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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Of our seven part series is here. It's building the board the 2027 quarterback class and today we've got an interesting one. Damond Williams Jr. From Washington versus Drew Mester maker transfer from North Texas to Oklahoma State and there's just 287 days I had to look down in my notes to make sure. 287 days until the NFL draft. You good Mitch?
- [00:31]
B
I'm great man.
- [00:32]
A
Oh my favorite beat Tuck. This episode is presented by EA Sports College Football 27 where you can engineer your team the way you want. And if you want the full football experience, try the MVP bundle. I'm already getting pressured from the boys in this house. We gotta get it. We gotta get it right. Well I'm gonna cave. You Get College Football 27 Madden NFL 27 Deluxe Edition rewards in both games to help you go from campus legend to NFL superstar Ms. Make your rise with the MVP bundle available now, conditions and restrictions apply. CEA.com games EA Sports College Football College Football 27 game disclaimers for details. We tried to pair up all these quarterbacks and have some kind of link right. It was like Arch versus Dante QB1, QB2 who's going to be QB1. In the very beginning it was saying versus Car the Blue Blood programs, Red Shirt sophomores last year, second year starters we did Seller Sorsby. Very similar type of of quarterback prospect in terms of still raw developing throughout it. There's been kind of a tie that binds. Can't find one with Mesta Maker and Demond Williams.
- [02:16]
B
Wait, I was like how did he do it this time? How do you link these two now you didn't even try.
- [02:20]
A
I mean Mesta Maker is transferring from North Texas to Oklahoma State. Was a red shirt sophomore last year similar to Carr and saying but it's a transfer opportunity that he earned through a sensational season at North Texas. He's a big bigger pocket passer. We'll get into all the nuances of his game and then you get Demon Williams who's been in Washington for a few years and has continued to develop and he's mobile and he's undersized and he's all all the things that you would expect from an explosive dual threat quarterback. Right. But they happen to be the last two remaining in terms of quarterbacks this makes 14 now Mensch and we'll get into the grades at the end see if we have any surprises where they would where these two will wind up on our board of 14 quarterbacks that we're doing in this Building the board. This series has been awesome, man. It's been fun. So. So let's just dive right in, right?
- [03:19]
B
Yeah, let's go.
- [03:21]
A
I ask you this question every time we start and I'm going to do it again for the seventh straight time. You got done with mester maker, you got done with Williams. What was your biggest takeaway?
- [03:32]
B
It is. It were this deep in the series and they are very different players. So I had a hard time coming up with a big picture one. I'm going to focus on Demond Williams Jr. And kind of give away some stuff here, but this is what I'm going to go with. The mon Williams Jr. To me is a classic example of a quarterback who I love watching play at the college level, but I'm not sure how this translates to the NFL.
- [03:56]
A
I'm different than you, man.
- [03:58]
B
Really good. That's great.
- [04:00]
A
My biggest takeaway is if there's a heat map, if there's a heat map for all these quarterbacks, it's a lot more red and it's hotter than I thought. I had an expectation that I was going to be similar to you when I went and popped in the tape. We've both watched him on tv, we've both prepared for different games. We've studied enough to understand who he is. But when I sat down and watched his Tape after watching 12 other quarterbacks, I've got him in a different place than I expected. So let's just dive in. I do, man, I do.
- [04:32]
B
I can't wait.
- [04:33]
A
Strengths, take it wherever you want.
- [04:36]
B
I mean, he's an unbelievable runner. I think he's electric with, I mean, with his ability to extend plays. He's twitchy. He's a former championship 4 by 100 high school sprinter. You see that on tape. He can, he's, he's. Not only is he a naturally talented runner in terms of the quickness, speed, ability to make people miss, he's instinctive. I like how he hugs his blocks on design. Quarterback runs and then again extends plays really well and makes some highlight reel type plays when he has to go off schedule and make an off platform throw. So it's the mobility to me.
- [05:13]
A
Yeah, for demand. Let's just give, let's give a little background. Right? 5, 5, 10 and a half is what was measured by scouts in the spring. 195 pounds. Looking at a Manning passing academy, I would say probably he's over 200, but we'll, we'll see. But he's in that range, right? They've got him listed at 4 6. Like get out of here. These conservative 40 times.
- [05:38]
B
No. Yeah, I mean they've all been conservative, huh?
- [05:40]
A
Yeah. Oh my gosh, he's a flat out burner. And compared to messamaker who's a 48 like it just. No, he's, he's in the. I'll be surprised if he ever runs a 40 that if he's not in the 44 range of things. I said a few years for Williams Jr. At Washington. This would be his third year making it a few years. Shows up in 2024 as a true freshman. Winds up playing in a few games. He's a four star recruit coming out of Arizona. Played and he actually played it in all 13 games in 2024 as a true freshman. Started two of them, completed 78%, showed a lot of promise. 944 passing yards, just one interception compared to eight touchdown. And then took over as the full time starter this past season. Right. Started all 13 games over 3, 000 passing yards, 25 touchdowns, just eight picks. Also ran for 611 and six scores. So that's kind of the backdrop on, on Williams. Okay, here's what here like the mobility is obvious. I, I equated it to. I'm equating is. We're in the process of building. I'm equating his athletic traits as essential focusing. And I know everyone gets so pissed off when you say oh, he's a wide receiver. He's. I'm not saying he's a quarterback. And if you hear me out on all of this like I'm higher, I
- [07:05]
B
will say the same thing. By the way, I'm not. Let's not get this twisted by like
- [07:09]
A
there he is absolute. I'm saying when he takes off running or he's scrambling, I view him almost as like a slot receiver that caught the ball in a little bit of space base.
