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The McShay Show
Coach Prime’s Cowboys Connection, Jayden Daniels Draft Lessons, and Ranking NFL GM Vacancies
01:10:51
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- [00:00]
Todd McShay
It's the McShay show, presented by FanDuel. It's time for the first 12 team playoff and you can bet on all of the action with FanDuel. Just think about all the opportunities we're going to have to bet on the College Football Playoff. We're talking about different conferences, home games for certain teams, the three or four week run that you're going to have to play. There's so much to earn if you're betting with FanDuel this College Football Playoff season. Why we love FanDuel why we there's so many markets like spreads over unders, national championship futures and so much more. This app is safe, secure and easy to use. When you win, you'll get paid instantly. Visit FanDuel.com McShay to download America's number one sportsbook. The Ringer is committed to responsible gambling. Visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and help lines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 and older and present in select states. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com It's a not so well kept secret in television. The talking Coach prime and the Dallas Cowboys. They're ratings grabs and we promise not to be that show. But now we've got Coach prime talking to Jerry Jones about the Cowboys coaching vacancy.
- [01:26]
Mel Kiper Jr.
So could we talk about it?
- [01:28]
Todd McShay
Sure, why not? Then is Jaden Daniels a unicorn? Or can we learn something from the commanders in that quick franchise turnaround? With so many teams looking to turn things around this off season, today's our show provide a blueprint for the right way to build an NFL franchise.
- [01:46]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Thank God we have all the answers right?
- [01:48]
Todd McShay
We always do. We're on to the College Football Playoff National Championship and the NFL Divisional Playoff. Plus 99 days till the NFL Draft. 99 days to the draft, man, you good? I'm good, man. DJ spit us our favorite beats, baby. So here we are, right? I mean it's inevitable and it's beautiful. It is a beautiful thing that of course we have in the off season. The NFL Cowboys struggle all season long. Got to keep them in the headlines. So what happens? Adam Schefter of all people reports that Jerry Jones and Coach prime had a discussion. Then Adam Schefter text Coach prime and Coach prime texts him back, says, yeah, we had a good conversation. Don't know where it's going to go, but it's kind of open. Love it here in Boulder. I mean, all the things you hear Love it here in Boulder, committed to what we're doing. But anytime Jerry picks up the phone and calls me, I'm going to listen. Don't know where it's going to go. Right. Let me give you my quick thoughts on it. Okay. And I want to discuss this back and forth. Jerry Jones is 82 years old. When he was around 52 years old, he parted ways with the best coach that he ever hired, Jimmy Johnson, and won Super Bowls. They did a whole lot of winning. How about them Cowboys? Right. But it drove him crazy that Jerry wasn't the show. Right. This is a family business. Do you watch Landman at all?
- [03:33]
Mel Kiper Jr.
I've not watched it yet.
- [03:34]
Todd McShay
You got to watch it. I love it. I love it. But I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff. I am. You know, Yellowstone, all that same director, best acting job I've seen any NFL person do in a long, long time. And you know why it was a great acting job by Jerry Jones? Because he went on that show and he actually discussed his life. And in that acting bit he did with Jon Hamm and Billy Bob Thornton, it was talking about family and how the thing he's most proud of and the thing that basically he's going to go to his grave with a smile about is the fact that he got his family involved, his children and that his children were part of the Dallas Cowboys. And this is a family thing. Right. That is his number one. You know, it's the most important aspect of what he's done. And I think when he fired Jimmie Johnson, that's when you started to see a shift. The Jones family is the show. And so we're going to bring in head coaches are normally alpha dogs. Right. They're the alphas and they're. And they're alpha pluses. The great ones are out. Bill Belichick, alpha plus. Bill Parcells, alpha plus. You think about all of them. And coaching has changed and yes, there's more communication and you've got to be a players coach to a certain degree with this day and age. But they're still alphas and a lot of times they become the show. Since then, Dallas has not done a whole lot of winning when it counts, but they've had a whole lot of coaches that are alpha minuses or beta pluses. I mean, if we're honest. Right. Like truly, I'm gonna. I'm reading this list.
- [05:11]
Mel Kiper Jr.
I did not.
- [05:12]
Todd McShay
They're all good football people. They're all competent. They're all good football coaches, but they're all nice guys. And they're all guys that, that play the game and are willing to be in that position.
- [05:26]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Right.
- [05:26]
Todd McShay
I mean, there's a lot of money that comes with it, a lot of fame that comes with it, a lot of attention that comes with it. So, yeah, I'll put up with what goes on with Jerry Jones and the Jones family, Chan Gailey, Dave Campo. We'll get to the next coaching hire in a second. Wade Phillips, Jason Garrett, Mike McCarthy, all good coaches. Very good coaches. Some of them, all of them are, are, are able to play the game. The only one that wasn't able to play the game is Bill parcel. Since that's 30 years since he, he fired Jimmy Johnson. 30 years. It's not by accident that he's been hiring these guys, Steve. So when I see and. And the one person I left out was Bill Parcels, and we all know how that ended. It's the only alpha plus guy that he brought in. And it was a, it was a massive headache. And it, and the two couldn't coexist. They couldn't coexist. Just like Jimmy Johnson, despite all the winning, they couldn't coexist anymore because Jerry had to be the show. So Coach Prime, I mean, is, is there a, a bigger example in sports right now than Coach prime as an alpha plus? He's his own industry man, like commercials. He's. He's involved in everything. He's an, he's in, forget branding. He's his own industry. How does that work? I'm asking you, how does that work?
- [06:56]
Mel Kiper Jr.
I mean, that's, that's the biggest question, because we'll get into this in a minute. There's a lot on paper that's interesting about it, and I get to having the conversation, but you're right. Dion's not going to be coach. Coach. Dion's not going to be a kind of guy who's going to be comfortable staying out of the spotlight and not, not necessarily in a bad way. That's just who he is. And if you're going to be successful at anything, you have to be who you are when you do it. And he has to be that guy who's out front, who's, who's the leader, who is, you know, taking the blame, but also taking the credit when things go well. And that kind of clash, those two egos, is what makes this so fascinating to me. It's so volatile. It could go, it could go really well if this were to go down. The potential for it to absolutely explode is also there. And I think that's what makes it so interesting to people is they want to sit and watch and whether or not this is going to be a train wreck, and they're kind of like, you know, looking out of the corner of their eye to see how bad it is or could this actually work? Because that part of it I get. Listen, if you're looking for a head coach, I think you at least make the call to Coach Dion and you see what. What his feelings are, what his thoughts are. And I know he's never coached in the pros, and we don't know what we don't know, and we'll see how he can make that transition and whether or not he could be success. Successful doing it. But after watching him in Colorado, you see his history with the, obviously the Dallas organization. I get making that call. I get his interest, and I get Jerry Jones interest. I think it's, you know, on paper, it makes sense for them to have a conversation. It's what you're talking about that makes it so fascinating. And whether or not they can get out of each other's way or manage the relationship in a way that will allow them both to be successful.
- [08:34]
Todd McShay
The press conference would be a thing of beauty, right?
- [08:38]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Like at first conference, the whole thing, man, from beginning to end, would be must watch tv.
