015: Jon Vroman | The TRUTH About Fatherhood High Performers Learn Too Late The Matt King Show

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Matt King Show – Episode 015

Guest: Jon Vroman
Title: The TRUTH About Fatherhood High Performers Learn Too Late
Release Date: June 4, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this impactful episode, host Matt King sits down with Jon Vroman, founder of Front Row Dads and former charity leader, to explore the often-unspoken realities of fatherhood among high-performing men. The conversation centers on the tension between ambition in business and presence at home, honest reflections on people-pleasing, intergenerational wounds, and the transformative journey of redefining success as a family man first. The episode stands out for its raw vulnerability, practical strategies for intentional fatherhood, and a compelling challenge to high performers to own their presence, not just their achievements.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The High Performer's Dilemma: Business vs. Family

• Opening Reflection
  Jon and Matt discuss how ambition often drives men to give their best hours to work, leaving family with their leftovers. Jon shares the pivotal realization that changed his life:

  "My best hours got the work because that's what I was trained for. And when I had kids, I did the same thing. All in service of my family." (Jon, 00:04)

• The Excuse of “Providing”
  The hosts dissect the narrative that working hard is “for the family,” recognizing it is often an escape to where they feel competent.

  “We did that in the beginning until we realized that was really just an excuse to go do the thing that we love to do, that we were used to doing where we feel significant and powerful and impactful, because kids are really, really hard.” (Jon, 00:31)

• Moment Maker for the World vs. Home
  Jon recalls his wife Tatiana confronting him:

  “She said, you're more of a moment maker for the rest of the world than you are for our family. And she was right.” (Jon, 00:57)

2. Transforming Priorities: Family First

• Front Row Dads Origin
  Jon’s realization led to reprioritizing family and founding Front Row Dads:

  "I realized I was a businessman who happened to have a family, and I wanted to be a family man who happened to have a business." (Jon, 01:22)

• Structural Change: Calendar Rework
  His advice: put family first in your daily structure.

  "If you look at my calendar right now... it'll say 7 to 9 kids, and then 9 to 11. Mind, body, spirit. That is the first part of my day. And business has grown by 20% every year." (Jon, 04:04)

• The Environment Supports You
  Jon shares initial worries about resistance to his new priorities but found people respected his boundaries.

  “Most of the shock and disappointment was followed very quickly with, good for you, man. Yeah, way to have boundaries, way to... prioritize.” (Jon, 07:17)

3. People Pleasing, Pain & Authentic Boundaries

• Jon examines his journey from people-pleasing to holding boundaries, spurred by burnout and honest reckoning.

  “I very much wanted people to approve of me... I’ve learned to be in the discomfort in a way that I can, like, sustain it.” (Jon, 07:35)

• Personal anecdote: the pain and "early grave" from prioritizing everyone else until he broke down and reset:

  “I was burning the candle at both ends I was falling apart physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, in all ways. And I was literally giving myself into an early grave.” (Jon, 08:25)

4. Parenting, Negative Self-Talk & Intergenerational Growth

• Breaking Cycles through Awareness
  Matt and Jon discuss examining their own traumas to prevent passing them to their children.

  "My answer is men's work. Primarily, it was through safe conversations with conscious, committed men... when you create a container... and get right to the big pieces. Something cool can emerge from that." (Jon, 15:47)

• Grace and Forgiveness
  On working through recognized shortcomings:

  “Through the awareness, then you can, like, choose the different response... A lot of it is grace, Forgiveness, Patience.” (Jon, 18:03)

• Helping Kids with Self-Talk
  Concrete tool: morning affirmations tailored (even written with AI) for his sons to set positive internal dialogue.

  “Ocean, who's 10, has a checklist... and [reading] an affirmation... but he has to read it out loud... over breakfast, I'm cooking eggs, he's reading his affirmation out loud. It's beautiful.” (Jon, 22:12)

• Open Dialogue as Prevention
  Encourages age-appropriate honesty and staying engaged:

  “Parents miss the boat... they're afraid to get into these big subjects. What we hear and what we see in the data is that kids actually want you to push a little bit... to challenge them.” (Jon, 25:23)

5. Marriage: Growth, Challenge & Authenticity

• Openly discusses the ongoing work in his marriage, the importance of not gaslighting kids about family issues, and the dual nature of partnership as a source of both joy and “activation.”

  “Our partners are uniquely designed to piss us off, to trigger us... If we lean into that, there's tremendous growth.” (Jon, 30:28)

• On modeling emotional awareness for his children during conflict:

  “When I am more conscious, father, I will pull him aside... ‘Hey, buddy, I just want you to know mom and I are in a little bit of a rupture right now. We’re working through it. It's not you.'" (Jon, 34:14)

6. Redefining Discipline & Legacy

• Discipline Methods
  Jon combines incentives and consequences tailored to each child, using real-world models (like paying his son for grades).

  “If you do this, you can achieve this. I will pay you for this... I'll give incentives... I'll give consequences.” (Jon, 41:36)

• People Pleasing vs. Healthy Boundaries in Parenting

  “Somebody said, when a child gets a phone... remind Tiger that you don't have a phone. I have a phone that I'm letting you use.” (Jon, 39:31)

• Legacy as Energy, Not Name

  “Legacy is energy more than it is about...having your name written somewhere... if we do the right thing in any given moment... we put our head on the pillow every night and feel good about who we were... legacy lives now.” (Jon, 44:14)

7. Masculinity, Intuition & Community

• Spirituality without Dogma
  Jon blends spirituality and personal development, seeing God and “life force” as interchangeable, valuing intuitive connection over religious dogma.

  “God, spirit, life force, source, right. All the names... it means the same thing to me... I'm communing with spirit.” (Jon, 47:25)

• From Mind to Body Wisdom

  “As they get older and they get more attuned to their body, they're like, oh, my stomach feels a certain way, my shoulders feel a certain way... that's what a full body Yes means.” (Jon, 53:40)

• Front Row Dads Community

  “This is a community of men who want to be. Who choose to be family men with businesses, not businessmen with families.” (Jon, 61:39)

• On Growth and Engaged Fatherhood

  “What a father is missing is their own personal... expansion of capacity and range... if you grow and engage, that's where all of the magic happens.” (Jon, 55:07)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On People Pleasing & Boundaries:

  “I think I had to feel the pain of what it was like to sell my soul out to please somebody and then feel the pain of that.” (Jon, 08:28)

• On Happiness Evolution:

  “I felt happy when I was having a glass of wine with my friends... I also feel real happy now... journaling, meditating. Both happy.” (Jon, 04:40)

• On Modeling Vulnerability for Children:

  “I want my kids to have a hundred amazing uncles in their life, people that I poured into.” (Jon, 62:56)

• On Judgment vs. Curiosity:

  “I think that there's very unhealthy pieces of Christianity... very unhealthy elements of somebody who has no religion. I can see pros and cons for all of it.” (Jon, 49:44)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00-01:30 – The myth of “doing it for the family” and the emotional cost of imbalance
• 04:04-05:31 – Tangible scheduling shifts and their impact on happiness and business
• 07:17-08:28 – The pain and growth from breaking people-pleasing patterns
• 15:47-18:03 – Discovering and breaking intergenerational trauma through “men’s work”
• 22:12-25:23 – Practical strategies for family dialogue and affirmations
• 30:28-34:14 – Navigating marriage as a catalyst for personal growth and honest parenting
• 41:36-43:34 – Incentives as discipline: paying for grades
• 44:14-46:28 – Redefining legacy as energetic presence, not ancestral memory
• 53:21-54:50 – Leaning into intuition and full-body decision-making
• 55:07-57:21 – The two greatest failings of fathers today: engagement and doing the work
• 61:39-65:01 – What Front Row Dads is and why intentional brotherhood matters

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Tone & Language

The episode’s tone is unapologetically honest, reflective, at times rawly vulnerable, but always practical and hopeful. The language is direct—Jon and Matt do not shy away from the complexities and contradictions of fatherhood, masculinity, and legacy. There is a spirit of curiosity, experimentation, and growth throughout, inviting listeners to challenge their own habits and definitions of success.

