024: Emily Harrington-Cheney | How To SAVE Your Relationship! Without Yelling, Avoiding, Or Shutting Down l The Matt King Show

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Matt King Show | Ep. 024: Emily Harrington-Cheney – "How To SAVE Your Relationship! Without Yelling, Avoiding, Or Shutting Down"

Main Theme & Purpose

In this insightful episode, Matt King sits down with therapist and Imago relationship expert Emily Harrington-Cheney to unpack the real roots of relationship conflict and how couples can resolve them—without yelling, avoidance, or shutting down. The conversation dives deep into hidden childhood wounds, the art of intentional conversation, and actionable Imago techniques that foster true connection. Listeners receive candid guidance on navigating relationships with compassion, self-awareness, and conscious communication.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Beneath Communication: The Hidden Trauma in Relationships

• [00:00-02:27] Both host and guest challenge the common idea that communication alone is the main issue—wounds and unresolved childhood traumas underlie most conflicts.
  • Quote: "You find someone, you get married, you build a life, but both of you are carrying wounds and no one taught you what to do with them." – Host, Matt King [00:29]
• Wounds often manifest as self-worth issues, self-doubt, and discomfort with uncertainty.

2. Moving from Unconscious to Conscious Partnership

• [02:31-04:09] Most couples operate in “unconscious partnership,” cycling between romantic phases and power struggles.
  • Quote: "The conflict comes in when our partners stop feeling like a lover and start feeling like family." – Emily [00:36, 13:15]
• The goal: shift toward conscious partnership, which involves curiosity about both your own and your partner’s emotional landscape.

3. Imago Dialogue: Intentional Communication Structure

• [04:24-06:36] Introduction to Imago’s “intentional dialogue”—a structured, step-by-step way of communicating to bypass blame, defensiveness, and misunderstanding.
  • Mirroring: One person speaks, the other repeats back (“mirrors”) what’s heard to ensure understanding.
  • Validation & Empathy: After mirroring, the receiver validates the sender’s feelings and offers empathy.
  • Quote: "The main part of it is mirroring... Because if you didn’t really hear me, you wouldn’t be able to mirror back what I’m saying to you." – Emily [04:24]
• [06:36-08:05] Practical example: making a “communication appointment” even for small issues; approaching the conversation only when regulated and ready.

4. Regulating Emotions & Preventing Attack

• [08:05-09:55] Practical guidance on self-regulation before engaging in dialogue—wait to speak until you’re centered to avoid blame and criticism.
• As the receiver, one must “put it in the parking lot” and refrain from justification or defense until it’s their turn to speak.

5. The Power of Intentionality, Safety, and Mirroring with Kids

• [11:31-14:42] Creating a safe, intentional environment is crucial—not just for romantic partnerships, but families.
• [14:42-16:56] Mirroring works with children too; modeling these behaviors rather than just instructing them is key.
  • Memorable Moment: Emily shares a story of her son, upset and dysregulated, calming down as she simply mirrored his feelings.

6. The Roots of Imago: Personal Journey & Application

• [18:46-21:27] Emily’s introduction to Imago came early in her therapy career; the model resonated due to its experiential nature.
  • Notable Quote: "It embodies what Imago is. We're mirroring all the time… Like, it's an emotional experience to go through the training." – Emily [19:30]

7. Resistance & Difficulties in Practice

• [21:27-22:53] Mirroring and direct dialogue often feel awkward, forced, or resisting—especially for disconnected couples.
• [22:57-23:16] Phones and devices as “relationship exits”—ways we flee intimacy and intentional connection.

8. Outsourcing Validation & The Relational Paradigm

• [25:07-29:49] Modern couples frequently seek validation from friends (via texts, photos, venting), rather than inside the relationship.
  • Quote: "You have to be able to step into your partner's world, which is a really hard thing to do because it feels kind of threatening if you're not used to it." – Emily [27:11]
• In Imago, the “problem” and solution live in the relational space, not just inside individuals.

9. Weaponizing Communication Tools

• [30:18-31:24] Sometimes people weaponize empathy/mirroring tools; Emphasizes intentionality and aiming for win-win, not win-lose dynamics.

10. The Ongoing Nature of Growth and Healing

• [34:25-36:13] Relationship work and growth is perpetual; there’s no finishing point.
  • Quote: "If we stopped having conflict, then we wouldn't be growing." – Emily [34:41]

11. Unpacking the “Box”: Patterns & Repressed Messages

• [36:13-38:44] Each person has “boxes” of repressed feelings/traits, shaped by family rules and expectations.
  • Quote: "You admire them so much. And then once you switch over into the power struggle, those things that looked so great start to ping on these rules that we have." – Emily [37:40]

12. Breaking Generational Patterns with Self-Awareness

• [43:47-44:32] Self-reflection and becoming intentional are key for not passing down unhelpful emotional patterns to children.

13. Therapy as a Tool—not a Cure-All

• [45:22-53:45] Therapy can be used productively or as a crutch—true impact comes from active engagement and carrying learning into daily life.
  • Quote: "The best therapists are doing a lot of their own work… But we're all just human beings." – Emily [46:09]

14. Trauma—Understanding “Big T” and “Little t”

• [50:39-52:25] Shift from focusing only on “big T trauma” to recognizing the impact of small, repeated wounds and disconnects.

15. Getting Started with Imago—Concrete Steps

• [55:41-58:16] Recommendations:
  • Read Getting the Love You Want by Harville Hendrix and Helen LaKelly Hunt
  • Join Imago workshops or see a trained Imago therapist
  • Start by mirroring daily, even in neutral interactions, to build comfort
  • Quote: “Just practice.” – Emily [59:11]

16. Practice, Practice, Practice—Mirroring as a Language

• [58:29-61:17] Mirroring, like any new language, takes repetition—try with strangers (e.g., TSA agents) to build the muscle.
  • Quote: "Mirroring is no different than Spanish. It's just a language." – Emily [60:51]

17. Imago Is a Team Sport

• [61:18-61:43] "Imago is a team sport. You're on the same team, helping each other... build understanding and create what we want to have in the space between." – Emily [61:18]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Hidden childhood trauma's impact [00:00–02:27]
• Unconscious vs. conscious relationship [02:31–04:09]
• Imago intentional dialogue explained [04:24–06:36]
• Creating safe, intentional conversations [06:36–09:55]
• Mirroring with children—real-life example [14:42–16:56]
• Emily’s Imago journey and application [18:46–21:27]
• Weaponizing empathy & keeping score [30:18–31:50]
• Growth is perpetual—never stops [34:25–36:13]
• Carrying & breaking family patterns [43:47–44:32]
• Therapy’s limits & significance [45:22–50:10]
• Types of trauma & their impact [50:39–52:25]
• First steps for couples: Imago resources [55:41–58:16]
• Mirroring as everyday practice [58:29–61:17]
• Imago as a team sport [61:18–61:43]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The conflict comes in when our partners stop feeling like a lover and start feeling like family."
  — Emily [00:36, 13:15]

