042: Terrence Ogden | Why Avoiding Rock Bottom Is More Dangerous Than Hitting It | The Matt King Show

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Matt King Show (GoBundance)

Episode 042: Terrence Ogden | Why Avoiding Rock Bottom Is More Dangerous Than Hitting It
Date: January 13, 2026
Host: Matt King
Guest: Terrence Ogden

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Episode Overview

This profoundly honest episode explores the personal journey of Terrence Ogden—from the depths of addiction, homelessness, and incarceration to building physical and mental resilience through extreme endurance events. The conversation centers on the idea that truly hitting “rock bottom” is less dangerous than never confronting your pain, and highlights the incredible transformation that can occur when one stops avoiding discomfort and starts seeking support. Terrence shares his story of survival, perseverance, and the creation of Project Grit, a community built around facing hard things together.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Terrence’s Origin Story and Addiction Journey

• Early Childhood Influences (02:17–04:00):

  • Grew up in Austin in the late ’70s, started experimenting with drugs and alcohol around age 9.
  • Family environment normalized partying and substance use. Terrence cites both peer influence and a desire for attention (especially being the “black sheep” in contrast to his overachieving brother) as motivators.

  Quote:
  “Negative attention is attention too... by going and doing all this stuff, getting in trouble and kind of having the mentality of screw everybody and screw everything, that, you know, I got that attention that maybe subconsciously I needed.” — Terrence (03:39)

• Path of Addiction and Multiple Bottoms (06:41–12:06):

  • Addiction led to numerous low points, including jail and severe physical deterioration.
  • Describes “rock bottom” as weighing 135 lbs, suffering extreme withdrawal in jail, seeing himself as “walking death,” and yet continuing to use until his final bottom.

  Memorable Story:

  • Terrence’s final night using: squatting in an abandoned house, then stealing a tire so a friend could drive him to detox.
    “If this doesn’t happen, nothing’s going to change.” (12:13)

• Reflection on Recovery:

  • Emphasizes that the option of getting clean was a narrow escape; had he not stolen the tire and reached detox, he truly believes he would be “dead or in prison.” (12:53)

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2. The Role of Brotherhood, Mentorship, and Community

• Meeting Kenny (13:26–19:34):

  • Post-detox, Terrence was aimless until he met Kenny—a man “just as bad as I was or worse at one point,” who became his mentor and best friend.
  • Kenny introduced him to the structure of fitness, helping others, and the brotherhood Terrence longed for.

  Quote:
  “He kind of showed me a new way to live... Started with physical fitness. Then we’d go help other people, box, grill steaks, talk about life... That interaction was the brotherhood that I was missing.” — Terrence (15:47)

• Kenny’s Wisdom:

  • The core lesson Kenny imparted:
    “The things in life that you’re avoiding are the things you need to go head on, the things you need to address.” (17:35)
  • Kenny’s death from cancer motivated Terrence to take on challenges he’d previously avoided, like running ultra-marathons. (19:05)

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3. Transformation Through Hardship: The Birth of Project Grit

• The 75-Mile Ruck & The Immortal 32 (21:34–32:11):

  • The first 75-mile “ruck” (long-distance hike with a weighted pack) started as a near-random dare between friends.
  • The route paid homage to the “Immortal 32,” a group of Texans who marched to the Alamo knowing they might die—symbolizing courage in the face of dire odds.
  • They encountered incredible “coincidences”: locals recognizing their effort, meeting descendants of historical figures, and walking the same timeline as the original march (“We arrived at the Alamo on the anniversary of the Immortal 32’s arrival, unintentionally.” — 24:24).

  Memorable Moment:

  • At the lowest moment, when Terrence’s friend Keith wanted to quit at “the soul crusher” (mile 42), Terrence remembered Kenny’s support and refused to leave Keith behind: “This isn’t about doing something stupidly hard. This is about one man helping another man when he’s in his lowest spot... That was the day Project Grit was formed.” (31:04)

• Lessons From Adversity:

  • Completing the ruck taught Terrence the value of community:
    “It’s not about me. It’s about we. We need each other... you got to be there for other people.” (32:45)

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4. Pushing Boundaries: The 1,000-Mile Ruck Across Texas

• Genesis of the Challenge (34:01–35:55):

  • Craving another hard challenge, Terrence plotted a 1,000-mile unsupported ruck from the Gulf of Mexico to Mount Cristo Rey, traversing varied terrain and climates.
  • Spent months planning food caches, resupply points, and contingencies, opting for minimalism and self-sufficiency.

• Preparation and Suffering (39:54–44:25):

  • Suffering started on day one: “Every section had its own amount of sucks. There was never a, ‘this is awesome’ feeling, till the end.”
  • Shed material luxuries along the way, realizing that focus on simple needs and mental fortitude mattered most.

  Quote:
  “So much stuff we take for granted and think we need in life, we really don’t. It boils down to the simple things.” (42:03)

• Endurance and Mindset (46:33–51:56):

  • The solution to physical and mental lows: discipline, focusing on progress and positive memories rather than pain.
  • Deep loneliness and pain were ever-present; Terrence describes one moment as a spiritual breakthrough:
    “Something spoke to me... ‘I’ve given you every tool you need to accomplish what you need in life. The tools are there. Use your resourcefulness. Get the job done.’” (59:34)

• Completion and Impact (52:04–54:15):

  • Finished the ruck on schedule; greeted by family and friends: “It was surreal. Sense of accomplishment—and seeing people inspired by that journey just inspired me tenfold... It was full circle.”
    “You can do hard things.” (54:15)

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5. Practical Takeaways and Philosophical Insights

• Discipline Over Motivation:

  • “There was never one morning I woke up excited about what I needed to do. It boiled down to discipline.” (58:18)

• Pain That Builds vs. Pain That Breaks:

  • Terrence distinguishes between pain as a teacher vs. pain as a destroyer—the difference lies in focus and mindset. (58:18–59:10)

  Quote: “Pain that breaks you is equally important... The pain that builds us shows us we’re built for more than we think... The only difference is where we put our focus. It’s the same pain.” (59:10)

• On Asking For Help:

  • “The hardest thing for me was to ask another man for help... Don’t be afraid to ask for help, because that’s when everything changed for me. Through helping others, I found my purpose.” (62:18)

• Small Steps & Community:

  • “Don’t look at the whole elephant. Break it down into bite-sized elements... It all started for me with asking someone else for help.” (63:46)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On What You Carry
  “Most people fill their bags full of insecurities and we carry more than we think we need... I started picking luxuries to part with. It’s about necessities over wants.” — Terrence (41:02)

• The Role of Suffering
  “We live in a world today where we try to avoid those things. But I think by attacking those things head on... if I feel good all the time, I’ll take for granted what feeling good is. Those low things are there for a purpose.” (57:42)

• Spiritual Realization on the Road
  “I’m not really the crying type, but, dude, I just started crying on that road... I felt an inner peace I hadn’t felt in a long time. It was a magical moment.” (60:45)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00–06:41] — Terrence’s early life, first addiction experiences, seeking attention
• [06:41–12:06] — Multiple “bottoms” and the realities of getting clean
• [13:26–19:34] — The transformative friendship with Kenny
• [21:34–32:11] — Creating and completing the first Immortal 32/Project Grit Ruck
• [34:01–41:57] — Planning and beginning the 1,000-mile Texas ruck
• [42:03–54:15] — Lessons from minimalism, coping with hardship, and finishing the journey
• [54:23–62:18] — Enduring discipline, role of pain, advice for people at rock bottom
• [62:18–64:55] — Final reflections, community, and closing thoughts

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Resources and Where to Find Terrence

• Website: officialprojectgrit.com
  For event sign-ups, blog, newsletter, and more
• Instagram: @officialprojectgrit
  For daily updates, inspiration, and stories
• Upcoming Book: Manuscript soon to be published, chronicling the journey from addiction to Project Grit

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Final Advice from Terrence (62:18)

“Don’t be afraid to ask for help, because that’s when everything changed for me. Through helping other people, I found my purpose and I found that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And the other bit of advice: just don’t freaking quit... it all starts with asking someone else for help.”

