Loading summary
Transcript201 lines
- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by Netflix's Happy Giltmore 2.
- [00:04]
B
We're back.
- [00:05]
A
Thirty years ago, he decided to give golf a try. Now he's ready for the happiest comeback of all time. Adam Sandler's beloved golf legend returns to the green for another swing at glory. Just remember, it's all in the hips. Also starring Ben Stiller. I like him. Julie Bowen like her.
- [00:21]
B
And Benito.
- [00:22]
A
Antonio Martinez Ocasio. Happy Gilmore too. Now streaming only on Netflix. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website, to marketing, to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into Sign up for your $1 per month trial@shopify.com specialoffer.
- [01:01]
B
You know, Mitch, the longer I'm in this business, the more I just absolutely love studying defensive prospects on tape. Even more so than offensive. I'm being honest. There's something about the violence, the reaction skills, the rallying to the ball and the energy after a play. So today's the perfect way to to wrap up phase one of our two phase summer scouting series. And there's only 269 days until the NFL draft. M. You good?
- [01:28]
A
I'm good, man.
- [01:29]
B
You always are, brother. Give me some beach vibes, please. All right, three quick housekeeping matters. Okay, first of all, we're doing defensive prospects today. I know. This is where I get yelled at. McShay, you talk. Skip to the players. We all want to hear the players deal with it. It's going to be just one, one or two minutes. Okay, first off, newsletters out tomorrow if you don't subscribe. Come on, man, let's go. Let's go. It's called the McShay Report. Google it. I'm not Kirk Signetti. I'm just saying Google the McShay Report and, and, and, and you'll find out all. It's the quickest way you can get to it and you'll figure out how to subscribe. You can subscribe for free for premium. Premium users, you will. You'll get the opportunity to like, most recently we did the Q and A, right? They get to send in their questions. We answered like I think almost 30 of them between the show that we did and, and the newsletter. This one coming up is going to be A deeper dive into the top defensive prospects in. In all of college football for the 2026 NFL Draft. So get involved. We need your support. We're building this thing. And speaking of support men, how can the fine folks help us out here?
- [02:56]
A
Go to YouTube, find the MCSH. The MCSHay show almost says the MCSHay Report. Find the MCSHay Show. Hit the follow button. Go to Spotify, hit the subscribe button. He's at McShade 13 on all his socials. I am at you. Good mention. All mine.
- [03:10]
B
Perfect. Easy. I want it. We're always doing the McShay this, the McShay that. Let's talk about Mensch for a minute. The. The pleasure. The absolute pleasure of. Of joining. Mensch has a podcast, by the way. Do you know it's October?
- [03:27]
A
I forgot you were gonna do this.
- [03:28]
B
October 22, I think, is when we started this thing. The Screen. The Screeners is the name of the podcast, folks. This is the first time I'm mentioning it, and, like, shame on me. I don't let you talk enough. I don't promote your stuff. What's wrong with me? Well, that's ending. No, but in all seriousness, you've been growing it and developing it with a good friend, with your son. I want you to share because I had an awesome time. I went on with you and Ty and the boys, and we, like, we had a great time talking about Draft Day, if you want to hear. I think it's a ridiculous story of my pride and where I was in life back when Draft Day was taped. I'll give you a tiny little preview. I thought I was gonna be in the movie, and I wasn't, and I was pissed. And I'll tell you the whole story if you go check it out. But, Mitch, give a little. You always promote the McShay show rightfully so, because you're every better part of it, as I am. But why don't you promote your show for a second screen?
- [04:29]
A
The screener on Instagram and on X right now and on Spotify, so you can find it that way. It's more. We talk about all different sports. We keep it. It's a lot lighter. It's a lot more of us just ripping on each other. I think it's funny that you thought that the Draft Day conversation was so much fun because it got my blood pressure up. Just a quick note, on that movie, I. I can't stand that movie. I just. I just feel like it's so unrealistic. And I have friends that love to give me the hardest time about it. Every time we go into the draft, I get. I get texts saying, how are my pancakes? If you've seen that movie, you know what that means. But I. I do with my best friend, with my son. And it is. It's just a lot of fun. And I get to. To blow off all the scene that I don't get to blow off here. You know what I mean?
- [05:08]
B
It's.
- [05:08]
A
It's kind of like a little of a lighter thing. And I can't listen. If you want to hear my voice, I can't shut up on that show. They don't get. They don't get to speak on that one.
- [05:15]
B
I'm glad you were. You were able to do that. Now we'll continue to promote that as. As we go moving forward. I've got some other stuff real quickly before we get to the defensive prospects. Just one other thing. I would be remiss, not to mention one of my best friends in the world is a world champion. I know. Everyone knows that. I'm friends with Portnoy. I grew up with Portnoy. We were born in the same day in the same hospital in Salem, Massachusetts, back in 1977. Do the math. It's starting to look ugly. Known to my. Basically my entire life, starting with like, T Ball at 5 years old. Okay, good friends. There's, like a group of nine of us. They've been best friends from the small town Swampscott, Massachusetts. Also part of that friend group. We've got a chef in Matt o'. Neal. We've got one of the pre. Preeminent artists on Martha's Vineyard, Trager DePietro. We got Jason Kalishman. Now who's the. The superintendent of schools. We've been a fortunate bunch. Pete Woodfork, who's one of the top executives at Major League Baseball in New York City. But the guy that's, like, maybe doing the best of all of us. Todd Klein.
- [06:30]
A
Yeah, Todd Klein.
- [06:31]
B
Oh, I was Klein. Let me give you a little background on Todd Klein, who I've known also, I think, six years old. Todd Klein grew up at Lynn Ladder and Scaffolding, the largest ladder and scaffolding company in the world. In his family, he grew up. We used to make fun of him because he's the only one of us who had some money, you know, but never, like, he would never show it, never talk about it. Was again, honestly embarrassed by it. Wanted to be one of the guys and was. We call him the captain of the friends now. Long, short. He could have been the heir apparent to the kingdom. To the latter kingdom. Right. Turned it down, went his own way, walked on at Maryland. Basically was, was catching in the bullpen at Maryland. Took a job out of, out of college and like started doing like some agent stuff and working for agencies and started working this company out in LA that, that helped put I think the Staples center together with, with LA and ESPN and those. That's the studio, the LA studios out there. And then grew that and then got. Kept rising, grinding. This guy is like unbelievable with people. Unbelievable. Friend. The loyalty is beyond like all of my friends. It's one of the greatest gifts in life that I have is this group of nine friends and the loyalty. We text constantly, we talk, we meet up. Just went up to Swampscott for 3rd of July, the whole thing. But Klein keeps, keeps climbing and I, I know a lot of executives at, at Miami, the Dolphins, and he, he winds up getting nothing to do with me. And he introduces me to more. Now all of a sudden I'm like. But he gets the job at my, with the Dolphins as the Chief Marketing Officer. Winds up getting all those people, including Hard Rock, including. And especially Hard Rock to put the money in so they can build the Hard Rock stadium. That goes so well. He gets hired to Tottenham, right? And now he's the president of Tottenham. I don't know, I mean, I'm a football guy. Americano. Okay. But so, so now he's a Tottenham and the chill and he's doing such a good job of Tottenham. Chelsea wants to hire him as their president, like running the whole fucking thing, man. He's the, he's like the guy. There's ownership and there's Klein. They wind up in like a six. I'm not gonna get into details. A lot of legal stuff, but like a six month or longer battle over Klein. He's having to take out loans to make sure he could get by because he's not getting paid here and he hasn't gotten paid there and all of that stuff takes over Chelsea and they're here in, in the States in, in New York and they just won the world championship.
- [09:26]
A
It's cool.
- [09:27]
B
So cool. So I just know it's cliche. Nod to my, to my man Klein.
- [09:33]
A
It is cliche. And I don't know him obviously nearly as well as you do, but he is one of those guys that's just as good of a human being. Like he is just a, a good dude. Every time I interact, actually better.
- [09:42]
B
Yeah.
- [09:43]
A
Yeah. He just, you know, he makes you feel like you're the most important in the room, person in the room, no matter who you are.
- [09:50]
B
So that was awesome. That just happened a couple days ago and we hadn't been on since. So I just wanted to give him, give him some loves. I've no decliner forever. He's a world champion.
- [09:59]
A
That's awesome. That's pretty cool.
- [10:00]
B
You know. So.
- [10:01]
A
Yeah.
