The Matt King Show Episode 038: Mollie Eastman | How To Fix Your Sleep Without Sleeping Pills Date: December 9, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features Mollie Eastman, founder of “Sleep Is A Skill,” in an in-depth discussion with Matt King about the science and art of sleep optimization—without relying on sleeping pills. Drawing on research, personal experience, and extensive coaching practice, Mollie offers actionable insights and practical tweaks for improving sleep quality, addressing nighttime routines, environment, physiological rhythms, and the major misconceptions around sleep aids. The conversation is both science-driven and approachable, aiming to empower listeners to view sleep as a learnable skill rather than a fixed trait.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sleep as a Barometer of Life (00:00–00:43)

• Sleep reflects overall life balance. When sleep falters, it's often a sign something deeper is off.
• Quote:
  "If sleep is working, if our lives are working, if sleep being often a barometer of the workability of our lives, it's such a beautiful indicator that something's not working in your life." — Mollie Eastman (00:00)

2. Problems with Sleeping Pills (00:20–00:43, 55:00–55:16)

• Concern over the common path of prescribing long-term sleep medication (e.g., Ambien, Lunesta, Xanax)—these are not approved for long-term use.
• "Is this really how we're treating these problems right now? ... All kinds of messy stuff happens with like Xanax and Ambiens and Lunesses..." — Mollie (00:20; 55:09)

3. Digital Detox and Environment Tweaks (00:53–02:21)

• Main advice: Keep phones out of the bedroom and minimize exposure to electronics near sleep space, mimicking natural environments.
• Consider "sleep bubbles"—an 8-foot radius free from electronic devices.
• Creative options like EMF tents, but the ultimate goal is to imitate natural sleep conditions indoors.
• Quote:
  "It's really all this fanciness to mimic what happens in nature, like when you just are outside camping on the ground." — Mollie (01:41)

4. Light, Technology, and Circadian Rhythms (02:21–05:08)

• Blue light from devices at night disrupts melatonin and sleep cycles.
• Use dim lighting, candles (7 lux), or warm-color bulbs at night—Edison-style and Himalayan salt lamps were cited for their sleep-friendly spectrum.
• Light apps (e.g., Circadian app) can help track sunrise/sunset and optimize indoor lighting exposure.
• Refrigerator light hack: Use red film over fridge lights to avoid harsh, melatonin-disrupting bursts.
• Quote:
  "Can you play a game to get it around double digits and then even single digits as we get closer to bedtime?" — Mollie (02:41)

5. Temperature, Meal Timing & Metabolic Signals (05:09–11:00)

• Lowering room temperature at night signals to the body that it’s time to sleep.
• Eating late (especially post-sunset) disrupts melatonin production and sleep quality due to metabolic activation.
• Optimal to have the last meal earlier in the evening.
• Reference to Dr. Satchin Panda’s research on circadian eating.
• Quote:
  "Temperature can also tell you what time and what to be doing when. So if you start lowering that light and you lower the temperature, then that can help support a surge in melatonin production." — Mollie (05:08)

6. Thought Timing & Nighttime Stress (11:01–16:38)

• Avoid stress-inducing thoughts or stimulating activities (email, novel shows) before bed; cortisol and melatonin rhythms oppose each other.
• New research (Mind After Midnight) shows logic and cognition are impaired late at night, leading to catastrophizing and even risk of self-harm.
• Create a pre-bed period (90 min) free from novelty; engage in routine, familiar activities.
• “Brain dumping” —writing down worries or ideas before bed relieves mental clutter (strategy used with Navy SEALs and in CBT-I).
• Quote:
  "You're looking to abstain from a lot of novelty in around 90 minutes or so before bed." — Mollie (12:55)

7. Societal Barriers to Healthy Sleep (17:06–18:00)

• Culture and modern entertainment (late-night sports, TV) are programmed to disrupt natural sleep tendencies.
• The misconception: “I have to fall asleep with the TV on” is more behavioral conditioning than biological need.

8. Paradox of Warm Drinks & Sauna in a Cool Space (18:00–22:31)

• Drinking something warm or having a sauna before bed can help by creating an after-effect of body cooling, which promotes deeper sleep.
• Cold plunges and saunas impact sleep differently per individual; general advice is to use heat to cool before bed and cold exposure for alertness in the morning/day.
• Anchor habits (e.g., warm beverage) signal the body it’s wind-down time.

9. Importance of Self-Awareness and “Auditing” Results (22:31–26:35)

• There’s no single “ideal” routine—track personal results with wearables (Oura, Whoop), blood work, or sleep diaries.
• Key is to test, tweak, and observe how you feel; "what gets measured gets managed."

10. Supplements, Nutrition, and the “Magic Pill” Myth (26:48–34:35)

• Most “magic” sleep supplements are oversold; rarely does a supplement stack alone solve insomnia.
• Exceptions: magnesium (generally safe), melatonin (helpful for jet lag), and correcting specific deficiencies (vitamin D, iron, B vitamins) based on blood work.
• Mitochondrial health is emerging as key to sleep pressure and overall quality; sunlight and movement are “supplements.”
• Quote:
  "Very rarely have I seen a particular supplement stack just completely move the needle." — Mollie (29:18)
• Be wary of targeted ads for “sleep cures.” Start with comprehensive personal assessment instead.