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Closing

This episode is a deep dive into the power of camaraderie, endurance, discipline, and vulnerability. Terrence Ogden’s story is both a raw confession and a powerful call to action: don’t avoid your rock bottom—embrace it, ask for help, and find meaning in pushing beyond what you think is possible. If you or someone you know is struggling, heed Terrence’s words: take the next small step, reach out, and don’t quit.

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For more inspiration and resources, join the Project Grit community or sign up for the next ruck challenge at officialprojectgrit.com.

Transcript

[A]

Every man is fighting a war that you can't see. You add addiction to the fire and your options start to disappear.

[B]

The path you're going on really only ends in three different ways, you know, death, being locked up, or getting clean.

[A]

But before he could get clean, Terrence had to come face to face with his demons.

[B]

And I remember being in the infirmary and I walked by a mirror and they were taking me to weigh me and I was like, holy shit, dude, I look like a skeleton. And I was down to 135 pounds when they weighed me.

[A]

His next choice did not come with a plan. It came with an idea and a willingness to suffer.

[B]

I called a buddy of mine, Keith Busby, and I was like, hey, I got this great idea. Let's do a 75 mile ruck. And he's like, dude, you're out of your mind, dude. That's stupid. When are we doing it?

[A]

That was the moment everything changed.

[B]

He just looked up and he said, I'm done, you know, I can't go on. And when I looked down on him, I saw myself. I saw myself when I was ready to give up on life. We can stand, stand up together. I'm not going to ditch you, and we're going to finish this thing together. This isn't about doing something stupidly hard. This is about one man helping another man when he's in his lowest spot. And we got up and we walked. And that was the day Project Grit was formed. That was the moment.

[A]

This is Terrence Ogden. I'm going to ask you a really hard question to start because I really want to go deep. I think this is going to be really fun. So finish this sentence. The day I decided to get clean, I knew I would blank again.

[B]

Well, the funny thing, when I decided to get clean, I kind of just wanted to get my life back, you know, or I really didn't have a life, but I wanted to be able to live in my skin. And I wasn't able to do that without chasing a high or whatever it was, you know, And I think that was probably the biggest thing I wanted. I didn't really know who I was. I knew I. Who I had become, but I wanted to be able to live in my skin and. And not hate myself.

[A]

First time you got high, what. What led you to do that? Was it peer pressure? Was it escaping something at home?

[B]

So the first time I got high, I mean, it was at a. It was at a very young age. I was born and raised in Austin, and I was born in 71 so that would have been the late 70s. I was probably about nine years old and my dad liked to party. And Austin at that time was full of a bunch of redneck hippies and my dad was very much that. So there was always alcohol, there was always weed laying around and me and the other kids would just get that and go smoke or drink or whatever. So I, I don't know if it was. I was wanting to chase something. I don't know if it was more. I just wanted to fit in. But we saw that that's what the grown ups do, so. And they seem to be having fun partying. So that's what. We just followed that, that path.

[A]

And then you just kind of stayed on that path.

[B]

Pretty much stayed on that path. And I was, I was always the type to. And I think that a lot of it was. I was uncomfortable in my own skin that I would always do the crazy thing. I always wanted to stand out to a certain de. I felt that I could fit in better if I did those crazy things. Willing to do things that normal people wouldn't do.

[A]

Was it a way to get attention from maybe your dad or parents and acceptance from them or was it mostly just from your peers?

[B]

Both. I think that a lot of this, like growing up, I had an older brother that did everything right. And I felt that maybe to a certain degree I didn't get the attention that I wanted. And I found at an early age that, well, negative attention is attention too. And so by going and doing all this stuff, getting in trouble and kind of having the, the mentality of screw everybody and screw everything that, you know, I got that attention that maybe like subconsciously that I, That I needed.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Because like to your point, negative attention is attention.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, if you watch kids throw a temper tantrum when you watch the parent in target yelling at them to stop, stop, stop, you're actually giving them exactly what they want, which is attention.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so you were just, you were just seeking some, some sort of attention. Did you, did you build up resentment towards that older brother or have you guys always been pretty cool and pretty tight?

[B]

Both. You know, we definitely have that competitive edge, you know, amongst each other to a certain degree. I always wanted to fit in and hang with the older kids. And so. And my brother knew that, so he'd have me do stupid things like, hey, climb up in that tree and jump up and down on those br branches, see if they can. We can build a tree for it. And if you do that, we'll let you Be hang out in the tree for it, and he'd know they're rotten branches, and he'd watch me fall out of the tree or jump in those bushes, and they're like a big trampoline. I'd jump in the bushes and it tear me up. So a lot of it was. I was. I wanted. I wanted to be with my brother and do those things with my brother, and, you know, it didn't always go the way I wanted to.

[A]

What's your relationship like with him now?

[B]

My relationship, it's good. We're. We're a lot alike in a lot of ways, but we're completely not alike in a lot of ways. Whenever we have conversations, they're always solid and, you know, our similarities shine in those circumstances, and we know certain things not to talk about amongst each other, and we don't, you know, and it. I would say it's an overall good experience with my brother. He lives up in Colorado, so I don't see him that often, but we probably talk maybe four or five times a year.

[A]

Nice. Nice. And have you ever talked about the past?

[B]

Not much. You know, I mean, I. I kind of let, like, let bygones be bygones, you know, And I learned that, like, any resentments I did have, you know, letting those things go, because that just destroys the relationships I could have.

[A]

So when you look back at. At you using, what is the version of you or the first picture that comes to your mind when you think.

[B]

About that of me? The. The bottoms, you know, I mean, I don't. There was good times, for sure, but I. I, like a lot of the real low bottoms are things that really stand out to me. And it's like I look back and the person I am today and the person I was in, it was almost like a bad movie I experienced, you know, and it's like, I can't believe I was that person and did the things that I did. So.

[A]

So if you think that version of you at the bottom saw the version of you rocking a thousand miles across Texas, what do you think that version at the bottom would say to the man you are today?

[B]

Good question. You're crazy. That. But at the same time, you know, knowing my past, that it's fitting, you know, but that person would say, hey, I don't. That's a great question, man. I've never really pondered on that. I think that. That that person was such a stark difference of who I am today that they wouldn't even like each other nor hang out with each other. So I don't know. You know, I think it's more along the lines of it's stupid things, and you're used to doing crazy, stupid things. So he would have probably commended it, you know, but at the same time, like, I'd never do that.