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Final Thoughts

This conversation decimates the myth of the high-achieving provider as the ultimate father and provides a roadmap for realignment: family first, presence over perfection, and the courage to ask hard questions. For entrepreneurs and fathers seeking to expand not just their wealth but their legacy of love and character, Jon Vroman’s insights and stories offer both a wake-up call and genuine encouragement.

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For more on this topic, and to connect with a brotherhood of intentional fathers, check out the Front Row Dads community and tune in to more episodes of The Matt King Show.

Transcript

[Matt]

You say you're doing it for them, but you're gone before breakfast and you're too tired by dinner.

[John Vrome]

My best hours got the work because that's what I was trained for. And when I had kids, I did the same thing. All in service of my family.

[Matt]

They're asking for five minutes, and you're buried in another strategy call.

[John Vrome]

I was burning the candle at both ends. I was falling apart physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, in all ways. And I was literally giving myself into an early grave.

[Matt]

You call it providing, but maybe it's just the one place you still feel in control.

[John Vrome]

The argument was, I'm doing this for my family. And then what has come to the light for myself and many people in our community is like, we did that in the beginning until we realized that was really just an excuse to go do the thing that we love to do, that we were used to doing where we feel significant and powerful and impactful, because kids are really, really hard.

[Matt]

Also, it's easier to impress a room of strangers than sit in a mess at home.

[John Vrome]

And that's what led to Tatiana. After I had, like, landed my biggest speaking gig and the charity was doing great, and I had written this book about moment making for other people. She said, you're more of a moment maker for the rest of the world than you are for our family. And she was right.

[Matt]

And one day, she'll stop waiting, they'll stop asking, and you'll ask yourself, what do they remember?

[John Vrome]

And that's what turned into front row dads. Because I realized I was a businessman who happened to have a family, and I wanted to be a family man who happened to have a business.

[Matt]

This is John Vrome. One of the things that I've been wrestling with right now is the drive and the ambition for business and the drive and ambition for husbandry or fatherhood. They're, like, very different, big time. And it's hard to figure out, okay, how do you harness that same drive, that same initiative, and put it into your kids?

[John Vrome]

But.

[Matt]

But you can't. I haven't been able to show up the same way in a business setting with my family and achieve success.

[John Vrome]

Yeah, it is extremely challenging. I started talking about this nine years ago, and the conversation's not gotten stale. It's like. It's just. It's always present. It's always, you know, taking multiple priorities and asking, what needs love now.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

And how much.

[Matt]

Which is what you just did with a speaking event.

[John Vrome]

Yes.

[Matt]

20,000 bucks. And, like, I don't know if I want to Be a full body. Yes.

[John Vrome]

Yeah.

[Matt]

That's so cool.

[David]

That's so cool.

[Matt]

I mean, one of. One of the things I struggle with, especially with business and the kids, is the energy.

[John Vrome]

Right.

[Matt]

Because for some reason, somebody created that the work day is first, and then the family day is second in. In our day.

[John Vrome]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And so you go to work and you, like, deplete all of your energy.

[John Vrome]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And then I heard from Jesse Itzel, you're never too tired for your kids, which I love and I try to show up for. But then, dad, will you play Barbies? Dad, we go on the trampoline. I'm like, dad just wants to sit for, like, two minutes. But I don't ever answer that way. But that's where I struggle is, like, the energy balance, because it's. It's tough.

[John Vrome]

Yeah. I went through a season for sure in the beginning where my best hours got the work, because that's what I was trained for all through my 20s was like that principle of, where are your best hours? Let's grind on the highest priority activity. And when I had kids, I did the same thing, all in service of my family. So the argument was, I'm doing this for my family. And then what has come to the light for myself and many people in our community is like, we did that in the beginning until we realized that was really just an excuse to go do the thing that we love to do, that we were used to doing where we feel significant and. And powerful and impactful because kids are really, really hard also. So we kind of hide at work. Ryan Dice and I just chatted about this on my podcast. Like, he had the same experience. Right. We're kind of hiding at work, but then you change things. And now if you look at my calendar right now on my phone, it'll say 7 to 9 kids, and then 9 to 11. Mind, body, spirit.

[David]

Wow.

[John Vrome]

So that is the first part of my day. And business has grown by 20% every year. It seems that we still are able to pull it off. And I'm definitely a better dad now than I've ever been, because it's the first thing in the calendar.

[Matt]

Would you say you're happier?

[John Vrome]

Absolutely. And not at all. No. For real? That's my real answer. Absolutely. And maybe not, because when there's some pieces I look back on when I was younger and I'm like, oh, dude, that was the happiest I was. So I was level 10 happy.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

There's a level 10 happy that comes with that. Like, ignorance is bliss. Asterisks along with it. And I'm much happier now through intentionality. Right. Earlier, there's almost this, like, stepping into the world for the first time. I saw this for the first time, felt this for the first time, did this for the first time. A lot of excitement that comes from that. And now my happiness feels more sustainable. You know, I felt happy when I was having a glass of wine with my friends and, you know. Right. And staying out till 4am Definitely felt happy. I also feel real happy now. Going to bed at like 9:30, totally sober, waking up in the morning, journaling, meditating. Both happy.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

More sustainable happy now and mature happy now.

[Matt]

Would you say your happiness is more programmed? Like you've programmed your happiness into your calendar, into your life, into your day, or is it just still authentic and raw?

[John Vrome]

It's both. And I think that there's a yes. And in almost every scenario, there's a truth on the other side of a truth, and there's. Yeah, leave it at that.

[Matt]

From, from your perspective, you went on this, this journey, right. Of like, hey, I'm gonna totally transform my calendar, my life, I'm gonna pour into my kids first, My business is gonna come second. How many people met you with resistance when you brought that concept forward?

[John Vrome]

Meaning in the community or.

[Matt]

Well, in the community or in your business or in your family or like, you know, dads, moms.

[John Vrome]

Very few. For the most part, it was applauded.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

For the most part it was supported. You know, I think I can recall specific times when I would decline something and people would respond like, holy shit, man, that is awesome that you have that boundary. I remember I was invited to a really big show or a speech or something really important. Right. And I had responded, I only have these times. And the person was kind of taken back by the fact that I was not jumping at the opportunity to literally go seven days a week, whatever you want.

[Matt]

Right.