• "Conflict is growth trying to happen."
  — Emily [33:44]

• "Intentionality. When we do the couples workshops, like I probably say the word intentional or intentionality like 700 times... Without intention, you're both on autopilot."
  — Emily [11:48]

• "Imago is a team sport. You're on the same team."
  — Emily [61:18]

• "Mirroring is no different than Spanish. It's just a language."
  — Emily [60:51]

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Resources Mentioned

• Getting the Love You Want by Harville Hendrix & Helen LaKelly Hunt ([55:53])
• Imago Therapy (therapy, workshops, books) ([55:53])
• Emily’s practice: seenandheardpsychotherapy.com ([61:57])

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Relationship conflict is inevitable and rooted in deeper patterns—addressing it with intentionality and structure creates healing, not just solutions.
• Mirroring, validation, and empathy aren’t just techniques—they’re foundations for safe partnership and growth.
• Practicing these skills in all relationships, not just romantic, builds fluency and comfort.
• True progress requires consistent action and willingness to be uncomfortable for the sake of connection.

"Just practice. You just have to make the effort." – Emily [61:10]

Transcript

[A]

You think it's just communication, timing, personality. But what if the real reason your relationship keeps breaking is the trauma that no one's talking about?

[B]

Huge issues of self worth, you know, are they worth listening to? You know, so much self doubt, you know, I don't trust myself to make a good decision. I don't trust myself. What I feel I want is what I really want and what I should have and what I deserve to have in terms of the life they've built or the relationship that they're in, the way that they're treated by other people.

[A]

So you find someone, you get married, you build a life, but both of you are carrying wounds and no one taught you what to do with them.

[B]

The conflict comes in when our partners stop feeling like a lover and start feeling like family.

[A]

But this isn't a dead end. This is where the real work begins.

[B]

You're always going to turn back over and find a new thing to butt heads about. But that's not a problem if you know that conflict is growth trying to happen.

[A]

This is Emily Harrington Chaney. What patterns do you see? Traumas do you see that people carry through their lifetime of like, looking back going, wow, they weren't listened to as a child.

[B]

Oh my gosh, so many, I mean, huge issues of self worth, you know, are they worth listening to? You know, so much self doubt, you know, I don't trust myself to make a good decision. I don't trust myself that what I, what I feel I want is what I really want and what I should have and what I deserve to have in terms of the life they've built or the relationship that they're in, the way that they're treated by other people and just so much uncertainty and discomfort with uncertainty. Because if you're told what to do all the time, right. That eliminates a lot of uncertainty, which makes us feel calm. But it also, once you get out in the real world and there are a million choices laid out in front of you, I mean, it just feels like so overwhelming.

[A]

And then that lack of ability to choose, let's call it, as I hear you saying, then translates to the relationship, right? So you go through your life, you get married, and now you have two human beings who are both struggling with self worth, struggling with, let's say, self doubt. How do they navigate that uncertainty and recognize what they truly want and need from the relationship that they're in?

[B]

Well, poorly most of the time. Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think a lot of it is consciousness. So, you know, in the kind of therapy I do with, with couples, with relationships, it is about moving from an unconscious partnership to a conscious partnership. Unconscious partnership is either the romantic love phase that we're in where everything is rose colored glasses, everything is beautiful, you only see the good side of your partner and everything just feels right, or you have the power struggle where you're still unconscious but everything just looks worse. That shine fades away from the beginning parts of the relationship and you start thinking, well, maybe I made a mistake, or this person isn't right for me, or maybe I don't know them as well as I thought I did, or they've changed. But you have to get from that place of unconsciousness to a place of more conscious partnership where you are more aware of your own internal landscape. All of the factors from your childhood and earlier in your life that have that you're bringing into the relationship and keep getting played out unconsciously. And also start being curious and being more aware of what's going on with that same stuff with your partner so that you can take them less personally and you can have more compassion for the person that they are, rather than just getting a story in your head about what they're doing or what they're saying or who they are and interacting with that story rather than interacting with the actual human being in front of you.

[A]

So you, you talk about interacting with this story, right? The story of the human?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How do you do that? Do you empathize with them and how they were raised? Do you ask questions? Do you create, like, what does those conversations look like to actually empathize with your partner?

[B]

Yeah. So in Imago, what we do, we have what's called the intentional dialogue. And it's a really highly structured way of communicating, which feels really, really awkward when you first start doing it. Right. Just like riding a bike. You have no idea what you're doing, Everything feels weird, you're gonna fall over. But the more you practice it, the more you see that it eliminates a lot of the bad conversational habits that we fall into. It doesn't allow for a lot of that defensiveness to come up. That gets couples. And the main part of it is mirroring. So one person talks at a time rather than it being this kind of serial monologue where I'm talking and then you're talking, I'm talking, you're talking. I would be talking to you and you'd be mirroring back what you heard so that we're not getting into miscommunications. We're staying on one topic and I have a chance to clarify and add things to what I want to say. Because I'm also hearing it back, and I'm getting a sense that you're really hearing me. Because if you didn't really hear me, you wouldn't be able to mirror back what I'm saying to you. And then once I've said everything that I need to say, coming from a place of understanding of myself. Right. We're talking. It's not a bunch of just blame.

[A]

Not going to ask.

[B]

I'm not going to ask you to mirror back, like a whole bunch of complaints. But saying, this is the story I'm telling myself. These are the feelings that come up. Here's how I react when I feel that way. This is what it brings up from my childhood, making all of those connections. And then once I get through that, then you have an opportunity to validate me. Right. What makes sense about what you're saying to me, knowing you as I do, is and to offer some empathy. Imagine when I do this, you feel angry, you feel alone, you feel frustrated. Is that how you're feeling? And so you have an. I have an opportunity to say what I need to say and be heard. You have an opportunity to hold me in my story. And. And then we switch roles. And then I offer to you the same gift that you just offered to me.

[A]

The structured part of the conversation you said feels awkward at first.

[B]

It does.

