Mel Kiper Jr. (5:57)

Yeah, let's go.

Todd McShay (5:57)

I don't think any surprise. Tennessee's on the clock. Tennessee's made it perfectly clear you're not allowed to. But. But the league does not allow you to basically announce the pick. Tennessee all but did in the last 48 hours by coming out and saying we're staying at number one and making the pick. We all know it's Cambord. My thought on this, because I feel like we brush it over because there's no suspense to it. We don't talk about it. My thought on this is I'm excited to see what Brian Callahan, the head coach of the Titans, is able to do with Cam Ward. He's got this beautiful piece of clay, if you will. And Cam Ward with the instincts, the poise in the pocket, the arm angles, the ability to throw beautifully on the run. There's just a lot to work with there. And I'm not saying he's Patrick Mahomes. He's not. But I see some of the instincts in the pocket and the waiting to the final second and out, leveraging defenders by allowing them to get real close to him and him knowing what he's going to do before they get there. And that is something you can't teach. And Mahomes had that and still has that. And that's why two, Two players Cam Warden, Patrick Mahomes, who are not great athletes, good athletes, not great athletes, not Lamar Jackson. They're, they're not fast by, you know, they're not Jalen Milroe or Lamar or even Josh Allen speed. But they, they extend and create because of that, those instincts. But Brian Callahan has his. I don't think anyone's really gone through his history enough. Okay. He started out as a grad assistant or not a grad assistant, a offensive assistant, a quality control coach with Peyton Manning in Denver. He's worked with Matthew Stafford as he's elevating up the ranks, worked with Derek Carr. Then he got his big break. Offensive coordinator, Cincinnati Bengals, Joe Burrow brings him to a Super Bowl. Then he gets like every step of the way has been preparing him for this moment. Head coach get to make the choice. Part of the final decision making group pick, hand pick the quarterback we want. And it's Cam Ward. And now he gets to do it on his terms as the head coach of the Tennessee Titans. And, and I, when I see Cam, I see a guy who, in the pocket when he's on time, in rhythm, just like we said about Mahomes, like if you go clip off those certain plays when he's actually in rhythm, timing with the receiver on the routes, making the, the one read ball out, he's a sniper. And I think they saw that over and over again on the clip reel and said we can develop more of this and still have in the back pocket those instincts and ability to extend.

Mel Kiper Jr. (8:35)

I agree with everything you're saying. I agree with the pick. I think it should be the pick. I think it's going to be the pick. It makes sense for the mock draft, all of that, but I am not your yes man and I will never be your yes man.

Todd McShay (8:45)

Okay?

Mel Kiper Jr. (8:45)

So devil's advocate, where would Cam Ward have gone in last year's quarterback class?

Todd McShay (8:50)

I would have and I went back and looked. I. Quite honestly, it's. I'm having the discussion and debating with, with J.J. mcCarthy at four.

Mel Kiper Jr. (9:02)

I think that's right. But let's just say four. Let's say he goes ahead of J.J. mcCarthy. We'll just, we'll just settle it there. We'll say that he goes ahead of JJ McCarthy and you have a unicorn in this year's draft and Travis Hunter who can play two positions, a unique, talented player. Is there an argument to be made that you don't take the quarterback? Even though. Listen, Court, you need a quarterback to win in this league. I get It, I'm saying it's the right pick. I get it all, but Devil's advocate. Yeah, you need, you need a lot if you're Tennessee.

Todd McShay (9:31)

Rich Eisenh had 15 minutes with me the other day to ask me any question I wanted from all the sources I have in the league. All the information, all the analysis, the 15 months of work we've done putting into this draft, and they like, really concentrated last five months. And he spent about five of those 15 minutes doing exactly what you're doing right now.

Mel Kiper Jr. (9:49)

I know and I know.

Todd McShay (9:50)

And I'll give you the abridged version of what I said. We'll get to it. I'll get to Travis Hunter and all the great things that he can offer who's getting them the ball.

Mel Kiper Jr. (9:58)

Right. I, I hear you. I hear you.

Todd McShay (10:00)

All right. And I appreciate and I want.

Mel Kiper Jr. (10:03)

You didn't want to brush it over.

Todd McShay (10:04)

Brush over it.

Mel Kiper Jr. (10:05)

So let's not brush over.

Todd McShay (10:06)

I, I, I, you're not the only person, I guess is the point I'm trying to make that, that is asking that question. It's a fair question. But at the end of the day, you can't win in this league without a quarterback. And this is the best quarterback that this class has to offer. And I think the market when we get to tomorrow night is going to indicate how big of a gap the league, because I want people to remember this. Cleveland has a desperate need for quarterback, a young quarterback to develop to be the future of that franchise. The Giants have a desperate need for that same guy. Yes, they have Russell Wilson, but I'm talking about the future of their quarterback, quarterback spot in their franchise with coaches who are on the hot seat, with general manner, manager and personnel staff on the hot seat. And they're passing on the other guys in this class. So is New Orleans at 9. So there is a big gap. And I think that speaks to this. And the Giants in Cleveland have made significant offers, according to people I've talked to, to move up to get Cam Ward.

Mel Kiper Jr. (11:09)

Right. And just to put a bow on it really quickly, keep in perspective that we say that he would have been fourth in last year's class. Last year's class is historic. Kmwood would be first in a lot of classes. So it's kind of, you know, it's, it's a fun exercise and we do it a lot where we say he would have been fourth last year. There's a lot of years of Cam Ward to be the first quarterback off the board.

Todd McShay (11:28)

Agreed. All right. Cleveland Browns, not a surprise I went with Travis Hunter here, Chuck, and. And you, you're the first person who mentioned this name to me and I actually put it in the mock draft. He's the NFL Shohei Otani. So what? You, you can't pass on him here unless you have a grade on the quarterback. And everyone did their due diligence every. I mean, I told you private planes are crossing in the air last minute trying to like, are we sure, are we sure on top of sure that there's not a quarterback in this class that we want to take it to. And the same thing with the Giants at three.

Mel Kiper Jr. (12:05)

Right.

Todd McShay (12:06)

And the in the Saints at nine and quite frankly even the jets and the raiders and at 7 and 6 respectively, Travis Hunter's the pick. And it's the right pick.

Mel Kiper Jr. (12:17)

Yeah, it's chalk. It's the right pick. I gotta be honest. I think Dan came up with Ohtani, but I ran with it.

Todd McShay (12:21)

Oh, nice job, Dan Comer. Okay.

Mel Kiper Jr. (12:24)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (12:25)

Well, Dan, we give you your due and I'm excited. During our live stream we're gonna have Dan and Tucker, Connor all jumping in. Sure. Someone's gonna have to help carry this thing for five plus hours. There's only so much of my voice and Mention's voice you can hear. You can hear. But we're have a lot of fun tomorrow night. Number three. This was like, I don't think it's a big surprise now, but we've been saying it for over two weeks. This is going to be Abdul Carter and I'm sticking with this here. It's going to be Abdul Carter and I want to get to the Giants later because there's another move in this mock draft that I'm excited to share that I actually feel pretty strongly about. Okay, so we'll get into all the other quarterback centric issues with the Giants. Here's the one thing I want to say with Abdul Carter that's been interesting talking to a lot of people in the league. It's. It's almost like this. He. He is. I've told you from the start, there are two players at the top of this year's draft. They're kind of in their own class. And. And it's Travis Hunter and Abdul Carter. For some teams it's Hunter, other teams it's Carter, but it's those same two names. And then the kind of. The board starts at three. What's interesting is we get closer and you don't know if it's smoke or. But they're like, yeah, maybe, maybe he comes off a Little abrasive. He's got the shoulder, the foot injury, like, so I think because the talent is so great, either we've brushed over it, or there's some people out there trying to get information out. So it's just been interesting to hear in these final, like 7, 10 days, more information coming out about Abdul Carter. But at the end of the day, I haven't talked to a single team. Even the teams that I talked to that are like, yeah, you know, there's a little stuff and not, maybe not as clean and perfect as you'd like, but I haven't talked to a single team that doesn't have him as one of the top two players in this draft. And that's what the Giants are going to do, right? And stick it. Stick at three and take Abdul Carter.

Mel Kiper Jr. (14:22)

Yeah, I mean, chalk, man, this rolling now. I think it's real interesting in the.

Todd McShay (14:28)

Next couple picks and if this is the decision. I may made this point yesterday, and I've actually made it a couple of times. You have someone in the building who's uniquely qualified, and I hold them up in, like, the highest regard. You know, there's Andy Reid, there's, there's, there's Shanahan, there's McVeigh. There's a handful of people, and I, and I include him in that list. Brian Dable. When it comes to who's the quarterback for us. Okay.

Mel Kiper Jr. (14:56)

O'Connell open in there, too?