[A]

Yeah. And then what would the version of you Thousand Mile Rock across Texas, tell that version of you at the bottom?

[B]

Don't ever quit. That you're capable to do more than you're. You believe you can, and that the path you're going on really only ends in three different ways. You know, death, being locked up, or getting clean. And luckily, I was able to get clean and sober.

[A]

Yeah, you hit two of those three, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You got locked up clean. You're not dead yet. Tell me about the bottom. What was the bottom like? I mean, obviously it included some jail time, but walk me through that. What was the experience like?

[B]

So I hit multiple bottoms, and the one that really stands out to me the most was I had a bunch of dope, and we got pulled over. Heroin. And I swallowed it, and I threw some of it into a Slurpee, and I set it in the console of the car. I was riding in the passenger seat. They found the dope in the Slurpee, and they were pinning it on me. And I had ate a lot of heroin. And when they. I was. My mindset was, well, they can't prove that that dope in that Slurpee was mine. So I tried. When I got locked up, I tried to just act normal. And I remember the. The dope did absorb into my system. And I remember getting super, super high, surprised it didn't kill me. And then I went and I had a pretty big habit at that time. And then I went through. You know, I went through the city jail, went into county and everything, and I got really sick. And I sit today at about 195, 200 pounds. That's my typical weight. I was throwing up and diarrhea on myself. The whole, like, kicking in the jail, and it's like. It was a tough spot. Eventually, they sent me to the infirmary, and I hadn't seen myself in a few weeks. And I remember being in the infirmary, and I walked by a mirror, and they were taking me to weigh me, and I was like, holy shit, dude. I looked like a skeleton. And I was down to 135 pounds when they weighed me. I had lost 60 pounds kicking dope. And I remember seeing myself, and I was like, dude, you're walking death. And that bottom really stuck out to Me, I ended up beating those charges and getting out. And first thing I did was, I gotta go get my stuff from this house that was a dope house. And the first thing I did was big old shot of dope. But there was multiple bottoms. That was probably my worst, like, physical bottom, the bottom that I last had. When I eventually did get clean and sober, I was. Knew that, that I. I was going nowhere. One of those three options was going to show up. And I wanted to get clean enough to get my feet back on the ground and get back after it like a normal life, so to speak. And I started calling detoxes, trying to get into a detox. And they kept saying, oh, call us tomorrow, call us tomorrow, call us tomorrow. And finally one day they're like, show up tomorrow, 8am and I was like, okay, sweet. And I went and scored that night. And we were. I was. I was squatting in an abandoned house. And that was the last night I got high. That was. That would have been March 6, 2002. That next morning, I woke up and I had a buddy that was going to drive me to the detox. We got out to his truck. It had a flat tire. He's like, dude, I don't have a spare. And I'm like. And I was at that point where I was like, if, if this doesn't happen, nothing's going to change. And so I found a truck that was like his, and he had a jack. I went and jacked up the tire, threw a cinder block underneath it, stole the tire off the truck that was like his, put it on his truck, and he drove me to rehab and I went to detox. And that was like my last bottom.

[A]

That was the. That was the end.

[B]

That was the end. So that was the last time I got high. Yeah, I hit other types of bottoms throughout my life, and I think we always will.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But that was the last. That was the last time before I started getting clean and sober.

[A]

So you see this, this skeleton of a man in the prison or in jail, in the infirmary, and you go right, you go right back, you go right back to using. And then it was. It wasn't until you finally made the decision, like, this is it. And even, like the friends around you probably didn't care if you got help or probably didn't want you to get help because you were cool when you were with them doing, using. So you found a tire, stole a tire or borrowed a tire or exchanged tires, I guess is a better way to say it, you exchanged a tire. So that you could get yourself clean.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Looking back on that, where do you think you'd be had you not stolen that tire?

[B]

Dead or in prison? 100%. There's no question about it. You know, the path I was on was going nowhere. And I was 31 years old and I was just like, you know, there's. There's got to be more to this. And if it doesn't change that, that I know, I know what the next step was.

[A]

Yeah, I think what, what you also alluded to is like, there's always going to be a bottom for you. There will never be a bottom from a high, but there's always going to. You're always going to be faced with bottoms. And sometimes it's about who we're surrounded by that help us get through those bot. You met this guy named Kenny?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When did you meet this guy? Where did you meet this guy?

[B]

So after detox, I went to a rehab. And the mentality at the rehab was a bunch of guys that were just. They acted like they were all big time gangsters or something. You're so badass. Why are you here? And it was. It wasn't the mentality I wanted to be around. So I was like, screw this, I'm out of here. And the counselor's like, no, don't leave. You're going to go get high. I said, well, if I want to go get high, I know where to go get high. If I want to get clean and sober, I know where to go to clean sober, and left. And it was probably about a 2 mile hike to the main road. And all I had at that time was a backpack with a bunch of bad habits. Got to that road. I started hitchhiking to get back into town. I didn't know where I was going. A girl picks me up, she's got a cooler in the back with a bunch of beer, and she's like, hey, I'll give you a ride. And then probably five minutes into the conversation, she asked if I knew her score. I was like, yeah, I know her score. And so my mind scheme, I don't have any money. I'm like, all right, I'm going to rip this chick off. And so I start driving her to where the dope house was. And I remember it was hot, the windows were down, and we were stuck in traffic. And that stereotypical angel and devil showed up on each side. And one's like, yeah, go do all this. Another one's like, you got to get out of here. And we were sitting in traffic. And I just opened the car door and grabbed my bag, and I got out. And she said, where are you going? I don't even know if I said anything to her. Just started walking. And I ended up. There was a. A club close to that, and I was like, all right, I'm just gonna go in here and try to figure it out. And this guy showed up, and he had a presence about him. You know, he was. He's covered in prison tattoos. He had try me tattooed across his neck. And I saw. At first, I kind of like, this dude's a joke. And then I heard him talk, and I was like, you know, I can relate to a lot of this. And I started to see that something. This dude's different. You know, he was just as bad as I was or worse at one point, and something's changed in his life. And he introduced himself to me, and then he asked me to come back. And that was something nobody ever had asked me in a long time. Nobody really wanted me to be around. And so I came back. And then when I came back, he was like, hey, you should come by my house. And, you know, and we started. I started going over to his house, and we started boxing, and then we started lifting weights. And then, you know, and he. He kind of showed me a new way to live. And it started with doing physical fitness. And then we. You know, from that, I started to wanting to eat right. I wanted to, you know, start changing some of my habits. And we would go and help other people, and we would. We would box. We'd beat the snot out of each other, and then throw some steaks on the grill and talk about life, and then we would carry that out to other people. And it was like that interaction with him was like. I felt the brotherhood that I was missing, and I knew that this was my people. And that's where it started with him.

[A]

Do you still stay in contact with him?

