How True Crime Can Reveal God | Matt Walsh & Andrew Klavan Discuss

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Matt Walsh Show - "How True Crime Can Reveal God"

Release Date: May 10, 2025

Hosts: Matt Walsh & Andrew Klavan

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Introduction to Andrew Klavan and His Work

In this engaging episode of The Matt Walsh Show, host Matt Walsh sits down with author Andrew Klavan to delve into the profound connections between true crime, art, and spirituality. Klavan's new book, The Kingdom of Cain: Finding God in the Literature of Darkness, serves as the centerpiece of their discussion, exploring how dark narratives can illuminate deeper truths about faith and existence.

Finding Beauty in a Corrupt World Through Art

Klavan begins by sharing a personal anecdote about how reading Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment at the age of 19 led him to embrace Christianity. He remarks, “[00:43] A: One of the first things in my life that brought me to God when I was 19 years old was reading Crime and Punishment, which is a story about an axe murderer” (Klavan, [00:43]).

The conversation pivots to the essence of beauty in art, even when depicting heinous subjects. Klavan argues that true art finds beauty amidst darkness, citing Shakespeare’s Macbeth as an example: “Art can be about terrible, terrible subjects… and yet at the end of the play, you think, this is a beautiful play” ([03:15] A).

He emphasizes that this ability to perceive beauty in evil reflects a deeper spiritual connection, suggesting that art serves as a bridge to understanding divine truth despite the world's inherent flaws.

Critique of Christian Media and Its Representation of Faith

Walsh and Klavan critically examine contemporary Christian media, highlighting its tendency to present faith in a simplistic or sanitized manner. Klavan criticizes films like God's Not Dead, stating, “[05:20] A: It's just like women watching romantic comedies… ‘God is not Dead’… It has nothing to do with life. If that is your idea of Christianity, when you meet with real life, your faith will collapse” ([05:20] A).

He contrasts this with his approach, which embraces the complexity and darkness of real life as a more authentic reflection of Christian beliefs. Klavan argues that overly optimistic portrayals disconnect believers from the true struggles and moral complexities of existence.

True Crime and Art as a Connection to God

Delving deeper, Klavan explains how studying true crime and its representation in art can reveal divine insights. He discusses how real-life atrocities inspire artistic creations that capture the profound interplay between good and evil. “[07:45] A: Artists writing about murder is an act of creation. And creation, in my mind, is always the telos of love” ([07:45] A).

By analyzing works like Psycho, Silence of the Lambs, and historical true crime cases such as Ed Gein's murders, Klavan illustrates how these narratives expose the underlying spiritual battles within society. He posits that such art allows individuals to confront and find meaning in the darkness, fostering a deeper spiritual awareness.

The Decline of Beauty in Contemporary Culture

The discussion shifts to the perceived decline of beauty in modern culture. Klavan laments, “[12:30] A: I think the arts in America and possibly in the west flatlined because we had squeezed every human thing and every godly thing out of them” ([12:30] A). He attributes this stagnation to the erosion of faith and the deliberate attempt to undermine spiritual truths.

Klavan asserts that beauty is intrinsically linked to truth and divinity, arguing, “[14:00] A: Beauty is connected to God… To stifle beauty is to stifle God. It’s the result of the slow loss of faith” ([14:00] A). He highlights the cultural movements aimed at diminishing the perception of beauty as a way to disconnect humanity from spiritual reality.

Discussion on Modern Westerns and Cultural Reflections

In a lighter yet insightful segment, Klavan and Walsh touch upon the state of Western films. They humorously address a previous episode where Klavan overlooked the film Open Range in his rankings. Klavan clarifies, “[21:03] A: I plead innocence here… I didn’t leave out Open Range. I was given the list and had to comment on it” ([21:03] A), emphasizing the episodic constraints rather than a deliberate omission.

Walsh appreciates Open Range for its exceptional shootout scene, likening it to classics like Lonesome Dove. This exchange underscores the hosts’ shared appreciation for traditional Westerns that encapsulate themes of morality, justice, and human complexity.

