Episode 37 - Jordan Ritter Conn

Summary

Interrupted by Matt Jones – Episode 37 with Jordan Ritter Conn
iHeartPodcasts | May 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this deeply engaging episode, Kentucky Sports Radio Host Matt Jones interviews Jordan Ritter Conn, sportswriter for The Ringer and recent author of American Men. The conversation ranges far beyond the book itself, exploring American masculinity, the impact of cultural narratives, Conn’s sportswriting career and encounters, and uniquely Appalachian religious practices. Importantly, the episode maintains a warm, inquisitive, and empathetic tone as the two navigate subjects like sports history, the war on drugs, snake-handling churches, and modern anxieties around “the manosphere.”

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

Introducing Jordan Ritter Conn & "American Men"

[00:11 - 03:03]

• Matt Jones introduces Conn, referencing a recent joint event and describing Conn as not only a talented writer but an engaging conversationalist.
• Conn summarizes "American Men" as chronicling the intimate, interwoven lives of four men grappling with pressures and contradictions of masculinity.
  • “It is a book about four different men, all of whom have some kind of tension in their lives around their relationship to masculinity ... It kind of lets you into the corners of people's lives that you otherwise wouldn't get to see." (Conn, [01:29])
• Jones draws literary comparisons with "Three Women," which Conn acknowledges as a structure model, though his book’s thematic scope is broader, encapsulating the evolution of masculine expectations from childhood to adulthood.

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Masculinity in Modern America

[03:03 - 07:06]

• Jones and Conn explore what American culture currently expects men to be.
  • Conn identifies “stoic emotional reserve,” “physical dominance,” and “romantic/sexual attractiveness” as core, learned expectations for men.
  • “I think that we all get certain ideas ... one is emotionally reserved ... Another is physically dominant ... and then, you know, sexually, romantically attractive.” (Conn, [03:23])
• They discuss how post-COVID and via social media bro-influencer culture, “cartoonish” versions of masculinity and dominance have reasserted themselves.
  • “Everyone's just kind of more and more isolated ... and the image that people want to project online is one where, like, physical strength is what matters most.” (Conn, [05:05])
• The conversation delves into sports, with Conn emphasizing that while competition and strength are valid drives, current cultural narratives overly emphasize individual domination, missing team and community values inherent in sports themselves.

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Reflections on Sportswriting, Venues, & Bill Simmons’ Legacy

[07:06 - 17:10]

• Jones asks Conn about the most memorable events he’s covered.
  • Highlights include the initial Cavs-Warriors finals (Steph vs. LeBron), and authentically charged venues like Rupp Arena (especially for Calipari’s return) and Allen Fieldhouse.
    • “The animosity was great. Yeah, palpable. Like, you could just, like you could feel the intensity of it from the moment you walked in the building.” (Conn, [08:33])
• Jones reminisces about discovering Bill Simmons and how Simmons opened up the “fan’s voice” in sports journalism.
• Conn discusses his path from traditional journalism to Grantland/The Ringer. He credits Simmons as visionary, lauding his risk-taking, willingness to let writers inject personality, and a “best version of yourself” workplace culture.
  • “He believes in hiring people who he believes in and then trusting them to do whatever it is that they do.” (Conn, [16:09])
• The discussion touches on the outsized impact of Grantland’s alumni and Simmons’ enduring influence as a mentor and boss.

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Revisiting the Story of Len Bias

[17:10 - 25:04]

• Jones prompts Conn to recount his work on the acclaimed podcast about Len Bias, the promising Maryland basketball star whose cocaine overdose after the NBA draft became a national cautionary tale.
  • Conn emphasizes Bias’s place as a cultural flashpoint—his tragic death used as justification for draconian drug laws that disproportionately affected Black Americans.
  • “His name was being used on the ... floor of the Capitol ... the reason for ramping up ... drug laws, especially around mandatory minimums” (Conn, [18:04])
• Both note that the “lens” applied to Bias's death and the legislative backlash still echo in the justice system today, with Conn underlining the problematic, racialized responses and the human tragedy underlying policy shifts.
  • “His memory became churned up by this machine that was already kind of in motion … So many forces were kind of coming together all at once around this one event.” (Conn, [23:59])

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Reporting from a Snake-Handling Church

[25:04 - 39:27]

• Jones and Conn discuss Conn’s longform article on Appalachian snake-handling churches, especially in Middlesboro, Kentucky.
  • Conn grew up in a related Pentecostal tradition, familiar with charismatic practices (speaking in tongues, energetic worship), but snake-handling felt “a step wilder.”
  • He attended with Cody Coots (whose father and predecessor, Jamie Coots, died from a snakebite in church), witnessing both the electric atmosphere and the congregants' search for meaning and identity.
    • “You see them getting ready to bite. Usually they get a little spooked … nobody actually wants to get bitten by the snake.” (Conn, [29:11])
  • The men agree that the phenomenon represents a search for belonging and "extreme" faith, especially in communities with limited economic and social prospects:
    • “I've almost always interpreted it as ... the way that you might show your moral ... superiority is to take it to the most extreme ... say, we'll even do this.” (Jones, [31:30])
  • Conn stresses the need to see snake-handlers as multifaceted people: “These are people who are trying to kind of like make meaning of the world that they live in, just the way that all of us are.” ([38:46])
  • They discuss ethical questions about participation of children, noting rules (e.g., only 18+) and a rite-of-passage sense associated with the practice.

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Delving into "American Men"—Insecurity, Comparison, and Masculine Identity

[39:27 - 44:39]

• Discussion turns to the specific stories in American Men, especially “Gideon,” a seemingly ideal man (West Point quarterback, 6'6", handsome) whose insecurities still haunt him when his wife has an affair with his commanding officer.
  • “He checked every benchmark of, like, who a man is supposed to be. But ... you can have all of those things ... and still, at some point, you're going to be dealing with a certain [insecurity].” (Conn, [40:42])
• They laugh about reading (in front of their mothers) the book's opening passage on penis size anxiety—an emblem of masculinity’s irrational internal comparisons.
• Jones suggests Gideon's fixation is a coping mechanism, focusing pain on what he cannot control. Conn agrees, relating this to the broader, learned male impulse for comparison and inferiority.

