Summary8 min read

The Matt King Show – Episode 016: Anthony Tolliver | 13 Years in the NBA… But This Is What Actually Built Wealth

Release Date: June 11, 2025
Host: Matt King (GoBundance)
Guest: Anthony Tolliver

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the remarkable journey of Anthony Tolliver, a 13-year NBA veteran who played for 11 teams and got cut nine times, but whose sustainable wealth and legacy were forged off the court. The conversation explores how his upbringing, mindset, investment strategy, and relentless work ethic led to a diversified business portfolio and a purposeful life after sports. The dialogue is honest, practical, and filled with memorable lessons about transitioning identity, leadership, generational wealth, and the power of networks like GoBundance.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Adversity and Work Ethic

Resilience in the Face of Rejection
- Tolliver was cut nine times from NBA teams, but each setback fueled his resolve:
  
  "There's doubts every single time. Yeah, whenever somebody says you're not good enough...This might be my last opportunity." (00:04)
Family as Foundation
- Tolliver attributes his work ethic to both parents. His mother, a teacher, juggled multiple jobs and introduced him to real estate by keeping and renting out her first home (02:54).
  
  "She kept that house. Instead of selling it...we go across town and collect money from the people that live in that house...So it was normal. It’s like, yes, of course, you own other houses besides your own and you collect money from them." (02:54)
- He saw relentless hustle in both parents, shaping his view on “working at something I want to do.” (04:21)

2. Basketball as a Tool—Not an Identity

From a young age, basketball was a means to an end, not who he was:

"Basketball was never my identity...I looked at it as a tool. I'm going to use it to my, me and my family's advantage for as long as I can. And when it stops, that's okay." (00:24, 65:08)
He realized in college that professional basketball could create “generational money,” shifting his focus from the sport itself to the wealth-building opportunities it offered (05:01).

3. Breaking Into and Sticking in the NBA

The Challenge of Making It and Staying
- Tolliver recounts the anxiety of getting cut, and his first NBA camp with the Cavaliers, which included being matched up with LeBron James (08:25):
  
  "They have me matching up against LeBron. Why? Because we're the same size. I'm like, but we're not the same at all." (08:51)
- His persistence paid off:
  
  "At the eyeglasses store...I just had a moment. I was like, holy crap, I just made the team. Now it was short lived. I got cut the next day...but at that point I made the team. So technically I made the NBA. So technically you can't tell me nothing." (11:06–11:32)
Role Player and Relentlessness
- Tolliver recognized he wasn’t the best athlete or shooter, but could be “relentless,” quickly learn systems, and fill gaps on any team.
  
  "What can I be? I can be relentless. I can be a hard worker. I can be the guy who doesn't mess up...that became my calling card." (14:56)

4. Transferring the Athlete’s Mindset to Business

Forever a Student

"I'm a forever learner. I'm going to be 80 years old trying to solve problems." (19:34)
- Tolliver’s curiosity led him to research and invest in over 50 companies across real estate, startups, and private equity (59:51).
Knowing Roles & Partnership

"I knew I wasn't the CEO of any of these businesses. I need a great person who's going to be the operator...I just built my entire portfolio and entire business structure on partnership and role playing." (20:27, 21:16)
Problem Solving

"Solve big problems, typically, it's going to be bigger paydays...I just try to solve problems, you know, especially in business." (81:01, 82:19)

5. Leadership by Example (Sports, Business, and Parenting)

Tolliver’s most profound leadership lessons came from Tim Duncan during his time with the San Antonio Spurs:

"One of the best leaders I've ever seen. I'm not sure if he ever said five words to me...but it was clear. The expectation was clear as day." (33:05–34:02)
"Leadership is way more than just words. It's walking the walk more than it's talking the talk." (36:39)
He has seen the opposite: vocal but uninvolved leaders get ignored (37:12).
Parenting Parallel

"If I treat my wife and kids with respect, even if I never say treat others with respect, they're gonna pick that up." (38:04)
On Empathy

"You don't know what to...His wife might have just had a miscarriage...I went back two weeks after my mom passed. I'm on the court trying to perform, and I can't make a shot...So there's just a level of empathy that I have for guys who are struggling on the court, because I literally give them the benefit of the doubt every single time. And it's not just them. It's people." (66:58–68:11)

6. Transitioning Out of the NBA

Identity Beyond the Game

"My identity was never the NBA...I was always Anthony Tolliver who happened to play in the NBA, but you weren't an NBA player named Anthony Tolliver." (64:04)
- He made the post-NBA transition easier by building his portfolio and identity on business interests outside basketball from year one.
- He encourages athletes to treat money as a tool, not an obsession (65:08).

7. Building and Sustaining Wealth: Principles and Stories

Diversification

"If you're all in on one thing, well, then you're subject to that one thing. And that's where, you know, the diversification is very important." (79:52)
- Covid destroyed one business investment but multiplied returns in another (Big Blanket), reinforcing the need to spread risk (77:00–79:39).
Network Value (GoBundance & Beyond)

"There's value in brain trusts...the value of the loose ties is worth every penny that we pay." (71:22, 72:25, 74:37)

8. Legacy, Generational Wealth & Social Responsibility

Tolliver is passionate about building a legacy for his children and broader community, especially as part of the first African American generation with real access to wealth-building:

"My dad was 19 when Martin Luther King got killed...he did not have the opportunity to build wealth. So...I'm part of the first generations of African Americans that...I don't feel like there's any limits on what I can go do for my family. So there's a certain level of responsibility that I feel..." (85:04–86:19)
For Tolliver, money is just one part of generational wealth; the bigger legacy is the example and opportunities left behind (84:55–88:41).

Memorable Quotes & Moments (With Timestamps)

On Getting Cut 9 Times and Resilience:

"There's doubts every single time...whenever somebody says you're not good enough...this might be my last opportunity." (00:04)
Business, Not Sports, Built Wealth:

"It’s not about the money...it’s about the legacy...a foundation for my family, for my kids and their kids and their kids to be able to build upon." (00:45, 84:23)
Turning Lessons Into Legacy:

"The real game wasn't on the court. It was who you become when the lights go off." (01:08)
Tim Duncan's Silent Leadership:

"Not sure if he ever said five words to me...but it was clear...the expectation was clear as day." (33:05–34:02)
"Leadership is way more than just words. It's walking the walk more than it's talking the talk." (36:39)
On Being Starstruck:

"Every day...I was StarStruck by seeing LeBron. Even though he's literally my age." (40:30)
"Meeting Michael Jordan for the first time, I was just like, what the heck? Like, this is crazy, right? This is awesome. But there's very few people I've met that had like an aura. And he's one of them, a true aura around that man." (41:36–42:54)
On Kobe Bryant:

"Relentlessness. I compare him to a lion...he would sacrifice at all for the win." (45:28)
"His work ethic in basketball has influenced probably more business than most any...business influencer." (46:16)
On Empathy and Life Off the Court:

"Whenever I...was driving and...there's this car that just like, saw me, sped up...instead of being like, yeah...my first thought was not like, f you. It was like, man, that guy might be having a bad day. And what was awesome is my daughter got a chance to see that..." (68:10–69:22)
On Not Getting Lost in the 'Best' Player Arguments:

"If you say Michael would only be a DeMaro DeRozan in today's game. I'm like, oh my gosh, what a disrespect...you're discounting both of their greatnesses." (54:17–54:23)
"Doesn't matter, because there's no right or wrong answer." (54:44–54:48)
On Getting into Business Transition:

"It was something that I never really made a transition because from year one, I began, I guess, my journey as a businessman, as a real estate investor..." (59:51)
On GoBundance:

"The value of the loose ties is worth every penny that we pay...it's just, it became such a cool way to expand my network." (72:11, 73:13)
On Building Generational Wealth and Responsibility:

"For me, especially being African American...I'm part of one of the first generations that...I don't feel like there's any limits on what I can go do for my family. So there's a certain level of responsibility that I feel that I have." (85:04–86:23)

Timestamps for Key Segments

Work Ethic & Family Influence: 00:45–04:57
Making and Sticking in the NBA: 06:34–12:13
Starstruck Moments & Meeting Legends: 40:30–46:16
Business Philosophy & Diversification: 59:51–80:31
Lessons from Tim Duncan & Leadership: 32:47–37:48
Empathy, Identity, and Life After Sports: 64:04–68:10
GoBundance Value & Networking: 70:01–74:37
On Legacy & Wealth—Social Impact: 84:55–88:41

Final Takeaways

Legacy over Income: Tolliver repeatedly emphasizes that wealth exists to create a foundation for future generations—money is a tool, not the final prize.
Stay Humble and Curious: Whether in basketball or business, embracing a “forever learner” mindset pays dividends.
Diversify and Adapt: No career or investment is guaranteed, and quick pivots plus diversified interests can turn catastrophe into opportunity.
Surround Yourself with Greatness: The power of networks and learning from the best (in sports and business) is unmatched.
Empathy and Perspective: Carrying grace toward others, whether on the court, at home, or in business, makes one a better leader and creates a richer legacy.

"I just try to solve problems...to build a foundation for my family, for my kids and their kids and their kids to be able to build upon." — Anthony Tolliver (84:23)