[A]

Can you give me an example of what that structured conversation actually looks like?

[B]

Yeah. So the first thing you do is you make an appointment, which is, off the bat, really awkward, especially if you've been with your partner for any number of years to make an appointment.

[A]

Put it on the calendar.

[B]

Yeah. Or even right now, you know, so, you know, hey, I'd like to talk to you about the, you know, leaving clothes on the bedroom floor. Is now a good time? If it's a good time, we sit down and we have the conversation. If it's not a good time, then you let me know when so that I trust that we are actually going to have this conversation.

[A]

Yeah. Circle back.

[B]

Yes, exactly. So after supper or, you know, you know, this weekend or whatever. And then the structure is what we talked about. Right? So I say what I need to say. You're mirroring back as we go. You're checking in to make sure you're getting it. You're showing curiosity. Is there more? Is there more? You summarize what I said so that you're kind of pulling it all together. You validate, you empathize, we switch, and there you go, so if we use.

[A]

That example of leaving clothes on the bedroom floor, my guess is, you know, you schedule the appointment with me, for instance, like, hey, can we have this conversation? How do you avoid the attack through the conversation? Because without practice, without structure, without framework, I would imagine the initial conversations are, you're throwing the clothes on the floor, you lazy piece of junk. The hamper is right there. What is wrong with you? Right. And so it's all, me, me, me, me, me.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So how do we balance that attack versus actually how we feel?

[B]

Yeah. Well, I think the first thing is to not ask for the conversation until you are regulated enough to have it without attacking. You're going to try really, really hard as the sender to be responsible with your send. No blame, no shame, no criticism. You just speak. So I noticed I had a reaction when I saw your clothes on the bedroom floor. The story I tell myself when I see that is that you don't respect our space and you don't care about how I feel when I walk into the room. When I tell myself that story, I feel really angry and. And I feel alone. And what this reminds me of from my childhood is I grew up in a really messy house, and nobody really seemed to care about what was in there. And I often felt like I was alone in just a really messy space. And it was really hard for me. And as we're going, you're mirroring back, and so you're trying the best you can to just speak from your own experience. Just let them know, this is my side of things. This is how I see it. This is why it affects me. This is what it brings up for me. It is not easy.

[A]

I was gonna say, cause me as the receiver I was thinking through, how would I mirror this conversation? The first thing that went to my mind was justification. I threw the clothes on the floor because the kids were going nuts and I didn't want the macaroni to boil over on the oven, and I was gonna come back and fix it later. And that's me defending my position. So then, as the receiver of that message, how do you coach people to stay present with the discussion, present with the conversations, empathize with the sender, as you referred to it, and not justify the action.

[B]

Absolutely. So we coach the receiver. All you have to do is mirror. Literally, the only thing you have to do right now is mirror back what you're hearing. You don't have to agree, you don't have to like it. Right? You are going to have a reaction to it. And that's okay. What I need you to do is I need you to put it in the parking lot for right now. Not because it's not important, not because it's not valid. It's just not your turn. Right. You will get your turn afterwards. And when we switch, that's when you have the opportunity. Okay, so my experience of the socks on the floor. Right. Or the clothes on the floor is that, you know, I was in the middle of this. You know, it makes sense that you would be upset, but, you know, you just go through your side of it. And there's so much value in slowing the conversation down by doing the one way send and doing the mirroring that the conversation itself can be regulating. Not all the time. Right. You're going to have reactions, especially we've got a range of frustrations. There are frustrations that are a one on the scale, and there are frustrations that are relationship ending like a 10 on the scale. And depending where you are on that spectrum, you're going to have a different reaction and a different level of feelings coming up when you're hearing what your partner has to say. But it takes practice. Just like anything. It's like you are training your nervous system. This is a safe person. They are not your enemy. You need to share your feelings. You need to share your openness, your vulnerability with them so that you get the same back.

[A]

And what I hear you saying is not only is that a safe person you're communicating with, but it's very important to create a safe environment, meaning booking that appointment so that you're walking into the space rather than in the midst of the chaos trying to hash out a dispute in that moment.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. It's all about intentionality. When we do the couples workshops, like I probably say the word intentional or intentionality like 700 times, I'm like, you're gonna hear this word a lot. Because without intention, like, you're just, you're both on autopilot. And so making the appointment introduces that intentionality. I want to have this conversation with you, but I respect you enough that I want to ask you, is now a good time? And if it's not, then we'll find a different time so that I know that you are ready, willing, able, and present with me so that we can do this together. And we're agreeing to do it in the dialogue format because that's what keeps us safe.

[A]

So would you say most couples are walking through their life and their relationship unintentional?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then that is what leads to the conflict, confrontation, and ultimately divorce. Hopefully it doesn't get there, but yeah, it's interesting.

[B]

So, I mean, what causes the conflict is the way that relationships work, which is we are at least, you know, in the Imago framework. We are unconsciously drawn to partners who represent both the positive and negative traits of our. The important people and caregivers in our lives. Growing up for the purpose of basically completing our childhood. Right. Healing those wounds, you know, coming back into wholeness and feeling fully alive. Right. That's the ultimate goal. But of course, those environments weren't always ideal. You know, we always experience our parents and our families in both positive and negative ways. And so the conflict comes in when our partners stop feeling like a lover and start feeling like family. And then those same templates and those same dynamics that were present for us growing up start creeping in. And we naturally use the same defenses that we use growing up to protect ourselves and those adaptive strategies to. To try to keep us safe in the present tense, even though our partner isn't our family. Right. We're projecting those things onto them and seeing things in them in a way that is. That's skewed. You know, it's not necessarily what. What's really going on or what's really there. So that's where the conflict comes from. But if you don't deal with the conflict with intentionality, that's where you start diverging, and you're getting off and getting disconnected, which feels terrible. Of course.

[A]

Yeah. But so conflict is naturally gonna arise in relationship. I mean, it's it. Even in your relationship. Right. You guys are both deep in the work. You're doing the work. Conflict is gonna arise. Yes, but you guys have made a commitment to each other that in this house, we will approach conflict intentionally.

[B]

Correct? Absolutely.

[A]

How do you then parlay that to your children?