- [07:21]
B
I agree running back, but same thing.
- [07:24]
A
Not like this 43 guy on the outside. But he's a 44 speed runner. Electrifying, you know, like the, the elusiveness, the sharp cuts. Just a feel as an open field runner. He has a great feel. Okay.
- [07:39]
B
There were a couple times you, I thought to myself, is he gonna be able to turn the corner here? And the next thing you know he's sprinting down his side.
- [07:44]
A
He's got this gear, man.
- [07:46]
B
Yeah.
- [07:48]
A
So there's that. But here's as a passer, why I was like, huh, there's a little more here than I expected. Quick trigger, lot of energy on the intermediate throws. Yes. There are, there are throws that he makes that are off target and, and they're not where they need to be. But then I kind of studied and it's. It. There's. Sometimes it's on the run and I think things are happening too fast. Feet are here are like. And I think that's a byproduct of some of the throws. And the Maryland tape was his worst tape that I watched. Surprisingly. I actually liked his Ohio State tape. Even though they scored. They. It was 246 of the final.
- [08:34]
B
They.
- [08:34]
A
He drove them down the field. He did some really impressive things against.
- [08:39]
B
Better than I expected.
- [08:40]
A
Yeah, way better than I expected. The, they just, they didn't convert drives. Okay. The, the Washington State tape for me was like if, if I, if I'm, if I'm a scout and I'm walking in the GM's office and he's like, give me one tape because you're, you're pounding the table for this guy. Give me the one tape. That's his. That's his like best of tape is Washington State. I like just the running abilities on full display. I thought his ball placement was impressive. Intermediate over the middle, some outside the number stuff. But I, I think he's a little bit late sometimes in the timing with the deep ball, but he actually throws a really good deep ball from. I mean, I just like, I appreciated where some of the placement was on, on the deep ball. Like, I think as a first year starter last year and a guy who's five, ten and a half, who's known for his mobility and it's featured heavily, I saw a lot of promise in the way he throws. And I want to remind people.
- [09:42]
B
Here we go.
- [09:44]
A
I want to remind people of like what Jalen Hurts was as a passer in his first year as a starter. I want to remind people of what Lamar Jackson was in his first year as a starter throwing the football. So I'm not saying he's going to be one of those guys, but I saw more strengths in his game as a passer. A compact balls out, hitting some spots and, and then the escapability, extending plays. I don't know. Here's my thing with some of these quarterbacks, and this is the tricky part, Mitch, because we lived in a, in a, in a society, a scouting society for so long. We both graduated University of Richmond in 1999.
- [10:27]
B
Don't tell people that, dude.
- [10:28]
A
Fine. We both got into this thing in the early 2000s, right. I jumped right. I was actually starting with Gary Horton in, in 98 going into 99 in A.
- [10:40]
B
People don't know this. McShay was like Harry Potter. There are these, these stairs at University of Richmond in these apartments that have a closet underneath the stairs, and people would be partying and McShay would be in the closet watching tape. Like it just, just a maniac.
- [10:55]
A
My senior year, I, I told. I told Matt Davis and, and Baker and, and I forget who the other. My other roommate was at that year.
- [11:05]
B
Winninger.
- [11:05]
A
Ryan? No, Wilmo. Adam Wiliamowski, who's just up here. His son is looking at Ivy League schools. I don't know how that man could produce an Ivy League, but I'm here for it. He must have a brilliant wife. Anyway. Long, short. Yes, I used to. My senior year, I got this opportunity to help write some articles of Sporting News, and I was watching tape in a closet in the University apartments at Richmond. But my point in all of this is it was all pocket passing. It was. Yeah, the mobility wasn't a factor. It was about mechanics, reads, progressions, all those things.
- [11:44]
B
Right?
- [11:45]
A
And now I'm watching these quarterbacks in such a different light. And I told you, Mahomes was the first guy where it's like, give me the results, give me the special traits and we can develop that. Because Josh Allen wasn't Josh Allen at Wyoming. He had the best arm maybe that I've ever seen. Jamarcus Russell was up there and we saw what that did. But, but you combine his mobility and his arm, but he was like broadside of the barn, missing sometimes, you know, throwing, trying to hit water off the boat sometimes, but developed. And I'm obviously exaggerating, but there were some. There were. There was a reel of really bad.
- [12:20]
B
It was a concern. It was a legitimate.
- [12:22]
A
It was. It was a concern, but still loved his traits, but was still kind of stuck in the accuracy and progressions and mental makeup make the quarterback. And if you don't excel in those two areas, you're not going to be Brady, you're not going to be Manning, you're not going to be Breeze, you're not, you know, and so, and so the transition started with like, Mahomes and Josh Allen. And I always mentioned Jalen Hurts because I didn't. I didn't see it with Jalen at Alabama and I saw a little bit more at Oklahoma and to see where he is. But it also takes good circumstances. Mahomes had him had the year with Alex Smith. Had. Had. Had. Andy Reid was a different human being and especially a different quarter. Not human being. He was A different quarterback mentally than he was his second year in the NFL, than he was coming out of Texas Tech. Josh Allen and Brian Dable and they kind of the mobility early on and had some struggles but worked through it. Jalen Hurts grinding, like notorious for it. And yeah, everyone wants to point to all the things with the Eagles and the. There's frustration every year and all that, but Jalen Hurts was like showing up with the briefcase every morning. Like, there's legendary stories about when he's getting to the facility, when he's leaving. So, like, it takes circumstances and it takes special work ethic. Let's just like a commitment to this game that is like beyond ocd. It's obsessive.