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Transcript621 lines

[00:00]
Interviewer
They cut him not once, not twice, but nine times.
[00:05]
Anthony Tolliver
There's doubts every single time. Yeah, whenever somebody says you're not good enough, this might be my last opportunity. Because not everybody gets an opportunity to even potentially make him in the NBA.
[00:16]
Interviewer
He played for 11 teams across 13 seasons. And the whole entire time he was building something bigger than the game of basketball.
[00:24]
Anthony Tolliver
Basketball was never my identity. By the time I got to the NBA, I looked at it as a tool. I'm going to use it to my, me and my family's advantage for as long as I can. And when it stops, that's okay.
[00:37]
Interviewer
Today he owns over 50 businesses, invests in legacy and parents. Like a man who's done the work.
[00:45]
Anthony Tolliver
It'S not about the money. Like I'll make a butt ton of money doing it, but it's not about that. It's about the legacy that comes with it and leaving the legacy and a mark on people's lives. So there's a certain level of responsibility that I feel that I have to do that and to build a foundation for my family, for my kids and their kids and their kids to be able to build upon.
[01:09]
Interviewer
Because the real game wasn't on the court. It was who you become when the lights go off.
[01:15]
Anthony Tolliver
He has completely changed the game. Four out of five from downtown. How about Anthony Toliver from the corner? Red hot in the first half, still burning in the second. Pumped on the shot.
[01:34]
Interviewer
This is Anthony Toliver. You weren't just given a Division 1 scholarship. You weren't just given first round draft pick in the NBA. You weren't just given contract after contract after contract. You had to grind, you had to work really hard. Did you get that work ethic from your mom, from your dad? Were you born with it?
[01:53]
Anthony Tolliver
Yeah. I mean, people ask me that quite a bit. I think it's a combination of both. It's, it's, it's some nurture, some nature. My mom was extremely hard working individual. Worked as a teacher for 31 years. Worked multiple jobs.
[02:12]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[02:12]
Anthony Tolliver
Like not during school year, but in the summer. She would always have, you know, an activity where she's leading black history summer school or whatever. These different. I was like, oh, that's cool. As a kid, I wasn't thinking like, oh, she's doing this to make extra money.
[02:29]
Interviewer 3
Right, right.
[02:30]
Anthony Tolliver
It was just like, oh, that's. My mom's a teacher and she's teaching a class over the summer. Okay, cool. But it's like, hey, she's doing this for a purpose. Like she's trying to make extra income for the family and just always, you know, just thinking of different stuff like that. And then she had. She had a house and so. Which is kind of the origin story of my real estate passion.
[02:54]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[02:54]
Anthony Tolliver
It was like she had a house across town that it was her original house she had bought. And when she moved to Springfield, Missouri, where we grew up, and once she started to, you know, save up a couple bucks, she was able to afford a house on the other side of town. But she kept that house. Instead of selling it, she kept it. And so growing up, I always, like, the only thing I knew was, hey, we're going across town. It's the first or the second of the month we go across town and we collect money from the people that live in that house.
[03:28]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[03:28]
Anthony Tolliver
And I didn't know what that really meant.
[03:31]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[03:32]
Anthony Tolliver
I just knew that my mom collected money from these people. And so as a kid, that's all I knew. And so it was normal. It's like, yes, of course, you own other houses besides your own and you collect money from them.
[03:44]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[03:45]
Anthony Tolliver
So when I got older, I was like, naturally, I was like, of course I want to do that. I want to do that over and over and over. So seeing her doing that, seeing her doing all the extra jobs over the summer, seeing how hard she worked as a teacher, and then my dad, so my mom and dad got divorced when I was really young. And so my dad worked all the time.
[04:08]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[04:09]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, I hardly saw him, he worked so much. And so just knowing that he had like two or three jobs at all times pretty much my entire childhood, it's like, all right, well, you work.
[04:21]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[04:22]
Anthony Tolliver
Like as whatever you're doing that in. And so my desire became, I'm going to work, so I want to work at something and towards something that I want to do.
[04:31]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[04:32]
Anthony Tolliver
And so I love basketball. So it just be. It just came clear. All right, well, that's where I'm putting all my time, energy and effort to maximize it. As I got older, I realized I can make some money doing this, like some real money, Not. Not just. Not just feed my family, like, not just get by, but just make some generational type of money through this sport. And that's when it just was like, oh, I'm all in. Like, let's go.
[04:58]
Interviewer 2
Right?
[04:58]
Interviewer
Was that high school, college.
[05:01]
Anthony Tolliver
I mean, the desire to play in the NBA when I was 4, 5 at my entire. Since I've had memory, that was a desire. I wanted to play in the NBA. But when I started to look at it As a tool, probably late high school, early college is when I was like, okay, I could use this game massively to my advantage and to my family's advantage and make some good money. And I was like, at that point, it's like MBA or not. Yes, that's my desire. I'm going to work towards it and see what happens. But I knew even if once I reached college and then we'd have some ex players come back or players from another college that playing over in Japan, playing here, playing there, and one of the guys in particular, I don't remember his name, but he was making like 800 grand in Japan.
[05:49]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[05:49]
Anthony Tolliver
Every year. And I'm like. And I was playing against him and I was a freshman, sophomore. And I was like, better than him?
[05:57]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[05:58]
Anthony Tolliver
I was like, huh, okay.
[06:01]
Interviewer
Yeah, I can do this.
[06:02]
Anthony Tolliver
I can do this at the professional level and make, I mean, 800 grand at that point, unfathomable money.
[06:10]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[06:10]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, my, my family had never seen anything close to that. So I was like, I don't even care. Like, even if that's the ceiling, I'm like, I'm all in. Like, there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to replicate that.
[06:24]
Interviewer 3
Right.
[06:24]
Anthony Tolliver
At some point, maybe you don't come out fresh or, sorry, rookie year and make 800 grand. But I was like, if he's making 800 grand overseas, I could get there.
[06:35]
Interviewer
Was there ever a moment where you didn't think you'd make the NBA?
[06:40]
Anthony Tolliver
About the eight or nine times I got cut or, or, you know, released or, you know, however you want to say that nicely.
[06:49]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[06:52]
Anthony Tolliver
There's doubts every single time.
[06:54]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[06:54]
Anthony Tolliver
Whenever somebody says, you're not good enough, well, of course they don't say, you're not good enough. They say, well, you know, it's a business decision or, you know, whatever it's like. But each time it didn't feel any worse.
[07:06]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[07:07]
Anthony Tolliver
Or sorry, it didn't feel any better. It just felt like, huh, this might be my last opportunity. Because not everybody gets an opportunity to even potentially make it in the NBA. So after about the seventh or eighth time, I got released or whatever, it's kind of like, am I going to have another opportunity? Am I ever going to make it and stick? Because sticking was the most important thing.
[07:33]
Interviewer 3
Right.
[07:35]
Anthony Tolliver
You know, touching the NBA was great. Which is something you could never take away from me. Right. Like, that was. I actually remember a specific moment whenever I was. I went to camp with the Cleveland Cavaliers my rookie year. No expectations from them. No expectations from probably Anybody besides myself going into that camp, it was. They had 19 guys. They go to camp with 20. And so they called me and they're like, hey, you want to come and fill in? Sure, yeah, I'm in. Sure. Absolutely. It's an opportunity, right? So for me, I was like, absolutely. I don't care if it's 20th man or what, but, you know, had a guy there from Arizona, had a guy there from the University of Miami, you know, all the, you know, bigger name guys, guys that I knew.
[08:25]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[08:26]
Anthony Tolliver
As the bigger name guys that they had brought in the camp. And I was just like, I don't know. I really care who these guys are. I'm going to do what I do. I'm focusing on me, not on them. And so through that camp, it was kind of my first NBA experience, and I'm. They have me matching up against LeBron. Why? Because we're the same size. I'm like, but we're not the same at all.
[08:51]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[08:52]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, he's. He's different.
[08:54]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[08:54]
Anthony Tolliver
But it gave me an opportunity.
[08:56]
Interviewer 2
Right?
[08:57]
Anthony Tolliver
I. I mean, the amount of energy I exerted trying to stay in front of that man as a rookie, that has no clue what's going on. Like, it was. I think back now, I'm like, I don't know how that. How I exerted that much energy in a practice, but anyways, going through that whole process was. It was something that allowed me to realize, A, I belong.
[09:20]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[09:21]
Anthony Tolliver
So it gave me a lot of confidence, but B, it gave a lot of people within the organization that had no clue who I was. It gave them a. A little bit of a. A preview of who I was going to be. I wasn't a great shooter yet going into the NBA, but I did everything else, like, flawlessly. And that's. That's not me saying that. That's them saying that essentially, like, hey, we threw you in just a second to see how you reacted. Because most of these rookies and young players, they're on the sideline, they don't pay attention.
[09:52]
Interviewer 3
Right.
[09:52]
Anthony Tolliver
We noticed that every time we'd, like, actually tried to screw you up, like, hey, going at the three. And I'd be like, all right, cool. I go in at the three, run to play flawlessly. Hey, going at the five, going at the five. Because I'm paint, I'm like, okay, discount. Okay, bam, bam, bam, bam. I'm good, right? Like, I know the play. And so just go in there and just do my job. And so they end up cutting the guy from University of Arizona Miami, the other guys, it's like all of a sudden I'm like, there's only 15 of us here and tomorrow's open at night and I'm not going. And so they're like, yeah, I'm like five o' clock tonight. There is, you know, if you don't hear anything about 5:00' clock tonight, you're on the team. I was like, Holy crap. So four, it's about 4:50. Hadn't heard anything yet. Like call my agent. Oh, are you hearing anything? He's like, haven't heard anything. So I'm like at the eyeglasses store because at that time I was still wearing glasses and. And I remember like looked at my watches, 501 looked at my phone, no missed calls, no anything. And I was just like, I get in my car and I just had a moment. I was like, holy crap, I just made the team.
[11:06]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[11:07]
Anthony Tolliver
Now it was short lived. I got cut the next day.
[11:10]
Interviewer
Before opening night or after?
[11:11]
Anthony Tolliver
No, I got cut on opening night.
[11:12]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[11:13]
Anthony Tolliver
Because they had a veteran guy that had, was holding out for more money and he came back that like that day they came to terms on the deal and I was on a non guarantee. So I was the one to cut.
[11:25]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[11:25]
Interviewer
But at that point I made the team.
[11:27]
Anthony Tolliver
I made the team. So technically I made the NBA. So technically you can't tell me nothing.
[11:33]
Interviewer 3
Right?
[11:33]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[11:33]
Anthony Tolliver
And so I bumped Kanye west and welcome to the good life. I remember, literally I remember that moment. I probably never forget it. I was like, I just sat there and just like holy crap.
[11:43]
Interviewer
Did you cry?
[11:45]
Anthony Tolliver
I don't think I cried. I was just so happy. Yeah, like it was, yeah, I was just so happy. I called my mom and just holy crap.
[11:53]
Interviewer
Like did she cry?
[11:55]
Anthony Tolliver
She didn't. She was just ecstatic, you know. But at the same time I knew it wasn't going to be super long term. I knew it was like a temporary, but I was like, I don't care.
[12:03]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[12:03]
Anthony Tolliver
I was like, in the future, if I never touch the NBA again, I can say I made it to the NBA. Yeah.
[12:08]
Interviewer
You achieved your childhood dream.
[12:09]
Anthony Tolliver
Absolutely.
[12:10]
Interviewer
From four years old.
[12:10]
Anthony Tolliver
And I did it. Year one.
[12:12]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[12:12]
Anthony Tolliver
First try.
[12:13]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[12:14]
Anthony Tolliver
So from then I was like, I'm an NBA player. So everywhere I went I was in on paper, whether it be in the newspaper or whatever. If I got signed, like I signed over in Germany. They were like former, former Cleveland cavalier Anthony Toliver.
[12:30]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[12:31]
Anthony Tolliver
