Emptying the NFL Draft Notebook With Albert Breer

Summary

The McShay Show — April 8, 2026

Episode: Emptying the NFL Draft Notebook With Albert Breer

Host: Todd McShay | Guest: Albert Breer (SI/The MMQB)

[Presented by The Ringer]

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Episode Overview

Todd McShay and special guest Albert Breer go deep on the latest NFL Draft buzz, dissecting inside intel on front-office thinking, top prospects, and the unique dynamics shaping the 2026 NFL Draft’s opening picks. With 15 days until draft night, they break down what’s real and what’s just noise, focusing on QB evaluations (notably the Raiders’ process with Fernando Mendoza), the Jets’ decision at No. 2, the persistent conundrum of draft value by position, and how several evolving league philosophies are impacting board decisions for the first dozen picks.
Note: Steve Muench is off this episode, grinding player reports.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Raiders’ Draft Process: Fernando Mendoza Locked at No. 1

[05:14] — [13:48]

• The Raiders’ conviction in Fernando Mendoza started early (“boots on the ground” across college campuses in fall 2025; multiple live games, including in harsh weather).
• GM John Spytek led comprehensive, multi-phase study:
  • Traveled to see Mendoza during tough weather games ([05:14]), key national matchups, bowl games, and the college title.
  • Simultaneous evals of Dante Moore and Ty Simpson—Moore staying in school essentially locked Mendoza as “the guy.”
  • Multiple in-person and virtual meetings, whiteboard work, dinners, pro day vigilance, and installation-style Zooms.
• Tom Brady’s hands-on role:
  • Brady’s tape study and unique eye for QB “makeup” (character, leadership).
  • Unique dynamic with face-to-face (first) meeting (“the last box to check”)—[09:31].
• Why Mendoza?
  • “Works his ass off. Is the personality different? Yeah, but he’s so comfortable in his own skin…” —Albert Breer [09:31]
  • Leadership/locker room fit considered last “check.”
  • “He’s got good—not great—physical tools... He really had to fight to find his place in college football...has the work ethic and the drive and all that stuff that Brady, I think, would really identify with.” —Albert Breer [10:31]
• Notable Quote:
  • “What was the most significant thing about the 30 visits? Probably getting face-to-face with Tom Brady.” —Albert Breer [09:31]

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2. Jets’ No. 2 Dilemma: Proven Pass Rusher vs. Project & the QB Non-Plan

[15:52] — [25:34]

• The internal debate:
  • Take David Bailey—the “bird in hand,” proven, safe pass rusher (best in draft, even if “not great versus the run”), or
  • Roll dice on Arvell Reese—the “cyborg” with higher upside, but more projection/development required.
• “A couple months ago, my info was they’re gonna take Bailey...even though Reese may have a higher upside.” —Todd McShay [16:54]
• Aaron Glenn (DC) job security & coaching dynamics:
  • Need for immediate impact (“you need somebody to help us now...to engage the locker room...to make sure you get better results.”) —Breer [18:31]
  • Comparison: David Bailey’s discussion echoes past “frame/athleticism” questions around Aidan Hutchinson by the Lions.
• Long-term QB strategy:
  • Jets are “so committed to” the 2027 QB class, want a “competitive enough” 2026 QB (e.g. Geno Smith) to “not win too many games” and tank organically—but can’t appear to quit [21:13].
  • “The great majority of your locker room doesn’t give a shit about your three-year plan.” —Breer [23:19]
• Notable Quote:
  • “Bailey probably does that (provides hope and instant impact) more so than [Reese].” —McShay [24:50]

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3. Cardinals at No. 3 and the Hybrid Defender Debate

[25:34] — [29:08]

• If Reese gets to 3, he’s likely the pick—“big need…would have been a really good fit for Jonathan Gannon” ([26:13]).
• Arizona’s bruised history with hybrids: “Does ownership bring up that Zaven Collins, Isaiah Simmons both sort of failed as hybrid picks?” —Breer [27:14]
• Cardinals open to moving back (“most of the teams in the top five would seriously consider moving out” —Breer [28:23]), but lack of star “prototypes” hurts trade-up market.
• Drafting off-ball LB/edge/safety/running back in the Top 10 is always a tough sell [29:08].

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4. Running Back Value & Giants’ Pick at No. 5

[32:10] — [45:31]

• No “prototype” offensive tackles or wideouts at the top—discussion pivots to value at:
  • Jeremiah Love (RB): The rationale for going RB in the top 5:
    • League trend: market correction—elite contending teams grabbed Henry, Barkley, Jacobs on cheap vet deals; KC signed Kenneth Walker.
    • “It’s hard for me not to connect this to what Todd Gurley meant for Jared Goff...what Zeke Elliott meant to Dak Prescott” —Breer [40:05]
    • Three-down, weaponized skill backs like Love “keep a young QB on schedule,” expand the playbook, and take pressure off.
    • Pro comp: Marshall Faulk/A. Peterson style dual threat. Love averaged 10+ yards per catch, best pass-catcher among RBs in draft. —McShay [43:47]
• Giants (No. 5): Tone-setter for new regime, likely between Sonny Styles (LB/S, Ohio State) and Maui Noah (RT, Miami). Styles’ fit echoes Harbaugh’s Ravens tradition: “The offball linebacker has been a really important piece for Harbaugh over the years.” —Breer [45:52]
  • Maui Noah would be a departure from Harbaugh’s “skill and front seven” focus; recent OL investments (Jermaine Eluemunor) further complicate.
• High football IQ (Styles, Downs) is extra attractive in the top 5-10.

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5. “Combo” and Value Plays: Browns at No. 6, Early Wide Receiver/OL/DB Market

[49:31] — [54:24]

• Cleveland wants the best “combo” of OT/WR with picks 6 and 24.
  • Consensus: Carnell Tate (WR) = only plug-and-play, true 1st-round grade wideout; other WRs (Lemon, Tyson, Cooper) sparkier but polarizing [53:13].
  • Spencer Fano (OT, Utah) cited for athleticism but short arms and limited LT tape; worry he’s not worth pick 6.
• WR Market overall: “There’s a bunch of good receivers, but...Tate is the guy.” —McShay [52:51]

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6. Teams/Landing Spots in Picks 7–12:

[54:47] — [62:01]

• Washington (7): Styles a clean fit for Dan Quinn’s defense (athletic, rangy LB type).
• Saints/Bengals (8/10): Edge rushers (Reuben Bain) and corners (McCoy, Delane) are prime targets.
  • Both McCoy and Delane now solid top-12 picks.
• Dolphins/Cowboys (11/12): Corners and Carnell Tate could fall to them if board breaks right.
• Chiefs (late teens): Unlikely to take a corner; trust Steve Spagnuolo’s CB development system.

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7. Safety Position Value & Caleb Downs Conundrum

[61:18] — [63:06]

• Can Downs fall to 12? Yes—safety value rarely justifies top-10 pick unless the prospect is a rare athlete/off-the-charts size (cf. Hamilton/D. James).
• Downs is “probably the best football player in the draft...[but] not an exceptional athlete, now you’ve got a bigger-picture question.”
  • “He’s so fundamentally sound and so smart and so dialed in...just a frickin’ good...probably the best football player in the draft.”—Albert Breer [64:17]

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8. Quarterback Class, Day 2/3 Expectations, and Development

[70:49] — [83:57]

• Don’t be surprised if only two QBs and two RBs go by Day 3 (Mendoza and Simpson at QB; Love and Price at RB) —Breer [71:44].
• QB philosophy: If he’s not a top-40 “starter projection,” teams wait due to position’s unique allocation burden [72:02].
• Ty Simpson: “You see Simpson do more NFL things on tape...but Mendoza is further along in his development arc.” —Breer [81:28]
• Simpson’s comp: “Brock Purdy” (high football IQ, less raw talent than Mendoza), but lottery ticket upside depends heavily on system/fit.
• Expansion on QB development: Third-year breakout trend (Mendoza, Cam Ward, Jayden Daniels, Joe Burrow). Unpolished, volatile, but huge upside if trajectory continues—harder to trust in Simpson, who lacks a full arc of development [78:54–80:39].

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Notable Quotes & Moments

“He’s got good—not great—physical tools…and he crushes it…has the work ethic and the drive that Brady, I think, would really identify with.”
—Albert Breer on Fernando Mendoza [10:31]

“The great majority of your locker room doesn’t give a shit about your three-year plan.”
—Albert Breer on tanking in pro football [23:19]

“What prototype? There’s no Joe Alt. No Miles Garrett, no Julio Jones, no Calvin Johnson this year.”
—McShay on limited blue-chip top-of-board prospects [28:39]

“It’s hard for me not to connect this to what Todd Gurley meant for Jared Goff…what Zeke Elliott meant to Dak Prescott…”
—Breer about the value of offense-shaping RBs [40:05]

“I think Tate is the…stamp him. Six isn’t too high. Anything below ten is a steal.”
—McShay on Carnell Tate [52:51]

“If you have those questions about Lemon, about Tyson, about Tate, does Kenyon Sadiq have a better chance to be a top-five tight end than any of these guys have of being a top-five receiver?”
—Breer exploring bold Chiefs scenario [66:50]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Raiders’ Process & Mendoza: [05:14]–[13:48]
• Jets at No. 2 Debate: [15:52]–[25:34]
• Cardinals at No. 3, Reese, Arizona trade-down market: [25:34]–[29:08]
• RB/Tackle/WR/Hybrid Value Comments: [32:10]–[54:24]
• Washington and Defensive Value at 7+: [54:47]–[62:01]
• Safety/Downs Position Value: [61:18]–[65:09]
• Chiefs at Late-First Round: [65:22]–[68:25]
• “Don’t Be Surprised If…” Final Thoughts: [68:33]–[83:57]

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Bold “Don’t Be Surprised If” Segment

• McShay: WRs go later than expected; size/length/edge-valued players like Keldrick Falk (Auburn) and Zion Young (Missouri) sneak into late 1st [68:32–70:49].
• Breer: Only 2 QBs & 2 RBs before Day 3 (see breakdown in section 8 above).

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Tone, Style & Dynamics

• Informal but expert, loaded with anecdotes from front-office convos and player workouts.
• Overt insider banter: “I didn’t expect to keep you this long, I apologize.” —McShay [84:11]
• Candid on what’s “noise” versus legit, with skepticism toward groupthink and public narrative around the draft.