[John Vrome]

Even recently, our mutual friend David, there was somebody that invited me to connect. This person apparently is, you know, ultra high net worth. And my assistant responded declining it. And David was like, wow, man. Like, that's. That's discipline.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

And I had to sit with this okayness of disappointing people or shocking people. But most of the shock and disappointment was followed very quickly with, good for you, man. Yeah, way to have boundaries, way to, Way to prioritize.

[Matt]

But you didn't really give a shit what people thought.

[John Vrome]

I do give a shit what people think, and I don't want to always. I've had. I'm, I'm for sure A people pleaser. I have a part of me that is a big people pleaser and we could do the whole like, where did that come from in my childhood and why did I become that way? But I very much wanted people to approve of me, to love me, to think I was great. I wanted everybody to be happy. I don't like disappointing people and even today I don't like it when people are mad at me. But I'm willing to stand in that fire now. I'm much more likely to say or do something where somebody will be upset with me and I'll sit with that. But what happens is I'm. I'm still uncomfortable, but I've learned to be in the discomfort in a way that I can like sustain it.

[Matt]

What did it take for you to get there?

[John Vrome]

I think in, in the people pleasing world, I think I had to. I had to feel the pain of what it was like to sell my soul out to please somebody and then feel the pain of that. And I'll give you a great example. It may not be the best example, but it's what comes to mind. So in 20 2006, I started front Row foundation, right? And this charity helps kids and adults who have a life threatening illness to see the live event of their dreams from the front row. So if somebody googled that, they would probably still see our website. But it closed down about a year and a half ago. I closed it down intentionally. And here's why. That mission started with a lot. It was pure, it was love, it was significance. I want to make a difference in the world. I want to help people. A lot came from a really good place. A lot of it also came from a place of like, I want people to know I'm a good person. I need people to know I'm a good person. I want my kids to know I'm a good person. I had this vision of like my kids growing up being like, you know, my dad started this charity called Front Row foundation and just feeling so much pride in their father because he did good things for people. I also would like work my ass off, not get much sleep. I sacrificed financially. I was a hero in every way I could be. To say, look, look at how much I'm not making money and how much I'm giving to charity. Aren't I such a good person? And I would do that in a way to try to heal my own traumas, my own wounds. And so. But what was happening was I was really hurting myself. I was burning the candle at both ends I was falling apart physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, in all ways. And I was literally giving myself into an early grave. And that's what I mean, where I was people pleasing, trying to make everybody happy. But I was also experiencing the burn from that. And, and that's what led to Tatiana after I had like landed my biggest speaking gig and the charity was doing great and I had written this book about moment making for other people. She said, you're more of a moment maker for the rest of the world than you are for our family. And she was right. And that's what turned into front row dads. Because I realized I was a businessman who happened to have a family and I wanted to be a family man who happened to have a business.

[Matt]

How did you respond when she said that?

[John Vrome]

I don't remember exactly how I responded, but I probably was hurt, I probably got defensive. I probably tried to justify my behaviors. I'm a good person. I'm doing this for you, for the kids, for our family, because I'm trying to make a difference in the world. And that was my truth. So I was standing on that. But it didn't take long for me to get the message. And deep down inside I knew she was right again. I was kind of hiding in the passion from doing the hard work of leaning in with kids because there's a lot of insecurity that shows up with being a dad. And, you know, what do I do in every given moment? Those are, and they're high stake decisions. It feels like.

[Matt]

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[John Vrome]

So I can buy you more toys.

[Matt]

But then I now I'm like, spending the day, like, peeling back the layers of that onion, like, why do I go to work? And like, what's the true answer to. To my son when he asked me that question? Yeah, because it's not to buy more toys.

[John Vrome]

Yeah, that's right.

[Matt]

And then you start looking at trauma, and you alluded to this. You start to think about, okay, what traumas do I have? Because that's kind of the thing everybody's talking about right now. And then you go, well, what traumas am I imprinting on my children?

[John Vrome]

For sure.

[Matt]

And so how did you go about discovering your traumas and the traumas that you didn't want to imprint on your children?

[John Vrome]

My answer is men's work. Primarily, it was through safe conversations with conscious, committed men, guys who were willing to have the kind of conversation that you don't normally have, like having a beer on your buddy's deck on a weekend. The conversations can be great in those ways. I've had great conversations with friends. But when you create a container, you build a room full of men who are like, we're actually going to go straight to the most difficult questions and we're going to all agree to skip past the topical bullshit, you know, how's the weather, you know, type of stuff, and get right to the big pieces. Something cool can emerge from that. And I think there's lots of ways that you can get there in the group settings or in the one to one conversations. Countless ways, you know, and we could talk about all of them. But that's where it happens when, you know, when two men are like, let's find out. You know, again, somebody who's very close to me recently came to me and said that he had an interest in men's work in a small group setting so that he could find out what's really in there. And this is a person who has lots of friends, lots of connections, lots of opportunity to do the work. But there was still this quest of, like, if I had a small group of people, like a handful of people that I fully trusted, and that's a big part, because what I hear a lot from very successful men who have lots of friends, lots of male friends, even significance and influence in the world is they're like, I don't know that I fully trust men. Like, they still might be after My business. They still might be talking shit behind my back. Maybe they might be after my wife, they might be after whatever. There's this something within them. We're like, I don't know if I can fully, fully trust this man. But when we find it, that's when we start to uncover the deepest work. It's that plus many other ways, but that's the way I have found it.

[Matt]

And then once you identify it and you see it, how do you go about fixing it? Because it's one thing to recognize it, it's one thing to acknowledge it, but then it's a whole nother thing to go, okay, now let's go do the work on it.

[John Vrome]

Well, the first way for me, and I only speak from my experience, is that when I see it, sometimes there's actually a bit of mourning or grief around it. Like, when you see it, you're like, oh, man, look at all the ways that that's held me back. Look at all the ways that I've. I've projected my trauma and my, you know, these. These wounds onto my children, onto my spouse, onto my business, whatever it is. So there's a mourning, there's a real grief with that. And from there, I think it's creating new habits. Hey, how am I going to. Now that I'm conscious that I do this, now that I'm conscious that I have this, what would a remedy look like? What does health look like? And part of that is just acceptance. It's like your ego. You figure out that it's there, you're like, holy shit. This has been running the show a lot of my life. I'm not going to get rid of it. You don't kill an ego, but you learn to be like, it's there. And I can see when it shows up. So through the awareness, then you can, like, choose the different response. It's like that old Viktor Frankl between stimulus and response. There's a space, and in that space, we have a choice. That's really what it is. And so when, you know, when I would discover a trauma and I would see its pattern in my life, and I would try to create routines that would support maybe the minimization of the impact of that trauma. I would see the. The gap between activated traumas and how I respond shortening, I would see myself like, oh, that used to take me a week to get back on track, and now it takes me a day. Used to take me a day, now it takes me an hour. Right. And so a lot of it is grace Forgiveness, Patience. As impatient as we can be as men, builders, lead, domino, get shit done. You know, we have to in many ways with these things. Just be tender and soft and forgiving and realize that it's not going to likely change overnight.

[Matt]

Well, and what I hear you saying is you've gotten very good at giving yourself grace and yourself forgiveness. Have you always been that way or has it taken a long time?