It was just like everything was former NBA player. I was like, holy crap. And I was like, but I don't want that to say former. Yeah, I want that to be permanent. Like I want, I want back. So it gave me a different level of hunger. Hunger to make it back, but also just the confidence. And confidence, as you know, is so important. And in everything in life, but especially in sports, if you, you stand over a golf ball and you have zero confidence, you have zero chance of really hitting that thing. If you get into a game in basketball and you have zero confidence, you're going to disappear. Like, there's no, there's no standing out if you have zero confidence. So that was, that was, that was a special moment for sure.
[13:12]
Interviewer
What was it like playing against LeBron at that age? Because, I mean, you're like young, naive, just out of college and you're going up against like a guy you probably saw on espn.
[13:20]
Anthony Tolliver
Well, he's my age.
[13:21]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[13:22]
Anthony Tolliver
But it. And I played against him growing up.
[13:24]
Interviewer 3
Oh, you did?
[13:25]
Anthony Tolliver
Like an aau.
[13:26]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[13:26]
Anthony Tolliver
But of course we're in high school.
[13:29]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[13:29]
Anthony Tolliver
In middle school and high school, which at that point he was starting to get the publicity and notoriety and stuff. And so we're like, this kid's different.
[13:37]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[13:38]
Anthony Tolliver
And, but he was still, I still viewed him as an equal at that point, like in some ways.
[13:44]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[13:44]
Anthony Tolliver
Because he's still a high school kid.
[13:46]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[13:47]
Anthony Tolliver
Well, of course, I go to college, he goes to the NBA and then not only just goes to the NBA, he goes to the NBA.
[13:53]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[13:53]
Anthony Tolliver
And he's killing it from day one and is a. By the time I'm going to try out for the Cleveland Cavaliers, he's a three time all star.
[14:02]
Interviewer 3
Right, right.
[14:03]
Anthony Tolliver
Like first team, all NBA by that time.
[14:07]
Interviewer 3
Right.
[14:08]
Anthony Tolliver
I just finished at Creighton in a small little, you know, Missouri Valley Conference. Like, I don't have any business, you know what I'm saying? Like being here, but like he's a superstar already. And so I'm like, okay, I don't have anything to lose.
[14:24]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[14:25]
Anthony Tolliver
If he kills me, he killed, he kills everybody in the league. I don't care. So I just went out there and gave it everything. But like I said, the amount of energy I exerted on every single cut, every single everything, everything. I was exhausted every single day.
[14:42]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[14:43]
Anthony Tolliver
But I knew that's the only way I have a chance because I'm not a LeBron athlete. I'm not as tall and as big as Zildrunis Elgauskis. I don't know if you remember that.
[14:54]
Interviewer
Oh, yeah, I remember that guy.
[14:55]
Anthony Tolliver
Massive.
[14:56]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[14:57]
Anthony Tolliver
I'm not, you know, Coming from a big school like Drew Gooden, he was on the team at the time. I'm not the shooter that Larry Hughes is. You know, I'm not any of those things. What can I be? I can be relentless. I can be a hard worker. I can be the guy who doesn't mess up. And so I just had to find my niche, had to find my role. And, you know, that was a, that was the beginning of identifying that role in the league. And just like, hey, that became my calling card. You can, he can come in and be plugged into any system. He's going to come in, he's going to learn the system quick and he's going to learn every position. It's like if you threw me at the point guard, I could run the play. Yeah, Now I'm not a point guard, but I'm going to run the plays. I'm going to know the system like, just like my brain could just like pick it up and so, all right, well, I can't touch the top of the backboard like some of these guys, but I can go in and fill a gap like nobody's business.
[15:57]
Interviewer 2
Right?
[15:57]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, that became my calling card and became my role kind of moving forward.
[16:04]
Interviewer
You've done it all. You've built the business, you've made the money. You conquered the grind. You're the lone wolf. And yeah, that got you here. But let's be real, it won't take you to the next level. The truth Most successful people don't hunt alone. They join a tribe. A network of elite entrepreneurs, investors or leaders who challenge them, push them and hold them accountable to their biggest goals. And gobundance is that tribe. Extreme accountability, real wealth building, life changing adventure. And a brotherhood who refuses to let each other play small. So here's the challenge. Stay the lone wolf or run with the pack. The right tribe changes everything. Find a link in the description Apply today. This episode is brought to you by Loletta Birnbaum llc. Doing business justice if you're a business owner, entrepreneur, real estate investor, or a combination of each, you know how critical it is to have trusted legal advisors on your team. Loletta Birnbaum has built a stellar reputation providing exceptional legal services that make a difference. As a national business law firm, Loletta Birnbaum provides a wide variety of legal services, including general corporate contract negotiations, mergers and acquisitions, succession planning, intellectual property, commercial litigation, shareholder disputes, real estate and employment. Whether you're navigating a complex business deal, resolving disputes, or protecting your brand, their team delivers practical results driven legal solutions tailored to your goals. For inquiries, GoBundance members should email Loletta Birnbaum at gobundancealeletta.com that's la u l e t t a dot com. You can also visit their website at www.la u l e t a dot com to learn more about how they can do your business justice. This episode is brought to you by Apex Functional Health, the team behind Age Defying Health Ecobundance if you're a high achieving entrepreneur, investor or leader, you know that your health is your greatest asset. But the truth is, traditional medicine isn't built for people like you. It treats symptoms, ignores root causes, and keeps you stuck in cycles of fatigue, stress and subpar performance. That's where Apex comes in. They do not do band aids. They engineer elite health transformations for men, women and children looking to optimize their health and and be proactive instead of reactive. Apex uses root cause functional medicine, advanced lab testing and cutting edge biohacking tools to help you optimize energy, eliminate the root cause holding you back, and reverse early signs of aging so you can live, feel and perform at your best. Apex helps you take control of your health so you can lead with power, not burnout. Visit apexfunctionalhealth.com to schedule your free strategy call and and see what's possible when your body finally works for you, not against you. What's slowing your business down? Is it endless emails, scheduling headaches? Repetitive tasks that steal your time? My Outdesk has your solution. Their experienced global virtual assistants handle the busy work so you can focus on strategy, growth and whatever matters to you most, from administrative support to marketing and customer service. They've got you covered at a fraction of the cost of hiring in house. Scale smarter, save bigger, get the support you need today at my Outdesk. You've also then parlayed that into business, right? Like you've become a student of everything you're investing in, everything you're touching, everything you're doing with your life insurance group, trying to help the NBA players, the MLB players. Like you've just become a student of life and said I'm gonna know this thing forward, backward, inside out.
[19:34]
Anthony Tolliver
That's I'm a forever learner. I'm going to be 80 years old trying to solve problems. And the way you solve problems is you dive deep and you just figure it out. Like you figure out what the problem is and then you go try to find solutions. And so I just try to be a problem solver, which gets me in trouble in my Marriage sometimes.
[19:57]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[19:58]
Anthony Tolliver
She's like, I don't need you to solve this problem. I need you to listen.
[20:02]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[20:03]
Anthony Tolliver
Okay, cool. My bad. Yeah, I'm sorry. It's just my nature, right. I just want to, whatever the problem is, I want to just solve it. And so. But that's definitely parlayed over into business and starting companies and, and being a part of companies. And like I said it, but I also know who I am and what I do. Like I said, I knew I wasn't a point guard. Yeah. So don't give me the ball and try to bring it up. That's not what I do.
[20:28]
Interviewer
Yeah, I can do it if I.
[20:29]
Anthony Tolliver
Need, I can do it temporarily if I need to. For a player too, that's fine. But that's not my role. And so same thing in my businesses and entrepreneurship that I've really identified and tried to stay in my lane is through just knowing my role. Even on a team, like on a business team where, hey, playing basketball, it gave me the ability to, you know, have money and do things that I can invest in and everything else and build a great portfolio. But I knew I wasn't the CEO of any of these businesses. Like I need, I need a great person who's going to be the operator. I need great people who are going to be day to day and grinding it out because that's how you do well.
[21:16]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[21:17]
Anthony Tolliver
And so I just built my entire portfolio and entire business structure on partnership and, and role playing.
[21:26]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[21:27]
Anthony Tolliver
Like I just, hey, I'm gonna come in, I'm gonna be a strategist. We can talk high level about whatever business it is. Like most businesses you can kind of talk at a high level on, especially a startup.
[21:39]
Interviewer 2
Okay.
[21:39]
Anthony Tolliver
Well, there's basic things that almost any startup you have in the world is going to have. And I have knowledge of that. But as far as like the nuances in the, in the weeds, somebody else is gonna have to take care of that. Cause that's just not what I do.
[21:52]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[21:53]
Anthony Tolliver
And so, yeah, I've just tried to parlay that same mindset into relentless hard work. I mean that, that's a common theme across my entire life. And, and just knowing my role and not stepping on toes, allowing people to do what they do.
[22:08]
Interviewer
How does that work in your marriage? Right. Because we, as hard charging entrepreneurs, as successful people as you're an NBA player, you know that you want to solve problems and you know, like hard work is going to prevail for you in all of those arenas. But in marriage with kids, it Doesn necessarily always work. So do you have a clear defined lane at home? Do you have a clear defined role with the relationship with your children? Like, do you have those conversations or you just know where you're at?
[22:34]
Anthony Tolliver
Yeah. I mean, it's so funny how with highly charged. I mean, obviously through gobundance, we're around guys like ourselves a lot, and you hear some of the same stories quite often. It's. We have a. It's pretty easy for us to communicate a vision with our people who work with us or for us or whatever. It's so much harder to do that with our wives and our kids. And I'm like, why?
[23:07]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[23:08]
Anthony Tolliver
It's like, that is your first order of business. That is. That's our main business. That's our number one business. So why is it so hard to communicate? I think it's just. I don't know. I think it's a. Sometimes we take that for granted, you know, just the fact that we have amazing wives and amazing kids and, you know, we get so locked in and focused on success outside of the home that sometimes our. Our best is given there and not in the home. And so going back to, you know, like, roles within the home, you know, I. I just try to fill gaps.
[23:46]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[23:47]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, it is very similar.
[23:48]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[23:49]
Anthony Tolliver
And that I just try to allow the what's lacking to kind of direct me and guide me. Now, also, granted, if something I hate and it's something that she doesn't mind, we try to make sure that those things are. Hey, she hates taking out the trash. I don't care. I've done it my whole life.
[24:09]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[24:09]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, so I'll take it out every single time, like, without fail. If you ask me, it's not a problem. I don't mind doing the dishes.
[24:18]
Interviewer
What do you hate?
[24:19]
Anthony Tolliver
You know, I hate being told what to do.
[24:22]
Interviewer
I was gonna say, you don't seem like a guy that hates anything.
[24:24]
Anthony Tolliver
Yeah. Like, you know, that's actually the thing I don't like. And I probably haven't done as good of a job communicating that to my wife, but it's like, what I do hate is whenever I get treated like kid.
[24:36]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[24:37]
Anthony Tolliver
It's like, you do this, you do this. I'm like, hold up, hold up. No, no, no, no. I don't mind doing any of that.
[24:44]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[24:45]
Anthony Tolliver
But please just don't direct me like, I'm your oldest child. Right. Like, I'm not. I'm not doing that.
[24:51]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[24:51]
Anthony Tolliver
Which makes me say, no, I'm not doing that. You know, but if you just say, hey, babe, could you help me out with this? Absolutely. Yeah, no problem. Like, anytime.
[25:00]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[25:00]
Anthony Tolliver
Unless you see me, I'm in the middle of doing something. I'm not going to necessarily drop that if it's something that's important now, if it's, I'm on my phone, I'm whatever, just jacking around, and you asked me to do something like that. What you're asking me is definitely more important than this. But if I'm already cleaning this, but you want me to do that, no problem. That's no problem. But just know that I'll get to it when I'm done.