- [10:02]
B
Anyway, now let's talk defensive prospects. We've done the top eight quarterbacks. We did a show and I talked about in the open two phases of the, of the summer scouting series. We obviously did a lot of draft review in, in, in May and early June. But then we got into our, what we called the summer scouting series. I didn't kind of realize it at the time, but it's like, it's very clearly in my brain now is like a two phase part, two parts to the phase or two phases, whatever you want to call it. The first phase is what we're kind of wrapping up today in my mind. Doesn't mean we're done watching tape. In fact, we got a ton of tape left to watch even to get through our like top 100 in the preseason. But, but we've, we've made a point of emphasis to make sure we get the top quarterbacks. We've done eight, I think it was eight of them, right from Club Nick to Lenore Sellers to Nussmeier to Matier, all of those guys. Right? Then we did a show on the Manning Passing academy. We did a show on the Clemson defense, which probably has the most prospects of any, of any defense in Clemson as a, as a team has the Most prospects like 20, 26 draft prospects of any school in the country. So we decided we're going to stop down and do one on that. Watched a lot of tape on those guys. We did Caleb Downs and built and kind of baked in some top corners and safeties with that. We did Jeremiah Love, the running back from Notre Dame and baked in the top running backs. We did wide receiver. So we did all these things, but the only part, excluding offensive line, that we have been covered.
- [11:34]
A
The mailbag, by the way, was great too. The mailbag is a lot of fun and the mailbag.
- [11:39]
B
So the only thing that we haven't covered is kind of the top defensive prospects. As we head into the college football season, we're turning the page pretty soon to August, one month away and I and phase two and we'll guide you through it. But phase two is there's going to be a appropriately early mock draft in there. We're going to go through position rankings again. We're going to start really diving into college football, too. Okay. And some. And the rookies and what's going on in training camp and also. So we got our plate full. But it's. That, to me, is phase two of the summer scouting series because we're still going to be watching tape, preparing for the season and all that. So the, to me, like, the best way to wrap this up is give you kind of an overview of defensive prospects. We've already done three in detail. Okay. We've done three in detail, and we'll get to those guys in a minute. But I also wanted to share, like, I just went and looked and I. I started in the open with, like, I just. I've fallen in love, like, as time has gone on. And I still love evaluating quarterbacks and I still love evaluating receivers and the running backs and the tight ends and all that stuff in every position, to be honest. But there's something about putting on defensive tape, man. And I feel like we. Because we get so caught up in the offensive guys and specifically the skill guys, the guys who are catching the ball, carrying the ball, and. And most like, we get most caught up in the quarterbacks. I feel like the defensive guys don't get as much love. Right. So that's what today's show is. And I wanted to reiterate or not reiterate. I wanted to. To emphasize, like, if you go back and look, and I did this morning, if you go back and look at, like, the history of the draft, it's kind of like 50, 50 in round one. And in the couple years where it's a little bit weighted towards offense in round one. It gets sorted out in round two and round three. Okay, I just went back and looked. You ready for this match? Only nine. Only nine defensive players were drafted in round one of 2024. And that was an anomaly in the last several years. That's the closest we've got, you know, come to, you know, in the single digits and all that for defensive players and that. Remember, that was the year where just a couple years ago, not hard to Remember, there were six quarterbacks drafted in the top 12. It was. We broke a record for the most quarterbacks taken in that early. Right. So. But otherwise, typically half of round one defensive players, and you go back to 20, 23, like, it's not just defensive players. I do feel in a lot of instances, not always, but in a lot of instances, these guys on the defensive side are coming in and making huge impacts early, right? 2023, Hutch, Stingley, Sauce Hamilton, and a lot and like a handful more. And that's just round one. Okay. 20, 2022. Jared Verse, Quinion Mitchell, Quinton Mitchell, Byron Murphy, Dallas Turner and a couple other guys. Big impacts, early impacts. And we expect the same from the 2025 rookie class, right? Abdul Carter. We know he's going to make a big impact. Mason Graham, defensive tackle Cleveland, Mikel Williams, Kenneth Grant, Jade Baron, James Pierce, Malachi Starks, Jalen Walker, like, a lot, if not all of those guys are going to make quality to like damn good impacts for their respective teams. So today it's, it's about showing like if, if half of the product of this draft machine that's just barreling down the road every year and gaining esteem is on these defensive players. It's our, it's our responsibility to make sure that we're, we're giving enough emphasis there. So with all that as a backdrop, I just, I love the perspective stuff. And looking back, there are three players that we've already evaluated and I want to encourage everyone for these three players, which are, I already mentioned one of them, Caleb Downs, a safety, might be the best prospect in the entire draft. Talent was talent, instincts, all of it. Tape wise, I should say. Oh, and then the two, two Clemson guys that we already mentioned that we already did a deep dive on with that Clemson, Clemson show that we did. Peter woods, interior defensive lineman, and TJ Parker, the Edge, they're all like, in my opinion, tracking, all three of them, tracking to be top 10 picks. And I want to, I want to encourage everyone right now. Everyone's got a busy summer. I get it. June, July, beach, mountains, all the fun stuff that we, family, kids, all this, you know, camps, this stuff. But we're now like getting closer to August. So maybe, maybe it's a week before, maybe it's mid August. Whenever it is, I encourage you to go back and like, it's hard to find a deeper dive in three guys that are going to be top 10 pick, potentially top 10 picks than what we provided for you in the last month or so. Okay. And you can go back on YouTube, the McShay show, obviously, Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts, and you can just scroll right down, find those shows and throw it in when you're in the car, mowing your lawn, laying out by the pool or the beach, digging ditches in the backyard. Like, mention the summer up in New Hampshire, whatever it is. But I, I, I do want to give us an Opportunity since they are the top three guys and this is a contained show. Maybe additional note, one or one or two quick things you want to say on those guys. I'll follow up and just go one at a time. You talk on downs, I'll follow up. We'll go to woods, follow up. Parker, follow up and then we'll get into five more guys that I've evaluated on tape. I think you threw in an extra one according to your text today. Yeah. Because you just can't get enough and.
- [17:37]
A
I love that about you.
- [17:38]
B
And then we're going to kind of tree top it for you with a bunch of other guys, with a handful of other players. As we get close to the college football season. Keep an eye on these guys as being high impact players for their respective schools. So Caleb Downs, what you got for me, man? If you're to kind of summarize or something, a point of emphasis that you want to make the play.
- [17:58]
A
I can't get out of my mind when I think about Caleb Downs is the, the play he made to stop Tyler Warren. I think it was on fourth down, maybe third down in the Penn State game where he closed over the top of the other route and just made a, you know, just a big play in that game. I think he's so competitive, matching up with tight ends. I think he's great near the box, but I think it's a mistake to think because he's good at those things that he's a box safety. I think he can do it all. If you put him in a position to play over the top, he can do that. I've looked at some of these other safeties now and I'm going to be honest, I don't think there's anyone, I haven't seen anyone that's even close to what he can do in terms of the versatility, in terms of the playmaking, in terms of the instincts. So to me it's tough to take a receiver. I mean, I take a safety that early. I get it. Not a lot of guys go that early. He deserves all the credit that he's getting right now.
- [18:46]
B
His instincts are like he's athletically gifted. There's no question he's all those things. And, you know, 6 foot, 205 pounds, estimated 4, 4, 5 speed, all of that stuff. What's different and special about him is his instincts, right? And, and we spent a lot of time, I thought it was funny actually looking back. We spent a lot of time on that, on that show, Caleb Downs talking about how he's the closest thing that I've seen. I think you agreed in terms of his instincts, reading, awareness, understanding of the game of football to Ed Reed. We, we get done with that show, God knows how long, like an hour or so. Typically we've done better recently keeping it under an hour. We probably luck today. Yeah about 18 minutes in and we're just now getting the players. But Dan our, our wonderful producer Dan Comer jumped on, was like, so like do you think the best comp for him is Ed Reed? And I was like, not like they don't play the same exact game. That's what makes it different. So like when, when I talked about Ed Reed and we talked about Ed Reed so much in there and even you could do something like Troy Palomalu too. He does, he doesn't roam and, and get kind of out of position but like make up for it with the unlike like mind blowing plays. But they're two of the guys that just jump in my head of like how did they get there? You know, like how did they read that before everyone else in the defense read that? So that, that's what I would say. But he's like. Ed Reed was more of a free. He was a roamer. He was deep half. I mean downs has good ball skills. But Ed Reed was like a receiver, you know, like. So I don't want people if, if you're just kind of tuning in or you've watched a couple games of Ohio State and you hear his name called a lot and see him making a lot of plays. I don't think he's Ed Reed. Like, I don't think that they have across the board similar traits. It's the instincts I think as you mentioned, like his ability to, to play deep is, is good, really good. I think he's at his best when he's kind of roaming around, you know, near the line of scrimmage. They used him like the three safety looks. He was in the middle. He's like six, seven yards off the line of scrimmage. They adjusted to that later in the season. They've had him play kind of like, I don't even want to call it a big nickel, but like an extra linebacker coming off the edge and doing. He's played all around. So that to me is, is special. I'm excited to see too. What I forget I had the number. Was it eight? I think eight guys from Ohio State's defense got drafted something like this.
- [21:29]
A
It's not. It. Yeah.
