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The Matt King Show
038: Mollie Eastman | How To Fix Your Sleep Without Sleeping Pills | The Matt King Show
00:59:13
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- [00:00]
A
If sleep is working, if our lives are working, if sleep being often a barometer of the workability of our lives, it's such a beautiful indicator that something's not working in your life.
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B
And by that standard, most people are failing. We're living in a world designed to break your sleep. There are screens in your face, phones by your pillow, light at midnight. And the worst part, we all call it normal.
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A
When I went through my whole period of insomnia, each time was left with sleeping pills. And it was one of these things of, is this really how we're treating these problems right now? And very concerning and scary because many of these hardcore medications, medications are ones that are not approved for long term use. And when people start taking them for long term, all kinds of messy stuff happens.
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B
If sleep reflects your life, maybe fixing your sleep means finally fixing you.
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A
My mission is to really be able to get out this information, to know that there's an alternative path that doesn't just have to look like okay, pills or bust.
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B
This is Molly Eastman.
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One of the biggest tweaks, or the smallest tweaks at the same time is sleeping with your phone outside of the bedroom.
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A
Yes, exactly.
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B
I mean, when I was in high school, I used to think it was a good idea to sleep with my phone charging underneath the pillow because God forbid I missed something, right?
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A
Oh, totally. Yeah.
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B
In high school, like, what's gonna happen? Right. But I. I saw so many people that I knew start to get brain cancer who spent on a ton of time on the phone.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And so I was like, well, if we're gonna spend that many years of our life. 26, I think you said. On average.
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A
On average, yeah.
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B
Asleep.
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A
Asleep.
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B
That means I'm gonna spend 26 hours. Years.
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A
Yes.
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B
Of my life with my phone underneath my head. That cannot be a good idea.
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A
That cannot be a good idea.
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B
So you just take your phone out of the bedroom?
- [01:41]
A
Yes.
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B
It's not a big deal.
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A
Exactly. And so one of the building biologists from the test, my home company, what they spoke to was creating the suggestion of around an eight foot bubble around your space so that you're not having all kinds of electronics in the space and what have you. And they get super creative and interesting. And if they're dealing with certain spaces, I mean, you can literally have like EMF tents. You can have all kinds of things to help support that. It's really all this fanciness to try to mimic what happens in nature, like when you just are outside pretty much camping on the ground. And how can we have More of that really indoors is essentially our goal.
- [02:22]
B
Well, one of the things is blue light, right. How many people look at their phone or look at the TV before they go to bed? You can just buy glasses or eliminate those things. But for some people, they have to fall asleep with the tv, right?
- [02:33]
A
Yes.
- [02:34]
B
You can just do do simple measures like that. So for you and your house or you and Blake.
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A
Yeah.
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B
How do you guys wind down for the day? What does that look like?
- [02:41]
A
Oh, yeah. So one, I'm so glad you mentioned the light because that's such a good component to help tell us what time it is, what to be doing when. So how can we mimic what's going on outside inside as much as possible? So once the sun is set, can we have it that it's largely getting darker indoors to the same degree for the most part. So I do have a lot of people test this too with. You can get this app called my Circadian app. You can also get a bunch of apps, but this one happens to have a few things where it will tell you what time sunrise, UVA rise, UVB rise and sunset is in your space and in your wherever you're living. And then you can measure the lux in your environment so you can walk outside. See, can you play a game of getting maximum lux by day and then markedly like next to nothing in the lux output of the lux is like this output of light, the amount of light that you're getting exposed to. So can you play a game to get it in around double digits and then even single digits as we get closer to bedtime? So for instance, a candle usually has around 7 lux or so. So can you get it to start to titrate down into the evening? And most people maybe aren't doing candles. So can you just have like a really dim light bulb option Now? I used to have Brothel Red everywhere in our old space. Came to more of a compromise in this new space. Seems a little more civilized because it, Blake was like no more friendly, no more Darth Vader. So, so now we have incandescent light. So Edison invented the incandescent light bulb around 145 years ago or so. And the outsource or the output of that sort of light is really interesting. It's more akin to what type of light spectrum you would see from sunrise and sunset. So it's very rainbow like, but rich in sort of that reddish piece of thing. So it's much more kind of romantic and comfy. And so then if you get that on a really low setting Then that's really just a nice sort of candle esque thing going on. We also have little Himalayan salt lamp night lights all over the place that kind of act as like little, you know, sconces or something. So that's made it much more, very low light. You can still go around and the lux output is very, very low, but less, you know, what is going on in this house. Step energy.
- [05:08]
B
What color is the refrigerator light? Cause that was a big thing.