[B]

So, Kenny, we had, I'd say, probably 10 years together, and he was my running buddy. You know, he was the best man in my wedding. You know, he watched my kids born. And he called me up one day, and he was like, hey. And he was. He acted like it was no big deal because I got. I got cancer, and I'm like, what? He's like, I have a esophageal cancer. And I didn't know what that meant. It's pretty much a death sentence. And. And he. We. We talked about it, and we worked through it all, and he's like, you know, Whatever it does, I'm not going to stop what I'm doing. And he ended up passing away probably about a year after that. And so, yeah, I wish I could talk to him still, but, yeah, I do in ways. But not. Not face to face.

[A]

Not text.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What did he say to you that sticks in your head still to this day? Is there, like, one line, one sentence?

[B]

The things in life that you're avoiding are the things that you need to go head on, the things that you need to address. And when he passed, I was in Rocky Mountain national park and down where we were camping. I didn't get reception. I went to the top of that mountain, and I got the message that he had passed. And I remember I didn't know really how to react to it. I just got out of the truck, and it was July 4th, and I just started running, and it started snowing. And then I came up over a ridge and there was a herd of elk. They took off running. And it was like this really spiritual moment. And. One of the things that I always avoided and always hated was running. So I was like, all right, this is it, dude. I'm gonna start running until I find out what it is about running. And so I instantly signed up for 50k. I've. I've never ran a 5k, you know, so signed up for that 50k. And then it kicked my butt and went on to do every level of running. And so running was the first thing that got me doing something that is not within my comfort zone. And that was the thing that he was always big on. Get outside your comfort zone, do the thing that you're avoiding in life, and meet those things head on. So that would be the one thing that. There's so many different things, so. But that would have been probably the biggest thing that I took with me.

[A]

And is there anything you didn't get to say to him that you wish you would have or wish you could have?

[B]

Man, I wish I could have been there for him at the end, but I knew that. I'm a firm believer there's not coincidences in life. And I was exactly where I was supposed to be when. When in the situation, when that time did come. But, yeah, I wish I could have just. I mean, I know he knew what he meant to me, but I wish I could have, like, probably just had that verbally with him one more time. Yeah.

[A]

So at that moment when you meet Kenny, you'd kind of done your first ruck, right? That two miles out of the facility. This is kind of your first ruck.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You find. You find this, this clinic or this AA group and you. You see this guy Kenny, and. And there's. There's one side of you that's like, oh, this is just another guy. And then there's another side of you. Like the. The deep intuition in you said, listen to this guy, talk to this guy, Hang to this guy. Like, you probably didn't really trust yourself at that moment in your life. What made you listen to your intuition to talk to him?

[B]

There was just something that I. The way he controlled the room, the way that he presented himself, that I knew that. That it was opposite of everything that I wanted and wanted to do, you know, And I didn't want to talk to him, you know, but he came to me and I knew that this could potentially be my way out of the situation that I was in, because whatever he's gone through is the same stuff that I've gone through. And he made it to the other side and, okay, how'd you do that?

[A]

You know, so there's just something in you that saw light.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

That saw opportunity, that saw hope. Had there been moments in your life where you heard or saw something similar, but you chose to ignore it?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I probably did have some type of guidance through my life. Like, my grandfather came when I didn't have my dad around that much, and he kind of took on that role as a mentor, as he was my rock and he would. I did a lot of growing up on his ranch. He had a cattle ranch down in south Texas. And a lot of the stuff he instilled in me, he taught me how to be a man and all of those things, you know, and so a lot of the information that he gave me is stuff that carried me through a lot of the hardships I had in life. But that was probably my biggest mentor of my early childhood.

[A]

Yeah. So his grandfather and then Kenny were kind of your two rocks in your life. And then you go on this crazy hike, wanting to quit at mile 42. Tell me about this journey. You know, what got you signed up for that? And then why did you want to quit?

[B]

Okay, so you're talking about the immortal 32 Rock and what happened out on the immortal Kenny, he had passed by that point. And I, being an eighth generation Texan, I was like, I always wanted to, like, do something hard for Texas Independence Day. And me and my son, we went to Luling to City Market to get some barbecue. And then he was like, hey, let's go to Gonzalez and I was like, all right, I'll go show them the come and take it cannon we drove to there. And I was like, hey, I'm gonna see what they do for Texas Independence Day here. Spoke with the curator there at the little museum. He's like, we don't do anything for Texas Independence Day. Our big deal is October 2nd, which was the first shots at the Texas revolution. And I'm looking around the museum and I see all this stuff, the Immortal 32. And I'm like, who the hell are the Immortal 32? So I asked the guy and he's like, during the Texas revolution, Travis was at the Alamo with 174 Texans. They were surrounded by 5,000 Mexican soldiers. He sent out a call for reinforcements. The Gonzalez ranging company, which was the law of that area, intercepted that letter. And they took it to their leader, George Kimball, and they're like, hey, what do we do? And he said, there's no question. We go to the Alamo, gather up as many men as we can, and let's go there. And they knew that they were going to most likely die, but they went anyways. And I felt at that moment that this big disservice to those people, they should be. Everybody should know who they are. So I was like, okay, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna. I'm gonna go from here to the Alamo. And that ruck, it starts at 2am in that first year, I called a buddy of mine, Keith Busby, and I was like, hey, I got this great idea. Let's do a 75 mile ruck. And he's like, dude, you're out of your mind, dude, that's stupid. When are we doing it? And I knew he was dumb enough or crazy enough to do it with me. And so we did it. And we weren't playing. We didn't train for it. We weren't prepared for it. We were just two dumb guys going out to do something hard. And we got dropped off in Gonzalez. We didn't have a ride and took off in the morning. And the first 32 miles of it, it's a beautiful country road. And all this stuff started happening that was just too weird to be coincidental. And I knew I was meant to be doing this.

[A]

And like, what? Give me an example.

[B]