- [21:31]
B
So. So I'm, I'm I'm excited this year. It wasn't nine.
- [21:37]
A
It might be nine.
- [21:38]
B
Okay. I'm excited this year to see it ain't the same supporting cast if he's playing that third safety or, or off the ball linebacker at times. Like, he doesn't have those four cats up front. He doesn't have Captain Jack. He doesn't have Tui Mole. He doesn't have, you know, the defensive tackles. He does, you know, he doesn't have the linebackers around, although Sonny Styles. Sonny Styles is back. So my point is this, is this. This year's a whole new set of challenges now. He. He was the guy, but now he's got to be the guy without the support around him. So that's going to be fun to watch with him. Peter woods, interior defensive lineman for Clemson. Summarize thoughts, whatever you got.
- [22:23]
A
Love the versatility. Could play on the inside, could play on the outside. He's already elite run stopper at this point in my mind and could do it a little bit of everything as a run defender. I think the ceiling as a pass rusher is really high. It's just. He just hasn't gotten there yet. You see flashes of it, but I have no concerns that he will get there and be a very good pass rusher as well.
- [22:46]
B
I think he's got a chance. Woods does, to be, quite honestly, maybe the first defensive player taken. Even though the vast majority, if not all NFL teams will have a higher grade on downs. He is a safety, right? So it wouldn't shock me if he takes that next step more of a plan as a pass rusher, better counters, just mastering his craft. It wouldn't shock me if he's the first defensive player taken. Okay. The things that jump out to me are like, you, you shouldn't be able to move at 6 foot 3, 315 pounds the way this guy moves. And his hands are lightning quick. And so that tells me he has the traits to really develop as a pass rusher. So, I mean. And he plays his ass off too, man.
- [23:34]
A
He does.
- [23:35]
B
He does his ass off. That's not always the case with those big fellas, right? They wear down early. He's got a motor about him that's. That's a little bit different. Granted, only 400.
- [23:45]
A
You know, I also love that he plays a little fullback too.
- [23:47]
B
Right? I know.
- [23:49]
A
I love when the big man get on the offensive side of the ball.
- [23:52]
B
You're old. This guy. J.J. pigis, so that. So that's Woods. What I found interesting in our conversation, again, check it out on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, wherever you get your podcast, go back and the Clemson podcast, you know, just breaking down the. The team in our opinion that not in our. I think in most teams in the NFL, their scouting departments would agree comes has got the most prospects. So we did the whole show on that. I think I had a slighter, slightly higher grade on woods than you did Parker, but vice versa for you.
- [24:32]
A
T.J. parker.
- [24:33]
B
Pressure, six three, 260, 265 pounds, played 640 snaps. That's up. That's like in the ballpark of what Abdul Carter was doing and was. Was allowed for by every NFL scout for like the amount of snaps, the motor, the effort, all that stuff. So give us, give us your. Your love on TJ Parker and why you think he might even be a better prospect when it's all said and done.
- [24:57]
A
Well, I said it at the time and I feel that way still is that he's more Parker's more Jared Verse than he is Abdul Carter. And what I mean by that is he's a power guy. He's gonna. He wants to run, run right through you. And you saw that in the. The Florida State game, he ran over an offensive guard. South Carolina game, he ran over an offensive tackle. I love that aspect of his game. And I think he branches everything off of that as a. As a pass rusher, he works everything else off of the power, which is smart. That's his greatest strength. And then use it to set up everything else. As a run defender, he can set the edge. I think he's got to be a little more consistent, but he can set the edge, hold his ground. I think he's tough. So to me, I'll take the edge over the interior guy. And I do think that Parker's a little farther along in terms of his development as a pass rusher.
- [25:42]
B
I like him a lot too, man. And power translates to the NFL. Right? Power translates to the NFL. And that's what he's got. You mentioned like, he. I wrote down in my notes, like the guard, the. Sorry, the right tackle for Georgia just ran over him. Not like knocked him back and tripped up. Like, absolutely ran over him. Ran over the Florida State right guard. Play 24 against Virginia. Ran over the left tackle. And as I mentioned in the show, he's probably still responsible for. For nightmares. Like reoccurring nightmare. We've all had reoccurring nightmares, right? Reoccurring nightmare of. For 77, the right tackle for Pittsburgh. I think he's probably still having nightmares about number Three TJ Parker coming off the edge because it was an ugly game for him. Yeah, I don't think there's like with those two guys up front and it's rare to have that like you got to go back to Clemson. I don't know how many years ago it was when they had the three. It was a three defensive lineman drafted in the first round.
- [26:47]
A
It's at least two. I don't know who the third was.
- [26:49]
B
I think it was three.
- [26:51]
A
Okay.
- [26:52]
B
Was it Dexter?
- [26:53]
A
Was it Lawrence Farrell and Wilkinson?
- [26:57]
B
Well, yes.
- [26:58]
A
Or Wilkins. Wilkins, sorry. Yeah, Wilkins.
- [27:00]
B
Yeah. And Farrell was a surprise. Mike Mayock drafted him at six or something crazy. We were all shocked. But to have those two guys up front is pretty special. And then they've got some other guys that we talked about in the show as well. All right, so whether you have Downs Parker woods or Downs Woods Parker I think mentioned. I both agree and I'm interested to see does that change? Are there other guys that we went and evaluated tape on that. You would rank higher. But coming into it, that that was the top three. Okay, next up for me, based off of our tape study now I'm going to give you some names that we're going to go through today. Okay. Interior defensive lineman Caleb Banks from Florida edge Rubin Bane Jr. From Miami, linebacker Anthony Hill Jr. From Tech Texas edge Gabe Jackus from Illinois and linebacker Deontay Lawson from Alabama. And then we'll get to a bunch of other guys as well. And I know you have another a, a men special that you're going to unveil for us.
- [28:07]
A
You like him? I think you like him too. We'll see. We get to him.
- [28:12]
B
So let me start on Banks real quick. Cable Banks. I gave him a high grade. I gave him a 91, 92.
- [28:20]
A
Ooh. I gave him a high grade, but not that high.
- [28:24]
B
I believe in this guy. He's a fifth year player. I'll give you the background on him. Spent first two seasons at Louisville. Didn't do a whole lot before transferring to Florida. 2021, did very little. 2022. Did some played sparingly during those first two years. And then 19 tackles, one and a half for loss, one sack as a, as a rotational player for Florida in 2023. But in 2024 he kind of broke out. And that's the tape that I studied. He had 20. And that doesn't sound like massive production, but he played a lot more snaps and, and he wound up with 21 tackles, seven for loss and four and a half sacks. Also two force fumbles. This guy is six, six. He's number 88 in your program. Six six. Number one in your hearts. Anyone who watches the movie, the program, six six, three hundred and twenty pounds, estimated five, two, which is about, you know, solid. Judging by the way he runs, I would guess he's closer to like five flat, four, nine, something. No.
- [29:28]
A
Can you look at him and you. No, I'm with you. I look at it, I'm like, that man is £320. Like, the way he carries his weight is really unique. I mean, he, he doesn't look like he's got a lot of body fat for a guy that weighs 320 pounds. And that's part of that is having that 6 foot 6 frame. But go ahead.
- [29:43]
B
Yeah. You don't write body beautiful many times in your scouting report when you're talking about a 320 pounder. He is body beautiful. He runs well. Impressive athleticism for size. I was impressed by. He's not like it's, it's different. Like when Aaron Donald's £279 coming out or some of these other, you know, smaller three techniques. It's not that same twitch and sudden. Right. But when you, you have to train your brain that. I'm looking at 320. I'm looking at 6, 6, 3, 20. So his takeoff man, like whether he's flashing in front of a guard on a slant or getting up, you know, penetrating up the field, it's pretty damn impressive.
- [30:26]
A
Yes.
- [30:27]
B
He's got snap in his hands too. And he's got some upper body like that pop. And, and I also like his flexibility. I thought he was pretty flexible for.
- [30:39]
A
What I have it right there. I had the same. I was like, dude's flexible. I wrote it in my notes. I was like, this guy is flexible for an interior guy.
- [30:47]
B
So these all start stacking these traits on top of one another. Now, he's not a space eater. So you look at his frame and you're like, are we, are we looking at like a Casey Hampton, a zero technique? He eating. He's just not. I don't mind his effort. Like, I think he's, I think he plays hard. He's not the type of guy who's going to turn his back to it and give that lazy rep against double teams. But consistently he loses versus double teams. So that's an area I want to see him improve. But the, the funny part is I think he's also kind of get some country strong to him. He dominates one on ones. It's a Kind of a weird thing to watch because he just, he can't. Whether it's too high maybe and I don't see him like rising like some other guys, but he can't quite double take on that double team and just occupy. But he's. But when he's working one on one here, I want to explain this. One of the most important things I learned in scouting with defensive linemen, whether it's an edge or an interior guy, you're not going to win with pure speed very often in the league. If you don't have the combination of the power to put fear in offensive lineman and mention those as a former offensive line, there are tricks to protect yourself against pure speed that doesn't have power to threaten. To threaten me, right. To strike that fear. So I, I learned probably too late in my career, maybe in like 2010 or something, the importance of power and not just power. We talked to Brusky about this, Teddy Brusky a long time ago when we sat down watch a bunch of tape with him. Was that the Micah Parsons year, Sean Lee year? I thought, oh, Sean Lee, yeah, yeah. And. And the other linebacker there. That's right. I knew it was earlier than that because Parsons was only like five years ago.