[25:25]
Interviewer
Right here.
[25:26]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[25:26]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, and so those are the. Those are the, I guess the rifts that happen in my house. It's not, oh, I hate doing the dishes or I hate sweeping or mopping or I don't mind doing any of that stuff. Like, it doesn't bother me whatsoever. It's just. It's more so the approach in which I get asked to do it, which.
[25:44]
Interviewer
Is all of us, right? Like, it's all of us as people.
[25:46]
Anthony Tolliver
There's. There's some pride there.
[25:47]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[25:48]
Anthony Tolliver
You know, it's like, you know, I know that she doesn't mean anything by it. It's just that, hey, like, just. I just want to make sure that we were on the same page.
[25:54]
Interviewer
Yeah, exactly.
[25:55]
Anthony Tolliver
And.
[25:55]
Interviewer
And at the end of the day, we all have, like, these different triggers, regardless of the situation we've come from, but our spouse, for some reason, knows where the trigger is. And just like, I'm gonna put a needle there for a second. Like, let me just. Let me make sure that's still sensitive. Like, okay, good. It is.
[26:09]
Anthony Tolliver
Yeah.
[26:10]
Interviewer
Now I know how I got you.
[26:11]
Anthony Tolliver
My assistant, Taylee, she is someone who has benefited a lot. So she's single.
[26:19]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[26:19]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[26:20]
Anthony Tolliver
So, you know, obviously not, you know, getting married, like, tomorrow or anything, but what? One thing she has been able to benefit from is seeing interactions of me and my wife. And also I have a men's group called Iron Sharpens Iron. And so she kind of helps manage all of that stuff. And so when we do our retreats and different stuff, she's there, but she's usually the only woman there. And so she gets a chance to hear real conversations, dude to dude, about their relationship with their wives and stuff like that. And so she's going to be in such a unique position whenever that time does come and she gets married, to be able to, like, hear it from our perspective, because most women don't ever get that not say privilege. It sounds weird, but like, that, that's a privilege. Like, she's going to have a perspective of how her. She's interacting with her husband more than, like, with more clarity than most any woman just trying to figure it out by herself.
[27:26]
Interviewer 3
Right.
[27:26]
Anthony Tolliver
Just because she's, you know, intimately, like, in our lives. Like, she sees our interactions and she sees my frustrations with my wife, and then she sees my wife's frustrations with me, and she can kind of like, see, okay, when I do, when that does happen, I'm gonna try not to be here. I'm gonna try to be over here, or I'm gonna try to do this a little bit better or communicate this. That this bothers me. And I think that that's, you know, it's one of the best gifts that I think she's going to be able to take out of being around.
[28:01]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[28:01]
Anthony Tolliver
Being my assistant and stuff is like, not the business stuff. Like, that's great. She's learning there, but like, the personal relationship stuff that she's getting a chance to, like, get a view on right now is probably the most valuable thing she's going to get being around me. So.
[28:18]
Interviewer
Well, it's interesting is most of the time the best gifts we get don't feel like a g in the moment. And if you look at your career in the moment, bouncing around from team to team and going to all these different places probably didn't feel like a gift. But looking back, how was that a gift for you?
[28:35]
Anthony Tolliver
Well, a gift in relationships. First of all, the amount of teammates I've had, I think I chat GBT at one time, it was like 250 different, like, unique individual teammates I've had over my career, which is insane. But so a lot of different relationships, which I'm a relationships guy. I love people, I love hanging with people, I love pouring into people. I love bringing value to people. And so just being in a position where I've played for 11. I played for 11 teams in 13 years, which is the third tied for third most teams in NBA history.
[29:15]
Interviewer 3
Wow.
[29:16]
Interviewer 2
Right?
[29:16]
Anthony Tolliver
So it's a lot.
[29:17]
Interviewer
It's a lot.
[29:18]
Anthony Tolliver
It's a lot of moving around. But the blessing in disguise was, like you said, the relationships, all the different people I've been teammates with, you know, have at least loose ties with even to this day. It's priceless. And, and even just some of the, the, like the flexibility that I've been able to discover about myself through that process.
[29:43]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[29:44]
Anthony Tolliver
I can walk into a room and things can just change. And I'm cool with it. Like, all right, cool. Just roll with the punches.
[29:52]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[29:53]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, just the ability to roll with the punches and adapt to the environment is something that came from that, too. You get traded in the middle of a season, and then you go from one system. There's a playbook this thick that you have to know, and then it's like, oh, yeah, screw that. You're done with that. You're done. Now come learn this one.
[30:12]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[30:12]
Anthony Tolliver
And, oh, yeah, by the way, we're playing tomorrow.
[30:14]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[30:15]
Anthony Tolliver
Oh, crap. Okay.
[30:16]
Interviewer
But you don't have a place to live. You got to move all your clothes.
[30:19]
Interviewer 2
Right, Right.
[30:19]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, I'm. I'm playing tomorrow. I don't have any of the other stuff figured out, but, like. And also, I mean, they don't expect you to know the whole playbook by tomorrow. But there's system and there's language.
[30:31]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[30:32]
Anthony Tolliver
From one team to another, there's actually a lot of carryover.
[30:36]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[30:36]
Anthony Tolliver
Horns. There's horns, but in this language, it's horns. But over here, it's double fist.
[30:42]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[30:42]
Anthony Tolliver
Double fist versus horns. So it's like, well, okay, well, I'm in Spain tomorrow, and the next day, I'm in German. Germany. It's like, well, there's two different languages. They're saying the same thing. Yeah, well, he's got to know both languages, so you got to come and learn a whole different language, you know? And sometimes there's crossover, but most of the time, it's like, you know, that was the biggest change. And so just being able to adapt on the fly in life. My wife gets mad at me sometimes about, you know, I'm unbothered.
[31:14]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[31:15]
Interviewer
Just go with the flow.
[31:16]
Anthony Tolliver
It's like. And so for me, I'm like, well, it's not a big deal. And she's like, no. Like, no, you're different. Like, you're not like everybody else. Everybody else would be bothered right now. I'm like, whatever. I'm good.
[31:30]
Interviewer
How do you teach your kids that? Do you care to teach your kids that?
[31:33]
Anthony Tolliver
You know, and we talk about nature versus nurture. I think the ability to be unbothered. I think that's a lot of nature.
[31:41]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[31:42]
Anthony Tolliver
I don't. I don't know if you can teach it. Like, because my kids, there's really two. Two of them are unbothered, and two of them carry care very much about environment, people, like, what people think and everything else. But two of my kids are like, well, whatever. I'm doing my thing.
[32:02]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[32:02]
Anthony Tolliver
And so it is. And I've seen it really, from even a young age and all the way up through. My oldest is 12 and. But he's been like that his whole life. It made it very difficult as a parent because he didn't care what we thought. At some points where it's like, oh, my gosh, like, you gotta, you know, the goody two shoes kids, those are the ones that as babies are phenomenal because all they want to do is please you.
[32:26]
Interviewer 2
Yeah, right.
[32:27]
Anthony Tolliver
But the ones that are difficult as kids, it's almost like, you know, it's going to work out long term for them. Makes it difficult now, but, you know, long term like that, I don't care about what. None of y' all think that that helps. You know, they get older.
[32:42]
Interviewer
Who did you play with that pushed you the hardest? Like, who had the highest standards, the highest expectations?
[32:48]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, player wise?
[32:49]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[32:52]
Anthony Tolliver
I would say probably now. And it's not because he voiced it, but it's because of the environment and the culture that was built in San Antonio. Tim Duncan.
[33:05]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[33:06]
Anthony Tolliver
He never said it. He never said, hey, like, you need to work harder. Hey, hey, you need to do this or that. And a third. But it was just known, like it was the culture of being. If you're a spur, this is what you do. Like, no, we don't, we don't make mistakes. We don't, you know, we don't shoot those types of shots. We're disciplined. We don't beat ourselves.
[33:31]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[33:31]
Anthony Tolliver
And. But he was the leader of the pack and one of the best leaders I've ever seen. And I'm not sure if he ever said five words to me. I was only there for granted for half a season, right? But I'm not sure if he. Literally the whole, like the half season I was there, I'm not sure if he said five words to me, but it was clear. Yeah, the, the objective, the, the, the culture, everything was clear as day. The expectation was clear as day.
[34:02]
Interviewer
And would you say he held himself to that standard? So you just adopted it. You knew it.
[34:06]
Anthony Tolliver
There is no. No question. There was no question. There was. I remember this was my second year pro, so 2008, all the young guys come in early and, and do all the really difficult preseason workouts and stuff. So we're outside flipping tire, like throwing and flipping tires, running hills, doing sand pit workouts, doing boxing, like, all this stuff. I'm just like, this is crazy. Like, can we just play basketball? Like. But hey, I don't care. I'm just trying to make the league. I'M gonna do whatever they tell me to do. Well, we are. I guess we get there around late August. Yeah, late mid. Mid August. Mid August is when we get there. And most veterans don't show up until probably like late September. Mid to late September, because training camp would start right at the end of September. So they get there about two weeks, get up and down a little bit, kind of get their flow going a little bit, and then we go right into camp. Well, about the 1st of September, see Tim Duncan roll through. I'm like, what's up?
[35:23]
Interviewer
That's Tim Duncan?
[35:24]
Anthony Tolliver
Yeah, it's Tim Duncan. And I thought for sure he was just going to be coming and getting treatment and everything else, but this dude, now, he doesn't do it with us, but all the stuff we're doing, he starts doing like, we'll be out there flipping tires and throwing tires and doing this, and then we'll go over there to the hill. And once we're on the hill, he's out there flipping tires, throwing tires, and it's like, okay, this dude, at that point, you can make an argument he was the best player in the world.
[35:53]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[35:53]
Anthony Tolliver
You know him, Kobe, you know, young LeBron, you know, there's some pretty. But winner, right? Championship. Multiple championships at this point, multiple MVPs and all the stuff. And he's putting in the work that we're putting in, and we're rookies and sophomores, and, you know, I'm like, like, this dude's different. Like, he. This is the definition of a leader. Like I said, he didn't say five words to me, but he showed his leadership through his actions. And we had no, like, from then on, it was like, oh, I'm not complaining. Yeah, this dude is hall of Famer today. He could quit today. First ballot.
[36:36]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[36:36]
Anthony Tolliver
And he's out here doing this stuff. I'm not above this.
[36:38]
Interviewer 2
Yeah, right.
[36:39]
Anthony Tolliver
And so it just taught me a huge lesson of leadership. Like, leadership is way more than just words. It's way more than just talking to talk. It's walking the walk more then it's talking the talk. On the flip side, a few years later, I had a teammate that I'm not even going to say the name of the team because I might give it away, too. A teammate that was a great spokesman of leadership. Hey, get back. You get. Just do this. We got to be better here. But he wouldn't do it.
[37:11]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[37:13]
Anthony Tolliver
So where'd that go? Nowhere. No one listened to him. Because it didn't matter that you were saying the right thing. But you wouldn't do it. So if you're not willing to do it, we can't follow you.
[37:26]
Interviewer
So how have you applied that to business or even to parenting?
[37:31]
Anthony Tolliver
Be a leader by example. People have the saying, or I've heard other people say, do as I say, not as I do. It's the worst advice ever. It's the worst thing you could ever say to somebody because your actions speak louder than words. Everybody's heard that.
[37:48]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[37:49]
Anthony Tolliver
And that's just so true. Even if I tell my kids, hey, treat each other with respect. Treat each other, you know, treat others how you want to be treated. And I treat them like crap. And I treat my wife like crap.
[38:05]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[38:05]
Anthony Tolliver
Guess what? They're not gonna respect that. They're not gonna even do that at all. But if I never say that, if I never say, treat others with respect, but that's how I treat others, they're gonna pick that up.
[38:17]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[38:18]