[B]

Oh, that's really good. I have dialogued with my kiddos. So when Steve and I got first got into Imago, we were like this amazing. This is awesome. We're gonna use it with the kids we try to use it with. And they sniffed that out a mile away. They were like, don't use that on me. I don't want that. We are not mirroring. We're not doing it. But there are times when it has been really, really valuable. There was one time, I remember, where my son was really upset. He was just beside himself, and he was so angry. And I thought, I'm going to try it. And all I did was just mirror what he said, and I thought he's gonna sniff this out. Like, he's gonna be. This is gonna make him even angrier, you know, but he just. I'm like, this is what I'm hearing. Am I getting you? Is there any more? What else is there? And he just kept telling me. He just kept telling me, and he got calmer and calmer and calmer, and I was like, oh, my God. Like, this actually. This actually works. Which I knew it did. I'd seen it work before, but to have it work with a kiddo who was just like, absolutely, totally dysregulated was pretty amazing. And we've used it recently, too. You know, kids are teenagers now, and so, you know, there are a lot of big feelings. You know, there's a lot of the natural differentiation individuating, you know, moving along, separating from the family unit. And so there's a little more conflict than we've had in the past. And, you know, we've used it successfully there and actually got a thank you from my daughter saying thank you for approaching it in this way, because it actually felt really calm. It felt really safe. It didn't feel like anybody was trying to attack anybody. So I think using it with your kids is the most important thing, honestly.

[A]

Have you seen your kids use it with their peers?

[B]

I haven't seen it. That's an interesting question. But I would imagine, especially my daughter, she tends to be kind of like, in the friend group, like the group therapist. And so I imagine that she's bringing some of that energy, maybe not exactly the skills, I imagine, because she's seen it, she's bringing some of that energy into her peer group. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's just. It's fascinating because I was reading some studies recently that talked a lot about how our kids do what they see, not what they're told. And so, like, if you said, hey, you need to mirror. Hey, you need to mirror. Hey, you need to mirror, they're like, yeah, okay, Mom. Like, I have a mirror. Shut up.

[B]

I got this. Right.

[A]

But if. If they witness it, if they witness the communication between you and your significant other as mirroring, if they witness you mirroring them just through osmosis, I would imagine that they're mirroring in situations that they're in often.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think with my kids, so we didn't. We started with Imago in 2019. So that was six years ago. So they were already, you know, like, you know, around 10, you know, maybe 8 and 10 when we started it. Excuse me. But my mentor Michelle, she and her husband Started their imago journey years and years ago when their son was small. And so they did. He, from a very young age, was exposed to imago and mirroring and all of this stuff. And I have seen him use it, and I've heard him say, why don't other people do this? You know? And he's. You know, she's told stories about him mirroring his friends and things like that. So I imagine that if my kiddos had been exposed to it more when they were in an earlier developmental stage, we probably see it more in them today.

[A]

What will be really interesting as they continue to grow up and maybe someday have families of their own, you as grandma or grandpa, kind of sitting on the sidelines going like, that's mirroring. That's mirroring. That's mirroring. They just booked an appointment, like, here we go. This is awesome.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Watching how they develop with that skill, because it's ingrained in them now at this point, whether they use it or not yet.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You have to imagine they will at some point.

[B]

It's in there somewhere. Yeah.

[A]

What got you all started down this journey in 2019?

[B]

Well, our mentor, Michelle, who was my husband's group therapist at the time, she started doing trainings in Austin, and she very convincingly persuaded us, like, this is what you want. If you want to work with couples. This is amazing. She is a very, very powerful persuader. And, you know, we. We got into the training, and it was amazing. I mean, there are a lot of. As a therapist, man, you could go to a training every day of the year, and there's a lot out there. Most of them just kind of feel like school. You know, they're transmitting information. You might be practicing a little bit, but the imago training is like, it embodies what imago is. We're mirroring all the time. It is totally experiential. Like, it's an emotional experience to go through the training, training itself. And that was really powerful to me, to be able to feel it even in a training environment and feel the shift and the growth happening. Even though I'm not sitting in therapy, I'm not even talking to my partner. I'm talking to some random therapist I've never met before who's in this training, and we're feeling this emotional connection, and we're going to this depth that I could never have imagined would be possible in a training. And so I was really sold just because of the experiential elements of it.

[A]

So were you in the therapy space prior to Imago?

[B]

Yes, Well, I graduated with my master's degree in 2019. And so I had just graduated and just had been seeing clients during my grad school experience. And so I was just a brand new therapist when I first got introduced to Imago, which I'm grateful for, honestly, because it means that I didn't have years and years of doing whatever kind of couples therapy or probably avoiding doing couples therapy because it would be really scary and difficult before I learned that. So I feel like I got off, like I got on the ground floor and been able to learn and practice and hone those skills ever since.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I was really curious about is like, what habits or patterns did you have to break in this new way of therapy, this new way of leading conversation? And I'm sure you still had to break some, right? Because you graduate in 2019, you have all the stories, all the programming that's been given to your entire life, and now this is a whole new sort of language. It's a different way to communicate completely. And so do you ever find yourself still slipping or sliding back into the old ways?

[B]

Oh, absolutely, yes, 100%. I mean, it's a hard thing to keep couples in dialogue because there is, you know, there's always resistance to it. And I felt it too. When we first started doing the training and we were just mirroring each other, like, endlessly, it felt like I was like, what are we doing? This is a waste of my time. We're saying everything twice. This doesn't make any sense to me. Like, what are we doing? And I was irritated by it. So I had my own personal resistance to it. And then over time, as I started to know what it felt like to be mirrored, I was like, okay, now I get it. And the skill, the practicing, the skill made it easier. So it wasn't as tends to remember it. So I totally get couples having a resistance to it because it does require some intimacy. You know, you're facing one another, you're close together, you're eye to eye, heart to heart, knee to knee. You know, a lot of couples who are disconnected or are in conflict, like, they don't. They don't sit down with one another and make eye contact.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that itself, just by itself, can be daunting. And so asking them to maintain, you know, regulate their emotions, listen to one another, repeat back what their partner is saying, it is. It's a stretch for a lot of couples. And it can be hard to keep them in, in that dialogue format.

[A]

Would you say, though, just communication in general is a stretch for most couples.

[B]

Yeah, well, good communication.

[A]

Good communication, yeah. There's toxic. People are really good at that.

[B]

They're really good at that.

[A]

Throwing the daggers. From your perspective, how much do phones and other medias play into a couple's inability to connect intentionally, as you said?