Todd McShay (14:57)

Yes. I'm glad you mentioned his name. Absolutely. So if, if this plays out this way, then I think the general manager needs to be the one who manages the whole deal. Okay, that's, that's the quarterback. Our guy who we believe in is decided that is going to be, you know, the, the one that we want to go after. We want to target. But it, but Brian, it ain't at three. We got. Abdul's our guy. If it plays out this way. That's a. For all the talk and the dissension in the ranks and the frustration, and I've heard some stories, but at the end of the day, every, every good company has executives that are, you know, at each other, competitive business and, and trust their process, trust their expertise. And it should be day ball's expertise with the quarterback, and it should be Joe Shane's expertise with managing the board and understanding what's best for this organization. So if it plays out this way, tip of, tip of the hat, as men just did for you. Number four, New England Patriots. Here, here's. We had a fascinating conversation yesterday with somebody also Like a business. And I think in our audience, everyone's worked in some company, unless you're, you know, under. Under the age of 18 and maybe you've just, you know, had some side jobs. But anyone who's worked in corporate America or any kind of business, not as important as the talent. The, The. The baseline for hiring is, can he. Can he or she perform this job? Right. But then I think if we're all being honest, so much of it then becomes like, do I want to work with this one? Do I want to work with him or her? Do it? Like, is this someone who's going to understand my language, is going to pick up things quickly? All that stuff. The stories that now are coming out as it's becoming very, very clear that New England's taking Will Campbell, the offensive tackle from lsu, at number four. They are satisfied with. He can do the job at left tackle for them. And they are in love with the individual, with the football intelligence, with the recall. Meetings in Dallas, private meetings. Bring him in, bringing him in the building, even as simple as, like, introducing him to everyone, walking through all these different things and having the recall to go back and tell them exactly what they. What they just dumped on his lap, which is a lot of information on purpose to test him. Aces the test. Mike Vrabel is in love with this young man, according to all reports, and it's not surprising. He needs guys that are going to understand and pick things up quickly. They're going to do things differently in New England. It's not going to be just like Bill Belichick, but there's going to be some elements of. We need to be the smartest guys in the room. We need to change game plans. We need guys that can adjust on the fly, and Will Campbell can do that. And if he. For Patriots fans out there, if Campbell is the pick, I want you to know that it is as much about trusting the human being and his football brain as it is 32 and 5, 8 inches or 33 inch arm length. Pro day. It's. It's about the tape as the foundation, but we trust this guy, and he can help us execute what we're trying to do.

Mel Kiper Jr. (18:13)

Yeah, I mean, they need a left tackle, too, though, and the hope is that he can be a left tackle because, look, it's. They're in a very difficult spot. And we talked about a little bit yesterday with them, you know, losing that, winning that game against the Bills and putting themselves in this position, because that's all good and well, and I. And I like that and I, and I think that's all true. You love to get that kind of a player at 12, 16, 18. He's got to play left tackle if he's a fourth overall pick. And I don't. Listen, I've, I've said several times my piece on Will Campbell and the concerns that I like anyone who, who says his tape is clean. I just, I just disagree. You mean you're, you're more than welcome to your opinion. I just, I just don't see it. I see some issues on tape and I'm. I'm not sure he's a lock to play left tackle in the NFL. And now you're taking a guard at four. But who then? Who? You know, you could say Ashton Jente, and I know a lot of fans in New England would love Ashton Jente, and that's great and all. He's a very talented player. They can't afford the luxury of taking Ash and Jente right now. They need guys up front. They need a left tackle specifically. So you hope he's that guy. I don't hate the pick. I really don't hate the pick. Because he is talented, because he is a great human being, because of all the things that Todd just said. I don't hate it, but I sure don't love it. I'm real concerned about it.

Todd McShay (19:31)

Fair. It's all fair, right? It is. I just, I. Part of our job here is to explain the why, right? Because Gary Horton, who raised us in this business, I talk about him a lot and I will always talk about Gary because he gave us the opportunity to do what we're doing. And, and he worked with Bill Belichick and Nick Saban and he worked with a lot of, you know, in the college level, Frank Kush and Mike White. His big thing to me, he preached to me early on, like, yeah, you can have your opinions and your analysis, but at the end of the day, like, he, he was hard on me about these people did not wake up one morning and decide, how do I go screw this thing up? You know, and it always stuck with me.

Mel Kiper Jr. (20:12)

It's true.

Todd McShay (20:12)

And there's a human element. Mike Vrabel knows ball and like, the people in that building have been around this, like Elliott Wolf's been around literally since he was an infant. And so they didn't wake up the morning that they decided that Will Campbell's going to be the pick and say, let's try to screw this thing up. Yeah, you know, let's see if we.

Mel Kiper Jr. (20:29)

Can mess this up.

Todd McShay (20:30)

So it's our job to explain the why sometimes. Number five.

Mel Kiper Jr. (20:34)

Okay, here we go.

Todd McShay (20:34)

I think the draft starts at 5. Let's just be honest.

Mel Kiper Jr. (20:36)

It does.

Todd McShay (20:37)

I think it's. Chalk is the word we've been using for a while and it kind of is. Cam Warden, number one, Travis Hunter, two to Cleveland. Abdul Carter, three to the Giants. Will Campbell Ford of New England, Jacksonville. Got interesting, didn't it, folks? Like fast. We thought the chalk was. Mason Graham, defensive tackle, Michigan for a long time. Made all the sense in the world. Talked about the short arms. That's his big knock on him. 32 inch arms. Braden Fisk for the Rams, 32 inch arms. Kobe, Kobe Turner, 31 inch arms. James Gladstone, general manager, new GM of the Jacksonville Jaguars, integral part of drafting both of those players with the Rams working under less need. General manager there. And we all thought it was, was going to be Graham. And now all of a sudden, Sunday is the first. I remember we came out just a few days ago on Sunday. Mention I in my hotel room, dogs barking, men just trying to order room service. I had gotten, I had phone calls all weekend, got another call when I landed, and all of a sudden it was like, hey, Liam Cohen, new head coach, kind of put his foot down a little bit and for, you know, right or wrong, he's decided that you brought me in here to fix Trevor Lawrence. Give me, give me the tools in which to do it. And so there's been a lot of Talk about Tet McMillan, wide receiver from Arizona, and Ashton Jinty, running back from Boise State. Here's what I have for you, okay? I am told on pretty reliable sources it will be an offensive skill guy and it will be one of those two players, okay? There's been a lot of noise about teams trying to trade up to go get Ashton Genti. He's the hot name, okay? Chicago is one of those teams at 10. Dallas. Dallas, we've heard a little bit. I don't want to push that too far. I've heard some rumblings about Dallas, Denver. I want to make this perfectly clear. I was close to pulling the trigger on Denver moving up Denver if Genti were to get past this pick. Sean Payton is eagerly trying to move up to go get an Ashton Genti. That's. Those are all the rumblings that I'm getting. Okay. And they're picking at 20. What I'm told is this, if they stay at 5 and don't make a move, it will be Ashton Genti. If a trade offer comes in to move back, they would entertain it. Okay. But they would only do so to move back to a spot where they feel comfortable that they can get Tet McMillan, the 6 foot 4 wide receiver. And we talked to you about Trevor Lawrence, his history. 2018, 2019 at Clemson. Justin Ross, T. Higgins, both six, four receivers, 4,000 receiving yards, 42 touchdowns in those two seasons. That was when he was at his best. They bring in Brian Thomas last year. Things started to work a little bit there, but not enough. Maybe another big body wide receiver, but maybe it's in round two with a Jaden Higgins. Okay. From Iowa State maybe.

Mel Kiper Jr. (23:47)

Love that.

Todd McShay (23:48)

Right?

Mel Kiper Jr. (23:49)

Love that.

Todd McShay (23:49)

But if they stick in picket five, I'm told it's. It's Ashton Genti for the Jacksonville Jaguars. Thoughts?

Mel Kiper Jr. (23:58)

I. I love it. I think both make sense. I mean your, your discussions about what Trevor Lawrence had at Clemson and having those big body receivers and how much Brian Thomas worked out for them last year and adding another guy who's maybe not that level. I don't think he's that level. I don't know how you feel. I don't think you do either.

Todd McShay (24:16)

You're.

Mel Kiper Jr. (24:16)

I mean you have. Ted is your 50th guy. But adding, adding in.

Todd McShay (24:20)

Yeah.

Mel Kiper Jr. (24:20)

I mean, what am I talking about? But adding another big body, talented receiver makes a lot of sense. I love Dej, the Ashen Genti pick. But I'm going to be honest with you right now, I'm having a hard time focusing on this pick because here come the bombs. Here come the, the picks that we, that things have changed, folks. Who we've had going at six, that was going to be Genty for a while. He's not there anymore. And who's going six, I think is the first real big surprise in your last mock. And they're in. Two out of the next three picks are exciting.

Todd McShay (24:51)

All right, so let's go.

Mel Kiper Jr. (24:51)

Yeah, let's get right into it.

Todd McShay (24:53)

Raiders at six. Okay. Raiders at six forever. It was Ashton Jinty. I want to say this too. It's important to note even if Jinty's on the board here, I don't think he's the pick. I think they love him, but I don't think that they. What I've been told from credible reliable sources is they, they, they're like the Patriots. Right. They recognize like Saquon Barkley was, was good for the Giants, awesome for the Eagles.

Mel Kiper Jr. (25:19)

Right.

Todd McShay (25:20)

That's just the nature of the position. It's, it's very much reliant upon the offensive line and the support around them and they're not in a position yet to plug in a running back like Ashton Genti and get the best out of them.

Mel Kiper Jr. (25:32)

Right.