- [05:11]
A
Still red. Yes. I do need to do updated videos on that one. Exactly. And that one's too. It's like can you go throughout your space and then just have really an absence of just non native intense lighting that you wouldn't be exposed to in nature. Just one for like kind of nervous system, just the experience of your place. But two for a measurable impact in melatonin. Now I will say there is lots of variance in how much your melatonin is impacted based on what type of light you're exposed to. So certainly, okay, if we were under these type of light late at night, then this would impact our melatonin production measurably. Whereas like little light sources might be a little bit less of a concern. Is also proximity. Are you staring right into that sort of light source? So there's a lot of kind of the physics of light. But I'll say in most of our refrigerators, you open them, it's. It's kind of feels like this sort of light. So to have that covered and it takes like two seconds. And it's a film from Amazon on, you know, under 10 bucks. So for the average person it can be just an easy little shift that. So you're really trying to audit your space and see are there any other places that I might be exposed to that I just don't have to deal with? And I can take the two seconds to do that. So to, you know what you're to your point around, like what do these evenings look like for us? Definitely the light is a big piece of it. Then the temperature in the space too. So starting to have that cool. Cause what happens, this is almost like an experiential thing when you think of times when you're out on the beach and it's so hot throughout the day, like you run across the sand and your feet are like burning. It's oh my God. But then when the sun sets, what in the world. And suddenly it's like, oh, I need a sweater now. This, the sand is cold. Like what is happening? And it's all the difference Just in the absence of that sun light source and that unequivocal telling of the body. And these trillions of clocks are in virtually every cell and organ in our body that are desperately trying to stay on time. Otherwise we're left with circadian chaos and sort of dysregulated clocks. So the more we can tell it what time it is and what to be doing when. So light is the biggest zeitgeber time giver, but the one of the next ones is temperature. And so temperature can also tell you what time and what to be doing when. So if you start lowering that light and you lower the temperature, then that can help support a surge in melatonin production. The other thing that really helps is the absence of turning on your pancreas, essentially. And how do you turn on your pancreas just by eating? Even if it's healthy stuff? Not healthy stuff, doesn't matter. So if you're eating post sunset, then it can be at odds with our ability to create sufficient melatonin. So one of our second most listened to podcasts was with Dr. Sachin Panda out of Silk Institute. He went on Huberman, so it's very happy when he came on our foot. But he did tons of research and he found that essentially there is this shifting for when you start eating later into the night, and that turning on in that pancreas impacts your ability to surge in that melatonin in the same way. So what do you do? You just have your last bite of food a little bit earlier into the evening, so you have enough time to make that all happen. So those are some of like the key components. But then what you would see one, it doesn't have to look super fancy either. So like, we love the Office and it's like fun and relaxing and, you know, just calming and great. So we might be watching a rerun of the Office as we're like winding down. Lately I've been into this PMF mat. And so you can lay on the mat, and that's calming. So there's different little tricks, but also having warm cup of something. So I'll have different things that I'm testing because, you know, these different companies, you'll test all kinds of different concoctions, but something that is kind of your anchor that you are starting to say, okay, this is time to wind down. Now I'm calming. And then certainly one really interesting thing, I've been calling it thought timing. And thought timing is essentially the knowledge that our thoughts exist on a circadian rhythm that. And so we're trying to support the types of thoughts that we wanna have that are not cortisol inducing. Because cortisol and melatonin are sort of friends in that you have cortisol in the first half of your day and melatonin at the end of your day. But if you start to kind of layer them over each other, they're at odds. So they're meant to work together, but on different ends, like a bookend to your day, not at the same time. So if you're stressing or if you're going down social media rabbit holes that are unpred and whatever going on, your email, you're talking about things that are stressful, all of that can help raise cortisol and lower melatonin. So those are some key components, not to mention like chronopharmacology. So we're not having our, you know, nightcap of wine or whatever. THC is a, you know, kind of controversial one because for a lot of people that can be helpful for falling asleep, but then could over time impact the quality of their sleep or you might get dependent on it that could impact the amount of REM you're having, et cetera, et cetera. So these are all different components. Also some things that we're not doing, not having a hardcore to workout or lots of extra movement that could then amp up the heart rate, et cetera, et cetera.
- [10:51]
B
Well, it's interesting because when you talk about cortisol and melatonin, it's almost like drinking a vodka Red Bull. It's like one thing is bringing you up and the other thing's bringing you down. Exact like the logic when you're 21 is like they'll cancel each other out, I'll be feeling good. But in reality they're just going to conflict and one's going to override the other. Right. So this, this notion of thought timing I think is really important because a lot of people don't recognize that they have the power of when to choose the thoughts that they allow into their mind. Right. And so when I think about that, it's like, do you check email before bed? Do you look at the next day before you go to bed? Like all of those things are playing into your thought timing, I would assume.
- [11:25]
A
Oh, I'm so glad you kind of underscored the thought timing piece. So for one thing, the some of the latest research that really points to this is called the mind after midnight study. And there's different studies on this, but this one we happen to have some of the lead researchers on the podcast and what they broke down was finding that in the wee hours of the morning, we tend to have very different types of logic happening with the type of thoughts we're having, which is so nuts. So basically, if you're having, if you think about the same topic at like 12pm, you know, lunchtime versus 12am, the likelihood is that you're gonna have much more kind of black and white thinking catastrophic thoughts and sadly, even suicidality rates going up in the wee hours in the morning, kind of taking action on what's perceived to be more of a, you know, dire situation than if we just could get ourselves to the light of day when suddenly it's like, oh, that problem's not that big of a deal.
- [12:23]
And so I think to some greater or lesser extent, probably most people can see themselves in having times where it's like, oh, yeah, like, I was so stressed about that thing at 3:00am but now, well, I guess for you. And then starting to wake up around that time. But okay, 1 or 2am and so then. But if we have this knowledge, it can be so helpful. Cause then we can have almost an inner contract with ourselves to maybe not believe some of these thoughts in the same way and certainly not indulge in some of these thoughts in the same way. So to your point, around some of the actions that we can be mindful of, that it's probably not the best time to go on the email to, you know, maybe open some of these particular apps that are more stressful. And then even as we're talking to like our partners or kids or what have you, even if we all have this in our language. So Blake will call me out on this a lot because he'll be like, is that good thought timing? You know, when I'll. Let's talk. Even if it's happy things, you know, like you stress, like eu stress can still be activating. And so if I'm like, we're going to Hawaii shortly. So if I'm like, oh, what are we gonna do for the trip? And like, what days and what times are we doing things? It's like, is that really the direction we wanna go right before bed? And so. And how can we realize that we have the power to kind of shift into what One of the top coaches for the Olympics for the sleep specific piece for it, we had him on the podcast twice. And one of the things that he noted was that you're looking to abstain from a lot of novelty in around 90 minutes or so before bed. And so that would look like maybe not the best time to watch the latest Netflix show or whatever. Even if it's like a super exciting books or things that are just gonna have all kinds of newness and like page turning situation. We instead just want kind of boring stuff, familiar stuff stuff, kind of like what you would do most likely. I don't have kids, but I can imagine for many people kind of just the routine. Now we're turning down the lights and this is what we always do. And all of that can signal both to kids but also us that it's time for sleep and not time to get all riled up essentially. Now the last thing I'll say too is if anyone is listening and it's like, can you get to like the supplements that are gonna knock me out or whatever. These are hard hitting things to the point that. Do you know Kirk Parsley by any chance? He's here in Austin. Oh my God. I'll have to connect you guys maybe if you're interested. He's fascinating. He's this. They come Doc Parsley because used to be active duty Navy seal, but the doctor for name for many Navy Seals for many years and years ago. He was getting so many Navy Seals off of Ambien and Lunestas and Benzos because he was taking a big stand for sleep and part of what he was doing for someone and continues to do this. But this was very weird back then because that was such an ethos of that kind of environment. It was like, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, like get less sleep, like that's the manly thing to do or whatever. And instead he helped them predominantly. One of the things, the tools that he mentions making such a difference for this really, you know, stressed group active duty on the ground. Often, you know, they might be seeing some things, doing some things that are would stress most people. And so he would have them simply do pretty much a brain dump of whatever is going on in their head. Whatever last mission they were just on whatever they saw or whatever and getting it all out onto paper and the difference that that can make to help take that action and kind of get complete about that or get into action for the next day. Like you said about maybe looking at your calendar or things that are on the lineup and that goes into what we're seeing at a cbti. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for insomnia or Act Acceptance Commitment Therapy for insomnia. And all of these are pointing to how can we kind of organize and be responsible for the types of thoughts that we're dealing with. And maybe these are kind of habit loops that we just have the tendency of ruminating on or stressing out about. But could we shift things and start to get in action around them and kind of get them up and out of our head and onto paper?