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Conclusion

This episode is a deep-dive, information-packed look at how NFL front offices are making early first-round decisions in a year light on “prototype” blue-chippers but rich with unique positional debates. Raiders/Mendoza’s process, Jets’ pragmatic approach, new definitions of positional value, and the ebb and flow of league trends in running backs and hybrid defenders emerge as key themes, all punctuated by Breer and McShay’s plugged-in, candid dialogue.

(Ads, intros, and outros omitted)

Transcript

[Todd McShay]

Mock drafts are flowing. Buzz is swirling all around. And we've got Albert Breer here, one of the great human beings and insiders in this business. We're going to talk through the first round of the draft. We're going to find out what he's hot on right now. And this is a special episode we're excited to share. Guess what? Just 15 days till the NFL draft. Mench isn't with us today. He's grinding out reports, but I know he's good. Tucker, roll that beat, please. Hey, there he is. As promised, Albert Brer. Bert. How you doing, brother?

[Albert Breer]

I'm doing great. How you doing, Todd?

[Todd McShay]

How are you? Good, Good. I can give this long speech. You and I have been, like, weirdly, directly and indirectly linked since, like, our early 20s. Like, you knew guys that I grew up with, like, the canals and the Democruses. We lived in the Back Bay of Boston together and kind of didn't even really know at the time. We both moved around the same time to the South End. And then now we're like two towns away in the South Shore, and our. And our son's going to the same football clinics with the M2P. So that's right. Like, you're listening to the McShay show, presented by FanDuel, and we'll all be listening to all the names called in this year's NFL Draft. But with FanDuel, you don't have to just listen because FanDuel has all kinds of bets on where players will land. You know, I love this stuff. Not only can you bet on who will be drafted first overall, but you can also bet on whether a player will go in the top five, top ten, and so much more. So if you don't already have it, be sure to download the FanDuel sportsbook app today. Must be 21 and older in select states. 18 plus in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler, call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. I don't know if I'm chasing you, you're chasing me, or just it's a coincidence.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah, I still remember. I think I was like at. So I lived in Hanson street in the south, and me and my wife did that. We had our first. Our. You know, and. And I remember, like, running, walking into you. There's like, a coffee shop on the corner of. I think it was on, like, Shamat and on Shaman on the corner of Shama and Hanson. And I was like, walking down there I'm like, holy crap, Todd. Like, I had no idea you lived here.

[Todd McShay]

And so I didn't know you lived there either.

[Albert Breer]

So. And then sure enough, like a couple weeks ago, I run into M2, which is the passing academy up here, and your kid's a quarterback and my kid is a, is a, is a little fifth grade tight end. And so.

[Todd McShay]

He's not little.

[Albert Breer]

He's.

[Todd McShay]

He's not little. Yeah, he's like as tall as me.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah, he's, he's, he's got good length. He's got, he's got good lovers. So, yeah, he'll, you know, we'll, we'll. We'll see where that goes. But that, but yeah, like, that was just, I mean, what was that, like three weeks ago? Wasn't long ago.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah. So. So yeah, we've had a bunch of weird chance encounters like that for sure.

[Todd McShay]

But. But we've always been kind of working together and I've always enjoyed our conversations. Like every draft it feels like for I can't remember more than a decade. You and I have gotten on the

[Albert Breer]

phone a couple times. I'll give you credit too. You and DJ are the two guys, like, for me, like, where at the beginning, like, I'm coming out of the super bowl and I, and you can verify this, like, you two are the guys I always call as like, okay, like I need to get caught up. Like now I've been sunk in the playoffs for the last five weeks and I've got an idea of who the great college players are. But like, you guys have been so invaluable to me and kind of getting me caught up in all of what's going on with the college players and everything else.

[Todd McShay]

And so we get you started and then, and then you, you the deal for us with, with a lot of the information stuff. So let's get to that. Yeah, I'm curious because I like, this is the time of year, right? You got to kind of sift through is you, you've got a really good strainer of like, what's real and what's not yet. The owners meetings and conversations you're having daily. Let's start with the. Let's start with the Raiders. Okay. And then I, after that, I want to just find out it doesn't have to be the second pick, third pick. Like, what are you hot on? What are you hearing? What's most interesting to you? But let's. What has been. I feel like when you know the pick in this far in advance with the Raiders and Fernando Mendoza, everyone. It wasn't dissimilar last year. The only question about Cam Ward, it wasn't about oh, he's this kind of player or he's this kind of fate fit. It was are the Giants going to offer enough to move up, you know.

[Albert Breer]

Right, yeah.

[Todd McShay]

Which they tried and it didn't happen. And the same thing with Mendoza this year, except everyone knows there's no offer that can be made. Brian Greasy, who I worked with for several years, close family friend like he, he's been working with him, you know, in a non official role, getting him, Mendoza prepared and obviously with the Shanahan and the Kubiak ties. But what, what do you know about the process? Like what, what led them to Mendoza? Like no question about it, he's our guy.

[Albert Breer]

Well, the Raiders, I mean like really this started in the fall for them and you know, it wasn't, it's, it's John Spytech, it's Brian Stark, it's Brandon Hunt, Brandon Year again. All these guys working in with the Raiders. Then they had an idea. We may not be great this year in 2025 and we may be in position to go and get a quarterback so we better go and look at everybody. And so like there was a lot of boots in the ground over the course of the fall and it's actually interesting, you know, John Spytic, their general manager, really kind of dug in at the end of the season on, on, on Mendoza specifically. And so there was a trip over Thanksgiving weekend where they went and saw, and I, I, I, it was Brendan Sorsby, I think it's Cincinnati. And I, I think they were playing TCU that weekend. I think it was the Friday night and that was, that was at Cincinnati and then they shot over to Purdue, what I think was the coldest game in Purdue history to see Mendoza play live there. So they get to see him in the weather, you know, on a, on a, on a Saturday at Purdue. And then they saw him in the Peach Bow against, against Oregon. And then they saw him in the national championship game of course, as everybody knows, against Miami at Hard Rock. And so you know, they'd had, they'd had eyes on him for a while and getting to see him there at the same time they were doing a lot of the same work on, on Dante Moore. And so there have been a number of quarterbacks but I think by the time they got to that point, the national championship game, really the two guys that they had looked at said like, yeah, we'd be comfortable taking this guy in the top five or Fernando Mendoza and Dante Moore. And so then, you know, of course they're diving into and they, and they

[Todd McShay]

didn't know their draft slot at that

[Albert Breer]

point and they didn't know their draft slot. But so you had an idea you're drafting, you're gonna be drafting pretty high. And so it's like these are the two guys that really kind of, I think, stood out to them. And so, you know, like they're going through that process and everything else. And you know, then as they're digging into the tape of both these guys and looking at all of the Dante Moore tape from UCLA and Oregon and all the Fernando Mendoza tape from Cal in Indiana, because that's how it always works now, right, Todd? There's always multiple schools to, to, to, to look at with these guys, you know, I think crystallized for them. And then of course, Dante Moore decides that he's going to go back to Oregon fourth college season. And so, and so it was a

[Todd McShay]

great decision for him. But you do, you have to kind of wonder. Right, right. And I think it's a long process at that point.

[Albert Breer]

Like, I think it's just, it's not that they're going to stop looking at the other quarterbacks, but, but it's like now it's like, okay, like we really got to get to know Fernando, you know what I mean? Like, and make sure that all of the background work that we did in the fall checks out. And so there was a, you know, there was of course the 15 minute formal at the combine, which they went through, and there's only so much you can get from that. But he checked the boxes there. And then actually from the owner's meetings, they, you know, Spy Tech and Kubiak went straight to Indiana for, for, for Mendoza's pro day. And I'm, I don't want to miss any of the names here, but it was Brandon Year again, their college director, their assistant gm, Brian Stark, you know, the vice president, player personnel, Brandon Hunt, the offensive coordinator, Andrew Ginoco, the quarterbacks coach, Mike Sullivan, all meeting, meeting Spy Tech and Kubiak in Bloomington and they do a whiteboard session with them. They see him work out with his teammates, they go to dinner with him, you know, and then of course, you know, this week they have the 30 visit. They've done one zoom and they have two zooms left. And those, I think, as you might imagine, are going to kind of double as an install with him so he can hit the ground running there in May. So like, I, I think They've had the idea for a long time that it was going to be Mendoza really going back to Dante Moore, going back to school. You know, to me, I think the. The important part for them was, okay, we've done all this research. He seems like a great kid. The physical tools you like, and there's a lot to.

[Todd McShay]

To.

[Albert Breer]

To look at here where you say, okay, like, you know, works his ass off. Is the personality different? Yeah, but he's so comfortable in his own skin. You're okay with that? I think what was the most significant thing about the 30 visits? Probably getting face to face with Tom Brady, you know, and I was going

[Todd McShay]

to ask, so what's Tom's role legitimately in all this?

[Albert Breer]

So I. I can't tell you the. All the nuts and bolts of, like, everything that he's done, but I feel confident saying he's looked at the tape. You know, he was obviously there in person and you know, what scouts look for. I'm sure Tom was looking for the same thing when he was on the ground in Miami. There in pregame, they're looking. How do they interact with their teammates, right? Like, what sort of leader are they in game? Like, you're looking at, like, a lot of things that aren't happening between the lines. You know what I mean? Like, so I think with Brady, I think you might have been one of the first people that actually said to me that you thought a lot of, like, Mendoza, the makeup, the story. I think. I think you were the. One of the first. Yeah, yeah.

[Todd McShay]

We talked about it, like, December.

[Albert Breer]

I think, like, Brady will identify with it, right? Like, because it's like he doesn't. He's got good, not great physical tools. And, you know, he really had to fight to find his place in college football. And, you know, then he gets there and he. And he. And he. And he crushes it and he's able to compete for a championship and he has the work ethic and the drive and all that stuff that Brady, I think, would really identify with. What I would be interested to see, and I think this is going to wind up, you know, and I'm planning on. I'll do a big story in the draft on their whole process. What I'd be really interested to hear about at this point that I don't know would be in that face to face with Brady. Yesterday. How does.

[Todd McShay]

That was yesterday.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah, it was yesterday. How does the. The. How did the personalities mesh, you know what I mean, with Brady and. And Mendoza? Because I do think for Tom, he's acutely aware of how important the locker room is, you know what I mean? Like in the makeup of the locker room and how the quarterback fits in the locker room. And so nobody knows more about that than Tom Brady spending, you know, 24, four seasons and in NFL locker room or 23 seasons in NFL locker rooms and, and with two franchises and with different types of guys, different makeup of teams, all that different stuff. So I think that that would probably be in my mind, at least the last box to check. Because I think when you get to those final couple zooms, my guess would be that's going to be guys like Clint and Janoko actually installing the offense with Mendoza.