Todd McShay (25:33)

Feels like a luxury pick at this point. And then they're not in the luxury business and they recognize that, which I applaud them for. I want to also give a little background. Armand Membu, offensive tackle from Missouri, Supremely talented. His workout at the combine was outstanding. His tape is beautiful. He's still a little bit raw, still developing right tackle, not left tackle. But his traits are sensational. And he's turning or just turned 21 years old. He's still a pop. A lot of these offensive linemen are pups this year outside of Will Campbell and no in Gray Zable. Okay. A lot of these offensive linemen are pups. So. So with everyone has been saying if it's not Genti, and now we know it's not going to be Genti. Armand Menboo makes sense. And I think you like, I just saw a very credible person out there. I'll just say Peter Schrager. I read his mock draft this morning. Yeah, I mean, way, like, way more. I don't. Very great. He's got great sources tied into this that like, does the information business way more than I do. But we have different, you know. Different. Yes. Um, he's got Memboo there. So, like, I'm not saying I'm definitively right, but I'm saying I'm trusting my sources and my sources are saying and my sources. It lines up with football sensibilities. Tom Brady very much a part of this. Okay. John Spy Tech general manager, very much a high character guy. Okay. Armand Menboo is not a low character guy. I don't want the. This come off the wrong way because it's not what it's about. Brady. Spy Tech believe in like mature football character. Like guys that they. If they're going to use a pick at six and it's not at, you know, not a quarterback, it's got to be a player that they believe is like they're sending a message. This is their first pick together. You got to send a message. Right?

Mel Kiper Jr. (27:37)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (27:38)

That we are going to be a, A, a team that believes in character and football character and, and, and all the things that we want. And Kelvin Banks, offensive tackle from Texas, fits that mold more. And I believe that would be the pick here.

Mel Kiper Jr. (27:54)

God, you know how to build tension and anticipation, man.

Todd McShay (27:57)

I'm like, come on, say it.

Mel Kiper Jr. (27:59)

Yeah, look, I know you're not as high on him as some as Some.

Todd McShay (28:03)

Other people I'm not.

Mel Kiper Jr. (28:04)

I like it. I think it's good. I would take Membu. I would take Membu. I don't think Banks is a bad pick there, though. You know, he'll eventually be a left tackle. He might start a guard. I think he's going to be a good player in the NFL in this draft. You got it. You want an offensive tackle? Get him now. You got to get him now. And if he's your guide, then take Banks.

Todd McShay (28:21)

I think he's. He takes over the starting right tackle job or guard, depending on how things go in camp. And then. And then Colton Miller, the left tackle has been really good entering the final year of his contract next year. So this. This pick represents a. An immediate upgrade along the offensive line, probably right tackle or guard and. And. And some flexibility depending on the contract negotiations, the money, where the team wants to be next year financially with that. But again, yeah. Yeah. With that left tackle position. So we'll see. But that's the first kind of shock, I think.

Mel Kiper Jr. (28:55)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (28:56)

In terms of the. The mock draft.

Mel Kiper Jr. (28:57)

But we're just getting started.

Todd McShay (28:58)

We are Jets. Jets are up. This has been a wild ride, man. Trying to get information. And I think it was at Schefter said that they're moving stealth or they're moving in mystery or moving in silence. They're moving in silence, I think was the quote he had. And I appreciate that. I.

Mel Kiper Jr. (29:17)

That's great. That's a very good sign for an organization.

Todd McShay (29:19)

Yes, exactly. Aaron. Aaron Glenn has a little bit more say in this thing than I think maybe people recognize early on, at least with this pick is from what I'm told. Okay. I do think Tyler Warren. They've done the work on him. I think he's absolutely. I don't want to. Maybe he is in play. Depending on how the board falls. He's an option and he has been like vetted and it's. He's on the very short list for the Jets. The tight end out of Penn State. Okay. A name that Schefter brought up to me and then I read it in his article. Everyone reads Monday morning. All the NFL draft buzz. He kind of empties his notebook. It's an awesome piece. Jade Baron, who I love. And he winds up going too late in my mock draft. So it doesn't reflect that love. But it gets tricky with some of these teams and the team needs. Right. But Jade Baron, that makes sense to me too. So I'm not saying. Honestly, this one was tough for me, but I also.

Mel Kiper Jr. (30:25)

I sound effects.

Todd McShay (30:28)

Sometimes you gotta trust who you know and you gotta block out some of the noise and you gotta go with. I was told watch out for this, so let's take a stab at it. I was told watch out for an edge rusher here.

Mel Kiper Jr. (30:47)

Yep.

Todd McShay (30:47)

And I know they drafted Jermaine Johnson. I know they drafted Will McDonald. I know they're both really good players. But I also know Aaron Glenn believes strongly and you can't have enough pass rushers, and a lot of people in the league do, and I don't blame him. I also know that he was with Detroit and we saw when Aiden Hutchinson went out what, what happened to that defense and obviously a slew of other injuries. I think Jalen Walker here. And again, I've got high confidence on some. This one feels like it's worth the chance. Okay. I recognize it's not Jade Baron who's being reported recently. I recognize that Mason Graham is still on the board. That's like, I'm not ruling that out. This one, they are. They are moving in silence. They're moving in mystery. Okay. So you got to take a stab. But when you have a little bit of information that a lot of other people don't have, lean on it. And Jaylen Walker kind of fits that information I was given. And it also makes sense because it's not like you're bringing in this pure left defensive end who, who can only now it's a three man rotate. He can provide some versatility. And Aaron Glenn's going to want to be flexible and multiple. Okay. So I, I went with Jalen Walker here. Love it.

Mel Kiper Jr. (32:02)

4Th overall player on my board. I'm with Coach Glenn. I am from the same school. You cannot have enough edge rushers. Go get them. I, I love the pick and I love Tyler Warren, too. But this is the tricky thing we're going to get into with some of these players. It's positional value. We've talked about it all year. You know, listen, there's a chance that the jets get Jalen Walker at this point in the draft and Elijah Arroyo in the second round with their 42nd pick.

Todd McShay (32:27)

Yeah.

Mel Kiper Jr. (32:27)

Think about that combination. If I'm a Jets fan, I am through the roof excited.

Todd McShay (32:32)

No question. The eighth pick, Carol. Yeah.

Mel Kiper Jr. (32:35)

I'm taking the eighth pick because this is, this was the one I woke up to this morning.

Todd McShay (32:40)

You.

Mel Kiper Jr. (32:40)

You were up late. I, I got my beauty. I got my beauty sleep in. And I woke up early this morning.

Todd McShay (32:45)

After, After I said, can we take, can we get pizza? Take out Pizza. And he and Marissa are like, like, it's like having two children. They're like, no, we want to go out to eat.

Mel Kiper Jr. (32:54)

It was good. It was delicious.

Todd McShay (32:55)

Two hours?

Mel Kiper Jr. (32:56)

Is that what it's called? It's great.

Todd McShay (32:59)

So Connor and Dan back there, if you're. If you want to be pissed off at somebody, be a little pissed at me for turning this in at midnight last night.

Mel Kiper Jr. (33:05)

I'm not sure Dan has slept yet, but anyways, here we go.

Todd McShay (33:08)

Go.

Mel Kiper Jr. (33:08)

This is the one I woke up on. And I was like, oh, well, Kelvin Banks. We kind of talked about it yesterday.

Todd McShay (33:13)

By the way, Chef David Mbpo, if you're ever in Manhattan Beach, I'm a food junkie. You can see it on my cheeks.

Mel Kiper Jr. (33:19)

It was ridiculous.

Todd McShay (33:22)

Chef David is brilliant. Go ahead.

Mel Kiper Jr. (33:24)

Kelvin banks at 6. We kind of talked about before, you know, I hit the sack. I wake up this morning and the Carolina Panthers are taking a defensive tackle. And that defensive tackle is not. Is not Mason Graham for Michigan. That defensive tackle is Walter Nolan from Ole Miss. And to be clear, that Mason Graham is now getting by eight and he is not the first defensive tackle off the board. I can't wait to hear your explanation.

Todd McShay (33:50)

This is the pick. Hang with me here, Panthers fans. This is the pick I am least confident in, will actually be the pick here. But the information I'm about to give you is. Is the information I'm most confident in. Wrap your head around that for a second. I am told by a credible source and then I vetted it after that with some text messages with people in the league. The Carolina Panthers are the most likely team in the top 10 to move out. I'm actually told that Dan Morgan and the organization would. Would consider a less than market deal. I'm not saying a bad deal, but maybe like something that isn't outrageous. A less than market deal to move back. I'm told if they stick and pick Jalen Walker fits the. The profile of what they're looking for. But I had him going seven to the New York Jets. Okay. I know that Walter Nolan came in for a 30 visit. I know that there's some intrigue with them. I know that they would love to trade back because they feel that they could get a Walter Nolan or, you know, Mason Graham's probably going to go, but a Walter Nolan a little bit later, one of these edge rushers, a little bit later, they. They recognize they're still building. They want additional picks. So if you're a Panthers fan, quite honestly, you're hoping when. When the commissioner Comes up when the Panthers are on the clock that he says there's been a trade with the eighth pick because that's what your organization really wants. That's the best I can give you here. It. I don't feel great about it. I know they like Walter Nolan. I know they vetted him. I know they brought him in for the visitors. I know they've worked him out all of those things. So he is on the short list. So I didn't just, like, throw someone up against the wall to like, get him off the board. I legitimately think he's in play here, but I get a sneak in. I didn't want to make a trade and start messing this, mucking this whole thing up. I made one trade later in a trade, not sure exactly where it's going to be, but a trade that I feel it will indicate something that happens later in the first round. I didn't want to start. I just can't stand reading mock drafts when they have nine trades. It's like, who's picking where, what's going on? And even I'm confused. And I do this for a living, so I didn't want to make that move. But I think this could be indicative of them moving back and maybe getting a Walter Nolan or one of those edge rushers a little bit later in the first.

Mel Kiper Jr. (36:06)

See, like, the player and the team fit. Maybe not that spot, not necessarily that spot, but.