So we started early in the morning and we started down the road. We didn't tell anybody what we were. I mean, we told our loved ones, of course, but. But not like publicly. Nobody knew about it. And random people started showing up and they're like, what are y' all doing out here? And we're like, were walking to the Alamo. And they were like, oh, are you following the path of the Immortal 32? And we're like, yeah. And they're like, oh, thank you so much. You know, because all those people in that area, they know the Immortal 32, and a lot of them is their ancestors. We got to a small town called Belmont, and I get a call from the the news, and they're like, we want to interview you. And we're like, okay, cool. And they're like, you know when y' all are gonna arrive at the Alamo? And I was like, yeah, we should be there on March 1st. And they said, oh, wow, that's pretty cool, because that's when the Immortal 32 arrived at the Alamo. We didn't pick that by any means. It's purely coincidental. And we're gonna have some reenactors there. That'd be cool if you could walk in with them. They're like, yeah. So we were trying to make that happen. And random people continue to stop and tell us all these stories along the way of like, oh, right here is where this one family lived. Then we got to about mile 25, and we're cruising down the road, and there's this old house up on the hill. Next to it is a little white house. And there's this old man sitting on the porch with a white beard. And he's like, hey, where y' all going? We're going to the Alamo. He's like, come here. I got something to talk to y' all about. So we went over there, and he gave us each a bottle of water. And he's like, see that house up on the hill? That's George Kimball's house. And George Kimball was the leader of the mortal 32. They met right here on that lawn before they went to the Alamo. And I'm just mind blown. That house was built by a guy named Ira Nash who came from Tennessee. His family is who Nashville is named about. His wife was Clementine. He was killed by Comanches. And George Kimball ended up marrying Clementine. And he lived in that house when it all happened. And it, according to that guy, it's the oldest house in Texas still on its original footprint. And he took us on a tour in the house, and there's, like, all the logs. You can see all the little ax marks and everything. And that was just too, too odd to be coincidental. And series of events like that happened throughout the whole thing. And we got to Seguin. And that was the first seed planted into your head. My head is like, this is awesome. I'm beat up and I'm not even halfway through. We leave Seguin right at dusk, and it's probably another five or six miles to get to the front of this road of I tend to. And that first year we did it, it was Covid. And we're. We're like. We had supplies we supplied up somewhat in Seguin. And when we got to i10, there was a store. We knew there was a store. We really didn't know the plan, the route, where the stores were going to be, but we knew there was a store right when we got on I10 and we were out of water, and we didn't have any food. And we get to the store, and we're like, planning on resupplying there. And we approach the store, and it's like, something's a little off. And we get to the front, and it says, closed due to Covid. And we're like, shit, we're out of water. And the next store was, it turned out being like, eight or nine miles down the road. There was a store five miles back. And like, well, what do we do? Do we turn back and go get resupplies where we know we can get resupplies, or we just push forward? And we said, screw it. Let's just push forward. And about three miles into that stretch, which I now call the soul crusher, and which is between mile 40 and 50, we start cruising down the road. And it's nighttime. I'm beat up, and my partner starts falling back, and I'm like, man, this dude's slowing me down. I know how to just hunker down, get in the zone. And I'm getting frustrated, I'm getting pissed off, and I want to just push through. And look back, I see the faint glow of his headlamp, and I'm like, man, he's probably a quarter mile behind me. I'm like, he's a grown man. He can figure this out. I'm just pushing forward. And I was ready to leave him in the dark. Something bigger than myself had me turn around, and I turned around and started walking back towards him. And the whole way up to him, I was frustrated and angry. And when I got to him, he was on the ground, Very fit guy on the ground. And he just looked up and he said, I'm done. You know, I can't go on. And when I Looked down on him. I saw myself. I saw myself when I was ready to give up on life. And I flashed back to Kenny reaching that hand out to me, and I knelt down next to him. I don't know exactly the words I said to him. They weren't my words as far as I'm concerned. And said some stuff to him. And basically the main thing I remember was like, hey, we can stand up together. I'm not going to D you and we're going to finish this thing together. He stood up eventually and we. We continued on. And it was at that moment that I realized, hey, that's. This isn't about going some crazy long mileage. This isn't about doing something stupidly hard. This is about one man helping another man when he's in his lowest spot. And we got up and we walked. And that was the day Project Grit was formed. That was the moment. And we finished that ruck together, side by side the next day. And the next year I was like, hey, if we don't do this again, it's a cool story we tell over a campfire. We did it the next year at mile 30. I rolled my ankle really bad. We got to Seguin. I couldn't stand up on my own. And the table had turned and he helped me out of a low spot we made. We got some tape and taped up my ankle and we finished it together. And then next year we opened it up to the public. And it was just. I've seen countless people that have gone and done that ruck and had life changing moments. And a lot of that happens during that soul crusher stage, you know, so that was the mile 42.

[A]

You got to get through that. Got to get through the soul.

[B]

I've never had anybody. I've had people quit after the soul crusher, but people that make it past that store is called the burrito store, which is a whole nother story in itself. Nobody's ever tapped out after the burrito store.

[A]

Once they get. Once they get past that, they're good. And the store is obviously open.

[B]

Now, that story and the way I got the burrito, because we. When we rolled in to that store, we're like, we're famished, we're starving, we're thirsty, dehydrated. Walk straight into the store, went straight to the cooler. There's some little tweaker kid running the store. It's like 2 or 3 in the morning. I don't know. It's early, early in the morning. And he's thinking we're about to rob the place. Two big.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Dirty guys carrying backpacks show up, Went straight to the cooler, started chugging water, like, don't worry. We're gonna pay for it. And looking for food. And the only thing to eat there was these burritos and the microwavable burritos, and we microwave them. Keith got to his first. I go outside, we're chowing down on. We get about halfway through him, he's like, oh. And I'm like, what? Look at the bottom of your burritos. Solid black mold. We had eaten half of it. You know, it's like. So that store is deemed the moldy burrito store.

[A]

So don't eat burritos.

[B]

Don't eat the burritos.

[A]

You guys didn't get sick?

[B]

No, no. I was worried, but, no, we didn't get sick. Wow.

[A]

That's incredible. So now he's done it with you every year.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

He.

[B]

He keeps saying, I'm doing this every year until you either die or you don't do it anymore. So he's. He's. He's a good dude, and he's. He's one of my people.

[A]

And this year will be what year?

[B]

Year seven.

[A]

Year seven. And if people want to sign up, they can. It's open to the public now.

[B]

It's open to the public. You can go to my website, official project grit.com, and you can sign up there.

[A]

When you were wanting to quit the second year, when you roll your ankle, you're like, hey, I can't go on. What did you realize about yourself or about doing something hard in that moment after completing it, like, looking backwards?

[B]

What did you learn looking back? That it's not about me. It's about we and that we need each other. You know, for a long portion of my life, I was like, man, I don't need anybody. I don't need anything. And it really solidified the fact that, you know, hey, I wouldn't be here today if somebody else didn't reach that handout for me. And that's what this is all about, you know, and that was the big learning thing for me is like, you got to be there for other people.

[A]

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[B]

Do.

[A]

This 75 mile ruck. And then all of a sudden you get an idea just randomly on a Sunday maybe that you want to do a thousand mile ruck. Well, how do, how do we get to that?

[B]

So last November, November 24, I was sitting around, I was like, man, I need a new hard. I need something that I'm not sure I can pull off or not. And I had, they, they came out with, they're working on a route right next, right now, similar to the Appalachian Trail of a route through Texas. And I remember seeing all the information on that and it's a 1500 mile route. And I was like, man, that's pretty cool, I'd like to do that. And then I was like, has anybody ever rucked across the state of Texas? And so I did to my research. I'm not saying it's true, I think it is. But nobody had rucked across the entire state. Plenty of people have ran it, rode their bikes and they typically go from Beaumont to El Paso, which is a 850 mile stretch. And I was like, man, 850 miles is badass. What would be cooler, a thousand miles? So I started figuring out a route and I came up with my route. It starts 17 miles south of Port Arthur and it's where Texas, Louisiana and the Gulf meet. It's a little fishing road. There's a tower down at the end of that road and cut across the state of Texas and I get to Van Horn and head due north to the top of Guadalupe Peak which going from the bottom of Texas, zero elevation to the highest point. And then I started diving more into it. I love research and stuff. And I found there's Mount Christo Rey, which is right on the other side of Texas border where there's a statue of Christ on top. And I was, that's where I'm going to end it, you know. So it goes from zero elevation to the top of Texas, through the desert, across the border to the top of Mount Cristo. Right?