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Raising Boys & Responding to the Manosphere

[44:39 - 49:41]

• A question from a single mother asks how to raise a good son in a world full of "monster" stories about lonely, destructive men.
  • Conn advocates teaching boys they are seen and good, holding them accountable, and modeling “fully invested” relationships—emphasizing that harmful behaviors are learned, not innate.
  • “It's hard to have that same anger for a little boy … all of the stuff that people get frustrated with … is learned. It's not ingrained.” (Conn, [44:39])
• Discussing the "bro podcast" phenomenon (Portnoy, etc.), Conn argues such influencers encourage indulgence in base, antisocial behaviors, offering only a “limiting” version of manhood and neglecting more communal, fulfilling possibilities.
  • “They give, like, permission to ... indulge the, like, kind of, like, basest pieces of themselves. ... If you are always indulging the parts of yourself that only want to ... make yourself feel more powerful, it's going to lead to a pretty, like, hollow and unfulfilling life.” (Conn, [47:26])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Modern Masculinity:
  • “Masculinity is not like a fixed, immutable thing. ... we can all kind of define it in our own ways over the course of our lives.” (Conn, [04:09])
• On the Cultural Power of Sports Venues:
  • “Everyone there knows that they're part of something special just because they're in that building.” (Conn, [11:00])
• On Simmons as a Pioneer:
  • “He just opened up a new set of possibilities for what a sports writer could be.” (Conn, [12:13])
• On Snake Handling as Meaning:
  • “This particular kind of faith injected a sense of real meaning … just energy and electricity. Like, it's thrilling. You feel like you're part of something.” (Conn, [31:30])
• On Raising Boys:
  • “All of the stuff that people get frustrated with about … the ways in which we can deal with anger ... that stuff is learned. It's not ingrained.” (Conn, [44:39])

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Key Timestamps

• 00:11 – Introduction; overview of Conn’s book
• 03:03 – Masculinity: expected traits, social influences
• 07:06 – Sportswriting highlights and historic venues
• 11:00 – Bill Simmons and the changing culture of sports journalism
• 17:10 – The story and legacy of Len Bias
• 25:04 – Reporting on Appalachian snake handling churches
• 39:27 – Deep dive on American Men and masculine insecurity
• 44:39 – Raising boys, masculinity, and the “manosphere” critique
• 49:41 – Closing thoughts, book plug, farewell

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Conclusion

This episode of Interrupted is a rich, insightful conversation bridging sports, culture, identity, and regional tradition. Matt Jones and Jordan Ritter Conn manage to be thoughtful, sensitive, and frequently witty, offering listeners both keen analysis and humanizing stories about what it means to be a man, a writer, and a seeker of meaning in modern America. Highly recommended for anyone interested in culture, sports, or understanding the complicated role of masculinity today.

Transcript

[A]

This is Interrupted by Matt Jones on Newsradio 840 WHAS.

[B]

Now here's Matt Jones.

[A]

Welcome everybody, to episode 37 of Interrupted by Matt Jones, where we love to bring on people to talk about interesting things. And today we have with us, I'm speaking with, from the ringer, Jordan Ritter Kahn. I did an event last night in Louisville with Jordan talking about his book. And then I realized, you know what, Jordan is not only does he have a good book, he is also interesting beyond that. So he's a perfect guest for this podcast he's coming to us live from it looks like a hotel in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Jordan, how are you?

[B]

I'm good, Matt, you know, had to drive through the rain today from Louisville to Chattanooga.

[A]

But did you go over Jellicoe Mountain? Is that right?

[B]

I must have. I went over some sort of mountain. A lot of back roads, a lot of switchbacks, not a lot of highway. It was great.

[A]

Well, we'll talk about. You could have gone through Middlesborough, but you've been there before, so you wouldn't have needed to, you didn't need to experience it. But we're having you on. You wrote it came out a couple weeks ago, American Men. I'm holding it up to the camera here. And for somebody with no knowledge of the book, what's your like 30 second description of what it is?

[B]

Yeah, it, it is a book about four different men, all of whom have some kind of tension in their lives around their relationship to masculinity. And it's these like really intimate, interwoven stories about the kind of stuff that men are often told. Like we won't talk about, you know, these guys kind of let me into their lives and let me kind of chronicle who they are in a way that's, you know, hopefully feels like a page turner and feels like something that kind of lets you into the corners of people's lives that you otherwise wouldn't get to see.

[A]

It's basically four biographies and you sort of interweave their stories. I read a book a few years ago that was about women, which I think your book has been compared to Three women. Is that what it's called? I can't be the first person who's made that comparison. But it was a similar thing with three women stories. Did you, I assume you had seen that before you did this. This, right?

[B]

I did, yeah. I'd read that book and, and thought it was great. I mean, it's, that book is like exclusively focused on women's relationship to like sex and Desire. And this one, I wanted to do something that's similar in structure, like really immersive, but the topic is a bit broader. Yes. You know, it's a bit more like just how we in. Internalize ideas around masculinity from the time we're really, really young kids and what that looks like over the course of our lives, how of shapes us. The lessons we're learning about who a man is supposed to be from when we're 2, 3 years old, all the way up until, you know, middle age and older.

[A]

Well, so let's. Kind of even broader than the book, let's just say what do you think people in America in 2026 expect men to be? Because my chances are Billy and I are not that that's sitting over here. So what. What is it that you think that they're expected to be?

