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- [00:00]
Matt Jones
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- [02:43]
Show Announcer
Now, here's Matt Jones.
- [02:46]
Matt Jones
Welcome, everybody, to Interrupted by Matt Jones. This is episode. What are we at, Billy? 29, 27, 29, whatever. We're getting close and I am happy to be joined by. You know, I get a lot of people who say to me, Matt, I love these conversations. But then you usually bring on people that you agree with. And so I was thinking to myself, all right, who's somebody that I agree with sometimes, but not always and who I always find interesting? And Kat Rosenfield is joining us. She is the culture writer for the Free Press and I always think takes very balanced, interesting looks at various issues. Kat, thank you very much. We've never met, but we followed each other for a long time. Appreciate you joining us.
- [03:32]
Kat Rosenfield
Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.
- [03:34]
Matt Jones
I have to say, it's interesting. I have sort of a policy that if somebody that I don't know writes something, if I disagree with them, I just never really respond. But I actually do respond with yours because I generally think you always have a really balanced perspective. And it feels like you get a lot of people who argue slash disagree with you on your writings but aren't mean necessarily, and that you actually will debate online. Am I right about that?
- [04:06]
Kat Rosenfield
Yeah, I do my best.
- [04:09]
Matt Jones
Well, that feels like I've seen you do it some. You, you write for the Free Press. So what does it mean to be a culture writer for the Free Press?
- [04:17]
Kat Rosenfield
So culture is, you know, culture is the water that we all swim in. It is something that we have our own place in, kind of contributing to and helping to shape. Unlike politics, which most of us, especially at the national level, don't have any influence over, we are all making and consuming culture at the same time. So culture is like what's happening between us socially. It's how do we treat each other? Who are we to each other? It's also art. What kind of art are we making? What are we watching? What are we reading? But yeah, so, so it's this sort of nebulous, how do we connect with each other as people? And I write about that. You might also. Some people call me a social critic. I like Culture Writer better because I think it sounds fancier, but I.
- [05:03]
Matt Jones
Your background is very fancy there on your screen, so I could see you want to be sort of a higher class.
- [05:09]
Kat Rosenfield
Yeah, yeah. The wallpaper that I bought from Etsy to put on one room in my house so that I could do interviews without having to leave the house or put pants. Definitely very posh.
- [05:21]
Matt Jones
Yes, the posh pantless background. I like that. Now, when you started, how long have you been at the Free Press?
- [05:29]
Kat Rosenfield
Oh, maybe about 18 months, something like that.
- [05:31]
Matt Jones
Okay, so, yeah, so this was happening when you started. It is interesting because I think when Free the Free Press started, it had one sort of audience slash, at least to me as a reader sort of view, where you would say, this is what that is. And then over the last probably 18 months, it seems to have kind of flipped where I think people make generalizations about it. Since Bari Weiss went to cbs, have you noticed that your audience has changed as you've been writing or how people look at what you. What you write, how it's being consumed?
- [06:08]
Kat Rosenfield
That's an interesting question. So I have noticed definitely within the past year or so that I catch a lot more strays online from people who have what I would refer to generously as Barry Weiss derangement syndrome. You know, Barry Weiss isn't taking their calls, and I am the next best thing. You know, I'm also a small Jewish brunette, and so, you know, and I'm affiliated with the Free Press, so why not yell at me? But in terms of the readership, it's hard to say. You know, I practice the exquisite art of not reading the comments because that's a good way to drive yourself crazy. And so what my.
- [06:48]
Matt Jones
Do you really do that, though? Like. Like, I try to do that, and I'm not able to. Are you able to not read the comments?
- [06:56]
Kat Rosenfield
For the most part, yeah. I like to. I stay busy doing other things.
- [06:59]
Matt Jones
Okay. All right. I need to figure out why, but go ahead.
- [07:04]
Kat Rosenfield
So what was I saying? Oh, right. My readership, you know, my. My sense is that there are people who, you know, knew my work when I was a columnist at Unherd, which is a British magazine. I was there for qu. A number of years and then moved over to the Free Press, and I'm doing the same thing there that I did at Unherd and that I was doing prior to that, which is just trying to make sense of what I'm seeing in the world, what it means, what's happening in the culture. And I would say the Free Press has more of an American audience than the British magazine that I was previously writing for. But apart from that, you know, I think that the people who are coming over as readers tend to be in search of something that fills in some of the blanks that are being left by the kind of contemporary, like, legacy media landscape. People just want to get all sides of an issue. And the Free Press, you know, whatever else you think about it, that is something that it does.
- [08:05]
Matt Jones
Do you. Okay, so Barry is now gone to cbs. And I always thought for years is the Free Press is kind of, like you said, a good way to hear different perspectives. And there's been this criticism of her since she's gone to cbs and all that's come with it. Have you found like a MAGA audience coming in, joining you more since then, or do you think it's kind of still the same?
- [08:32]
Kat Rosenfield
I haven't seen that.
- [08:34]
Matt Jones
So you yourself. I want to give my listeners who might not be familiar with you an example of. Of a story you wrote recently. That it was what led me to write you, which was you were writing about what happened in Minnesota, the Renee Good. And it was interesting the way you wrote about sort of how we got to that situation and all the various ways, which is what I really liked about it. You weren't saying, this is right, this is wrong. You were sort of talking about all the forces that led to that moment. Can you give people an example kind of of what you were talking about?