The Battle for Beauty and Truth in Modern Society

Returning to the central theme, Klavan and Walsh discuss the broader cultural battle against beauty and truth. Klavan passionately states, “[17:10] A: The attempt to extinguish beauty is a real effort… it is an actual attempt to silence the voice of God” ([17:10] A). He argues that modern society's rejection of beauty and truth is a concerted effort to alienate individuals from spiritual truths, ultimately leading to moral and cultural decay.

Walsh concurs, noting the pervasive influence of destructive ideologies like certain forms of feminism, which he believes undermine traditional values and the inherent beauty of human existence.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode draws to a close, Klavan reiterates the importance of seeking beauty and truth in all forms of art as a pathway to understanding and connecting with the divine. He encourages listeners to engage deeply with complex and challenging works, asserting that true beauty lies in their ability to reflect the profound realities of human existence and spirituality.

Matt Walsh wraps up the conversation by promoting Klavan's book, The Kingdom of Cain: Finding God in the Literature of Darkness, inviting listeners to explore the fusion of faith and art through the lens of true crime and literary masterpieces.

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Notable Quotes:

• “[00:43] A: One of the first things in my life that brought me to God when I was 19 years old was reading Crime and Punishment, which is a story about an axe murderer.”

• “[03:15] A: Art can be about terrible, terrible subjects… and yet at the end of the play, you think, this is a beautiful play.”

• “[05:20] A: It's just like women watching romantic comedies… ‘God is not Dead’… It has nothing to do with life. If that is your idea of Christianity, when you meet with real life, your faith will collapse.”

• “[07:45] A: Artists writing about murder is an act of creation. And creation, in my mind, is always the telos of love.”

• “[12:30] A: I think the arts in America and possibly in the west flatlined because we had squeezed every human thing and every godly thing out of them.”

• “[14:00] A: Beauty is connected to God… To stifle beauty is to stifle God. It’s the result of the slow loss of faith.”

• “[17:10] A: The attempt to extinguish beauty is a real effort… it is an actual attempt to silence the voice of God.”

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This episode offers a compelling exploration of how true crime and dark literature can serve as conduits to deeper spiritual understanding, challenging listeners to reconsider the role of beauty and truth in both art and faith.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Is there beauty? Are there people producing truly beautiful works of art in this horrifically awful world? Andrew Clavin the new book is the Kingdom of Finding God in the Literature of Darkness, which is available right now to go buy on Amazon, wherever you buy books. Drew, I have to admit, I haven't read the book yet because you have not sent me a special signed copy. So what's up with that?

[A]

I'm coming in this week. I'll bring you one. Okay.

[B]

All right.

[A]

I'll find somebody to sign it to.

[B]

Cause I can't spend my own money on it. I don't have time.

[A]

No, obviously I wouldn't expect that of you.

[B]

Yeah, well, I do plan to read it because I'm legitimately very interested and looking just at the description. It says the book's all about finding joy and beauty in the world while still being realistic about the evil found in it. And that resonates with me because I do find, I do struggle with that sometimes. And by sometimes, I mean pretty much all the time. So how do we find. I don't want to give any spoilers away, but how do we find joy and beauty in this horrifically awful world that we live in?

[A]