[Todd McShay]

I. I had a call with a head coach in the league right after the season and oftentimes if I'm going to talk to a coaches, like right after the season, getting involved and have quarterback need, maybe not taking one, but going to do the due diligence. And he said one of the first things he did with Mendoza was he's like, I saw the interviews. He's like, you know, during the season, he's like, I'm not diving into these guys. I see some of the games, but I see some of the interviews. And he's a different cat. Right. I've got a little bit like the Kirk Cousins type, you know, like just happy to be alive. And comes off as different than your normal quarterback interview, as we've all seen.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

So I actually, the first thing I did, I wasn't even watching. He's like, I put on some tape and I was watching after incompletions, interceptions, him getting hit, big plays, him taking off running. I was watching. He goes legitimate. He goes. I'll go back and like really dive into the, you know, the third. The third and sevens, the, the cutups. Right. He's like, I was just. I just spent like 30, 40 minutes watching the country boys and the city guys. Y do. Do one of them interact, which I thought was interesting. Do one of them interact more with Fernando and he's like, every single time the reaction is exactly what you want from both. From both. If you've been in a locker room, you know, you've got. You've got this group and you got that group and everyone's like this. But maybe sometimes. So that. That was fascinating to me.

[Albert Breer]

That is really interesting because that shows a guy who can break down those walls, right?

[Todd McShay]

Yes. Yes. And that everyone. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what your background is. So Ty Simpson was never involved because I feel like that's become kind of the story of. Of this draft, whether manufactured or not.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah, I don't. I. I don't. I don't think so. You know, like, doesn't mean they didn't study him. I mean, he was part of their study in the fall, you know, like, when they were going through all of it. I don'. Never Really a factor here.

[Todd McShay]

It sounds like it would have been a Mendoza more.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah, this was not. I mean, for the Raiders. Like, I think the. I. I think the. The risk you take with talking about the Raiders, like, in. In their process is that, like, if you say, like, oh, yeah, like, they had a pretty good idea of which way they were going in January, it makes it look kind of like the last three months have been a coronation. And that's not really the case either. You know, it's more like they did so much work in the fall and they were so far down the line that it was like, okay, like, we have an idea of where we're going here. It doesn't mean we're ruling anything out. You know, of course, there's the opportunity to trade the pick that would come along and those calls get made and everything else. But, you know, I think as much as anything else, it was just, I think, conviction that this is the best guy. And look, like I would say this too, Todd, like, two years ago, it's exactly what the Bears did with Caleb Williams. Like, the Bears were trying to wrap up their process with Caleb Williams by the beginning of March. Like, they actually initially had his 30 visit scheduled for the day they got back from the combine because they wanted to have it done so they could start installing the offense with him. Right. So the Bears in a similar spot, like, you know, it was just kind of like, okay, like, we need to. We need to get this rolling early and get ourselves in a position where we know what we're doing, you know, and, you know, so, you know, sometimes, because so much of the public doesn't really dial into this stuff the way that you do or I do to some degree, not nearly as much. But a lot of the public isn't really dialed into this stuff. And, you know, until, like, March, it's like, it looks like, oh, well, did they. Is this just them, like, you know, you know, putting a crown on the guy? And it's. There's a whole lot more to it than that.

[Todd McShay]

So let's transition now. That's. That's. That's information that, like, the brain, like the Brady just had a call yesterday and. And you know, the, the process. I think the whole thing is fascinating. I find here, here's what I find interesting is we. You transition to pick number two, right? Yep. With the jets, early in the process, I had conversations with people that I trust that are kind of dialed in and it's always been this debate, do you take the bird in hand or do you take the. What could be like the cyborg. You know, Micah Parsons talking about Bailey, who's the proven pass rusher. You know what you're getting not great versus the run. You're going to have to kind of work through that, kind of develop that part of him, scheme it a little bit. But at the end of the day, these pass rushers are getting paid second most amount of money behind quarterbacks in the league. Not to be great run run defenders. It's to get after the quarterback and get home. And that's what he does better than any other pass rusher, player, defensive player in this draft.

[Albert Breer]

Yep.

[Todd McShay]

Then you get Arvell Reese and you look at like, man, he just started rushing the quarterback. Yeah, it was a first year as a starter. He picked up everything. Patricia asked. We had Scott Goldman on from AIQ who works for the lot of teams for like the, it's. They call it intelligence testing, but it's kind of like reaction and what they can process. And he said he, like, Arvell is like, like, like a rare bird when it comes to his ability to multifunction and, and like to be able to play some off ball. And so all those things in mind, a couple months ago, my information was they're going to take Bailey. Right. Because it's proven, you know what he is. Even though our Vel may, may have a higher upside. But then you started all the information. You know, I even talked to someone within the organization and they talked about how we traded. Everything's 20, 27. Yeah, we traded. We actually made that deal with. Was it Indy? I forget what. No, Dallas, the Cowboys, they offered a, they offered a first known as the Cowboys.

[Albert Breer]

The Quinn and Williams. Williams chose to. They, they chose to have a 27 first rounder and a 26 second rounder instead of the other way around.

[Todd McShay]

That was in the negotiation. Right. Initially it was you could take a first this year and they, they work to get that for next year.

[Albert Breer]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

So you start to think, well, maybe they take 20, 26, develop Reese and then you kind of. That's. That's what you started to hear. Now it's back to. And it's not like, not, not really A secret. It sounds like if. If the information's right that David Bailey is going to be the guy at number two. Is that what you're hearing? What. What do you have for us?

[Albert Breer]

I actually talked to a couple teams that almost talked like it was a fade accompli. Now we'll see. You know, the information gets better, a little better as you get closer to the draft and these guys are coming out of. You know, there's an interesting, like I would say, way to tie this to Aaron Glenn's job security too, you know, is that, you know, like, I think if you look at Arvell Reese is a little bit more of a project and a little bit more of a. He's gonna be pretty good for you right away, but, you know, you may have to wait a year or two to get the best out of him versus, like, David Bailey is out of the box. Going to be a really good pass rusher for you. I'm not saying Aaron Glenn's doing this to save his job, but do you naturally look at that like we need somebody to help us now, you know what I mean? Like, and we need to make sure the. And not even just a job security thing, it's like continuing to engage the locker room where you're able to get them better results because you're playing better as a team. Let me ask you this. There's some. I listened to the way that people talk about David Bailey, and it hit me the other day that it kind of reminds me a little bit about. Of how people talked about Aiden Hutchinson.

[Todd McShay]

Huh?

[Albert Breer]

And Hutchinson, it was like just a demon as a pass rusher. Plays really hard, explosive. But like, does he have the pla. The frame to hang out to. To. To play against the run?

[Todd McShay]

Linear. Yep.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah. And I don't know that it's not

[Todd McShay]

great for as athletic as he is, he's not one of those, like, change, like redirect quickness. Like outside. Like he. He's got a little bit of tightness, tall. So. Yeah, but, but. So, I mean, my gosh, does he find a way to get home? And you say Glenn had. When he's healthy.

[Albert Breer]

Glenn had Hutchinson. You know what I mean? Like, so, like, I just sort of look at that and like how the Lions over those years really had trouble finding pass rushers outside of Hutchinson. And if they didn't had to have Hutchinson, God, what would they have done to get after the passer? The last few years, it was really. It wound up being perfect for them that they. That that was a guy they really needed and they struggled when he was out. You know what I mean? Like so you're talking about an organization that just walked away from Jermaine Johnson and Quinn and Williams and you know, yes, you want the guy who's going to be best for you for the next five years but based on the position that they're in, you know, as a coaching staff and then you know how that relates to. To Darren Muji who's probably got a little bit more rope than AG has, does that push you in the direction of Bailey? You know. So I mean I actually had a

[Todd McShay]

really interesting conversation Bert with. With someone who, who knows, let's put it that way. And I was just, I was curious about so what what are the jets gonna do if it was a follow up to what I just told you? Like I got the information that like the organization is so committed to as. As a couple Others are the 2027 quarterback class. And so my follow up was okay, if that. If that's kind of the mindset who's quarterbacking this year and like what. What are they looking for? And the answer was someone that's going to be competitive enough that the fans don't. Don't riot. They win enough games and there's. And some like someone who's got some leadership, some, some ability to come in kind of hit the ground running but also someone who's not going to win too many games where they have to package too many picks to go up and get a guy, you know and so. And then like it felt like moments later, you know they get the perfect guy and, and Geno Smith and. And so that kind of tracks with we got it. We can't this year can't be like an NBA tank that I'm already seeing on get up this morning. They're complaining about like how do we change the draft lottery. And you know, like it can't be that level in that market and things and heads aren't going to roll.

[Albert Breer]

So dude, you're speaking to the choir on that too. Because I just think are preaching to the choir. Like I just think like a lot of people look at those sorts of things that are like well why don't they just throw in the towel on this is it doesn't really. That doesn't work in football. You know what I mean? Like you.

[Todd McShay]

Unless. Unless you force someone to stop playing because I mean you're play.

[Albert Breer]

I mean how many of you know but how many of your players. You have to think about it from this perspective. If you're if you're trying to understand the way a coach or GM thinks, how much of your roster has no idea what team they're going to be on next year, 80%.

[Todd McShay]

I go through that free agent tracker all the time when I'm looking at team needs and it's like there's like 15 guys that are. This is their.

[Albert Breer]

No, they're on the team next year. Right.

[Todd McShay]

And so that every game is a tape.

[Albert Breer]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

And so for the other 31 teams.

[Albert Breer]

And so, and that's the thing about it is that most of like the great majority of your locker room doesn't give a shit about your three year plan. You know what I mean? Like, you have to sell to them. Like, I'm going to put you in a position to succeed as a team and maybe more importantly as an individual so you can continue your career right now. Like, I'm going to do that for you right now. And that's what Aaron Glenn and Frank Reich and all those guys are facing now is like, all right, like they had their year where it didn't go very well and there were all kinds of issues that first year and now are these, there are these questions going into year two and God, is the heat going to be turned up if they're 0 and 5 or 0 and 6?

[Todd McShay]

Yes.

[Albert Breer]

Like, how do you keep the team on board? And I think the reality of it is like, if you're just thinking about it from the perspective of the people in that building, it's like, like. And look, the people in Detroit speak so highly of Aaron Glenn as a leader and what he's capable of being a head coach. And if you really believe in what AG is trying to build, you want to give him the tools to try to establish that in New York.