- [16:38]
B
Yeah. That was one of the things that changed my sleep was I used to struggle to fall asleep or wake up in the middle of the night with like the business idea or the thought or the plan for the Hawaii trip.
- [16:49]
A
Yes.
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B
And so I started sleeping with a journal next to my bed. Now I don't use it nearly as much as I used to today.
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A
Yes.
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B
But that was a big thing that helped me get out of those thoughts right before bed was like, get it on paper. Or if I'd wake up in the middle of the night, like, oh, there's the cure for cancer. I figured it out, write it down, and then I could fall back asleep.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Now one of the things I recognize is, like the culture we live in, society that we live in is actually training us to sleep poorly. And what I mean by that is the big football game starts at 7:30, 100. That great show.
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A
Yes.
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B
Debuts at 9:00pm yes. Because they know that's when people's lives are least busy and they can keep your attention and keep your eyeballs.
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A
Totally.
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B
But. But I also know, like, we can control that. Like you said the other night we were going to watch TV before bed, which we very, very rarely do, and I was flipping through Netflix and the new Ed Gein documentary.
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A
Oh, I haven't seen that, but okay, we didn't either.
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B
But I made the mistake of watching the trailer.
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A
Oh. Oh, man.
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B
And like, if you watch the trailer of a horror movie before you go to bed, you're not gonna sleep nearly as well as you probably should. Right. And you start having all these weird dreams, all these weird thoughts, and all these negative, you know, patterns start to show up in your sleep.
- [18:00]
A
Yes.
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B
But what I've also recognized is that what we put in our body impacts our sleep. So I think it's ironic that you said we want to control the environment and get it cold.
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A
Yes.
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B
But we also want to drink something warm.
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A
Oh, isn't that interesting? Yes.
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B
Why do we drink something warm?
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A
Yeah.
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B
In a cold environment.
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A
So good. And that kind of points to one of the things I just did yesterday as part of the wind down piece was actually getting a sauna. And so it's like, what in the world? Get your story straight. Like, what is it? Is it cooling? Is it more and it is. That's such a astute observation because it's paradoxical lexical in that we are looking to when oddly when we expose ourselves to heat, then the after effect is that we tend to actually cool to levels that we would not have cooled without that intervention, which is so odd. And then the inverse seems to apply with cold therapy. So if you jump in a cold plunge, then naturally, obviously you're gonna cool down. But then when you get out, then over time the body is almost, it's almost like it overshoots and tries to recalibrate to warm you up. And then you're warmer than you might have been without that intervention. But also you're having physiological effects that would more align with the daytime for the cold. So now you're having a dopamine head, you're having sort of that almost like a mini stress response, but in a positive, you kind of just have an alert wake promoting effect. So that seems, current wisdom seems to point to largely doing that by day. Now there is nuance and some people do respond differently because over time, despite that sort of stress response, we do see that it helps support a parasympathetic response down the road. And people can chill out more. Very confusing. However, for the most, at least from the effects, the acute immediate effects that we'd largely want to put that a little bit closer to during the daytime and then at night cooling heat to cool. And naturally when we think of people getting into like a warm bath and that's so historic that we would see, oh yeah, that's calming of course that would like help you wind down so you're being exposed to that heat. And a warm shower can help all this too. But you are trying to have enough of a buffer so that now the body has time to cool down and get to those cool cooler levels essentially. And then same rules or same thinking with the calming and kind of parasympathetic response of holding something warm. But also just these anchor habits that are more Padlovian. So if you were, could be, you know, you rub a sculpture or something, you always do it every time at night when you're starting to get tired, you could almost train yourself to do anything that will help having that kind of calming effect. So so I'd say those anchor habits because then that can have a. So spillover into oh, this is time to wind down. But even the physiological piece of cooling the body down because when we are trying to get ready for sleep, we're trying to support a preparatory set of physio physiological and psychological responses. So say one thing that we see people do sometimes is, oh well, I've heard melatonin helps. So like right before bed, let me throw back some melatonin. And not here to say like, oh yes, Melatonin, no melatonin per se, but I would say it doesn't really work like an Ambien or something. And so there's more of a longer effect that if you were to take that a few hours before bed, then that's helping to cool down the body, lower the heart rate, supports this preparation for sleep. Cause also when you think of sleep too, if you think of the brain state that we might be in, especially if we're in a time that we're thinking about sleep, because maybe we've been stressed out or whatever then. And I work with tons of entrepreneurs and poker players and so often they might be really kind of revved up in certain areas, myself included. So I have to like have enough of a Runway to then support if we're in sort of this beta brain state, like this busy brain activation, to have that Runway space to lower the brain activation and kind of calm to be able to transition to this very strange state, which is sleep. And as odd as can be in that we're training for our brain to go down to these deep rich delta states that are so slow and you have to really have a sense of being at peace and safe enough to go into that really vulnerable state essentially.