Yeah, I think this is the thing. I think if you're an actual Christian, if you actually believe in the precepts of Christianity, after a while you, it just comes to you that the world sucks. I mean, I think that's actually in the gospel. The world sucks and it will continue to suck. And everything you do, nothing. At no point in the gospel does Jesus ever say, make the world a better place because he doesn't believe the world can be a better place. He says, give all your money to the poor, but the poor you'll always have with you. You're always going to have trouble in the world. I've overcome my kingdom is not of this world. But at the same time we're told to rejoice Rejoice evermore. I've told you these things so that the joy will be in you. So what I did was I studied famous murders. Real, real crimes that were in their time. They were just huge. And each one of them inspired work of art after work of art. They inspired novels, they inspired poems. At one point, a murderer's hand was mummified and put in a museum. And famous poets wrote about the experience of seeing this murderer's hand. And since art is about finding beauty in life, I mean, art can be about terrible, terrible subjects. Like Macbeth is about murder and betrayal and, you know, killing people to get to the throne. And yet at the end of the play, you think, this is a beautiful play. This play has given me something new and fresh and light. And so by exploring the works of art about these acts of evil, I try to get at what it is that an artist does that makes this evil world beautiful and makes it creative and makes it something that actually expands our sense of joy. Because this is my experience of Christianity. My experience of Christianity is my. My vision of the world has gotten darker and darker, but I have become more serene. And that's. That's a strange paradox. And I try to capture why it is that happens. And. And what. What are the. What are the creative practices that we do in life that are like art? For instance, communion is very much like art. It's taking something solid and real and specific and finding God in it. It's finding God in bread and wine and very normal things. So that's a thing that people do. That is actually a creative thing. Art itself is a creative thing in which we look at life and we suddenly think, like, God. You know, that thing that happened in that play in the Sopranos was incredibly ugly. And yet the Sopranos is a very beautiful experience. Watching the Sopranos is actually an uplifting experience because God is in the Sopranos. And so it's a. Like seeing God in the world as it is instead of as what we now call Christian art does, prettying everything up. I mean, I don't know if you go to these Christian movies, I think if you're taking kids to the movies, they're fine. But if you're an adult and you go and see God's not dead number five. This time he's really not dead. You know, you think like, this is awful. This has nothing to do with life. If that is your idea of Christianity, when you meet with real life, your faith will collapse. And so I kind of explore the way in which reading books like Crime and Punishment by Dostoevsky, watching a movie like Psycho by Alfred Hitchcock actually is a much more clear and uplifting engagement with God than some kind of prettified version of life.

[B]

Yeah, that really is the, I mean, that's always been my, I think that's a lot of people's complaint about so called Christian entertainment. And maybe it's, I don't, to be honest, I don't follow it closely enough. Maybe it's gotten a little better. I think it has gotten a little better. And not to pick on God's not dead, but that is, it's one of the few of those types of films that I did watch. And I remember it's been a while, but one of the things that really bothered me about it, I mean, aside from not all the performance, some of the performances are fine, but from my memory of it, it's like this atheist college professor, I guess, who's an atheist. And then someone presents, I guess one of the students or something presents the arguments to him and he's persuaded by it. And then by the end of it, he, I guess, comes to God. It just felt, I think dealing with someone, dealing with a Christian film that deals with someone who doesn't have faith or loses faith, there's a lot of value in that. But it felt too neat, it felt too clean. It didn't feel like this is what actually happens in life.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's just like women watching romantic comedies. Nothing wrong with sitting back and enjoying a romantic comedy. But if that's what you think love is going to be like, you're going to be sorely disappointed and nobody is going to live up to that experience. It's just not the way the world works in God is not Dead. And I hate to pick on these films because I think they serve a purpose. I think they've collected the audience that attracts talent and that's why they're getting better. But at the same time, at the end of that film, the guy is converted and gets hit by a car and he dies and everybody goes, well, hallelujah. At least he converted before he got hit by a car. And my thought is, could we call his wife first? You know, could we at least be sad that the guy got hit By a car. Could we at least engage in real life? One of the things that brought me to God. One of the first things in my life that brought me to God when I was 19 years old, was reading Crime and Punishment, which is a story about an axe murderer who kills two women for no reason, just because he thinks it can be done. And I remember reading that scene, and I was living in a world, and I was in university. I was at a place where they were teaching us that morality was relatively. And I remember reading that scene and thinking, there is no planet in which this is good. There's no planet. You can be on a planet where everyone's an axe murderer. Everyone thinks this is good. It's still not good. You simply cannot make that argument. That changed my life. I mean, that changed the actual trajectory of my life and turned it toward God. Now, if I walked into a Christian bookstore and I said, have you got that book about the axe murderer who gets rescued by a prostitute? They'd kick you out into the street. And so what I'm trying to make the argument about is God is the God of this world. And. And so if you read art that is honest about this world, even if it's about nightmares, you're going to find God in that work, even if the artist himself is not a believer. And so in exploring books like, exploring stories like Psycho, Silence of the Lambs, books that, you know, like Rope, another Alfred Hitchcock picture, and Crime and Punishment specifically, and some of Nietzsche's philosophy, what you find is that, you know, look, society, there's no question, has been on a trajectory of unbelief. It's been moving more and more in the direction of unbelief. And in that experience, artists who write beautifully about the world as it is have been telling us what the results of that are. You know, one of the murders I study is the murder by a guy named Ed Gein. Do you know this murder? The story? I mean, this is.