[B]

Yeah, you know, I think that we all get certain ideas. It can look different depending on your family, your cultural context, whatever else. But we all get these ideas that. That we learn from a young age. One is emotionally reserved, not expressive, not open, you know, kind of. Kind of stoic. Another is physically dominant, you know, in some way, shape or form, being able to. And being willing to impose your will on other people and then, you know, sexually, romantically attractive. You know, like, I think that that's something that we're taught we're supposed to be from. From a young age.

[A]

So you mean when you say impose your will, you. You like. You think part of being a man is like being able to dominate a situation? Is that right?

[B]

I think that that's what we're taught. Yeah. I mean, I don't think that. I think that, you know, the nice thing about it is we can all kind of define it in our own ways over the course of our lives. Like, masculinity is not like a fixed, immutable thing. It is just something that we kind of like, is in our culture that we're learning about what we're supposed to be. But we can kind of come to define it however we want to. But yeah, I do think that we're taught, like, you're supposed to be able to impose your will. You're supposed to be able to, like, be strong and make other people feel weak. I mean, and it feels like there's

[A]

a lot more of that now. Like, it feels like there's a lot more of this idea that I. You know, all these guys have bro podcasts where they talk about, you know, you need to work out and you need to do all this, I'm sure that's how it was in like the 50s and 60s. But then it felt like people got away from that and maybe post Covid, that's kind of re. Emerged in society. Do you agree with that?

[B]

I think there's something to that. Yeah. Like the fact that we're. I don't know, you just have all of these influencers online who are basically teaching people that a version of masculinity, that can feel pretty cartoonish. You know, I think it comes from the fact that everyone's just kind of more and more isolated from each other. We're not. We're not encountering other people in. In the real world. We're encountering people kind of mediated through our phones and through screens. And the image that people want to project online is one where, like, physical strength that was. Is what matters most. Not even necessarily anything you can do with that physical strength, just having it and being able to show it to other people, being able to like, show the idea that you could dominate someone in some way.

[A]

And you're a sports writer. I mean, so that's a big part of sports. Is that kind of dealing with that? Is that kind of what drove drew you to the topic? I mean, you've had to be in locker rooms and talk to a lot of sports figures, and that's a key part of playing in sports. It's kind of what makes you good in most cases.

[B]

Absolutely. I mean, and I think, you know, like, it's not that this stuff is always unhealthy. Like, I think it's, you know, some real competition, some kind of pushing your body to. To be the best, that it can be some, you know, wanting to be better than someone else at a thing, like, is not something that is, like, inherently bad. And I think it's okay to embrace that desire. But I. I think that sometimes it gets to be just a little bit cartoonish because sports are about that, but they're also about working within a team structure. They're also about kind of being connected to other people. They're also about kind of working toward a common goal. And. And yeah, you want to dominate. You want to make the other person feel small because they. They've just lost to you. But I. I think that sometimes our culture right now emphasizes that in, like, every single aspect of life in a way that kind of is so hyper individualistic and, and that that's not really healthy for us.

[A]

Now, we'll come back at the end to the book, but you are sports writer, so you've been to many sporting events. I always like to ask questions about people's backgrounds. What is the best sporting event you've covered during your time at the ringer? Because you get to write these long form pieces, you don't have to just put something out quickly. Which one has been the one that you enjoyed the most?

[B]

Yeah, let's see. The first of The Cavs, Warriors, NBA Finals, when it was Steph and LeBron kind of each at their peak. I. I got to go to games in both Cleveland and Golden State. Of that.

[A]

Is that the one? Which one won that one? The warriors won the first one, right? Yeah. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. And then, you know, aside from that, it's really more about venues. And so, like, you know, I had my first experience at RUP last year for. For Calipari's first game back. That was, you know.

[A]

Okay, so that's great. As an outsider, what did you think of that? I was there that night and I was surprised. I mean, I knew it was going to be like a special moment and I kind of knew people were going to be a little, I don't know, have some rancor towards Cal, but I was surprised in the first 20 minutes or so how, like, it was a little hostile in there. Were you surprised by that?

[B]

You know, again, I was coming as an outsider, so I didn't really know what to expect at all. And so I will say that when I got there, I was like, this is awesome. Like, the animosity was great. Yeah, palpable. Like, you could just, like you could feel the intensity of it from the moment you walked in the building. You could see it on Cal, like in the tunnel before the game. I don't think he really came out onto the court until it was actually about time for tip off.

[A]

And there were so many people surrounding it when he tried to walk out, like, I was there too. Everybody just wanted to see that moment that he came in for the first time.

[B]

Yeah, it was, you know, it was just one of those moments that, like, everyone who is involved knows this is a massive moment in the life of this institution, in the life of this person who has become kind of a legend in the sport and in this town and then the state and. But, you know, during the game, I turned to the person who was sitting next to me, my colleague, Kyle Mann, and asked him, like, how often Rupp felt like this. And he was like, I'm not sure I've ever seen it.

[A]

Yeah, I agree with that. It was. It had a. It had a thing. And then we Got crushed. And so it ended up being kind of an odd result. It was just a blowout the entire game.

[B]

Yeah, it did. The air came out of the building for sure, but it was. I don't know, it was one of those kind of sports moments that I will not forget. And one of those venues that lives up to that, to the Hype. You know, the other college basketball venue I've been to that, like, that is Allen Fieldhouse. And, like, anytime the Hype video before the game begins with James Naismith, you know that you're kind of in for something.

[A]

And they have that chant. That chant is very haunting when you're there in person. The Rock Chalk Jayhawk.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It really kind of sweeps you away, you know, outside of college basketball. Lambeau feels the same way. I've been there a number of times, and it's just one of those places that you can feel the history. You can feel that so many people who are. There are people for whom it's like, one of the biggest moments in their lives as sports fans to get to go there. You know, they're just a few venues like that in sports that feel like everyone there knows that they're part of something special just because they're in that building. And Lambeau, along with Allen Fieldhouse, along with Rupp and some others, kind of fit that bill.