[John Vrome]

No, man, I, like many other men, I'm so tough on myself. My internal dialogue can be super negative and it can be tough. And when I became aware of that too, even like as a young man in my early 20s going to a Tony Robbins event, first learning about limiting beliefs, I'm like, holy shit, this has been running my life and it was amazing. And then now I'm 49 and I'm still uncovering these. So I'm much nicer to myself these days. I'm much softer with myself and other people. You know, I'm much more compassionate and understanding when, you know, and it's not always easy for me because I can still be very judgmental about people and myself. But the question of like, what is this person protecting? Had this conversation with a front row dad yesterday about a man who we both saw as being very arrogant, right, and intense in his arrogance. And the question came up of what is that man's arrogance protecting? That's a beautiful question. And when you start to see that underneath anger is really fear. So instead of that person just being angry, you're like, what are they scared of? Oh, they're scared of not being enough. They're scared that if they don't win this thing, that they're gonna literally fall apart and their kids won't eat and their marriage will fall apart. Like they're afraid. And then when you see somebody as afraid or when you see the little one inside somebody. So instead of the ass kicking Matt that just crushes it in life, like the 10 year old Matt, let's look.

[Matt]

At the little boy.

[John Vrome]

The little boy that's so powerful, man for others and ourselves.

[Matt]

And then how do you, with, with two awesome young kids, help them manage or mitigate their negative self talk like, how are you helping them with that dialogue?

[John Vrome]

Well, one is in a very simple and practical way. Ocean, who's 10, has a checklist, as does Tiger at 15. And there's like things they have to do in the morning and things they have to do in the evening in order to earn privileges. So as an example, they don't get access to any screens until this Checklist is done. It's that simple. Do the checklist earn your screens. Cause that's what they want. That's what they all want. Sugars, screens, life of a child at times. And so they know that they don't get to do those things unless they earn them. And one of the things that Ocean does is he reads an affirmation. And I'll write that affirmation using AI now by feeding. Here's who my son is. Here's what I see. Here are his strengths. Here's what I'd like to see him develop in himself. And then I write the affirmation, and I have him, and he reads it, but he has to read it out loud. And I tell him, you have to read it out loud. I have to hear you read it.

[Matt]

For the check mark.

[John Vrome]

Yes. So he has to read it out loud. I have to hear him read it. So it just happens, like over breakfast, I'm cooking eggs, he's reading his affirmation out loud. It's beautiful. And then I'll, you know, occasionally rewrite that and hang a new one up. I have the same thing for Tiger, and I think those are some of the ways that we can help with the inner dialogue and also talking with our kids. So, Tiger, at 15, I'm doing things that I haven't done with Ocean yet, because he's 15. I'll give you one that happened yesterday, by the way. We're in the car, and I said to Tiger, hey, imagine you're an adult and you're a dad, whether or not you have a family. Just imagine that you are. And let's say you're roughly my age. What is it that you think now, at 15, looking at my life, you're like, I want that, that my dad has. I hope I have that at 49. If I'm a family man with kids. And what about my life? Do you look at and say, no way? I do? Never. Because I said, with my dad, I had the same things. I was like, oh, I love my dad when he did this. And I. Working out was like one of the things my dad did. He was so disciplined. He was so good at that. I love that. And I was like, I think I anchored in, like, I'm going to be strong like my dad. I'm going to be fit like my dad. He modeled that beautifully. Another one that I didn't want was that he would often choose cleaning over hanging out, organizing the garage, organizing things, you know, that was more important or felt more important. So I was like what you said earlier, when my kids ask to play or do something, I'm going to attempt to lean in and do that, even if it's for five minutes or 10 minutes or whatever, I'm going to attempt to say yes more than my dad did. But this beautiful thing led to this conversation for Tiger. And what I'm ultimately trying to do is get into his head about what he sees that he either wants or wants to avoid. And to me, that bringing awareness to things, having, like, open conversations, is the answer to understanding ourselves. And so I'm getting back to the question, or I think the topic at hand, which is, how are our beliefs formed and are we talking about them? Because I think one of the most dangerous things is silence. And parents miss the boat with this with their kids, where they're afraid to talk to their kids. They're afraid to get into these big subjects. And I think that one of the things I see more often than not is parents don't push enough. They don't lean in enough. They're actually afraid to discipline. They're afraid to engage because they're like, well, I don't want to push my kid, or I don't. But they. They do the opposite, which is to disengage. And what we hear and what we see in the data is that kids actually want you to push a little bit or a lot at times. They want you to care. They want you to see them. They want you to challenge them, to hold them to a high standard. They want to know, do you see me for who I am? Do you have a vision for my life, you know, and are you willing to engage with me around it?

[Matt]

So what did he say?

[John Vrome]

He said one of the things he loves is that I have a lot of freedom. He said, I see your life. If you wanted to hop on a plane tomorrow and go to Colorado and see a friend, you can. You can do anything you want with anyone you want at any time that you want. And he's right, by the way, and I love that he sees that. So he's most attracted to the freedom that I've created through. Through business and through the way that we've chosen to live.

[Matt]

And then what didn't he like?

[John Vrome]

Well, I had.

[Matt]

He.

[John Vrome]

He was hesitant to tell me.

[David]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, why was he hesitant?

[John Vrome]

I think that the way I interpret it. And I'm only guessing, right, because he didn't tell me exactly. But I imagine that as a kid, that's probably a hard thing to tell your dad.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

Hey, here's what I don't like about you, he's like, I'd rather avoid that fight. I'd rather not piss him off. Maybe if I tell him this, he'll. He'll. He'll remember this and, like, punish me for it. Somehow I'd imagine that's what going through his brain. And I tried to create as much safety for him to say it. So I kind of leaned into a couple of things that I thought. Thought he might say. I said, I'm guessing that maybe when you look at mom and I. And by the way, what I'm about to say next is well documented on my podcast and many others, is that the most challenging thing I have experienced in my life over the last two decades is my marriage. And that's not a poke at my wife. It means that our traumas, our wounds, our belief systems have activated each other's. And so, because we are forward, outspoken, you know, pretty vibrant people, we are not too, you know, introverts, like, passing in the hallway quietly. We are pretty fiery people. And as a result of that, that. That creates a fiery situation that he's seen. So what I said was, I'm betting that you're looking at my, you know, mom and I saying, I don't know if I would want to replicate what looks like a very intense relationship. And he kind of laughed, and I said, so maybe it's that. But I also don't want to gaslight my son.

[David]

Right.

[John Vrome]

I don't want to gaslight my kids. I would like to say things that I believe are true. And I think a lot of parents do gaslight their kids. Hey, how are you? I'm fine. And they know you're not. And so what you're telling them is, don't trust your compass. Don't trust your internal guidance system. Your body actually told you that dad wasn't okay, mom wasn't okay, or the two of them weren't okay together, and then the parent, because they don't want to involve the kid in the problem, goes, we're great. Everything's fine. And you're basically saying, don't trust yourself. You read the room right? But don't trust yourself.

[Matt]

But don't you think, as men, we have the tendency to do that in every circle of our life?

[John Vrome]

Not just with our kids, for sure.

[Matt]

Even our spouse.