- [08:44]
Todd McShay
And that's what Jerry wants. So that's why I'm not ruling this out as. As hard as it is to imagine. Like, at the end of the day, it's about football operations. How does the football operation work? We saw in New England, complete disaster. Collaboration. No true boss Robert Kraft is not that different. That situation in New England is not that different from the Jerry Jones falling out with Jimmy Johnson. Oh, but Jerry Jones just didn't put up with it as long. And the winning lasted longer with Bill Belichick. But you could, I mean, just. You don't even have to read that deep between the, you know, between the lines or in the tea leaves to realize that Robert Kraft, he wanted more. Say he didn't want a dictator in the house, and so he wanted more collaboration. But I think Robert Kraft is wise enough that after a year of that project or experiment, that he realized, like, this isn't going to work. I don't know that Jerry, in this point of his career, at 82 years old, having done it the same way for 30 something years and still made a boatload of money and has done it with his family and has done it, you know, as him being the front face of the organization. I don't know that he's ready to and forget even Coach prime, anyone that he brings in. That's the fascinating part to me. Like, and why would Coach prime want this job outside of. Just for the same reasons that Jerry would like. It would literally be the biggest show in sports. It may only be that for a year or two years. Then I promise, like, that it is so clear to me that this would end in an explosion. Like, it would not end well.
- [10:33]
Mel Kiper Jr.
There's the reaction to the Troy Aikman comments about the job opening was interesting.
- [10:37]
Todd McShay
That was interesting, right?
- [10:38]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Yeah, it's interesting for a couple of reasons. One of what really kind of fascinates me was the response was that, oh, Troy Aikman said that this might not be an attractive job for a coaching candidate. And can you believe that? Yeah, yeah, I can believe it and I can believe it for some of the reasons you're discussing right now. I mean, it's a tough situation when you go in and you have that hands on owner and he's always got his thumb on the scale and it's not really your program, it's his program. It's not that attractive of a job. You know, you have a good but not great quarterback and Dak Prescott coming back. You have some, some issues in terms of free agency and cap space and all of these things. To me, what Aan said was obvious. The only reason it's news is because he's an absolute legend, a Hall of Fame quarterback who won so many games for them. That's the only reason it's news. If anyone else said that, I think, you know, most people would think, you know, just nod their head along and say, yeah, that makes complete sense. It's not that attractive of a job.
- [11:36]
Todd McShay
I look at Kellen Moore. Excuse me, seems to be the, the name that, like, if you look at like odds on favorites, it's Kellen Moore and understandably, like kellen, when Mike McCarthy got the job, Kellen Moore was, it was predetermined that Kellen Moore was going to be the oc. And that feels like a Jerry Jones hire. Right? Right in house. My guy appointed all along the way, going to do it my way. Not I know Kellen is a quarterback and evaluated him and interviewed him and all that stuff. I'm not saying he's not an alpha dog, but I'm saying in the coaching ranks he's not been in a position to be the, the true alpha. Right. So. Right. So that's kind of that, that falls in line with what Jerry's done. So that, that One would make sense. The problem is there's no reasoning. It's like, you know, it's like reasoning with a. With an X when you just. It's not going to work. Like your, Your personalities don't jive or you, you know, the, the character flaws, male or female, like, you get to a point where in certain relationships, no matter what the relationship is, you got to either put. Set up boundaries or, or you just learn to live with it. I. I just don't think. I just wonder what's gonna. What's gonna work. If Jerry's not gonna change, then it's gonna be a lot of the same. Right. And the other thing, too, is not. Not to cut off my own point, but the other thing, too is, is Coach prime only coming if. If we're going up and getting. Getting my son going to get Shador Sanders in the draft, how is that going to work? Where does Dallas pick? Dallas? I don't think Dallas is in the top. What are they, 11, 12.
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Mel Kiper Jr.
12, right. Yeah, 12. They're 12.
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Todd McShay
12. So while most people in the league rank these quarterbacks in that range, like mid first at best, I still think they're going to go higher than. I don't think they're going to sit there. Now is. How would that even work? I guess Coach prime, you say, well, my son's not going to go play anywhere else, so he's got to come here.
- [13:45]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Right. So you just got to let him wait till 12. We're not giving anything up to go get him. No, I mean, we've talked about this a lot. No team is going to let that happen. Someone in the top 11 picks will say, okay, we're taking Shador, and then you got to come get him.
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Todd McShay
Or you're.
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Mel Kiper Jr.
Yeah. Or just trade up now so we don't have to deal with all this nonsense.
- [14:01]
Todd McShay
And by the way, you. You've got a quarterback in Dak Prescott.
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Mel Kiper Jr.
That you just paid.
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Todd McShay
Paid, paid. Which.
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Mel Kiper Jr.
That's a whole other thing, talking about that contract. Yeah.
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Todd McShay
Still.
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Mel Kiper Jr.
Still. Still a little intriguing, the idea of it, you know, the.
- [14:21]
Todd McShay
Oh, it's fascinating.
- [14:23]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Yeah. And I'm not sure. Okay, we don't. I'll say this over and over again. We don't know. What. We don't know. We don't know. You know, I. Dion, I think, has been great for Colorado. Will he be able to have that kind of success at the NFL level? I don't know. Will he be able to handle the big personalities, the CD Lambs, the Micah Parsons.
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Todd McShay
Yeah. Let me ask You a question. When. When we first started talking about this and when the information came kind of across the board, one of my first thoughts was. And. And I promise you, I'm asking this question because I don't have the answer, and I don't know that anyone truly has the answer. But I'm just curious your opinion, like, as a college coach and the way that Coach prime goes about his business, like Those young men, 18, 22 years old, look up to him, view him as like the. The guy a lot like father figure, those sorts of. You know what I mean? Is that going to work, period, in an NFL locker room? Because I think part of his value. I think part of Coach Prime's value at the college level is he truly can reach these young men and he truly can help develop them as men, as productive members of society, help them in critical years of development. I truly do believe that. And people may not agree with his philosophies on it and what he thinks is right and wrong and the showmanship and all that stuff. I understand that. But you can't argue that. That he doesn't reach them, right, Coach? Part of his secret sauce is he truly reaches them and he truly cares. Okay, Will that then translate to the end? He's not coming in as, like, is the X's and O's guy, this. This brilliant offensive scheme or. Or brilliant defense? He's coming in as and as. As a guy who can reach his players and inspire them and get them to play as one and run the operation. Will that work as you're trying to, like, as a free agent, do I want to go to Dallas and. And be. And I don't want to say deal, but. But. And that be the dynamic. Do I. Am I looking for that dynamic, or am I 28, 29, 30 years old? I'm looking to go. To go win, obviously. To go get paid, obviously. But if the winning opportunities and the money opportunities are all the same, am I choosing that environment with Coach prime or is it just a little too much or a lot for me?
- [16:57]
Mel Kiper Jr.
I'm not naive about it. I mean, Nick Saban's the goat. And ask him about trying to make the transition to the NFL and how that went for him. It obviously didn't work. Well, what I will say is that if you're one of those players, man, you. I don't know how you not wanting to want to play for Dion, because the difference there is that Dion was so successful at the NFL level and he could pull a guy aside like a Micah Parsons and be like, look, man, I know your contract's up. This is what I went through when I went to San Francisco. This is what I had to deal when I deal with when I was the Cowboys.
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Todd McShay
He's.
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Mel Kiper Jr.
He had that kind of success at the NFL level. We're talking about hall of Fame corner, maybe. Maybe the best of all time. Right. He's in that conversation. That is a unique background.
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Todd McShay
Yeah.
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Mel Kiper Jr.