[A]

So it was probably 2001 that I discovered Bill Simmons. I would print off his articles. I was at a law firm working for the summer, and I hated it. And I would print off his articles and go, like, hide in the toilet and read them so that I would not have to work, basically. And I remember when reading them, thinking. Because at the time, the idea of being a fan of a team and writing just that didn't happen. Like, there was this idea you had to be objective. And here was this guy who was a Boston sports fan and who just completely acknowledged it and was funny and made pop culture references. I mean, it completely changed what I thought I could do. And I. I say all the time, I probably wouldn't have even started this career if not for that. You started working for. How old are you?

[B]

I'm 41, so you were a little

[A]

bit younger than me. But, like, he still is. I think he complete. He frustrates the hell out of me at times, but I do think he completely changed the whole dynamic. How did you end up. You worked at Grantland with him all the way through the ringer, right?

[B]

Yeah. You know, I. My relationship to him is, like, similar to yours and that like, I was in college when he, when he first started writing and you know, it was, it was appointment reading. Like any, anytime he had new column out, regardless of what it was about, like, I, I wanted to read it. I wanted his perspective. I didn't care about the Red Sox, but when they went on that run, like, I wanted to read him responding to every single game. And you know, he kind of, he just opened up a new set of possibilities for what a sports writer could be. You know, I think he understood that people didn't always connect to kind of the, the old styles of doing things. He understood that if you inject a little bit more of your personality into it, if you are upfront about your kind of biases and your rooting interests, that the people kind of feel like they, they get to know you over time. And you know, my, my background in journalism has been a bit more traditional. You know, I went to J school, did all that stuff. Like, I wanted to be always kind of like a long form narrative writer, but I was always drawn to the work that he was doing. And then when he started Grantland, I was really drawn to that because I knew that they would take risks, because risk was always baked into everything that he had done. He'd kind of broken the mold of who a sportswriter was supposed to be. And I knew that what Grantland was going to be was a place that continued to do that. They took all sorts of risks. And the way that they covered things in the stories that they chose, I mean, they would, they sent me, you know, all over the world to, to write about stories that no one else would be, would have been interested in. And it was because there was this sense that, like, if you think a little bit outside the box, if you're willing to kind of really take some risks and do things that you get passionate about, you can trust that an audience is also going to get passionate about it. And, and so basically the moment Grantland launched, it became my dream job. And, and I started freelancing for them and then ended up getting hired a couple years.

[A]

And it was a pretty amazing array of people that worked there for a period of time. I mean, they, you know, they had. Well, I mean, you can give me some of the names like, like, like some of the people that started there. It's, it's crazy what they ended up doing.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, you know, on the like, kind of like more hardcore sports side, like Zach Lowe, Bill Barnwell, but then also on the pop culture side, you know, Wesley Morris, who's won.

[A]

Who's at the. Been in the New York Times.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hua Shu, who won. Won a Pulitzer Prize for his book Stay True a couple years ago. Chuck Klosterman was obviously very involved. You know, Brian Phillips, Katie Baker, who are now my colleagues at the Ringer. You know, just. It was just the sort of place where you felt like you had to be the very best version of yourself because you knew the talent of everyone else who worked there. And you had this sense that, like, if your stuff wasn't up to par, it was going to stand out because you're. You're on this site alongside so many of these other legendary writers. Another one, Charlie Pierce, who was kind

[A]

of a. Oh, yeah. Who was, like, written for Esquire and all kinds of things. Yeah. So did you. So let me ask you about Simmons, because, like, I think I've gone through. And I know this is tough because, like, he's your boss, too, so you have to be, but I've gone through 25 years of reading and listening to Bill Simmons. I still listen to all his podcasts. I mean, it's. I think a lot of the narrative about him is kind of how I felt. He was like my hero. He's been on my show once, and then he got, like, had insane success. And then I get frustrated by him, but yet I still listen to him, and I'm still intrigued by him. What's he like outside of the times I hear he and cousin Sal picking lines. Right.

[B]

Yeah. You know, I don't want to kind of overstate my. My relationship to him or act like we're, like, close friends or anything. He's. He's just been an incredible boss to me, you know, and he's been like the cult of the places that he started at Grantland and at the Ringer. Like, I'll say this, he believes in hiring people who he believes in and then trusting them to do whatever it is that they do. Trusting that if he believes in someone's talent and that person is then really passionate about something, that that passion is going to come through and it's going to connect with an audience. And I think you saw that at Grantland, where, you know, a place that was built very much around the writing. And you've seen that at the Ringer, a place that's kind of, like, spread its wings a little bit more and gotten involved in a lot more things. Just this sense that, like, if you have the talent and if you have passion, no matter where that talent and that Passion is directed like an audience is going to follow.

[A]

Now you, as part of that, have done a long form podcast. A couple of them you've done writing. One of your topics was Lynn Bias, who. There are people out here listening to this who may not even know who Lynn Bias was. When I was a kid, Lynn Bias was like the warning story for don't do drugs for people like me. Was picked, what, second in the draft? Third in the draft.

[B]

Third.

[A]

Third in the draft was. Well, you can tell the story quickly. He was picked by the Celtics. And how was it. It wasn't. Was it that night, the next night that he, he passed away?

[B]

Yeah. So, you know, it's been a few years since I did this podcast, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to, to remember.