- [32:37]
A
Right.
- [32:40]
B
So the torso flexibility and why is this important? The power and Torx torso flexibility. If you watch the great defensive lineman in the NFL, guys who don't necessarily run if you're an edge like a 4 or 5 or. Or a defensive tackle run like a 4, 7. Guys who in they're quick off the snap can kind of jolt offensive lineman a little bit, get them disoriented, get them on their heels a little bit and then can work through contact. That's the thing I learned. And it was like there's an epiphany of wait, you're not just going to win with speed. These guys are too good at the next level. How do you work? Because they're always going to reach you at some point. How do you work from that point? And so when I watched him and yes, I saw that there's only four and a half sacks last year and I watched on tape and he's got to get home a little bit more. I think there are times where I'm watching him and. And he left a couple sacks on the field. He doesn't necessarily quite know like some counters and different things, but his efforts great. And when he engages and gets that guy jacked back up, there goes my microphone because I'm so animated. But it's like jack back up, right? And then you. And then there's that moment of truth when they, when the offensive lineman resyncks his hips and gets inside. Can he then work with that torso flexibility and kind of have that country strong, that core strength to work through that, that edge? You always hear about the edge. He bends a sharp edge and all this stuff with the edge rushers. But like the, the really good pass rushers work half a man, meaning I'm not trying to beat. If I'm trying to beat Mensch, I'm not taking his full body on. I'm working his right side or his left side. Maybe I'm starting at his right side with a plan to get to his left side and then kind of work and by work and like this you hear shave the edge and bend the edge and all that stuff. And working half a man. It's all about when you get that moment of truth where we now are engaged because it was inevitable. Can I kind of grind my way around, around that right or left side of you as a massive human being? The great ones do, the good ones do. Sometimes the guys that fail and become draft busts are the ones that just never learn because they were so fast and they were so athletic and they were so talented and they were able to kind of jack a guy up. They but then didn't have any counters, didn't have that torso flexibility, didn't have. This guy's got a lot of the traits and that's why I gave him a high grade. And I recognize I'm probably higher than a lot of people on it. And I'm not saying that's where he was going to wind up definitively going in the first round or definitively going in the top 20. But I'm saying I. If he makes that next step and continues to develop, I think he's got a shot, man.
- [35:31]
A
He eyes it to me. No question, he's a first round talent. I think the, the two knocks that I had where I maybe didn't have, I gave him a 90. I think it wasn't quite as high as you, so it's in the same ballpark. But the two, the two knocks I had was the. He's six six man. It's tough to keep those pads down sometimes. And so the pad level comes up, which hurts them both in the run game and as a pass rusher. And the other thing that, that jumped out to me a little bit is his feet aren't married to his hands quite yet as a pass rusher and when that comes together, watch out. Watch. I will say this. Four and a half sacks for an interior defensive lineman. I'm not mad at it. I don't think that's that bad of a number. And then when you watch the tape, he's way more disruptive. And I am convinced, I am convinced that he could play anywhere along the defensive line regardless of the scheme. I don't, I, I think he could play outside in a base, four man front, inside. I think he can two gap where he can stack and shed guys. He can be disruptive getting into gaps. I think the one, the one place you might not want to play him is nose tackle and a four man front where he's got a shade. If you shade the guard or the center and you put him in a position where he's gonna have to take on a lot of double teams, that's not the greatest thing for him. But if you don't, there's pretty much anything else he can do along the defensive line. There's like honestly and again, another motor, another motor guy. This guy chases, he makes plays, he doesn't. He's not, you know, gearing. He's not gearing down after that first move. He keeps working. He is. I watched, I'll be honest with you, after the, the first 20 snaps I'd watched, I was like this kid's going early, early. And then I watch more. And that's why you do it. And you see a couple of the, of the flaws and the holes in his game that he's got to work on. But man, when you did good tape is freaking awesome. It is awesome.
- [37:14]
B
I, I would put in here three technique, five technique for like he's a disruptive interior defensive line with a combination of flexibility, mobility, core strength and upper body pop. To play both as a three technique and a five technique depend in certain schemes, not all four.
- [37:33]
A
I Yep. That, that's that that area of the line. Yep.
- [37:37]
B
And to be an immediate impact starter ascending talent I believe is going to emerge as a first round pick. Want to see more effectiveness versus double team and more finishing getting home pass rushing production. I said like I don't know if they're perfect comps. I was looking for taller defensive linemen like that that have that versatility. Were not who are not zeros. And I wrote not not a 00t or a 1t type guy but like Eric Armstead, Calais Campbell, you know what I mean?
- [38:12]
A
I went with Armstead initially. I think it's Calais Campbell all the way. Like I see plays Campbell, you know, another guy that played his college ball in the state of Florida. I think he was at Miami, right?
- [38:21]
B
Yep.
- [38:21]
A
I see Calais Campbell in his game so much. I love, by the way, both great comps. I mean, if you're getting compared to those two guys as a taller defensive tackle, that's good news for you.
- [38:33]
B
So that's, that's Caleb Banks and I purposely did some extra time on him just because I like, I think he's getting, not that anyone's getting looked at a lot or not. I think he might elevate to that like higher tier. Right. Next on the list is Reuben Bain out of Miami. Let me give you some back background. I'll let Mensch go first on the, on the traits and what he saw. But the background on Ruben Bane is six three, 276 pounds, estimated 472 for whatever that's worth right now. Okay. Two year player at Miami, both years at Miami and a starter entering his third season for the Canes. Okay. In 2023, he kind of just broke out. Everyone knew he was like a, I don't know if a festar for whatever the it was. He was a, he was a big time star recruit. But he, he, he didn't take him long to take over starting job. It was game three. Okay. Started the final 10 games for Miami, finished with 44 tackles. This is a true freshman, 18 years old, 44 tackles, 12 and a half tackles for loss and seven and a half sacks. Which ranked tops among all the defensive linemen for Miami in that year as a freshman. Hard to do. We were 18 once. When we were 18, we were looking at guys like Sean Barber who was drafted by the Redskins at the time. Commanders now we were Mark Magna, who was drafted by the, the Jets, I think it was. And it like, it was like, that's a, that's a man. I'm a boy, you know, so like just for that perspective. But then he comes in 2024, he suffered a soft tissue injury is what they're calling it in the opener versus Florida. Didn't come back till October 3rd against Cal. Came back and, and played, I thought pretty well in that game, especially as the game went on. Started all nine games that he played last year, 23 tackles. Obviously fewer games. Production wasn't quite as good though. 23 tackles, five and a half tackles for loss and three and a half sacks. He missed four games and when he came back, he's still, you know, maybe not 100%. Take it from here. What did you see on tape And I'll counter with what, what I saw. If it's any different, well, I'll just.
- [40:43]
A
Pick up where you left off. I think I went back and watched the 2023 tape and he looked, I'll say he looked more explosive on the 2023 tape that he did in all the 2024 tape. And with that being said, I, I'll still say that I thought his tape last year was pretty damn good too. Man. We got another guy who's got some explosive power and there's, there are guys that can shoot their arms and start walking offensive tackles back and then there's another moment of truth, as you put it. Can you get off the, the block at the top of your rush? Once you get there, once you have him, can you get off? Are you going to just going to be stuck and you're going to be a guy that keeps the quarterback in the pocket, but you're not going to be a guy that makes a lot of plays. And to me, he's a guy that can get off, he can get off blocks at the top of the rush. I think he really flashes great hands, especially when he kicks it inside. He's got a little bit of that versatility where he can kick inside to rush the passer. Big dude, he can set the edge against the run. He's tough against the run. He's also quick enough to slip some blocks and get into the backfield. I was excited, I was excited after watching last year's tape and then I was like, man, if he can get back to that 2023, just that little bit more juice that he had that year when he wasn't again when he was healthy the whole year, watch out because he's, he, I not watch a lot of his tape. He's a damn good player.