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

1950S Wisconsin, the middle of nowhere and 1950s are kind of looked on as the sort of heyday of American life. He was killing women and digging up some dead women and dressing in their bodies, dressing up in their bodies so he could turn himself into a woman. That was the inspiration for first the novel Psycho and then the film Psycho. And it's also the inspiration, if you've seen Silence of the Lambs and all of those films that are inspired by those things, like the slasher movies, all speak into that moment. They speak into that version of Sexuality, where our sexuality is just a body outline. So if I change my body outline, if I change the way I look, I've changed, in fact, my soul. And that's an absurdity, but it actually makes sense if there's no God. It makes perfect sense if all we are is meat. And so I explore in the way these movies not only look at men trying to become women, which is in both Psycho and in Silence of the Lambs, but also the roles of psychiatrists, which hilariously change over time. In Psycho, which is early on in the first introduction of psychiatry to the mass audience, the psychiatrist is the expert. He comes on at the end of the movie and he explains the whole thing. This is what happened in his mind. He was mother. You know, he had a problem with his mother, blah, blah, blah. By the time we get to the movie Halloween, which is kind of based on Psycho, you have a psychiatrist come on and says, I treated this killer. I can't do anything with him. He's evil. It's evil. I have no weapon against evil. So the psychiatrist started to change. By the time you get to Silence of the Lamb, the psychiatrist is the source of the evil. The psychiatrist is Hannibal Lecter. And what makes him evil is that he treats people like meat. He eats them, you know, so he's a complete materialist. And the psychiatric ideal that came out of Freudian materialism has been completely turned around. The artists sort of caught onto the fact that even though therapy itself may not be a bad thing and talking to somebody is not a bad thing, the philosophy that went into psychiatry that was going to replace the priests and the confessional and solve your sins and absolve you of your sins was false. And that that idea is the one that seeped into society and was really kind of defined what our society looks like today. And so artists writing about murder is not the same thing as murder. Artists writing about murder is an act of creation. And creation, in my mind, is always the telos of love. I mean, the reason you have love is because love is creative.

[B]

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[A]