- [13:50]
B
Yes.
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A
And so we've got a bunch of months now to drill into who's Demon Williams.
- [13:56]
B
That's gonna be a big part of this. A big part. I. We have more common ground here than you think. Yeah.
- [14:02]
A
And I want to get Jed Fish on and I want to get some of these coaches on to talk about the human being and what they see. And yes, I know they're all going to. Well, he's the best. He's first in, last out, all that. But you can tell sometimes the difference in some of the specific things they say. And it's like the BS Reader and all that. So I'm not ruling this cat out because I saw more in his passing skills. And we've talked about some of these mobile quarterbacks from Sellers. Lenore Sellers of South Carolina. Arch Manning, Texas. Nico I am Aliava UCLA Swordsby. Call it Texas Tech. Call it Cincinnati can't play this season. Who am I missing? I feel like I'm missing one more. But. But there's a bunch of. There's a bunch of mobile quarterbacks that we've discussed, and you can make an argument he's the most explosive, dynamic runner of all of them. You can't coach that.
- [15:03]
B
You could make the argument. I wouldn't. I wouldn't be. I would be on the other side of that argument for you.
- [15:09]
A
Rank him for me. Mobility.
- [15:11]
B
I think the guy you're most afraid of, Sellers, is. Is by far the scariest guy. I think that Arch isn't as twitchy, but the straight line speed.
- [15:24]
A
Demon's mobility, when you combine all those traits is ahead of Arch for me.
- [15:28]
B
Okay, that's. I got that argument I'm more comfortable with. I just. Sellers. I can't. I can't get there with you.
- [15:35]
A
Okay, so he's the second. Even if we agreed he.
- [15:38]
B
He is definitely up there. He is definitely up. The reason I ask you this is because I think this comes into. When you have a quarterback this size, you're going to compare him to other quarterbacks that are similar, similar frames. Right. Do you think, let's go here. Do you think he's as dangerous a runner, as athletic, as explosive as Kyler Murray was at Oklahoma?
- [15:59]
A
He's twitchier. I think he's twitchier.
- [16:02]
B
Kyler more side to side juice.
- [16:04]
A
Kind of a deal is what you said.
- [16:05]
B
Yep, yep, yep.
- [16:06]
A
I think, I think Kai Kyler is faster on a straight line.
- [16:11]
B
I agree. And quicker. But yes.
- [16:15]
A
All right, so let's get to Drew Messemaker who's kind of been lost in the shuffle. What are you strengths for him?
- [16:20]
B
Former, you know, walk on, gets a starting job in North Texas. I really thought this kid showed a great grasp of the offense and was more, more developed as a quarterback and understanding concepts and how to attack coverage than I expected. Now look, the inexperience still shows at times. There's certain rotations he didn't read well. He. He threw into coverage a couple times. I'm not saying it was perfect, but he could get to his backside read. He knew where he wanted to go with the ball. There were times that it certainly looked like to me he was setting protections and making changes at the line. This guy's brain is pretty developed, I think for a first year starter and I think if I want it to be obvious, I could talk about the arm strength. I think he's got a live arm. But I think to me what really stood out that I wasn't really expect acting was how smart he is.
- [17:11]
A
Yeah, he has a, he has a really good control and he. I was just looking up the name. Yeah, he was, he was stuck behind other talented quarterbacks. Apparently backed up Braden Buchanan and Deuce Adams at the position at Austin's Vandergrift High School.
- [17:31]
B
Yeah.
- [17:32]
A
And so he kind of like barely played quarterback before. Yeah, it's a wild story.
- [17:38]
B
It's a great story.
- [17:40]
A
It's a great story. He made one start. This is mess to maker one start. Five appearances in 2024, his red shirt year and then he started all 14 this past year. He completed 69 of his passes, almost four, 400 yards, 34 touchdowns, nine picks. Yeah. He won the Bullsworth trophy, AAC offensive player of the year and then goes and transfers to Oklahoma State. Right. With coach.
- [18:07]
B
So yeah, that's a big deal. By the way, we. Do you want to get into the head coach at this Point or should we wait a second?
- [18:12]
A
Sure, sure.
- [18:13]
B
Head coach. Head coach Eric Morris, who comes over with him from North Texas has been at Texas Tech. He's been at Washington. So he's worked with Matier and Cammore to Washington. He worked with Mahomes in Mayfield, Baker Mayfield at Texas Tech. This guy's been with.
- [18:29]
A
Was he, was he at SMU too?
- [18:32]
B
I will check. I did not.
- [18:34]
A
Okay.
- [18:34]
B
I don't think he was at smu. He was not.
- [18:36]
A
Okay. All right.