- [42:02]
B
Yeah, I'm just jotting down a couple or underlining a couple of my notes here to kind of carry on what you're saying and add some, some balance to it. Power based pass rushers. You said snap in his hands. Core power. I thought he bends well. Not elite, but bends well enough. I, I really one thing that stood out, it's funny he doesn't run. He's not like, he's not fast. He's not one of those guys who's going to chase down from behind. He's not a 4 or 5 guy, not even a 4, 6 guy. I think he's like, you know, probably going to be a 4, 7 guy, but he's got in a lot of the great pass Rushers do. He's got this closing burst if you get that quick takeoff and then you have the closing verse like that short area the last three yards to the ball carrier versus the run to the quarterback. And as a pass rusher and he's got that. I thought he did a really good job like crossing over the face of offensive tackles. Got the power to prevent offensive linemen from getting in like really sustaining. They can get in there but they're not going to like lock on. I rarely saw with Bane or it was like a stalemate like the play's over, you know what I mean? And so he was like always working and fighting through. I, I saw some like I like I said advancing the pass rush. I just gave a whole lecture on. On with Caleb Banks on advancing the pass rush when engage. This guy does a really good job of that. There was a fourth quarter. Yeah. 9:34 fourth quarter versus Cal. This is what I wrote like good job crossing the face of the offensive tackle. Has the power to prevent the offensive line from sustaining blocks or really nice job working through the block advancing the rush. After initial engagement that was that play versus Cal. I, I think he's got, I think he could continue to develop his plan sometimes and, and like his array of pass rush moves and be like a little bit more sudden and like you know. But I really like his rip and his slap move like his two hand slap move. He does, he does some nice things but there's, there's, it's a, there's area for growth. Right.
- [44:08]
A
Yeah.
- [44:09]
B
And as you said good core strength versus the run. Upper body power sets the sets the edge disengages when locates.
- [44:19]
A
Really.
- [44:19]
B
And I wrote this and it was important because I put it in part of in caps really manhandles offensive linemen when he gets that initial leverage position. He really does.
- [44:32]
A
He's got some banks in him too though where he left some sacks on the field. By the way. He's got to be a little bit better.
- [44:37]
B
Perfect transition. Here are my two howevers on him. He lacks, he lacks suddenness and, and, and like Vi like he's strong and all that but like I, I. There's a little lack of like sudden violent movement sometimes. Even though he's strong he's got power. He's got snapping his hands. It's like I don't know. He's just missing like and I'm talking for the elite, right.
- [45:05]
A
He's a 275 pound power end. He's not a 255 pound you know, speed rush guy.
- [45:12]
B
Right. And then the other part is less than ideal. Redirect quickness and, and there was a play against Cal, 240 left third quarter. It was a great example. He gets in there, works the offensive tackle. He's there and then just needs to read because the quarterback is moving. I think it was Mendoza, right, was moving and he just like I saw there were a handful of times, a few too many where he wins the rep. Just about to get home and he winds up sliding out, you know, like that, reaching. Right. So that's where he can improve up this year. But I, I'm betting on his potential, man. I really am. And we talked about power and the importance as a pass rusher. So I think Bain's another guy. Like if I had to bet right now, later first.
- [46:01]
A
I'm good with that. Yeah. 89 90s. I think I gave him 88. So yeah, that's where I got him.
- [46:07]
B
Yeah. Won't get out of round two unless there's something that we know, not foreseeable. Medical character, all that stuff. But won't, won't get out of round two. I'm gonna save the two linebackers. Anthony Hill Jr. From Texas and, and, and Deontay Lawson, Alabama. I like one more than the other at this point. I'll give you a little, little preview there.
- [46:27]
A
Ooh.
- [46:29]
B
You say you'll never join the Navy, Never climb Mount Fuji on a port visit or break this down barrier. Joining the Navy sounds crazy. Saying never actually is. Learn why@navy.com America's Navy forged by the sea. Gabe Auspic. I pronounced.
- [46:48]
A
I'm really interested here.
- [46:49]
B
Jack is earlier and I'm the jackass for calling them jackass. It's, it's July. I, I will correct it. Sometimes too late. But not, not this time thanks to, to Dan. I just, you know, in our group chat texted to double check. Something I should have done before the show. Gabe Akkis from Illinois, number 17. He's 6 foot 3, 275 pounds. Again, not a speed merchant. 4, 7, 8, 40. He's a three year player, two year starter at Illinois. During his three seasons he's racked up 140 tackles, 22 tackles for loss, 16 sacks, 4 force fumbles. Had his best season this past year. So he's, he's escalating properly. 74 tackles last year, eight sacks and three of those four force forced fumbles were last year. I'll give you my little rant on him and I'll let you, let you go Speed is average. The height is average. He's really well put together. I think he, he, he plays all along the Illinois defensive line. At first I'm like, wait, am I watching the right guy? Like he's always at three technique. Early on, you know, I forget. It was like the first game I was watching.
- [48:06]
A
Bane was like that against Georgia Tech where they played him inside a lot. They.
- [48:09]
B
Yes.
- [48:10]
A
Depending on the matchup they'll put. Because again, we're talking about human beings that are in that 275, 280 pound range. You could do a lot of different things with them. So if you're going against a certain like zone scheme that's more athletic, you're going to take your big athletic guy and maybe kick him inside a little bit more.
- [48:26]
B
He, he's a versatile defensive lineman who's active, instinctive and efficient in his movements is what I said. He wins with unbelievably efficient hands. And that's. You don't really see that with college guys as much. And then combine that with impressive core strength, the ability to stand up offensive lineman initially before efficiently, like he has had a plan. He stands them up and then he's working his hands with his feet, tying and marrying those two things together, which you don't always see. And he does that through engagement as we talked about. Not an elite athlete just like Bain leaves, leaves tackles, leaves sacks on the field. And he's not a speed merchant. He's not a guy who's going to beat you. Right? But the, but with what God gave him, he does an awesome job, plays all over the line, can beat you with the flexibility, with the versatility, like crossing the offensive tackles, face working through standing guys up and then having a plan to kind of counter it. But this guy's a grinder, man. He can wear multiple hats and we talk about it all the time. He's got the core strength, he's got some flexibility, he's got efficiency in his movement. He's. He can wear a bunch of different hats. And so NFL teams that are looking for a difference maker that can help them be multiple along the defensive line and find me a team in the league that isn't looking for that. Akis is a guy that's going to draw a lot of interest. I'm not saying he's not a first half of the first round guy. He's not a first. Maybe he doesn't go in the first round, but I like, I think there's a chance if he could develop late first round range Worst case, I see him coming off the board in round two based off of what I saw on tape. And I can't emphasize enough how much I like his motor, his toughness and his versa, versatility as a player.
- [50:26]
A
I will say this. I don't like him as much as you do. I gave him a third round grade. But I, I will say I can see him doing. I, I'll, I'll start with where I agree with you and the fact that I can see him. I can see him going up. High school state champion wrestler. When you talk about those hands, shows up on. Those hands show up on tape motor. Outstanding. I am going to talk about his run defense right now. And when I talk about the run defense, I don't want for some second to say that I don't think he's tough or that he chases. Those are not the issues that I have when I talk about his run defense. I feel like the instincts and I think the best way for me to describe it, the comfort level that you see him have as a pass rusher, when he's rushing, the passer almost disappear in the run game. I think he's late to locate the ball. I think he's late to get off blocks. I think for a guy that big, he shouldn't give as much ground as he does. I, again, not a toughness issue. I think it's more of a, a technique, more of a comfort level with him playing the run than it is than any kind of a deal with toughness. I was, I had some serious concerns about. There was times I saw, I think in the Northwestern game maybe where a tight end gave him a ride, took him for a ride, man. And I was like, I was like, hey, you got to get those pads down. You got to play with a better base. There was some issues. I think he's a significantly better pass rusher than run defender.
- [51:49]
B
Yeah, I gave him a 1.5 pass rush, 2.5 run.
- [51:52]
A
Right.
- [51:53]
B
Sounds like you give him a lower.
- [51:55]
A
Frame, toughness, motor, all there. If he cleans that up a little bit, continues to, to develop and flesh out as, as a pass rusher. Absolutely. In the mix where he is in the process right now I have him more as, as a third round guy and again, let's see what happens. He could move up. Can we get him my edge before we get into your linebackers?
- [52:18]
B
Yeah, please. You dropped this on me and I didn't watch his tape. So this is all you, brother.
- [52:22]
A
We're watching these edges and I'm like. And I And I had to look because he only has one year really, of production. I want to make sure that he was eligible. And listen, I've been working on his name. I really hope I'm going to get it right, but it's the Oregon Edge Mateo Ui on Galalay. And he's DJ's brother, which I should know the name by the.
- [52:45]
B
Yeah, come on, dude. You know, you couldn't get Akis, so.
- [52:49]
A
Don'T get on me about, you know.
- [52:52]
B
So, you know what I mean?
- [52:53]
A
Like, listen, give me a break. I'm trying here.
- [52:57]
B
Who can't say that?