[A]

But you won awards for it. And I, and I think it's, and it's a, I mean, it's a story that has kind of gotten lost to history if you're not from our generation.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So the thing is, if you mentioned the name Lynn Bias to anyone of a certain age, regardless of whether they were sports fans and certainly regardless of whether they were college basketball fans, they know who he was. Because for people a bit older than me, people maybe born in the mid-70s or so or even a little bit earlier than that, people who were kind of teenagers or adolescents around 1986 when he died, he was this cautionary tale. Yes, it was the, the story that you, he would hear from your parents about why you should never touch drugs. Because the story that was often told is Lynn Bias had never touched drugs until this night after he was drafted, when he tried cocaine for the first time. And then he died of an overdose. Turns out the story is a bit more complicated than that. He probably had used cocaine before that night. But his death had such an incredible cultural significance because it was kind of this flashpoint in the war on drugs. You know, Reagan was in office. The war on drugs had begun previously, but there was something about Lynn Bias's death that kind of like sent it into overdrive. And all of a sudden his, his name was being, you know, his name was being used on the, the floor of the Capitol. You know, Nancy Reagan is mentioning him in speeches. He becomes kind of the, the reason for ramping up some of these drug laws, especially around, like, mandatory minimums on, on, on, on cocaine and in particular, you know, crack versus powder cocaine. Even though Lynn Bias used powder cocaine, not crack. But before all of that, he was just an incredible basketball player. He played at Maryland he was, you know, a contemporary of Michael Jordan's. He was a forward who could kind of do everything. I mean like a.

[A]

Well, he was ahead of your time. He was ahead of his time in terms of, you know, you have to remember he played at Maryland, stayed a number of years, everybody got to know him. Played at a time that the acc, Duke and all that was ascending. So the games were very important. He was a big man who could shoot and handle the ball, which we're used to now, but didn't really happen as much then. And he was like kind of an athletic freak that we weren't used to. Gets picked by the most notorious franchise, the Celtics, Larry Birds there. And you think, okay, and then he's just, he's gone. And, and, and I, Even as a 8 year old kid, it terrified me.

[B]

Yeah, I mean he, like you said, I think a lot of people thought that he was a future hall of Famer. Yeah, a lot of people thought that he had that talent that he was, you know, not, it's a bit of a stretch to say he was like a fully appear of Michael Jordan's, but he was like a tier below what the expectations for Jordan were at that time. And he was going to the Celtics, who kind of lucked into this pick through a trade. And so he was going to a franchise that was already absolutely loaded with talent that had just recently won a title. And he was going to be able to come off the bench and kind of slowly grow into the superstar that would be their bridge to the next generation. And. But then instead, you know, the night when he's celebrating being drafted, he does too much cocaine and he, he overdoses and he dies. And so it becomes one of these. In the sports world it's kind of this tragic kind of what if story. In the political world it becomes this flashpoint again in the war on drugs. But then in the life of his family and the people who knew him, it's just this incredible, incredible tragedy and this loss of someone who by all accounts was like a very like kind, decent, good hearted young man who treated people really well and you know, just was, was celebrating with his friends in a way that was irresponsible and made some bad choices and all of a sudden he goes from the best night of his life to being gone.

[A]

Did you come away with that? Any sort of conclusions? I mean a lot of the laws that he, that sort of were passed after him, some of them are still in place of the man. A lot of the crack and cocaine disparities have gone away. But. But the. The hard federal drug policies still exist to this day and have proven to be fairly ineffective. I mean, did you come away with a lesson on them?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it's just. It's unbelievable how they. This young man who lived at this point 40 years ago, who was such a cultural force, who attracted so much decision, so much attention in his life, and then, you know, so much attention in his death could have an impact that lingers in ways that are like, sometimes really, like, not good. Until today, the fact that, like, these laws are still on the book. You know, like you said, some of them have been repealed, but everyone, it's really bipartisan, like, agrees that there was some enormous overreach in the wake of his death and that there was some, you know, like basically just racist thinking behind kind of discrepancies.

[A]

Sentencing in federal cases in general, like all federal cases was changed while I was a law clerk because of the backlash to the laws after Lynn Bias. Like, literally now judges are allowed to deviate from mandatory minimums, which they were not allowed to because everybody realized that the policies were so awful post bias.

[B]

Yeah. And it's really hard to imagine what. How much of that would have happened if not for his death.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And again, it's just like he just became churned up or his memory became churned up by this machine that was already kind of in motion, you know, that there was kind of this. This panic around crime in cities in the 80s and the ways in which kind of drugs interacted with that. And so then you have the death of this high profile black athlete who is beloved in so many ways. And politicians were able to kind of connect his death toward kind of their pet causes around a lot of this stuff. Again, a lot of them going back to the crack versus powder cocaine thing, when he died using powder cocaine. But it was because crack cocaine was typically associated with black Americans at that time. There it was. There was these mandatory minimums that made it much more punishing if you were caught with possession of crack than if you were caught in possession of powder cocaine. So just, I mean, he just became a flashpoint for so much. It was like so many forces were kind of coming together all at once around this one event that it's kind of hard to wrap your mind around.

[A]

It really is. Especially college basketball player. All right, I want to switch gears. You also did a story that I read last night after our event about snake handling Billy. He did it. He came to Middlesbrough. And you went to a snake Handling church. Now, when I talk about snake handling, there are a lot of people that listen to this that have no idea, or they're like, what? But you have been to snake handling churches while they handle snakes. I've been and seen the snakes pre. Handling. I was never handling the snakes. But essentially it comes from a verse in the Bible. Do you know what book it is that that's in?

[B]

It's in Mark.

[A]

It's in Mark that it basically says something to the effect of, if you are one with the Lord, you can be bitten by the most venomous snake and you will survive. Essentially, something like that. And it leads to people in certain segments of denominations of churches believing that they should handle snakes and sort of test their faith. And where I grew up in Middlesboro is almost like the centerpiece of that. And then I'll take. You take it from there. You went as an outsider and saw what.

[B]

Yeah, so I've always been fascinated by this. And, you know, I grew up in a denomination called the Church of God that's, you know, Pentecostal. And so speaking in tongues, running through the aisles, all that sort. I saw that sort of stuff, like, all the time as a kid. And I knew we were always, like, kind of one or two degrees removed from this other form of Christianity that's kind of native to the South.

[A]

They think you all are liberal. Like, absolutely, absolutely. Yes, yes.