I think it's a great question and I think the reason is that beauty and truth are very deeply connected. As Keith said, beauty is truth, truth, beauty. And what he meant by that is not necessarily that there aren't two things that are beauty and truth. What he meant is that true beauty, not just prettiness, is something that connects you to God. It connects you to the meaning of the and when you look at something that is truly beautiful and I'm not talking, like I said, I'm not talking about something that's cute or pretty like daisies, anything like that. I'm Talking about that thing that really reaches into your soul and grabs you. The reason it grabs you is because you're seeing an order in things. You're seeing a kind of creativity and a creative mind and things that connects you to it. That where that you are not separate than it. You are actually part of that creation. And I think that that is the experience of beauty. The kingdom of Cain ends with, if I may say so, I think it's one of the best 30 pages I ever wrote. It's a walk through a museum to look at famous paintings. And what happens as we get further and further away from God. And it ends with returning to the Pieta, Michelangelo's statue of Mary holding the dead body of Christ. And my question about this is, if you take this moment, which is the saddest moment in human history, it's not just the saddest thing that can happen to anybody. The death of a child, I think that's worth worse than self death. I think that there's no greater sadness than that. But it's also the death of God, you know. And if you look at this beautiful statue of this tragedy, the question that immediately comes to my mind is, if a man can take that tragedy and turn it into something beautiful, what is God making of this world, this world that we're living in now? And I think that, that. I think the reason that beauty has been rejected is because it is the answer to the question, if there's a good God, how can there be so much evil in the world? And the answer is simply, even though we have to accept it on faith, the answer is simply we're living in a design that is beautiful. Even though that beauty includes the ugliness and the evil that we have chosen to do and the evil of a broken world. I think that to stifle beauty is to stifle God. I think to stifle beauty is to stifle the heart of man. And I think to stifle God is to stifle the heart of man. And I think that that has been an absolute result of the slow loss of faith. I think that it's not just that people have lost their connection to God, but they are determined to take it away from you and me as well. And I think the only way you can do that is to destroy beauty. Because the minute you see it, the minute you see beauty, you think like, wait a minute, just a minute. Something is. There's something more here than meets the eye. And especially when you come upon the, you know, one of the Things I write about in the book is coming upon the beauty of clouds from the position of an airplane. And they think like this was here before we could fly up and see it. You know, it was here waiting to become beauty. It wasn't beauty until we could see it and find that connection that we find in the beautiful. And when you see that, you think like she, maybe, you know, we matter. We matter because we bring this creative spark to life by perceiving life. But, but maybe we're not the end of the, of the value chain. Maybe there's some value to us beyond even what we think, even our desires. I think that this is a real thing, Matt. I think the attempt to squelch God, to silence God is a genuine movement. I have been in meetings in Hollywood where somebody will point out that faith based movies make a ton of money. And people will say, yeah, but we don't do that, we're not gonna do that. And you think like, I thought you were all about money. Yeah, but we're not so about money that we'd actually talk about God. That's going too far. We don't wanna go that far. And this is, it's really true. I mean, you go to univers University and you want to read about literature. Almost all literature at some level is about spiritual. The spiritual, it's about evil, it's about God, it's about who we are, what we're doing. You can't find that class in most Ivy League universities anymore because they're determined to bleed it out of the culture. And I think it's a real movement. I think it actually, of course like all these movements, they think they're doing something good and just and beautiful. But I think it is an actual attempt to silence the voice of God and make sure that you don't find him.

[B]

In the book you talk about, you've already mentioned Dostoevsky, Hitchcock, you just mentioned the Pieta, which I think is for my money the most beautiful and impressive work of art perhaps ever produced by mankind. And so when I think in particular about that sculpture, there's a certain kind of sadness that comes with it because I think there's no one capable of producing that. Now in the entire. I don't know if there's anyone in the entire world that could do anything close to that. Is there anyone? Well then maybe that just form of art has died off. Even in the particular modern mediums, film and television. Is there beauty? Are there people producing truly beautiful works of art even in the modern day, in Those mediums.

[A]

I think we're in this kind of amazing moment, the last five years, where art flatlined. And that doesn't mean there were no good works. There are always good artists around. There are always going to be individual good works. But I think that the arts in America and possibly in the west flatlined because we had squeezed every human thing and every godly thing out of them. That can't last. I don't think that that can go on forever. And I think I can feel it starting to change right now. If you go back to the last upsurge of really good work, a lot of it was on television around 2000. There were some really good shows on television that were kind of exciting, kind of a reinvention of the long form storytelling. They were all about bad men. They were all about the Sopranos, the Shield, Breaking Bad, all about rogue men. And I think the reason for that is because when you outlaw masculinity, only outlaws can be masculine. And I think that we have reached a point through feminism. I mean, it's a whole other subject of why we want to extinguish women. But I think we want to extinguish women because of what they represent and what they stand for, what motherhood stands for, what tenderness stands for, what generosity stand for. But because we have tried to eliminate women, men have no role. And so we're trying to reinvent good men in art and good men in life without giving up feminism. And I don't think that can be done. I think feminism needs to go right out the window. I think it's a wholly destructive force. It's not that some of the problems that feminism was called upon to solve didn't exist. Some of those problems did exist. But I think feminism is a destructive force. And I think this attack on the existence of women, the idea that you and I could put on a skirt tomorrow and declare ourselves women and women would just have to accept that. That's an amazing thing. You know, that movie Barbie was a huge hit. And in the middle of Barbie, somebody says, well, men hate women and women hate women. It's one thing we all agree on. Nobody even noticed the line. Nobody even talked about it. I mean, I did, I talked about it, but I didn't read any articles about it. It was just like, oh, yeah, that's true. And I thought, if we live in a society where men and women hate women, we're living in a sick society. Which is actually what I believe we're in. I think we're in a moment of real mental illness, cultural mental illness. I don't think it can last, or at least the culture that does. It can last. So it's a question of whether we're going to rediscover the underlying truth of existence or we're not and we're going to disappear. But I think it's a real thing. I think when you say that the attempt to extinguish beauty, it's a real thing. Yeah. A real effort.