[B]

I think it depends on how they're used. One of the ideas in Imago is that we all have relationship exits. Not literal exits like leaving the relationship, but things that we do consciously or semi unconsciously that take us away from our partner. That like, kind of avoid. Like, oh, I don't want to. Like, I don't want to go and sit on the couch with them because we're not going to be able to agree on what to watch. And so I'm going to go in my office and play on my computer instead. And so these little mini exits happen all the time and you have to be really careful because they, they drain away energy from the space between us in our relationship. And our phones and our devices are like, I mean, almost irresistible in terms of pulling us away from the present moment. There's always something that you can be looking at, engaging with, playing on a phone or device. And the world is always calling you. You get texts, you're getting emails, work is there the. You get a notification from xyz. I mean, so easy to be pulled away. And it seems like rational, like, oh, well, it's just one minute, you know, my, you know, my sister's texting. But, you know, it was never, I mean, if you think even 20 years ago, it wasn't that way. Like you, we were here together with one another and sister would have to call on the phone in order to get ahold of you.

[A]

So do you think phones have created more conflict in relationship?

[B]

I doubt they've created more. I think it's just a different way to have conflict. They've just given us more creative and variety in ways to. Ways to avoid connecting and being intimate with one another.

[A]

And then how many times do you see people try to solve the conflict through the phone in other ways? Like, I'm carrying this frustration I had from yesterday, clothes on the floor, back to your earlier example, but I didn't have the courage or the confidence or the desire to confront you in the moment. And so I'm gonna wait till I go to work tomorrow and then I'm gonna be a little keyboard gangster and I'm gonna bang away on my phone and say, like, why did you leave your clothes on the damn floor?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Do you See that happening?

[B]

I mean. I mean, absolutely, I see it happening for sure. I mean, I think that happens. And I think also since we have other people at our disposal so quickly, there are other. Like, rather than bringing it to our partner directly, you know, you're texting your best friend and being like, oh, my God, I cannot believe. You know, like, look at this. You know, you're snapping a picture and, like, sending it off, like, and you're taking it out of the relationship to get the validation, rather than saying, hey, this is important to me. I'd like to talk about it, you know, because there's a lot more risk involved. I mean, I get it. You know, there's a risk of conflict here. If it's not going to be resolved, it might make it worse. There's a lot of reasons not to engage with your partner about things that you're frustrated about, but there's also a lot of reasons to actually get in there and do the work.

[A]

So you take it out of a safe space, right? You send that screenshot or that text message to your friend saying, look at this jerk. He left his dirty clothes here, right? So you've now taken your safe space and taken it outside or externally seeking validation. But one of the things that I've read about Imago is validating your partner is one of the most important pieces.

[B]

It is.

[A]

And so how do you make sure you're validating your partner such that they don't have to go outside of the safe space to seek validation? Because what I heard you saying there was. I'm not getting the validation from the conversation. So I'm gonna go get validation from my sister or my brother or my friend.

[B]

Absolutely. Well, I think that you have to be able to step into your partner's world, which is a really hard thing to do because it feels kind of threatening if you're not used to it. You know, like, it's one thing we want to do in Imago is move from what we call the individual paradigm to the relational paradigm. Individual paradigm is like, whatever problem is happening is, like, inside each person, and if you can just fix it in yourself, then, like, that's. Problems go away. But in Imago, we believe that everybody makes sense, and the problem and its solution is in the space between the two people that are part of whatever conflict it is, whether it's romantic, partners or otherwise. And so. Oh, my God, I lost my train of thought. What was your question?

[A]

Basically, how do you see that partners seek validation outside of the relationship rather than inside? Because one of the most important pieces of imago, at least from, you know, my studying is validating. Your partner is very important, empathizing and validating. And so when you gave that example of, hey, the clothes are on the floor, I'm gonna send a text to my friend, what I hear you saying is, I'm not gonna get validation from you, so I'm gonna go to Jimmy and get validation from Jimmy.

[B]

Right, Right. And so you have to be able to step over into your partner's world, and that can be really difficult. But it's so important because you have to be able to find what makes sense about your partner. We all want to be understood. We all want to know that someone gets it, even if they don't agree with it, that they get it. That, like, my partner gets that the clothes on the floor are frustrating to me. And they're frustrating to me not necessarily because he's a terrible person or I think he's done something horribly wrong, but because the way that I grew up makes it a tender spot for me. Right. And it causes a problem. And so, of course, there's such thing as, you know, looking out for validation, you know, like looking for things to validate in your partner. But whenever your partner brings you something, even if you feel the reactivity, even if you have a perfectly good reason why you did what you did, to stop, slow down and say, okay, what actually makes sense about this? And if it doesn't make sense, you don't have enough information, and you say, I'm having trouble understanding you, can you tell me more about why this is upsetting you and try to understand so that you can get to a place where you can validate something, anything about what they're saying.

[A]

One of the things that I've seen people do is as they gain these tools, whether it's imago or communications training or mirroring, whatever you want to look at, they gain these tools. They begin to weaponize them in a relationship. And so how do couples use this mirroring concept, use this validation concept, use this empathy concept, not as a weapon, but as a force for great. In that intentional conversation?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen the same thing. And I always find it really frustrating, and it makes me sad because I'm like, this is such a beautiful. This is such a beautiful tool for connection. And you're using it to hurt each other. And so, I don't know. I mean, you have to have. You just have to have the intentionality. You just have to make the decision to connect with your partner. And try to be kind and compassionate and caring rather than combative, rather than trying to win. When you're trying to win and you're trying to figure out who's right and who's wrong, you're in the individual paradigm. And you have to bring it on the relational side and be like, I make sense, you make sense. Let's figure out what makes sense here so that we can actually make change here so that, you know, this is a win win rather than a win lose. Because in a relationship, you know, if one person is winning, the other person is losing and everybody loses. When you're in a partnership and one person loses, you want it to be a win win of some sort. Of.

[A]

Yeah. I remember when I first got married, somebody asked me, like, what do you think the relationship from a give and take perspective needs to be? And of course, I was young and smartass. I'm like, 50, 50. And the guy looked at me, he's like, that's a recipe for divorce. Like, well, what do you mean? How is that a recipe for divorce? I get 50, she get like, that sounds pretty logical. He's like, the relationship must be a hundred zero at all times. Like, you are all in for your partner.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And their perspective, even if you don't agree with it at all times. And she is all in for you at all times. And that can be really hard to maintain.

[B]

Oh, incredibly difficult.

[A]

Because we have a tendency as humans to keep score.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Whether we want to admit it or not.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So as you watch couples go through this work, how often does the work lead to the transformation that they're seeking in the relationship? And how often does the work lead to the departure from the relationship? Because there's recognition of, like, this isn't a good match.