- [52:59]
A
And listen, man, learn it. Listen. Want to talk about. If you look at where he was as a freshman two years ago and where he was last year as a pass rusher, it is night and day as a freshman. He came in as this really talented, athletic, rangy kid. You loved his tape and you're like, he's just, it's just not coming together yet. And then I'm seeing, I'm talking about hands Mary Defeat. I mean, he had one rep and I should, I, I don't know where I put the note, but it was, he kicked inside and he made an offensive guard look like he was standing still. And it was because of how well his feet are married to his hands right now. Everything's fluid and effortless and then he can close and then you put him on the outside. He's got the length to stand guys up. He's got the, he's got the quickness to, and the bend to win off with speed off the edge. I if he, he made such a significant jump as a pass rusher from year one to year two, he's got to do the same now, I think as a run defender and I, I'm not as concerned about his run defensive as I am Akis. He, he's an okay run defender now.
- [54:03]
B
He can set the edge.
- [54:04]
A
He's just got to get a little bit stronger and get quicker at getting off blocks. He's just got to develop. He's got to be go from that, you know, slightly above average run defender to like realizing how good he could be in that area and be elite there too. I watch him and I really think he's, he's a sophomore. We'll see what he does. We'll see what happens with this year. I think he's a guy who's going to be in the mix to be the first defender off the, off the board. I really think he's that talented, really. I I, There is no doubt in My mind that he's going to be in that mix.
- [54:35]
B
Oh, I've got like my, my boating shirt or maybe maybe Miami club night clubbing shirt on. I'm ready to like go hang. We. After we. After we take this, I'm gonna make.
- [54:46]
A
You go watch tape now after we.
- [54:48]
B
Take this show down. We got like 15, 16 days off. I'm like, I'm present with Summer now. Finally. Now I'm gonna go watch We Uns tape.
- [55:00]
A
Who's a software by the way. We'll see what happens.
- [55:02]
B
I love that. I love that then and I mean that's what this time of year is for. Two linebackers I want to get to. Okay, we're already at almost an hour. Got things to do. Let's rip through them, but let's give them their love. I'm not trying to race through and, and cut anyone short here. Anthony Hill Jr. From Texas. Both linebackers wear zero by the way. And Deontay Lawson, Alabama coming in. I think I would have said I kind of like Lawson a little bit more than Hill. And I'm here to tell you there's not a massive difference between the two. And I do think Lawson with the ACL injury creates a little, a little bit more of cloud of kind of concern, you know. And I'm hearing he's recovering like really well and not just like sources. Like my sources. Like good sources.
- [55:56]
A
Good. I'm glad because I that he's like.
- [55:58]
B
On track and they might, they might like limit him a little bit in camp and, and try to do all that stuff. But they think he's going to be close to, if not 100% by the start of the year, which is awesome. I mean modern medicine, right? ACL tear against Oklahoma in November and he's going to be good to go. So we'll see if that's the case. And I, I would actually argue maybe Lawson is like slightly more gifted. Both high leadership guys, but Lawson's like green dot gold star.
- [56:31]
A
Like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [56:33]
B
I'm sure you've heard like he's, he's one of those like top, top tier leader guys. Okay. I kind of liked Hill's tape more. Anthony Hill, 63, 235 pounds, runs a 44 8. Okay. Is what the estimated time is.
- [56:51]
A
I don't know if I quite saw moving man. I didn't quite see that either.
- [56:56]
B
I think he can run four or five. Yeah, I think he's fast. I think he's like a 453, 455 guy. Which is, which is great. Like it's very, very good. But he's entering his third year in 2025, one and a half year starter, 30 games. He's played 22 starts at Texas. He's racked up some numbers, bro. 180 tackles, 25 for loss, 13 sacks, three pass breakups and five force fumbles last year alone. First year is a full time starter. They had 16 games mind you, but still 113 tackles, 16 and a half for loss. Second on the team with eight sacks. He's got obviously great traits. Six, three. The length. Length that off ball linebackers become more and more important as the passing game is becoming more and more important because I can tell you firsthand they're a pain in the ass to throw around and to throw over with that length. Okay. Highly in. I really liked his instincts. Highly productive obviously and nose for the football. Makes a lot of like, makes a lot of big plays. And I, what I noticed about him is it's like, it's kind of not effortless but like some guys have fast eyes. They've been taught to read their keys. He. To me, what I saw is a guy that's like really used to it, really comfortable. It's. It's easy for him. Locates the ball quickly, not a lot of false step steps, snuffs out, you know, screens and misdirections early faster than any other guy on that Texas defense. On a lot of plays. Not always, but a lot of plays. Really effective in the passing game. Good range instincts. Gets in positions that tip ball to himself. Against Louisiana Monroe was on my, my key play. Real look comfortable there. Can I tell you, he has great, great ball skills and all that. I, I don't know, you know, definitively. He's had some other, you know, kind of moments. But, but like I see a guy who's very capable in coverage. And then you add the fact at 63235 he can be effective as a pass rusher.
- [59:12]
A
Now that's his greatest strengths.
- [59:15]
B
Yeah, like. But, but can he do it in the league?
- [59:20]
A
I, that's. It's the same question I have. And there's the pro. Are you gonna get into the pros and cons of this? Because I think there's a pro.
- [59:26]
B
Let me rip off to the two cons I had. And then you take it from here. Two knocks I've got on him right now and they both can be improved upon. And they're not as important necessarily as the strengths which the passing game, the range and all those in the instincts. I thought his take on skills were average at best, but not. But not bad.
- [59:48]
A
Okay.
- [59:49]
B
And I say that because when he does get engaged, like fully engaged, it's over. That's the case with most, most off the ball linebackers. When an offensive lineman climbs to the second level and they get their 320 on year 235. It's human nature at that point. What he does really well is he takes that snapshot that we talked about. Bruski. I see that in him. He, like, he, he, he's got the instincts, the eyes. He sees where the ball carrier is going. Is he coming right, coming left? Now I'm going in for engagement, but I'm going to make this quick. It's got to be quick. You know what I mean? And he does a good job with like that quick stun move and then like the quick hands. And so it keeps a lot of guys from getting to that final like, oh, I'm done moment. But when they do, it's over. The second thing is I think he's a low impact tackler.
- [60:46]
A
Interesting. I don't, I don't disagree with that. That's interesting for guys.
- [60:50]
B
The biggest thing in the world. Yeah. And has five force fumbles. You'd expect more of that. That like on contact.
- [60:59]
A
Like he missed a lot of tackles last year. Man. He missed a lot. They played a lot of games. Like you said, you know, it's worth.
- [61:07]
B
Noting a bunch of tackles. Right?
- [61:09]
A
Yeah. He's not. You're, you're. I 100 agree with you. I would say the one, the one beef that I have with you. I agree, I agree with the fact that you, first of all, he's a taller inside linebacker. It makes sense that you have longer arms. Right. And he uses that length to prevent guys from getting into him. So that's kind of what helps. And then again, the instincts. Beating guys to spots. So it' harder for a guy to reach him. I agree with all that. One beef I would have with your coverage analysis. I think he's better in zone than he is matching up a man. I think he can turn and run and compete with tight ends and reroute tight ends and do all that. But if you, if you force him, this is one of the tackling issues, actually. You force him to make quick cuts, a quick change of direction in space. He's taller guy. And sure enough, he's a little, he's a little stiff in space. He has a hard time redirecting like that. As far as a Pass rush goes. Here's, here's what I'll say. I agree with you. If you're, that if you're 235 pounds and you know Tristan Wurfs of the world get their hands on you, you're going to go for a ride. You're, you're, you're not going to be able to power through that. You just, it's a lean, that is a lean body type for, for a guy coming off the edge. What I like about him is he does bend well. He is, he is quick and he can win with speed. But then I see him mix in some outside inside moves with his hands and he's slipping guys to the inside. He's not a one trick pony. And I think that when you're looking at how you're going to use him as a pass rusher, he doesn't have to come off the edge. He has a really good feel. As a late add on. He has a really.
- [62:32]
B
Yes, yes.
- [62:33]
A
Of when he comes up and letting almost that initial protection set and then recognizing weaknesses and recognizing where he can, he can exploit a gap where he can close where he can make a play.
- [62:45]
B
I feel like I'd be good at that. Kind of like sneak up on you, you know?
- [62:52]
A
Is there anything you've ever been like, I wouldn't be good at that. Is there anything.
- [62:54]
B
Yeah, you re. If you reached me on the second level, it would be for me, my family, my children. All right, good. I just wanna, I want to make.
- [63:02]
A
Sure that there's something that you think you might be flawed at.
- [63:05]
B
Shut up.
- [63:06]
A
But anyways, yeah, he's, he's really instinctive in that sense too. He's a ball player and so is the next guy we're going to talk about. By the way. I think they're both really good ball players. Like that's what you want from a linebacker too, right? Like a good feel for the game.