[John Vrome]

Yeah. And there's a. And the beautiful part of that, Matt, is that I think that comes from a protection piece. You're like, I'm protecting you from this reality. I'm protecting you from the truth, I'm protecting you. So I'm just going to like stiffen up my spine, right. And drive my way through this and not have to involve you in it. And at times I believe that is a good move. I don't think you have to dump all of your inner thoughts on other people. I don't think you need to involve your kids and everything. I, I think there is a healthy situation here that needs like a real check in to say what is the right amount, what's the right balance? And I think if you trust that and you equally give both sides of like, handle it on my own or share it. And here's a beautiful question, by the way, on what we're talking about now. This theme came up in a conversation with one of my members yesterday who's extremely wise and has such great emotional intelligence. He said, to what degree do I involve others in my healing? It's a beautiful question because sometimes the answer is, contain yourself, sit on the couch, talk to God, put your hand on your heart, ask yourself what you think. You don't have to say everything out loud. You don't write like you can just hold it. And on the other one, you don't have to hold it all. Yeah, you know, say it out loud. Talk to your kids, talk to your wife, talk to your buddies. It's a very challenging place to know what to say, how much to say, what to reveal. That's what we're all wrestling with.

[Matt]

Do you think that trauma and the fieriness between you and Tatiana is what brought you guys together originally?

[John Vrome]

This is a fascinating question because you could argue that our soul's contract, like we needed each other to heal. I needed to do and say the things that were going to activate her at the highest level. And I do subscribe to this idea that our partners are uniquely designed to piss us off, to trigger us to touch the buttons that only they can touch in the ways that they touch them. If we lean into that, there's tremendous growth. We can also run away from it. And I'm not here to say whether somebody should stay or go in any situation. I think there are very clear cases where somebody is designed to go and for things to end. And there are very clear cases where it's like, hey, man, learn from that. So, yes, our spouses are so uniquely designed to challenge us. And I think that we were destined for each other. I don't know that what's going to happen in the future. I mean, honestly, based on a text exchange that was happening in the car, when I saw you before I was getting out, I would say the future is uncertain.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

We're in the middle of like a very intense rupture right now in our relationship. Real time as we're talking. This is a very intense time.

[Matt]

But what's beautiful about that is you're open about it. So many people would come into this conversation, be like, my marriage is great. My wife's amazing. Everything is good.

[John Vrome]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But you know that the healing happens on the other side of the awareness, the talking about it, the feeling about it. So when you're going through that, which we all go through, regardless of how great your relationship is, there's going to be fights. How do you balance showing up still as the father you need to show up as and the businessman you need to show up as with that weighing on your heart and on your mind?

[John Vrome]

Dude, so hard. I just got to say that from the start. It's so hard. I said to my team this week, I posted in our Slack channel to the staff, I said, hey, guys, got a few things that are weighing on my heart right now. I'm not at my best. I'm going to ask for your grace, your support. I won't be as responsive or engaged right now as I navigate what's a difficult season for me, which may last hours or days. I'm not quite sure. Just know that I'm giving myself, my family and you all the best I can. So if it's just not up to my normal standard, you know why. And that's it. I just left it at that. And our team responds, responded, and has always responded beautifully to that type of honesty.

[Matt]

Well, but you never apologized for it.

[John Vrome]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You didn't apologize for not showing up. You just said, this is what I'm going through. Let me tell you what's going on because you don't need to apologize for what you're going through.

[John Vrome]

Exactly.

[Matt]

But we often, as people feel this desire, probably from the people pleasing thing to say, hey, I'm so sorry I'm not as responsive. I'm going through something right now.

[John Vrome]

Yeah. Yeah. The apologizing piece of all this is very interesting and we could spend a lot of time talking about that, this, you know, I'm sorry. And also just sitting with the okayness around things not being great and asking for what you need from people. I think that's the other piece. I do it with my kids. I actually sent a message to my son today and I was like, he, things are a little tense. I just want you to know, so you don't take it personally. Because what will happen is I'm in it with Tatiana. We're disagreeing. I've got big energy. And then Tiger walks in the room and he's like, can we go driving? And I'm like, no driving today.

[Matt]

You know?

[John Vrome]

And it's like he's kind of like, what did I do? And I at times don't even have it in me to tell him that it's not his fault. I'm just stewing in my own emotion. And other times, when I am more conscious, father, I will pull him aside, I'll put my hand on his chest and his heart, you know, And I'm like, hey, buddy, I just want you to know mom and I are in a little bit of a rupture right now. We're working through it. It's not you. So if I'm short with you, if she's short with you, if you feel the tension, just know that this is not about you. You might get like, the collateral damage, you know, effect of it.

[David]

Yeah.

[Matt]

The shock.

[John Vrome]

But please know you're a great human. I love you.

[Matt]

How does he respond?

[John Vrome]

He is so. Tiger is so emotionally intelligent.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

It's incredible. I could talk about him and how wise he is in spirit, in his heart and. Yeah, man, he's. He's. He's awesome.

[Matt]

And then what about the 10 year old? Because that's a different conversation. He's not quite probably ready for some of those.

[John Vrome]

Yeah. I attempt to be as. I think it's honesty.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

Age appropriate.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

And only a dad or a mom would know what's the right thing to say in any given moment. Because you know, your child, you know, you. You know, if you trust, you'll mess up. By the way. You'll probably be like, Matt, too much. Not enough, whatever. But ocean. I'm. I'm. I'm honest with also, but different honest.

[David]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Because he's 10.

[John Vrome]

That's it, man. You've got to. There is a. There is a beautiful truth to me about, like, maintaining some level of innocence, but also not putting your head in the sand and recognizing that this is a human who actually might get more than you think that they're getting. And so there is like, speaking up to the child. Do you remember when it was a gobundance event? I'm not sure if you were there, but I was being interviewed and somebody asked me about. There was a story of Tiger climbing the rock wall.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

Do you remember this?

[Matt]

I do.

[John Vrome]

Somebody literally just brought this up to me recently from that event. And I won't tell the whole story now, but what I'll say is that there was this moment when Tiger, when he was younger, was attempting to climb a rock wall. I didn't think he could do it. The guy who was like the, you know, putting the harness on of the people to climb the rock wall, he did believe in Tiger, and Tiger was able to actually do it. The moral of the story was that I saw Tiger, like, I remembered him yesterday. And this guy saw Tiger with a fresh set of eyes, like, what he was, what his possibil, what his potential was. And it reminded me that when we're around people a lot, we can trap them in this version of. We talked about this prior to hitting record about brand and how people still see me as a speaker. And I haven't been a speaker for six years, just leading the front row dad community full time. But that takes a while for people to catch up when they see you a certain way. We have to be careful not to treat people like we remember them.

[Matt]

How about yourself? Like, you look in the mirror and you probably still trap yourself at times. How do you get out of that?

[John Vrome]

Well, I think that I'm gonna go back to the core of what I think of this conversation. And also what brings you and I together is our work with men.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

And I think what that is is having men who have the guts to challenge you and call you up and not let you do that to yourself. And if you have enough other great examples of men who are doing the work around you, you will be inspired to keep elevating and growing and. And leaning in. So I think that part of it's that what I see in myself, because other people hold the mirror up, and then part of what I see in them.

[Matt]

How do we not trap our spouse? Because, like, I find myself all the time remembering Melissa, who she was before, three children, and three children is a little bit more chaotic. And obviously, she's not as attentive to me and what's going on, because she's got, you know, the kids that she's looking after. We're looking after. How do you not trap your spouse?