Interviewer
This might take time, right?
[38:19]
Anthony Tolliver
It might take. It's gonna take time for sure. Everything does with kids.
[38:23]
Interviewer
Longer than it should.
[38:24]
Anthony Tolliver
Everything. It's like, my goodness. Hey, we get ready for bed every single night. So you tell me what we need to do next.
[38:32]
Interviewer
We still brush our teeth.
[38:33]
Anthony Tolliver
We brush our teeth. We do. Every single night. Like, why are like, oh, what else? No, you know this. Come on. But it is. It's something that, you know, I take into my marriage. I take into my parenthood every single day, every single instance. I try to. And I'm not perfect, of course. Right? None of us. None of us are. So, of course, I have my moments where I get a little angry and I might yell a little bit and everything else. So then when my kids yell at their brothers and sisters or something, I'm like, dang. Like, that's me.
[39:07]
Interviewer 3
Yeah, right.
[39:08]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, not all the time. I'm not screaming and yelling at my kids all the time, but I do it every once in a while, and they get the best of me, and I'm like, dang it. Don't let other people control your actions. And then I let them control mine, and I'm like, ah, dang it. Okay. Let me be better at that. Let me show it better than just tell it. Because if I tell them, don't let your brother, like, get you going like that. Right? Don't let your sister. Because guess what? They're going to keep doing that. If you show them that it bothers you, and then five seconds later, they're doing something, I'm like, oh, come on. Don't do that. I'm like, dang it, you know, like, I failed because I just told them not to do that, but then I did that.
[39:53]
Interviewer 2
Right, right.
[39:54]
Anthony Tolliver
And so just constantly. That's something. That's a principle that follows me every day. Every day. And I try to make sure that I do what I can to make sure my kids are constantly seeing the actions that I want them to perform or to replicate, I guess is the better way to put it. Not so much just me telling them what to do.
[40:18]
Interviewer
And you've got to play against and with, like, people listening to this, like, idolize some of these players. Right. Like, wear their shoes and they, you know, jerseys and everything. Were you ever starstruck in your career?
[40:31]
Anthony Tolliver
Every day.
[40:32]
Interviewer 3
Every day.
[40:32]
Anthony Tolliver
Every day. And as teammates, it was, you know, my rookie year. Like, I said, that was with Cleveland. You know, just going through camp every day. I was StarStruck by seeing LeBron.
[40:45]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[40:45]
Anthony Tolliver
Even though he's literally my age.
[40:47]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[40:48]
Anthony Tolliver
Is weird, but starstruck by the. The ones that you would think.
[40:54]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[40:54]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, first time I met Chris Paul. What's really crazy, the first time I met him was not the first time I met him in life, but the first time I met him as a professional, because we played against him as well growing up. And so when I met him as a professional, I'm thinking, all right, cool. I need to introduce myself. What's up, man? I'm Anthony Tolliver. Blah, blah, blah. He's like, oh, you're Toliver. You played for the Springfield Heat in aau? I was like, yeah. He's like, yeah, I remember you.
[41:28]
Interviewer
What?
[41:28]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, how in the world do you. What? That's when I found out Chris Paul has a crazy memory.
[41:36]
Interviewer 3
Really.
[41:37]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, one of the craziest I've ever seen. And I've heard stories about his memory of, like, how he remembers, like, janitors names with their kids, like, how their kid. Like, what school their kids go to. Like, and it makes sense, like, how good of a point guard he is.
[41:53]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[41:54]
Anthony Tolliver
And how smart of a. How high of a basketball IQ he has. It's like it carries over into real life. This dude remembers everything. And Springfield, he. It's not like that was, like, a famous team or something like that. Like, we were just some little tiny town, small team, and I wasn't even very good on that team. So the fact that he's, you know, could remember that, I was like, this is crazy. But meeting him for the first time, the biggest starstruck moment. 2. Biggest. 2 biggest starstruck outside of those two, was meeting Michael Jordan for the first time. And he was my boss. So I played for the Charlotte Bobcat, he owned the Bobcats. And so meeting him for the first time, I was just like, what the heck? Like, this is crazy, right? This is awesome. But there's very few people I've met that had like an aura. And he's one of them, a true aura around that man. Like just he walks in a room and everybody's like, like, holy crap. Like, that's. That's Michael Jordan, you know?
[42:55]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[42:55]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, what do you do? Like, I don't know. Like, yeah, what do I do with my hands?
[43:00]
Interviewer
Do I introduce myself? Do I sit here?
[43:02]
Interviewer 3
What should I do?
[43:02]
Anthony Tolliver
I don't know. I don't know what to do here. It's like, it's Michael Jordan and then Kobe, you know. First time I met him was on the court and it was my welcome to the NBA moment. My holy crap, I made it, my mom made it moment. And it was. I was with the warriors at this point. I think I had made it through two 10 day contracts and so they signed me for the rest of the year. So it was like my first real, holy crap, I'm in the NBA. But I had been in grind mode in like, like just not even paying attention to where I was. Just because I was so focused on the goal, trying to make it to the NBA, trying to stick everything else without like real appreciation of what was happening. Like, I'm in the NBA and I'm not only in the NBA. I'm starting for a team in the NBA. Like that's. There's 30 teams and there's five players that are starting for each team. That's 150 players in the world that start for an NBA team. And so what it really clicked was is it, I think TNT was broadcasting the game. And before the game you go around and you kind of dap everybody up and did that. I look over and I'm like, okay, I'm like dapping up Kobe. Like, holy crap. Like, I'm dapping up Kobe pregame. Like, this is, this is real. Like I'm living my dream. And it before that I, it hadn't clicked. Like that. Yes, I was in NBA. Yes I was getting paychecks and but I was just like so caught up in like trying to make it that that was like the moment I was like, wow, I'm here. Like, I've accomplished something that I never thought was even possible. And so like, you know, you know, we proceeded to lose that game because Kobe's he was ridiculous. And at that time, they were championship contending team with Pal Gasol, Andrew Bynum and all those guys. But it was just a moment that I'll never forget as well. So, yeah, I mean, those four guys probably had very specific, like, starstruck moment. And over the years, other guys too. Not as much as those four, probably, but yeah.
[45:25]
Interviewer
What made Kobe different?
[45:28]
Anthony Tolliver
Relentlessness. I compare him to a lion. You know, he wasn't the biggest. He wasn't the strongest. Like a tiger is bigger and stronger than a lion. But if they ever fought lions winning or at least the lion's going to at least fight till he dies.
[45:43]
Interviewer 3
Right.
[45:43]
Anthony Tolliver
Whereas a tiger will walk away.
[45:45]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[45:45]
Anthony Tolliver
He was like, I don't like this. I'm out.
[45:48]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[45:49]
Anthony Tolliver
Kobe to me is like a lion. Like, he was like a lion. Like, he didn't. He would sacrifice at all for the win. Like, whatever. Ankle, hands, body parts, like, sacrifice at all. Like, there's just not very many people that I ever saw play or played against that I felt that he would just absolutely do anything to win and whatever it took, he's not gonna cheat.
[46:16]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[46:17]
Anthony Tolliver
But as far as, like, hey, I. I don't care what it takes. Energy wise, I don't care what it takes, I'm going to win this game. And I just. I don't think I played against anybody else in my whole career that I felt that. That I could, like, it was like palpable. Like, you could like feel it. He could see it. Like he was willing to do anything to win. I don't know if I ever played against anybody else like that. And we all know about his work ethic, that that's been one of the most inspiring things to probably. I mean, more people than. Oh yeah, you'd ever imagine. His. His work ethic in basketball has influenced probably more business than most any. Any other business influencer. Right. So, I mean, I hear people talk about mama mentality. Yeah, Mama mentality. It's like that's just Kobe personified. One example is I know a guy who owns a roofing company in Dallas, and he was the biggest Kobe fan on the planet, and he just. Still to this day. Mama mentality.
[47:23]
Interviewer 2
Right?
[47:23]
Anthony Tolliver
Just. That's just what, you know, his mindset. And he's always thinking like he. He's thinking like he felt like Kobe would have been thinking about a roofing company.
[47:32]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[47:33]
Anthony Tolliver
Relentless. Relentless. Like, we never stop. We keep going, we keep pushing envelope. You know, everybody else is doing 10 million in sales and everybody else has 10 people that's in sales. We're going to get 20, and we're going to get 20 sales. You know what I'm saying? Like, just always pushing, going, and I mean, he's about to. He's about to exit a hundred million dollar transaction, you know, and this is five years. Hopefully.
[48:01]
Interviewer
You got to invest.
[48:02]
Anthony Tolliver
I didn't. I did not. Not on that one. But he's gonna get some insurance from me.
[48:08]
Interviewer
He'll be good.
[48:09]
Anthony Tolliver
So, hey. Yeah, we're good. We're in good shape, you know? Yeah, he's. He's doing. Doing well, but it's just the inspiration that. That Colby has left on countless people has been. Has been amazing. And then to do that through a sport. Yeah, it's crazy.
[48:27]
Interviewer
Pretty incredible.
[48:28]
Anthony Tolliver
You can't say that about anybody else. At least I can't. I don't know of any other sports figure that has influenced as much business, like, as many business people as him. Yeah, that's pretty amazing.
[48:42]
Interviewer
Yeah, it's incredible.
[48:43]
Interviewer 3
I mean.
[48:43]
Interviewer
And unfortunately, he's no longer here because I think there was a lot more work he wanted to accomplish.
[48:48]
Anthony Tolliver
Oh, yeah.
[48:48]
Interviewer
I mean, a lot more he would have accomplished. But I know you were picking up the golf clubs for a little bit.
[48:52]
Anthony Tolliver
Oh, yeah.
[48:53]
Interviewer
Did you get on Jordan's course yet, the Grove?
[48:55]
Anthony Tolliver
No, I would like to.
[48:58]
Interviewer
You and the rest of the world.
[48:59]
Anthony Tolliver
Yeah, I know it's. That's one of those where you got to know somebody that knows somebody.
[49:03]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[49:03]
Interviewer
Because, you know, some people that know.
[49:04]
Anthony Tolliver
Some people I do know. I've never pulled that trigger or tried. I've never tried to get on the course. But also, you know, I know there's a lot of people who know. Yeah, you know, some people. So maybe one day we'll see. I heard that he designed it or got it designed to fit his game, so maybe my game is similar to his game. I don't know. I don't know. I don't hit it very straight, though.
[49:31]
Interviewer
Yeah, I've hit it far.
[49:33]
Anthony Tolliver
Yeah, but not as straight. So I've heard that the way he plays, he plays more of an old man game, which is straight and not as far. He didn't hit big bombs or anything, so I might get in a lot of trouble on his course. So, you know, laying up. Laying up. Who does that? I don't do that. Like, I'm going for it. Like, how much is it to clear that water to seven? Okay.
[49:55]
Interviewer
I got this.
[49:56]
Anthony Tolliver
Let me just swing out of my pants.
[49:58]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[49:59]
Anthony Tolliver
See what happens.
[50:00]
Interviewer
But what's cool about that is And I've read a bunch about the course. Just being a big golfer, he's so competitive, and he has the financial means to stack the odds in his favor that he's like, I'm literally going to build a golf course that suits my game. So when these professional players come out and play my golf course, I have a chance to win money off of them.
[50:20]
Anthony Tolliver
Yep.
[50:21]
Interviewer
Like, it's incredible. Like, how cool is that?
[50:23]
Interviewer 3
Like, that's.
[50:23]
Interviewer
That's like one of the most badass things I've ever heard.
[50:26]
Anthony Tolliver
Yes. Yeah, that. That's real.
[50:28]
Interviewer
I mean, I built a golf course to fit my game.
[50:30]
Interviewer 2
Correct.
[50:31]
Anthony Tolliver
And whenever you, you know, you're part of history and negotiating maybe the best sports marketing deal ever with his Jordan brand, you can do that because he's clearing a hundred million dollars every single year if he does nothing or he decides to go out and do something.
[50:59]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[51:00]
Anthony Tolliver
Every single year from his deal. And, you know, according to the movie air, we. We owe a lot of that to his mom.
[51:09]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[51:09]
Interviewer 2
The.
[51:10]
Anthony Tolliver
You know, the deal that got inked. So shout out to moms. But. But yeah, man. Just what a. What an incredible story.
[51:19]
Interviewer 2
Right, that he.
[51:19]
Anthony Tolliver
He's had. Obviously becoming. If not the best. I think he's the best. But if not the best, at Last one of two best players we've ever seen on the planet.
[51:31]
Interviewer 2
And.
[51:32]
Anthony Tolliver
And to have, you know, something like that, that will never be replicated.
[51:35]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[51:36]
Anthony Tolliver
What he's done and business of basketball and basketball combination, we'll never see it again.
[51:42]
Interviewer