- [22:31]
B
So I'm sort of conflicted because some of my best HRV scores have come after I've cold plunged right before bed.
- [22:39]
A
Yeah.
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B
But what I hear you saying is there's a ton of science to support a lot of the things you're sharing, but it's not an exact science.
- [22:46]
A
Yes.
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B
What's most important is self awareness and realizing what you and your body need. Yeah, somebody's listening to this, going like, oh, I love to cold plunge before bed. Or I love to take that melatonin right before I go to sleep. Or I love to watch that Ed Gein documentary right before I go to bed. How do they go about that self awareness piece to know what their Runway looks like, what their wind down schedule needs to look like and what gets their body into the right state state to get the best sleep.
- [23:13]
A
Yeah, totally. And just to hit on what you said there with the cold plunging and hrv so good. Because one of the things that really seems to impact HRV is temperature. So that's one of the reasons why I see such a media effect when people either Use something like Chilly sleep or bedjet or eight Sleep or what have you. Something that can cool the body and all of that. Even though it sounds so fancy and like, oh come on, why do you need to have all that to sleep? It's really trying to mimic again what's happening outside. Because the thinking is for so many years we would have slept on the ground and the ground would have been the coolest place in the environment. So we would have always almost had like our own natural sort of chili pad or what have you. So that temperature can really impact hrv. So kind of being aware of that now. It's just also one of the reasons why people seem to love to like start their day with a cold plunge. Is that like, woo, you know, just that, I mean aliveness is really there. So it's a bit at odds for some people with the novelty piece because now it's like I could run a marathon or whatever and then it's like time to go to sleep. But we do see there are certain people. Who was it? I think it was maybe Rhonda Patrick talking about how oddly her husband kind of defied some of what you tend to see for people where he does great with cold plunging and then you know, kind of easing into sleep. And it does make sense, especially for some people that seem to have a more notable parasympathetic response. And that just like really helps to support this chilling out for them. No pun intended. So yes, the nuance, the awareness. And can you audit your results? Because if it's working for you, great. Like, you know, and how can you audit that kind of goes back to wearables really shining in that piece. Because what, you know, gets measured, gets managed. If we start to see over time trends where, oh, these new activities that we're doing. Oh actually though, our HRV over time is going down. Our heart rate's going up a little bit, respiratory rate's going up. Maybe we're seeing changes in blood oxygen or if we have sleep apnea, upper air resistance syndrome, more severity of that, you know, so we can test and see what's at play there. But if people aren't interested in doing that too, you can do old school kind of sleep diary. That used to be the suggestion for people. When you go in and you're struggling with your sleep, they would have you write out manually. My problem with that for really getting up under the hood is, I mean we have only our best guess at what is going on. And for things like we were talking about sleep apnea Most people have no idea they're dealing with any of this. They just say, oh, I wake up to go pee a few times, but no clue that they're struggling in any which way. So I would say wearables and, or testing for these other sleep disorders or just the quality of your sleep can really be another factor as well. And I do think we're right on the helm of starting to have more diagnostic level.
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Tech that we can wear day to day. It's not quite there yet, but there's a lot of rumbles of those appearing which could be amazing and really shed light.
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B
It starts with how you feel though, right? I mean, how are you feeling? And if you're not feeling well.
- [26:32]
A
Yes.
- [26:32]
B
Start to do audits, whether it's through your blood work or through your sleep.
- [26:35]
A
Yes.
- [26:36]
B
And most people, I think, can have a pretty good sense of where they're at just based off of how they feel.
- [26:42]
A
Sure. Yeah.
- [26:43]
B
I wake up, I feel good, I wake up, I feel bad. Right. How do you feel?
- [26:48]
A
Yeah.
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B
For most people, are there supplements or things in their diet you would suggest for or against prior to sleep to optimize their sleep?
- [26:58]
A
Yes. So good. Okay. Well, one other test that you can often see a potential correlation of how well you're sleeping pretty quickly is a continuous glucose monitor. Have you.
- [27:11]
B
Yeah, that's.