[Todd McShay]

Right.

[Albert Breer]

If the second pick of the draft is a project, then that becomes a little harder, you know. And so yeah, there's a real life component to this where it's like we have to find ways to provide hope for our players where our players know, you know, not only is there a light ahead, light at the end of the tunnel in 27 or 28, but we're going to be competitive this year and we're going to give you a chance to compete at the highest level this year.

[Todd McShay]

You know, Bailey, and Bailey probably does that more so than.

[Albert Breer]

And that's the thing. It's like, I, I'm fascinated by Reese because I think that there's like, and you and I have talked about this, that that new genre of player that's like this hybrid, I think Michael was sort of the forerunner. Not that we'd never seen it before, but, you know, like the Micah Parsons Jihad Campbell, Jalen Walker, Abdul Carter, guys who've played on the line and off the line. You need to have a plan for those guys. You know, it sounds great. Like, oh, you can do everything. Yeah, but what is he going to do for you? You know? And, you know, they've got, you know, I think with David Bailey, at least it sounds to me, from the people I talk to more like, yeah, everybody knows what they're going to do with him. You know what I mean? Like, there's no mystery in what you're going to do with him. Whereas with the Arvell Reese, there is a bigger question when it comes to that.

[Todd McShay]

Well, we're on our Valeries. So now the player that. That a week ago or two weeks ago, maybe you thought wouldn't be available at number three for the Cardinals. The Cardinals also have a needed offensive tackle. I'm also told the Cardinals are hoping the phones ring and could maybe move down and acquire additional pick. They have a quarterback need that people are talking about. Maybe they trade back into the first round or they sit there, what, 33 or 34. And. And. And go, go Ty Simpson there. What do you think? If this is how it plays out? We both believe strongly that it will. Is it Arvell Reese at 3? I.

[Albert Breer]

I think so. I just think it's a big need for them and look like I. I think, you know, I do, too. Just so you know, Arvell Reese would have been. I think Arvell Reese would have been a really good fit for Jonathan Gannon, and it's easy to forget that his defense is still there. You know, Nick Rollis. Yeah, it was held over as the defensive coordinator. So they're probably going to be. They're effectively going to be running the same defense they were running before. You know, we've seen Jonathan Gannon and that defense, and Nick was there in Philly when they had to be creative with a guy like Hassan Reddick and move a guy around, you know, So I think. I think that there's definitely a place for it. You know, Connor Orr, who's my, you know, who I do. Who I podcast with at si, work with an SI did bring up a good point, and I hadn't even thought of it this way. Does the Cardinals have sort of failed with hybrids over the last 10 years, and his ownership bring that up at all? Because wasn't saving Collins kind of that way wasn't. Isaiah Simmons definitely was not ball on ball, but as a.

[Todd McShay]

He's like the 8th overall pick.

[Albert Breer]

Right? So, like, is there. I.

[Todd McShay]

It's, it's.

[Albert Breer]

It's different guys in charge. Right, but does that become a little bit of a factor there, you know, where, you know, they, they took two guys in the first half of the. Of the first round that were sort of these hybrids, like, what exactly do you want them to be, long term? And they both sort of failed, you know, like, so that, that's, that's the one caveat I put on all of this, is that. Is that in any way any sort of factor? And they've had success over the years with hybrids too. I mean, I think Honey Badger was probably a good example of it in a different way. Right. But you know, I just think it's an interesting element to the decision of whether. Whether or not you take a guy

[Todd McShay]

like this at 3. Does Reese being there make add to the trade value? Because it feels like from where I sit, it would. Even though we're talking about Bailey, I

[Albert Breer]

guess it depends on like how big you see the drop off between Reese and Bain. Right. Like. Or whoever your next pass rusher is. I think probably be the next guy. And Bane doesn't fit anybody. Everybody.

[Todd McShay]

Have you heard anything about Arizona moving out?

[Albert Breer]

I think, I think everyone. I think most of the teams, obviously, not counting Vegas, I think most of the teams in the top five would seriously consider moving out. Maybe every other.

[Todd McShay]

You heard of anyone that, that. Is there anyone that you're hearing up?

[Albert Breer]

Not yet. Not yet. I mean, I think that'll. That'll crystallize as we get closer. But you know what? I think the problem with that is right now is that you don't have like the prototypes, right? Like, you don't have the Miles Garrett, Julius Peppers, Jadevi and Clowney. Defensive end. You don't have The Julio Jones, A.J. green, Calvin Johnson receiver. You don't have Joe Alt at left tackle.

[Todd McShay]

It's a hard enough pill. It's a hard enough pill to swallow.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

I promise you, knowing that if I draft Jeremiah Love and we'll get to pick four in a minute, he's what, the seventh, eighth highest paid running back in the league and position that I don't want to be spending that much money. It's hard enough to draft a safety in the top 10. We've seen great guys. Hamilton goes what, a 14 overall? I think it was.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

12. Yeah. Ramsey falls to what, 18? So, like. Right. It's hard enough to use a top 10 pick on off ball linebacker, safety, running back, you know.

[Albert Breer]

Right. I mean the two best draft might be a running back in a safety, you know.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, yeah. And, and, and yeah. And maybe the, the third one could be an off ball linebacker converting to, to, to edge that you're not 100% sure of. We just talked about that with our Val Reese.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

And I would argue maybe the fourth best player in this entire driver. One of the top four players in this entire draft. I've got him number two over my board. I wouldn't take him number two overall but I've got Sonny Styles as the number two player in this room. I am more convicted in Sonny Styles than any other player outside of Jeremiah. Love that he's going to be an absolute sensation in the league because of how multiple he is. But to trade up for yeah. Said safety, off ball linebacker, conversion player, running back is like, I don't know how you can stomach that. Yeah.

[Albert Breer]

I mean. So let me ask you this then. Would the 23 lions be an interesting case study to look at what they did because they got killed for taking Jameer Gibbs and Jack Campbell in the first.

[Todd McShay]

That was one of my favorite fights to push back on because I just, I love, I love their draft and everyone was just murdering it.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah, they got killed for it. And like you look back at it and like Brad Holmes, I mean I love the simplicity of it. They're the best players. You know what I mean? Like yeah. And Gibbs was a home run at 12 and Jack Campbell's first team all pro this year at 18. And then even in the second round they Porta and Brian Branch who are both like high end players, you know. So I mean there is like that, that piece of it too where it's just like do you take a pass rusher you have questions or reservations about. Right. Or do you take a safety or a linebacker or a running back you're damn sure is going to be really, really good.

[Todd McShay]

So it brings us to, to pick four if it real quickly if it's not Arvl Reese at three because of maybe some of the reasons we just talked about the conversion player, their history.

[Albert Breer]

I mean you look kind of like Maui Noah then.

[Todd McShay]

Maui Noah. Yeah, that's, that's where I would lean.

[Albert Breer]

Here's my question with that. So like you always try to look at where these guys are coming from, Right. So Michael Leflore is coming from the Rams. The Rams a few years ago really leaned in on two areas and said we are going to Just keep stocking these areas. Those two areas were offensive skill and defensive front.

[Todd McShay]

Front.

[Albert Breer]

And if you see like this year, sort of a correction to that and the way they've gone in on corners and going and trading for Trent McDuffie and Siling, signing Jalen Watson. But for a long time, for, for a few years there, they really focused on drafting and developing offensive skill guys. So that's Kyron Williams, Blake Corum, Terrence Ferguson, last year, Puka Nakua. And then on the defensive front, the amount of guys they've just, hey, keep feeding it. You know what I mean? Like, so it was. It was Braden Fisk, it was Byron Young, it was, you know, Jared Verse, it was Kobe Turner. Like, they continued to feed that. And I do look at that. Like, the Rams have sort of had an approach over the years. And Mike LaFleur is also coming from San Francisco with Kyle Shanahan, where he spent a bunch of years where those two teams outside of the left tackle haven't invested a ton on the offensive line. Like, they've picked their spots, but you haven't seen them invest. You've seen them try to get away with less on the offensive line at times. And they already have Paris Johnson at left tackle. So do they double down on the offensive line with that high end?

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, that.

[Albert Breer]

It would be a little bit against the way. It would be a little bit against the philosophies that. That Michael Fluor has been most exposed to.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, I, I tend to agree, and I just think that there's a different grade. And I, I think Maui knows the best tackle in this class. I think he's. If you take him, I don't know, 7, 8, 9, 10. That range, I'm like, good, but not when those other players are still on the board. And Arvell Reese is one of those other players. The McShay show is brought to you by FanDuel. Do you guys know that you can bet on the NFL Draft with FanDuel? That's right. You can bet on everything, including which team will draft which player over unders on draft positions, what position a team takes first, and of course, who's going number one overall. I don't like those odds there. Basically, if it's draft related, you can probably bet on it. I'm just telling you right now, the one I'm most fascinated by is Ty Simpson. Where does he land? He's definitely going in the first round. Everyone says I can't find a team right now that will take him in the first round. Arizona if you ask me right now, that could be the team that's probably in the pole position, but also the Rams. There's a connection there. If you can get the good odds on the on Ty Simpson of the Rams, that's something to investigate. Okay, so if you want the chance to turn your mock draft into some real cash, FanDuel is your place to get in on the action. Just open up the FanDuel app. You're officially on the clock 21 plus select states or 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1-800- GAMBLER, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut this episode is brought to you by Zip Recruiter. Out of everyone in the draft, I'm keeping a close eye on a couple quarterbacks that nobody Cole Payton from North Dakota State, Taylor Green from Arkansas. Day two Quarterback prospects that could change your entire organization. They've got developmental upside. They're not where they need to be right now, but if they hit, they could be stars in this league. The whole deal with scouting is finding difference makers, right? Having even one standout player that can make a world of difference on or off the field. It's the finding part that's hard. If you're hiring, you know the struggle. It can take months and thousands of resumes before you find what you're looking for. Unless you use ZipRecruiter. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com McShay that ZipRecruiter.com Mcshay along with its smart matching technology, ZipRecruiter just added a new feature to make the hiring process even smoother. It puts qualified candidates who've also shown an interest in your role at the top of your list, so you can talk to them first. Plus, you can see why those candidates are interested in their own words. Cut through the standard and get to the standouts with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And now you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com McShay that's ziprecruiter.com Mcshay meet your match on ZipRecruiter.