- [09:05]
Kat Rosenfield
Sure. I think that the big thing about Minnesota, what happened to Minnesota, is I was so struck by not the actual shooting, which is, of course, horrible, but by what preceded it. And you see these videos of these two women interacting with ICE agents, and it's just very painfully clear that they misapprehended what the stakes of that situation were, what kind of a situation they were actually in. And obviously the results were very tragic. And I really wanted to understand how did it come to this? How did this happen? Because that is a culture question. You know, you can leave aside the politics, you can leave aside what you think should or shouldn't be happening with immigration, and just see, okay, well, this is what is happening. And this, this is what did happen. And if we can understand the contours of it, maybe we can prevent it from happening again. And my sense of this shooting is that it arose from this sort of miasma in which everybody who was in a position to influence this series of events failed to take it as seriously as they should, was treating it like some kind of game or some kind of role playing exercise or performance. That is true of the ICE agents. It's true of the President, the Department of Homeland Security. It's true of local officials who encouraged people to, to engage with ICE in a way that led them to misapprehend what was going to happen, what the stakes were. I think the least culpability rests with Renee Goode and her wife. And that's what's really so tragic about this, is that they were the least responsible for all of this and they paid the ultimate price.
- [11:01]
Matt Jones
I think that's a really fascinating view and I actually, I think I sort of agree with it, kind of. If we could, let's go through some of those. I mean, to me at the start is this notion of how we got here is the way politicians and the media have treated immigration as an issue to begin with, this notion of an invasion of, of these immigrants. And then for the other, for the folks in Minnesota, this notion of an invasion by ICE to our state and that the two of them, both sides sort of treating it with this invasion language almost sets up a conflict that is inevitable. Is that kind of the way you look at it?
- [11:43]
Kat Rosenfield
To a certain extent. So my take on this is irrespective, again of what you think of immigration. We voted for the guy who wanted to do mass deportations. I mean, I didn't personally vote for him, but we as a country voted for him. He's the president now. And so we're doing mass deportations. That's going to be the, you know, how it, how it's going for the next few years. And I think that the way the administration has chosen to go about this, the way they've chosen to message it, the way they've chosen to execute these ICE raids is making everything worse. I think it projects incredible lack of seriousness the way that they, they're presenting the information about who is being deported. It's on this website called Worst of the Worst.
- [12:26]
Matt Jones
Okay, you said that, you said, let me, I'm going to read from your Twitter. You said that. So they show the people and it's called Worst of the Worst. And they almost make it look like a cartoon, right?
- [12:36]
Kat Rosenfield
Yeah, it's a cartoonish presentation, basically because of the way that DHS and ICE are behaving and communicating now. I'm not saying it's everybody. I'm just saying, you know, the leadership and a certain number of people who are unfortunately being caught on video all the time acting this way are contributing to the notion that ICE are basically like cartoon Villains, they're acting. You know, in many cases, the agents are behaving like they are cosplaying Rambo meets the Bully from a 1980s teen comedy, you know, and you have. Yes, this. That presents the information on who's being deported, which is important information that people should be receiving. Presenting it in this incredibly unserious, sensationalistic way. You know, the graphics on this thing look like they were designed by the person who was doing the on screen graphics for Maury Povich's you are not the father segments in the 90s or the Apprentice, Right.
- [13:30]
Matt Jones
Where he comes from. I mean, it is sort of like, I feel like a lot of times these videos look like reality show. There look like a way to try to grab ratings when this is supposed to be a very serious thing.
- [13:41]
Kat Rosenfield
Yeah. And so there is this lack of gravitas. I mean, this is on the part of the officials, you know, the federal government. They're not presenting this in a way that makes it feel serious. And because of that, everybody is sort of following their lead. You have local officials who are responding by calling ICE the Gestapo. I think Tim Waltz is the one who said that. You have Them treating them as though they're not legitimate law enforcement, talking about them as though they're not legitimate law enforcement. You have, you know, the local governance in Minneapolis basically abdicating any responsibility for what ICE is doing in the city and any interactions that ICE might be having with Minneapolis residents.
- [14:28]
Matt Jones
I think that's important. The local police are not getting involved in those interactions, is that right?
- [14:32]
Kat Rosenfield
Because they're. They're not allowed to. They were told they are not allowed to be present when ICE is doing something they are specifically not allowed to do, to do crowd control when there is like a protest present. Which means that you have somebody like Renee Goode able to drive right into the middle of an ICE operation, interpose herself into a law enforcement operation where men with guns are trying to apprehend a suspect. You know, whether you think it's good that they're there or not, that is what they're trying to do. And she completely misunderstood what was going to happen if she went in, antagonized these officers, got in their way, way, made them. I mean, made them feel like they wanted to detain her, and then tried to flee. You know, there. There was no margin for error for her there, and she didn't know that. And that is what is so incredibly tragic. And I do think that local governance in Minnesota, people like Jacob Frey and Tim Walls, bear an enormous amount of responsibility for creating a situation in which somebody got killed.
- [15:42]
Matt Jones
But you're also not saying, though, he should have shot her. I mean, you could say all those things and still say it was an overreaction by him.
- [15:51]
Kat Rosenfield
I. I mean, I do not think that she should have been killed. I think it's incredibly tragic and horrible that she was killed. I don't want to try to litigate the shooting itself. I mean, that's. I'm a culture writer. I'm a novelist. I have an art degree. You don't want me weighing in on what?