[B]

Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Before I let you go, I did have, and this is a little bit out of left field, sort of related, but not really. But since I have you, I do have a. I have a quick bone to pick with you that I, that I'm just going to throw at you right now because a couple of. We're talking about film, so it is a little bit related. A few days ago you put out a video on your YouTube channel where you're ranking Westerns.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I watched the whole, the whole video and I agreed with many of your rankings. However, the movie Open Range, you didn't even. Was not in your rankings at all. It was unranked. And that to my mind, that, that's the, that's probably my favorite Western of all time. So I'm just waiting. What does he think of Open Range? We'll get the S tier and you didn't even mention it. So what. What's up with that?

[A]

I want to plead innocence here. That on the, when they put out the caption on that video, it said Clavin's list of great Westerns or something like that. It was not. I was given the, the Westerns and had to judge them ad lib as they were coming over. I didn't make the list. The list was called from the Internet. And so they just were pouring them at me and I stopped midway because it was just going for too long. So I didn't leave out Open Range. I didn't leave out, you know, the, the Searchers or anything like that. I mean, it was just. Those were the ones I was given to talk about and I liked Open Range, but I'm surprised that you liked it that much. I thought it was. I thought it was a really good Western and I really liked it and I'd probably give it an A, but I don't think it was one of the great Westerns of all time, was it?

[B]

You know what I, what I liked about it so much is. Well, for one thing, it reminded me. It reminds me a lot of Lonesome Dove, which Which is my. One of my favorite things that's ever. You know, it's great. Favorite movie. Yeah. So it reminds me a lot of that. But also it had. You know, what I love about westerns, I think everyone loves about Westerns is. Is, you know, sometimes you have Westerns that. That will play with the formula a little bit, but I like the formula, which is. And it always. It has to end with a shootout. And I agree with you because you talked about Tombstone and how you didn't. You kind of like. It feels like it trails off at the end. I felt the same way. I watched it actually recently for the first time. I'd never seen it. And, you know, doing the big shootout and then it goes on for 45 minutes. It doesn't. No, you got. The shootout is at the end. And open range, I think, has maybe the greatest shootout and maybe in film history, but at least in Western film history.

[A]

Yeah. No, it's great. Great shootout. The scene where they bury the dog is great. The girl is great. I mean, it's got a lot. And Kevin Costner is always worth watching. I mean, it's like he does. He's one of the few people who still does movies like that and did them for quite some time. And so. But I didn't leave it. I just want to say I didn't leave it out. I was getting hit with this on X, you know, people saying, why did you leave out this? And why did you leave out. I didn't leave out or put in anything. I was given the list and then had to comment on it. That was the thing. That was the way the system worked. So I plead innocent to this, and I, I, you know, I will do penance if I have to, but I think that that's. It's only fair to say that I think we should fire the people who did it and bring and name them publicly and possibly chase them through the street hurling, you know, rotten vegetables at.

[B]

Yeah, well, you. You can tell me off air. You tell me the name of the person off air, and I'll go find them. And you'll.

[A]

Okay, I'll write you. Yeah, I'll send you.

[B]

Okay. Well, Andrew Clavin, the book the Kingdom of Cain, Finding God in the Literature of Darkness, which is available right now, and you should go pick it up. Thanks a lot. Appreciate it.

[A]

Great to see you. Thanks a lot.