[A]

What is, what does your loved one say when you come up with this idea?

[B]

That's crazy. My, my wife was like, no, don't do it. You know, you're out of your mind. You're a grown man, you have a wife, you have kids, you know you're going to hurt yourself. My son was really concerned that I was going to die out there. And my wife knows that once I get my head wrapped around something, it's gonna happen. And I got the best wife. You know, she's like, you know, she might not support it fully, but she knows it's gonna happen. So she knows that she's gonna get behind it. And that's kind of how it went down.

[A]

And it took how long?

[B]

Five, three or four months. I had been like brewing the plan then I think I told her about it right around New Year's, but she didn't think I was really serious about it. And probably till like March. And then she, she was like, okay, this is happening, isn't it? I was like, oh, it's happening.

[A]

And then when did you start?

[B]

I started on October 2. Which is the significance with that is that was the first shots at the Texas revolution. And that was, that date was picked. And then I was like, what's 40 days from. Because I wanted to do it in 40 days. And there's a lot of references behind the number 40.

[A]

And like, what's one?

[B]

Well, there's a lot of biblical references. And you know, my faith is strong and I believe that, that there's a lot of significances with that. And also 1,000 breaks down really nicely. That's 25 miles a day. And I, and I'm like, I know that's doable, you know, and the, the, the route, it depicted my story going from the bottom, being lifted up and then giving it all to something greater. So that was the beginning of how I figured it all out. And then there was a ton of planning to do it because my idea was to make it as hard and stupid as possible. So I decided to do it solo and self supported, which means there's nobody's following me to bail me out. I mean, if something was to happen, I could make a phone call and it'd be hours before someone got there. But I wanted it to be more of a suffer fest. So I, I chose the hardest way to do it.

[A]

And did you have food plots kind of along the way, like food stops? Plan to pick up new supplies and new gear? Did you go to the store?

[B]

So the route, I broke it down in 25 mile segments, the best I could, where I had it all mapped out. And if there was a store before or after the 25 mile mark, I didn't have a food cache. And I ended up making 16 food caches which all were in the western portion of it. And each food cache had three freeze dried meals and a gallon of water. And I went out two weeks before I did the event and placed all my food caches, marked them all and had a schedule that I knew and I had backups to my backups. So, like, if I lose the phone, I have a written version of where all my food caches were, which were, they were essential, especially in the desert, because there was many spots where it was like four or five days between stores. And you know, if they aren't there, it could shut this whole thing down.

[A]

See, I mean, like, I wouldn't even think to have a backup for the backup. Like, I'd be like, I got my phone, I'm good. Like, it never would cross my mind that, like, hey, if the phone dies or is broken or is lost, how the hell am I going to find these food things? So you have these food plots, like food caches planned out in your route. You have roughly the time you're going to kind of get there. But it wasn't just this beautiful walk in the park, right, like you set out on the, on the mission. Day one's probably good. Everything feels good. Day two is like, okay. And then when did the pain, when did the suffering, when did the quits start chirping in your ear?

[B]

Pretty much day one. Day one, I figured out real quick. I. And one of the things I always preach to people is most people fill their bags full of insecurities and we carry more than we think we need. And I thought I had it pretty dialed in, but I found out real quick that I didn't and I had more than I needed. And so when I got to Port Arthur, I was like, man, I don't want to just toss this gear. It's good gear. So I was like, okay. I made a decision to make a bypass to the post office and mail to my house the stuff that I'm not going to use or need. And it turned out to be a six mile detour. But it pretty much started day one and there was a lot of stuff that there wasn't really a section that was like, oh, this is easy. You know, every section had its own amount of sucks. So there was never really this like, oh, this is awesome feeling throughout the whole thing pretty much until the end, you know, when I got to the top and I ended it, it was an amazing feeling.

[A]

So if most people carry in their pack their insecurities, what would you say you carry in yours?

[B]

So I had cold weather gear. And when I started, I expected it to be cooler than it was, but it was still in 100 degrees for probably the first two weeks. And I'm like, man, I don't need a 30 degree bag. And when I'm sweating like this, there was that, I had a tarp, I ditched the tarp, I ditched my rain gear. And I kind of like told myself, you know, yeah, if it rains, I'm not going to make 40 days suck carrying all this extra crap. I'd rather deal with that one day of suck and figuring it out when it rains on me. And so I just started just like slowly picking luxuries, you know. And it, I, I ended up ditching stuff the whole way through. And it was, it's, it's, it's about necessities over once, you know. And so a lot of my luxuries I just parted with, you know.

[A]

When you got done with it, did you realize you wanted to part with your luxuries in your normal day to day life?

[B]

So when I got done with it, I had a big realization of so much stuff that we take for granted and think we need in life that we really don't need. And it's really, it boils down to the simple things, you know, and a lot of like, I came to the realization like, what's going to keep me alive out here? And when I got home, it's like that hot cup of coffee in the morning is something I cherish. You know, having a cold drink and not just warm or lukewarm. I mean those are small things, you know, Having to be able to have a conversation with somebody face to face or share a meal with somebody were all things that just like, man, I just really embraced today. That I didn't embrace is I embraced them, but not on a totally different.

[A]

Level, totally different way. Yeah. And when you slept, it wasn't like you were enjoying the Ritz Carlton. I mean you popped into some hotels but most nights were under bridges on cardboard in high tall grass.

[B]

So I had obtained a 4 by 6 sheet of plastic I found on the side of the road. And that way it would go is I'd spread that out and I had a camp mat that I cut down to 16 inches by 4ft that basically, you know, I don't need cushion on my feet when I'm sleeping. I need my hips and shoulders and cut weight by cutting that down. I would lay the plastic out and put my mat down and I had my sock bag was my pillow and I got rid of all, pretty much all the clothes except what I needed. I had one pair of pants, one pair of underwear. I had a long sleeve hooded upfront sun shirt and one set of wool long johns and five pairs of socks. And that was my clothing for the whole thing. So pretty much when it got cold at night, I'd put on every stitch of clothing I had and just slept through it. But I would lay out the plastic, lay out my bedroll, and I would empty my bag and I'd stash stuff in the bushes around. Because one of the big fears I had with someone's gonna steal my bag. And if they stole my bag and it was full of all my gear, I lose everything. So I would disperse all my stuff and kind of hide it whenever I'd go to sleep so they couldn't get everything.

[A]

Did you ever forget anything?

[B]

I didn't, man. Which really was surprising. There was a couple times where I had to turn back. Like one of the things, my water bladder. I use a source water bladder and it's a great water bladder. But the mouthpiece is detachable. It has a quick release and it started leaking. So I would take it out and keep it in my pocket. And I was like, I was probably about 550 or something in the desert and went to get it. I'd taken a small break and I went to get a drink and the mouthpiece was gone. I'm like, oh. And so I'm checking my pockets. So I had to backtrack about a half a mile and there was this. There was a. There was a sign on the side of the road. I was like, that was the last time I thought I used it. And luckily I found it. There was a couple little incidences like that where I had to go back and search for things. But surprisingly I didn't lose anything throughout the whole way.

[A]

Except the stuff you decided to ditch.

[B]

Stuff I ditched.