- [18:37]
B
He was not. So he was incarnate. Were incarnate. Ward with. With Ward, went to Washington with Ward. Mattier was. Did not play that year, but he recruited him and had him on that roster for a year. And then at Texas Tech he was, you know, he got to work with Mahomes and Mayfield. So this is a dude that knows how to identify talent at quarterback, how to develop talent at quarterback. So you know, that's a. It'll be interesting to see the kind of progress he can get in year two out of this kid going against better talent. But I would argue it's not, this is not the Big Ten of the sec and he's going to have better talent at receivers. Some of the receivers at North Texas, I was, you know, they weren't the, this wasn't the best roster. Let's just say that.
- [19:22]
A
Yeah, agreed. I mean it's a shotgun based offense. A lot of, a lot of, you know, after the snap a lot of four receiver. Whether it's four receivers look, but a lot of four routes going out. He. His strength is sitting back in the pocket as a tall six three two six three and a quarter. 215 pound quarterback is pre snap reads. Kind of figuring out the leverage of defensive backs, reading the coverage pre post, finding the right receiver, seeing the whole field, all of it progression and then, and then hitting the. And. And making the right decision ball out. Pretty accurate passer. Right.
- [20:01]
B
Led the FBS in passing yards per game and passing yards per attempt, by the way.
- [20:05]
A
Yeah, they relied on him. And like you said, like for a guy who didn't play a ton in high school and played limited as a, as a red shirt freshman to come in and have that command and, and he can kind of snap. He doesn't have an elite arm.
- [20:21]
B
I like his arm, but it's not elite. Yeah, it's a two.
- [20:24]
A
You know, one is exceptional on our grading scale. Five is marginal. Three is right in the middle. It's a two. It's good. Right. And I like it and I like the way he can Kind of like sometimes the defenders hanging on him or he doesn't have his feet proper, he can kind of just flick it and get the ball there.
- [20:41]
B
Yes.
- [20:42]
A
So. So that those things are all good. I'm. I'm really excited to see him. Like you said, in a similar system, new weapons, but also new level of competition. It's not like we're not saying big ten or sec, but definitely a step up. Right? Yeah. That taller pocket passer, not a statue. We'll get into some of the weakness and all. Not a statue. Competitive mobility. Think about all the things we said about Drew Aller and his mobility. He like, he kind of not the fastest, not the twitchiest, all those things, but like there were times where you need a first down and he kind of felt it and you. He's. He's got good like coordination and balance, but I think he's a little, he's got a little bit more juice than alert. I mean, I know, yeah, he's.
- [21:33]
B
Oh, I, yeah, he's a straight line guy, but every time he ran I was like, where did that come from?
- [21:38]
A
Right, Right.
- [21:39]
B
Yeah. Like, why are we not doing that occasionally? Not. I'm not saying that's going to be the strength of his game. It's never going to be the strength. But when he, I, in my notes, this guy's, he's. I thought he was a statue. I thought he was a pocket passer, just strictly a pocket passer. And then he would there. Then all of a sudden out of nowhere he takes off and I'm like, oh, he moves way better than I anticipated. Not great, but way better than I thought.
- [22:00]
A
Same in writing the, the preseason report that we were basically our foundation that we'll continue to build on the pre season preseason report, I was explaining to people all the things he wasn't from a mobility standpoint. And then he kept making me go back to my notes and kind of. And that's why I started with the he's not a statue. Because if you read my notes in kind of the early parts of it, I was like, pocket passer, not the most agile, you know. But then I started seeing more and more on tape where he, he was effective when the opportunity presented itself. Right. So again, very different quarterbacks you get.
- [22:39]
B
Demand couldn't be more different.
- [22:42]
A
And everything's like. And messamakers back there like four receiver sets back in the backfield. Pre snap decisions, ball, snap shotgun. Let's make a good read. Come to one to two, maybe three balls out, occasionally takes off and runs and Gets a first down because he's kind of competitive, coordinated, he's athletic, but he's not this burner and he's not the things that make demand so intriguing.
- [23:06]
B
Right, right.
- [23:07]
A
Weaknesses. Whether it's demand or Messamaker, take it wherever you want.
- [23:12]
B
Let's go with Messamaker because I'm just, I'm just thinking about it now and you kind of hinted at already he's not an escape artist. I do think he does a decent job of navigating the pocket. I think he can move around a little bit and buy some time. The problem is there's that aspect of it and then what happens next. I think his decision making and his accuracy really start to erode when you get him to move his feet a little bit. I think that's a, that's a problem for him. So that would be the number one thing that stuck out to me. And also, even though he doesn't have an elite arm, we do have a little bit of another power pitcher who needs to develop a change up situation here where some of the trajectory in the arc on some of these passes. I want to see, I want to see get a little better.
- [23:52]
A
Yeah, I second everything you're saying. In addition to if he's going to be this guy, I got to see a big step and I want to remind people he's just a red shirt junior. My guess is he's got two years at Oklahoma State and I think that that will be best for.
- [24:12]
B
I agree with that.
- [24:14]
A
Right. Considering how little he. I talked about the national list, the Blessedo list, the preseason rankings this year they were much more aggressive in terms of including guys like a Jeremiah Smith or quarterbacks. But it would be third year playing, right? Third year. Like after two years of eligibility they're willing to kind of expand the field which in my, I don't know, 26 years of getting my hands on national list plus the list. It was always like these are guys are the true seniors, the ones who grow the Senior bowl. Well the whole thing's changed. Like Senior bowl takes underclassmen so. And we're nil and transfer portal and all those things. So they've wisely expanded the field. But Julian saying as a red shirt sophomore Last year and first year starter C.J. carr is a redshirt sophomore, first year starter and mesta maker same deal. Red shirt sophomore, first year starter last year. None of those, those three names appear on, on those lists. Okay. And I think rightfully so smart. So. So I say all that because if he's going to be this guy, which he is. I want to see. I want to see the advancement because now he's going into a second year as a starter. Right. Didn't play a lot of ball in the past, but now it's time to the. The old rinse, refine, repeat. I there. He's so good at making reads and so good at controlling the offense and doing those things. Now he's got to take it to a graduate level because I can't have those two interceptions. What was the South Florida game? 501 first quarters. An example. Didn't see the linebacker.