[Albert Breer]

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[Todd McShay]

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[Albert Breer]

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[Todd McShay]

I had an interesting conversation with and it was Publix. This one was. We had it on the show. Mike Borgonzi, the general manager who's of the Tennessee Titans he was with the Chiefs for a long time. Right. And I wouldn't share this unless it was on our show but I gleamed from it some interesting stuff. I I brought up this because I've had this theory for a long time. If you go back and study whether it's at Napoleon with they got Peyton Manning and everything was about getting closers and defensive we got to get and I talked to Bill when he came to work at ESPN he's like once you get your quarterback he can make up for 10 other guys since right? I you've got to. There's no, there's no Peyton Manning on defense so we've got to load up on that side. And I've watched the Eagles over the years. I've watched the Packers, I've watched the Ravens, I've watched Kansas City which I brought to his attention. I had to kind of remind them the year after they got Mahomes and they were sure that he was the guy. They had six draft picks because they had to trade up to go get Patrick and all six were defensive players. Right. And so all these really good high end organizations have shifted the focus. So I asked him the question about Cam Ward. You got, you got your guy. You bring in, bring in Brian Dable who I can't think of a better person to. To develop him especially knowing having the conversations with Brian. I think publicly it was known how much that he. He liked Cam and then loved Jackson Dart as well. He was pushing, he was driving that bus to send all the compensation. He told a funny story. Borgonzi did the day ball like cornered him at a pro day and was like listen, I'm telling you Abdul Carter, man, what a great player. Yeah, you're going to want to take him and trade back. We'll give you a lot here. Anyway, with all that said I said so so is your mentality to kind of fall in the footsteps of what you've seen and really focus on the defense. And I wasn't even asking about this fourth pick right. But he's like yeah, you gotta. He's like go back every single one of those. Bill had Marvin Harrison and Bill Had Edger and James and we had. We had weapons, we had Tyreek, we had all. He's like. It just so happened that it was time to reshape the. Or reshift the focus of the defensive side. Yeah, I'm saying all this because I remember Schefter came out and was so adamant about they're not taking Jeremiah Love at 4. Prior to that, I had Jeremiah Love mock there. I kind of dug into my information. I know Brian pretty well. I know how influential he can be when he's a dog with a bone in that draft room. And I just, I thought Jeremiah Love would be not just the rushing element, but also as a pass catcher. And even Borgonzi was like protection, play callers and playmakers. And so now I'm back to. I don't know if that information was accurate or not. I just think Jeremiah loves the best thing as an organization. Organization you can do for Cam Ward.

[Albert Breer]

So I think it's interesting the way that the running back value thing has swung back around to. I, I thought it was really interesting two years ago when you had Derrick Henry, Saquon Barkley and Josh Jacobs out there in the market. And it just so happened that it was the Ravens, the Eagles and the packers that signed those guys. And I remember thinking at the time, before those guys ever played it down for those teams. That's interesting that three teams that are not. There aren't idiots running these teams. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, like, these are established organizations all went all in at the very top of the veteran running back market. And basically, I think what they were saying to everybody is this position has been devalued to a point where now it's a value, you know, because Saquon Barkley cost you, if you're Philly, what Darnell Mooney cost Atlanta, which is crazy to think about. Right. But that's the reality of it. And so I think the value of the running back's been reconfigured to some degree. Like you mentioned Borgonzi, like Borgo's old team in Kansas City. Where did they just do like, oh, Andy Reid doesn't invest in running backs. They signed Kenneth Walker, you know what I mean? At the very top of the market, the Super Bowl MVP at the very top of the running back market. So, you know, I do think. I mean, to me, like, I just. It's hard for me not to connect this to what Todd Gurley made for. Meant for Jared Goff when he broke out in under McVeigh in 17. What Zeke Elliott meant to Dak Prescott in 2016 when he was starting as a rookie in Dallas. I mean, even. What, if you want to take this back to day ball, what Saquon was able to do for Daniel Jones, and how important Saquon was to steadying DJ And I think there's so much of it, like, to me, like, the, the value of guys like that, like, this is the. This, to me, is the new mold for the running back. Right. It's. You can play all three downs the way Marshall Falk could. You can run between the tackles like Adrian Peterson. Now, that's not to say every one of these guys is a combination of the two, you know, but, like, there are elements of both on a lot of these guys now that wind up going in the top 10, if you look at the seven or eight guys who've gone that high over the last dozen years. And so what does that guy do for a quarterback? To me, he gives you easy completions. So that's part of it. But. But maybe more important, he gets you in second and six and third and two more often. Yeah, right. Schedule, like. And you're on schedule. And so, as you know, Todd, and I think the easiest way to put this to the listener is if you're in third and 11, the offensive playbook is like this, and the defensive playbook is like that. Right. If you're in second and six and third two, then the offensive playbook is like this, and the defensive playbook is like that. You know?

[Todd McShay]

Yeah.

[Albert Breer]

Sorry to the people listening. Can't see my, My, my hand motions,

[Todd McShay]

but basically, I think they can insinuate.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah, yeah, Effectively. Effectively. What I'm telling people is if you're in second and six and third and two, your offensive playbook is wide open, and that's going to make things so much easier on you in developing your young quarterback. And so, like, I just see, like, somebody like Jeremiah Love, and it's like, he's going to help you put points on the board. He's going to create easy completions for your quarterback. He's going to keep you on schedule. He can affect so many different parts of your office. He makes your offensive line better because you're in less obvious passing situations when he's in the field, you know, and

[Todd McShay]

so, like, I just averaged over 10 years. We're looking at the scouting report right now. Yeah, it's the ringer.com McShay. Have you gotten on this tool yet, Bert?

[Albert Breer]

I need to get on it.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, get on it today. It's your homework assignment. It's. We're proud of it. We're excited.

[Albert Breer]

The next time I get on, I'll be fully versed in it, I promise.

[Todd McShay]

But he averaged over 10 yards per catch too. Which, like I do. Right. We ripped through all these running back probably. I mean, it's the point running backs, very few average over 10 yards per catch in college.

[Albert Breer]

Not to cut in, but like, it's to the point where when I ask scouts now about Jadarian Price, they're like, well, you didn't see him catch the ball a lot. But it's not really his fault because they had love. Like, right, right, like. Like that. Which is what was best for the team was to throw to this back, not this back, you know, so. So we don't know that he can't do it. It's just they didn't ask him to do it because they had somebody who was so freaking good at it. And Jeremiah Love, he didn't get the chance to do it as much.

[Todd McShay]

So that leads me to this because I feel like we're all kind of in that in. I'm not saying it's definitive. And who knows what happens in the next couple of weeks. You're talking about Tom Brady. Just meeting with Mendoza yesterday on Zoom. Like there's a lot that can still happen, but if these four picks kind of play out the way we think they could.

[Albert Breer]

Yep.

[Todd McShay]

I think one of the most intriguing decisions with a new head coach in John Harbaugh, with an organization that's trying. And I've talked to so many GMs over the years, like their first draft pick, you know, with an. Either with a new coach or they're. They take over an organization. There's a. It's not just picking the right guy like he's going to help our team as a player. It's picking the right guy to kind of set a tone. And so I'm sitting there with the Giants and we've got a bunch of tone setters and really good players. I don't think it's going to be Caleb Downs, but I want to get your information. I think it honestly will come down to two guys and you tell me if you're hearing different. I think Sonny Stiles would be my pick and the Ohio State linebacker and then Maui Noah, who we talked about the big physical right tackle who moves well, but he's a right tackle. You, if you're doing the old traditional, he's a right tackle type who played his career at right tackle. At Miami, I think it comes down to those two. And I'm curious if you're hearing anything or what your thoughts are.

[Albert Breer]

So, like, I think Styles makes a lot of sense for them, makes a lot of sense for Washington. So I think this is right in the range of where Styles goes, you know, and the off ball linebacker has been a really important piece for John Harbaugh over the years. They've always had a really good one. Right.

[Todd McShay]

Bringing in Tremaine Edmonds. Does that affect.

[Albert Breer]

You know, I don't think. No, I don't think so because I. I think it's more like that's been a bedrock guy for John Harbaugh over the years, whether it's Roquan Smith.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah.

[Albert Breer]

You know, obviously C.J. mosley, Ray Lewis, at the beginning of his time in, in Baltimore, he's usually had a bedrock guy there. The one thing with Maui Noah here, and I agree they have to get the offensive line right, but from what I understand, they just resigned Jermaine Illumina or, I know, million dollars a year. And like, my understanding on a Luminor is he sort of views himself as a tackle, you know, so would he be willing to go inside the guard? Or do you look at it as, we'll move Maui Noah inside for the time being, knowing that he's eventually going to play tackle, you know. Right. There'd be some moving pieces here. Downs is interesting to me though, because, like, just like, again, like, I'm looking at John Harbaugh's history, which is. Which is the best guide you can have in these situations. And when he and Wink Martindale reimagined the Ravens defense back in 2018, when, when Wink got promoted to defensive coordinator there, one of the biggest pieces of it was we want to play defense like other teams play offense. In other words, we want to dictate terms to the offense. And the way to do that for them was we want to be as flexible as we possibly can right up until the snap. And the biggest piece of that for John Harbaugh was having a heavy safety. It was having Eric Weddle there, right. And then they go from Weddle and then that winds up falling on Kyle Hamilton. And then you see some of the guys who came out of there. Mike McDonald, you know, winds up in Seattle, they draft Nicki Minwari to be that guy.

[Todd McShay]

Right.

[Albert Breer]

And you look at Jesse Minter and how much they put on Derwin James to be that guy in Los Angeles. And so, so much of a key. And that defense has become, you know, one of the premier schemes in the league and you see other teams trying to replicate it and obviously John brings to Mark Denard Wilson with him to run it. I just think of the football IQ of Derwin James and Kyle Hamilton and Eric Weddle and Nick Eamon Warri.

[Todd McShay]

Elite, elite. Elite for all of them. But. But even worry. But even worry had traits that.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah, right.

[Todd McShay]

And even more was good. I'm not saying bad, but good.

[Albert Breer]

But maybe not quite the other level.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah.

[Albert Breer]

What's Caleb Down's number one trait?

[Todd McShay]

Oh, absolutely. You know, smart. He's truly one of the smartest players I've ever evaluated.

[Albert Breer]

So like that doing this and that's the two. Like to me like that styles and downs, like are green dots for you. You know, like they're like they're both capable of being the green do defense and probably early in your career. And so like both of them make sense for me with the Giants, you know, Maui Noah, again, like they have to get the offensive line right. That's such a huge part of what they're going to do. So I could certainly see a scenario where just wanting to make sure the offensive line gets fixed could wind up winning the day. But I do think like just the football IQ of the two Ohio State guys of downs and style and what they were able to do and what was asked of them last year playing for oh my gosh is gonna. Is gonna really endear them to John Harbaugh and his staff.