- [27:11]
A
Yeah, of course. So one of the things you can pretty quickly see is if you didn't get sufficient sleep or quality of sleep, then over time we tend to be much more volatile of our results there to the point that Aura was confident enough to invest, I want to say it was like 75 million or many, many millions, into kind of partnering with Dexcom, one of the lead producers of continuous glucose monitors, to then be able to overlay that data with your sleep data. So you can really make the case that because most people, like you mentioned the kind of early morning awakening, but partly by design, but many people will have these wake ups and that's their super frustrating thing that they're dealing with with their sleep. And one of the more common things that we see over time and time again is that your metabolism is playing a role in those. The number of wake ups that you're having and the type of wake ups where you wake up and now you can't fall back asleep or you're struggling a bit more because the body just had this major stress response because nothing can be quite more stressful than a spike in glucose and then this plummeting crash. So then now you have this surge of sort of Something's wrong, chemicals and then the body struggling to be able to be safe and at ease enough to fall back asleep. So wearing something like that can be just a helpful check in. Then definitely the blood work piece. And I say that because that's one of the areas that we find to be so helpful so that you're actually having more tailored supplemental protocols versus just, you know, any given stack. And you see so many people with these sleep supplement stacks guaranteed. Very rarely have I seen a particular supplement stack just completely move the needle. And I should say too that we have a very large database of Oura Ring users especially not to mention, you know, we see people with whoop and Biostrap and all these other things. But these really can show the whole story as far as like what's going to make a difference measurably and sparingly. Is it some sort of supplement related piece? However, I will see if someone tests and they have a more in depth functional medicine kind of lab testing, then maybe this standard doctor might do. Then we can see for instance, oh wow, this person's really low in iodine, copper, zinc, their B vitamins and things like B vitamins and iron and other things really commonly playing such a role in mental health as well. And so when we address those or their omega levels or other things, oh my God, they're suddenly the sleep results are really starting to shift. So. So all that to say that if we can test, not guess, that seems to make such a difference. Now some blanket things that we can often see, things like magnesium are often pretty high safety profile unless you have like really low heart rate or certain things at play. So that's a common one for recommendation for sleep. Although we still do need more research on this even though we see it so commonly shared. And then there is evidence to support melatonin for particularly jet lag. So if anyone is planning to travel long haul, I always have everyone use the Timeshifter app. And that one is very science driven. And so they're only kind of making recommendations that they have tons of science behind it. And so melatonin being one of those things and they show where to drip that in. And also oddly, caffeine being a wake promoting cue, so that when you layer those things in the perceived or the time that's supposed to be daytime, then that's acting as a trigger for that strong cortisol pulse by day at the time you want and then that strong melatonin pulse by night. That's also why things I always, I was just on another live podcast. And I also had this and I had to be like this is not a monster drink or something cause it looks so ridiculous. But it's more of a sleep friendly caffeine options. It's paraxanthine. And paraxanthine seems to not affect adenosine in the same ways. So things like that. Now we also see somewhat of a controversial newer piece like hydrogen almost acting as a supplemental option. You can hydrogen tabs. And so all these things that can you make the argument can these approach and support mitochondrial health is really the camp that I'm a bit more in. And this has also been referred to as being like a mitochondriac, if you will, so that you're very mitochondrial supportive. Because we're finding more and more research to support that the healthier mitochondria. Like there's this huge study that just came out just a few months ago that pointed to mitochondria being one of the things that actually drives sleep pressure and being at the source of almost like shutting down the systems. Even if you want to stay up longer, your mitochondria is just like a party over. But in order to sleep well, you have to have your mitochondria functioning on all cylinders. That's partly why you see things like things of ketosis or ketones and people taking ketones. Because all that's meant to support both brain health and mitochondrial health. And that can all be an argument that that could support things like sleep. So that's a long way to say that I would almost very rarely next to never start with supplements for people to really get up under what's going on for most people with their sleep. However, I will also say that one of the very common thing that we see when people are struggling with their sleep is low vitamin D. And because most of us are low in vitamin D nowadays. And yet vitamin D is part of that cocktail to create serotonin to then create melatonin. And so if we're low in vitamin D, it's like good luck being able to create sufficient melatonin not only just to fall asleep, but to stay asleep throughout the course of the night and to feel good. And you know, serotonin is one of those kind of like all is well type neurotransmitters. And how do we get that? None other than being outside more routinely throughout the course of the day and access to sunlight more throughout most of the year was a big part of why I actually moved here to Austin in Texas is because that was one of the lower latitude location in the United States. And yet if you look at higher latitude locations in the United States, you see much more of a prevalence of these mitochondrial based diseases like Ms. And other problems from a lack of sunlight. So if we could also think of supplements being like getting out in the sun and even red light panels, some of these things that you could think of versus just supplements being to take, could we have phototherapy and photobiomodulation as a supplemental support?
- [34:15]
B
So what I hear you saying is when people listen to this podcast and then all of a sudden the ad engines start to pop up like guaranteed good sleep. This supplement, this magic pill, this magic ointment, just pause and do some research. Go deep on your blood work, go deep on your environment and don't just guess, don't just throw pasta at the wall and see what sticks.
- [34:36]
A
Beautifully said. Such wisdom there. Exactly. And then I guess you know the other piece that I would mention because I love how we started talking about, because you're so great to share, like what your sleep schedule looks like. I do definitely want to put out that a problem that we've seen too is where people think, I have to get this eight hours. I have to, you know, oh, I saw Roger Federer or whoever is getting all these hours of sleep. So I guess that's what high performers do. So you hear all different types of things about even things like because the quality of sleep depends on many factors, duration just being one aspect of that, and even that has a lot of variance. It's often referred to as like a shoe size. You know, there's very different shoe sizes for each individual and you try to wear another shoe size, it's not gonna, you know, look great for you. However, we do see that average healthy adults tend to fall in to a bit of this like U shaped curve where most of the time it's seven to nine hours of sleep. But there does seem to be this smattering on either side where they might have a little bit less than 7 hours or they might have a little bit more than nine hours and that could be healthy for those individuals. Now I will call out that there is a decent amount of research and there was.
- [35:59]
A big study that came out a few years ago that pointed to if we're consistently getting less than around six hours of sleep night after night after night, certain things did seem to spike for a number of people. So certainly obesity, stroke, cognitive decline and death from any cause known as all cause mortality and also heart health. So those are just some of the things that seem to be noteworthy. So it seems to be from that sleep duration piece something for us to check in on. And I would also say too that. Cause sometimes people hear that and then they think oh okay, well maybe I just need to kind of move things around and you know, kind of sleep in on certain days or you know, whatever. Sleep consistency like you were pointing to be very consistent is like one of the best gifts you can give to sleep because sleep loves consistency, loves to go to sleep at a rap the same time, wake up at around the same time. So all those things are going to really support our circadian health and our overall health and well being. So then if we can just even keep tweaking and experimenting and seeing, you know what could serve us even if we started to play with changing around bedtime wake time by a little bit, 15 minutes on each day or what have you. And so that could be an exciting thing for you too is like kind of experimenting and seeing what the changes might be but the consistency factor being such a huge one. So those are just some aspects of what like how you can take a toll or to understand how good is my sleep anyway because half the time people don't even know because most people are not getting that great of sleep nowadays. Unfortunately.
- [37:47]
B
Gobundance is a community of over 800 high performers, entrepreneurs and investors with a combined net worth of over $5.7 billion. But look, it's not just about the money. We're about building lives of abundance. If you're ready for a tribe that challenges you to achieve a higher standard for yourself, visit gobundance.com tribe that's G O B U N-A-N-C-E.com T R I B E To apply today.