Why is there so much drama over, like, the best? Like, you see people, like, get into actual arguments over Kobe, LeBron, Michael. Like, why do people care.
[51:54]
Anthony Tolliver
A lot of emotion.
[51:55]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[51:56]
Anthony Tolliver
I think especially Kobe.
[51:58]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[51:59]
Anthony Tolliver
Because especially now he's gone. And a lot of people. He. Me. He meant a lot to a lot. A lot of people. So I don't even have those discussion with people because I know that it could actually become offensive to them.
[52:13]
Interviewer
Like, very triggering.
[52:15]
Anthony Tolliver
Right. Like, and especially for him, like, not as much LeBron and Mike because they're, you know, they're both there, it's not as much emotion attached to either one of them.
[52:24]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[52:25]
Anthony Tolliver
But for Kobe, there's a lot of it. So when people say, oh, yeah, you know, you know, if they feel a certain type of way about Kobe, we're not having a basketball conversation. You're not gonna like. You're not gonna like my positioning of where I feel like he is all time. Like, it's just not just because I'm, you know, that's just Not. Yeah, you're not gonna like it.
[52:44]
Interviewer
No.
[52:44]
Anthony Tolliver
So I love Kobe.
[52:46]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[52:47]
Anthony Tolliver
That's where we're gonna leave it.
[52:47]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[52:48]
Interviewer
You know, it's like, political. It's like, kind of.
[52:49]
Anthony Tolliver
Exactly. No, it. It. It gets there. I've seen some real heavy and emotional conversations when it came to, you know, Kobe, LeBron, Michael, and, like, all the such. And so, yeah, it's crazy. And first of all, different eras, different times, you can't compare.
[53:10]
Interviewer 2
Right?
[53:11]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, it's just not. You can hypothetically compare, but there's no way to really ever know, you know, would Michael do better or worse in today's game? Some people say better, some people say worse. I don't know.
[53:25]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[53:25]
Anthony Tolliver
We don't know. Some people say LeBron could never play in the 80s. He's too weak. Have you seen him? Yeah, he's not weak. He plays the game as it is played today. Not that he's. Would he be flopping in the 80s? Absolutely not. But he's a freaking freight train.
[53:43]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[53:44]
Anthony Tolliver
You can't tell me that he couldn't play in the 80s. You kidding me? He's bigger than all of them. He's bigger than the power forwards that were playing back then.
[53:51]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[53:51]
Anthony Tolliver
So how in the world do you feel like he couldn't play?
[53:54]
Interviewer 3
Right.
[53:54]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, you're crazy. It's just like, that's. Whenever I'm like, okay, I can't have a real conversation with this guy about this because he's, like, in this. He's in his own world of, like, reality of, like, if you don't think that he could play in today's game, or, sorry, if you don't think he could play in the 80s or 90s because of the toughness, you're crazy. If you don't think that Michael couldn't come in today's game and succeed, you're crazy.
[54:17]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[54:17]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, they're like, oh, Michael would only be a DeMaro DeRozan in today's game. I'm like, oh, my gosh, what a disrespect.
[54:23]
Interviewer 2
Right?
[54:24]
Anthony Tolliver
You guys have no. You really don't know the game if you think that that is the case, and vice versa, that LeBron would go back in the 80s and be irrelevant. Like, you're. You're discounting both of their greatnesses. And if you. If you say that LeBron's better, I respect your opinion. Yeah, if you say Michael's better, I respect your opinion. Like, I don't really care what you say.
[54:45]
Interviewer
Doesn't matter.
[54:45]
Anthony Tolliver
Doesn't matter, because it there's no. There's no right or wrong answer.
[54:48]
Interviewer
No. And I still got to get up in the morning and put my socks on and go to work and feed my kids.
[54:53]
Anthony Tolliver
What the heck am I going to sit here and waste my breath with you about, you know, who's better? Like, I'm going to. I have my opinions, and I give you my opinions with facts and with stats and with the things that help my argument. And you can give me yours all day.
[55:08]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[55:08]
Anthony Tolliver
That's cool. And there's a legitimate argument for. To me, between those two.
[55:13]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[55:14]
Anthony Tolliver
Everybody else is like, it's LeBron and Mike and then everybody else.
[55:18]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[55:18]
Anthony Tolliver
And it's not even close to me, but, you know, you can go back and forth with those two all day long.
[55:25]
Interviewer
What was it like working for Michael Jordan? Probably wasn't around.
[55:31]
Anthony Tolliver
He was around some. I don't know, it wasn't like, anything that stands out, meaning, like, oh, my gosh, like, we got a chance to do certain things because Mike was the owner versus somebody else. The. The biggest positive was the fact that Michael Jordan was our boss and we got a chance to see him sometimes.
[55:56]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[55:57]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, that was really the biggest perk, is that he was around. And we went to a gala of his to. It's like a fundraising gala or whatever. And he was there and, you know, got these cards that were written and he signed them. It's like, well, that's cool. His signature. I'm not going to go up to him in the locker room and say, hey, can I. Can you sign this for me? But, like, if anything, like, those are maybe the only great things about it was that got to be around him a little bit, get to know him a little bit. And then did he ever share his.
[56:32]
Interviewer
Perspective on basketball, like, give you advice, give you pointers, give the team pointers, or just kind of let the coaches do that and stayed out.
[56:38]
Anthony Tolliver
He would mainly let the coaches do that. I mean, he would have some broad generalizations kind of in the locker room or. Sorry, in, like, the training room. Because he wouldn't come in the locker room.
[56:48]
Interviewer 3
Right.
[56:49]
Anthony Tolliver
But in the training room, he would. He would kind of have those conversations a little bit with, like, the main guys, like Kimba Walker and Al Jefferson and Gerald Henderson and those guys, because those are, like, our main guys. But, you know, for a guy like me, you know. No, he's not. Hey, you need to. He wouldn't. I mean, sounds crazy. He actually wouldn't know how to relate with a guy like me.
[57:14]
Interviewer 3
Right.
[57:15]
Anthony Tolliver
Because, like, what he was doing and how he was doing, it was night and day different than what the heck I do and what guys like myself do. Like, of course I'm going to take advice from Michael Jordan if he gave me advice, but he, you know, there's never really any advice that he would have given me because it was like, you've never dealt with a DNP, Michael Jordan, like, now playing, you know, playing 20 minutes after getting three DMPs in a row, it's like, I can relate better to a guy in that position than you can.
[57:53]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[57:54]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[57:54]
Anthony Tolliver
Because I can give you some pointers and mindsets to work through that. Just like he was better suited to talk to Kimba and Al Jefferson how to lead a team in the playoffs.
[58:05]
Interviewer 2
Right, right.
[58:06]
Anthony Tolliver
Because that's what he did. So that was, you know, never. Never direct advice to me or.
[58:15]
Interviewer 2
But.
[58:15]
Anthony Tolliver
But some to, you know, team just in general, but never anything like, you know, crazy.
[58:21]
Interviewer
And then what are your thoughts on LeBron playing with his son? Like, I personally think it's one of the coolest things. I don't care how his son got there. I don't care. I mean, to be playing basketball at his age, at his level, to say he played with his son is incredible. But there's people that are super triggered by this.
[58:36]
Anthony Tolliver
Yeah. Once again, it's. You know, there's a lot of emotional people in the world. If you own a company and you have the ability to bring your son along in the. In the business.
[58:55]
Interviewer 2
You'Re gonna do it, right?
[58:56]
Interviewer 3
Of course. Same thing.
[58:59]
Anthony Tolliver
Same thing.
[58:59]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[59:00]
Anthony Tolliver
It's. LeBron didn't own the NBA, but LeBron is the face of the NBA, and he has been for a long time. So if you have the ability and the power to bring your son along and help maybe get him an opportunity that maybe wouldn't get otherwise, you're going to do it.
[59:21]
Interviewer 3
Of course.
[59:22]
Anthony Tolliver
So anybody who is adamantly against this and. But therefore that CEO having some nepotism and helping his son get into that company, then they're hypocrites.
[59:40]
Interviewer 3
Yeah, right.
[59:40]
Interviewer
Same thing.
[59:41]
Anthony Tolliver
It's the same thing. It's the same exact thing.
[59:43]
Interviewer
What was the transition from basketball to business like for you? I mean, when did you make that transition and then what was that like?
[59:51]
Anthony Tolliver
It was. It was something that I never really made a transition because from year one, I began, I guess, my journey as a businessman, as a real estate investor, and different things. I think by year three, I was investing in businesses, but year one and two was like, hey, how can I get some money to Invest in real estate. And so, you know, the transition kind of happened gradually throughout because I didn't know if I was going to play professionally for one or two years or 20 years. Yeah, it could have been one or two or it could have been 20. I. I didn't know. So every year I treated as my last. And so I invested and saved and. And I kept my expenses low and everything else every single year because I knew this is my only year where I make money, then I want to make sure that I at least have something to show for it kind of moving forward. So if I have to go get a 9 to 5 or go to the job, then I'm ready, I can do that and I have something to show for it and have an investment or two that I've made with my money. So year two comes and same mindset, Year three comes, same mindset. And then start investing in businesses in year four or five, six. Fast forward through 14 years. I build a portfolio of around 50 companies at that point, right? 50 different investments. Not just all startups, but just mix between startups that I either help start or help fund, and some private equity, some. Some different businesses that I got, I was blessed to start or be a part of, and then real estate. And so to me, at that point, I'm like, okay, well, now I have an amazing portfolio that I've been able to build with this mindset that never changed from year one through year 14. And so when year 14 ended and I knew the writing was on the wall at that point, that it was pretty close if not done, I just was able to very much so do what I've been doing, but just kind of do it more often from a standpoint of supporting the businesses that I'm invested in, supporting and helping the businesses that I help start. And just easily. I say easily. I mean, it wasn't easy because it's still a transition, but a much, much more smooth transition than I would say, your average athlete. Just because I had already done this in my free time outside of basketball, I get my shots up, I do my lifting, I do everything that I need to do for my job. You still have a lot of time left with the rest of the day. And so I didn't just fill it with video games or whatever, which is fine. You know, a lot of guys do that. That's great. But for me, I'm reading books, right? I'm listening to podcasts. I'm learning and trying to grow in whatever spaces that I'm in. New industry, I Love diving into new industries because it's like, hey, it's fascinating. It's a whole different exotic animals. Right. Oh, that's amazing.
[63:07]
Interviewer 2
Right?
[63:08]
Anthony Tolliver
That's awesome. Because that's something I have no clue about. But if I go watch some YouTube videos about it or watch some podcasts or read some books about it, it's like, now, like, will I go do it? Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. But at least I have some knowledge about it. And so when we talk about it next time or the next time, we can have a real conversation around it, because I've now done the research, but that is how I love that. I love just learning and so just going through that process and. And everything else. So, you know, whenever I was done, it was, like I said, it was more seamless of a transition just because, you know, I had prepared for it, but also I knew that now I have more time to learn and dive into some of these things that I'm already in.
[63:54]
Interviewer
Well, what I hear you saying is your identity was never the NBA. You were always Anthony Toliver who happened to play in the NBA, but you weren't an NBA player named Anthony Toliver.
[64:05]
Anthony Tolliver
Correct.
[64:05]
Interviewer
There's a big differentiator there. So for you, the transition wasn't quite as hard as it might be for others, because you had an identity you were comfortable and confident in outside of the game of basketball.
[64:16]
Interviewer 2
Yeah.
[64:16]
Anthony Tolliver
I mean, that. That's 99% of it.
[64:21]
Interviewer 3
Yeah. Yeah.
[64:22]
Interviewer
The 1% was hard.
[64:23]
Anthony Tolliver
Yeah. Yeah. 1% was hard, for sure. Because it's. You do something your entire life.
[64:27]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[64:28]
Anthony Tolliver
And then one day it stops, and you have no control over it because it's. I could have definitely played overseas or back to the D League or whatever, but I'm like, nah. Like, my kids are young, and I'm trying to be here for them, but, yeah, the identity piece is so huge. It was never. Basketball was never my identity, even as a kid. It was never my identity. It was more. So I just love to do it. I just love to play this game. And once I played in the NBA and everything else, it was. By the time I got to the NBA, I looked at it as a tool.