- [16:08]
Matt Jones
Well, I don't mean the legal thing. I actually think I have a legal background. I actually think he probably would be hard to char with a murder for a variety of reasons that aren't interesting. But I don't think. I think anyone, whether it's you or me or anyone listening, can have the sort of internal explanation of, okay, maybe he shouldn't be criminally charged, but he didn't have to kill her. Like, I mean, I feel like we're all qualified to make that judgment. Does that make sense?
- [16:37]
Kat Rosenfield
Sure. I mean, I don't know. I think this is difficult. I think it's difficult to try to litigate. And, you know, what we have right now is something that I think is the most fruitless and unproductive exercise, which is people re watching this video over and over as though they're going to, you know, figure out who was at fault. This is something that happened in a split second, and I, you know, I just don't really feel qualified to weigh in. And I think that you're correct that there is no way that the officer whose name is eluding me right now. Is it Jonathan Ross? I think so. I think it's very, very unlikely he will be charged. I think it's even less likely that he would be convicted of anything. I fully expect that he will skate on this because we give law enforcement enormous latitude to do things like this if they can plausibly argue that they thought their lives were in danger at the time. And you can say, well, he shouldn't have thought that. And you can say, well, she shouldn't have done this. Or, I mean, there's a lot of should, but then there is also what happened, and we can't go back. So I would prefer to try to understand that aspect of things.
- [17:48]
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- [19:50]
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- [21:00]
Matt Jones
Completely agree with 90% of what you said there. I do think the other reason he's not going to be charged is because it's not even being investigated. I mean, they're intent they're intentionally not wanting to to ask these questions that we've talked about. You wrote in your article about the ice, the ICE agents, they have an unfortunate tendency to look and act like high school bullies, cosplaying as authority figures, men who could meet neither the physical nor intellectual requirements to become real soldiers or real cops, living out their fantasies of wearing a mask, waving a gun, and then yelling at people to do what they say. I do think a lot of these videos we see look like that. Why do you think that happens? Why do you think we have this situation where it's almost like a cartoon version of authority?
- [21:52]
Kat Rosenfield
Well, I mean, you're always going to have the camera pointed at the person who's acting in a way that you want to point a camera at. That is, you know, I mean, that, that is the world we live in now. And it's true of what's happening on the ground with ice. It's also true of, you know, accounts that surface outrage bait, like, you know, Libs of TikTok, for instance. People, you know, people look at the thing that is doing something attention, attention grabbing, and there's really no way around that. Why else is it happening? You know, obviously you have people joining ICE for the same reasons that people often join law enforcement. And I don't think this is true of all cops. It's just true of enough of them to make for unfortunate stereotypes. When people, you know, the people sometimes act as though they're doing everything in their power to fulfill. You have people who like bossing people around, who like having a gun, who like being in charge. And those are generally the officers who get caught on camera acting like authoritarian bullies.
- [22:53]
Matt Jones
Do you. How much of this do you blame? Because I blame a lot of it. You, you, I think correctly point out the administration and waltz and is it Frey or Fry? How do you say the mayor of Minneapolis? Is it.
- [23:04]
Kat Rosenfield
You know, I don't, I'm probably mispronouncing it. I say Fry, but I actually don't know.
- [23:07]
Matt Jones
So he's. He looks. He looks like an actor, and I can't think of which one. I do think they deserve responsibility without question. But doesn't the media deserve a lot of responsibility? And by media, I don't mean, like the general. When we say the legacy media, I actually mean the people that go online or on TV and want to make a game of outrage. The Jesse Waters, the liberal versions of that. The people who make money from making their people mad and outraged and dehumanizing the other side. I blame them as much as I blame any money in a governmental office. Do you?
- [23:54]
Kat Rosenfield
Yeah, I do. Insofar as I think that that is a major contributing factor to persuading ordinary people to do things that are dangerous to them without realizing it. You know, the big thing about what happened to Renee Goode is somebody persuaded her that she should go out and do what she did. Somebody persuaded her that she should interpose herself into a situation where a law enforcement officer with a gun was trying to apprehend somebody, and she should make herself an obstacle to that. You know, she should put herself in the way and did not tell her that she was risking her life by doing that. That is a horrible thing to do, to mislead somebody that way. And I think it is unfortunately, likely, because nobody has kind of toned it down on either side, that we're going to see this happen again.
- [24:43]
Matt Jones
But what. Okay, so what would someone like Renee Good, in the situation that we've talked about, that where ICE is there, local law enforcement is not doing crowd control, and you're in Minnesota, and it genuinely bothers you to see your neighbors taken away, et cetera. What should they do?
- [25:05]
Kat Rosenfield
Well, I mean, should they just sit.
- [25:07]
Matt Jones
Home and say, oh, well, I mean, like, should they do something?
- [25:11]
Kat Rosenfield
Well, they should act within the parameters of what is legally permitted, which in the US Is quite a lot. You know, you can film law enforcement, you can heckle law enforcement. You can, you know, you have. You have free speech.
- [25:26]
Matt Jones
But we're seeing those people get arrested, too, people who heckle in film. I mean, we're seeing them get in some cases taken, too.
- [25:34]
Kat Rosenfield
We're seeing, I mean, I think that ICE is extremely hair trigger on this. And you can. You can argue both sides of this. You can say, well, yeah, of course they are. You know, every time they leave their homes, they're harassed. They are, you know, sometimes physically assaulted or worse. This is the problem is everything is really at a fever pitch right now. And you have this very Explosive situation where, yeah, if you get too close to an ICE agent at this point and you're yelling at him and then you accidentally brush your sleeve against him, you're probably going to get tackled, I don't think.