- [25:50]
B
Yeah.
- [25:50]
A
And I got. I gotta believe with a little bad. You know, a bad one.
- [25:54]
B
Yeah.
- [25:55]
A
And then there was another one late. The second interception in that game wasn't this. It was a little bit about. He was kind of throw pressure coming. Trying to remember it back pressure coming.
- [26:06]
B
A little bit more of a placement issue than a decision issue as we get into. I think.
- [26:09]
A
Yeah. But there also was a robber like safety right behind, trying to fit it between two defenders. The ball placement was a little off. Probably didn't see that. That safety behind as well. So just let's advance. Let's be great. Not good. Let's be great with Reed's decisions. Although that's what he needs to be.
- [26:30]
B
To be. Yes.
- [26:31]
A
If this skill set's going to work in the NFL as a starter or a capable backup that can come in and win some games. Right. We've been doing like, how does it translate? I think we kind of covered that well. No, sorry, we didn't. Weaknesses. Give me your weaknesses, Williams. Yeah. What am I doing?
- [26:54]
B
I want to say this. I want to.
- [26:55]
A
Because he has no weaknesses. In my eyes, he's perfect.
- [27:01]
B
Liar. And you've never. You. You have to pick apart anything you've ever evalued in your. There's always a flaw, man. I want to echo some of the things you said really quickly. I think with Demon Williams Jr. Hits his back foot and he throws over the middle and the ball is out on time in rhythm. I saw some really nice stuff on throwing over the middle of the field. I also thought on some of these throws, when you're anticipating some of these deep crossers to clear zone looks and the receivers running away from him. He made a couple nice touch throws from within the pocket that were really encouraging. I thought that was the most fascinating thing you said is that you saw some things in the pocket that were encouraging. And maybe this is just a different kind of. I mean this has popped up before with Some of these, these quarterbacks most obviously Sam Levitt. I'm encouraged by that stuff. I don't see enough of it. I don't. And I feel like I've seen this movie before where we have a dynamic, smaller quarterback who you just love what he does at the college level and make some of these. These throws that you just are like, well, here. Here's five throws, men. Here's five throws. Look at what he can do. And it's not really about what you can do, it's about what you do consistently. Now, if he's able to do that and take the next step, I'm going to be excited about anyone else about Damond Williams Jr. But at this point, I'm seeing there's too much of the. I need chaos, I need to extend plays. I am going to take off and run if my first read isn't there. All of those things jump out to me as. As concerning of this hasn't actually translated that well to the NFL. I mean, Johnny Manziel was awesome to watch at Texas A and M Kyler Murray was awesome to watch at Oklahoma. And the very key thing about both those guys that I think is interesting again about what you brought up is we do have some time to get into DeMond Williams Junior's character because I think both of those players, I mean, one more so than the other, obviously, but have had questions about whether or not they were willing to put in the time to what it takes to be truly great. And maybe that's what Damon Williams Jr. Has that will get him over the hump and get him there, because he does do some really nice things from the pocket. I understand that. It's not consistent enough for me. There's too many misses, there's too many times where he wants to take off and run. I don't. That's my biggest concern is like, how does this. How does it translate?
- [29:19]
A
We saw it so differently, man.
- [29:21]
B
I know.
- [29:22]
A
Maybe I had a lower bar come. Like, I'm watching that Washington State game and he's. He's like, yeah, he'll run if he needs to, but he's hanging in there and he's going through his reads, he's doing it quickly. There's like, there's a tempo to what he's doing and he's hitting spots and then Ohio State. I'm expecting this is going to be a disaster, this defense. Yeah, I have a crystal ball. Right. I have the. I have hindsight in my favor and I know 24 to 6 is the final and he's hanging in there and he's making throws and the protection's not great. And I, I don't. Like, there's. There's, like the deep out throw that he's making there. There's crossers. There's down the middle of the field. There's left rail shots. I, I just. I saw it different. I was so encouraged. I hear you now. The Maryland tape was like.
- [30:14]
B
The organ tape wasn't great either. I mean, like, tape was.
- [30:17]
A
Yeah, but. But he hung and I watched that and it was like. But he hung in there and he did some things in that.
- [30:23]
B
Oh, he's so tough, dude.
- [30:24]
A
There's no question about.
- [30:26]
B
Yeah.
- [30:28]
A
And. And. And Manziel had substance abuse issues and. And was disappearing at the Manning passing Academy. Wasn't showing up to meetings. I hear NFL, all this stuff.
- [30:40]
B
Yeah, that's. Yeah.
- [30:41]
A
And Kyler with the video games and the commitment and the contract put like. But that's why it's interesting that we.
- [30:48]
B
We got time to get into this kid and there's no reason to believe he won't be an absolute workaholic. I'm not commenting at all about what it is, but, like, until we have that full picture, until I see him do some things more consistently. And again, this is.