[B]

Like every other denomination, the Southern Baptists thought of us as, like, the crazy backwoods types, but, yeah, the snake handlers thought of us as fully like, coastal elites, basically. Yes.

[A]

And you were just one county over. Basically, yeah, exactly.

[B]

Exactly. And so. But, yeah, there's this verse in Mark that says, like, if you're. Something around, like, if you're worshiping God in a certain context, like, and these signs shall follow, and that one of the signs of your faith will be being able to hold venomous snakes and. And not suffer from. From the venom. But it's not just that.

[A]

It's like, drink cyanide. There's a bunch of stuff, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah, Strychnine is usually what they. What they drink. And so I had this opportunity to go and write about it, and I reached out to this pastor. His name was Cody Coots. He was the son of a man named Jamie Coots who had died of a snake bite in the pulpit. He'd been the pastor of this church before. And I went and spent several Sundays going to the services and then interviewing members of the church afterwards. I saw them pulling out the snakes While I was there. And it was. I mean.

[A]

Well, explain what it is when you say pulling out the snakes. They pull out the snake. It's a rat rattlesnake or a copperhead. It. You can sometimes hear the rattle and they just kind of pass them around and dance. Am I right about that?

[B]

Yeah. So it starts the way that you imagine any, like, charismatic church service to start. Like, it starts with just like, emotional praise and worship music. And then maybe they'll start speaking in tongues. And then maybe people will start kind

[A]

of a lot of people listening, won't know what speaking in tongues means. What does it mean to speak in tongues?

[B]

Speaking in tongues is. Again, it's in certain denominations of Christianity when people start to speak in what is called, like, they call it a prayer language, but it sounds like. Yeah, it sounds like nonsense. Like, it sounds like gibberish. But often, like, they'll speak it while worshiping, and then sometimes someone will, like, say that they're interpreting it and will say, announce to the rest of the church, like, what this was. But if you. If you've never seen it before, when you see it, it feels. It can feel like, creepy. It can feel like someone is.

[A]

It feels like you're like in a movie where someone's possessed. It can look. It can kind of look like that. Yes.

[B]

And what they would say is that they're possessed by the Holy Spirit. But. But yeah, it can. It can feel exactly like you said, it can feel like. Like someone's possessed by something kind of outside of this realm. But so in this church, they. They do all of that and then they move on to pulling out the rattlesnakes, pulling out the copperheads, and they have them in boxes that are up front in the church. And at some point, someone decides it's time and they start getting them out. And sometimes you will see the rattles starting to move and you'll see them getting ready to. To bite. Usually they get a little spooked when. When they're worried that they're about to bite and they'll maybe put them back in the box because nobody there actually.

[A]

So you saw that maybe they get a little, you know, okay. Because they. Because they act like they're tough and they can.

[B]

But you think, right, there's a limit. There's a limit. Nobody actually wants to get bitten by the snake. But you know what they will do if they get bitten? And it depends on the person, but some of them will refuse medical treatment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this pastor, Jamie Coots, whose son I spent all this time with. He had died after refusing medical treatment and he felt like God would heal him and, and so he didn't want an ambulance to come if he ever got bit. And. And then he died. And so that now I'm, I'm writing about his son who has taken over his church, is preaching in the same spot where his father died from this bite it from the snake. And he's doing the exact same thing. And, and what I found there. And I don't. For you, as someone who's from Middlesbrough, I'm curious what, what you'll. What you'll think of this, but to me it was like the choice for so many people was between this or a life of kind of drugs and, you know, petty crime and not really having much in the way of options. These people were like really, really poor people with very few options for kind of a direction for their lives. And this particular kind of faith, like, injected a sense of like, real meaning. Injected a sense of like, also just energy and like electricity. Like, it's thrilling. I feel like you're a part of something.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I've almost always interpreted it as. Okay, so a lot of people listening to this, maybe not in Kentucky, because a lot of these listeners are from towns like this. You know, there are parts of America that being a hardcore Christian makes you the outsider. Where I grew up, that's not the case. Like, you almost knew no one that wasn't a Christian or went to church. But there's a natural human nature to want to be competitive and in whatever you do. Right. Your book is about that to some extent. And in a place where everyone is religious, the way that you might show your moral. I don't want to say superiority, but like you're the most religious is to take it to the most extreme, where no one else will and say, we'll even do this. And you know, Bell county is extremely poor, but that, but snake handling. Churches are not the only ones that have poor people. All the churches do. But there's something I almost thought almost competitive, not necessarily even in a bad sense, but like we are the most connected to the Lord because we will do this extreme thing. Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah, I think it does. I think that it is this sense of, you know, looking for anything that will kind of give you a sense of like, meaning and purpose and connection to something outside of yourself and, and that there is this sense of, you know, like I, I remember Cody, the, the pastor talking about, like he'd Been to the Southern Baptist Church in town and, you know, he didn't really understand what they were doing there. Like, it felt like there was no electricity, like there was no danger, like there was no excitement. And like he felt like he was connected to God through, like, being on the edge of this danger, the possibility of death.

[A]

And that's what everybody wants from church, is danger and the possibility of death. But they, But. But they really do, some of them.

[B]

Yeah, sometimes. Yeah. I mean, like, I. I do think that people, you know, church in various settings over. Over centuries, in different pockets of. Of, you know, culture, different pockets of the world, like, can sometimes feel like countercultural. Usually in the south, like, being a part of a church does not feel at all countercultural. Snake handling is countercultural. Like, that's true.

[A]

Even in Middlesborough. It's countercultural. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It was a way to feel like we are the ones who are the real radicals. We are the ones who are on the cutting edge, like, fully committed to our faith in a way that no one else is. I'm also fascinated by the fact that, like, this only exists in Appalachia. You know, most forms of Christianity, whether it's, you know, Catholicism, you know, the Baptist denominations, Pentecostalism, like, are all over the world. Snake handling exists in one particular part of the south, mostly in east Tennessee, eastern Kentucky, a little West Virginia. There have been a couple snake healing churches in Alabama, but nowhere else. And I don't really know quite why that is. Why it's.