- [26:13]
Matt Jones
But he deserves blame for that, too. I mean, like, again, again.
- [26:17]
Kat Rosenfield
Hey, Matt, I'm not saying what should happen. I'm saying this is what is happening. We have to understand accurately the contours of this situation and communicate accurately to people what they are risking when they engage with these people. I don't think they should behaving this way. I mean, personally, I would prefer they're not there at all, but they are. We are doing this as a. As a country, as a government. It's happening. And so I think that given that, Given that there is no altering that fact for right now, the most important thing is for people to understand if you are in a confrontation with ICE and you give them a reason to tackle you and they don't need very much of one, then they're going to tackle you.
- [26:58]
Matt Jones
Yeah, I mean, I don't think you're wrong. But then that gets to the, I guess, idea of what you do in that scenario. And I. I don't. I don't want it to sound like I have strong views because I wonder about that myself. Like, I really wonder, if I lived in Minnesota, what would I do? I would not heckle officers. That's not my personality. But I also would feel like I'm being somehow negligent by doing nothing. So I'm not sure what I would do in that scenario. Clayton and Croom was founded on a simple idea. All leather goods should last a lifetime. They make everything from bags, belts, wallets, and much more. And the best part, they're doing it right here in Kentucky. You can check them out at claytonandcrum.com c r u m e.com or visit one of their retail stores in Louisville, Charleston. And now open in Nashville. Clayton and Croom. Quality goods built to last. Let me switch gears for a second to you, because you're you. You're a culture rider. And I. How old are you, if you don't mind me asking? I'm 47. You're what? What? How. How old are you?
- [28:11]
Kat Rosenfield
I'm 43.
- [28:12]
Matt Jones
Okay. So when I was young, and I guess this is probably true, when you were. When I was in college, it was not cool to talk about politics. Like, the only people that cared about politics were, like the dorkiest of the dorky people. And the only time I can remember Ever discussing politics once in my life was when the Monica Lewinsky, Kenneth Starr report came out, like no one cared. It feels like to me, in the last, really in the Trump era, politics has become a part of culture in a way that I don't remember it being during my formative years of culture. Do you a, agree with that sentiment? And is the answer simply Trump is just a kind of this star power thing that has led this to happen?
- [28:57]
Kat Rosenfield
I think a lot of different things are contributing to that. I don't think you're wrong. For me, I do remember there was a lot of protesting of, for instance, the Iraq war on my college campus.
- [29:07]
Matt Jones
Yeah. So you would have been. I was out by then, but that makes sense.
- [29:10]
Kat Rosenfield
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, George W. Bush seemed like a catastrophe at the time, you know, to me and the people in my cohort. I, you know, since mellowed on that question somewhat, just having seen what came after. But what's different now is we are all online all the time. Social media is a thing in a way that it wasn't back in 2003. And I think that we have entered this era where people basically substitute political engagement for having a personality, and they also treat it like it's a religion and a spectator sport in which you can participate yourself. So what, what we've got now is what I call fandom politics. And the really unfortunate thing about this is that we now live in an era where the. The main thing is not just like, what kind of world do you envision, what kind of a world do you want to build? What kind of a society do you want to live in? And who are the politicians that you support because you think they support or share your vision for what the future and the country should be? It's really this performative kind of rooting against somebody who you've cast as the villain in the national morality play. And an enormous amount of what's happening, you know, rhetorically online in the media, basically anywhere you go is about that. It's this sort of negative polarization. It's defining ourselves and other people based on what we perceive them to be against or who we perceive to be against against them. It's not healthy.
- [30:52]
Matt Jones
It's wrestling. I mean, I, I come from. I, I have, you know, I own a minor league wrestling company, and I am not the first person who's compared Trump era politics to wrestling, but I see it on every level. I mean, not just good guy, bad guy, but what you just said about a big part of wrestling is I don't dislike you because you do this. I dislike you because it's my job to dislike you. So whatever it is you do, I dislike simply because you' doing it. And for my guy, same thing. It's bad when you use a pipe and hit the other guy, but it's good when my guy does it because I'm the good guy. They are the bad guy. And I feel like that has infected 80% of our population to where people's actions are irrelevant to whether it's good or bad. The goal is just your guy winning. Does that do you agree with?
- [31:48]
Kat Rosenfield
I do, yeah.
- [31:49]
Matt Jones
And that's terrible, because then you can just get away with anything you want to do. I wonder if you think this will continue after Trump. I sort of have this belief it will end with him. Do you disagree or agree?
- [32:06]
Kat Rosenfield
I don't know. I am very curious to see what comes after Donald Trump on the political right, because I think he is irreplaceable.
- [32:16]
Matt Jones
Yeah, I do, too.
- [32:17]
Kat Rosenfield
For better or for worse, I do, too. And without him in office, I don't know who will shape the politics on that side. Moving forward, I think any number of things could happen. I do see a very cynical contingent starting to grow on the right, especially amongst younger people. That makes me a little nervous because the thing about Donald Trump is he is ultimately a showman. He is. He's not a politician. He was not a born politician. I don't think he is even all that interested in politics. He just loves the performance. And, you know, the thing about that is, even though he is doing a lot of things that I consider, you know, damaging or ridiculous or foolhardy or whatever you might, you know, however you want to classify them. There is also this sense of showmanship to all of it. You know, Donald Trump is sometimes very funny and very fun to watch. And without that element, the sense of, like, we are here to have fun and put on a show that is kind of endemic to his presidency. If you just get, like, the. The policies and the political attitudes, but not the showmanship, I think that that's a very, very dark timeline.