Todd McShay (36:11)

But like, part of our job here is to explain what. What's. Like, what is the. What are the conversations going on in the league? And the conversations are, hey, if we want to trade up there, if Denver, let's say this, here we go. Ashton Ginty doesn't go five for some reason. Okay. And now you've got Chicago at 10, maybe Dallas at 12. Definitely. I want you to hear this. Definitely Sean Payton in Denver at 20 saying, all right, we got to move up the place to go do that. And this, this applies to any other position, too, whether it's a tight end, but Genti is the player that I keep hearing the most, that there's some interest in moving up four and eight is the spot that it could happen.

Mel Kiper Jr. (36:55)

Makes sense.

Todd McShay (36:56)

Okay. 9. This is the one I actually feel great about. Mikel Williams, Edge Rusher, Georgia. They. They've. They've worked them out. They've done the due diligence, 30 visit, private workout. It's simple. They. They recognize Cam Jordan's, I think, entering his 15th year. Okay. Not the product that he has been his entire career. And understandably so but you know what Cam Jordan is? He is a saint at heart. He is a lifelonger. He is. He just loves the organization. He will do team first before me first. And he's back for a 15th year, one year contract. I believe he just signed an extension to come back and I think part of his job while also performing on the field as much as he possibly can is to develop a young guy like a Mikel Williams or a Shamar Stewart. I was told by a reliable source think cut from the same cloth. Think body type. They want a replacement. They love his role, Cam Jordan's role in this defense. So this would be a, a mentorship, if you will, for a year. Both guys are on the field rotating in and out. They've got some other dudes. Chase Young's still there, but this would be past the torch for 2026 to Mikel Williams. And Mikel Williams is a hot name. He could have easily gone eight to Carolina, folks. All right, if you told me that absolutely Carolina staying at pick number eight, I probably would have given him Mikel there and I might have gone Shemar Stewart here. So Mikel is not. I will be shocked if we get to pick 11 and Mikel's still on the board. That's how hot his his name is right now in draft circles.

Mel Kiper Jr. (38:36)

Fit, value, need great pick in a bubble. And you know why? It's a great pick in a bubble. And I know, listen, you're telling your your mocks are what is going to happen. So I'm just, I'm saying this that you were never going to put this player there who's playing quarterback. So I get it, I get it. They. I understand. And by all reports, the Saints are not taking a quarterback. It's too early. You know, I have Jackson Dart way down my board. I think he's 34th player in in this draft. But and I love again, value, fit, need home runs all across the board for Mikel Williams. But if I'm a Saints fan and I've heard about how great Jackson Dart is or I've watched some tape and I think Jackson Dart or I think Shador Sanders is great or I think Tyler Shuck is great, I'm saying yeah, great pick, he's going to be a great player for us for 12 years. He could be the next Cam Jordan. That's awesome. Who's throwing the ball?

Todd McShay (39:37)

We'll have to get to that later.

Mel Kiper Jr. (39:38)

Yeah, I guess. I hope you like you play with fire when you wait for your quarterback. That's it's going to be a very interesting draft and how quarterbacks are attacked and that and where they're taken.

Todd McShay (39:48)

It ain't Shador Sanders.

Mel Kiper Jr. (39:50)

Right? I agree with you, but whoever. As a fan, whoever you want, you're sitting at home and saying, yeah, Mikel Williams is great, and I love Mikel Williams, but you're thinking to yourself, man, we need a quarterback.

Todd McShay (40:01)

We'll get to the quarterbacks in a little bit. But. But it's not Shador Sanders in New Orleans, and it's not Shador Sanders or the New York Giants. I'll just. I'll give you that nugget right now. All right, let's start ripping through these because we got a bunch of.

Mel Kiper Jr. (40:12)

This is a big one. Rip through this one.

Todd McShay (40:16)

Bears fans, Bears fans, Remember I was yelling at you Sunday night. Bears fans.

Mel Kiper Jr. (40:23)

It's.

Todd McShay (40:24)

It's still a great pick, but it's not what I thought it was going to be, and I'm not certain that this will actually be the case. Mason Graham could go seven to the. To the New York Jets. Okay. Mason Graham could go eight to the Carolina Panthers. I went with Mason Graham to the Chicago Bears here, and I do know that there is a lot of love for Mason Graham in the building. I do know these things. I know that they are making calls, and there are conversations being had about the potential to move up. How could we go get Ashton Jinty? That's number one. I need everyone to know that. Number two is they love Mason Graham and it fits what they're trying to do. And they. And you got Dennis Allen coming in as defensive coordinator, more aggressive, active, like, you know, man to man. And I think Mason Graham fits that. And I think. I think Dennis Allen's in love with this guy. So that's why I went with the pick. But I also. I find it fascinating. Had you told. You told me. Or Bears fans, like, if Tyler Warren and Colston Loveland are still on the board at 10 and it's a hard pass. I. I guess it's me. Sorry. Bears fans, like, I don't. All along, I've just loved the concept of Warren or Loveland and the 12 personnel with your quarterback, Caleb Williams and Cole Comet, and I just. I would love to see Ben Johnson have the opportunity to kind of cook things up in the lab. Right. But I think you have to do what's right for the organization. I think Ryan Poles, if he recognizes a player that's on most people's boards, like top five, top six, not all. There are some teams that are not as hot on Mason Graham as others. But there's a handful of teams, more than a quarter of the league that view him as one of the five, six, seven best players in this draft. And then he's sitting there at 10 and you're trying to build through the trenches. Still, Graham makes a lot of sense.

Mel Kiper Jr. (42:18)

I forgot that Dennis Allen was the big, big hire in the off season for, for the NFL. I forgot that it was Dennis Allen and that we need to get Dennis Allen players. We talk about, oh, you know, Cohen in Jacksonville, we're going to get him a playmaker because he's an offensive coach. And Aaron Glenn, he's a defensive coach. So we're going to have a defensive player. And then Ben Johnson, who has been. Been the, the up and coming head coach. I don't like seven years.

Todd McShay (42:42)

I feel like I don't like his.

Mel Kiper Jr. (42:43)

Tone for seven years. And let's go get. And I listen, I love Mason Graham, but let's go get him a defensive tackle. The logic all of a sudden flips at 10 when you have. And listen, Bears fans, I get it. You don't. Maybe you don't need a. You don't need a tight end as you maybe need other positions and maybe you wish you were getting Astro Gente. And maybe they make a move for him and I get all of those things. But guess what? Your GM was so goddamn good in free agency that maybe you can go out and get. You, you can go out and get one of these great tight ends who are 6 and 7 on my board, a 10. But no, let's not. No Ben Johnson. No, no, let's get him a defensive tackle. You're right.

Todd McShay (43:22)

The hell got into him?

Mel Kiper Jr. (43:23)

I mean, the logic is, is good for these other teams, but not for them.

Todd McShay (43:27)

You've been the Mason Graham guy.

Mel Kiper Jr. (43:28)

Graham should go earlier than this. I'm not saying that. I think if Carolina has Mason Graham on the board, there's. They should take him. I think Jacksonville should still consider it. I understand that's not happening, but it's not about where I value Mason Graham. It's about the identity of your organization and why you hired a guy.

Todd McShay (43:44)

Did you forget, did you block out the part where I said they're. They're making phone calls to try to trade up for Ashton?

Mel Kiper Jr. (43:51)

I did not. I just, I'm locked in on Mason Graham, the defensive tackle, going to Chicago.

Todd McShay (43:55)

All right. I think most people in Chicago would be thrilled, including.

Mel Kiper Jr. (43:58)

They're getting a damn good player.

Todd McShay (43:59)

Dennis Allen.

Mel Kiper Jr. (44:00)

Yeah, Dennis Allen, but. Right. The big hire of the Offseason. Dennis Allen.

Todd McShay (44:03)

All right. Shamar Stewart, San Francisco pick 11. Shemar is an interesting name in the league right now, man. And it's been like this for a long time. Picked up, picked an agent who has not. Not been the most pleasing during the process to Jim Nagy. Senior bowl teams trying to private workouts. I did. An assistant GM called me recently. Like, do you. Can we ask around? Like, he refused to do a. I don't want to say refuse. He's not available for a private workout. I don't know. What is he hiding? He's a freak. Phenomenally. He's a phenomenal, like, physically gifted athlete. And so that's rubbed some teams the wrong way. Okay. Then there's the production element of it. Okay. But then there's the tools element of it and the explosiveness and the Rashawn Gary's of the world and the Danielle Hunters of the world and the Trayvon Walker, who, by the way, what was like three, five sacks his rookie year and 20 and a half sacks the last two years. And everyone's like. And listen, Hutchinson absolutely should have been the first overall pick, but Trayvon's been a pretty damn good player. Traits, man. Traits in the trenches in the NFL is no joke. So Shemar's got a lot of love in some places, and he's not very loved in a lot of other places. I'd say more. So, like, there's. There's more teams that kind of questions. Then there are teams who are like, this is our guy. But there are teams who are like, this is our guy. I think San Francisco, this fits. I want to also tell you 49ers fans, I think Mikel Williams. Absolutely. In play. I want to tell you that. That they've done a lot of work on Walter Nolan. That's another name to keep in mind here. I do not believe, based on the sources and the information I've had and made a lot of calls on dating back to Friday about all these organizations and, like, what's on the short list? What's. And I do not believe it's going to be offensive tackle here. Okay, well, who would you go with?

Mel Kiper Jr. (46:07)

I mean, Simmons would be the best player on my board at that point, and he's at 20, 24. I mean, the value.

Todd McShay (46:12)

Armand memboo.

Mel Kiper Jr. (46:13)

Oh, memu's not off the board in this.