[Todd McShay]

I think we know every. I think with Cleveland at 6 transitioning here, we know it's not quarterback. I think we know in a perfect world they would get the best combo at pick second six and 24 of wide receiver and an offensive tackle. We talk a lot about combo picks, you know, whether it's a first and second round pick. In this case, it's two first round picks.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

How you have to kind of assess the situation at each positions that you're looking at. Right. I, I get it, I get it that Spencer Fano is the, is the soup du jour. Right. And I get the relationship, you know, and I get the, the emphasis they put on the offensive line. And quite frankly, I applaud Andrew Berry. I really do. Like, let's fix what needs to be fixed up front first before we start, you know, talking about a Ty Simpson or whatever it is. I just don't know that he's worth the 6 overall pick. I think Cornell Tate is worth the 6th overall pick. But then you run the risk if you're playing the combo game. Of so who's, who's left when we get there? And I'm looking at it and I'm saying well Cleveland really needs a left tackle if we're being honest. Right, right. And, and, and he's got the traits in terms of the athleticism. Fano does, but the short arms and, and he's played. He played I think 11 starts his freshman year and then the last two seasons been a right tackle. Lomu who will be available later in the first round. He's played left tackle. Freeling. I don't know if he'll still be there at 24. Monroe Freeling, the Georgia tackle, has played left tackle. How what are you hearing on, on this like the Tate versus or, or possibly even Maui Noah if it's, if it's one of the Ohio players at five for the Giants.

[Albert Breer]

So do you think like, I mean I don't know. Do you look at this and say if Maui know is there you it's becomes academic for you. It's easy for you who's playing.

[Todd McShay]

So, so where are we playing them?

[Albert Breer]

I guess right tackle because they just paid the guards. Right. Like so they just paid. They just paid Tevin Jenkins. They just paid Z. Johnson. So I would think like that you're probably playing whoever comes in. I would guess right tackle now. I mean what do you do with dejuan Jones is a question I like. I. They've got so many moving pieces. I just feel like for them if this is me. Right.

[Todd McShay]

Yep.

[Albert Breer]

If there's a offensive lineman worthy of going there, like I think you really have to consider it regardless of position. Just figure it out, you know, because they've had. Had such a hard time getting there, you know, so. And trying to fix that area and obviously the Jedrick Willis thing and what happened there. I think they had a cascading effect over the years. So like I look at it like do I have a better chance of getting a really good receiver or and this is just to your point, right. Or a really good tackle at 24. Am I just crossing my fingers that, that, that Freeling is going to be there at 20, 24 if I'm, if I'm taking Cardinal Tate at 6.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah.

[Albert Breer]

You know what I mean? Like. No, I get it. That sort of becomes the problem. Right.

[Todd McShay]

I think it's going to happen in this wide receiver class in general. To be honest with you. I think there's a bunch of good receivers. I really.

[Albert Breer]

Because you don't have a Julio.

[Todd McShay]

I, I think Tate is the, is the. I don't want to say the only true first rounder, but he's the guy that. It's like it for me. Stamp him them. You know, and, and, and, and six isn't too high. Anything below ten is a steal. Right. Makai, Lemon. There's. There's some things that like, yeah, I'd like to get them later in the first.

[Albert Breer]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

Jordan, Tyson, there's some things. And, and he's one of the most polarizing players in this draft class. There was.

[Albert Breer]

I mean, I've talked to teams that don't like him at all.

[Todd McShay]

Like the thing I've heard, I've talked to teams recently that have set, that have second. Second round picks. I've had talk to teams that are like, yeah, I'd love to have Lemon like, like late first or. But I've also talked to teams. I think with Lemon it's like three guys.

[Albert Breer]

I mean, just to me it's like, like Tate seems to be the one that the people are most. There's a better consensus on if that makes sense. Right?

[Todd McShay]

Yes.

[Albert Breer]

With Lemon I think it's more a conversation about his ceiling and I think with. With Tyson, it sort of feels like it's more of a question about his makeup. Right. That's the way it feels to me.

[Todd McShay]

And, and the durability and. Yeah.

[Albert Breer]

I mean, I personally think. I think there might be some teams that think Omar Cooper is the second best receiver in the draft. You know.

[Todd McShay]

Yes.

[Albert Breer]

That may sound crazy and I think,

[Todd McShay]

I think it's going to be a tougher decision for the Rams at 13 than people maybe think. And I think, I think both Makai and, and Cooper will are great fits for what Sean wants to do if they wind up going receiver there. But I've also talked to teams that have a second round grade on, on Cooper too.

[Albert Breer]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

So my point is I. We've got seven offensive tackles, we got a slew of edge rushers, and then we've got those like 11 guys at different positions that are kind of at the top of the board. Right. So it's going to be interesting to see with those wide receivers. It feels like Washington at 7 is going to wind up kind of benefiting that one of these great players is going to.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

Like, if Jeremiah Love doesn't go four or five, which we believe he will, he could be sitting there. If Caleb Downs doesn't go, he. I think he's the parachute for Washington. I think Sonny Stiles probably is the most likely to land there.

[Albert Breer]

But, But Styles would make a ton of sense For. For Dan. For. For Dan Quinn, like the big long, athletic. Like, I mean, you know, like basically whatever. What Pete Carroll's defenses have always loved in linebackers, guys who just can cover ground. You know, like, to me, Sonny Styles would be a. A perfect fit for Washington.

[Todd McShay]

And then I hear. I think edge could be in play. The Saints are kind of in. You know, Reuben Bain would make sense to the Saints at 8.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah. Let me ask you this. I think. I think Delane has started to play to. To show up in this area.

[Todd McShay]

I think Delane and McCoy.

[Albert Breer]

I think Delaney. I think Delane could go as early as 8.

[Todd McShay]

I actually think some teams now have McCoy higher than Delane. And I think t. And I know teams have Delane higher than even the public perception.

[Albert Breer]

Right. Like, I think he's could be gone. I think both those guys could be gone in the first 12 picks.

[Todd McShay]

Oh, I think they will be.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

Obviously. Because I was looking at last night, like since Cincinnati, we always said they said they have needs all over their defense. They really, if you look at it, they really need a cornerback or an edge. Right.

[Albert Breer]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

So that. That's pick 10. I don't. We'll get to the Chiefs in a second. We can kind of end on the Chiefs. I don't think the Chiefs would go cornerback there even though they had the departures, because I think they have other things in mind. But we can talk.

[Albert Breer]

They also trust. I mean, once just nugget there and we'll get back to them. I think they really trust the ability of Steve Spagnolo.

[Todd McShay]

I totally agree.

[Albert Breer]

Develop that position, you know, and I think it's been bears out. It's why it was a. A huge factor in why they let Trent McDuffie go. You know what I mean was they love McDuffie. A plus person, a plus player, all of it. But they, you know, they had to make choices. And one of the things that was really, I mean, between what they have with Steve Spagnolo and Dave Merritt, like their ability to develop the corner position, like, they feel really strongly like we can find guys to play that position. It's an important position. But, you know, like, if we're looking at investing in receivers or address, like, that's one place where we feel good. We can get guys later on and develop them.

[Todd McShay]

So I'm looking at this with. With New Orleans at 8, which I'm. I think Bain is a possibility, but I honest, I'm with you. I think cornerback makes. Is. Seems to be where they could go. I've heard Both Delane and McCoy. So we'll see. I think it's absolutely. Now it becomes interesting, if Bain sitting there at 10, is that their edge? And it certainly could be, but they also could take the other corner. I think Miami at 11 could take a corner. I know Dallas would love to have one, but I don't think either of them gets to 12. I actually don't know that either of them gets to 11, is the point I'm trying to make.

[Albert Breer]

How much does McCoy not playing last year, like, affect how you look at him?

[Todd McShay]

Teams were scared to death before that pro day.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

Well, why isn't it. You know how it goes.

[Albert Breer]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

This is what you do for a living, and you've as dialed in as anyone I know.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

Like. Like, he's not competing. I don't. And he's got that agent and then that agent, like. And look at what happened with. With Shemar last year. These are conversations I'm having. And. And so now we're going to deal with that. And I haven't seen him compete. He hasn't competed since. Since January. Since last January, like, of 2025, you know, so, like, we're talking 12. We're talking 14 months, you know?

[Albert Breer]

Yep.

[Todd McShay]

And. And then he goes and runs in the four threes, and it wasn't. The four threes is great, but from people I've talked to, it's like, it was. It was a. Like an epiphany or reminder. Oh, my gosh, the way he worked out, the way he moved in his. The position drills, that 2023 tape and 2024 tape. And we've seen other. Like Derek Stingley kind of mailed it in his last year, and so it was a concern. I'm not saying it's not. And it varies from team to team, but I think. I think right now the. The stock market is like, you know, with. With McCoy.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah. And I think it's interesting. It's interesting with McCoy because I think a big part. He's somebody, like, for the reasons you laid out, the process was more important for him than a lot of other guys in that, like, I think a lot of people looked at him as like, this is a raw man cover corner, like, and you aren't sure how much more he can do. And so the testing, the interviews, all that different stuff, I think we're going to be ways for teams to try to figure out what his capacity was for all the other stuff. Whereas I think with Delane, it was interesting talking to people about Delane because Like, he wasn't as good at Virginia Tech. Right. Like so.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah.

[Albert Breer]

And there were some questions. It was like, sometimes he looks like lazy is not the word, but it like looks easy times.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Albert Breer]

It was like. It was like, is he that fast? And then he runs 4, 3, 8, or whatever it was, and it's like, no, he's just that smooth. You know what I mean? So I guess I think both these guys have helped. One. One guy.

[Todd McShay]

Let's just boil it down real quickly. One guy is very clearly, they're both fast. One guy is like your prototypical oily hips, man to man, sticky coverage. That's McCoy. He's. He's a better athlete if you're just testing the athlete. The other guy is one of the more instinctive corners you'll ever see. But also really fast and also really good in coverage. His ability to switch from man to man to zone from one play to the next. And like the Belichick. The Belichick Saban principle of like, have you ever listened to them talk about DBs? Like their. Their biggest trait is when the ball's in the air, how do they react? Is it easy speed or are they're out of phase? Can they. And. And Mansour Delane is. Is phenomenal in that regard. So again, I. I think they're both. There's a chance they're both top 10 picks. Which leads me to my last question before we get to the final thoughts. If Caleb Downs doesn't go five, is there a chance he falls all the way to 12? And I'll follow up in a second. I know, I know we both have a. A love for Caleb Downs.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

But I'm just trying to separate what I watched on tape and what, you know, in Ohio State. Grab all that. Is there a scenario he falls to 12?