- [33:47]
Matt Jones
And that's why I don't think they win after him is because they have the. Because I like you say they're not fun, you know, the other people, you start to see the stuff in a much more hateful way, and I think it becomes a lot clearer. You know, I knew J.D. vance way before all this. I knew him because he grew up well. His family grew up close to where I grew up. I spent a lot of time with him over the years and I've watched him completely change into like a different person. Do you think he can follow any of this in the future? Can he take that torch?
- [34:25]
Kat Rosenfield
Oh, there's never going to be a cult of personality around him the way there is around Donald Trump or anybody else for that matter. I really do think Trump is. We will never see his like again, again. As for, you know, I mean, J.D. vance, I would be curious to see what he, what is he like when he is not kind of in that shadow of Donald Trump. And that's, you know, I'm approaching this from the perspective of literally, I just kind of want to see what happens. I'm watching it like a soap opera. Yeah. You know, it's at this point, I mean, it's my luxury as a culture writer to not actually be a particular, really political person. I don't really understand a lot about, you know, for instance, geopolitics, economics, you know, all of that stuff. And so I don't have to weigh in. I can just watch.
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- [38:23]
Matt Jones
Your most recent article was about a former young adult writer. What was his name? I'm sorry?
- [38:32]
Kat Rosenfield
Jay Asher.
- [38:33]
Matt Jones
Jay Ashley wrote the thing that became a Netflix series, 1313 Reasons why. Yeah, and he was. I did not know. I remember seeing that Netflix series, but that's not really my time frame of watching. But he sort of got swept up in various the MeToo allegations movement. Explain for people who maybe haven't read that a little bit about what you found and what it says in general. You think about the whole cancel culture thing that we certainly went through for a while and it still occasionally lingers now.
- [39:07]
Kat Rosenfield
Sure. So I mean, this story is an incredible example of the power of weaponized gossip Green Group Think Witch Hunting Dynamics. Jay Asher was accused anonymously by persons unknown or maybe just one person posting repeatedly in the comments of a blog post on schoollibraryjournal.com of being a quote, predator. No further details were given. No evidence surfaced of him having done anything predatory of him, ever having harassed or harmed anyone, no woman ever came forward to say that he had harmed her. And yet, as a result of these accusations, because it was at the peak of this moment when vague gossip was being treated as though it carried an enormous amount of weight, this institution that he was a member of, the Society of Children's Book Writers and Editors, announced that he had been found guilty of violating their harassment policy and. And expelled. And this, not to put too fine a point on it, completely destroyed his life. He has not. He lost his agent. He has not published a book in eight years. He has not worked in eight years. He can't get a job because every time somebody Googles him, they see headlines that say, jay Asher expelled from SCBWI for sexual harassment. And you probably wouldn't want to hire that guy either. And the really gross miscarriage of justice here is that the organization that said it had investigated him and found him guilty for harassment lied. He. He was not investigated. He was not found guilty. He was not expelled. On the day that they made this announcement, he was literally still a member in good standing of scbwi, but they were panicked and they wanted to cover their asses, and so they threw him on the pyre. And. And I think probably didn't think much of it at the time. But the unfortunate thing about this type of campaign, you know, to destroy somebody's life and livelihood over rumors, is that for the person who takes all of the fallout from it, this stuff has a long tail. It doesn't necessarily ever go away. And the more vague it is, the worse it is, because people use their imaginations to fill in the blanks in ways that are not supported by whatever actually happened.
- [41:31]
Matt Jones
Yeah, I always say that a silence somewhat. Something fills the void on those things. So. So there was net. Are you saying on. On his particular case, there were never any names put forth in terms of who had been the accuser?
- [41:49]
Kat Rosenfield
That's correct. No woman ever came forward to say that he had done anything to her. There was never a lawsuit. There was never a criminal case. There were rumors posted in the comments of a blog.
- [42:03]
Matt Jones
That's what was interesting in your article is how much it went from comment section to real world. I mean, I remember vaguely reading the story that he was a harasser, but then reading nothing else about it, not thinking anything else about it until you saw that. But. And so I. If I saw him on the street, I wouldn't have known. But then again, that's not my world. But in his world, he was Basically blackballed, is what you're saying.
- [42:33]
Kat Rosenfield
Yeah, yeah.
- [42:34]
Matt Jones
And so what. What is the way now that we've had the sort of benefit of hindsight of the four or five years since sort of the peak of that? What is the lesson for all, for all of these things, for culture? Like, how do you balance the need for people to feel the ability to come forward with claims or with their stories versus the need, for lack of a better term, right. Of a fair trial in the public?
- [43:05]
Kat Rosenfield
I mean, we've never really been very good at giving people a fair trial in the court of public opinion, which is one reason why the rise of the Internet as a place, as a medium for spreading rumors has been so destructive and so toxic. I mean, this is a difficult question, I think, unfortunately, and this is probably true of many movements. The MeToo movement started from a place that was legitimate. We wanted to talk about how the specter of sexuality looms over women in their professional lives in a way that it shouldn't. It was very, very quickly dragged out of that narrow and useful context and weaponized by people who just had been disappointed by a man in some context and wanted revenge or wanted to see something done about it, or wanted the cachet that of kind comes with announcing oneself as a victim. And, you know, it very quickly went off the rails.