- [31:02]
A
You are.
- [31:03]
B
I'm surprised because if you had asked us before this process where each one of us stood, I would be more of a guy who would be more of a. Not. Benefit of the doubt. I guess that's not the right way of saying it. Projecting. You're seeing where this player's gone and you're. And I feel like you're making expectations about where they're going to go next. Whereas I'm more of a guy like, I haven't seen it yet. I need to see more.
- [31:25]
A
Maybe it's fair. I think the thing that I keep. I'm not beating around the bush to keep the thing I keep starting to reference or I keep referencing. And let's just, let's let's drill into it for a second. For so long, I was so obsessed with the mechanics of. And all the things that the NFL Films guy would come up. Guys would come up to Bristol and I could tell the. Where the ball's gonna go by where his foot was, where his footwork is and all that stuff. Right. I used to call him the NFL Films Biker Gang and like. And it was proven and it was. And it was effective. And then I talked about Mahomes and Josh Allen and Hertz and Lamar and all those Guys, right. The thing that's different now, and I don't think I finished. I want to make sure. The thing that's different now is I'm obsessed with. I can't coach that. It's a unique trait. It is something I can't coach. It is something special. It is dynamic. It scares me on defense. It breaks down my coverages. It breaks down my, my, my pass rush. I've got to have lanes. I've got to now rush properly. I've got to do it with discipline. I've got to have eyes forward. I can't turn in, man to man, this quarterback that keeps coming out. These kinds of quarterbacks and we're, we're talking about like five of them and potentially in with Emaliava and Sellers and Sorsby and Arch. All these guys we keep talking about and demand. I'm looking and we just said he's second most in term, maybe second best most dynamic athlete. And yes, he's five, ten and a half. I get it. I don't know. So you've got that. And then I see someone who, who's with Jed Fish. Like, I know Jed. I've hung out a lot with Jed. I've talked to you. Like, he's been around a lot of really good quarterbacks and has developed them. And I'm watching like what he's learning from Jed in just, you know, a short, probably year and a half. It'll be two, two plus years by the time he takes the field. I see advancement in his game and I see a skill set that like right now in the NFL, it's, it seems like it can work. And so I just don't want to. This cat out.
- [33:41]
B
You think he has. You, you think he's elite? You, you think there's things that you have that you can. I don't, I don't know, man. Like, I get that he's, he's really athletic. I don't think he's, he's historically an elite guy. And I would, I just think it's a dangerous game you're playing. I really do. Who are the successful quarterbacks in this league? I mean, you. Right now, there are guys like, you know, Lamar Jackson, which is funny because the, the ESPN rankings of Lamar Jackson. By the way, he's now the 39th best player in the league. I think that's crazy, but we'll get into that another time. That being said, there are guys that are elite. I would love to have a quarterback, but Sam Darnold just won the Super Bowl. I mean, the best quarterback in history in. He wasn't that long ago was Tom Brady. And there are guys like Jalen Hurts. Who's won a Super Bowl? Patrick Mahomes. What is Patrick Mahomes? You can't coach. He's magic. You can't coach magic. But there's no, like, it's not mobility.
- [34:35]
A
It's his, it's his instinct and ability to.
- [34:39]
B
Physical trait, though. That's not a physical trait.
- [34:43]
A
His, his arm is, is exceptional. And the way he can throw from different angles, yes, exceptional. But I watched him throw, I watched him throw a ball, submarine 60 yards in the air and hit a perfect spot at Texas. I totally, I'm not under, I'm not gonna, I'm not so gifted. It's like absurd. And it's just, and even though he's not fast and twitchy, is there more instinctive, effective? Like, there are very.
- [35:13]
B
Let me put it this way. Who's more talent? Who has more natural talent in terms of being an athletic, strong. All of those things. Anthony Richardson or Patrick Mahomes?
- [35:24]
A
Of course, Anthony Richardson. But what are we doing? If you want like True Serum, what scares me the most is the size. Because for, for every Russell Wilson, there's a bunch of these cats that don't work. And yes, I like, I'm going to give him a grade in a minute and you're going to see like, oh, he's still reasonable. Like, I'm not, I'm not elevating.
- [35:47]
B
That's the funniest part about this 1
- [35:49]
A
sellers 2 Mon Williams 3 yeah, right. I'm reasonable. But I want the audience to understand he's not just this running dual threat guy who's really cute in college. See, we're not that far off on him and NFL teams and like, like, you look at these preseason grades that I'm referencing and talking to different scouts and, and GMs and, and asking them for what their rankings are with positions. We try to do the way too early mock and try to kind of get more of a feel of what NFL teams before they get heavy in their process this fall, how they view them. Like, Daman's name's on all those lists. Demond's name is higher. Like, let's look at like, we got, we got, we got More and Arch, we got Sellers, Levitt, Sorsby, Emaliava and Williams ahead of Champ. I'm not saying these are right, right,
- [36:40]
B
Because I know you don't think they're all right.