[A]

It's really like eight or 10 counties. Like, it's really, like it's not even all of eastern Kentucky. Like, it's kind of southeast Kentucky, northeast Tennessee. And you're right, like a county or two of West Virginia. And being from there, I've always been fascinated like you, why that happened. I mean, I could take you to parts of northeastern Kentucky where there will be churches just as. I don't want to say wild, because that makes it seem like I'm saying negative things, but just as. Whatever. But they're not going to be like that. It's going to be different. And it is kind of interesting why that developed there. But they. But when you went there, you know, in Middlesbrough specifically, there have been multiple people die during this. You mentioned the. The father of him. How do they rationalize the death once it happens?

[B]

It's a good question. They mostly just say it was time. You know, like they believe that everyone has a time, that. That God will eventually take us all and that sometimes someone's time is when handling a snake in the pulpit, you know, I. It's tough for that to kind of stand up to much scrutiny. I think when, like, you were. You were choosing to hold something that can kill you in your hands. But that. That. That's the argument that they will make. You know, Cody, this pastor who I wrote about, again, like someone I really felt for because he had kind of spiraled after his dad died. Like, he. He had been, you know, full of anger and. And grief and had turned away from religion altogether. But I think he was somebody who was trying to just kind of make sense of his world, make sense of what had happened to him. And he felt like he needed there to have been a purpose to what his dad was doing and to why his dad died. And so he just chose to kind of explain it as. Like it was. It was my dad's time and he keeps the legacy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And now I'm gonna keep it going. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

That's. It's. It's hard for people to. To sort of picture, but it's. It's real. There are videos. People can see them. Were there kids there when you went? Because. So my mom had to decide at one point. I don't know all the details, but there was a family. Someone had passed doing this, and there became a movement to charge someone. It might. I don't even know. Maybe it was Cody. I don't know. But I don't think it was Jamie. Okay. Jamie with some sort of crime for it. And it was ultimately going to be my mom that decided that. And I. And she went through. I remember I. She went through a very difficult process of trying to decide whether to do it. She ended up not. But I remember her saying to me at the. The time, if it was a child, I would feel differently.

[B]

Yeah. They had strict rules around kids. I believe you had to be 18 before you could handle a snake. And they kept kids pretty far away from where it was happening. I did hear people talking about when they were kids growing up in the church, like, they couldn't wait until they were old enough to handle snakes, which is its own kind of thing you gotta ask questions about. But it was like. To them, it was the mark of, like, now I'm a man.

[A]

Yeah. You know, now like a bar mitzvah, but for. Interesting. Yeah. Well, that's. Were you. Were you scared at all? I mean, like, are we.

[B]

I wasn't close enough to be scared. I was pretty far back.

[A]

So you didn't handle it?

[B]

No. Probably catch.

[A]

We now know you're a sinner, Jordan, if you would not. If you would not do it, the

[B]

signs did not follow.

[A]

I appreciate you in writing that article. When I read it, I appreciated the sensitivity with. You took it because it's. It's easy to sort of. These folks are. I mean, it's some of the poorest places in the United States. I mean, like, people can't. If you've never been there, you can't really fathom what it's like until you've actually gone. So I appreciated that.

[B]

Well, thank you. And, yeah, I mean, it felt important to just like, you know, these are people who are trying to kind of like make meaning of the world that they live in, just the way that all of us are. And, and whether you do that through religion or. Or through other things, like, I think we're all just trying to kind of make sense of the world around us, make sense of, like, where we fit into both the world and whatever may exist beyond it. And for these particular people, this incredibly dangerous thing was. Was part of the way that they did that. But I, I think it's important to just kind of like, try to understand what makes me like, this person that I'm writing about. So you like only focusing on the differences? I did like them, yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I agree, actually. Very kind. You know, my mother and father would sing at those churches, not on snake handling days, but on other days. And they are some of the kindest people that you'll ever. You'll ever meet. All right, so let's. We'll go from Lynn Bias to snake handling to your book. You interviewed four. You spent times with. With four different men, all of whom are. Have different stories. I want to focus on one. The. The. The individual that went to. To West Point and, and was the quarterback in six. Six. I took my mom to your event yesterday. And you know, I love my mother, but there are things I don't talk about my mother with. And you read your reading off, you started it by talking about the fact that this guy had an inferiority complex about penis size. And I had to look at my mother and go, yes, Mom, I did bring you to this. So I do want to thank you for that, Jordan, for you doing that.

[B]

I had to read that in front of my own mother.

[A]

Well, you chose to read it. You could have picked anything. You choose that page. That's fair.

[B]

That's fair. But, you know, it's. So this guy Gideon, who you mentioned is, you know, the book is about the way that we kind of think about our relationship. To masculinity and how it kind of shapes us over the course of our lives. And this is a guy who has kind of never had to think about it because he has always typified every single ideal. So he's six foot six, charming, handsome, smart. He's a baseball player, he's a pitcher, and he. He ends up at West Point and is someone who's just kind of, like, checked every benchmark of, like, who a man is supposed to be. But one of the lessons of the book is that you can have all of those things happening and, and still, at some point, you're going to be dealing with a certain.

[A]

And your wife can still cheat on you.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, he has. His wife has an affair with his commanding officer in the army. And the book opens with him, like, obsessed with who's bigger, him or me. And it's just this very, like, base level of insecurity that, like, I don't know, you know, all of us think about it at some point in some. I don't know if all of us fixated on. Fixate on it quite like he did, but it is.

[A]

But do you think he was trying to rationalize why it is his wife would leave him? Like. Like, it's like, let's pick something that I have no control over because it couldn't be me or it couldn't be. It, like, has to be something that, like, unfortunately, I got bad luck on. Is that, Is that, Is that what.