[John Vrome]

Well, you're asking the question. Men and women are listening to this. I would encourage them to sit with that question and journal about it. How are you. And be honest with yourself. In what ways are you trapping your spouse in an old version of how you see them and holding them back? Because that's what you see. That's the story you tell. You repeat It. It's like an affirmation. Right. My spouse is blank. If they've always been late and you keep talking about how late they are and you poke around that, or then you help just lock in the identity.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

So part of it is just the awareness of it. You could also ask your spouse if you have that type of relationship, like, hey, where do you think you've evolved? And I still see you as a older version of yourself.

[David]

Right.

[John Vrome]

Where do you think I have not caught up to this new beautiful evolution in your life?

[Matt]

So the affirmation trick with Chat GPT doesn't work the same with a spouse as it does with the kids, is what I'm hearing.

[John Vrome]

You say I require tattoos to read an affirmation to become the woman I wanted. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

[Matt]

What about. So you're at the core. You said you're a people pleaser. There's a part of you that is.

[John Vrome]

A people pleaser that's accurate.

[Matt]

When you're a parent that is still existing inside of you.

[David]

Right.

[Matt]

Not telling your kids. No. Not wanting to disappoint them. How do you balance the people pleasing with the parenting?

[John Vrome]

It's such a great question, man. This just came up with Tiger recently, where I issued some consequences, and I challenged him in such a way that it was uncomfortable for me. And I think I heard somebody say one time, when a child gets a phone, as an example, at whatever age you deem that to be appropriate, when you give them the phone, make sure it's your phone, because I remind Tiger that you don't have a phone. I have a phone that I'm letting you use. And it's like those types of moments where I still claim fatherhood, I still claim leadership. And I had a conversation with him recently where I said, hey, man, I need you to be more aggressive. I actually need you to be more aggressive, because that's what I'm calling in. And so some of it is like, how do I keep telling him that he's enough? Nothing he'll ever do will make me love him anymore, that he has what it takes. How do I be patient as a father and at the same time be somebody who's willing to take away his phone? Right. Tell him he was wrong. Tell him I need him to be more aggressive. It's very challenging with those two things because you can swing the pendulum very quickly to be a overbearing. Right. Father who won't let his kid get an award in edgewise. And you need to be excellent in order to win approval in this house to a father that's like, ah, let them be who they're going to be. I'm not going to interfere, right? It's their life, natural consequences. Let it all unfold the way it's supposed to unfold. I think like everything there is a middle way. It's not my way or the highway and it's not you can drive anywhere you want to go. It's like, let's co create this and we have conversations. And that's what I think for me is true.

[Matt]

And so like when you discipline, is it taking things away? Is it creating more work? Like, what's your tendency from a discipline perspective?

[John Vrome]

Think you have to know your child and what works with them. First of all, I think you need to experiment constantly because some things are going to work and some things aren't. And I believe in incentives and consequences just naturally in life. Like that's how I like to work. And so if you do this, you can achieve this. I will pay you for this. I will give cash for things, I will give incentives of whatever it might be and I'll give consequences. So you know, as an example, I'll give you a practical example of this. In tight for Tiger's school, some parents are gonna thrash at this one. Sure this will get some, you know, either all in or you know, you're an idiot comment, but for his, his grades, I said I'm viewing school for you like it's your job. Now I want you to learn that when you put effort into something, you can earn cash for doing it, right? So here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to reward you for an A. You get X amount of dollars, right? So I pay him $200 for an A, $100 for a B, $50 for a C. But I take away $50 for a D, I take away $100 for an E. So he's got incentives and consequences with his grades. Now I started that this year in high school. And what I wanted him to do is I want him to be motivated because there's part of him that might say, why? Why do I want to do this? And I'm like, here's a reason that I want you to do learn how to perform. Not because I need you to memorize these things. I want you to learn how to learn. I want you to learn how to win at something. That's the skill I want you to learn. How do I win at that? So by the way, even if your teacher's terrible and you Hate the class or whatever. Could you figure out ways to excel in that class regardless? Could you use ChatGPT to interview you or learn the subject? Can you find other resources, tools? Can you learn how to get something faster, easier in your life? Great with that. I want you to learn how to be effective. So that's a great example of how I'm experimenting. Talk to me a year from now.

[David]

I know.

[Matt]

How's it work so far?

[John Vrome]

Right now? It's working great, right? It's working great because. Also giving us something to talk about. I'm like, oh, dude, you're one point away from another 50 bucks. And he's like, I know. And it's cool, right? And I'm like, dude, you got a D. You're gonna. You're gonna lose some cash, man. You don't. Don't lose this money. Like, what kind of car did you want? We're going havesies on the car. Let's get that car, man. So it's just. It's treating him like I would want to be treated. I want people setting goals with me. I want people talking about incentives. I mean, we know in business hire great people, incentivize them, get out of the way.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

Why are we. Why does it need to not start earlier with our kids?

[Matt]

What does legacy mean to you?

[John Vrome]

Hmm? What does legacy mean to me? You know, I think of this as legacy is energy more than it is about, you know, having your name written somewhere. I have always appreciated the thought of, like, hey, Matt, tell me about your great, great, great grandfather. You're like, what was his name?

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

What did. What did he do? Right? What was his impact on the world? 99.999% of people will shrug their shoulders and be like, I have no idea. So within two or three generations, we have no idea, but the energy of something. I think our legacy is actually not necessarily. I don't know that we should care about the legacy hundreds of years from now to concern ourself with that so much. Some of that gets into ego. I want my name to have. I wanted people to remember my name. I want to. That. Listen, there could be some beautiful parts of that, but the interesting thing about legacy is that if we do the right thing in any given moment, like, if we align ourselves with spirit, with God, if we align with our values, if we operate in such a way where we put our head on the pillow every night and feel good about who we were to ourselves, to our kids, to our wife, to our wives, to our businesses. And we know internally to me, that's legacy. It's like, legacy starts now. Legacy lives now in us. Because if anybody believes what I believe, and that is that energy is this frequency. It's that which I can't always describe, see, taste, feel, but it's just a vibration. It is something that I experience. If I'm vibrating at that frequency, then I'm doing good in the world. I don't know where that ripple goes. I don't know what impact it has. But I've got to believe that if I heal, I heal. You know, generations. You. You've heard that. You may have heard this before. It's like healing generations before me and after me.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

How the fuck do I know if that's true or not? I don't really know. But it's a beautiful thought.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

And if it helps me feel good in my body today that in some way, because of who I've chosen to be and how I chose to show up, that I might be able to heal people around me or impact, you know, that which I can't see at times for the better, that, to me, is legacy. So legacy lives now is how I would sum that up.

[Matt]

Yeah. I always love the saying. People say, how are you going to leave a legacy? And I think the only way to leave something is to live it.

[John Vrome]

That's it.

[Matt]

You have to live it. And when you talk about, like, living and spiritual and energy, like, I kind of want to lean into the concept of I'm very spiritual from an energetic perspective. The universe is like a river. It's very, like, flowing. And if I can tap that flow, it's. It's abundant. But you've also mentioned God a lot. So how do you balance this spiritual, sort of energetic energy and then also this figure, this godlike figure? Are they one in the same for you? Are they two different things? How do you play with that?

[John Vrome]

It's the same.

[David]

It's the same.