[A]

When did you decide to ditch the stove?

[B]

The stove I ditched. It was on my way to the desert. And I think the last community event we did was in Fredericksburg. And I was like, you know, I need to carry more water. I want a hot meal. But I don't need a hot meal. I have food. Water is going to keep me alive. Food is. I. I can obtain that. So. And a jet boil weighs like 1.9 mile pounds. And so I was like, that's, that's that's two quarts of water right there, you know. So I ditched it at that point and just dealt with cold freeze dried food from then on.

[A]

Yeah. And you were saying you can actually enjoy. Well, not enjoy, but you can have a freeze dried meal without heat.

[B]

It's edible. It's not a great experience at first. It Was like eating cold leftovers. But eventually everything kind of turned into this like mush. And one of the convenience. I would, I would resupply at convenience stores as well. I picked up a bottle of Tabasco and that made it a little bit more palatable, a little bit more enjoyable.

[A]

What, what did you learn about yourself on that thousand mile ruck that the.

[B]

I think the big thing I took away from it is that you can accomplish anything that you get your mindset wrapped around and that. That you always don't need all the luxuries you think you need and how important human companionship really is, you know, because it's like I longed for those conversations and like, I mean I had my phone, I could call people on the phone. But there's a stark difference than this face to face, you know. And I think that that's one of the things this world's lacking is we're so dialed into staring at screens. We have conversations on screens that one on one interaction is, is critical for the well being of the soul, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Did you ever want to quit?

[B]

No, I never, I never wanted to quit and I never thought that I couldn't accomplish it. You know, I know myself pretty well. I know what I'm capable of. The big concern that I had was I bookended it because I like, I don't know if I finished what I was saying. I started on October 2nd, 40 days from October 2nd is Veterans Day. And I really wanted to bookend it with those two dates. I had some serious concerns that I was going to be able to accomplish that goal and get finished by the 11th. And there were some definite moments that I had out there that said, hey, you know, if you're going to do this, you better get after it, you know.

[A]

And you got it done.

[B]

I got it done. There was, there was a serious moment. Van Horn was kind of like to a certain degree, I looked at the whole event. Is everything up to Van Horn is basically preparation for what I was about to go through after Van Horn, which is. It's like 200 and something miles of complete nothing. And there's no stores, there's no. Nothing's out there. It's just straight up desert. You look in any direction, there's not a light. And so I looked at that as being like the crux, one of the crux of the whole thing.

[A]

That was like your soul crusher.

[B]

Yeah, totally. And two days before, well, three days before that I was. It was the middle of the night and my left, I. My feet were Tore up from the beginning. Pretty much right before Houston, I started having some serious damage on my feet. When I got got about two days before Van Horn, I. My left foot, I had an Achilles issue going on that was really bad. And the top of my foot had swollen up and I couldn't bend my foot anymore. And I was, it was probably about midnight or so and I was like, I, I had five more miles to do that day. And I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna make five miles. And I still had 250 plus miles to do. I was like, how am I going to do this? And I found a barbed wire fence, propped my feet up and I said, man, I think it's just inflammation. And prop my feet up for about 30 minutes. I was probably about a pain scale 8 going into that. Seriously contemplating, Put my feet up and rested for about 30 minutes. Got back on it. It dropped down to about a pain scale 6. And I said, okay, this is just inflammation. Nothing's torn in there. And made it through the night. Woke up in the morning and it started to go away. But I was looking at what I had left for mileage and where I was on days and I was like, okay, you're gonna have to put in some serious mileage. I ended up doing a 32 mile day that day. The next day was a 33 miler and then it was about 4pm the day before I had to be in Van Horn. And it was, it was 4pm and I knew I had 20 miles to go. I had 12 miles behind me and it'd take me all day to get to that point. And I was like, dude, this is. If you don't make it to Van Horn tonight, it's going to screw everything up. You're not going to finish on the 12th. So I pushed it. I put a 34 mile day in that day. Got to Van horn at about 3:30 in the morning. And all of those nights I was doing 30 plus mile days. I was only getting about four hours of sleep every night. Got to Van Horn and from Van Horn to the top of Guadalupe Peak was supposed to be a three day, two night deal. And it was on the map. It was 64 miles. I was like, the only way I'm going to pull off the 11th if I turn this into a two day one night. And I did and I got to the foothills of Guadalupe Peak and my ankle was seized up and the foothills just made it horrible. I arrived at the base at the entrance of the park at mile 900, made it to the campgrounds, found a park bench, camped out on the park bench. 7am, woke up and got to the top of Guadalupe Peak. But I put five, you know, ultra distance rucks in in a row with 44 hours of sleep each night, and it kicked my ass.

[A]

Jeez. So you get to the. You get to the end, you're done. What were you feeling at the moment when you're finally done?

[B]

When I finally finished. So there are some, like, serious moments that happened before that that kind of changed my whole mindset. And that story I just told was one of them. But when I got to the end, it was. I was. I was beat to hell. And that was our last community event that kicked off at 3pm and I pulled into the base of Mount Cristo Rey at 2pm and it was the whole way up there. I was in a world of pain. And when I got there, I saw my wife, I saw my kids, a bunch of people had flown out, drove out, you know, my people were there. And it was just this kind of like, amazing euphoric feelings. Like, I could see the top of the mountain. I'm like, that's it. You know? And it was truly amazing. When I started up the hill, the mountain with everybody, it was kind of weird. Like, the pain just all went away. And I. I charged up that mountain and we got to the top and it was. It was surreal. I kept feeling like I was gonna wake up on the side of the road and like, this was all just a dream. I still got 25 miles to knock out today, you know, so it was this surreal moment, but it was a sense of accomplishment. And seeing the people that were inspired by that journey just inspired me tenfold, you know, and it was like. It was full circle.

[A]

What'd your kids think?

[B]

My son. So they. He was like. He was super proud, and he was like, I didn't think you were going to pull it off. And my daughter, it was amazing. She made this beautiful poster board saying, you know, you just rocked a thousand miles. Congratulations with tinsel on it and everything. And being able to hug them because I hadn't seen them for 40 days. Well, I take that back. I saw them in Austin and I saw him in Fredericksburg. But being able to hug them and feel that. That love back and knowing that, I just showed them that you can do hard things, you know, it was magical, man.

[A]

And you didn't really. I mean, you didn't really train for it. You did a little bit of training, but there's really no training you can do to rock a thousand miles for 40 days?

[B]

No. I started out training and then I started coming to the realization, you know, hey, I'm putting some damage on my body. And I know from past endurance events that what really boils down is what's going on beside between your ears and having mindset and the discipline to do the hard thing when you don't want to do it is what it's going to boil down to completing this thing. So I didn't train. I did, but I didn't train. I'd probably say the last month I did zero training. And it was more all the logistical stuff to make this happen. I mean, because it was pretty much just me and my wife. I had a couple, I have another friend that helped me with some logistics stuff. But it was. There's a ton of work that goes. You don't just set out to do a thousand miles solo, unsupported, without having all those things. So those, I think were more important than the training aspect of it all. I've always had the mentality of stay ready, don't get ready. So I knew that, that the physical hardships were going to show up. And just being able to overcome those and push through those is what's going to boil down to.