And that is something where I think that, you know, you can have guys who are great college players and they can be great college coaches. To be that kind of a player at the pro level and have that kind of experience and to be able to share that with these players and say. And to pull them into your office and be like, yeah, no, no, don't. Don't explain this to me. I've been there, man. I know where you are right now. I've been through struggles. I've played really at a high level. I've been in an All Pro. Like, I know I've done contracts. I know how all of this works. And you can either sit here and listen to me and we can have a conversation about it, or you can tell me that you know better, and those are the kind of players, really, you're going to want to weed out of your program anyways. So, to me, I. We, again, I don't know. But, yeah, there's reason to be optimistic about him being different than other coaches who have tried to make this jump.
- [18:22]
Todd McShay
Mike Vrabel is one of the first guys that pops in my head when you say, like a head coach that. That has that. That cachet, that has that, you know, and Dion was a more prolific, dynamic, you know, player during his days, but Vs did an awful lot of winning and was a hell of a football player in the ring of honor in New England, all that stuff. The difference is, I don't view Vrabel as trying to. There's different cultures. That's how I would put it. I think it's a different. I think it's more of a business, coaching, demanding. With Vrabel, I don't know.
- [19:01]
Mel Kiper Jr.
I. I just actually, you know, the more you talk about it, I'm not sure they're. They're that different other than Dion was a much more prolific player in the league. I think that Dion could be that same kind of pro coach where he's very demanding of his players and sets high expectations. I think he's done that at Colorado, you know. Did you see the. Did you see the Taylor Luan clip about. About Varel going to England and when he's like, he's gonna tell you that he played in the league for this many years, he's going to tell you about every five minutes. And I thought, I just thought it was hilarious. I could just see Rabel being like, you know, how many games I played, you know, you know, when I was with Belichick and Brady and blah, blah, blah. I just thought it was great that he was, you know, kind of poking fun of Rabel while still giving him a little bit of an endorsement. But listen, I think that Deion could run that kind of a tight ship. I don't think he's going to be when I, when I'm talking about him with those conversations with these players and the way he could connect with a 28 year old NFL player. I don't mean that as I think he's going to be a player's coach. I actually don't. I think it just gives him a unique perspective to bring into that conversation and say, look, you're not going to explain anything to me that I don't already know and can say to them like, you don't have to take that number and I get it and you want more and if you can go get it, go get it. But you know, these, these are the realities of this situation. Now I do think it gets very complicated, very complicated if you bring your son into play quarterback because then, then it's a whole different thing. Now I'm talking about if Shador Sanders doesn't, you know, if they don't make a big move to get him and Shadore Sanders doesn't end up with that star on his helmet. It's a very different situation. As a veteran, when you're coming in and you're saying, oh, your son's the quarterback. Are you going to be willing to make the change if you need to be to make the change. And that's a whole nother conversation.
- [20:48]
Todd McShay
Yeah. And it's not like Dak is disliked in Dallas.
- [20:52]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Right.
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Todd McShay
I mean, you know, like, yeah, it would be an all or nothing. It would, I mean, talk about a. Taking a big hack for the fences.
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Mel Kiper Jr.
Hope it happens.
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Todd McShay
Well, everyone in, everyone in our position, everyone in media, everyone who doesn't, you know, isn't a, it's easy to. Because it, it, you know, it's, it's the ratings grab, like I said, off the top. It's, it's the story. It's, it, it would make sense be in that it absolutely like falls in line with. We've Got to have the most attention on the star. Here we are. That from a football operation standpoint, knowing Jerry is. Who. Who Jerry is, and that is not changed in over three decades. I don't see how it works.
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Mel Kiper Jr.
I agree with you.
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Todd McShay
That's from a business standpoint, from marketing, pr, The. Yeah, it falls right in line with what they are.
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Mel Kiper Jr.
That version of Hard Knocks would be the greatest reality show of all time.
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Todd McShay
Oh, my God.
- [21:54]
Mel Kiper Jr.
I'm just gonna go ahead and say it.
- [21:56]
Todd McShay
I mean, the ratings would be absurd. All right. I meant I mentioned Brable and New England, another team this off season. They jumped on it quickly. They got their guy. I don't think anyone can completely disagree. I think most people are. We're screaming for this Teddy Brusky friend of ours and. And. And. And obviously a friend, a good friend of Vrabels and a Patriots legend was screaming for it and. And. And got it. And I think everyone in New England is. Is kind of in line with this. Is. This is the right decision. It's the right decision because of what I just mentioned before. I. I think Robert Kraft needed a year to kind of cleanse himself and. And. And test the waters and kind of run things the way that Jerry's wanted to run them for a while. And it's not dissimilar. Families. Families in charge. We're the owners. We want more. Say we think we can, and. But I give Robert Kraft a ton of credit because this. Higher signals. Maybe. Maybe I'm better off in a role where I'm supporting everything I'm owning. I'm giving the resources to the people that I'm bringing in to run the operation. No different than being an owner of a company and hiring the right CFO and CMO and all like. And Vrabel's made it clear. I'll give him credit just in hearing him talk. It's been very clear that Ryan Cowden, who worked with him at the Titans for a handful of years, spent the last year with the Giants, that he wants Ryan to come in and be part of the personnel decision making. But he hasn't gone in. He had good conversations. He said, with Elliott Wolf. He hasn't gone in and said, you know, I'm clearing house. I'm. You know, he hasn't done that. And there's value in Elliott Wolf, like, everyone you talk to in personnel, you know, circles, like, he can evaluate talent. He's a, you know, college scouting background. So. So instead of, like, the beauty is that that Elliot Wolf was never promoted to general manager. He had this different title. And so, so I think Vrabel comes in, brings in, is going to bring in his guy and Ryan Cowden, it sounds like. And Elliot Wolf, at least the initial thoughts are will, will wind up being part of the, the personnel group. But at the end of the day, don't make any mistake about it. Vrabel is aligning this, and I think part of the reason why it was no longer going to work in Tennessee, Vrabel's aligning this where he is the ultimate decision maker.
- [24:24]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Of course, I don't think he takes that job otherwise.
- [24:27]
Todd McShay
Of course not. And, and so by in, in hiring Variable, it. It's very clear. It doesn't signal. It's very clear that Craft family has said, all right, this, we need someone to handle all this. And Varel can, can handle all this. So it's a. Releasing the power. Right.
- [24:46]
Mel Kiper Jr.
I agree. I will say this. I, I disagree with the Elliott Wolf situation, and I mean no disrespect to him. I think he's a respected talent evaluator. You know, he's an asset to a team. Too many chefs in the kitchen, man. You're bringing your own guy in. Yeah. I think it's time, it's time to part ways and have a clean start. Let Elliot Wolf go, go elsewhere. He'll be fine. And he may, he may. I, I just, I just don't. How does that work?
- [25:14]
Todd McShay
I don't disagree. We've been parts of different companies buying out different companies and all that. And inevitably what happens is the, the, the new core that comes in, it may not be immediate, but, but eventually there's a inability to jive. Right. And then there's a lot of like, arranged marriage. You hear it range. Yeah. And, and the thing that I've gone through, the experiences I've had from starting the war room with Gary Horton and you, you were, you know, part of the, the very first stages of it and have been with me ever since. And going from that to like Sporting News and Sporting News to ESPN and ESPN bought out by Disney. Like ultimately, at the end of the day, what happens every time is that. And people like water cooler talk. It's not like it's texting, it's cell phones, it's meeting for, for dinner or drink. And, and, and the conversation start as whispers and then they get louder. And then people from the, the new group that came in hear that, their conversations going on, they get offended and it just winds up splintering. Right.