11. Duration, Consistency, and Sleep “Myths” (34:36–41:17)

• Sleep requirement is individual (like shoe size), but 7–9 hours is a healthy range for most.
• Consistency in bedtime and wake-up is more important than simply achieving a fixed duration (sleep loves regularity).
• Overly rigid reliance on sleep trackers/data can backfire.
• Experiments in sleep habits should be given time to show results—overnight fixes are rare.
• Quote:
  "Sleep is dynamic … there will be periods of time in our life, certainly new parents can attest, where sleep is not looking as hot." — Mollie (57:34)

12. Temperature Tweaks and Morning Routines (41:17–44:34)

• National Sleep Foundation recommends 60–67°F for optimal sleep.
• Use cooling mattress pads, manage bedroom temperature; chilly environments favor deep sleep.
• Morning: natural rise in temp/light signals body to wake and transition into REM-rich periods.

13. “Sleep Divorce” & Relationships (44:35–47:44)

• Sometimes optimizing sleep means separate sleeping spaces (“sleep divorce”), or as rebranded—“sleep alliance.”
• Partners, pets, and kids can disrupt sleep; sometimes separate spaces work better, but open communication is key.
• Use wearables to objectively assess impact of sharing a bed/room.

14. First Steps for Better Sleep (49:07–53:50)

• If struggling, start with testing: at-home sleep studies, comprehensive blood work, continuous glucose monitoring.
• Build core “anchor” habits:
  • Morning sunlight exposure upon waking
  • Keep wake time consistent (±30 min) every day
  • Layer other daytime “wake-promoters” (movement, nutritious breakfast, caffeine if desired)
  • At night, reverse: dim lighting, cooler temps, calming routine
• The process gets easier: "A little bit of prep on the front end … then it’s set and forget.” — Mollie (53:10)

15. The Mission: Sleep as a Skill, Not a Trait (54:26–56:58)

• Mollie’s personal motivation comes from overcoming her own struggles and family history of mental health challenges.
• Aim: Educate people that sleep is not luck or genetics—it’s a skill you can develop with the right approach.
• “Sleep as a skill” platform offers resources, courses, and personal coaching (www.sleepisaskill.com).

16. Final Thoughts: Sleep Is Dynamic, Not Destiny (56:58–58:50)

• Everyone can improve their sleep; bad sleep today does not define you.
• Sleep is a dynamic system that changes with life context—let it serve as a helpful signal, not a source of anxiety.

Memorable Quotes with Timestamps

• "Sleep is a skill and that it's not just some people are good at it and some people stink at it. All of us can kind of learn more." — Mollie (55:57)
• "If sleep reflects your life, maybe fixing your sleep means finally fixing you." — Matt King (00:38)
• "You're looking to abstain from a lot of novelty in around 90 minutes or so before bed.” — Mollie (12:55)
• "What gets measured gets managed.” — Mollie (24:01)
• "Can you just say you used to fall asleep. You no longer fall asleep with the TV on." — Matt King (48:41)
• "Try it all. Just not the tinfoil hack." — Matt King (58:26)
• "Sleep is dynamic... it's a beautiful alert system when things are not working in the body and [the] nervous system is asking for some shifts or changes to be made." — Mollie (57:34)

Highlighted Timestamps for Key Segments

• Sleep as a life indicator: 00:00–00:43
• Digital devices’ impact: 00:53–02:21
• Optimizing light at night: 02:41–05:08
• Temperature and meal timing: 05:08–11:00
• “Mind After Midnight” research: 11:25–12:23
• Supplements & bloodwork discussion: 26:57–34:35
• Sleep duration and consistency: 34:35–41:17
• Sleep divorce vs. sleep alliance: 44:53–47:44
• First steps for better sleep: 49:07–53:50
• Closing thoughts on sleep as skill: 54:26–58:50

Useful Resources & References

• SleepIsASkill.com: Free resources, podcasts, courses and one-on-one support
• Oura Ring/Whoop/Biostrap: Wearable trackers for sleep auditing
• My Circadian App: Tracks local sunlight patterns for circadian alignment
• Timeshifter App: Jet lag toolkit with timing for melatonin/caffeine
• Book: “Sharing the Covers” by Dr. Wendy Troxel (Sleep Alliance concept)
• Book: “The Power of the Downstate” (HRV and winding down science)

Closing Message

Mollie Eastman and Matt King emphasize that sleep isn’t a luxury or a one-size-fits-all formula—but a dynamic, adaptable skill tied deeply to lifestyle choices, environment, and mindset. By experimenting, measuring, and personalizing routines (without blindly following the latest “sleep hacks” or supplements), anyone can move toward true rest, recovery, and even joy around sleep.

Find out more at Sleep Is A Skill.