[B]

Well, it's hard for me to give you any sort of numbers on that, but I will say what I think it depends on most is, are you actually doing it? What I see a lot is I see couples that'll come in for couples work, but the only time they're using the dialogue is that 50 minutes when they come and see me. And, you know, I used to be a Spanish teacher. And if the only time you are speaking Spanish is when you are in Spanish class with me, you are not learning any Spanish. And so that's what I like in it, too. Nada ni una palavred. And so I think that if you are doing the work, you are going to see the results. Because this is designed to create safety. That safety allows for connection and Vulnerability. And that is what you need in order to be able to get from this power struggle to this mature, conscious connection that feels a lot like the romantic love phase. Right. Because you start feeling excited again, you start feeling in love again, and it's always going to turn back over. It's a spiral. You're always going to turn back over and find a new thing to butt heads about. But that's not a problem if you know that conflict is growth trying to happen.

[A]

Conflict is growth trying to happen.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So embrace the conflict intentionally.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. It's trying to teach you something. One partner's growth is the other partner's healing. Right. So when I'm growing, I'm stretching toward you. I'm moving outside my comfort zone. I'm doing something I wouldn't maybe normally do. I'm embracing a part of myself, stepping into a part of myself that I've put away. And that is growth for me. And that heals a part of you that needs it where no one stretched for you when you were growing up.

[A]

Wow. And then as I then stretch and return, you're healing at the same time.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly.

[A]

When does the work stop?

[B]

Oh, never. No. Sorry. I wish I could say it stops, but no, it doesn't stop.

[A]

Even as two experts both trained you and your husband in imago?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Practicing it constantly, Training on it constantly. You're still evolving and growing through it.

[B]

Absolutely. Oh, 100%. Because if you, if, because if we stopped having conflict, then we wouldn't be growing. You know, I mean, and not that I don't want growth for growth's sake. Right. I mean, like, you know, I get it that, like, there are times when you are, you're just settled. Right. And then there are times of growth, but there's still plenty to heal. There's still plenty of room for me to grow. You know, I, I, I still need to grow in sharing my feelings with him. Right. That is something that I put away when I was younger because I learned that it was not helpful for me growing up. Right. I got a lot of negative feedback when I expressed a negative emotion. And so I said, oh, that's not a valid strategy. That's not safe. That is not welcome. I'm not going to be accepted and loved if I do that. But for him, when I don't tell him how I'm feeling, it triggers a whole bunch of stuff from his childhood. And so my stretch is to share what I'm feeling, give him a window into my thought process, my anxiety, my fear, my Sadness, my hurt, my anger. And that heals the part of him that gets so anxious and upset when he knows something's wrong, but I'm not telling him.

[A]

So you basically took your desire or ability to share how you were feeling and put it in a box.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Put a bunch of locks on that box.

[B]

So many locks.

[A]

Refused to open it for a very long time, still sometimes refuse to open it. And he, too, has his things that he's put in a box and keep shut.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But through all the work you've done, can you identify any patterns of things that you can see most people or most couples have inside of the box that they're unwilling to touch and access?

[B]

You know, there's a lot of variety there because everybody's childhood was different. And, I mean, one of the things is that in Imago, we talk about these repressive messages that you get growing up, and they fall in five different categories. And these are all the functions of being a human being, Right. Thinking, feeling, acting, sensing, and just being. And we all get these messages. Some of them can be explicit, but most of them are just kind of like undercurrents. And we learn how to be in the world in a safe way and belong based on these messages. Right. So what to wear, what to say, how loud to be, what, you know, which parts of your body to move at what times, all of these different messages. And we tend to put certain ones away that either get punished or don't get praised. And we work on the ones that get us love and attention and don't get us punished. And our partners often have access to the parts that we don't have access to. And when we first meet them, we're like, oh, my gosh, this person is so amazing. You see all of the things that you want for yourself, but you don't have access to. And you're like, oh, it's so juicy. It's so delicious. Like, oh, my gosh, you admire them so much. And then once you switch over into the power struggle, those things that looked so great start to ping on these rules that we have. Like, this isn't allowed. You're not allowed to do that. That's dangerous. That's not cool. You're gonna get punished, you're gonna get in trouble, and they start pissing us off. And so we try to kind of impose our internal structure of rules on them and make them be. They make them be in compliance with our internal rules and back in the.

[A]

Opposite direction, rather than being willing to flex our internal rules.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And explore why do we even have those internal rules?

[B]

Yeah, because most people don't even know they have the internal rules. So that's part of the work in Imago, is to uncover what are these repressive messages that I got and what's the effect? Like what? How am I bringing this into the relationship now? And how can I. How can I recognize that and work on it?

[A]

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[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

And I was reflecting on that discussion in my own head because I remember my son crying over the weekend. He's four. And it was over something that I deemed stupid. Something that I deemed we don't cry over.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And yet there I was telling him, like, stop crying, stop crying, stop crying.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And. And I was talking to the team today. I was like, it's such an interesting thing to be aware of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is like, where did I get that story? Why am I choosing to still Carry that story and then even further. Who am I to give my child that story?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And so as you navigate this life, how do you make sure that those things you've put in the box or that were forced to be put in a box because of the stories and the imprints on you don't become inside of your children's box someday?

[B]

Yeah, well, you have to. You've got to cultivate self awareness. You have to be intentional. There's that word again about looking at yourself and reflecting on how was I raised and what do I want to carry forward from that and what do I want to leave behind? What needs to be left in the past? You know, do I want. Do I want my son to have the same feeling, belief, rule inside of him that I have inside of me? Is that something that I want to pass along? It's like. It's like DNA that you get to choose, but you only get to choose it if you are aware of it. If you're not aware, then all of this stuff rolls unconsciously. And that's true in your romantic relationship and it's true in your relationship with your kiddos.

[A]

How do you become aware of it? Because it sounds so great. It sounds so awesome. Okay. All I gotta do is be aware of it and then I don't have. But most of us aren't even aware that we're unaware of the things that we could be aware of.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So is that through self reflection? Is that through coaches? Is that through books? Is journaling like, where do you start?

[B]

All of the above. Anything that works for you works. I don't care what it looks like. You can go to therapy if you want to go. You can go to a retreat somewhere. You can read Eckhart Tolle. You can. I don't know, I mean, you can journal any. Literally anything. I do not care what you do, but start taking a look at yourself so that you are. So that you're aware of what you're bringing into the world and into your relationships. It cannot do anything but good.