[65:08]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[65:08]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, I look at money, like, I look at it as a tool. It is not. I don't. I'm not obsessed with it. I don't worship it. It's like, money's a tool, and I want to have a bunch of tools.
[65:19]
Interviewer 3
Right.
[65:20]
Anthony Tolliver
That's it. And so, same thing with basketball. It's like this game is a tool, and I'm going to use it to my. Me and my family's advantage for as long as I can. And when it stops, that's okay. Guess what? It goes back to being a sport that I can watch and enjoy and have no resentment, no regrets, no nothing. Because I gave it everything.
[65:43]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[65:44]
Anthony Tolliver
And I got more than I could ever imagine out of it. And so now I watch. As a fan, People are like, is it hard to go to an NBA game? I'm like, absolutely not. You know why? Because I get a chance to get my popcorn.
[65:57]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[65:58]
Anthony Tolliver
Sip on some bourbon and, like, this is great.
[66:01]
Interviewer
Unattached to the outcome. I don't care.
[66:03]
Anthony Tolliver
I don't care who wins.
[66:04]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[66:05]
Interviewer
He made a mistake.
[66:05]
Anthony Tolliver
Not my problem exactly. Like, I just want to watch good basketball and, you know, and. And hang out and be a fan, just like you're a fan, just like everybody else in here. I get a chance to enjoy it, just like you. I have a different appreciation for it than you do, because I've been there.
[66:22]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[66:22]
Anthony Tolliver
And I've been on that court, and I know how much you have to do to be on that court.
[66:27]
Interviewer 3
Right.
[66:28]
Anthony Tolliver
So even the people who are struggling, there's a different level of empathy that I have for those guys because I'm like, dang, I've been there.
[66:34]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[66:35]
Anthony Tolliver
I've been over six. I've been over 10 in a game. It sucks. And it feels like the weight of the world's on your back. And so just seeing those guys and you hear the fans booing them, and I'm like, oh, gosh. Like, yeah. So there's a different. Like, I don't ever boo anybody.
[66:50]
Interviewer 3
Right.
[66:50]
Anthony Tolliver
Because I, like, I know how hard that crap is.
[66:52]
Interviewer 3
Yeah. Yeah.
[66:53]
Anthony Tolliver
You know, and I don't ever, you know, because guess what? Also, we're humans.
[66:58]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[66:59]
Anthony Tolliver
And we have things going on in life. So this guy who looks like he's sluggish and it looks like he's, you know, not going hard. Dude, his wife might have just had a miscarriage.
[67:12]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[67:12]
Interviewer
You don't know what to.
[67:13]
Anthony Tolliver
You don't know.
[67:14]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[67:15]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[67:15]
Anthony Tolliver
His. For me, you know, I went back two weeks after my mom passed. I'm on the court trying to perform, and I can't make a shot.
[67:22]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[67:22]
Anthony Tolliver
It's like, well, I can't focus.
[67:24]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[67:25]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[67:25]
Anthony Tolliver
It's like. But, yeah, people will see the little headline. Oh, yeah. Personal reasons. He's out. But a lot of times it says personal reasons. Doesn't say what.
[67:33]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[67:33]
Anthony Tolliver
It could be anything.
[67:34]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[67:35]
Anthony Tolliver
Well, he Comes back, and they expect him to perform at the highest level. It's like, well, like, have you ever tried to perform whenever you're. The person who's the most important to you is sick and is in the process of dying?
[67:49]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[67:50]
Anthony Tolliver
Have you ever had your job say, I don't care about that. Like, you still got to perform sucks.
[67:56]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[67:56]
Anthony Tolliver
It's not a fun situation to be in. And so there's just a level of empathy that I have for guys who are struggling on the court, because I just literally give them the benefit of the doubt every single time. And it's not just them. It's. It's people.
[68:11]
Interviewer 3
Yeah. Just give people.
[68:12]
Anthony Tolliver
Just humans. Like, whenever I. The other day, I was driving and, you know, in the parking lot, you know how one car goes and kind of another car, and you kind of have a. A rhythm of merging? And so, like, I was up next, and so I went to go, and there's this car that just, like, saw me, sped up, and looked at me like I was in the wrong. Like, what are you doing? I'm. I just look at him and say, yeah. Instead of being like, yeah. You know, like, oh, get out. And like, first of all, you're in Texas. You might get shot.
[68:45]
Interviewer
You might get shot. But you do have an advantage. You get out, you're not.
[68:47]
Anthony Tolliver
Oh, yeah, you got an advantage. Well, I have an advantage, but also a disadvantage because if they see me, they might get.
[68:53]
Interviewer
They might shoot you.
[68:54]
Anthony Tolliver
They might just shoot me because I'm scared.
[68:55]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[68:56]
Interviewer
But this guy's six, nine. Holy.
[68:58]
Anthony Tolliver
You're like, I'm. I'm afraid for my life. I'm shooting him. So that's another reason why I don't get out of my car.
[69:05]
Interviewer 3
So.
[69:05]
Anthony Tolliver
But anyways, my first thought was not like, f you. It was like, man, that guy might be having a bad day.
[69:12]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[69:12]
Anthony Tolliver
And what was awesome is my daughter got a chance to see that because I was dropping off. Dropping her off to our soccer game, and I was like, you know what? He might just be. He might just be struggling right now.
[69:23]
Interviewer
Racing to the hospital. Who knows?
[69:25]
Anthony Tolliver
I don't know.
[69:25]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[69:26]
Anthony Tolliver
But instead of me getting pissed, I was able to show what we talked about earlier. I was able to show empathy and show like, hey, you know what? Even though that guy's in the wrong 100%, but it's okay.
[69:39]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[69:40]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, doesn't really change anything. Like, I'm not. Like, it doesn't change where we're going, how we're going. It delayed us by 10 seconds, maybe Max so who cares? And I'm just going to show him love and, like, it's all good. Yeah, my fault.
[69:56]
Interviewer
Yeah, my bad.
[69:57]
Anthony Tolliver
My bad. It's all good, brother.
[69:58]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[69:58]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, you know, whatever. Whatever's going on, it's all good.
[70:01]
Interviewer
One of my favorite stories is how you got into the gobundance community. I mean, you went above and beyond to attend an event just outside of Atlanta. Tell me a little bit about what GoBundance has done for you and how getting into the community has helped you.
[70:14]
Anthony Tolliver
Yeah, man, it's been. It's been really awesome. You know, playing in the league and being around basketball my whole life. My. My loose ties and close ties. You know, at one point, we're almost all basketball related.
[70:31]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[70:32]
Anthony Tolliver
Which is fine, especially if you want to be in basketball in some way, shape or form. If I wanted to coach or GM or whatever. All right, well, that network is perfect for that. But I've never desired to do any of that. After I was done with basketball, I was like, I'm done with basketball. Not because I don't love it, but it's because I don't. I think I have the desire to, and I have the ability to do more. Not to say that there's anything wrong with being a coach. There's nothing wrong with being a gm. Noble work. It's hard. It's challenging. I think I could be good at both of those things. That'd be great. But I'm like, there are way bigger salt, way bigger problems to solve and way bigger impact. I feel like I can do out here.
[71:22]
Interviewer 2
Yeah, right.
[71:23]
Anthony Tolliver
In the business world. So when I got introduced to gobundance, it was intriguing to me because I was like, I want to have a. Continue to build a vast network of businessmen and women. And so I felt like something like gobundance would be a good fit for me because I was like. Like, I said it for. For me right now, and if I picked up my phone and went to our group chat and said, hey, I need a lawyer in south Florida that specializes in divorces within 45 seconds, I'm sure I got three or four references. Why is that valuable? Well, I don't want to have to just Google it. I want the best of the best. I want really good people.
[72:11]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[72:12]
Anthony Tolliver
And so within this network, even if it's loose ties, even if I never develop a super close relationship with one person in our group, the. The value of the loose ties is worth every penny that we pay.
[72:25]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[72:26]
Anthony Tolliver
And then. Then you build on. On those relationships, and then now it Just becomes massively more valuable than just having a, you know, speed dial to kind of any and all, you know, types of businesses and oh, I want to invest in a RV park.
[72:46]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[72:46]
Anthony Tolliver
I don't know much about RV parks, but if I go into our network right now, there are some high level RV park people that I could either invest with or, hey, can we jump on a zoom? I want to just pick your brain on RV parks. Can you give me the lowdown, positives and negatives, the ups and the downs? I could just chat GPT it.
[73:05]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[73:06]
Anthony Tolliver
That could give me a certain level of knowledge. But there's also real world knowledge that we're getting from humans.
[73:13]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[73:13]
Anthony Tolliver
That is going to be more valuable, you know, long term and, and probably more thorough with real life experience, not just computer telling you what, you know, what to look for in RV park investing. So like I said, it's just, it became such a cool way to expand my network to learn about different industries and different types of investments. And yeah, I've done some deals within the group, but that was never my focus.
[73:47]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[73:48]
Anthony Tolliver
You know, I'm sure for the guys who focused on I want to get deal flow, they've had plenty of that.
[73:55]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[73:56]
Interviewer
Probably a lot of bad stuff too, unfortunately.
[73:57]
Anthony Tolliver
I mean, but that's business comes and goes. That's business. Like you and I, anybody who has ever been an investor, you've had good things that have worked and you've had bad things.
[74:07]
Interviewer
But if you, if you show up to a community with one intent and one intent in mind, you're automatically going to be blind to seeing the bad. Like, because you're only looking for deals. Like, I just need to do deals, I need to do deals. And so any deal that comes across, you're like, oh, I like that. Oh, I like that. Oh, I like that.
[74:22]
Anthony Tolliver
Yep.
[74:23]
Interviewer
You showed up to say, I'm gonna build a network. And then deals were a byproduct of the network.
[74:26]
Anthony Tolliver
Correct.
[74:27]
Interviewer
But you were also able to vet those deals through the network inside of the network that you've already built.
[74:31]
Anthony Tolliver
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's, there's, there's value in brain trusts.
[74:37]
Interviewer
Yes.
[74:37]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[74:37]
Anthony Tolliver
There's value in brain trust, like the ability to go into a situation. You can easily be blinded by what you want to see. Always. Like, because we're, this is how we are.
[74:52]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[74:53]
Anthony Tolliver
You see something like, I really like this and I don't want to see it any other way. But then when you start to bring in other people and other people's opinions and other People's questions. And you're like, oh, wow. I didn't even think about that. I didn't even think about asking that question. Maybe we should go back and ask those questions.
[75:09]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[75:09]
Anthony Tolliver
And when you start doing that, that's whenever you can get a better understanding. Doesn't mean it's going to be perfect. You can all get it wrong.
[75:20]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[75:20]
Anthony Tolliver
Because there's plenty of deals where, hey, there's 50 of us or 20 of us or five of us that have decided we're going to do this, and it looks amazing and it's perfect. And then socioeconomic situation happens, tariffs happen, this, that, whatever, and then all of a sudden, doesn't work out. It doesn't work.
[75:40]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[75:40]
Anthony Tolliver
You know, I invested in a group fitness concept similar to. What's the big one?
[75:48]
Interviewer
Like Orange Theory.
[75:49]
Anthony Tolliver
Orange Theory. Similar to Orange theory in about 2000, maybe 16, 20, 17. Trajectory up, trajectory up. And not. Not just trajectory on paper, but it was trending right in the right direction. I actually invested at the corporate level, so I invested in a location with some people, and then I invested at the corporate level, so I had ownership at the corporate level. I'm thinking. Amazing.
[76:15]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[76:16]
Anthony Tolliver
This might end up being one of the biggest and best deals I've ever done. Guess what? Covid happened and hit us at a time in which, you know, ebbs and flows of cash. Cash flow.
[76:29]
Interviewer 3
Yep.
[76:31]
Anthony Tolliver
Was a flow. Or the ebbs. Ebbs and flows.