- [63:20]
B
I'll be interested because I want to give some, some context here. Off the ball linebackers. True. Off the ball linebackers. Not talking about Jalen Walker, who's going to be used as both and maybe more pass rush. All that talking. True. Off the ball linebackers. You know that we've only had one in the first round the last two years.
- [63:39]
A
Who was it?
- [63:39]
B
Jihad Campbell.
- [63:41]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [63:42]
B
And four in the first round in the last four years. Wow. So you're averaging one a year. So history tells us. I mean, then again, you go back to. Was it 2023 with Campbell from Iowa and there was another one that year. Go Quay Walker. I think there's one more too. So like it can happen. And these guys I think are, are capable of playing their way into both. Playing their way into first round. Like if I had to bet on it right now, I'd say it's more likely, more probable than not that they both.
- [64:19]
A
Oh yeah, I think they're day two guys.
- [64:23]
B
But with that, with that context, I, I don't, I don't quite know. I'm not here stamping a first round right now. No. Yeah, I feel better about an 8889 grade on Hill and an 8788 grade on, on Lawson. For me.
- [64:45]
A
That's fine by me right now.
- [64:47]
B
Now let's see where we are in April. That's the beauty of doing this. We've got a foundation now and we'll grow. So Lawson, let me give you some backdrop on him and I'll let you do your evaluation and let's kind of rip through. I already already told you about the ACL injury, already told you about the leadership and who he is as a, as a person and the football character. He's a fourth year player in this coming up in this season. Okay. Played mostly special teams in 11 games in 2023 before took over the starting starting mike job, the middle linebacker job. No, that was in 2022, sorry, mostly special teams in 2022 and before he took, he took over that starting Mike job in 2023. Missed three games that year. This is not a good pattern due to injury and two this past year suffering the torn ACL against Oklahoma. So he's got 20 starts the past two seasons and he's been productive. Man. 140. 143 tackles, 12 for loss, five sacks aced, eight pass breakups and one force fumble. But not as productive as, as Hill has been and not the, you know, not quite the pass rush ability that Hill has. I would say this guy Lawson is better in coverage, personally. Slightly better in coverage and, and I think to your point, like better in man coverage. Okay. But that's the backdrop on it. As I said. Sick. So he's got a little shorter frame and just about 240 pounds where Hill's got a little bit longer frame and 235. So while it's 235 versus 239, it's a different package that's showing up on your doorstep. You know, both, both projected in that 4 high 4, 4 low 4 or 540 yard dash range. Yeah. Give me what you got on Lawson.
- [66:34]
A
I, I Remember early on of us starting to do this together, and I won't say years, because why would we do that to ourselves? You talked about linebackers, and I was former offensive lineman, still learning all these other positions. And you told me, this guy doesn't guard grass. And I remember myself, I remember saying, like, what do you do? What do you mean, like, doesn't guard grass? What does that even mean? Well, there are guys who are like, I have hook curl. I'm gonna drop the hook curl, I'm gonna turn around and I'm gonna read the line of the quarterback and I'm just gonna stay here in my hook curl zone. And guys, those are guys that guard grass. Lawson does not guard grass. He has an understanding of where he needs to be on the field, and then he has an understanding what kind of route combinations are coming at him, who he can attack. He's gonna attack a receiver. He's not gonna sit back, wait for you to make a completion and come up and make a play. He is not garden grass. He's defending. He's. He's getting up and make plays. And the one thing I will say, and I. I love him. I actually liked him more than Campbell at times last year. I'll be honest with you. I don't. He's gonna run as well as Campbell. I. There are a couple things on tape where I saw. I was like, oh, man, I wish he'd. He was almost there and didn't quite get there. I think he's more of a mid fly four or five to a high four or five. Campbell ran the four fours and he's a little bit lighter, but just everything. All the other things you look for an inside linebacker in terms of the instincts, how hard he plays. I think he does a good job of, again, playing. He's a lighter guy, but he does a good job of playing off blocks, making it hard for guys to square up to him.
- [68:00]
B
He does pass breakup. His. Sorry to interrupt his pass.
- [68:03]
A
No, go ahead.
- [68:04]
B
I jotted it down as two 454, second quarter. Like, sorry, Georgia.
- [68:12]
A
Okay.
- [68:13]
B
And the, the tight copy. Sometimes the tight copies behind the offensive line. Sometimes it's behind the defense. This one was like, they were. They were in Georgia's zone. So it was like the tight copy. And they were close, man. You could see like, I could almost see his eyeballs from the camera, the camera angle. It felt like I was Carson Beck, you know, because I'm like, I'm. I'm staring him down. His read like, him. His studying of Beck and the jump he got the fast read and then the combination of that with that burst out of his. It wasn't even a pedal. It was kind of that. That like soft drop.
- [68:52]
A
Right. Right.
- [68:53]
B
Stalking like. Like praying. Like a praying, you know, bird. Like kind of like.
- [69:02]
A
Right.
- [69:02]
B
And they just batted it down. He couldn't get. Like it wasn't a. It wasn't a missed interception opportunity. But like most guys don't get there.
- [69:10]
A
Right. The word I was searching for is matching up. He will match up with someone. He's not going to guard grass. He's going to find someone to match up. He's not going to get caught out of position either. There's a. There's an art to it, man. It is not an easy thing to do. You can't get caught out. But you at the same time don't make it easy for the quarterback by like, I'm just going to let this all play out and then I'm going to go and make a tackle. He's not like that. He's aggressive. He will find someone to match up when the. When the routes have been declared. He's. I'm. He. I think he's really good in coverage. Not. And I agree with you, he's not the pass rusher that Hill is. He flashes a little bit in that area. He closes pretty well. He's going to chase with great effort. He's going to fight like hell to get to the quarterback. He's just not quite as versatile as Hill.
- [69:50]
B
I'll reiterate, like so much of this is predicated on full recovery, staying healthy, all those sorts of things. But it's going to be a fun race to watch those two linebackers as the. As the season goes on this fall for two of the premier programs in college football and like the leadership and like the quarterbacks of the defense, all that stuff. So they're going to be fun to track. All right, we are blowing past the. The stoplight of. We're already. We gotta go quick. All right, here's the name. Here are the names that we're going to do some quick. I called them tree toppers just like the pre top. But who. Who are these guys? I'm going to give you a bunch of names right now. Okay. Domani Jackson, cornerback from Alabama, Edge Keldrick Falk, Auburn cornerback J. Air Hill, Michigan linebacker CJL Allen, Georgia Edge LT Overton, Alabama. AJ Harris, cornerback from Penn State. Two safeties, Kamari Ramsey from usc, the UCLA transfer and Dylan the. From the Purdue transfer to Oregon Okay. Some other names too that you might hear as we come in and we're not even going to touch on them today but I, but I. We touched on one of them and we touched on two of them a lot actually three of them, maybe all four of them. Really we touched on a lot during the season but Davison Big Nosen, the cornerback from, from Ohio State and these are from talking to scouts in the league who's on their radar day two guys could be in the mix ascending all that stuff. Avion Terrell, cornerback from Clemson who we talked about a lot. Slot cornerback, like a lot of his traits but not sure he's a, he's a lock number, you know, round one guy like some people in some other publications or whatever you want to call put out there. Sonny Styles, who I love him but Mensch loves Sonny Styles and rightfully so. And then Suntouring Perkins, the linebacker, he's going to be an interesting, oh yeah, really light track star off the edge. Kind of goes counter to all this, the power based pass rushing stuff we're talking about. Okay.
- [71:49]
A
Two other transfers really quickly.
- [71:50]
B
Yeah.
- [71:51]
A
Payton going from Florida State to LSU had a good, both these guys two years ago had great years. And then my sleeper Texas State edge. Ben Bell is at Virginia Tech this year. Watch out man. Ms. Bosa Ben Bell only played in four games last year, 16 tackles for lost two years ago. He's, he's, he's, he's gonna be a mid round sleeper type guy that could do some things.
- [72:14]
B
Okay, let's just, let's rapid fire this thing. Give me a couple quick notes on, on these players. We'll go through the treetop guys I just mentioned. These are all guys that when I'm talking to NFL scouts and talking to different all star games, stuff like that, these are guys that are considered kind of that tier two maybe day two prospects. Okay and, and could rise to round one start with you mention cornerback Damani Jackson, Alabama six foot one, 201.
- [72:42]
A
I think he's got the length. When you look at that big frame, he's got the length.
- [72:45]
B
This kid was the, he set the.
- [72:47]
A
State record for the hundred meter in California. Not like North Dakota, California when he played at madder day. This kid can run. I think he's going to run in the four threes. I think he's that fast. So you're looking at that height, that weight, that length, that speed. He's got a chance to be, he's got to clean some technique issues up. Chance to be a really good Press corner. And he's already got the physicality and toughness element of it as well.