[John Vrome]

Yeah. So whatever word we use. And I love the thought that we're just making sounds with our mouth. Right. Where these two animals going. I say God, right? Like, I make this sound with my mouth. And we all think that we know what the other person means when we make that sound. But we're these primal creatures grunting into microphones right now.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

Trying to understand each other, trying to feel like we can relate and we can ultimately feed ourselves, protect our children and to thrive. That's what we're doing. And whether you call it, it doesn't matter to me. To me, God, spirit, life force, source, Right. All the names I could give. It means the same thing to me. And what it is, is there is some type of energy, some type of life force, some type of frequency that exists. And I'm not offended when somebody says God and they have a version of what that is. If somebody's tapping into something that is supporting them in their evolution. Beautiful. Good for you. Right? Good for me. I used to get hung up on. I would say the word God, and I'd be like, is that really what I mean? Do I mean God? I would even say prayer, and I'm like, that doesn't feel right. Am I subscribing to religion? Am I now? You know, do I? Have I lost my freedom because I say I can, right? Like, all of this wrestling of who am I? Are you controlling me? Do I need to subscribe to your dogma? Like, what is it? And now to me, I have this beautiful. Like, I can put my hand on my heart and be like, I'm talking to God. And to me, it's not like a figure. It's not a religious piece. It's like, I'm communing with spirit. And I'll say the word pray and feel good. I'll say the word God and feel good. I've just forgiven myself and said, oh, look, we're all just trying to talk to and be connected to this. This thing, this. This beautiful energy. And that's it. I try not to wrestle with the intellectual part of it. I try to get the spiritual benefit of it.

[Matt]

But you've also removed judgment from that. Because what I hear you saying is you used to have all these judgments, these four corners of the box, and that was all you saw. And then you've ripped out the judgment, and now you see so much more possibility.

[John Vrome]

It. Yeah, it's like, I'll give you a great visual. I was. So I grew up in a church, and then I left that church. And then I've since, as an adult, like, gone back to churches to see, how does this feel now? And I was in church not so long ago, months ago, and I saw somebody standing there singing, and their hands were up in the air and they were just, like, praising and worshiping and. But all they were doing was standing there in bliss with their hands in the air and feeling good. So take away all the judgment about, like, right, why they're there, what they're worshiping, who cares? They feel amazing. And then I'm imagining this EDM show that I'm at, right? And the DJ and people standing with their hands in the air with the same smile on their face. And what I realized was that wherever we go, whatever environment we're in, if we are feeling alive, if we are feeling inspired. Right. In spirit, then that's a beautiful thing. So I don't judge. I think that I have amazing friends that are Orthodox Jews. I have amazing friends that are Christian. I have amazing friends that practice no religion. And at the end of the day, I want somebody to feel connected to what I call spirit. So, yes, I've removed the judgment. I think there's very unhealthy pieces of Christianity, I think there's very unhealthy pieces of Orthodox Jews and I of Judaism. And then I think that there's very unhealthy elements of somebody who has no religion. I can see pros and cons for all of it.

[David]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And, and you see the pros, you see the cons, but you just continue to choose what resonates with you.

[John Vrome]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Without judgment, but just pure curiosity. Like, I'm going to go check out a church this week and see what it looks like. And oh, wow, that's beautiful. Look at how she's showing up. Not why is she here, not what is she doing here, what is she looking to get out of? Just like, look at her. That's amazing.

[David]

That's beautiful.

[John Vrome]

I want to subscribe to the things, Matt, also that when, when a leader, right. Says trust yourself.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

Look within, I lean towards that. So if I am in church and somebody would say, if the pastor would say or you know, would. And I've heard this, it's this version of like, don't trust yourself.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

Only trust the Bible. Only trust what, the word of God. Right. That I run the other way.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

I think that's dangerous in cults, right. Or communities where it is unhealthy, they're like, don't trust yourself. Trust me as the leader. So in front row dads, our motto is, look, we invite you to do things, consider things, think about things. But at the end of the day, you're a grown ass man and you should do whatever the fuck you want because that, that's the only healthy outcome. Have these conversations, hear all these other models of how to do parenting, how to do marriage, how to do business. But you decide only you know what's healthy for you. And that's the only one that I want to subscribe to, is trust yourself.

[Matt]

Do you still find moments where you don't trust yourself or you don't trust your intuition or you fight it Are you pretty good at leaning all in, all the time?

[John Vrome]

Much more lately I'm great at just pausing, putting my hand on my heart and then, yeah, we need to go left. Yeah, we need to say yes to that. I'm a no to that. I'm very good at that now. And I will at times go, ooh, I have a very strong voice saying yes. I have a very strong voice saying no. And then I laugh and I go, oh, in this case, we can just flip a coin.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

Like, we can let fate decide. Because there, there are times in life I believe that there are equal parts good as bad. I can see five reasons for. Yes, I see five reasons for. Life is not very simple that way. You know, there are pros and cons. And if it gets too muddy, let fate decide.

[David]

Yeah.

[John Vrome]

Surrender, it doesn't matter. Lean into one, right? Flip a coin, ask a child, right? Spin around, point your finger, it doesn't matter. But then just travel that path and then, you know, and. And then you'll decide what to do from there. So much easier for me to make decisions now. And this idea of checking with my body. I think what I've seen with mental is as they get older, I've experienced this, I've seen other men experience it. They value their body wisdom more the older they get. Very early on, it's in their head. Does it make sense on paper? Can I draw that out on a graph? Does it make sense intellectually? As they get older and they get more attuned to their body, they're like, oh, my stomach feels a certain way, my shoulders feel a certain way. Like they're actually more embodied in their decisions. And to me, that's what a full body. Yes. Means. My brain is involved, my heart is involved, my gut is involved. I have all these brilliant cells in my body that are reacting to this and telling me. We call that intuition, we can call that gut instinct, whatever it is, but that is to be trusted to some degree. Right. I'm not saying all the time, 100%, but definitely to be trusted.

[Matt]

So it's going to be ironic because not coming from a place of judgment, but purely a place of awareness. Because you've had so much exposure to men, specifically fathers, through what you've done with front row dads. Fundamentally, in today's day and age, where are men screwing up most as fathers?

[John Vrome]

They're not engaged. Yeah. They're not embodied. They are not claiming their power. And I'm not talking about abusive power, yelling, screaming, punching things which I have done all of those, by the way. But I'm talking about the. A solid man. I call that a solid man. A man with range and range of. I have dark, I have light energy in me, right? I have in control and out of control all parts of me. I have wounded parts and healed parts. I am a full range man. And just like I'm doing with my hands, where I'm holding them out, when I stretch to either side of that, accepting my light and my darkness, the more that I do that, I increase my capacity as a person to hold myself and therefore hold other people. And what a father is missing is their own personal. Personal expansion of capacity and range. And then. And. And be. They're not. And they're not bringing all of their capacity and range to their family fully. So there's two pieces. One, they may not be finding their capacity and range because they're not doing the work. And then they are not bringing whatever version of themselves to their family because they're avoiding that. So if you grow and engage, that's where all of the magic happens.

[Matt]

Why do people not engage?

[John Vrome]

They're scared. Rightfully so. It's an important job. You can screw it up, right? You can. And so they abandon ship. They disengage, they go do something else. They make excuses for why they're not going to show up. I mean, front row dads, the reason that name exists is it's about being in the front row, is proximity. And you know, Tony Robbins always said that, like, proximity is power. And if you get close to your kids, get close to your wife, again, that's where mistakes will happen. But at least you're in it and you can learn and you can right be present. So a present father, an engaged father, and a father who is looking in the mirror doing the work. That's the best dad.