[Albert Breer]

Sure. Like, I think that's possible.

[Todd McShay]

And is that the parachute?

[Albert Breer]

Just because, like, I. It's so much of it comes down to not the player. It comes down to the position and how you value the position. And I mean, for better or worse, there are people who are going to look at him and say, we generally don't take guys that high at that position anyway. Like, Kyle Hamilton was the 14th pick in the draft. Derwin James, I think was 18. Now, he had the injury, but yeah, I think it was 18. Right.

[Todd McShay]

The injury. Hamilton had the slow 40.

[Albert Breer]

Right. But you have.

[Todd McShay]

And Downs doesn't have a 40. And he's probably not.

[Albert Breer]

He's probably not as big. Right. Like, and if you look at those guys Like Derwin James and, and Kyle Hamilton are like, you know, build a player. You know what I mean? Like, they're totally right. And like, they're like, so, so Caleb Downs. Like the questions for teams is going to be like. Because they're always looking at comps, right? Like, and I think that that's the big thing is like, for example, like Ruben Bane, right? Like I was talking to a team the other day and we were talking about Ruben Bane, how you like kind of have to figure it out with him with the arm length. Like, do you have to move him around and create matchups and that sort of thing. And so I asked like, is there an example of a guy with, you know, under 31 inch arms that's made it as a pass rusher? And they're like, that's the problem, you know, is that like we are like. And that's analytics, right? Like, it's like we're looking back through our history, we just can't find one. And you know, so I think that that's sort of the issue with downs. It's like how often does a player at his position with his dimensions go that high? And so I think for some teams, that's going to scare them.

[Todd McShay]

Well, it's 20, 20 years. 20 years with that arm. Like, and that's. I don't think people went. But I just read the research. 20 years and 20 years from what I, what I read. I haven't confirmed it, but 20 years since we've had a double digit, digit sack guy.

[Albert Breer]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

In the league.

[Albert Breer]

Right, right. So like, and that's what you're looking at with downs is like, okay, he doesn't have a 40, but you suspect that maybe he's not 4 4, right?

[Todd McShay]

Yep.

[Albert Breer]

He is not 6 foot 3 the way that Kyle Hamilton and Derwin James are. He's a great player. But if you're going to make an exception and take a safety in an area where you normally don't take him, then he's not an exceptional athlete. Like, then that be now, now, now you, now you got a bigger picture, you know, question which is like, can we take him that high? Right. And I think Caleb Downs is going to make Pro Bowls. Like, I, I've never, I don't know if I saw him. I watched him obviously, every snap for two years. I'm not a scout. Want to make sure that people know that. I don't know if I ever met, saw him miss a tackle, you know, in the game against Miami, I believe he forced two fumbles that just bounced right back and bad luck, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, he made game changing plays in that game that like. And you just saw it over and over again. There was a hit against Northwestern his sophomore year at Wrigley where he ran into the tight end. You might remember this, the tight end who was much bigger than him, six, six, whatever. Stopped that was like. I remember watching like that hit and then you see the hit against Texas that ends the game. And it's like he is so fundamentally sound and so smart and so dialed in and such just a fricking good. Probably the best football player in the draft. I think the thing that teams grapple with with him is more is what you see what you get is there no growth left, you know, and. And sometimes that can be a problem for teams when they're drafting that high, especially at a position that isn't corner or left tackle or edge rusher or receiver.

[Todd McShay]

Last one. And you just talked about his name. If I start to worry about Bane, like just for. If you. If he doesn't go eight in his corner there and if.

[Albert Breer]

Well,

[Todd McShay]

the chief's going to do something crazy like they. They typically have, which seems crazy at the time. And all of a sudden it's a all pro player.

[Albert Breer]

I'm gonna throw an idea out at you.

[Todd McShay]

Okay.

[Albert Breer]

What do you think about Kenyan Sadiq there?

[Todd McShay]

I don't think it's the craziest.

[Albert Breer]

I mean what year about Kenny and Sadiq is like great effort as a blocker but probably never going to be like your Y tight end. He's probably more of an F tight end that you're gonna have to move around, right?

[Todd McShay]

Yep.

[Albert Breer]

And who has a role, that role sitting in their offense for someone in a year, Right. You know what I mean? Like, and then who.

[Todd McShay]

And who better to scheme up away with both. Both Kelsey and Sadiq and for the time being, right?

[Albert Breer]

Yeah, for the time being. And like I just like look at it and I've just heard so much stuff about Sadiq where it's like you don't see tight ends like this and it almost like I almost feel like there's like a little Shannon Sharp here, you know, like in the sort of player he is like just kind of like rocked up and he's not six six, he's six two, six, three, whatever it is. But like he's such a weapon and you can use him so many different ways. And if you have those questions about the receivers, right. Like that there's not a superstar there, like even Carnell Tate, who's the most complete guy. Like, he never had to be the number one guy. Right. Like, he always. Like he was never the one that was drawing coverage.

[Todd McShay]

Yes.

[Albert Breer]

Jeremiah Smith, you know, so if you have those questions about Lemon and about Tyson and about. And. And about Tate, and you're looking at. You're saying, does Kenyon Siddiq have a better chance to be a top five tight end than any of these guys have of being a top five receiver? Do you just swallow hard and take him at nine?

[Todd McShay]

That's interesting. Yeah. And I think was a Schrager yesterday, had Jordan Tyson there, and I'm talking to people in the lead and he even said he's like some. I got a text from a GM and he was, you know, like, I don't think he goes in the top 20. So, like, it's fascinating, like, beauty beauties in the eye of the beholder this time of year. But that. That's.

[Albert Breer]

I think that's the cool thing of this year's draft is, like, what it lacks. And I think what it lacks in, like, the prototypes, right. Like the. The guys who are built in the lab to play the position. Right. Like the Joe Ald at left tackle, the Miles Garrett at defensive ed. Because you don't have that. I think there's so many variables in the top 20 that could.

[Todd McShay]

You know, there's a lot of drama as we. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you're looking if that's Sadiq there and it's the other corner back to. To the. To the Bengals at 10. I mean, Miami could be sitting there with Carnell Tate still on the board. The Cowboys could be sitting there with Caleb Downs still on the board. You know, it's interesting. All right, let's finish. This is how we always finish. It mentioned with us. I. I should have. I think I did mention in the open Menches. We are in crunch time, so Mench is grinding out his last handful of players. So we gave him the. The. Not the day off, the day off of coming on here so he could finish up. But we always. This time of year we try to finish with.

[Albert Breer]

With.

[Todd McShay]

And I'll get it started so you can brainstorm. I don't like to dump this on you. Don't be surprised if.

[Albert Breer]

Okay.

[Todd McShay]

Doesn't have to be something you're sure of, but just like, don't be surprised if I'm kind of. I'm going to go with this. We just, we talked about the wide receivers, right. And I think the Wide receivers are going to go a little bit later as a whole, I think they're going to be bumped back a little bit from what maybe the early thought was, where it's like, oh, we've got Carnell, Tate, we've got, we've got Lemon, we've got Tyson, they're all going to be top, top 15 picks. And then we've got this, the second wave of Denzel Boss or Omar Cooper and Denzel Boston and Concepcion and all these guys, right? I think it's going to be backed up for all the reasons I just mentioned with the 10, kind of 10, 11, 12 players that belong at the top in the top 15 picks, then you got offensive tackle, the remaining offensive tackle and edge rushers. And so, yeah, to my point, I haven't seen two names mocked recently or anyone in over a month talking about these two names. And I still think they're first rounders because I think the league, the league, as we just discussed, values, size, big guys, length and pass rushers and guys that can develop, right? And when you get into the bottom half of the first round, you're talking about playoff teams that maybe don't have this urgency or don't have and that can get. Can utilize a player in a certain situation as a rookie and develop them because maybe they have a starter, but he's coming up on contract, whatever it is. Keldrick Falk and Zion Young, Auburn and Missouri, respectively, are long athletic for their size. Played their asses off, right? Their tape is. And Falk didn't have the great year we expected from him this year. So I put on the tape and I was expecting, well, maybe he was a contract year. That guy plays his tail off. Zion Young is a certified lunatic. And I mean that in the best way as a defensive lineman. Right. I think those two guys, when we get down into like the mid-20s, teams are going to look and say, yeah, like, I love Cassius Owl, I love Denzel Boston, I love all these other guys, wide receivers and some outliers and all that. I just, I want an NFL football player. And I think those guys could go. So don't be surprised if, even though you haven't heard their name, Falk and Zion Young are two guys that come off the board late in the first round. I'll throw it to you. I'm much more.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah, so, no, that's, that's really interesting. You know, the one thing I was, I was talking to somebody about Keldrick Falk yesterday and they started describing him and the name I thought of was, was, was Dio De Ningbo who you know, played for the Colts, placed for the Bears now was hurt last year. But like, you know, the point was like has to be a scheme fit because he's kind of a tweener. Right. Like he's bigger than your typical end. Like do you play him inside? There's not a lot of like I don't think there's a ton of evidence that he can play as a deep tackle, but maybe he can play some pass rushing down. Yeah, yeah. So like you're projecting a little bit there. But you know, that's interesting and I do think size becomes a factor. All right. So I've had to think some about this. I would say don't be surprised if there are only two quarterbacks and only two running backs off the board as we go into day three. I think it's possible.

[Todd McShay]

Interesting that I don't disagree.

[Albert Breer]

Huh.

[Todd McShay]

So I think I, I don't totally disagree.

[Albert Breer]

I've heard that from obviously Mendoza. We the dies cast. We know that that's he's the first pick. I think Simpson goes somewhere in the second round and I think that that could be it until you get to the fourth round.

[Todd McShay]

We've seen that before.

[Albert Breer]

There's a trend over the years with this like where quarterbacks go in the first. For a ton of quarterbacks going the first round, I don't have the numbers in front of me. I could to get them for you, but I did look this up the like last year, quarterbacks go in the first round. They don't go in the second and third rounds. Well, why is that?

[Todd McShay]

Because you only go in the second. They usually go early in the second and they're right. Yeah.

[Albert Breer]

Right. And the reason why is because you can only play one of them. Right. And so either a guy is going to be a long term. You either view a guy as a long term starter for you. Right. Or you're not taking them in the second or third round because there's somebody in another position that will be, that

[Todd McShay]

can be a nickel corner or a number three or four receiver. Yep.

