read to you the first page, because there's a powerful. It's powerful, he says. The five terrorists enter with weapons drawn. We are in our pajamas. They come with uniforms. They found us. Me, my wife, Leanne, our beautiful daughters, Noya and Yahel, and our dog. We're in our safe room. No intruders like these have we seen. The dog barks in distress. She doesn't like strangers. The sound draws a terrorist fire. And the sound of their gunshots ricochets off the walls. It's Stephening. Leanne and I jump into the. The girls, onto the girls to shield them, checking they're not hurt, and shouting at the terrorists to stop, begging them, don't be afraid. They reply in Arabic and demand we hand over our cell phones. I look into my daughter's eyes. Noya is 16 years old. Yehel is just 13. I tried to reassure them, telling them everything will be okay. They don't scream. They don't cry. They don't even speak. They are frozen in terror. I will never forget that look of terrorize that moment. Noya, Yael and Leon were killed by Hamas coming into their homes. And this is the homes of what's called a kibbutz, which is a left wing peace activist home. That's what they were. That's what they went to. And then they made Eli Shahrabi a hostage for 491 days until he was released in a deal. Until he was released.
- [50:59]
Matt Jones
Yeah, that's. I mean, that's very powerful stuff. That's an awful. And I guess. Go ahead.
- [51:07]
Noam Weissman
There's the imagery of that, of being in Anakibbuts, which is a. Which is a commune, and being not in the areas that Israel won in 1967, not at all being in the 1948 war in that land. And the imagery of your children being taken from you and killed and that you were being taken as a hostage is imagery that I think that's as. It's not. You don't have to be Israeli and you don't have to be Jewish. You have to be human to care about that. And it's also true that the suffering of the Palestinians has been horrendous over the last two years. And yes, in some instances beyond that. What we have to then figure out how to do, Matt, this is what our fellowship is all about, is to say, okay, are we going to get mired in the now I'm unpacking Israeli history guy. I believe that people have to learn the history guy.
- [51:59]
Matt Jones
You can't. Your whole podcast is history of the.
- [52:03]
Noam Weissman
History, but the purpose of the history is how do you think about a better future?
- [52:07]
Matt Jones
So let's talk about that because we've got like 10 minutes and I do want to. I do want to get to that.
- [52:12]
Noam Weissman
Yeah.
- [52:13]
Matt Jones
So you. I. That thing you just read would make it very hard for many people to move past. Right. And I'm sure there's probably stories from people in Gaza of some atrocity that occurred somewhere where they would feel the same way. So now, so now going forward, we had this deal or some type of deal 10 days ago. Do you feel confident about it? I mean, obviously it was good that the hostages got released, but do you feel confident that whatever happened there can work going forward?
- [52:53]
Noam Weissman
I think what I feel confident about is that the Arab countries around the world, Arab countries around the world are saying that Hamas needs to disarm, that they're all in agreement that Western countries around the world are saying Hamas needs to disarm.
- [53:08]
Matt Jones
So there's nobody still arguing they should be armed. That, you know.
- [53:11]
Noam Weissman
Nobody. Nobody. That's not. That's what I'm trying to say. The multiple narrative thing. I deeply believe in about the history, about how we see current moments and the like. There's. I don't believe that there's multiple narratives about Hamas. That's not. I don't think that that's the case. But Donald Trump in his 20 point plan has one thing in there. I don't even know if he read the whole plan. He's Donald Trump. But let's say he did. I just don't know. But in his plan, he says this. Let me pull it up. One second. Okay, here it is. He says an interfaith dialogue process will be established based on the values of tolerance and peaceful coexistence to try and change mindsets and narratives of Palestinians and Israelis by emphasizing the benefits that can be derived from peace.
- [53:59]
Matt Jones
That sounds like something they would have in our fellowship, Aspen Institute thing, Right?
- [54:03]
Noam Weissman
Exactly right. And when I look at the 20 point peace plan, that to me is everything.
- [54:09]
Matt Jones
Yeah.
- [54:10]
Noam Weissman
Put everything else aside. What Israelis and Palestinians need to do is their futures are tethered to each other. They are tied. There are around 7 to 8 million Jewish people living in the region of the land of Israel, and there are around 7 to 8 million Palestinians living there. That is the case. So what are you all going to do to figure out this future together? What future do you want 20 years from now? And what are we as Americans going to do to either make it worse for everyone there or better for everyone there? What are we going to demand?
- [54:42]
Matt Jones
I love. I love what you just said. And I. So, so help me feel confident. All right, so if I.
- [54:49]
Noam Weissman
You help me feel confident.
- [54:50]
Matt Jones
If I thought that Noam was going to be the person in charge of this for the Jewish people in the Jewish state, then I would feel confident about one side. But I don't really feel confident when I see the Israeli leadership and you and others have convinced me, I don't feel confident about Hamas being involved. Who are the people? And don't, I wouldn't say, just get like, just names of nice people, but who are the people that have an ability as part of the Palestinians, Israel and even America? Like, I don't believe Donald Trump read that, but someone in his administration is doing this work. So who is it that we feel like these are the keys to future peace?
- [55:39]
Noam Weissman
I think that the. You said not names. Don't say.
- [55:42]
Matt Jones
No, no, say names. But like, literally, who are they? Like, like, who in America do you think is the leader in this? Who is the person that is helping write those 20 points?
- [55:53]
Noam Weissman
I don't know who's behind it, but I know that names like Steve Witkoff.