[B]

I think there's something to that? I mean, like, you know, he's. He's asking himself all these questions about, like, what are the other ways in which this guy might be. He just assumes this guy has to be better than him in some way. And which obviously human relationships don't work that way. Like, people are complicated. They make decisions for all sorts of reasons. People, when they cheat, they cheat for all sorts of reasons. It doesn't mean you are inherently inferior to the other person. But he's kind of. He can't fathom that the other guy is better in some other way, that he's, you know, funnier or more charming or, like, better at kind of, like, seeing and understanding this woman. He assumes that he has to be better in this, like, very kind of base level way, because that's just the. The easiest thing for his mind to kind of latch itself onto. And I. I don't know. I. I think it just kind of speaks to the ways in which we're always. Especially when we're younger and hopefully as we get Older. We grow out of this a little bit, but, like, that sense of comparison is just, like, kind of always, always with us. And, like, it can start when you're, again, that little kid on the playground, like, like, realizing, where do I fit in? And the pecking order, it can continue kind of through sports and in school and everything as you. As you get older. And with him, it kind of follows him into adulthood where he's like, what could possibly be deficient in me that is making the most painful thing in my life happen? Is it this. Is it this thing that I was born with? And again, you know, he's. He's doing just fine in. In this department, but the. The department that he's concerned about, but he's. He assumes that this guy must be bigger.

[A]

Do you. Okay, so at the event last night, you had a woman at the end who. Who asked her a question and said something that she was raising a boy as a single mom and sort of said, like, almost kind of, what do I need to do to make sure I don't raise a little monster? Which is what I think a lot of people are worried about in this era of this. A lot of stories of sort of lonely men who do. Because all four of your people you met have some degree of loneliness or desire to fit in or something like that. I mean, I'm not trying to make you an expert. You're very, very intent on saying you're not. But what do you say? Because I'm sure she's not the first person that has asked you something like that.

[B]

Yeah, you know, I. And I. I don't want to speak to exactly what her motivations were for. For. I think she was just someone who's raising a. A boy on her own and just wants the best for him. But I do think that sometimes in our culture there is this, like, impulse to look at boys and think that they could be potential future monsters, which makes me feel pretty sad. I mean, like, that's such a limiting, like, way to think about a young child. And now, obviously, it comes from a place that's rooted in, you know, a reality of men doing a lot of, like, violent and brutal things. And many men, like, having an anger that they don't know what to do with, and they take it out on other people and they cause real harm. But I do think that, like, you know, I think in our culture sometimes there can be a lot of anger toward, like, men as a category, and it's something that I've encountered time and again while working on this book. But I do think that, like, it's hard to have that same anger for a little boy. And, like, all of us were little boys at some point and, like, we all were, like, all of the stuff that people get frustrated with about, like, the ways in which we can deal with anger or the ways in which we can deal with insecurity, the ways in which we can kind of harm other people at times. Like, that stuff is learned. It's not ingrained. And so I think that, like, you know, thinking about the ways in which boys are raised, thinking about the things that we're. We're teaching them, thinking about ways in which we can teach them that, like, we see the goodness in them, but also holding them accountable to, like, be the version of themselves that is good and caring and loving toward other people is really, really important. And, And I think it's important for boys to kind of see examples of men who are living lives that are, you know, connected to other people, that are, like, with relationships, that. That's. They're. They're fully invested in. In on every side and, and see that, you know, that there. There are so many different kinds of possibilities for their lives. And so, yeah, I, I just found myself kind of thinking about all of those things last night.

[A]

When you, when you see the world of sort of bro podcast, which have kind of taken over a lot of the. And the phrase the manosphere. So when you, Dave Portnoy, Tony Hinchcliffe, you pick the person, your reaction to their rise is what,

[B]

Unsurprising. You know, I, I think that there is something about. They give permission for men and boys to kind of indulge the like, kind of like, like basest pieces of themselves. They. They give, like, permission to, like, you know, be someone. We all have impulses to being a little bit crass. We all have impulses to, you know, want to be, like, more powerful than other people, maybe putting other people down. And they, they kind of like, by them doing it very, very loudly, it signals to whoever is listening, like, it's okay for you to do that too. And, And. But at the same time, like, I think that, like, and I don't know, I don't listen too much to, to those guys, so I don't necessarily want to speak too directly to them individually. But I do think that, like, that version of reality and version of like, who you can kind of imagine like a man to be is, like, so limiting. And like, if you were always kind of indulging the parts of yourself that only want to kind of, like, you know, belittle other people, make yourself feel more powerful. It's going to lead to a pretty, like, hollow and unfulfilling life. Like, if you are someone who wants a life with like, you know, a marriage, with children who you care about and who care about you, with friends who you care about, who are invested in your life, with work that you are, like, you know, deeply connected to and where you feel like what you're doing has meaning in the world. You know, any combination of those things, like, those things are available to you and, and I think that, like, signaling to young men that, you know, the version of yourself that you can be is a version of yourself that is, like, you know, connected to a broader community that cares about other people and is cared about by other people is really, really important. And I think that that gets lost when it's all of this, like, kind of performative, like, aggro, bro type stuff. That, again, ultimately just feels like limiting to me.

[A]

Yeah, well, I agree. And a lot of those folks in private aren't necessarily nearly as bro tastic as, like, they actually can be kind. And you go, why don't you show that side sometimes as well? Jordan Ritter Khan. The book is American Men. You can see his writing on the ringer. I recommend the Lynn Bias podcast. I listened to it when you put that out. It's been many years, but I did really enjoy it. Nice to finally meet you and good luck with the book and the rest of your tour.

[B]

Thank you so much for having me, Matt. This was a blast. Really enjoyed talking to you.

[A]

We will see you later here on Interrupted.