- [38:18]
I don't need a lot of sleep. I'm just one of those people that has been blessed or is fortunate to not need that much sleep.
- [38:24]
A
Yes.
- [38:25]
B
And I do think there is a pool of the world that's not just my own bullshit that just for some whatever reason can function at a high level without a ton of sleep.
- [38:32]
A
Yeah.
- [38:33]
B
Now I do think we can go extreme there. Like sleep, from everything I've read and seen is one of the number one indicators of longevity.
- [38:39]
A
Yes.
- [38:40]
B
Now I'll argue, I don't know if it's one of the number one indicators of health span. Health span is more important to me than longevity. I want to live the fullest life possible while I'm here on this earth.
- [38:50]
A
Yes.
- [38:50]
B
And if I'm truly going to sleep for 26 years of my life. Like, not this guy, like I'm cutting that down. But at the end of the day, it's all about being consistent. I found. And I've always felt the best when I'm, when I'm consistent. And I'm a big believer in the experimenting thing. Like I've played with the times, I've played with the wake up, I've played with the go to bed sleep. But one of the things I find is a lot of people experiment for a day and then judge that result.
- [39:14]
A
Oh my God, I see that all the time. And granted, I don't mean to say it like that, because I was one of those people when I was struggling with my sleep, it was like, just tell me, like, what is the thing that's going to make my sleep work again? And so I would hear these. I remember this is the most dramatically ridiculous thing I was doing at the height of all this. I'd read somewhere about literally boiling banana peels. This was a potassium, some ridiculous thing. And then you do this each night. That was the height of just hinging all my hopes on some external thing. And half the time when we're doing that, it's just not going to come to us either. Because largely if sleep is working, if our lives are working, if sleep being often a barometer of the workability of our lives, it's such a beautiful indicator that something's not working in your life. I mean, and if you looked at the history of the lead up to that, I was stressed out to the max, living in Manhattan, serial entrepreneur, burning the candle at both ends, totally inconsistent with bedtime wake time. So it's like no surprise that this would have happened. And so. But to your point, one of the things that we'll often see is people just they try one thing for one night and then, oh, that didn't work for me. That was trash. And yet sleep often, because it's a really intricate thing that's happening and is pulling on many different hormones and all kinds of aspects of our health and well being that don't just happen overnight for the most part now, fast things are usually an absence or addition of certain drugs that are going to notably show up in unequivocally. I mean, one of the clearest things that I see for people with wearables is, oh my God, I had no idea what alcohol was doing to my sleep or what THC or whatever was doing my sleep. And then that just becomes clear overnight. Also, temperature is a big one, like an overnight piece. Not to mention Meal timing being another big one. So those are some of the clear ones that happen just immediately. But there's a lot of other things that take compounding or, you know, extended time to see the results.
- [41:18]
B
What temperature is your room?
- [41:20]
A
Oh, man. So I sleep really cool. So we have our temperature set around 64. And then we also have the cooling mattress toppers. So then those cool quite a bit. And I honestly could probably sleep even a little bit cooler than that. So there's some sort of. I mean, I have Irish blood. I don't know what is going on there. But I will say, even on the National Sleep foundation, the recommendations are between 60 to 67 degrees Fahrenheit for kind of optimal sleep support. Now, we're not trying to make people, like, wildly uncomfortable or struggle with their ability to fall asleep because they're, like, you know, shivering. None of that. But for the average person, if we could just go a little bit cooler, often we see really great supports with so many people say, how do I improve my deep sleep? How do I improve some of these metrics? And deep sleep is really aided commonly by temperature and sleeping cooler. So if you could kind of bring in that cooling piece, at least for the front end now on the second end by warming up a little bit. And if you think of the analogy we're talking about sleeping outside.
- [42:33]
What would have happened is as the sun is starting to rise and now the whole environment's starting to warm up, that mix of both the light exposure and temperature going up would be those signals to wake up and REM in the morning hours. It's almost like a starting the engines effect, because now we've got this, like, movie screen that we're playing, getting us going and kind of awakening. And if you were to look at EEG readouts, our brain activity is so it looks like you're awake if. If you didn't realize that the person was just asleep in the other room. If you just saw the brain waves, they look totally awake. But then also their body temperature is usually starting to go up a bit and almost preparing you to now, because if you were to just wake up in the deepest of sleep when you're so cool, literally physically cool, and the brain is in such a slow state, if anyone's been awoken during those, it's just really hard to kind of get moving and what have you. So that is just another beautifully intricate way that the body is able to help set us up for success. Now, one aspect of sleep that a lot of people see with their wearables is you're trying to have more of a hammock shape effect with your heart rate versus waiting until right before you wake up for the heart rate to finally get to one of its lowest points, which I see that a lot. If people are either really stressed before sleep, they had tons of bright light, they were eating late, all of the or drugs of some type. So then it took so long, all those hours for the body to kind of cool down and calm down to be able to have that nice lower heart rate. So if you have that effect, then you're going to be really struggling that morning. So there's all these little nuances to help support that when you wake up up, you're like ready to be up.
- [44:17]
B
Yeah. And I could tell somebody's listening to this, like, goes home like, honey, we got to turn the house cold, right?
- [44:22]
A
Yes.
- [44:23]
B
And my wife and I both have the chili pad and we both can choose our own temperature. Right. It's like got the split in the middle. She can go one way, I can go the other way.
- [44:32]
A
Yes.
- [44:33]
B
We can sleep as cold or as warm as we prefer.
- [44:35]
A
Yes.
- [44:35]
B
Now, science says the colder the better, but some people just don't want to be cold. They don't enjoy being cold. And some people's environment for sleep is different than other people's environment for sleep. I've never heard you be one to encourage divorce, but I have heard you encourage a sleep divorce.
- [44:53]
A
Yes.
- [44:54]
B
So what is a sleep divorce? What does that look like?