Todd McShay (46:14)

Correct. That's why I wanted to mention, because if you're a 49ers fan, you're like, wait, Armanu. I thought he was up there with Campbell and It's like. So I wanted to mention. I don't think it's. That's why I didn't go offensive tackle here with Membu, and I went with an fault. Yep. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. Yep. So that. That's the deal with San Francisco. I've heard they've been making some phone calls to. Just throwing that out there. I don't know who for what they're trying to move up for, but I've heard they've made some phone calls. And San Francisco has 11 picks, four in the top 100. So arming you with information as we get closer to the draft. Dallas at 12. My guy, Ted McMillan, wide receiver. What a reach. There's been a lot of conversation about Dallas, and I feel like this happens every year, and there's a lot of conversation about Dallas. Jerry's on the phone and trying to move up, and then, like, it just fizzles.

Mel Kiper Jr. (47:14)

Right.

Todd McShay (47:14)

I think Dallas is going to stick and pick. I want to say this. I get this sense. Ted has been. I do know in the building Tet is very high on their board. I do also think if Tet were to go five or Jacksonville moves back a couple spots and takes Tet there, that Matthew golden is also in consideration here. I. Cowboys fans don't rule out. And I appreciate this about them. They stick with, like, the trenches. They're trying to build from the core, you know, inside out. And. And they do a good job with that. It's typically offensive lineman, defensive lineman, premier positions with these picks when they're in the first half of the first round. So this would be a little bit of a departure. And I'm sure someone's out there. Like, we'll remember Dallas did this a couple. But I'm saying, if you look at the history, it's typically been the big guys or premium positions. Okay. But Tet fits what they want to do. We've heard that name rumored to them. But more importantly, I have confirmation that people that matter in the building are tech guys. And. And I think the range for him, like I said, is it's not necessarily five, but it's Jacksonville. If they move back a little bit, wherever that would be 2 and 12. Okay. Big X wide receiver opposite CD Lamb. It actually makes sense. Okay. 13.

Mel Kiper Jr. (48:42)

I love. By the way, I love the idea of somehow Dallas pulling off a trade to get up to two to get Travis Hunter. I know it won't happen, but I love that idea.

Todd McShay (48:49)

I think, what would it take? We came in here, started Yesterday with there are calls being made for those picks and I stand. I stand on that.

Mel Kiper Jr. (48:57)

It'd be.

Todd McShay (48:58)

But. And I'm not certain Dallas was one of those teams calling, but I got a hunch they were.

Mel Kiper Jr. (49:05)

You know that Jerry loves that player. Of course, everyone does. But you know that Jerry would love to have that player. Go ahead.

Todd McShay (49:11)

He needs stars. Playing on the star.

Mel Kiper Jr. (49:14)

There's going to be a super underrated pick that I love.

Todd McShay (49:17)

I know I actually was. I was googling last night to see like the private workouts, like what. What the connection was with Miami because I know that they love Kelvin Banks. Let me start with this, Dolphins fans. If Kelvin Banks somehow, and I do not think he will, but if he somehow gets to 13, Kelvin Banks is the pick. Okay, so that's the jumping off point. He's not there. They could go in a bunch of different directions. I've heard these are two names and I think it's. If they trade back, they brought both these guys into the building. There's two names that I think are on the radar are Nick Eman, Worry, safety, Tyler Booker, guard. That signals to me that they're. They're. Chris Greer, the general manager is. Is entertaining moving back and quite honestly, he should. They've got bigger needs than they thought. Toronto Armstead gone. Jalen Ramsey heading out. This roster is kind of like. I look up at him like, shoot. Like my. My needs listed with my needs list. It's like some teams, it's like the first one is like they need a starter here. Like they're void of. And then there's a bunch of like depth guys and backups and building for the future. Contracts are up next year. Miami, it's like offensive tackle. And it's not just a left tackle because if Patrick Paul, right, Paul, the offensive tackle for Miami, he was a second round pick. They were going to hopefully plug him in and play left tackle, but it's. It's right tackle potentially. Yeah, it's guard. So that's the offensive offensive line across the board. They're looking for upgrades. Cornerback with Ramsey, safety. Yeah. Javon Holland, left edge, interior, defensive like Clay is. Campbell like they've got a lot this. This roster changed fast. Okay, but Membu makes sense because of. He's a right tackle. Kick inside the guard, develop him, maybe kick him back out to tackle. However that works. If they stick and pick at 13, it makes a lot more sense to me to draft a member than it does who has tackle potential. I think he's going to be a really Good right tackle at some point in his career and maybe it's as a rookie, but then to bring in Tyler Book Booker, who's going to be a good guard, but I don't think as good as Membu and he's just a guard. So those are some names to, to keep in mind with.

Mel Kiper Jr. (51:41)

Good luck defending that outside zone scheme with those backs and that dude blocking.

Todd McShay (51:46)

That's what I'm saying.

Mel Kiper Jr. (51:47)

Good. This is why I love the pick. I think, you know, it's a great value there. It is a great fit and I don't think they've really been able to maximize those backs and, and yes, they've been productive. But when you get that speed with the kind of guy that can move like that and seal the edge for you, watch out. I, I think it's a great pick.

Todd McShay (52:07)

Next up, Indianapolis Colts. They're thrilled this is best case scenario. I've, I've actually heard the Colts have made and I believe it. The Colts have made calls to potentially try to move up to make sure that they get Warren or Loveland. I actually, here's the deal. I've actually heard more about their love and interest in Colston Loveland than I have Tyler Warren. I had to go off the assumption that it's just because no one assumed that Warren would be in this vicinity. We were talking about him at 7. Most teams have him in their top 7 to 9 players in this draft. Okay. Not a contingent of teams. But as we've gotten closer to the draft, I do find it interesting that some teams are now kind of. The information coming out is that like. Yeah, I don't know that he's going to be special. Special.

Mel Kiper Jr. (52:53)

Right.

Todd McShay (52:54)

And Loveland's got a chance to be a special receiving. He's never going to be a good blocker, great blocker, but he's got a chance to be a special receiver. So that's something to monitor as we get closer. I guess my point is it won't be mind blowing to people in the league if Loveland actually comes off the board before Warren. But then I started thinking like I always, always try to go back to the football sensibilities. Shane Steichen, offensive coordinator in Philadelphia for two years. During those two years, right. Goddard had an unbelievable run the the one year, 2022 when he was with them. 55 catches, 702 yards. Okay. Last year the Colts tight ends were Kylan Granson, Mo Ali Cox, Drew Ogletree and Will Mallory. They combined for 39 catches. Okay. Four of them. So and here the more important part is because it could be Loveland. Right. Doesn't Dallas Goddard like. It's the. They have the same kind of build, can play. Why involved in the blocking aspect of the run blocking game. So I don't know. For Steichen, I just. This. This felt like the right spot.

Mel Kiper Jr. (54:07)

Great value, great fit. Run it in.

Todd McShay (54:09)

All right. Why don't we throw up the rest of the top 17 here, Tucker. Okay, we got to start ripping through these. I want to get to the quarterbacks at the end 15. I went with James Pierce. We've been told, and I believe by. By credible sources. I mean, I know they're credible sources, but there's a strong sense that Atlanta's need for a defensive lineman is so great that maybe we're willing to work with and channel the. Some of the red flags. The character red flags. James Pierce. It's not a bad guy, not horrible things, just football character is not up to par of like what you. What you would love. And that's why, you know, there was some talk about him really falling. He's too damn talented, man.

Mel Kiper Jr. (54:54)

It's true.

Todd McShay (54:55)

I just like.

Mel Kiper Jr. (54:56)

It's true.

Todd McShay (54:56)

Here's the difference for me. I think you'll notice this about me, the guys who, when you talk about, quote, unquote, football character, red flags, right? If I see it on Saturdays, I'm more likely to bump you down than if I don't see it on Saturday. So when we talk about a Walter Nolan, who there are. There's not awesome stuff. Practice habits, you know, reliability, all these things. Motivations, same with James Pierce. But I can't find a clip where these dudes aren't playing their asses off between the lines on game day. So I think there's a little bit more flexibility with that stuff with these players. James. James Pierce. If it's. If it's not Pierce, I think it's Mike Green. It's going to be an edge. But I want to remind Falcons fans, just five picks in this entire draft, if there's an opportunity to move back, I think they might take it. But the needed edge is so great that that could be the spot. Here's Arizona at 16. I went with Jihad Campbell, linebacker from Alabama. I want to make it perfectly clear and that makes sense. It makes sense for the defensive scheme and what they want to do. And I think it will be the pick if he's cleared medically, like, I'm going to be very careful. Jihad is a. As a warrior, he's a grinder. He's had. He's been, you know, he's. He's been through some wars. So there's some. There's some attrition. Is that right?

Mel Kiper Jr. (56:27)

Yeah, no, that's right.

Todd McShay (56:30)

The medical is a little. A little more concerning than. Than I. Maybe I thought. But with a clean bill of health, this, this would be the pick. I also think at Arizona.

Mel Kiper Jr. (56:41)

Did you consider corner?

Todd McShay (56:42)

I was just.

Mel Kiper Jr. (56:43)

Pretty good corners on the board, man, there are.