[Matt]

So outside of your relationship, where in your life are you most Flirting with disaster. I don't want to give you an easy out.

[John Vrome]

I love this question. Outside of my relationship, where am I flirting with disaster? Two areas. One is with health. This may sound crazy, but, like, we know that we have some mold in our house and we've done. We know that from testing. We've tested our bodies. We have mold in our bodies. We know. And I think that we keep saying we're going to remedy this, we're going to get it taken care of. And I think that mold is such a serious topic that I'm kind of flirting with disaster by maybe not taking it even more seriously. I am doing things. I am Taking action. But I could be missing something there. I do feel like that's flirting with potential health disaster. Right. I think at work, where I'm flirting with disaster is not getting the right who in place fast enough to where we both know somebody who passed away last year, a person I was very, very close with at 44 years old who left four daughters behind. And I think to myself, to really protect our staff, our members, my family, maybe financially in the future, if something were to happen to me, maybe I'm flirting with the disaster of, like, I have too much faith that I'll be here tomorrow, you know, and that if I'm not, then maybe the wheels come off of things that I hope I've maybe secured those wheels a little better. So maybe I'm flirting there.

[Matt]

So have you taken actions after his passing to, like, get your affairs in order?

[John Vrome]

Yeah, big time. Yeah. That affected me more than almost anything in my life. I was profoundly impacted by. I could talk about that for hours and hours and hours. But, yes, man, I looked at lots of things. I went back to my will. I went back to our insurance policies. I've been talking with the team differently. I'm communing with God differently around this subject. And so, yes, man, there's lots of ways that I've allowed for his life to be a blessing to mine.

[David]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

And have you changed the dialogue with your wife or your children for what you want them to remember?

[John Vrome]

No. And I'll tell you why. Because to me, when I sat with this question before, I realized that the only thing that matters. In that case, let me bite those words back for a second. What matters most? There's lots of things that matter, but what matters most is how I'm showing up. So I can talk a big game. I could write a letter. I can hang our values up. I can do all that stuff. Nothing wrong with it. But I'm living my values every day. I do have a brand. It's the one that you're living. So you can hang up respect, integrity, trust, honor on your wall, but if you're not doing those things, those aren't really your family values. Those are words on a wall. So to me, what I think was very important is that I change energetically. I change my behavior. I change how I'm talking to them. And I am for sure a better dad after his passing. I'm a more loving present person, more forgiving person. I gave up drinking in his honor, which to me was just my way of saying, hey, man, I was praying to him in my sauna, and I had a conversation, and that was what came of it, was to just stop drinking. And I'm so grateful that I did that. So I think there are actions I'm taking that feel like are the most important thing.

[Matt]

And somebody listening to this is going like, man, I feel like I'm a good dad, but I know I've got more to give. You know, going back to your range, I got more capacity. I got more range.

[David]

Yeah.

[Matt]

They're hearing this and they're going like, front row dads. What is this? What's this all about? Why would somebody choose to be a part of the front row dad community? And what would they get out of it?

[John Vrome]

Yeah. I think, first of all, it has to be a man who's ready for this. They have to be at a time in their life when they're like, I don't want to have to sell somebody on the value of relationships. I don't want to have to sell somebody on the value of growth. I don't want to have to sell somebody on the value of showing up as a dad. But if they are like, I want to be there for my family, I know I have room to grow. Right. I know that relationships are important, then this is a community of men who want to be. Who choose to be family. Men with businesses, not businessmen with families. By the way, if that phrase does not hit you or resonate with you, you are likely not a good member for us. But if that phrase is like, ooh, I get that that frequency is right for me, then I would say lean in, start listening to the podcast. Like, come to one of our free events that we host, like, once a month where you can join a call and learn about it. Just start asking questions and leaning in. What Front Row Dads is. Is a community of men who want to be there for each other. Right. They're choosing to show up, to have conversations that most men are not having online and in person. You know, we have small groups that we call bands, so four to eight guys that meet regularly. We have online events for guys who can't travel or won't travel at this current time. We have live events for guys who are ready to hop on a plane and come hang with us. Just like what, you know, I've seen thrive at gobundance or any community of amazing people is the depth of the conversation. Can I be myself? Can I trust these people? Are they here to help me? And nothing is better than having a group of people around you. My buddy Braden says Community is the greatest survival tool. And I love that because I used to think when I was younger, Matt, that if I die, who comes to my funeral? Kind of like, who do I matter to? But you know what I really care about now as a 49 year old dad of two, right, is I'd be honored if people who love me came to my funeral. Of course, that would be great. I'm not here to appreciate it, but wonderful, right? Means that maybe I love them and they love me and that's a beautiful thing. I really want to know who's going to be there for my family. I want to know who's going to show up a month later, six months later, a year later, like, do I have the level of brotherhood, by the way, that's going to show up for my family two years later, ten years later? What level of auntie and uncle are we talking about? And I wanted my kids to have a hundred amazing uncles in their life, people that I poured into. And so I think that I'm going to go right back to your question, which is front row dads is a group, is a brotherhood. It's a group of men. Just like many, there's many great brotherhoods, for the record, right? We love ours. If it's a good fit for anybody listening, great. But. But you can find community in lots of places. You can find it in your church, you can find it in your neighborhood. You can just get a couple dudes together and do that. But if what you know is maybe organizing men around you for events is not your strength, then let us do it for you.

[David]

Yeah, right?

[John Vrome]

So people, they go, am I paying for friendship? I go, no, you're paying for us to fucking organize all the stuff that's hard to organize, right? You're hiring an admin team to help put together the events, the conversations. But no, you're not paying for friendships. These are all men who could have friendships for free. Paying to have people organize intentional dialogues and gatherings, that's what you're doing. And the resources that support the mission of being better fathers.

[Matt]

It's beautiful, man. I really love and respect the way you show up for people. I've been fortunate to be around you a very good amount of my time with, working with David. And you always show up so authentic, so vulnerable, so raw. I love what you're doing with front row dads. And I just really grateful for the conversation we had today.

[John Vrome]

Thanks, man. Yeah, this has been great. I looked forward to this and it didn't disappoint, man. I want to acknowledge you for a moment too. That fully present, definitely like deep listening and asking great questions. This is what I live for. And as a young man I lived to impress women. You know, I wanted to impress women and make money and that was such a driving. Who was I going to date next? What does she think of me? That was such a big part of my early life. It's fascinating to me that as a 49 year old man, I've so much desire and love and respect for great men like you to be in conversation like this. And this feels like the, one of the highest and best uses of time. So thank you man for having me. Thank you for your work. It's. It's been great to watch one of my best friends talk about you behind your back because I get a lot of like David's thoughts about you, you know, when it's just the two of us and he loves and respects you, thinks the world of you, has such great things to say about you and even other people saying that they admire and are in ways jealous of the relationship that you two have and how you support, support each other and, and, and, and have each other's back.

[David]

Yeah, we're very lucky.

[John Vrome]

It's great.

[Matt]

Very lucky. Thanks for your time, man. I appreciate you.

[David]

Yeah.