- [26:22]
Mel Kiper Jr.
What happens when you sit down in a suite in Indianapolis and you're watching players and Elliot Wolf says man, I really like this defensive end or this edge for Penn State. And. And Cow's like that's not really the kind of player that we look for in the system. Like how does. How do those conversations go?
- [26:38]
Todd McShay
They don't end well.
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Mel Kiper Jr.
They generally not. I mean generally it can work and it could work in New England. I'm not saying, you know, we know everything about everything. But that's. That's a tough. That's a tough spot to be in. I just. I. To me it makes more sense that New England is clearly making a clean.
- [26:55]
Todd McShay
Start here than maybe stronger personality. He's as strong a personality as you'll ever be around. And he gives 000 like I promise.
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Mel Kiper Jr.
You I've been never as a player either.
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Todd McShay
I remember going out and hanging out with Urban and hanging out at practice at Ohio State and like there was one. There was one general there but he had a top lieutenant and everyone else like ultimately it was Urban's deal but it was very clear that who the second in charge was and he was just as powerful in terms of everyone below. Like he is a strong personality. And so if. If that strong personality is bringing in his guy, they're gonna align and you. You better either take all that ego bottle and throw it out or just go find another place to operate. Yeah, I don't disagree with that.
- [27:55]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Should we get into, you know, just kind of in this conversation about leadership groups and you know we were sitting around talking and we're talking about Jaden Daniels, you know, who we've talked about a fair amount over the course of the. The podcast and what. What has made him so successful in Washington. And it's some of the things that we're you know, discussing about what Dallas is maybe lacking, what New England is looking to get right now. And that's. It's really to me is the leadership group.
- [28:23]
Todd McShay
Yes. And. And we saw. And we saw in Washington new ownership, new head coach, strong leadership. Leadership that that is effective. That actually like is is is kind and caring and takes care of the people inside the organization. All things that did not exist with Daniel Snider. All thing like beyond not exist like it was. I mean I had a very good. I have a very good friend Todd Klein, who, Who put together the whole deal for the Hard Rock Cafe. I grew up with Todd, one of you know, small group of friends from a small town, you know Todd and he worked with the. With the Redskins for just a little bit. And so I, I Got to know some of the stories and I can't even share them. Just couldn't get out of there fast enough.
- [29:08]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Saying that Dan Snyder mismanaged the football operations might be the nicest thing you can say about the man.
- [29:15]
Todd McShay
Right.
- [29:15]
Mel Kiper Jr.
And that's, that's saying a lot. And, and it matters. Listen, it matters when you create any. Anyone who's ever had a job, if you've ever had a job where it's a toxic, quote unquote toxic. I don't really love all these terms with the toxic workplace where you're not comfortable working somewhere where you're not comfortable going in day to day. The. The waterfall effect of that is catastrophic. It's catastrophic when people aren't comfortable where they are, where they're not happy where they are. And when you're able to create an environment like I. It seems that, that Josh Harris, the new owner of the Commanders, has been able to, to create there. Things can start to turn around quickly. And I think that's what you've seen with that franchise.
- [29:52]
Todd McShay
Yeah, I mean, Daniel Snyder was a horrible human being, period.
- [29:54]
Mel Kiper Jr.
I mean, there's no.
- [29:55]
Todd McShay
So that's easy. And what he did is. Is he. You know, you just said waterfall made me like I had a mental image like this new ownership group has come in and they've like, they looked at a garden that hadn't, that hadn't been watered in, in decades and put some. Simply put some water on it and all of a sudden start to see things come alive and grow. Did you see what.
- [30:17]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Do you see what Harris said after the game, after the win? He said twice, I think he said, just said talent culture, people. Talent, culture, people. It's that simple, man. It really is that simple. And when you take that approach, you're getting talented players in there. You're creating a culture where they can grow, where they can develop. And you're putting also your front office people, your, Your training staff, your coaches, everyone in an environment where they feel like they are in a position to grow and get better at their job. It's incredible what can happen. I mean, and look, obviously getting Jaden Daniels, you want to give Jayden Daniels all the credit in the world, but there's enough praise for a team that goes from 7 and 9 and hadn't had a winning record since 2016 to go to 12 and 5 and win a wild card game. I think there's enough praise to go around to Dan Quinn, the head coach, and to Adam Peters, the gm, into the ownership group and to Cliff Kingsbury the offense. When you start looking at why did Jane. Why. It's not their roster. Their roster's pretty good. They got some players. They still have a lot to do. I think what's, that's kind of what's scary about them going forward is they have. They're in a position with cap space to really build that thing out next year and they could be an even better team. It's not their roster. I think it's the people that they've brought in, in the environment they've created.
- [31:31]
Todd McShay
I was fascinated. So, so just, you know, full transparency. I, I had a personal thing to deal with yesterday. All good. But you guys had a conference call and discussed some different topics and kind of threw some things at me. And I, I do this all the time. Like, I've got to control myself sometimes. But I wound up going in this rabbit hole, right? Because. Because I'm looking at it and, and we've got this clear picture. We could throw up our. The top 10 picks, the draft order. Right. We've got this picture now we know who's drafting at the top, starting with Tennessee and then Cleveland, the Giants at 3, Patriots, 4, Jaguars, Raiders, 5 and 6, respectively. Then Jets, Panthers, Saints and Bears. Okay. And we did the QB or not QB basically next to it. And, and as you can see, six of the top 10 need quarterbacks. Okay. Mitch.
- [32:19]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Right.
- [32:20]
Todd McShay
I got in this rabbit hole of why, like, why do we over overly complicate this thing? Okay. You either identify a quarterback that you truly believe in. In some years there just aren't in the draft. Some years there just aren't quarterbacks. You truly believe it. That doesn't. Like I can think Cam Ward is the savior is going, is going to, you know, transform an organization. It has, has tools that, that will, will do it. And we believe in. And you can believe otherwise. And I promise you in talking to people throughout the league, it's, it's that like there's a line in the sand. There are some that believe that, that Cam Ward can be that guy. There are some that believe that Shador Sanders can be that guy. But to be quite honest, more, more often than not, in the conversations I'm having, there's lack of certainty. Or it's. Yeah, I just, I'm glad we're not in a position this year to have to draft one of those guys. It's not the year. Last year was the year. Six guys drafted in the top 12, all of them shown promise, except JJ McCarthy. But even JJ, before his injury, was tracking to be the starter of the Minnesota Vikings. And we know he's in a great situation with one of the best quarterback coaching head coaches out there and Kevin O'Connell. So when I look at this situation, I, I started down this rabbit hole. I started to say, okay, and, and it started with you, Mitch. It started with, with what you said. I think it was last week or two weeks ago, Tennessee. We saw Ran Carthon was fired and you asked me if I was gm, what would he do? And I said, you know, first of all, try to, try to trade the pick. And I went down the list of things and you were like, and, and I've ultimately said, but I, I, you know, at the end of the day, you've got to find your quarterback. So maybe you just take it, take a hack at one of these guys if you believe in them. And, and you were like, I don't know, man, like, I'm going defensive line, I'm getting a pass rusher. And when we were done with the show, I was like, yeah, like, yeah, men, she's right. Mitch is right, you know, but seriously, like that. If I really, truly was in the GM position, I've done this study over and over again, you know, over and over again. I know what works. I've, I, I didn't work for Ozzy Newsom, but great friends with Joe Douglas and have, have like been the, the process that has worked for them, for them has been shared. I've, I have friends throughout the league and a lot of these different places. We've been fortunate enough to kind of know, to learn like what works, why it works, what's behind it, like sitting in the, in Indianapolis at the Conrad Hotel and guys from the league coming in and out and it's not like, oh, did you see that 40 yard dash on the player? Did you see this? No, it's, it's. Let me tell you a story about this player, right? Let me tell you about how much he loves this game. It's talking to Jason Garrett in Indy one day and just sitting down, having a good conversation with him about trust. Do we have players that have trust and hunger? Trust and hunger. And it's a tough thing to find. And, and then talking about the, the importance and how you build a roster and build it with. You've got to obviously have the quarterback, but, but when you finally get the quarterback, no matter how you get it, you better have everything else in place. You better be able to protect and you better have a vicious, ferocious defense. Truly.