- [36:42]
A
But I'm just, I'm just saying like I'm not alone in thinking, oh, you're not different from, from the other guys. I do want to say that like the mechanics like I see like I've talked about everyone now. It's, it's think about the golf swing versus the baseball swing. Right? The golf swing is compact. You're all here, it's there, it's down. And you're not bringing like when you go back with the club you're not, you're not bringing that knee in like a baseball where you're like sliding back. But at the end of the day the whole, the whole power base element is become the same. We've talked a lot about it this, this offseason. I think it's important to talk about these things now before we get in the season. Like I'm going to the M2QB camp. I'm going to arch to the Manning passing academ. Me, I'm talking to all like the, the, the QB country coaches and mobile. Like I'm, I'm, I'm getting access to on purpose because the quarterback position is being coached the same almost everywhere which is so different than what it used to be. And so I'm watching Demond and I'm. Then I'm watching a 1400 campers being coached the same thing at Manning Passing Academy from all over the country. And I'm watching M2QB when I go on Saturdays. And by the way they've got, they've got like Bork and Vargas guys who are going D1 like Virginia Tech and, and wherever, wherever Vargas. Vargas is going to be the, the, the best player of any position ever to come out of the state of Massachusetts. Got offers everywhere. He's that good at St. John's Prep. Okay. Working there. They're all doing the same stuff. Right. And it's, it's like this balance and it's, it's shooting the hip and the Release looks more 3/4 than ever before. It used to be.
- [38:25]
B
Yes.
- [38:25]
A
You know.
- [38:26]
B
Yeah.
- [38:26]
A
Now it's, it's here because the hip is driving it. The arm is just an extension of it and it's right.
- [38:33]
B
Yep.
- [38:34]
A
And you're finishing here like and then almost pulling the string back. I'm watching him and I'm seeing like when he's missing sometimes it's, it's the lean right. Instead of here it's the lean left longer stride and I should mention the stride is barely a stride.
- [38:58]
B
Right.
- [38:58]
A
It's kind of the short power based arm. And, and now I'm watching Him, he's kind of long striding on some of his misses and leaning and what does that do to your arm balls? Ball's gonna go high. Right?
- [39:12]
B
Right.
- [39:12]
A
So it's correctable. Stuff is my. And I know that's long winded and explanation but I think it's important to kind of fill people in on where the quarterback position is and for demand. I think like, like some of the misses are just correctable things and then the other misses, a lot of them are he's going 100 miles an hour. He's avoiding pressure. His offensive line isn't great. He's running and he's like, like literally sprinting north and just throwing and he rushes himself. So I'm fired up to see after another off season and he's been through his first year as a starter. Is there advancement in those areas? And if there are, I'm kind of. I'm, I'm. I'm going to be a backer, let's put it that way.
- [39:53]
B
What'd you give him for a grade? I want to know now. Now I need to know. Like you say, you're going to be a backer. Where. Where did you just give me his grade?
- [39:59]
A
89.
- [40:05]
B
Wow. This is the biggest, this is by far the biggest gap we're going to have.
- [40:10]
A
I gave him an 89 and I want to remind people. Let's just go through it real quick. It. I got these notes somewhere. Dante's about a 94, 95, he's number one. Sellers is a 93. 94, he's number two. I've got Levitt as a 93 is the number three quarterback. You've got him about four spots down. We both have car and arch like the 92 range. Right. Mensa is in 91. We both have Nico and Chamblisson right around the 90 range. That gives us seven quarterbacks. Then I've got, I've got this pocket or cluster or whatever grouping, bunch, whatever you want to call IT, tier of 88,89s with saying from Ohio State, Julian saying Brennan Sorsby and Demon Williams in there. And I would go saying Sourceby Williams. If you, if you're asking me to rank him, which I knew you were going to, so I'll just get out ahead of it. And that's a. And that's ahead of currently myava but I told you I think my Ava can make a huge leap this year. But he. And I've got my other like an 87 right behind him. Matier, like call it a 79 called an 80. But again, I, I don't know where we are with him. I'm encouraged by the mechanics I'm seeing. He's restructured his throwing. He's doing a lot more of the stuff I just explained and the arm angle is, is kind of is changed to relieve some of the stress that he, he was an arm thrower that somehow found a way like up in the air, this stuff to generate torque. But he was putting a lot of pressure on his body and it was leading to inconsistency with placement. If those mechanics that we saw at the Manning passing academy play out and, and he's the best version of himself, I think his grade could, could absolutely rise. But that would be ahead of myava matier master maker. We'll get to Hoover on Monday. Josh Hoover. Where do you have them?
- [42:04]
B
I gave him a 70.
- [42:06]
A
Oh God.
- [42:06]
B
I think, I think he's, I just don't think, I don't see elite in anything. I don't, I think he's a really good athlete. I don't think he's as good as Kyler Murray was as an athlete. Now. Remember Johnny, man? So we felt the same way about Johnny Manziel. Can we just talk about that? Like we felt like he was gonna, the idea that he was gonna go that early was Madison. I don't think the NFL is really going to look at a 510, 195 pound quarterback who isn't polished enough at this point as a box. I actually think 70 is, is that is, I mean is fair. And I understand what the national scout. That's an, that was an eye opening grade for me for the national scout to give him that high of a grade.
- [42:46]
A
Oh, I don't, I don't care about that. I'm just saying.
- [42:48]
B
But it's just, it's just something that popped out to me. When you look at the list, I just don't, I don't know what the, what's the pathway here. Who are the 5, 10, 195 pound quarterbacks in the NFL have done really well. And again we could talk about the traits and about how you things that you can't coach, but I would go back to, okay. We've seen players with traits that are elite and why did they fail and why did they succeed? Who were the guys exceeded? Who are the guys that failed? And Demon Williams, like, do we think he's that good of a pocket passer that he's going to be able to overcome his lack of size? I don't know man, like, I just don't. I just. I'm not comfortable with the path. I'm not comfortable with the.