Todd McShay (56:44)

But Arizona got their, their nickel corner, and so I didn't know about that. And Will Johnson, the cornerback from Michigan, as we get closer. Foot injury. Long term, there's legit concern. Didn't run the 40. He's. He's projected 458-46-in his. In his workouts leading up to Will Johnson, the cornerback from Michigan could fall. I don't have him falling a lot here, but that was kind of reflective as well. Okay, 17. We just had on the board Mike Green. I think that's the range 15 and 17 feel like James Pierce, Mike Green in whichever order. You know, FBS leader in sacks, burst and power, off the edge. Awesome at the Senior Bowl. He makes a lot of sense for Cincinnati with or without Trey Hendrickson. Okay. Okay. Right with him. Awesome without. It's a much greater need. All right, flip the page. Seattle 18. I went. I just went with the guy that I think John Schneider is going to fall in love with. Gray's able offensive guard. Projection center. Projection left tackle at North Dakota State. Came to the Senior bowl like, like Minors and Armstead and Mock and the rest of those guys before small school offensive linemen. Tell me I can't. Tell me I can't line up against Alabama and Georgia and Tennessee and. And Michigan and Notre Dame and can't kick their ass.

Mel Kiper Jr. (58:12)

And that group again, that group at this year's senior was specifically. I mean, the Nolans of the world were down there. I mean, it's. Yeah.

Todd McShay (58:20)

And that's what he did. He kicked everyone's ass that week. Voted by scouts as the practice player of the week at all positions. Okay. I just think Seattle with the needs, the multiple needs along the offensive line, the fact that he could be a center, could be a guard, can give you some position flex if you need it, at left tackle. But he's not going to be a left tackle or right tackle. I don't believe in the NFL, but this guy moves differently. I love that pick to Seattle, Tampa Bay. I went with Will Johnson here. Told you about the foot injury. If he starts to fall, remember I said it's because of the injuries. I don't think it's because The Ford, the no. 40 time in the speed his game is this. Eyes forward, play in front, absolute sniper closes ball skills big time playmaker, back turned shadowing, recovery speed required. Gets in trouble, ball in the air, gets lost. Pass interferences we saw. So in the right scheme. Tampa Bays 26 in interceptions last year. This guy's a ball hawk. I just told you. Makes a lot of sense. But I want to mention this to you Bucks fans. Sneaky player that keeps the name keeps popping up. They had him in for a 30 visit. You look at the the age at wide receiver, you got to keep things rolling with Baker. Matthew golden and his 429 speed breakout year. Yes. So Matthew Golden's a name to keep in mind there, Denver. This one was tough, man. Ah, was it? If the board lays out this way, it's not that tough. They brought in Evan Ingram, right? But he's 30 years old. He only played nine games last year. How much can we rely on him? They're looking for that joker that Sean Payton always talks about. And everyone's like, well, they got Angram. They got their joker. Like, yeah, if he's healthy at 30 years old coming off an injury, so like, why not 12 personnel for Sean Colston, Loveland.

Mel Kiper Jr. (60:22)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (60:23)

And Ingram. Because here's the news I want to break to you. I love Omarion Hampton and I love Travion Henderson. Two things I'll tell you right now to look for, to look for in round one, the running back. Really the entire draft. I talked to you about 2017, only 5 of those running backs in that awesome class that had 30 drafted, starting with Leonard Fournette and Christian McCaffrey, only five of them went in the top 85 picks. Two more went in the next four or five picks. And then from 105 to the end of the draft, pick like 252, there was like a record setting number of running backs because there were so many of them that year that 23 of them went from, from the pick 105, which is in the fourth round to the end of the seventh round. And I think this year could be kind of the same. We can get our guy on, we can pick our flavor on Saturday. Okay. And I think the same will be true. Even in the first round, you kind of get bumped back a little bit because there's so much talent at running back. So when people look at this and they're like, well, why not Omari and Hampton, why not Trayvon Henderson. I did think about Trayvon Henderson. I think he is, I don't know. It's split. I've heard both things with Denver and clearly they want a running back because they're, they're, they're making a lot of calls, according to people I'm talking to about moving up. So keep an eye on Sean. I think he's, I think he knows he's got his guy at quarterback. I mean, I don't think that I know he knows he's got his guy at quarterback. And typically the Saints, they did not spend high pick like the first and even a lot of second rounders outside of Michael Thomas on, on offensive skill guys because he could kind of create his own jokers from 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th round picks and he did. But I think he's kind of in this emergency mode. Like we got our guy.

Mel Kiper Jr. (62:08)

Let's.

Todd McShay (62:09)

We need another joker or two.

Mel Kiper Jr. (62:11)

Yeah, you're getting a top 10 pick at 20.

Todd McShay (62:13)

I don't disagree.

Mel Kiper Jr. (62:14)

And he.

Todd McShay (62:15)

Listen, what I'm more worried about is the board doesn't fall this way. I don't see Loveland being there at 20.

Mel Kiper Jr. (62:19)

Right.

Todd McShay (62:19)

That, that's the frustration here. But I think again, just like with Carolina giving him a player that I'm not certain they're going to take, I, I wanted to get Loveland off the board. I think if he were there, they would jump at the opportunity. But I also think Denver is trying to be aggressive. I don't. It won't surprise me a little bit. In fact, I'd say it's more probable than not that they're not picking at 20 that they're picking earlier. Okay. Right.

Mel Kiper Jr. (62:44)

That player and that that team might not be at that pick.

Todd McShay (62:47)

Pittsburgh Steelers 21. Here we go. Let me take a, take a sip of my lemon. Perfect. By the way, there are developments with lemon. Perfect.

Mel Kiper Jr. (62:56)

What do you got? I got watermelon pretty good.

Todd McShay (62:58)

I mean, I'm a lemon guy to start, but I'll drink all of them. Any and all Pittsburgh. This one's tough. I did not go with Shador Sanders here. I've said for five days now. I think the, the floor, that hard floor, that cement floor that we thought 21 for Shador Sanders was there, I think it's a lot softer. I. Here's what I do know. Shador Sanders is in play. Mike Tomlin did have a good meeting with him. Don't leave. Don't believe the other reports. Mike Tomlin does like him a lot. Mike Tomlin has more power now. Not that he didn't have power. It's hard to phrase this properly. Kevin Colbert, the former gm, and Mike Tomlin were, were step in step. But there was a trust that Kevin would make the picks Omar Khan makes. I'm not saying he doesn't make the picks. I'm saying Mike Tomlin is more involved and can step in. And there's a little bit more like, okay, no, we need this guy. And there's like that understanding. Okay, great relationships, everyone. Omar Khan's like, wonderful, does a phenomenal job. We have very good friends that work in and around the organization. All like, there's no dissension, there's no issues. I'm just saying Tomlin's got a little bit more push in this regime. Okay. And so if that's the pick, it will be Tomlin stepping in and saying, we gotta have this guy. And Omar being like, you sure? And he'll be like, we gotta have this guy. And then they'll, they'll probably do that, but I don't. While I know Tomlin really like Shador and would like to work with him and values that relationship and really enjoyed his time with him in Pittsburgh recently, I don't know, and I repeat, I don't know for certain that it's enough to go against what the organization is saying. And the organization is saying this. We're going to get a quarterback to plug in. If it's not Aaron Rodgers, maybe it's, maybe it's Kirk Cousins, maybe it's Sam Howell. There's, there's options there. We're great on defense. Let's continue to build through the trenches and do what we do here in Pittsburgh. Let's get a dynamic weapon at running back. I think Pittsburgh would like to trade back from this pick. They don't have the second round pick because of DK Metcalf. I think they'd like to trade back. If you go and look at their 30 visits and they're one of the teams, like, if they don't get their hands on you during these private workouts and the private, you know, the visits to the 30 visits, typically they don't draft you. And if you look at their visits, a lot of them are guys that are in the, like late first throughout the second round range, they don't have a second round pick. So I believe strongly that Pittsburgh could move out of this pick at 21. I put Derek Harmon there because I think Pittsburgh could wind up trading back. There's some, like, nicks and bruises with Derek Harmon that I wasn't certain of. I'm not saying he's falling. I don't want any agents calling me. I'm just saying if he doesn't go as high as we originally thought, maybe it's like later in the 20s somewhere in that range. That would be the reason why. Okay. I do think they have an infatuation with Travion Henderson. So keep an eye out on that. I'm not saying at 21. I'm saying moving back a little bit.

Mel Kiper Jr. (66:10)

Fit, value, need. Let's go.

Todd McShay (66:11)

Let's roll. Chargers. Fit, value, need. Kenneth Grant. I've. I've said this for a little while. I, I think a Michigan man. A Michigan man. And it won't be because of that. I think Jim, it's cool. I think Jim yeah. Likes it, but he ain't going to make it decision off of it. Jim's gonna like the 331 pound behemoth plugging in that, that interior Puna Ford gone. Unique mobility for his size. There's a lot more in the tank there. I think developmentally moving forward. There were other names though I wanted to share. Running back. Don't be shocked here.

Mel Kiper Jr. (66:44)

You can't help yourself but share everything.

Todd McShay (66:45)

I know. All right. Green Bay 23. We heard a little bit of Eamon Worry with them. We heard a little bit of Will Johnson with them. But the name that I keep hearing with Green Bay is a player I absolutely adore. Mad Max Maxwell Hairston, Cornerback, Kentucky. Fastest man at the, at the combine this year, four to eight. I think he's just as quick as he is fast. I've said it before. If you're talking about just pound for pound explosive athletes in this draft, I might put Hairston right behind Travis Hunter. Six interceptions, was it Three pick sixes tied the school record. He's just, he's a dude, man. He can play, man. He can play Zone Jair Alexander, that whole situation. I just like this pick.

Mel Kiper Jr. (67:30)

Yeah, it's good pick.