- [35:46]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Right?
- [35:46]
Todd McShay
And the rest, the rest you can hand pluck the rest in the second, third, fourth round, you can find a wide receiver. The Steelers have done it for decades. The packers have done it for decades. And when you see some of the great teams, when they mess up like the Ravens, where have they messed up in the draft over and over and over again? Wide receiver.
- [36:06]
Mel Kiper Jr.
A wide receiver. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [36:07]
Todd McShay
When the Patriots.
- [36:09]
Mel Kiper Jr.
So I'm giving them some credit.
- [36:11]
Todd McShay
Yeah. But for. For like over a decade, it was.
- [36:14]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Right.
- [36:14]
Todd McShay
It was. Oh, it was missing running backs for a lot of these places. The Patriots miss on wide receivers miss on running backs. Right. So I did this deep dive, and this is the worst television radio podcast thing you could ever do. All right. But bear with me. I haven't been able to do this my entire career, so I'm going to wear you out for a few minutes. But I want. I just want to. I just want people to understand when we talk about the importance of building a roster and not just swinging for a quarterback just because it's the only quarterback there, here's what's going on. When. When teams are in their meetings and they're looking at the big picture, and we're not here for one year, we're not here to just win next year. We're here to try to build an organization. And if you're drafting in the top 10, most of these cases, they're trying to rebuild an organization that has fallen off the. The rails. Okay. Philadelphia Eagles, I think we can all agree, for a long time, they've been successful. You don't have to agree with some of their people in their personnel department. You don't have to agree with some of their moves, all that. But what's the foundation? Howie Roseman's been there from since 2010 to present. Run calling the shots. 2010, five defensive players drafted. Okay. Two pass rushers, starting with Brandon Graham that year. 2011, offensive guard, solidify our trenches. Then three defensive players. 2012, four or five defensive players, including Fletcher Cox. Also, Nick Foles was that one offensive pick. Okay. 2013, five defensive players, just three offensive players. And. And the. One of the offensive players was Lane Johnson with the first pick, again in the trenches. Okay. Zach Ertz was the other offensive player early in that draft. Identifying players. Yes. Okay. 2014, five of seven defensive players. 2015, five of six defensive players. From about 2014 on, they were an elite defensive team with a solid offensive line. Then they bring in, in 2016, Carson Wentz. They also draft a guard or running back in an offensive tackle. Okay. Because it's Time. It's time we've got an elite defense for the last couple of years. We've got to change. We, we've identified our quarterback. Doesn't matter how it all turned out in the end. We've identified our quarterback. Let's get him another offensive lineman, running back, offensive tackle. Then they drafted. But in that same year, the next four picks, defensive players 2017, first three players, defensive players 2018. Got her great pick. Then got two defensive players and two offensive tackles. So are you following me here? Right.
- [38:39]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Right.
- [38:40]
Todd McShay
The other thing, the other thing the Eagles did throughout all of this, every year, two years they were drafted a quarterback.
- [38:47]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Right.
- [38:48]
Todd McShay
Okay. Didn't always work out, but you go back to, to, to Walsh and, and, and the, the whole like the history of the NFL and it's, you know, like the personnel people, smart personnel people follow this M. I don't care if it's fifth rounder, sixth rounder every, every couple years. Let's, let's bring in another quarterback, let's try to develop them and then if the worst case, we got a really, we got a solid backup that we want. Best case he becomes a starter somewhere in between, we get some value trading them. Right.
- [39:16]
Mel Kiper Jr.
So the way rookie contracts are now, especially with the way rookie contracts are.
- [39:20]
Todd McShay
Yeah, it's a no brainer. It's stealing money. Nick Foles in 2012. Matt Barkley 2013. Carson once in 2016. Thorson in 2019. Jalen Hurts, second round pick in 2020. Then even in 2022, they draft McKee. He had to come in and play. You just don't know. That's, that's Philly. How about Kansas City with Brett Feach? They get their quarterback first year that Brett Feach, I told you when he was a personnel guy was banging down the door, bugging the out of, out of Andy Reid. That Mahomes is the guy two years before he's even eligible. They got Mahomes in 2017. Veach was promoted to GM. Also got Kareem Hunt after that. You ready?
- [40:00]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Yep.
- [40:01]
Todd McShay
All this trend, I mean it's so obvious. 2018, all, all six picks, defensive side of the ball. 2019, wide receiver Nicole Harmon. Then three defensive players in a row. 2020, Edwards Allaire. Not a great pick at running back. I talked about it. Wide receiver, running back. Be careful first round. Unless they're like, unless we're talking top 10 like the elite guys.
- [40:22]
Mel Kiper Jr.
I loved Edwards, Hilaire coming out of lsu and it just, it just hasn't panned out.
- [40:25]
Todd McShay
Yeah, but then after Edwards Lair for the next five players. Defensive players 2021, two of the first three picks defensive players including Nick Bolton. 2022 now we have an elite defense. Yeah, still five of their first six picks on the defensive side. 2023, still an elite defense, five of their first seven picks. Right. So when you have the quarterback and you have a great defense with it, the quarterback makes up for so many sins on the other side. We, we. We lucked into not we didn't luck into. We took a real chance on a major character. Major character Guy in Tyree Kill paid off, right? Kareem Hunt came in. But you can pluck guys you free agents draft later. You can find guys that are offensive weapons. Make sure you're protecting your quarterback, but you better have a damn good defense. Baltimore, same thing. Ozzie Newsom. I mean you go all the way back to the Ray Lewis and and some of their their picks but start but you go back to 09 like offensive tackle Michael or then three defensive players. 2010, first two defensive players 2013, first four players drafted. Defense 2014, four or five defense 2015 they want more offense and they had some bus. But then they hit on Carl Davis and Zadarius Smith. Offensive tackle in 2016, then three defensive players 2017, first five picks, defensive player like the Ravens, the Chiefs, the Eagles. I could do the same thing I could do go down the road for Buffalo, right? The Bills, a long list of guys. Josh Allen came in 2018 after Josh Josh Allen, they had four defensive players. The two years before that it was three defensive players. Lawson Ragland, 2017, the year before Josh Allen, cornerback and then offensive line with a receiver in there. Then after Allen it was defensive tackle for first pick in 19. Then in 2020, first pick was an edge. 2021. First two picks are edges, Russo and Basham. And then after that, two offensive tackles. It's the same trend. So you look at the playoffs now, right? And even the Rams watch that game last night. Even the Rams. The better, the better offensive. I I texted les Snead, their GM5, six days ago out of the blue. I'm just, I'm looking, I'm watching, I'm watching the. The Rams play. I think it was in the final week. I forget. I don't know why. It just hit me. I'm like, I haven't reached out to Les in a while but my goodness, like remember this is the same guy who was wearing like draft picks that T shirt. You know, when they went out and got all the free agents kind of like, yeah, yeah, it was a push. It's not, it's not his, like, principle and how he was raised in all this. But everyone was saying they won't draft for four years, and he's like, yeah, I get it. But different circumstances, tapping the ring on the different opportunity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. But he's. But. But in order to replenish that roster and in order to stay near the top, they had to. Then once the. All the free agent stuff and all the cap issues and all that, how do. Now how do we. How do we stay competitive? We better start drafting guys. Let's get Puka Nakua. Let's identify him. Let's get. Let's. Let's go to Florida State and get two players that for some reason are vastly underrated. Jared Verse and Fisk, right? And look at where they are now, you know, and I'm not saying it's an elite team this year. Win in Philly, but I'm watching nine sacks last night in a vicious defense matched up with what a good. A good quarterback that has enough weapon. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, this, like, to me, like, that's the draft blueprint, right? That right there is the draft blueprint. Draft a quarterback, find your guy. If it takes five different hacks at it in seven, eight years, find your guy. But when you do it, already have everything in place. Loading up on defensive front guys, loading up on cornerbacks and versatile defensive backs. Right. And. And making sure your offensive line is good enough to protect that asset. The rest we can find a running back.