[A]

While you're doing this work with Imago, I'm sure you're still looking at the parallels in other therapy practices or other therapy means.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

From your perspective, is therapy used as a band aid and not as a cure? Said differently, do people lean on therapy and do therapists lean on dependence rather than trying to empower so that you can then go create the change yourself?

[B]

Yes. Is the answer to your question like all of the above, therapy, just like any tool, can be used in any Number of ways it can be used in an emotionally honest way where you're really trying to learn more about yourself and bring more emotional authenticity, honesty and self understanding. Or it can be used to say, well, I'm going to therapy to make yourself look like you're a cool guy. I don't know. So, I mean, it's all about, it's. It is all about the energy that you are bringing to it. And of course there are. I mean, there are as many different kinds of therapists as there are therapists. We all are humans too. We all have our own baggage. We bring it in. I think that the best therapists are doing a lot of their own work. They're working earnestly on themselves to try to understand themselves better so they understand what they're bringing into the therapy room and trying to keep that as clean as possible. But we're all just human beings. And so some people might have an unconscious need to keep their clients dependent on them and sustain themselves in that way. And there are a hell of a lot of therapists who might know that about themselves and not engage in it actively. And there are some therapists who may not need that sort of gratification.

[A]

Right. Because there's an amount of significance that comes from being needed by the client. I would imagine. It's no different than, you know, working with a team. You become the bottleneck because you get significance from all the problems landing on your desk. And then you're miserable and have decision fatigue because all the problems land on your desk. And so as. As therapists are navigating this space, have you had to wrestle with that at all? Have you had to play with that concept of significance? And what is my role in this conversation?

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I mean, I think therapy is the weirdest job you can have. I really do. Like I say, still constantly am consulting with my mentors and supervisors, like, what are we actually doing here? Is it my job to help people? Is it my job to just hold space so people can help themselves? I don't want to give advice. I don't know what's going on. I don't know what's best for them. But at the same time, they see me as an authority. There's so many different. I mean, it's a weird job, Matt. It's a weird job.

[A]

Well, it kind of reminds me of a personal trainer. You know, when I go to the gym with the personal trainer, I'm all in. I'm working out hard, they're pushing me. Yeah, but the personal Trainer's not coming with me in the car to drive home where I may or may not stop for a P. Terry's cheeseburger, Right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But then, yet I come back to the gym bitter and angry, most likely at the trainer, because I'm not seeing the results. But in reality, if I look in the mirror, the reason the results aren't happening is because, as you said earlier, I'm not doing the work. I'm outside of the practice.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for sure. And it's. I mean, part of being a therapist is knowing the limitations of your influence. You know, you just, like this person is coming to see me for 50 minutes once a week, maybe once every two weeks. You know, if it's once a week, they have 6 days and 23 hours where they are living their life and I am not there influencing them. And, you know, like, I have to be. You have to be humble about what your contribution really is, you know, and not. Not take it too seriously. But also know that you really don't know what your influence is. So you have to be very careful. You have to be mindful of what you're bringing into the space, what you're saying to clients, because you never know what's going to land with them and how it's going to land and then.

[A]

How long they'll carry it.

[B]

And how long they'll carry it.

[A]

That's the dangerous part.

[B]

Yes. Or how they're interpreted, too. Right. You can say one thing and then have them hear something completely different. I mean, just like any relationship.

[A]

Yeah. Just. And just like any discussion. Right. There's. There's things that have been told to me, like, just very off the cuff that the people who told it to me have no idea what they said, no recollection of what they said. But I've carried it for three, four, five, seven 12 years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm still like, you remember what you said? Like, no, tell me what I said. I'm like, I'm good. I'm just going to leave you sit with it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

No, what did I say? Was it good? Was it bad?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But at the end of the day, it is then mine to choose how to apply my interpretation. And so I don't think it matters what they truly said. I think what matters is what they said, how it impacted me and how I use that to make choices moving forward.

[B]

Exactly. I totally agree. Yeah.

[A]

So trauma is a very commonly used word in today's day and age.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Yes. It's everywhere.

[A]

From your perspective. Is it misused? Overused or underused?

[B]

Oh, oh, man. Yes, again is my answer, which is probably totally unsatisfying. It can be misused. I mean, it depends on. Are you using it as an excuse? Are you using it to create a space where you are a victim and you don't have to do hard things? Then you're probably misusing it or overusing it. But I think also we don't recognize. I mean, everybody recognizes what they used to call big T trauma, you know, like, right, where you're, you know, you got in a terrible car accident or you were assaulted, or you were part of a natural disaster, you know, something terrible, acute that happened to you. I think that we're getting to a space more and more where we are recognizing the significance of little T trauma. And again, like, that's. Nobody uses those terms anymore, but the kind of chronic developmental trauma that people suffer through, and you can't see it in the way that you could see those other kinds of acute trauma.

[A]

They're like the little paper cuts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The little comments, the little moments of feeling.

[B]

Right. Yeah, right. The disconnections, the little wounds, the small injuries that happen consistently over time.

[A]

From your perspective, what is a lie that people believe about therapy that is actually keeping them stuck?

[B]

Wow, there's probably a lot. Let me think about that one for a second. A lie about therapy that keeps people stuck. Well, probably just that by, like, that therapy alone is going to do it. You know, I think that there are so many different paths to healing, and therapy is one of them. And of course, I think it's valuable because it's. It's my bread and butter. It's what I do. But what about your body, right? What about doing body work, getting massages, doing yoga? What about meditation and mindfulness? What about the basics of Maslow's hierarchy? Right. Getting enough sleep, getting enough water, enough food, enough exercise and movement and sunshine, like the basic human elements, you know, like, there's so many different things out there that. That can help people feel better, do better, move toward wholeness. And, you know, therapy is one path to that. It's not the only path to that.

[A]

It seems as though therapy is transitioning more and more to this medicinal space. And what I mean by medicinal is ketamine, psilocybin, mdma, whatever that modality is for you in your experience and from your perspective, are those medicines helpful or hurtful in the overall healing journey?

[B]

I think actually they can be really helpful. Again, it depends on the person and how they're using it. Right. If you're using it to bypass everything and just not feel anything and not process anything, it's only going to have a limiting efficacy. But I think there are a lot of people out there where it really helps deepen the work. It helps them get to a space that they've tried to get to in therapy but just haven't been able to get to. And so I'm all for innovation in that area. If it works for you, it works as long as you're being responsible about it. And if you're being honest about it, rather than just like, I'm going to use this as a way to get some psilocybin, it goes back to your.