Todd McShay (67:33)

You're being quiet on purpose. I like it. Minnesota Vikings. Jade Baron. I don't like jade falling here. I said it before. He could go as high as 7. There's some love in San Francisco. I don't think I mentioned that. There are some spots for him.

Mel Kiper Jr. (67:47)

Steal in capital letters and I agree.

Todd McShay (67:49)

Baron is a steal. Right. So if, if, if they get an opportunity to draft Baron, even though they only have four picks, the fewest amount of picks of any teams team in the, in the National Football League this year, I think they would stick and pick Houston. You're probably not going to like this one. They brought him in for a 30 visit though, and Tank Dell's injury and I know they brought in Christian Kirk, but it's a slot and the offensive tackles have come off the board and I think it's too high for Tyler Booker, but he is in play, absolutely in play here. Okay, Josh Simmons is the most talented offensive tackle in this class, but we just literally like brought a moving truck into our offensive line room, packed up everything and everyone that was involved with that offensive line and shipped it out of town. I'm obviously, you know, exaggerated a little bit. Not that much. And it's because of culture and character and he didn't d'ameco Ryan's is so huge on that. Anyone who knows him and it's working. So why is he going to let his offensive line not fall in line with that? So I went with Matthew golden here at wide receiver because I don't know that you want to take Tyler Booker here over a Matthew golden who could be an explosive weapon for your young quarterback. But I recognize, hey, Houston fans, they're one of the Denver, Dallas, Chicago and Houston are the four teams I'm hearing the most and even the Colts a little bit, but I would put them in the top three. Four teams I'm hearing most trying to move up. I got to assume that's for an offensive tackle. I got to assume it's for the guy that Tom Brady and John Spytak, part owner and general manager respectively of the Las Vegas Raiders is. They're so high on his football character and who he is and what he believes in and how he works in. In banks. Kelvin Banks Jr. But I don't know. They can get up to five or four or five. And is it worth moving like what you have to give up if you're Houston to go all the way up there? Houston's got four picks in the top 89. We'll see 26 Rams. Of course you did a Mecca Buca.

Mel Kiper Jr. (70:12)

Of course you did.

Todd McShay (70:13)

I have kept a Mecca Buka out of every mock draft, every exercise.

Mel Kiper Jr. (70:17)

It's so true.

Todd McShay (70:18)

Everything you want to hear me because. And we're going to. Hey, Tucker. Eduardo. Let's make sure we get that clip.

Mel Kiper Jr. (70:27)

Oh, here we go.

Todd McShay (70:28)

When we fought about Mecca Book in the first round, I waited for the final mock draft to put him where he rightfully deserves to be in the first round. Just think about it. Mecca smart, strong, savvy, run after catch team. First block for you. Great in the building.

Mel Kiper Jr. (70:47)

We got one Ultra.

Todd McShay (70:48)

We got one in the fifth round. Where'd they get Cooper Cup? Third.

Mel Kiper Jr. (70:52)

Yeah, I think it was third or fourth, right? Third.

Todd McShay (70:55)

So unfortunately we might have to spend a first this time around. But my goodness, would it be nice to get Matthew Stafford at his point in his career, a rookie that he could trust? That's hard to find.

Mel Kiper Jr. (71:05)

I hate you right now.

Todd McShay (71:07)

Okay.

Mel Kiper Jr. (71:07)

Because it's such a.

Todd McShay (71:08)

Hold on.

Mel Kiper Jr. (71:08)

It's. I have, I've argued against it all year long, but it is, it is such a perfect fit. And he's not a bad player, he's a good player. I just think he's more of a day two player. But it's such a perfect fit that it's like, okay, I get it. I don't love it, but I get it.

Todd McShay (71:26)

Malachi Starks Safety, Baltimore Ravens 27 he's just a Raven, right? Yeah. Smart team. First born to be a Raven tough guy. Yeah, they gave up 58 plays of 20 plus yards last year. They need a guy back there to defend that wall and I think Starks would be the perfect fit.

Mel Kiper Jr. (71:41)

Great Raven trade.

Todd McShay (71:45)

Trade. Starting to worry about my blood pressure on a screen like that. This is around the range. I don't have any information that they're calling to make this deal or that talks have had. Have been going on. The New York Giants are linked heavily to Jackson Dart, as are the New Orleans Saints. The Saints Pick it 40 in the second round. The Giants pick at 34 in the second round. I don't get the sense talking to people in the league. Cleveland it does. Cleveland might just stick and pick at 33 and if the guy falls in their lap, maybe they do. But I think it would be, it would be to get up ahead of this could be New Orleans, it could be the Giants. When we get to the final, I think it starts at Minnesota. I mentioned Minnesota has the fewest number of picks. It starts at Minnesota at pick 24. That's when this, the spidey senses are going to go off. That's what I'm going to be checking my phone. Not to tip picks. We're not doing it here. During our live stream Thursday night, entire draft start with us at 7pm we'll get you everything going on YouTube, Spotify, we're going to do re rack it on Friday night and then Marcelo's house invasion on Saturday 3 to 5 Eastern Time. That's a fact. I'm looking for an app to try to figure out how to measure without having to go buy one of those things at 40 yards. To walk it off on the street. So, so keep that in mind. But. But I do have my stopwatch right there in my backpack. Get him to run the 40. Giants at 28. They trade up. Here's the deal. They have a pick at 99. They used to not be able to trade compensatory picks. Now you can. They have the two picks in the third round. That 99 pick on the trade value chart lines up perfectly with the value to move up from 34 to 28. Okay. Detroit is sitting there. There's not an edge that you necessarily love. There's, you know, the couple positions that they've been, they've been looking at. I just, I could see them wanting to move back, pick up an additional pick, get a little bit more. More draft ammunition in the first, the first two days of the draft and Giants move into the spot and take. Take Jackson dart. Shador Sanders is not going to be a New York Giant. Shador Sanders is not going to be a New Orleans Saint. Okay, so let's just address that now. We said to you the week after the combine that I was surprised that other networks weren't reporting what was what, what the information that came to me so easily. Shador Sanders is a, is a good young man. Shador Sanders has always been respectful and everything else. Some interviews didn't go well, including with the New York Giants, I'm told now. And I think what happened early in the process, there was a feeling that they could hand pick. I don't think Coach prime came out and said to himself, I'm going to, I'm going to hand pick, you know, the places that my son can go play for. Well, what happens when you got a small, it's not a small pool, but it's not as big as 32 teams. And only so many teams need quarterbacks. And it just so happened that a bunch did in that top 10, six. But after the, you know, throughout the process, after the combine, some of the meetings didn't go well. I told you, I talked to two executives. Didn't go well. So now the pool shrinks. And now I'm here to tell you that it didn't go well with, with Brian Dabel and it didn't go well with the Giants organization. So the pool shrinking and now he does. He's not a perfect fit in some places. Right. New Orleans. I've talked about, talked ad nauseam about, about Kellen Moore in the last three offensive coordinator jobs and the fact that, the fact that he's worked with guys who are more of the mold of Jackson Dart with a, you know, sturdier build. Mobility a little bit more arm. So now. Now it shrinks a little bit more. Okay. The pool for Shador Sanders has just gotten really small. And I'm not here to, like, cut it anyone. And I think Shador is going to be really good if he lands in the right spot. I really do. I've said from the beginning I think he's the fastest processor, and I think he's the best pure passer in this class. If it's not Pittsburgh, I don't see a spot for him in round one. I think it's much more likely that Shador Sanders is on the board when we kick things off when Cleveland's on the clock, assuming the trade hasn't been made for that pick on night two, than it is that. That Shador goes in night one. And the only team I can find right now that I feel comfortable saying, yeah, that would make sense, is Pittsburgh at 21. And even the people who are saying that are kind of in line with what I'm saying, that there's not certainty. So that aside. And later in this mock. I gave. I gave Shador to Cleveland, and I can talk about that briefly when we get there. But I think the player that could be traded up for in the first round at the quarterback position is Jackson Dart. And I think Dable likes how quickly he processes. Not like the predetermined. Yes, he's got a. He's going to need a year to kind of break off. Lane Kiffin is phenomenal at what he does. I like. I love Lane as an individual. That office, it's awesome.

Mel Kiper Jr. (76:52)

It's.

Todd McShay (76:52)

Lane is in college. It's absolutely brilliant because it exploits college players. Just can't catch up as quickly. There's going to be an adjustment period for Dart. So what better place with two seasoned veterans, right? You got Russell Wilson, who's going to lead by example. Right. And then you've got Jameis Winston, who's going to lead vocally and kind of show him how it's done. And Brian Dabo. I've told you the amount of respect I have for Brian, like, through the roof, okay? So this is a great opportunity to get your guy. Now we can win more games this year. We got Abdul Carter. Now we've got the quarterback of our future and we can develop them properly. Right? I love this. I'm not saying it's going to be in this spot. I love this conceptually. Remember, I told you, Joe Shane, if Brian is the guy who. Who makes the decision on which quarterback or maybe narrows that list down to two. And you have to trust him. And then Brian and then Joe Shane has got to be the guy that manages this whole deal. And if this is how it plays out to both Brian and to Joe shane. All right, 2029 now, commanders, one of my guys. Yeah, why don't you take this one.