- [44:45]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Yeah.
- [44:45]
Todd McShay
Wide receivers value has gone up so much. And I get it, and it should be. But get one of the elite ones or wait till the second, second round, wait till third. Like there are other guys to get. Identify those guys.
- [44:57]
Mel Kiper Jr.
You, you talked about the Ravens a little bit really quickly. A guy that they're not there yet, but someone I'm really excited to watch going forward is the general manager for the Chargers. And I know that they just had a tough loss, but Joe Ortiz is. Might be the least. It might be the least surprising story that he's already killing it because everyone knew once he got his shot, he was so ready. He's so talented. He's so good at what he does. And then for him, first two picks, first two picks he takes Joe Alt and Lad McConkey. That's a pretty good start. And then he got the corner out of Maryland Tar Heap still in the fifth round. Yeah, he looks like he's going to be a dude yeah, he had a great year. I mean, they went from 5 and 12, last in the AFC west, and again, I know it was a tough end, but they were 11 and 6 this year. I'm excited to see what Ortiz, with that background, he knows what he's doing with that background, what they do, spinning.
- [45:45]
Todd McShay
It forward, but, you know. Yeah, go ahead.
- [45:49]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Were you gonna say something?
- [45:50]
Todd McShay
I was gonna say Joe Ortiz is another example of paying your dues, doing it the right way for a long time. Joe Douglas did the same thing, had the same experience. Right. Joe Ortiz was there. And also wait for the right opportunity. Wait, you know, find the right opportunity. Harbaugh, commitment from the organization, a quarterback like that. Yeah. Vrabel's coming back to New England, Ring of Honor, super bowl rings, all that, like, all of that is fun.
- [46:23]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Right?
- [46:24]
Todd McShay
Vrabel's in New England because of Drake May. Right. Period. Okay. I believe that. And, and, and it's why it was such an attractive job. If Drake may just kind of sputter this year and didn't show all the promise, I don't know that they're landing variable or an elite. An elite coach. Because now you've got an owner that appears to be, after one year, kind of like meddlesome. And what, like, I just don't know. That's the destination I want. You're not going to land a Ben Johnson, one of these, like, the top guys. Vrabel and Ben Johnson are the top two names. New England landed one. And you can't tell me it didn't have a ton to do with Drake May.
- [47:05]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Absolutely not. So as. As that conversation is a backdrop. I love doing this to you. The jets are calling, the Titans are calling, and the Raiders are calling. They all want to offer you the job. What's the best situation to go into as a GM right now? Which one of those spots would be the best for you?
- [47:26]
Todd McShay
All right. Only two of them matter here because the Jets. The jets are third by. By the greatest distance you can ever imagine. Yeah.
- [47:36]
Mel Kiper Jr.
I mean, you've made your. You've made your thoughts clear about it. And if anyone hasn't heard it, it's the ownership. The ownership is an issue. It's been a mess for a long time. Then you also look at the Aaron Rodgers situation. They have aging free agents at. At tackle. You've got three young players. You're going to have to play pay soon. It's a. It's a mess. And it all starts with Woody Johnson, the owner, and you're obviously not a fan.
- [47:55]
Todd McShay
Yeah, Woody Johnson could offer me 3, 4 million dollars to be the GM tomorrow, and I would turn it down.
- [48:00]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Okay. If you're listening, Mr. Johnson, I probably. I'd probably take that deal.
- [48:05]
Todd McShay
Yeah. And I'd be your assistant gm, so. So. All right. Fascinating question. I love it.
- [48:14]
Mel Kiper Jr.
So it comes down to Raiders and Titans. Can I tell you I would go with.
- [48:20]
Todd McShay
No. You asked me the question. I'm going to answer it. I would actually go with the Raiders, even though I think there's a little more dysfunction. But here's why I would do it, because I would align myself with Tom Brady. I would align myself with Tom. And as long as Tom and I were on the same wavelength and how. How to proceed with this organization, I. I think Mark Davis would then be in line with it, and then I could create the culture. I could call the shots. Tom would, you know, inevitably have a say in it, but I would utilize Tom as an asset rather than view it as he's making more decisions than he should. If I could align myself with Tom, I. I think that that would be the more intriguing spot. Tennessee. Tennessee is difficult because they've just, They've. They've gone through, you know, as John Robinson now ran Carthon new head coach, I just, I worry about that. And neither place has a quarterback, so that's, that's the first obstacle, you know, Tennessee's drafting. Yeah. And if I'm Tennessee. If I'm Tennessee and I can't trade out of that pick, I'm. I'm following the blueprint. I'm. I'm following the blueprint. Just look at Detroit. Another example. Penne Sewell in 2021, offensive tackle. Then Levi Anzarici. First three picks, OT, DT, DT, 2022, Hutch. Right. And then Jameson. Detroit's fascinating. I know I'm going. I'll come back in a second. Detroit's fascinating because it's all about offensive line, defensive line, DB, versatile DBs, dudes, and, you know, to run that Aaron Glenn defense. But Detroit's blueprint was this. And, And I, I do. I don't have knowledge of the picks or anything like that. But. But Chris Spielman, I worked with him for years, and he is a very close personal friend. And the things that he's preached to me and the things that are. That are within that organization with Brad Holmes as the. The clear leader. And I like. I can't praise Brad Holmes enough for the job he's done in Detroit as a general manager since taking over that job in 2021. But organizationally, and I'm not. This isn't what they've said, these words, but essentially, organizationally and from the draft standpoint, we're going to be the baddest mofos on the block, but we're also going to have the fastest getaway cars.
- [50:53]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Yeah, it's actually, that's a really interesting way.