- [44:14]
Matt Jones
I could see how someone would hear that and go, that's a very, like, cynical viewpoint. Although if you read your article, you could understand, especially in the context of his story, why one would have that. But still, there are certainly occasions where such allegations are correct. And if I am Joe or. Or Sarah, the consumer, how do I tell one from the other?
- [44:43]
Kat Rosenfield
I mean, but I guess that's the.
- [44:46]
Matt Jones
Question, because, like you, I'm sure you're right, that that did happen. But then there are other times that the harassment did happen. So how. How is the world supposed to figure out what you do? How do you decide who is P. Diddy and who is this guy who you did. 13 reasons why. Like, how do you. How do you decide which one to believe if you don't have the time to process all of this?
- [45:12]
Kat Rosenfield
Well, I mean, ideally we would stop using social media as this sort of extralegal workaround for adjudicating offenses that are not criminal, you know, for adjudicating our disappointments with people and, you know, and then we wouldn't have to worry about that. But I don't think that is a going to happen, unfortunately. I don't think that is going back in the bag. But then you know, the. The main thing here, and this is. This is a media failure, is, you know, a failure to investigate and instead to just, you know, run with the information provided. You know, in this case, SCBWI's executive director, Lynn Oliver, made this announcement to the press that she had investigated, found responsible, and expelled Jay Asher for harassment. And that was a lie, and everybody printed it. And then nobody ever investigated it. Nobody ever went back to say, wait, did we get this wrong? Many people embellished it, you know, or were sloppy in the way that they talked about it. People said he was accused of harassment. He never was. And I don't really know what you do about an information landscape like that. I mean, people should be more careful about vetting stories before repeating them. They should be more skeptical when they hear something like this, especially if it rings all of their bells, you know, if it makes them outraged. If a thing makes you outraged and it's, like, perfectly calibrated to make you outraged, you probably should investigate it that much harder, because there may be something not quite right there.
- [46:52]
Matt Jones
I really like that line. That's probably. That's true of everything. Right. If it feels perfectly calibrated for you to be outraged, maybe you're missing something that's interesting.
- [47:02]
Kat Rosenfield
Yeah. I mean, this is something that I take seriously. You know, as a journalist, I understand that there are going to be stories that seem to confirm every single one of my biases, and we refer to these stories as, like, too good to verify. You don't want to scratch the surface too hard, because if it turns out not to be true, it's, like, so good.
- [47:21]
Matt Jones
But. But most people don't want to do that. And I would argue there's no incentive now in media to be. Well, it's complicated. I mean, I remember when Rush Limbaugh died. I'm a radio guy. And even though I thought Rush Limbaugh was horrendously awful at times for culture, it's objectively true. He's one of the two or three biggest radio personalities in history and completely changed the medium. And I wrote on Twitter, RIP Rush Limbaugh, you can't help but argue, along with Howard Stern and one or two other people, was the main mover of radio in the late 20th century. And liberal friends of mine sent me the meanest things in the world, and just like, how could you salute him? And I just said, well, he just died. I mean, like, why do you have to be mean to somebody on the day they died? And conservatives have the same thing. If they just go well, maybe he shouldn't. Trump shouldn't say this. They get crushed. It's hard to take those positions in today's world, isn't it?
- [48:24]
Kat Rosenfield
Yeah, I don't really have a lot of sympathy for people who say that it's hard. You got to do it anyway.
- [48:29]
Matt Jones
You. Okay, but you also, like, you're also at a place that really seems to want to value that. Not every media outlet does, do they?
- [48:43]
Kat Rosenfield
Doesn't that strike you as kind of sad?
- [48:46]
Matt Jones
It does, but I would say I want to be careful because I don't want to put you in a position where I'm talking about the entity. But there are other but like if you work at Fox News or you work at msnbc, even if you want to sort of do what we're talking about, you might have incentives that make it virtually impossible for you and you have a mortgage and you have to. Do you know what I mean?
- [49:10]
Kat Rosenfield
Yeah, I don't think. Well, I don't know. We've gotten very far away, you know, unfortunately, from the notion of journalists and journalism as primarily a truth seeking.
- [49:25]
Matt Jones
No, that's true. Like, I know Scott Jennings and I know he's not like he is. He got started his first time on television was with me.
- [49:32]
Kat Rosenfield
Me.
- [49:32]
Matt Jones
I know he's not like he is, but the more he's like he is, the more popular he gets. So it's almost like the incentive structure requires him to be like that.
- [49:42]
Kat Rosenfield
Well, I mean, everybody is trying to. If you're an opinion expressor, then, you know, I mean, Scott Jennings is there to offer a counterpoint to whatever else is being argued on these panels that he's on and that's his job. I mean, I think that there is a useful function if we're talking about people having conversations in a public, public forum and just, you know, giving voice to ideas. One of the things that has been absent from a lot of especially legacy media is just representation of more than one side of a given issue, which leaves everybody somewhat bereft. You know, it's, it's a real impoverishment in the discourse that people often don't know what they don't know because they're only consuming a narrative slanted in one direction.
- [50:27]
Matt Jones
And social media and the Internet make that worse. Let's, let's end with this. On culture. When you, when I was young or in college, etc, I remember the final episode of Seinfeld, the final episode of season one of Survivor, all music artists, Everybody at least knew who they were, even if it wasn't the kind of music you were interested in in today's world, Is the there any unifying culture at all to you?