Mel Kiper Jr. (78:10)

You know Donovan as a raku from Boston College, polished pass rusher. He's. We could talk about his frame a little bit. He's a smaller guy, but he's long and he's in the hands and the way he sets up his moves. And you said this the other day. It might take me a year. It might take him a little while to catch on. I don't know, man. I think you might be right about it. I think he's ready to go. I think they can go in a couple of different directions. The commanders could, but I love the value here. I think he's a late first round pick. So to me, this is going to be said ad nauseam for me. Edge rushers, offensive tackles. Edge rushers, offensive tackles. If it's not a quarterback, then that's what I'm telling you. You should be trying to get in the first round. I think they're the biggest impact players you can get.

Todd McShay (78:51)

Let me give you four other names that I've heard with Washington here. And again, they're picking at 29. It's a beautiful place to pick. You sit and wait and see what falls to you. Josh Connerly at offensive tackle is legitimately in play here. Travion Henderson. I've heard more than Omari and Hampton and I'm not certain if it's because a lot of people just assumed Omari and Hampton would be gone, but I do believe that those two running backs would be in play.

Mel Kiper Jr. (79:14)

Does Henderson a better compliment to Robinson maybe?

Todd McShay (79:16)

Absolutely right.

Mel Kiper Jr. (79:17)

They're a little bit more of.

Todd McShay (79:18)

There's a little more compliment eckler too, but. Yeah, yeah. And then Nick Ihman. Warri. This is a spot. I think this is about the range where Ian Warri could go. But again, like Miami's had him in. There's a. But if you go and track all the 30 visits like Eman worry's been in a lot and a lot of that has to do with. There's some, you know, football. What are we bringing in? The buildings. Personality stuff. Football character, focus on the field. I saw it on tape and apparently like it matches up with some of that stuff. So I think people are trying to figure out who, who we're bringing in. But even Worry's traits are like, his combine workout was like thing of legends. Yeah, I mean it was stupid, but. But those are the names Connerly, the two backs, Henderson and Hampton and Nick Eamon Worry that I've heard with Washington as well. I like this pick for Buffalo. I think Buffalo is going to go against the grain and stick with their board. And I have an appreciation for Buffalo and how they do things, things. Savone Revel, cornerback, East Carolina is the pick that, and I know that would be surprising to a lot of people. I'm not saying he's definitely going the first. I'm not saying he's definitely going here. I, I've just, I've heard some different names with them. I heard Trey Amos, the Ole Miss cornerback as well. I think Buffalo is absolutely a team that could be looking to move back a little bit, get the same player four or five picks later, early in the second round. They don't have a third round pick, but Buffalo does have this pick, 30, then 56 and 62. So it would be really frigging cool if you're being the GM and you're able to move back four, five, six spots, get the same player and now pick it. Like, let's say, I don't know, 35, 37 range pick again at 56, pick again at 62 and then have a third round pick. That to me seems like where the Bills are.

Mel Kiper Jr. (81:04)

That's how you manage a board.

Todd McShay (81:05)

That's how you manage a board. And obviously it's what they would, I think they would like to do. But you got to have a dance partner, right? Kansas City Chiefs Josh Simmons is a tough one. Man, I would love this fit. Most talented offensive lineman in the draft. It's one thing mentioned I do agree on. There's. There's immaturity, there's baggage.

Mel Kiper Jr. (81:27)

With me or him?

Todd McShay (81:28)

Both.

Mel Kiper Jr. (81:29)

Both.

Todd McShay (81:32)

But Andy Reid, I, I just, I kind of, I like this. They haven't, they haven't shied away from being bringing in guys that they need to channel. Okay.

Mel Kiper Jr. (81:42)

Yeah. What's not to like about this?

Todd McShay (81:43)

I love this pick. I just, I wonder if Simmons will still be there. I, I have heard a lot about interior defensive line. So if a Harmon were to fall, I don't think Kenneth Grant from Michigan will. But just keep an eye out on that when we get to pick 31, 32. I got news for you folks. My good friend Howie Roseman, like, he's not sitting still, you know this about Howie. Most picks of any team currently in this year and next year's.

Mel Kiper Jr. (82:10)

How does that happen?

Todd McShay (82:11)

Because he's a fucking genius and he.

Mel Kiper Jr. (82:14)

Works people over and he gets, don't answer that call. Stop answering his call.

Todd McShay (82:19)

He'll all of a sudden like the fifth round, you'll make this move and then they'll parlay that into this. And then before you know it, he's turned it into a third. You ever watch those YouTube videos that my kids are obsessed with and I like fight all the time to keep them off of the YouTube and I'm doing a pretty good job and not perfect, but I've seen these videos where it's like this guy, he started out with like 10 pennies. Yes, yes. And then it be traveling around and then we had to make like 18 to afford a sleeping blanket tonight. And then I'm like, great. So we're now promoting like a 14, 17 year old kid driving around on a, on a, on a bike and living homeless for two nights in Los Angeles. But anyway, my point is how he does that. And so the biggest shock in the first round of how he just sticks at 32, doesn't move up or back. But Mason Taylor is a name that I keep coming back to. Mason Taylor is a player that is when I talk to teams, he's a lot higher on the board than what the public has been. Okay, so whether I'm just giving you the information Mason Taylor is more likely than not to go in the first round, or if I'm giving you the information that Dallas with one of its early picks could go, whether it's Mason Taylor or Elijah Arroyo or Ferguson from Oregon or Harold Fannin from Bowling Green. I'm just saying there's going to be a tight end pick by Philly. Philly's not going to pick it. Pick 32 and Mason Taylor is going to go a little bit earlier than people think.

Mel Kiper Jr. (83:40)

Three tight ends the first round.

Todd McShay (83:42)

Let's wrap this up because I owed it to Detroit to give them a pick and if I had to get to 34, you got to go through 33. I'll give you 34 before 33. Detroit. I had them moving back to 34. I would love that. Pick up a third. As I just mentioned, you got a couple picks in the second. Like this would be a great. No, that was Buffalo. What's Detroit situation? Detroit? Oh, they've got their, their chalk across 28, 60, 102. But to pick up a, a the 99th pick, then all Of a sudden you get a little bit more ammunition in on day two I went with Tui Mola Lao.

Mel Kiper Jr. (84:17)

Good for you.

Todd McShay (84:18)

You know the hard part I realized about Tui Mola Laos name I say it brilliantly. I think the Tui I think the Tui Molalao family would be proud of the way I say it. It's the JT before it that makes me stumble. So let's practice this together. J.T. tui molalao. Oh, I did it. I think he's very much underrated. I think he's got a chance to hear his name late in the first if not first 57 picks of the second round the edge from Ohio State. I'd love that pick grit starter tough like I just like that that fit in Detroit or really anyone that needs.

Mel Kiper Jr. (84:52)

Who helped themselves more in the playoff run him or Howard Will Howard the quarterback it might be JT man it.

Todd McShay (84:58)

Might be JT because run he had a because it's going to show off more likely will Howard to be interested to see if he goes in the third round final one going back to pick 33 Cleveland Browns I went with Shador Sanders here and it's not because I just wanted to get Shador's name and I honestly think I've said this all along. Is the is the climate, the conditions, the division perfect for Shador who doesn't have the elite arm strength? No. But it's not perfect for Kirk Cousins and they wanted that like that Kevin Stefanski version of the system. The west coast, right. The Shanahan. All he he's done the winning with with quarterbacks that don't have big arms, that that aren't the biggest guys, that aren't the most mobile guys. He does it with guys that under like literally are. It's like an extension of his brain on the field. Processing quickly, getting the ball out, working within the system like keep them offensive, moving, accurate touch timing, leading receivers get get yards after catching. I think Shador would be perfect there. And then you add the fact that you Travis Hunter in that relationship they have now are you worried about it's going to be those two again and like he's not our starter and how's that going to play out and then will there be dissension if Shador is not rising fast enough? I don't know. I'm just here to tell you. I just told you that the pool is shrinking. It has shrunk for Shador in terms of teams that really value him in terms like wanting to spend a first or early second round pick. And if it's, if it's not Cleveland, is it the Raiders? I don't think so. It's not the jets, it's not the Giants, it's not the Saints. So this seems to me like the most likely landing spot for sure. We love you. We appreciate you. We've gone too long, as I always do. Here's the top 32. Top 34, actually, I should say two bonus picks. Please go subscribe. You just got all my explanations. If you, if you hung in here for the entire hour plus and I appreciate you for doing that. But also just go subscribe. You can get this. We're gonna have another freaking Dan, man. He's already talking to me about some article we got to write tomorrow.

Mel Kiper Jr. (87:16)

Dan, who hasn't slept, wants to want.

Todd McShay (87:17)

To write another article. I said this when we started this. I want to surround myself with a bunch of lunatics. Productive. Hungry. Love it. Lunatics. And we've, we've found them.

Mel Kiper Jr. (87:31)

Yeah, we've got a family.

Todd McShay (87:32)

We found, we found the crew. And I don't think everyone wants to be called a lunatic behind the window there. But I mean it in the most loving way. I don't like people who just want to work the 9 to 5. So that's it. Hey, Thursday night, come join us live stream hour before throughout the draft, subscribe to the McShay Report. Go get it. We'll have if I've got to make it, I'm telling you right now, if I've got to make an update overnight, I don't want to. But if there's that breaking news and we got to come clean this mock draft up, there will be a mock 4.1. Won't be a 5.0, will be a 4.1. And so if you want to be out ahead of it, if not, we're going to have some kind of article, last minute news that we're hearing and then we're back here tomorrow maybe with another show if we have to for a 4.1. If not, it will be at the live stream. It's going to be an event. Please be involved. Stick with us. We appreciate your support and we'll see you tomorrow. Must be 21 + and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit MD gambling help.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-87-7-8, Hope NY or text Hope NY in New York SA.