- [50:56]
Todd McShay
We're going to beat you up in the trenches. We're going to be bigger and stronger up front. We're going to have, we're going to have defensive linemen that are nasty, we're going to get after you. We're going to have DBs that could play that are multiple, that will come up and hit. You gonna have all that stuff. Grit, right. Dan Campbell for all falls in line. There's a culture. I hate the word cult there, there's a personality to that team. And I get news for you too. Find players that fit the profile. The profile for Detroit. You talk about blueprints. I've talked to Bill Poan about this for years. They brought in a psychologist before it was even a thing to find the, the profile of individuals that love the game. Not what it brings to them, but actually love the freaking game and fit the profile. You talk about fitting a profile in Detroit. Amanra St. Brown, 4th round pick, hardest working dude out there, right? Malcolm Rodriguez, absolute leader, tough guy. Going to give you every last ounce in that body. Six round pick, James Houston from Jackson State. Six round pick, Josh Pascal. I don't know that we've ever evaluated a player mensch sitting in hotel rooms in Mobile, in Indianapolis, talking to GMs and scouts. Like the stories we heard about his leadership and what he had to overcome. You know, like these are the profile of players. Some of the highest FBI guys, football intelligence guys out there. I mean literally some of the best football intelligence players I've ever studied. Right? Hutch at defensive end, Penne Sewell at offensive tackle, Campbell at linebacker. Branch as your star arnotarian, Arnold. Ask Nick Saban what he thinks. Ask, ask Ms. Terry what she thinks about Terry and Arnold as a person. You know what I mean?
- [52:40]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Yeah.
- [52:40]
Todd McShay
Kirby Joseph, safety. Just guys that are smart football players that love the game. So that's the profile. We're going to be smart, we're going to be tough, we're gonna have the grit. But we also are going to sprinkle in the fastest getaway cars in the world because we got Jameson Williams, right? We got, we got Jameer Gibbs and we got Sam Laporta. So when it seemed like, boy, that doesn't why are they drafting a running back and a linebacker and a tight end? They've got four picks in the first two rounds. What are they doing? They knew exactly what they were doing.
- [53:10]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Yeah, but that takes time. Right? And it takes, I, you know, something we haven't really talked about. There's still a little magic in this game, man. You can have all the ingredients and sometimes it just doesn't come together. There's still a little magic and things have to have to work out. You're in your way and I think that it's training that way for Detroit. They've had a great year and that takes time. And you're talking about taking a Raiders job where they've had 5G. This will be their fifth GM and their fifth coach, head coach since they moved to Vegas in 2020. So are you comfortable with the fact that Davis is going to take the time?
- [53:43]
Todd McShay
I think Tom Brady changes the whole thing. I truly do.
- [53:46]
Mel Kiper Jr.
I do too. I'm not gonna. You know what? I'm trying to play devil's advocate, but I'm with you. I'm taking the Raiders too. And I don't like it. Say before, I don't like arranged marriages. You know, Brian Callahan could be a great coach in this league, but he's still there. So now you're coming as a gm. I don't know.
- [54:00]
Todd McShay
They're.
- [54:00]
Mel Kiper Jr.
They're doing something.
- [54:01]
Todd McShay
They've.
- [54:01]
Mel Kiper Jr.
They're firing head coach. Keeping a gm, firing the gm, keeping the coach. I don't understand what the plan is.
- [54:07]
Todd McShay
Yeah, it's a terrible two step that they're running. I don't agree.
- [54:11]
Mel Kiper Jr.
And if it was last year and I had the first overall pick, man, we just won the lottery, baby. But it's not last year. And that's how draft cycles work. You're in a much different spot. So you're hoping someone falls in love with Cam Ord and you can maybe trade back and get a lot of assets. I think that would probably be the best move. They're not a quarterback away, man. They are not a quarterback away from being a great team. They have other holes they need to fix. So ideally they can trade back and if this was last year, they'd be in a better position to do it. So people be like, oh, you don't want to be the GM of the team of the first overall pick. Not right now. I feel better about the Raiders situation. I just feel better about what that looks like long term. And again, I get the past. Mark Davis, I mean, he goes through got I mean, Tom Tesco, the GM who was just fired for the Raiders, drafted Brock Bowers and two starting offensive linemen last year. And he's out. Tough businessman.
- [55:01]
Todd McShay
I. But I think he's out for a good reason. Has nothing to do necessarily with the job that he did. No, it's because of the. Because we don't want a prearranged marriage. We don't want an arranged marriage. We don't want to force some. We want someone who's going to come in and we're going to start this organization over. And Tom Brady this past year was finally given permission or whatever it is from the NFL and. And was allowed to. He now is a functioning member of that ownership group. And you're kidding yourself if he doesn't have the loudest voice. If you think he doesn't have the loudest voice when it comes to making football decisions, because Mark Davis. Absolutely.
- [55:37]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Absolutely.
- [55:38]
Todd McShay
Absolutely. And so that organization, I feel like, has an opportunity to bring in people in a. In leadership roles that will. That will have the right direction. Okay. So that's why I would choose Raiders first, then Titans, and then I would. I would turn down the Jets. I love it.
- [55:59]
Mel Kiper Jr.
It's just a non. It's a non starter for you. Not even the challenge of going in and maybe turning that franchise around. A storied franchise that, you know, a big market. You think you could maybe turn around for him.
- [56:10]
Todd McShay
Now, the other thing. The other thing, Stevie boy, that. That is very clear. In going through all this, you'd be amazed how many teams wind up with four picks in a draft. Two picks in a draft, seven picks in the. Not seven, five picks in the draft.
- [56:29]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Right.
- [56:30]
Todd McShay
And do it like two out of three years or do it three years in a row. The Baltimore Ravens, I mean, it was always Aussie's thing. And Eric Dasta now has. Has taken all that information and has put his. His touch on things. Absolutely. And have a lot of respect. We're talking about someone who's grown up the right way and learned the right way and all those sorts of things. They've averaged nine picks. They've had 104 picks since 2013. They average nine picks a draft. I just talked about Buffalo. I just looked. I didn't look up all these teams, but I promise you, all of them, it's the same thing. Buffalo average over or average eight picks per year.
- [57:08]
Mel Kiper Jr.
Yeah.
- [57:09]
Todd McShay
And you say, well, we have compensatory picks and you start off with seven picks. You'd be amazed how many teams average fewer than seven Picks, okay, Detroit. They loaded up on those four picks in the first two rounds. Look at that. That may go down as one of the greatest all time drafts, you know, truly. Jameer Gibbs, Campbell, LaPorta, Branch, like, phenomenal in 2022, Hutch, Jameson. Talk about two years to rebuild an organization. How did they do it? They didn't go out and grab. They didn't draft a quarterback number one overall. They did it. They did it with those draft picks. All. Think of all those stars. Hutchinson, Jameson, Williams, Pascal, Kirby, Joseph. All the interceptions. Jameer Gibbs, superstar Campbell at linebacker, LaPorta, one of the best tight ends in the league. Brian Branch, absolute dog and playmaker. Like those two drafts alone. But they had eight picks that were early in those two drafts. You got to nail them, right? You got to, you got to get those picks right. I'm not devaluing the process of evaluating players. If I did, I would be devaluating, devaluing my life, right? Like, that's what we do. We sit here, I watch tape on that screen and like, and we take notes and we compare this to that and we, we cross check each other. Like, but there's, but there's a lot of people that can evaluate talent. Then it's figuring out the profile of a player, how he fits, what we want to do, where do we want to attack in the draft, how do we move back and get more picks? So when we pull up that top 10 draft order again and we start taking a look at it and we say, I'm not sure on Cam Ward. I see there's a lot of talent. I'm not sure on Cam Ward, I'm not sure on Shador. I think he's the best peer passer in this class. I think he has outstanding accuracy and touch, and I think he has instincts as a passer when things break down. But I'm worried about his, his pocket instincts. I'm worried about holding onto the ball too long, taking too many sacks. I'm worried about his frame a little bit, doesn't have an elite arm. And I look at the Tennessee Titans and I say, yeah, we need a quarterback. Will Levis isn't the guy. But if I trade back here, right, if I trade back here and I pick up a second this year and a first next year, what would that do? What would that set up my, my organization for? And if I trade back to, let's say, six to the Raiders or, or even three to the Giants and I'm able to get those, I can still get it. Maybe if it's. Maybe it's not Abdul Carter or Travis Hunter, but I'm still getting a good football player. Let's throw up that top 10 or the top 12 prospects in this class. Here's the updated top 12 as I have it. Got to fill in a couple of those jerseys numbers. It's not, it's not unlike me to be missing a couple jersey numbers. We'll get those. At this point, we're about to shift focus from the College Football Playoff to. To the NFL draft. But Travis Hunter, Abdul Carter. Right. But then there's still Mason Graham at defensive tackle for Michigan. Also Michigan, Will Johnson, the cornerback. There's still pass rushers, Mikel Williams, Jalen Walker, you go. And there's more beyond that, right? Talk about Pierce at Tennessee, Scorton from Texas A and M. You talk about there's a running back to get a little bit later in the first who's an. It looks like an absolute star. You've got offensive tackles a little bit further down. It's not a great tackle class. But if I trade down, get a second this year, get a first next year, you know, get multiple picks and can get an offensive tackle like Josh Connerly that I believe in. Kelvin Banks. We've talked about Will Campbell getting a lot of love recently, by the way. Yeah, from.