[Albert Breer]

In other words, it's like there's not like a rotation of three guys to that position. So he's either playing for you or he's not. And if he's, if you do view him as a long term starter, you're probably just going to take him in the first round. Right? Right. So that wouldn't surprise me. I've also like the more I've dug in on the running back class, you get the Arkansas kid, you got the two Penn State kids. Like, like I. Just outside of, outside of the two Notre Dame guys, Jeremiah Love at the, at the top of the first round. And then Jadarian Price somewhere in probably the first, what, 50 picks. Like, I just, Yeah, I don't sense much going on with any of them.

[Todd McShay]

I can see that. And, and, and last year's running back class was absolutely sensational. One of the best we've ever had. Go back to, like, I forget the year was it 2017 with McAffrey and Fournette and all those guys. There's only six running backs taken in the first three rounds and then 20 of them came off of the board on day three. It's wait for the run to happen at that position. You outlined the quarterback. Exactly. But wait for the run. It's almost like, hold like I'm gonna get my other guys and then when it starts to happen, I like five of them and they, they all can do something that helps in our, in our rotation for sure. I think, I think you're absolutely. That won't shock me at all. The hard part for me is this. With the quarterbacks, the running backs, I'm on board the quarterbacks. You know, the Nationalist. Right. National. Blessed. Oh, that, like the scouting list. Right. I think the number one overall grade and take that for what it's worth. But I'm just saying, like the perception of Garrett Nussmeier coming into the year, he was like, if not the number one, he was certainly the number one quarterback. So you've got that and an injury filled year. Now he's healthy and people really like him. And obviously at worst case, you're getting a great backup who's been around the game his whole life and his dad's an oc. The other part is you've got two developmental guys that I know some teams are really intrigued by and if they land in the right spots. But where do I want to take them in? Cole and, and Taylor Green? Yeah, yeah. Green from Arkansas, Peyton from North Dakota State. I'm telling you, these guys, if they landed with an Andy Reid or a McVeigh or a Koc or, you know, the Harbaugh McDaniel, they could be something really intriguing. But I got to get a swing tackle. I've got to get a fourth edge rusher. I've got to get a number three corner who could be a starter. I got to get a number three, four wide receiver. So that's the debate. I don't Disagree with you, but this year's gonna question that and Carson Beck too. Go ahead.

[Albert Breer]

I want to ask you a question on that, on Garrett Nussmeier, because he's really interesting to me. If you look at how you viewed Garrison, Garrett Nussmeier at this time last year, is it similar to how you view ty Simpson now?

[Todd McShay]

100%. And I said, I said this before. I'm glad you brought this up. Ty Simpson's tape for the first nine games, Bert, was. Is exactly what I thought Garrett Nussmeier was going to be this year. Pre snap control, on schedule, footwork, timing, urgency to everything he does, anticipation, throws. Okay, well, now we're moved. Okay, let's check, check. Kill.

[Albert Breer]

Kill.

[Todd McShay]

Let's move this guy. Band coverage. Gotcha. Balls out. That's what I thought. That's what Nussmeier was trending towards in 2024. He was never healthy and no one ever, no one knew the extreme of it. He got injured in fall camp and they coach gets fired, all that, all of it. I think he can. It won't. Now is he going to be this high level great starter like history tells us those guys are bigger or explosive and all those things. But Nussmeier, yeah, I just wonder about

[Albert Breer]

that because it's like if he didn't, like, I don't know, it's like you almost feel like, like in a case like that, are you penalizing the guy for going back to school? You know what I mean? Like, yeah, like maybe benefits long term from the experiences that he went through because he did get knocked on his ass. You know what I mean? Like, and now he does have to evaluate that, which is like, comes back to that whole principle, the Golden Rule over 25 starts, right? Like for quarterbacks, like, which, like I just, I sort of wonder about that. Like is. Would Ty Simpson, if he had stayed in school have gone through that this year? But he will never know. You know what I mean? Like, I just think those are.

[Todd McShay]

But also, but also the, like the. Where's Ty Simpson going to get the improvement that Cam Ward got from incarnate Word to Washington State to Miami. People forget. People really forget. And it's like this, this amnesia. Kim Ward was like a third to fifth. He was like a fifth coming into his Miami year. Jaden Daniels was a third coming into his, his LA after his first year with, with Kelly at lsu. But Joe Burrow was this first year at lsu. I did a couple of his games. I sat with him, me and Greasy and Levy. He, he Was. He was all right, he was. I, you know, but, but then his last 2019, he was sensational. 2018, 2019. That and team like you now have this luxury of nil money and transfer portals where quarterbacks, there's no excuse not to go back because history tells us. And then you got tie, you know.

[Albert Breer]

And that's, and that's the thing is like, it's just, it's hard to find very many examples of guys with, you know, the volume of starts and there's a zillion reasons why, you know what I mean? Like, I think that there's, it's very real and that like, all right, like now everybody's got tape on you. Everybody's had an off season to study you and what strength and weaknesses are. And now like, you know, whereas you were really good in one area, you know, over the course of your first eight starts, well now like the defense is going to know what they have to take away from you. So now you have to learn how to counterpunch, you know.

[Todd McShay]

And Mendoza's tape was really hard to watch a Cal at times. And I was like, I, I came out and I was like, this guy's got first round potential. Like he really truly, like I love so much about his game, but he ain't ready. Like it is turnover worthy. Play real. If you go and watch the number of mistakes he made and forced now it was with Cal and that supporting cast against superior opponents. But to see what he did from that year, his second year, not full second, it was a full time starter in 2024. He had started games in 2023. So you come back that second year, as you said, and defensive have tape on you. And so you as a quarterback have to rinse, refine, repeat. That's what I talk about all the time. But they as coordinators now have this time, like, okay, these are his tendencies. So now you come back to that third year and it's like, all right, you got to beat on me now as a, now as a 21, 22, 23 year old, I'm going to get a beat on the things that you tried to do to beat me. It becomes this chess match over three years in a perfect world. But that's the NFL, right? And so when you come to the league, you're like, all right, I had my, I had my first year where I was just out balling. Then my second year I took some lumps because they figured out my tendencies and all that stuff. Then my third year, I'm a grown Ass man. I'm smarter than you in your mind. And that's, that's what my tape should be like Mendoza, like Jaden Daniels, like Cam Ward, like. You know what I mean?

[Albert Breer]

Yep.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, we'll just, we'll never know that with tie. And I swear to you, it's why teams are like, I can't invest. I see what he can be. I saw those first nine games. He was better than Mendoza up till November 1st.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah. Now what I've heard he's told teams is that like getting to practice against Nick Saban's defense.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah.

[Albert Breer]

For two years or whatever it was. I think it was two years. Right. That he got to.

[Todd McShay]

It helped him and that's why he was so advanced when he came in as a starter. I get that. But it's not, it's not that. And yeah, he grew up with football in his hand and he was, he was dad's practices and dad's a 20 year coach at UT Martin and head coach, so. But yeah, it's a big gamble. And that's why I don't think unless Arizona tries to get up and make sure they secure them late in the first. I don't foresee, I, I don't foresee a team with an existing pick taking Ty Simpson. And I'm high on. Higher on Ty most. I don't see a team with an existing pick taking tie.

[Albert Breer]

I think the problem with Ty and, and I, I know we've sort of metastasized this into a separate conversation, but like I, I think the Ty Simpson thing to me, and I think that this is. I think you're right, like, and I've heard you say this, so, you know, I, I think you're right in that like what I'm, what I'm getting from teams is like a little bit more like, yes. You see Ty Simpson do more NFL things on tape than you see Fernando Mendoza do on his Indiana tape. The Indiana system was very RPO heavy. And a lot of times because they've got the great receivers between Omar Cooper and Charlie Becker and Elijah Surat. Things are going according to plan. Right. Like you're throwing the number one a lot because things are working out the way they should. Good. Versus like Ty Simpson has to throw more guys open and all that different stuff. I think what people make the mistake of doing sometimes is looking at it and saying, well, this is about like what they've accomplished or how they perform. That's part of it.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah.

[Albert Breer]

But this is more about where they're going. And you Know, I think that that's the thing is, like, when you listen to the comps, like, the comp I like for Mendoza. I don't know where you're at on this, but the comp that I like, Matt Ryan, I like golf, I've heard,

[Todd McShay]

but golf, I'm totally fine with that.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah, Same same sort of thing. Right? And like, you can win with Jared Goff, and there was a lot of, like, upside with Jared Goff when he got to the pros because he had come from one of those offenses that was RPO heavy in college. Right?

[Todd McShay]

Yep.

[Albert Breer]

Versus. Versus. You know what, what Ty Simpson is, which. The. The comp I've heard for him is Brock Purdy. And these are ceilings. Right?

[Todd McShay]

Like, but ceilings.

[Albert Breer]

Yeah, but, but, but I mean, like, some people will look at Brock and say, well, that's it, you know, and do I feel comfortable taking Brock Purdy in the first round?

[Todd McShay]

You as an organization have to hit lightning in a bottle because, because how many, how many times, how many opportunities are there where you get drafted? And Kyle Shanahan is, is your head coach and you're throwing to George Kittle and you're throwing to Kittle and you're throwing Iuk and McCaffrey, Caffrey in your backfield in the offensive.

[Albert Breer]

So Debo at the beginning.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, Debo in the beginning, yes. So, yeah. Yeah, that's. I think, I think we're. I think there's been highs and lows and highs and lows throughout this process with Ty Simpson, but I think the most rational people are kind of meeting where. Where we are right now and then. And that can be a great thing if he finds the right spot.

[Albert Breer]

For sure.

[Todd McShay]

I still believe in him, but I, I don't think a team with, with some of the risks are willing to spend a first round pick on him if they don't have to. This has been fun, man. This has been a lot of fun. I didn't expect to keep you this long. I apologize.

[Albert Breer]

No, this has been great. This is the conversation on the phone. So that's good.

[Todd McShay]

Check that box. But I'm sure we'll be back on the phone in about, I don't know, seven, 10 days and trying to figure this thing all out. I usually give Mensch five stars. He's not here, so. So five stars to you, Bert. We'll. We'll talk to you soon. Absolutely.

[Albert Breer]

Thanks, Todd.

[Todd McShay]

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[Albert Breer]

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[Todd McShay]

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[Albert Breer]

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[Todd McShay]

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[Albert Breer]

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