- [44:56]
A
I love that you asked that. Because that is. Our most listened to podcast Today is with Dr. Wendy Truckstall, who wrote the book, sharing the covers. And so she talks about one. Because a sleep divorce has kind of become in vogue. And I think that's part of why it's one of our most listened to is just from SEO perspective, people being like, get me away from this person or whatever. And so sleep divorce comes up, but she's trying to kind of rebrand it to a sleep alliance. So if you're having an alliance, then it's much more in communication and in partnership. And then together we're choosing to sleep in separate rooms or what have you.
- [45:34]
Now, we've seen different times where that can make a ton of sense for people. Some just even pragmatically, like different shifts of work or whatever. And so some people are coming in when other people are needing to get up or whatever. So the timepiece. But then if we've got sleep disorders and still trying to navigate that and there's snoring or movement Too active in their sleep, restless leg syndrome, periodic limb movement disorder, other things and. Or the sleep alliance is supposed to potentially extend to kids, to pets, to all like the party that might be happening in the bedroom. So how can we set up a situation where mindfully we might be choosing, okay, it is time to. For different people to be in different sectors of the house. And part of what she speaks to is perception versus reality is commonly a little skewed on. So many people will say, oh my gosh, this, I sleep so much better with my partner. We cuddle, it's great. I feel so safe and at ease and like, if they travel, it's so hard for me and yada yada. And yet we might see on actual research that they might actually have more wake ups throughout the course of the night or more sleep fragmentation. But the perception is one of being more at peace and at ease. So sometimes that part's a little questionable. And wearables can at least, maybe not diagnostically, but they can give us more information on how are we doing and does it seem to look better when we're in separate rooms. And you can also use this kind of communication aspect of saying, well, if it's really important me to sleep in the same bedroom as my significant other or kids or whatever, then using this time to kind of test and tweak so that we can find the thing that works to keep everyone in the same bedroom too. And that might be the CO2 levels that might be, you know, different, you know, white noise machines in case there's any type of disruption, just little changes and finally treating that snoring, finally treating that sleep apnea and to making sure that we're getting up under what might be in the way of great sleep over time.
- [47:44]
B
It's funny because my wife and I had to get a sleep divorce from the dog.
- [47:48]
A
Oh, really? Yes, that's.
- [47:49]
B
We never let the dog in the bed. One time I was traveling for work and she was like, like, I'll let the dog sleep in the bed. Well, then one night turned to two, two turns to three. The next thing you know, in the middle of the night, the dog's burrowing under the COVID standing up in the middle of the night, shaking, waking us up. And I was like, we're done with this. She was like, we're done with this. So, yes, you know, the dog has been banned from our bed forever. Dog still sleeps in our room, but has its own bed, is trained to go to the bed. Life is great. But I think for me it's all about just self awareness and like, just being aware of what's working and what's not working and not being unwilling to change if it's not working. So many people are like, well, I've always fallen asleep with the tv. Or my favorite line is I have to fall asleep with the tv. Like I'll travel with some friends, we'll go to this annual golf tournament and one of the guys I share a room with, he'd be like, I always fall asleep with the TV on. And I was like, or you could just say you used to fall asleep. You no longer fall asleep with the TV on. But at the end of the day, sleep is important. Yeah, we all need it, we all get it. Generally speaking. I mean, whether we get a lot or a little good or bad, it's up for interpretation. When somebody says I need to sleep better, what do you encourage them to truly look at first? Where do they start?
- [49:07]
A
Yeah, well, I can share. So for instance, with our one on one clients, you know, assuming and granted some of these might be a little bit of investments because most of the stuff that we're talking about is completely free, it's behavioral, it's getting outside, it's being more consistent, et cetera. But if it's in the budget and would make an argument that this could be a strong investment is a number of tests. First on the front end just to make sure we're not stepping over anything. So that's where we do the sleep test. And usually they're around like 150 bucks for at home tests. Now some people go in lab but not feeling like that's the only way to do it. You can totally do it just super easily. It's just like a watch or a ring. So testing then also blood work, testing to see. For instance, I just had a client that had really low B vitamins that showed up on their lab work. And there's something that then we could tweak at both diet and then supplements and in a relatively short period of time that showed up in their results with their sleep. So doing that lab work, then continuous glucose monitors also to check in the metabolism piece because so commonly we'll see people that say, oh yeah, I have my morning protein shake and this, that and the other, and who knew that they're spiking and then they're crashing and they're just setting themselves up for metabolic chaos from the start of the day and then it's, that's spilling over into their nights. So beginning with those, then we create kind of this circadian crafted day. And it sounds like yours is quite beautifully already set up and consistent, you know, and then maybe it's like a little exploring. So like, oh, could we sleep in maybe a little extra 15 minutes here and see what happens there for extended period of time. But for the average person, they might have pretty consistent by week and then the weekends come and then they sleep in or they have coping mechanisms to kind of deal with the poor quality of sleep that they've been getting. So then with that we set it up and then we practice and learn what are some of these other things that can help support the, the shifting and the cementing of some of this. So one, every person, we have two anchor habits that we start with specifically. One is that light exposure and getting that by day like every single morning. So sunlight anchoring. So I ideally around sunrise spilling into UVA rise. And you're getting that at around the same time. So it's. The second anchor piece is that you're waking up at around the same time seven days a week, plus or minus 30 minutes. So we kind of take a fine tooth comb and design all of that. But then we say like what else is wake promoting that we could bring in? So bright light exposure from nature. So getting yourself outside movement is another wake promotion promoter. Meals, so having our breakfasts in the morning caffeine can be another wake promoter or paraxanthine or whatever that's going to be supportive of kind of that wake promotion cold plunging, all of these different stacks that tell the body unequivocally it's time to get up. Because we do know that delayed cortisol pulse is a common signature of insomnia. So if we can move that earlier on in the day, then that can often make a difference. And then we flip everything on the other side of that at night. So downshifting. So there's a great book called the power of the Down State. And that one actually brings in more HRV information. And it's training us of how to downshift. Because many of us, you know, high performers and all the things, it's like we can be up all the time, but the downshifting part, gross. And so the difference that we can train that muscle to downshift a bit more and even measurably so you can see the changes in your HRV when you're downshifting. And so how can we get more proficient at that at night and have the environment match that? So now it's darker, it's cooler, it's Quiet. It's very, you know, familiar. All of those things happening each night. And then when we actually get into our bed, all those things have been checked out. We've already discussed. Discussed. Okay, who's in the bedroom? Are we okay with them being in there? Do we like this? Is it totally dark? Is it quiet? Have we just kind of taken care of all these things now? You can hear this podcast and be like, ugh, it's so many things to be able to sleep and. Or you could consider it that. All right, there's just a little bit of prep on the front end, and we take a little bit of time, maybe if you want to get nuts and put red film on your, you know, refrigerator or whatever. But you do these things, and then over time, then it's set and forget, and then you don't even really have to think about it. Is the difference.