- [50:55]
Kat Rosenfield
There's not. I mean, this is one of the interesting challenges of being a culture writer in 2026 is that we are all increasingly inside our own siloed ecosystems where we are, you know, people who watch the same shows, consume news from the same source, read the same books, and I don't really know how you get away from that. There's very little cross, cross pollination. We are all in these sort of paywalled gardens at this point, just, you know, consuming stuff that rings all of our particular bells. And you know, we occasionally have a moment where an event happens that cross pollinates to all of the different, like ecosystems where people are living, consuming entertainment, consuming news. And what you see, and this was very much the case with Minneapolis, is people come out of their little gardens to try to talk to each other and they have been inhabiting completely different narrative realities. They don't agree on a shared truth about what happened. And it makes conversation very difficult. Which is one of the reasons why I see my job as trying to establish what is true. What are we actually seeing? How can we understand it better and in depth? And can we find a version of this truth that we all agree on so that we can then talk about maybe what to do about it?
- [52:20]
Matt Jones
Is Taylor Swift and like the super bowl, the last of the things that people all at least know something about?
- [52:30]
Kat Rosenfield
Yeah, maybe. I mean, you know, she's up there. We had a moment during the pandemic. Everyone was watching Tiger King. Like that was.
- [52:36]
Matt Jones
That was one. Yes, Tiger King. But, you know, TV's interesting because I love television and I find it fascinating. The kind of television I like tends to be talked about a lot. But then there's this whole world of television that I don't even know exists that gets massive ratings like the CBS Friday night shows like Blue Bloods and all this. My mom watches every episode. It's been on for 20 years. And I don't think the popular culture has ever talked about it. Like, it's never in the New York Times, but he did Rivalry, a gay hockey show that maybe 2 million people have watched, is gets every headline and the guys are coming out at the Golden Globes. It's interesting. I feel like the coverage of culture is numerically about a very small part of culture. Do you agree or no?
- [53:26]
Kat Rosenfield
Yeah, absolutely. The people who are leading the national conversation about culture, television, art and so on, they are generally in a rarefied sphere. And are not speaking to, you know, what is popular, they're speaking to what is popular amongst a very particular, usually highly educated, politically liberal coastal cohort.
- [53:48]
Matt Jones
Do you think that's a market deficiency that somebody should. I know in the world of sports, college football is way undercovered to how popular it is. And in recent couple of years there have been shows that have realized that and have really grown by just saying, hey, why does everyone only talk about the NFL all across rural America? College football is huge. And now you're starting to see more of those. Do you think that would be true with entertainment as well? That like someone should take the time to say, why is CSI been on for 25 years and most people don't know? Like we never have seen one article about it anywhere.
- [54:29]
Kat Rosenfield
I don't know. You'd have to persuade the people who are writing about that, this stuff to get interested in csi. And I don't know if you want to do that.
- [54:36]
Matt Jones
You're one of them. You want to write. Why write about. I would read your article about CSI.
- [54:40]
Kat Rosenfield
And Blue Blood about csi. Well, you know, I mean, I, I don't know. I, I have to confess, I don't watch csi. I also don't watch, I don't watch Heated Rivalry either. But you know, there's, this is, the other thing is there is so much culture out there, there's so much art out there, there's so much content. And, and this is a tricky thing now that people can just, you know, no one's going to be able to watch everything. We don't have it like it was when there were three channels and everybody was watching the same shows. So I think that there is this question of are we going to see not just microcultures in terms of people kind of siloing themselves off with whatever their preferred art is. And you have like, you know, the folks over on Paramount watching Yellowstone in one silo and you have like the horny ladies watching Heated Rivalry in another silo. And then you know, you have like dads reading World War II fiction in their silo or whatever. You know, are we going to have that? And then are we also going to have, you know, separate media ecosystems that sprout up just to talk about these shows specifically to their audience? I think we're seeing that a little bit now in terms of very kind of like micro specific content made by creators on TikTok.
- [55:57]
Matt Jones
Yes.
- [55:58]
Kat Rosenfield
At this point the algorithm can show you what you're interested in and you can kind of make it your own by engaging with stuff. And maybe this is the future. And you know, I don't know that that's necessarily again, a thing that we can put back in the bag. The question, I guess is what does it do to us as a kind of common species? Like, are we going to find less and less to connect on?
- [56:19]
Matt Jones
So what is. We'll get you out with this. What is Cat Rosary and Fields Silo? Like, what do you consume that you think is good?
- [56:27]
Kat Rosenfield
Oh, goodness. I mean, I try to read and consume widely. I have exceptionally low brow taste.
- [56:37]
Matt Jones
Except for csi. You don't like csi?
- [56:40]
Kat Rosenfield
But I love. Oh, but I love Law and Order.
- [56:42]
Matt Jones
Okay, all right, so let's.
- [56:43]
Kat Rosenfield
I'm a Law and Order completist.
- [56:45]
Matt Jones
All right. Oh, you're a completist. You've seen all of them? Those.
- [56:48]
Kat Rosenfield
Yes. Oh, wow. But you know, I just, for instance, last night watched the rip. The new Matt Damon.
- [56:55]
Matt Jones
Was it good?
- [56:55]
Kat Rosenfield
Ben Affleck vehicle on Netflix. It is good for what it is.