- [55:57]
Matt Jones
So that's one you hear a lot. You think he and Jared Kushner are a big part of Jared Kushner.
- [56:02]
Noam Weissman
Thank you.
- [56:02]
Matt Jones
Okay, so you think that you actually would give them credit for their motives in this or their actions?
- [56:08]
Noam Weissman
Yeah.
- [56:09]
Matt Jones
You would?
- [56:09]
Noam Weissman
I would. And. And I.
- [56:11]
Matt Jones
You did something with Jared Kushner, Right.
- [56:12]
Noam Weissman
Didn't you do Josh Kushner, his brother? I played him in basketball 20 years ago. He hit a buzzer beater against me. He beat me in a championship game. Whatever. Let's not. Let's not go there. But, but, but, but. And I'm. And I'm. I won't go into my politics, but I'm not a Republican. I'll leave it at that. And so Jared Kushner, you gotta give credit where credit is due. Jared Kushner is somebody who cares about making peace. Steve Witkoff is someone who cares about this. Steve Wykoff lost his son at a point in time, and that leads to a certain amount of empathy that you could have for other people. And thank God, I've never experienced anything like that. I believe that the leaders of the United Arab Emirates matter a lot in this, and the Saudis matter a lot. The Saudi leadership cannot be. Is it overstated or understated? I never know which one understated, but it's one of. It cannot be understated. Okay, thank you. Is it the Saudi leadership? They are. They are tastemakers. And in the Arab world. And what they say will ultimately matter a lot. Just like when Egypt did that. And we need to not just, you know, to not just worship heroes, but we have to create heroes. And so with Saudis, they have to create heroes on the ground. With Palestinians, they have to make it worth it for the Palestinian leadership to say, we are probably financial.
- [57:34]
Matt Jones
Right? I mean, that's probably financial.
- [57:36]
Noam Weissman
It's financial, but it's also. Listen, in the Arab world, Matt, it's not just about finances or anything like that. And it's for. Arab world cares a lot about honor.
- [57:47]
Matt Jones
Yes, they do. Yeah.
- [57:49]
Noam Weissman
Right. And so there has to be. They have to. We learn this loan, there has to.
- [57:53]
Matt Jones
Be honor and peace. There has to be honor and peace.
- [57:56]
Noam Weissman
No, but there's a line that we learned, I think, together, and maybe we learned it together, maybe not that be careful of the humiliated person. Basically, this concept of, like, someone who's humiliated will do things that are horrendous and horrific. We have to be careful to know that hurt people. Hurt people. So we have to continue to build people up. We have to not knock them down. I agree with that fully. And we have to leverage and build up the Saudi world, the UAE world, to celebrate the fact that Israel has made peace with the uae, has made peace with Bahrain, has made peace with Egypt, has made peace with Jordan, now has a decent relationship with Syria, now that Hezbollah has essentially been disarmed and destroyed. Now hopefully we'll have a peace with Lebanon. It's with the Palestinians that the world needs to build up educationally, make it worth it for them. And I want to 50 years from now tell a totally different history of unpacking Israeli history that has self determination of Palestinians and self determination of Israelis.
- [58:55]
Matt Jones
One last question.
- [58:57]
Noam Weissman
Yes, sir.
- [58:57]
Matt Jones
And this is hard for me as someone who does not like Donald Trump. Is it fair to say that the uniqueness of the fact that, that he has an economic, often self interested relationship with Saudi Arabia, the UAE and has this amazing desire to be seen as some sort of world peace figure, which I'm glad he has that desire, but I think he does that maybe he was the only one who had the ability to tell, not Netanyahu, slow down to get the Saudis in the UAE because of his business relationship to listen. Is it maybe the case that as odd as it is, he's the only one that could have done it.
- [59:39]
Noam Weissman
Is it maybe the case that this is hard for both you and me to admit and acknowledge? Maybe.
- [59:46]
Matt Jones
But is it also true, I think.
- [59:49]
Noam Weissman
That Donald Trump has in this instance has proven to be and throughout his career in different ways a deal maker. And instead of focusing on, on values which are going to not align, they tried to focus on interests and they've, they figured out a way to do that in this instance. Let's see.
- [60:08]
Matt Jones
So the answer is probably yes. As much you don't want to say it. I don't probably want to say it. But is the answer he probably.
- [60:15]
Noam Weissman
They did a damn good job. They did a damn good job here and I'm so, so happy. And I think that one of the mistakes that we all make in life is that we're not willing to root for the person that we oppose. Let's root for someone who does a good job of anything. I don't care what it is.
- [60:28]
Matt Jones
There you go. Well, Noam, thank you very much. Unpacking Israeli history. Give people if they wanted to try the podcast, try one episode that you think would be a good intro to it. What would it be so hard Listen to?
- [60:40]
Noam Weissman
Listen. This is so me. Matt, listen to the six parter on Palestinian statehood six parter. Yeah, that's right.
- [60:48]
Matt Jones
I'll give you six parts. I don't know if everybody else would, but I will do it. I'll do it.
- [60:53]
Noam Weissman
Listen to the first episode about Palestinian statehood and then if you're hooked, continue listening.
- [60:57]
Matt Jones
Listen, man, thank you very much for doing this. Like I said, I met you two years ago and along with other folks in the group, but you as well, we've become good friends and I value your opinion and thank you very much for taking the time.
- [61:14]
Noam Weissman
Matt, you are a talented dude. I'm leaving it at that.
- [61:17]
Matt Jones
Thank you.
- [61:19]
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