- [73:10]
B
All right, Edge Keldrick Falk from Auburn. This dude is 6 foot 6, 288 pounds. Awfully attractive.
- [73:19]
A
Big edges, man.
- [73:20]
B
There are.
- [73:21]
A
I love it.
- [73:22]
B
He's still developing, but he's a talented underclassman. I think he could make a huge jump this year. We'll see what he does. He had nine sacks and 45 tackles a year ago. He's a second year starter, defensive end, 81 career tackles, 45 of them last year. Eleven tackles for loss and seven sacks the last couple years. So this is a big year for Falk. All right, next up, Jair Hill. Next Michigan corner. Is he the next Michigan db?
- [73:50]
A
We'll see, man. You're betting on the traits his first year, our guy Denzel Boston, the Washington wide receiver put him in a blender a little bit. Now he only started. This is the first nine starts of his career and the traits are there and you're betting on on him developing. But there were some growing pains this year and he's going to have to make a leap. I will say what he's really good at, kind of Will Johnson here is that off cough off coverage, reading the receiver and breaking on the ball. There's a couple times he was jumping routes. It looks a little bit like number two in that Michigan. He wears number 20, but he looked like a little bit like number two at times. Gotta take a big leap. But it was only had nine starts and the traits are there. Could be a really good player.
- [74:29]
B
All right, next up, C.J. allen, another linebacker from Georgia.
- [74:32]
A
Right.
- [74:33]
B
It's like every year we get Alabama linebackers, we got Georgia linebackers. Georgia, they don't necessarily always get the fastest guy, right. But they get guys who play fast. He's 61 2, 35 and he is fast. He's 4, 4, 5, 8 is what kind of estimated. I like his background. You ready? He's a Georgia kid. He played it played high school, Lamar county and Barnesville. He played linebacker but he and had 84 tackles in the sack on defense in his last year. In high school he also was a running back. He had 16, 28.
- [75:07]
A
I freaking love that man. Because he has a feel for how a running back's going to attack the island scrimmage. I Love that.
- [75:14]
B
And 26 touchdowns. So yeah, that that note jumped out to me. He's a two year player, one and a half year starter. So two years ago he kind of jumped in and took over the Starting reigns and they've got linebackers every year. So like to win the job two years ago is pretty impressive. 28 games played, 17 starts this past year he was second on, on the, on the Georgia roster with 76 total stops. Excellent athlete with speed as I mentioned and I think in high school he ran what was clocked as like a 4 6. So. And you know you only get a little, you know it is pretty, you're talking like Billy Tucker and Lugan Mill and those guys. It is pretty wild like how accurate the 40 times are, how they translate. They get typically get a little faster but you get a range and you can kind of sniff out the guys who are really four sevens or I.
- [76:05]
A
I talked to him the other day. They're doing some AI on field speed stuff that he wants me to look at. It's going to be pretty interesting.
- [76:11]
B
That's awesome. And then 100 meter, he had 100 meter time of 111 6, 111 8. Now again, it's not the times that we've talked about for the wide receivers and the cornerbacks and stuff like that, but it's of note for a, for a 235 pound linebacker. All right, edge rusher staying in the SEC. LT Lebius I guess is, is his real, his birth name LT Overton? The edge rusher or the edge.
- [76:41]
A
First of all you see 6 foot 5, 283 pounds and you're thinking to yourself this is another one of these like big like 3, 4 defensive end edge setters. And he is that, do not get me wrong about that he is 100. That this dude is an elite run run defender. And I love that about his game. He's also a Texas A M transfer who came over to Alabama last year. But this dude at that size is absolutely an edge. And I was blown away by his hands rushing the passer. He led Alabama with nine quarterback hares last, last year. The reason that sack number is not high is because a lot of the other guys we talked about on this list, the bigger guys, he's got to be a little bit better about finishing but man he can get off blocks. He's got really active hands. He is smooth, he's not explosive, he's not violent, but he is smooth. Changing directions for a guy that size and then he's got that power that once he has the edge on you when he's working that edge, he's going to power through and not get knocked off course. I was, I don't remember liking a big Alabama edge as much As I like this guy, I always like him, but I'm always like, ah, he's a middle round guy that's going to come in and help someone's run defense do his role. Yeah, this dude could play man. And he is 100% an outside guy. He could play outside in a base four man front.
- [77:55]
B
Interesting. All right, next on our list, A.J. harris, cornerback from Penn State. He's a former five star guy who went to Georgia and transferred. So we got some work to do there. Like why was he not winning the job? Was he not competing enough? Was that, were there issues? They're willing to overlook a lot and they've got a pretty big budget. So what the why and this is we're in July. But former five star recruit, 611 84, got speed, stats weren't gaudy last year. Five pass breakups and one interception. But he's got the respect of the coaches in the league. He first are all, all Big Ten honors. Right. Talking to some scouts, he ain't there yet. Don't be surprised if he gets there this year. That's the best way I can kind of summer up, summarize, sum up what, what the conversations are like, keep an eye on him. Could maybe, maybe it doesn't happen this year and he's a mid round guy but like if you're looking for someone who could go, this, this A.J. harris guy from Penn State could be him. All right, the two safeties we're gonna rip through. Kamari Harris or, sorry, Kamari Ramsey. That was A.J. harris, the corner from Penn State, safety Kamari Ramsey from usc.
- [79:19]
A
Ramsey, the UCLA guy who transferred to USC last year. I was, I was pleasantly surprised by him in coverage. I think a big part of it is his instincts. I think he also has long arms. He does a good job of reading the quarterback and reading receivers and breaking on the ball and off coverage. I think he's competitive with tight ends. You using that robber role where you play him underneath, he'll step in front of receivers. He's not a ball hawk, he's not a center fielder. I think he has enough range and instincts to play cover a deep half, but he's never going to be that free safety center fielder in terms of the run defense. He's willing most of the time to get mixed up in there. He's got to be a better job of getting off blocks and he's got to do a better job of wrapping up so some stuff to clean up at the run game. But I think he's got the Toughest in the frame to get there.
- [80:05]
B
All right, last guy on this list, Dylan Thienaman. I hope I'm saying his name right. Dan will get me an answer soon.
- [80:11]
A
Dude, this guy's numbers are insane.
- [80:14]
B
And not just, not just the stats, bud. I popped in a little I news reeled them real quickly for these purposes. I haven't done a full report. I'm not gonna. I'm not ready to stamp them with anything.
- [80:25]
A
But it's fun, right?
- [80:27]
B
6 foot 207. You know he clocked in high school apparently or coming up like for huddle or they're a four, three, six.
- [80:37]
A
How many safeties you know that return punts?
- [80:40]
B
Return punts. Six 67 yards on nine punts last year led all big first two years of Purdue. Just transfer. So this is going to be his first year at Oregon. So let's go back to 2023. As a freshman, led the team with 106 tackles including four double digit tackling games. As a freshman, he was a five time Big Ten freshman of the week. Become the first defender in conference history to win any weekly award five times in a single season. Ranked third nationally with six interceptions. Led all freshmen in the country with 74 solo tackles. That's at all positions, linebacker included. Then 2024. Ah, he's gonna drop off. They'll get a scouting report on him. Maybe this the scheme allowed him. He led all Big Ten defensive backs with 104 tackles last year with that 4, 3, 6 speed. Started all 12 games for Purdue last year. Broke up seven passes, had a sack, handled punt returns. I'm excited to see him in Oregon, man. Really excited to see him in Oregon. All right. That's awesome. And then we gave you some other names as well. Yeah, this has been fun. Let's get out of here before we screw it up. Go ahead.
- [81:55]
A
I mean honestly, I think we did pretty well timewise. I mean for us. I think, you know, pretty good for us.
- [82:00]
B
Yeah, we. And, and we promoted screen the screener.
- [82:03]
A
Yeah.
- [82:04]
B
Gave some, some much due love. And we went through like 20 guys basically on the defensive side. So this will hold up through August. Heading into the NFL draft. We did, we did the work on this. I feel good about it. And we're going to be back early August. We start ramping it up towards college football. Get into some rookie stuff, training camp appropriately early. I mean now we know, now we can feel good about a mock draft match. This is why we do it. And in the off season maybe maybe.
- [82:34]
A
Talk about some tackles. I don't know, maybe. Maybe mix that in a little bit.
- [82:37]
B
No, that. That sounds like a December job. All right, we appreciate you. If you didn't do it, would you Please Google the McShay Report and subscribe? We got to grow this thing as we get closer to the season. And make sure you subscribe. Like all the stuff. Spread the word. As we get into August, people are going to want to be a part of this thing. We're excited to grow it with you. You see you soon must be 21 plus and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18/ plus and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit MD gambling help.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit Gambling Helpline ma.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 247 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York.
- [83:57]
A
Trip planner by Expedia. You were made to outdo your holiday, your hammocking and your pooling. We were made to help organize the competition. Expedia made to travel.