[76:33]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[76:34]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, it's the. One of the downflows.
[76:36]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[76:36]
Anthony Tolliver
Of cash flow during COVID And when you're a group fitness concept with very little cash and you don't have a way to bring money in because everybody is on pause because we can't even work out together because we don't know what the heck this Covid thing is.
[76:53]
Interviewer 3
Right.
[76:55]
Anthony Tolliver
It sunk it.
[76:55]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[76:56]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[76:56]
Anthony Tolliver
And we weren't. It was never able to recover. And that was a big investment.
[77:01]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[77:01]
Anthony Tolliver
And so I'm like, oh, gosh dang it. You know, but if you would have asked me in 2016, 17, 18, 19 about that deal and everybody, all of us who went in together, oh, this is great. And it's gonna be amazing over the next five years. By 2025, right now, we should have been exiting.
[77:19]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[77:19]
Interviewer
And you probably would have had there not been a pandemic.
[77:21]
Anthony Tolliver
We would have. But, like, there's no way that you can predict what has happened for that particular business that put that business out. But guess what? On the other side of it, that's why you need to diversify.
[77:32]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[77:34]
Anthony Tolliver
Big Blanket, we had just started right before COVID Big blanket comes out. And guess what? During COVID there's disposable income that's, you know, that gets spent mainly online, even Amazon. Everything else just went. Started going crazy. Well, that took us from a startup to, you know, I think first year we. We wanted to do a million in sales. We did 2.9.
[78:02]
Interviewer 3
Wow.
[78:02]
Interviewer 2
Right?
[78:03]
Anthony Tolliver
Next year we're like, man, if we can do 10 million next year. Phenomenal. 21.
[78:07]
Interviewer 3
Wow.
[78:08]
Interviewer 2
Right?
[78:08]
Anthony Tolliver
And we're like, what do we got here? Like, what are blankets, really?
[78:13]
Interviewer
Yeah, big blankets.
[78:14]
Anthony Tolliver
Big blankets are really this in demand. Like, this is crazy. And so on that trajectory up, private equity started seeing what we're doing. After a few years, they're like, oh, yeah, we want in. And we're like, ah, man, it was almost like this is a rocket ship. We don't need their money.
[78:33]
Interviewer 3
Right, Right.
[78:34]
Anthony Tolliver
But we're like, ah, let's just take some chips off the table. And sure enough, made the great decision, because I'm talking within three months of their investment. Within three months, it was shipping containers and all these different things just started popping up. Cost of goods sold. I mean, right now we're seeing it again with tariffs, but, like, cost of goods sold. All of a sudden, like, our entire margin was gone.
[79:01]
Interviewer 3
Wow.
[79:01]
Anthony Tolliver
Like overnight. And we're like, holy crap. Thank you, Jesus. That we recapitalized at the time. We did. Because otherwise might have been gone too. It. It. We might have died. Like, the company might have just disappeared. Because with private equity involved now, now we have capital, and now we have backing to keep us afloat. And so. But like I said, the. The co. Covid destroyed one of my biggest investments, but it also made something that I invested very little into. An adx.
[79:35]
Interviewer 3
Yeah. That's insane.
[79:37]
Anthony Tolliver
Like that, right? Like in a year and a half.
[79:39]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[79:39]
Anthony Tolliver
So, you know, that's where it becomes like, okay, it's gonna happen. Like, your crap's gonna happen. It's gonna suck sometimes. But if you're just all. If you're all in on one thing, well, then you're subject to that one thing.
[79:52]
Interviewer 3
Right.
[79:52]
Anthony Tolliver
And that's where, you know, the diversification is very important. So I'm. I've always been a big, big believer in putting some eggs over here and some eggs over here and some eggs over here.
[80:02]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[80:03]
Anthony Tolliver
Just so that whenever things get weird, if real. Real estate's been weird for a while. So if I was all in on real estate and that's all I did, I would, you know, who Knows it'd be nervous wreck if. If all I did was flip houses or if all I did was have apartment buildings. Right now would be a weird time because there's a lot of things that just don't work.
[80:26]
Interviewer 3
Yep.
[80:26]
Anthony Tolliver
Anymore. So. But, you know, having a diversification, I'm like, I'm good.
[80:31]
Interviewer 3
I'm good.
[80:32]
Interviewer
Well, and what's neat about that to me is you recognize that when you play the game, you're gonna lose. Sometimes that's a part of playing the game.
[80:40]
Anthony Tolliver
Yep.
[80:40]
Interviewer
But you can't win if you're not in the game.
[80:43]
Anthony Tolliver
Absolutely.
[80:43]
Interviewer
You're guaranteed a loss if you're not in the game.
[80:45]
Anthony Tolliver
Absolutely. You miss 100% of the shots. You don't exactly.
[80:50]
Interviewer
I miss 100% of shots I do take in basketball.
[80:53]
Interviewer 3
Terrible.
[80:54]
Interviewer
Terrible. So what's next for you? Like, what are you working on now? What are you excited about? What's this next evolution of Anthony Toliver?
[81:01]
Anthony Tolliver
Well, it's. I don't think that the. The base of who I am and what I do is ever going to change. I just try to solve problems, you know, especially in business. It's like big blanket. It. I didn't come up with the idea. I seeded the company to. To get it going. But it was a problem. It was. It wasn't really a problem that everybody really knew about. We made it aware. We made everybody aware of the problem. That blankets were too small.
[81:35]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[81:35]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[81:35]
Anthony Tolliver
And so it was like, that one's a little bit different because it wasn't like, hey, this is life or death, or this is. But, hey, guys, guess what? There's a problem. You don't even realize it until we educate you on it. Blankets are too small. And people are like, man, you right? Like, I can't cover my toes and my chest at the same time with a throw blanket. That's stupid.
[81:56]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[81:57]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, why do you have a blanket that can't cover your body? And so anyways, we've always. I've always had a lot of success solving problems. And sometimes, you know, big problems and sometimes small problems. Small problems usually mean small paydays. Solve big problems. Typically, it's going to be bigger paydays.
[82:18]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[82:19]
Anthony Tolliver
And so, you know, right now, with kind of leaving the NBA, I tried to get life insurance, and that ended up turning into this big fiasco. They denied me from all the different companies. And so that turned into a problem. And that was like, huh, well, this is a problem. I could ignore it. Once I got my insurance, I could ignore it. Or I could go Try to do something about it. And so that's what I've really dedicated the last couple of years to is, is solving problems within specifically the athlete community and insurance and life insurance. And we've come up with some incredible strategies and now trying to get those implemented. Now that's a whole nother, you know, problem to solve. Red tape, politics. Red tape and politics and all the things that you have to do to be able to solve it at the root level, meaning with the MBPA or with the NBA or any of those entities in order to provide something like what we are doing at that level. It's crazy, right? It is a lot, but it's a long term lifetime legacy play. So I'm like, I don't care if it takes me five years. I'm 45 years old in five years. And if we can do it by the time I'm 45, obviously we're going to reap the benefits from it. But also it's like, I don't care if we do this when I'm 65. Of course I don't want to wait 25 years. But it's like, if we are able to accomplish this, this is a legacy play. This is something that my kids, kids and kids, kids will eat off of.
[84:07]
Interviewer 2
Yeah, right.
[84:08]
Anthony Tolliver
And will be a part of. Because I hope your granddad, you know, was a part of that deal that provided life insurance for the entire NBA or the entire MLB or PGA or whatever. Yeah, like that's, that's a, that's a big deal.
[84:23]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[84:23]
Anthony Tolliver
And so it's not about the money. Like I'll make a butt ton of money doing it, but it's not about that. It's about the legacy that comes with it and leaving a legacy and a mark on people's lives. Like, I truly believe that everybody should have life insurance. That's just my, my thought process. Or at least have the ability to have it.
[84:41]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[84:41]
Anthony Tolliver
And if you want it, great. If you don't, then it's all good. But at least have the ability to obtain it and, and use it as a tool to help pass down generational wealth. On the financial side.
[84:54]
Interviewer 3
Right.
[84:55]
Anthony Tolliver
Generational wealth is a whole nother, you know, subject that I have, you know, probably different opinions than most people, but money is just one piece of that.
[85:05]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[85:06]
Anthony Tolliver
For me, especially being African American, like being one of the first generations that really, I don't have limits on what I can do in this world, like, that is crazy to say. My dad was 19 when Martin Luther King got killed. 19. He was almost like 19's a grown man.
[85:28]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[85:29]
Anthony Tolliver
So when Martin Luther King got killed, which we know what the world was like then.
[85:33]
Interviewer 2
Right?
[85:34]
Anthony Tolliver
That's great. That's my dad. Not my granddad or my great granddad. Yeah, my dad. So to know the history of this country and to know the obstacles that he had to face as a young man and as a grown man and, like, to be real, he did not have the opportunity to build wealth. He didn't. Because there were a lot of barriers put in place that prevented him from being able to do that. And so, like, to know that I am literally a part of one of the first generations of African Americans that I. I don't feel like there's any limits on what I can go do for my family. Like, that are put upon me.
[86:20]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[86:20]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, my limits are myself, my capital, and what I have access to.
[86:24]
Interviewer
Yeah.
[86:24]
Anthony Tolliver
And your time and my time. Like, that's my limits. Like, not governmental. There's no governmental limit. There's no redlining. There's no, you know, I'm saying, like, there's no things that are, like, going against me being able to build for my family. So there's a certain level of responsibility that I feel that I have to do that and to build a foundation for my family, for my kids and their kids and their kids to be able to build upon. And so the way I'm just viewing everything is not quite with the same freedom. I don't know. I'm free, but you know what I'm saying, like, I just know there's a. There's a. There's a weight that's on my shoulders for my family, for my kids, and for. And everybody else that, like, that I carry voluntarily.
[87:16]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[87:17]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[87:17]
Anthony Tolliver
Like, I want this weight because now, like, I'm gonna go try to build upon that. So then they can now take that and go to the moon with it so that they literally, you know, can. Can go build that true generational wealth if they choose. If they choose. Not. Not mandatory.
[87:35]
Interviewer 3
Right.
[87:36]
Anthony Tolliver
Not. Oh, well, you got to come run my business. Like, our, you know, company at Legacy. It's not like my kids have to get into the life insurance business whenever they get older, because that's daddy's business. It's like, if they don't want to do it and, you know. All right, well, whoever, you know, my partner say, either buy me out.
[87:53]
Interviewer 3
Yep.
[87:54]
Anthony Tolliver
You know, or something like. Because, like, they don't want to do it.
[87:57]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[87:57]
Anthony Tolliver
If they don't want to do it, then there's no point like, just sell it and move on.
[88:02]
Interviewer 2
Right.
[88:02]
Anthony Tolliver
Or if there's nothing to sell, then it was in, like, whatever. Like, if it. If it's done well and there's no reoccurring revenue and there's nothing to really sell, and, all right, we're out. You know, like, that's. But to me, it's. That's. That's what I'm working towards, and that's, you know, way, way more important to me than anything I ever did playing basketball. Like, none of that. That was just a tool to help me get here. Yeah, that was a tool to help me build the relationships, to be able to build the knowledge base and to build a legacy, play for my kids and for their kids and everything else. So.
[88:40]
Interviewer 3
Yeah.
[88:41]
Interviewer
Well, look, man, it's been a pleasure. I absolutely love how you show up in every conversation, every room I've seen you walk in. You show up as a student, you show up kind, you show up humble, but you show up determined to get what you want from that room. Knowledge, network, connections, relationships, basketball. If it's basketball, it's been a pleasure talking to you today, man.
[89:00]
Anthony Tolliver
Yeah, it was awesome. Thanks. And one of the most organic conversations and. And. And. And podcasts I've ever been on. I don't. I don't think we ever said action, did we?
[89:11]
Interviewer
Nope.
[89:13]
Anthony Tolliver
We just went straight into. Man, that's awesome. I mean, that's the most authentic, right? Like, you talk about just authentic. It. I literally, it. It was probably 20 minutes into our conversation that I realized, like, I bet you were just probably recording this whole thing, like, because we never stopped and said, okay, let's start. Like, I was like, okay, I'm assuming the record.
[89:34]
Interviewer 3
Yeah. We're just going to keep going.
[89:35]
Interviewer
Well, I appreciate you, man.
[89:36]
Anthony Tolliver
Of course, of course.