[A]

What's the tricks when you get in those dark moments? What's the tricks to keep your mind out of your way? To get it out of the way, just focus, focus.

[B]

And a lot of that is like, I know you have this thing called your reticular activating system. And what that is, is your eyeball can take in ten millions and millions of bits of information that your mind can't process. So you're, you're. They work hand in hand. And your reticular activating system funnels and filters out things that it thinks are important. So, and I learned this a long time ago, that if I'm focusing on my pain, my pain is going to grow. If I focus on something else positive, that's going to grow. So those times, those hard times, I have past accomplishments that I've been through that I can focus on. I think of how far I've come in life, I can focus on those things, but there's a lot of that. That's mainly how I get through the dark spots, the low lows, which there was a ton of low lows. There were some high highs, but there's more low lows, which in my mind are critical and essential. And we live in this world today where we try to avoid those things. But I think by attacking those things head on, you know, if I feel good all the time, I'm going to take granted what feeling good is. So those low things are there for a purpose. They make those highs, you know, memorable and something that is important. But it all boils down for me is where my focus is. My focus is my master. If I focus on the negative, it's just going to make the. The negative is going to be there one way or the other. And a lot of times when I do my events, I have somebody else I could go focus on and try to help them. And that's a lot of what Kenny showed me, you know.

[A]

Yeah. So you're in those low lows. Do you have like one or two key moments that you kind of go back to and. And re. Engage the reticular activating system to focus on the positive or you just focus on whatever shows up in that moment.

[B]

It's mainly like what I thought, this too shall pass. And whatever I'm going through, it's not going to last forever. You know, it's. It. There's. There's going to be a. There's going to be another upward moment coming up. Just get through this. Whatever it is, learn from it. What you can think about, you know, past accomplishments, you know, and push forward.

[A]

What's fascinating to me is when I think about pain, there's. There's sort of two different angles to pain. There's a pain that builds us and there's a pain that breaks us.

[B]

Us.

[A]

You've experienced both of those. What would you say from your perspective is the difference between the pain that builds you and the pain that breaks you?

[B]

I think the pain that break you, breaks you is equally as important, like I was just talking about. But the big difference is it boils down to the mindset and developing disciplines in life that can break through those. There was never one morning I woke up and I was excited about going and doing what I needed to do to get done. It boiled down to discipline. And I think that the pain that builds us shows us that we're capable, that we're built for more. We're built for more than we think we're capable of. We're built for more that society says we're capable of. Because I very easily could have just become a statistic by pushing through and focusing on those pains are going to build me up to make a stronger, better version of myself. And. And it's where it goes with me in the head.

[A]

Yeah, it's it's funny because, like, really what I hear you saying is the only difference between the pain that breaks us and the pain that builds us is where we put our focus. It's the same pain. And do we focus on how is this building me, or do we focus on how is this ankle gonna break me? Which. There's got to be a better way to elevate the ankle than a barbed wire fence. Like, I've been around enough barbed wire now with the ranch, like, that is not a pleasant elevator for the ankle.

[B]

No, but it works, you know, and that's the thing is, it's like we need to be resourceful, you know? And it's like there was a moment in the ruck that was what was huge for me. And I left Van Horn, and I was heading into the mountains, and I was beat up. I'd been on i10. I10 is really loud. And now I'm on this small country road. I don't know if it was lack of sleep or what, but this moment hit me that, like, something spoke to me. And I very sure it was God. And I felt like a crazy person. I felt like a crazy person talking about it. But basically this voice inside me said, hey, I've given you every tool you need to accomplish what you need in life. That doesn't mean that there's not going to be pain. That doesn't mean that it's going to be easy. The tools are there. Use the tools. Use your. Your. Your resourcefulness. Get through what you need to get through and. And get the job done. And, you know, that's it.

[A]

Wow. Wow.

[B]

And it was. It was. It was. I'm not really the crying type, but, like, dude, I just started crying on that road. And it was. I can show you the exact spot where that happened. It was beautiful. And I. I felt high at that point. I felt, like, this sense of euphoria. And I felt an inner peace that I hadn't felt in a long time. But it was. It was a magical moment.

[A]

That's amazing. People are listening to this, going like, man, I want to do the ruck to the Alamo, or, I want to follow on this journey, or I want to check out this documentary. There's got to be a book written about this. How do. How do people find you? How do they engage with you? How can they follow along on your story?

[B]

So I actually do have a manuscript written, ready to be edited, that is more so like, how I came from being a drug addict to where project grit in the hard things and my whole Kenny story, that's a book that I'm working on. I have a Website, official project grit.com I have a newsletter, I have blogs on there, I have my events on there. Those are all places the more day to day activities you can find me at on Instagram at Official Project Grit. And that's probably the main ways that you can get a see what I'm all about.

[A]

So last, last piece of advice. Somebody listening to this is, is at rock bottom or has a loved one that's at rock bottom that either they want to quit or they want to quit on the, the person that they can help. What advice would you give those people?

[B]

The hardest thing for me, you know it's like my grandfather pretty much raised me and taught me how to be a man. And a lot of the stuff that he taught me was. I call it that whole John Wayne mentality, you know. And, and that's all I knew. Be tough, don't ask for help. Get out there, get it done. And that's all great information to a certain point. And what the hardest thing for me to do was to ask another man for help. And the, the biggest piece of advice I could give to other men out there especially is don't be afraid to ask for help because that's when everything changed for me. And it was by that I was brought into a community that was all about helping other people. And through helping other people I found my purpose and I found that there is a light at the end of that tunnel. And the other bit of advice, just don't freaking quit, you know. And that's, that's how I accomplished the Thousand miler. That's how we accomplish that 75 miler out there together. And pretty much any endurance event, there is no quit. I'm going to get this done one way or the other. As long as there's not a bone sticking out of my leg, I'm going to push forward. You know. And adopting that mentality, focus in the moment. Don't look at the whole elephant. You got to eat. Break it down into bite sized elements that you can accomplish, you know. And. But it all starts and started with me was asking someone else for help.

[A]

Yeah. And. And you almost didn't even have to ask. Kenny just. Kenny just was there at the right time and came to you.

[B]

Kenny. You know that first year there's a lot of sleep deprivation that happens in that 75 miler. And I could hear Kenny talking to me the whole way. He lives in me, you know. And the things. He taught me me a lot of.

[A]

Hallucinations that happen when you push past that 24, 25 hours of non stop movement and non stop activation.

[B]

Without a doubt.

[A]

Look man, your story is incredible. I feel inspired. I feel obligated now to go try to do that 75 mile ruck with you guys. I'm going to try to make it on my calendar this year. If not, I will definitely be there in 2027. I can't thank you enough for just being here, for being the person you are. I think the world needs more of you. They need to hear more of you. It's easy to get lost in a screen. It's easy to scroll through TikTok and Instagram and find motivation as some fake guy sitting on a fake airplane acting like he's. He's built a beautiful life. But you've built a beautiful life. You've seen the bottom, you've seen the top and you understand that both are always going to be there and you just got to keep persevering forward. So I really appreciate you being here.

[B]

I appreciate the opportunity. Thanks, Sam.