- [53:50]
B
It's all about just making it a habit, part of your routine. I mean, you don't think about brushing your teeth and how much of a pain it is to squeeze the toothpaste out of the tube onto the brush and brush and then wash the tooth. Like, yes, you just make it second nature. You just make it a part of your routine and a part of your habits.
- [54:05]
A
And so beautifully said.
- [54:06]
B
I mean no disrespect when I say this, but somebody's listening to this and going like, damn, she's a sleep nerd. I really. I really want to work with this woman. I want her to help me optimize my sleep, my routine, my circadian rhythm. How do they find you? How do they work with you? How do they learn more about what you're up to?
- [54:22]
A
Yeah, well, I'm so glad you said that. And I should also put into.
- [54:26]
That. I truly, my mission on the planet is to help support as many people in optimizing their sleep as possible, partly because I come from a family of a lot of mental health issues. And so when I went through my whole, whole period of insomnia, I was like, oh, no, I'm gonna be coming like the rest of my family. I'm gonna be all kinds of medications and all these things. And sadly, when I went to different doctors at different. And granted, I was traveling at the time, so I was in, like, Croatia and Budapest and all these places, and each time was left with sleeping pills. And it was one of these things of. Is this really how we're treating these problems right now? And very concerning and scary because many of these hardcore medications are ones that are not approved for long term use. And when people start taking them for long term, all kinds of messy stuff happens with like Xanax and Ambiens and Lunesses and it just can become a big problem.
- [55:16]
So my mission is to really be able to get out this information, to know that there's an alternative path that doesn't just have to look like okay pills or bust, you know, and that. And even if it's not a dramatic kind of story like that, if someone's listening, like I'm not dealing with that. I just simply want to optimize. Great. Then we can also see all these beautiful things that could be possible from a productivity standpoint. Longevity, vanity, anti aging, all these great things coming out from optimizing your sleep and building that actual skill set and knowing that, and hopefully it's taking on this kind of ethos or maxim that sleep is a skill and that it's not just some people are good at it and some people stink at it that all of us can kind of learn more. So that's my ode to sleep. But I would say if people are looking to get some support so they can go to sleepisaskill.com tons of free stuff there. So you can listen to our podcast. We have almost 300 episodes with different sleep experts. We have a weekly newsletter that's been going out every month, Monday for almost for over seven years. So we've never missed a Monday. We have online courses, we have one on ones. We have audits of different wearable information too. So if they kind of just want more of a one off, they've been wearing the aura whoop, you know, garment, et cetera. And they just want to get some information around what can I do to make a difference? Changing some of this data. So lots of different levels also of commitment. And even if you just want to dip your toe in the water, if you just want people free stuff, but if you do want additional support, then we can all help all that at Sleep as a skill Dot com.
- [56:59]
B
Well, I really enjoyed the conversation. I have to say, one of the things that you have given me is the recognition that sleep is a skill. I used to just think some people were born to sleep and some people weren't.
- [57:09]
A
That was me too. Yeah.
- [57:10]
B
And it kind of has always served me because I wasn't born to sleep. So I was like, y' all got enough time to go sleep? I got too many goals to go sleep.
- [57:16]
A
Yes.
- [57:16]
B
So like that. That served me and my ego and my narrative. But what I learned when I first met you Was that sleep is truly a skill. It's no different than running on a treadmill. The more we work on it, the more we commit to it, the more we pay attention on it, the better we can get at it. And just because I'm sleeping poorly today doesn't mean that I'm a bad sleeper.
- [57:35]
A
Beautifully said. Yes. And I'm so glad you noted that. Just as a great bow to put on things is that sleep is dynamic. And so there'll be periods of time in our life, and certainly new parents can attest to this, that there's stretches of time where sleep is not looking as hot. But then there's other times where sleep is really working and it can be a nice cue and a time to reflect on. This is how life looks for me when I'm kind of in flow, in sync, and there's workability. And then sleep is this beautiful kind of alert system when things are not working in the body and nervous system, et cetera, is asking for some shifts or changes to be made. Often sleep will be part of that. And so if you're willing to look and to get curious and also to know that it's all available to you to your point around, you know, trying on at least this idea that it's a skill set. So love, love that you said that.
- [58:27]
B
Try it all. Just not the tinfoil hack.
- [58:29]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [58:29]
B
Yeah.
- [58:30]
A
Don't get too nuts. Yeah. And exactly. Don't get too neurotic, because that's the weird thing. I know that I'm sitting here and I have this whole company around world the sleep. But oddly, what we're. What we're aiming to do is it's a success for me. If we have clients that come in, we do all these tweaks, but then they really don't have to think about their sleep at the end of the day. And it just all works. That's the whole goal.
- [58:48]
B
That's what it's all about.
- [58:49]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [58:50]
B
Thank you so much for your time. Appreciate you.
- [58:52]
A
Thank you. You're the best. So appreciate it.
- [58:54]
B
Thank you.
- [59:02]
Sa.