[A]

Whole concept around intentionality, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, if you're intentional about using those things to unlock parts of you that you're unwilling to access consciously.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Then it's powerful.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But if you're unintentional or you're intentionally using it for recreational purposes, then it's probably going to be hurtful.

[B]

Yeah. Right. Or just not helpful.

[A]

Or just not.

[B]

Maybe it won't be hurtful, but maybe it's not going to. It's not going to be lasting or it's not going to get you the results that you were hoping for.

[A]

So. So let's say somebody listening to this conversation is feeling the same way I'm feeling right now, which is, oh, shit, I got a lot of work to do. Yeah, I probably should start to lean into this Imago thing. I've practiced the term called rasa a lot, which is receive, appreciate, summarize, and ask. Very similar to the mirroring, very similar to the validating.

[B]

I like it.

[A]

And I'm still an amateur, and I'm still a rookie, and I'm still a human with all my faults, all my flaws, and some little bit of good things. Where do I get started going down this Imago journey?

[B]

Oh, there's a lot of paths. I mean, the simplest thing to do, of course, would be to read Getting the Love youe Want. Right. That's the Imago Bible, as it were, written by Harvl Hendricks and his wife, Helen Le Kelly Hunt. And they actually have a lot of books out there. Getting the Love youe Want is the one that is specific for couples and romantic relationships. They also have Keeping the Love youe Find, which is more for people like just individuals. There is a parenting book. There's, you know, and there's books just about how to have conversations with people, with anybody, using the skills of Imago that they've you know, tried and tried and true over the years. There's imago therapy. Right? You can find a trained imago therapist and work with them and have them teach you the skills, mediate the discussion so that you know what you're doing and, you know, where do I go next? There are workshops. There's getting the love you want workshops, There are keeping the love you find work. There's parenting workshops so you can learn the skills in different contexts. I just did a keeping workshop with my mentor, Michelle Bowles, and man, I really love that one. Because you don't have to be in a relationship in order to get the benefits. Although anybody who's in a couple could get benefit from it too. But you're really digging in and doing some really deep work into those repressive messages. A lot of digging into childhood stuff, seeing what your patterns of reactivity are, saying goodbye to them, looking at old relationships and what those meant and what happened in them. Knowing and learning more about your patterns and how you want to move forward with whatever relationship you're in or whatever relationship you want to get into. And, you know, you could do a book group reading it with couples. I ran a book group with a bunch of couples who were friends, and they read it all together, and we all worked together on kind of getting through the material and understanding it. Or just start mirroring your partner. Right. It's just as simple as that. When they say something and you notice yourself getting a little frustrated, say, okay, so what I heard you say is. And just do it.

[A]

Yeah. One of the things when I was practicing that rasa technique, I found that in my relationship, it felt, like, clunky and awkward. And then my wife was like, how are you trying to manipulate me now? Like, where are you going with this?

[B]

Right.

[A]

So one of the things I travel a lot, One of the things I started to do was I started to mirror the TSA agents because I was like, this is the safest environment because I will probably never see this human again. And even if I do, they will never remember me. They see hundreds and thousands of faces every day.

[B]

Every day. Yeah.

[A]

And that really gave me the strength and the confidence to then take that back into my relationship where I wasn't trying to practice on her. My wife.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

I was bringing this tool, not perfectly refined, not perfectly polished, into the relationship because I had practiced it on all these random ass TSA people.

[B]

I love that. I think that's great. I think the more practice you can do, the better. And that's something when I took that keeping workshop that they encouraged us to do. Like, bring this dialogue into your life. Mirror the cashier at the store. Ask the person, if you go to the T mobile store and you're trying to get a new phone and they're trying to explain something to you, ask them to mirror you so that you know that they're understanding your problem. Just practice.

[A]

Just practice.

[B]

It gets so much easier. I never thought it would be easy, but I'll go into a space and I'll mirror people and they're like, wow, you're really good at that. And they think that they can't do it. I'm like, I. I couldn't do it either until I could, you know, just practice.

[A]

Well, it goes back to like your Spanish teaching. Exactly, right. Like, yes, I dropped out. Well, I got kicked out of Spanish in high school.

[B]

Oh, boy.

[A]

And so now here we are at the ranch and our ranch manager is a godsend. One of the best humans I've ever had the privilege of meeting and working with. And he doesn't speak a lick of English.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

And so here I am learning Spanish.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And when he first started, it was like, like really bad. And now it's just pretty bad because I'm practicing and I'm practicing and I'm practicing and I'm thinking about, okay, that means seed, that means grass, that means hay, that means front, that means back, up, down, left, right. And so I'm practicing it. And so mirroring, what I hear you saying is the exact same.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I actually did not, I did not make the full connection before that. I am once again in a position to be teaching some awkward communication skill. It's just a language. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Mirroring is no different than Spanish. It's just a language.

[B]

It's just a different way of communicating.

[A]

That if you haven't used it before is new to you.

[B]

It's gonna be new and it's gonna be awkward and you're not gonna get it right every time. And that's okay. That's part of the process. You mirror somebody and you say, am I getting you? And they're like, no, that is not what I said at all. I feel like, okay, tell me again and I'll try again. It doesn't have to be right the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect. You just have to make the effort.

[A]

It's okay to ask for a do over.

[B]

Oh, absolutely, Absolutely. Michelle always says imago is a team sport. It's a team sport. You're on the same team. You're helping each other. This is not. Just because we're sitting across from each other and talking eye to eye doesn't mean that we're opponents. We are actually working together to build understanding and create what we want to have in the space between.

[A]

So people listening again, like myself, are like, okay, great, I'll start with that book. I'll look into those workshops, I'll look into coaching. But I want to work with you. How do people find you? How do people reach out to you? And what is the best way to start the dialogue between you and them?

[B]

Yeah, the best way is to go to my website. It is seenandheardpsychotherapy.com there's an easy to fill out contact form on there. Just pop through, comes right to my email and I'll get in touch with you. You.

[A]

I've really enjoyed the conversation. I know relationship may not be my strongest suit yet, but it's something that's important to me. It's something that I'm not willing to sacrifice. And so not only was this conversation fun for me to have, it was very insightful for me to take these tools back to my wife and my children and the people I love.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And start practicing and using these things in my common language.

[B]

I'm so glad to hear it. I would love. I love the idea of you taking this home and using it as much as possible.

[A]

I appreciate you.

[B]

It's a great, great thing. Thank you for inviting me.

[A]

Yeah, thank you.