- [57:00]
Matt Jones
Okay, as long as you know what it is. TNT at 4:00 the afternoon when you're at home, you flip it on. Is that what it is?
- [57:05]
Kat Rosenfield
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I also, you know, over the summer I read David Copperfield by Charles Dickens for the first time. And I guess, you know, the thing that I would say maybe this is where we could still find common ground on cultural issues is to go back to things that are considered great books. They are considered great books for a reason. And for a long time, so much of what was being produced was downstream of things like either classic novels that everybody had read or stories everybody had read in the Bible, things people had read in Shakespeare. We used to have a kind of a, a common understanding of, you know, where these narratives come from. And they would ring certain bells and you would say, I recognize that, I recognize that theme. I recognize this type of character from other stories that I've consumed. We've become kind of rootless. I think this is very much true as creators that oftentimes you have people who are writing stories who are coming from a context where like they don't actually read that much. They haven't read, you know, the great books, they haven't read the Bible, they're not familiar with the stories that came before. And, and so they're creating something that's not in conversation with the rest of culture and it, and it feels kind of hollow and it's not a thing that a lot of people can coalesce around and talk about in the way that we used to Have. So, yeah, I guess if I was going to prescribe something, I would say, you know, like, go. Go back in time.
- [58:30]
Matt Jones
Go read Moby Dick. Is that what you're saying? I hated Moby Dick.
- [58:34]
Kat Rosenfield
Are you going, oh, Moby Dick's great.
- [58:37]
Matt Jones
Read what we did about all these. About the whales and the blubber. It's like. It's so. It's just too much. Melville's all Billy Bud. It's all. I can't deal with it. It's not. I don't. I don't know. You think I should try again, though? It's been 20 years.
- [58:51]
Kat Rosenfield
Well, I think, you know, it's good you read it once. So now when somebody says, that is my white whale.
- [58:56]
Matt Jones
Yeah, I know what they mean.
- [58:57]
Kat Rosenfield
You know? You know what they mean.
- [58:59]
Matt Jones
I still read Dostoevsky. I'll read him. Even if. Even if they. I won't. If I can't do the other. Now you have a book coming out. Have you. Have you had a book out before?
- [59:09]
Kat Rosenfield
This is my sixth book.
- [59:10]
Odoo Advertising Announcer
Sixth.
- [59:11]
Matt Jones
Okay, well, I'm gonna have to read. I didn't know about the others. I've just read your online writing called Survive in the Woods. It's. You say it's a wilderness thriller. What does that mean?
- [59:20]
Kat Rosenfield
Yeah, I write what I like to call highbrow airport fiction. We could also call it literary thrillers.
- [59:27]
Matt Jones
Highbrow airport. So give people an example. What's a high. Highbrow airport fiction? What's a. An example of that?
- [59:33]
Kat Rosenfield
Gone Girl.
- [59:34]
Matt Jones
Oh, I loved Gone Girl. Okay, so I'm in. Go ahead.
- [59:37]
Kat Rosenfield
Yep, that's. That's my world. I write literary thrillers. Character driven. I. And, you know. But also Pacey and Plotty. And this is a sexy wilderness survival thriller about three people who go to hike the Appalachian Trail, two women and a man who are all involved, entangled in certain ways that I won't spoil here, but what you need to know is, is three people go into the woods and fewer than that come out.
- [60:02]
Matt Jones
I love it. I love trying. I grew up in Appalachia, so I'm going to now even want to read it more to see if you got my home place. Correct.
- [60:11]
Kat Rosenfield
Well, this takes place in Maine in the Hundred Mile Wilderness.
- [60:14]
Matt Jones
Oh, okay. That's a different part of Apple, but.
- [60:16]
Kat Rosenfield
I will say I'm from rural upstate New York. My theory of the country is that no matter where you go, a redneck is a redneck is a redneck.
- [60:25]
Matt Jones
That's true. A West Virginia, Kentucky redneck is a little different than the rest But I will. I will. I will agree with you. I am excited about that. Survive in the woods comes out March.
- [60:37]
Kat Rosenfield
10Th as a little how to survive in the woods.
- [60:40]
Matt Jones
How to survive in the woods. Sorry. How to survive in the woods. March 10, by the way, is when this just sticks out. I've written one book. That's when it came out. The problem was, for me, it was March 10, 2020, which, if you can do the timeline, means bookstores closed. I was the last set of people that had books come out before bookstores closed. And those authors that had books come out that week, we've all become friends because we were like the last group of people to have books come out and then not get sold in public. So we had to sell them basically all online. And so there's this whole group of people that I'm friends with that I would have never otherwise known. We started like a list search of those of us who COVID ruined our book releases. So.
- [61:25]
Kat Rosenfield
Oh, my goodness. Well, I'm sorry for your.
- [61:28]
Matt Jones
But it was March 10th. That's why I remember it was March 10th, 2020. So, Kat, thank you very much. You can read her work in the Free Press. Also, the femme chaos pod. You still do that, correct?
- [61:42]
Kat Rosenfield
Feminine chaos. Yes. I co host that with Phoebe Maltz Bovey and we talk about, I don't know, lady stuff. Stuff.
- [61:48]
Matt Jones
Lady stuff. Billy and I will. Will listen on our next drive. But how. How to survive in the woods. Thank you very much and love to have you on again sometime.
- [61:57]
Kat Rosenfield
Thanks, Matt. It was very great to be here.
- [61:59]
Matt Jones
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