- [60:48]
Mel Kiper Jr.
That's interesting.
- [60:48]
Todd McShay
From lsu, but I've got Shador Sanders and Cam Ward neck and neck, same grade, 91 grade, sitting at 11 and 12. Why am I taking that at number one overall? Now, that doesn't mean every. Tennessee might have Cam Ward at number one overall. And there's, there's talk that they, they may. Okay, yeah, but I'm with you. They may have. And, and, and the Giants may have Shador Sanders as their number two overall prospect or number one overall prospect. And there's talk that they may. But if I don't believe in those guys, how about I follow this blueprint of Philly Chiefs, Ravens recently, Detroit Bills recently, and start the process now, try to trade back. If not, get my edge, get a defensive lineman. You know what I mean? Start building a profile for my team and, and make this the first pick of the new regime. We're going to be physical. We're going to get after your ass. We're going to, we're going to, we're going to load up on defensive prospects early. We're going to get pass rushers, we're going to get DBs that can cover these guys in the league. I'll get my quarterback sooner or later. I'll get my quarterback and I'm going to keep taking swings, free agency, bringing, you know, some retreads if I have to draft one. But I'm going to put myself in position as an organization with two number ones next year if I can get it. If there's a quarterback next year that I love. If we see the development in Nussmeier, Garrett Nussmeier from lsu, if we see the development in Carson Beck, you know, who or whoever rises, you know, to the top, maybe I'm in position next year to get a guy that I truly believe in and I package those picks, move up and go get that guy. Just like Kansas City did, just like Buffalo did.
- [62:32]
Mel Kiper Jr.
And again, this is why. Yeah, this is why. It's another example of why you need the, you need the support and just the support of your ownership. You need to go. Be able to go to your ownership and be like, look, man, I know you've seen what happens with the commanders and they've turned this thing around in a year and I wish we were in a position to do that. The stars aren't aligned like that for us. This is our plan. It's going to take a minute. Understand that there's going to be some struggles going forward, but we have a really good plan to turn this organization around in the right way and not have that, you know, that year where we're just going to go, you know, 10 and 7 and be a wild card team because we got, you know, all. Everything fell in place for us. We're going to be, we're building a long term competitor here. And if you can get ownership to be like, I understand what they're doing and they should get two to three years of, of trying to build this thing out. It's. It's important that you have that kind of support from the ownership group.
- [63:23]
Todd McShay
Just looking at Tucker, one of our producers, notes he must. Is Tucker a Raiders fan? All I see is commitment to excellence. Just win, baby. What else? I mean, you had a whole production meeting without me, man. Freedom to roll. Where do you want to go, brother?
- [63:40]
Mel Kiper Jr.
That was the most important part of it, man. That was the most interesting stuff to us. I mean, there is so much stuff that we're going to be getting into. You know, there's so much stuff in the bag for the upcoming, you know, we've got the, we've got the College Football Playoff, the national championship preview coming up on Thursday. There's so much stuff to get into there. We're gonna start getting. After that, I Mean, we got the reaction show on Monday night, then we're gonna get into the Senior Bowl. I think we're having Jim Nagy on the director of the Senior Bowl. That's going to be awesome.
- [64:07]
Todd McShay
Look at you, pro. You're, you're a pro now. You're promoing this thing, wrapping it up. There's a lot of stuff, a little bit. Why don't you give a, a, a rate, review, subscribe type speech for us too. Come on, come on.
- [64:21]
Mel Kiper Jr.
I don't have that down yet. Hit like and submit. Hit like and subscribe. If you like us. If you don't like us. I don't know what the whole spiel is. I know you got it down.
- [64:29]
Todd McShay
I don't have it down. I just tell people I feel like a scumbag, an absolute scumbag, begging for, it's like begging for friends. So if, if you do like the show, please subscribe. Please click that like button. I, I, I've been, I've been saying the last couple weeks, like seeing kind of the numbers and the people forget the numbers even like the most fun I've had in a while is, is getting on that, the chat during our live show the other night after the, after the Cotton bowl and just talking to people and like getting everyone going like, this is fun. We're, we're building something here. So if you, if you've enjoyed any of it, please do click a couple buttons for us and make sure that you hang around with us. As Mensch alluded to and did a brilliant job of. We will be back on Thursday. We're going to preview the College Football Playoff. We're going to do a whole breakdown there. I'm sure there'll be some draft news between now and then and we'll get to it as well. So many moving parts in the NFL right now. And then what is it? Monday night, January 20, reaction show. And, and right now you're going to hear it here. I don't care what's going on. I don't care if it's a 30 point blowout. And FanDuel thinks it might be close to 10, 10 plus point blowout. Five minutes left in that game. We're coming on, but it's just more fun. We get the energy going. I get like, you can watch, you could be doing two things. Everyone does it now. Everyone's watching their, their TV and watching a game and they're on their screens. So come join us with 5 minutes left and then right, you know, immediately following. We'll just we'll stay on the air and we'll do a full recap of that of the College Football Playoff. That's and that's a wrap. And like you said, men, after that, like, here we go, here we go. You know, draft season got Nagy on. We're getting ready. We're going the Senior Bowl. We're going to be there all week. We're going to get a bunch of different interviews, put them in the, in the, in the tank, but more so reacting to what's going on. The Senior bowl, we're gonna have access unlike any other outside of like the, the broadcast group. We'll be on the field. We'll be hosting the show. We'll have, you know, we'll have show people coming by the show saying hello. It's going to be a lot of fun that week. First time we've done it and we've been going there doing the same thing for shoot 99 was my first one. So like 25 years or so. That's why you see a couple of gray hairs in this beard. But for the first time ever, we're going to do it this way and we're going to do it our way and hopefully everyone will enjoy that with us. So until Thursday, hope you enjoyed it. Hopefully we've provided a little blueprint, but, you know, doing our best. Talk to you soon. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.orgchatinconnecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland, hope is here. Visit Gambling Helpline ma.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny in New.