- [43:28]
A
How big is Bryce Young?
- [43:31]
B
Bryce. I'll pull it up right now. And I'm.
- [43:36]
A
I'm not comparing their pack, their passing ability demands currently to Bryce Young's, but I am saying part of what made Bryce Young so intriguing was some of the magic and his ability to create. Obviously I'm not comparing these two because people are going to go crazy on them. I'm just saying.
- [43:52]
B
5, 10 and an eighth, 204 pounds. Right. So roughly the same size and little.
- [43:59]
A
I think Williams one is more dynamic athletically. I think Demon might maybe has a little more. I know Demont has a little bit more juice in his arm.
- [44:11]
B
He's nowhere near the, the passer that Bryce.
- [44:14]
A
No, I understand. I'm just saying it like, like it can work and it typically can work with guys who are more explosive as a runner. Kyler had like. I get that Kyler's career as the number one overall pick is not what you want, but Kyler also, like there was always something with the video games commitment, working contract and Arizona. News flash for you, the picking in the top five every year, man, it's not like it feels like it or top 10 or like, like they haven't exactly supported him brilliantly. Okay. I'm just saying I'm not really ready
- [44:53]
B
to call Bryce Young the success story that maybe you are either just to say that too.
- [44:58]
A
No, but an 89 grade. Resilience. Yeah, but what number pick was he for Carolina? I'm just saying in 89 grade, I'm giving him some. Maybe he's a late first, but I'm giving him a grade that's equivalent to a second round. Much more importantly with our grading, it's about a backup quarterback that you think can develop because there's some stuff there that is highly intriguing. That if we can get the best version of him and he keeps developing, maybe he could be a starter in the league. That's what you draft an 89 grade for. I gave 89 grades to Drew Brees. Would, would have been the equivalent. Drew Brees was like our first year. I don't know what grade it was higher than where he was taken. Derek Carr was in that range. Like, like, you know what I mean? Jackson Dart was what, a 91. So like, I don't know. I'm just saying I'm giving him an 89 knowing full well there has to be improvement. And I want to see the progression here. But he's. He's more gifted and has more to offer the NFL than I even was close to expecting when I really dug into his tape. What about Medfield? Let's go ahead.
- [46:08]
B
Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, we'll move on.
- [46:09]
A
We'll move on.
- [46:11]
B
Rooting for the kid because I love watching him play, but I just can't go there in terms of a grade.
- [46:15]
A
I didn't think there was a world in which we would spend a summer where. Where you. Where I was kinder and. And saw more.
- [46:21]
B
This is so off script for me. I'm having a hard time.
- [46:24]
A
So off script. Your grades are sweetheart grades in the summer and then you become usually mentioned, get depressed.
- [46:31]
B
They're all going to be. All the guards are top 50 picks. Just so you know.
- [46:35]
A
All right, quickly. What mess to make your grade?
- [46:38]
B
I gave him an 82. I really like him, man.
- [46:42]
A
I know.
- [46:42]
B
I'm really, I'm really high on his ability to. I think he's got a strong arm and good 82 is. I mean, middle of day two. But there are things that I'm really excited about watching him do. I think he's got a quarterback coach who's going to develop them. So, like, I have him in the back. He's on the top 10 of these quarterbacks. I mean, he's. He didn't crack the top 10. So let's not get carried away. But in the middle of the second round, you're taking a kid who's, you know, 6, 3, 2, 15, he's got a strong arm, who makes good decisions. That's what I'm looking for there. I'm looking for a guy who I think could come in and be a great backup and like you said, maybe start. I feel more comfortable about that. I'm not taking a flyer. I just. I don't know. I. I'm very comfortable with taking that kid in the middle of day two.
- [47:30]
A
I appreciate everyone who's watching on Netflix. Both Menche and I do appreciate it. Thank you so much for watching on Spotify. Thanks for listening on Apple. If that's where you're doing or any anywhere else you get your podcast. We will be back on Monday. Okay. We're going to do a special EA Sports Driven Dynasty show on Josh Hoover in Indiana and it's going to be fascinating. I'm fired up for it. Then we're going to take a little bit of a break because I need some time away from Steve and I think Steve could use some time away from me. I don't know what you mean. We're going on a retreat together, it sounds like. I think our wives are working on that. We might meet up in Montana for a couple of days, and then I'm gonna be out in LA for a couple days for some meetings. I may be looking for a new co host and.
- [48:16]
B
That's tough. That's mean.
- [48:19]
A
No, it's. It's absolutely. It's the opposite of that. But then we're gonna be back. We're gonna be back after like, I don't know, it's probably like 12 days or so. We're not gonna have a show. We're back on Monday. And then. And it's like, you know, after that, it's. It's like two weeks combined, so. And then we've got a lot of exciting stuff coming up. We might have some exciting stuff to talk about for this fall. We might have all that. So I just wanted to prep everyone before I tell Mensch, migrate on messamaker and say five stars and just get out of here. I gave him a 6060 to the kid who left.
- [48:56]
B
Okay, you know what? All right. The kid who led the FBS in passing yards per attempt. Passing yards per game. Okay,
- [49:04]
A
five stars. See you Monday.
- [49:06]
B
Thanks, man.
- [49:08]
A
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