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The McShay Show
NFL Combine Day 3 Reactions: Nick Emmanwori’s Historic Performance and Maxwell Hairston’s Big Day. Plus, An Exclusive Interview with Louisville QB Tyler Shough.
01:39:47
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- [00:00]
Todd McShay
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- [00:39]
Mel Kiper Jr.
This episode is brought to you by Marvel Television's Daredevil. Born Again. Charlie Cox returns as vigilante lawyer Matt Murdock and Vincent D'Onofrio as former mob boss Wilson Fisk. The darker side of Matt Murdock is revealed when and he gains a new perspective on his role as the Daredevil and faces an internal struggle between justice and revenge. The devil's work is never done. Don't miss the two episode premiere of Born Again on March 4th, only on Disney.
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Unknown Speaker
The.
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Todd McShay
We are back, men. We are back. It is day two of workouts of the 2025 NFL combine. 55 days left until the NFL draft meant. You good?
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Unknown Speaker
I'm great, man.
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Todd McShay
All right, good. Because we got to get into this thing. We got a lot going on. We moved sets, thankfully. Finally, I want to give a special thank you to Nick and Jake, our camera folks extraordinaire who have traveled with us from California to Mobile, Alabama, back to California with all their other duties and here now in Indianapolis, they moved us over from radio row. I'm done with that. I'm done with it.
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Unknown Speaker
Different vibes.
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Todd McShay
No, we're not going to be there next year. Like, it's great and everyone can have fun with it, but like, this is, this is us, right? And I also want to give a special thanks to Tucker and to Dan, who helped run all of this, our producers extraordinaire who have been, you know, boots on the ground making all this stuff happen. And also a thank you to the Intercontinental Hotel. We stumbled upon this place. I know no one wants to hear this story, but you're gonna have to listen for 30 seconds. We stumbled upon this place. We were supposed to go to one hotel. It never runs for us. A team showed up from the NBA. They, they decided they were gonna, you know, bump us out. It was like 6:00 at night. So we're walking around, we gotta go to the bathroom. We Come into the bathroom here at this hotel, the Intercontinental. Like, this is nice. Let's see if they got rooms here. We traded, we changed over. They opened up a week ago. Folks, if you're in Indianapolis, come out, come and check this place out. It's a wonderful spot. We've had unbelievable service and they've helped us. They've been open for one week and they, they've got this beautiful room for us. And now we're going to do our show here tonight live. We push it back to 8 o'clock. Too many workouts, too much going on. We were scrambling last night. So we've made adjustments. It's a better show. It fits us better. And we just, you know, we're very thankful for everyone here, including Jade, who served us lunch today and is a wonderful woman. And it just got me thinking. It was a perfect transition to Jade Baron. Had a really good day today too. So here we go. Man, did we need fireworks. Let's just call it what it was. We're excited about it. There were some good things to talk about yesterday with the defensive line workouts, interior and the edges. And we're so excited because these classes, historically good group for interior defensive linemen, probably the best since 1992. Great edge talent. But a lot of the top players did not work out and there was just, it just didn't live up to the hype. So we needed some fireworks today and oh my gosh, did we get it. Two players to me were stole the show. First of all, Nick Emanwaurie from South Carolina, your guy. And secondly, Maxwell Hairston, the cornerback from Kentucky. We've so much to unpack and there were a whole host of other great players that worked out. But there's a lot that the trickle down effective effectiveness at the top of the board at both of the positions in the first round. This is going to get interesting now. Nikki Minwari. I got a phone call from my guy Mensch in August. We're talking about, I'm talking about, I don't know where we're going to work this year. I've interviewed with, you know, we've had conversation with nine different places. We got to figure it out, how to make it all work. And he's like, yeah, but you got to watch this safety Nick Iman worry. And I don't even think we were pronouncing it right at that point from South Carolina. And I'm like, man, fine, okay. And I popped in the tape and there's a lot to like we saw, we can get into who he is as a player. Tell me what he did tonight that absolutely. Like Indianapolis is buzzing over what just happened.
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Unknown Speaker
We knew it was coming. I mean we knew this guy was gonna have a big workout.
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Todd McShay
Yeah, but not like this.
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Unknown Speaker
Not like this.
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Todd McShay
Yeah.
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Unknown Speaker
So he's six foot three, 220 pounds, 32 and a quarter inch arms. Put that into a little bit of perspective. 31 1/2 inches is what you're looking for. So that's, that's longer obviously. 32 and a quarter. Then he runs a 4, 3, 8, 40 yard dash, has an 11 foot 6 inch broad jump, and then it has a 43 inch vertical. Those are outrageous numbers for any defensive back, let alone a guy that's 6, 220 pounds. And everyone's trying to come up with these comps. You know, what are the, who are the other safeties that he compares to? An NFL network came up with DK Metcalf, the receiver from Seattle. That's how athletic this guy is. And when you look at it, DK Metcalf was 6 foot 3, 228 pounds, 40 1/2 inch vertical and a 4, 3, 3, 40 yard dash. That's how athletic this kit is.
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Todd McShay
And you start to, you start to like look at it. And comparatively like the RAS score, right? The RAS score, that. Which basically takes all of your. Your measurables and puts it into an athletic grade. I thought this was amazing. You go back, right? It's out of, it's out of a 10.0. His RAZ score was a perfect 10 point. I think it's 10.0, right? Yes, 10.0. Perfect 10.0. I can't remember like there have been a couple guys, but there have been 10, 79 strong safeties dating back to 1987. Mensch. 1987. All the way through this year, 2025. Including everyone who worked out today, he has the number one RAZ score. Like think about that.
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Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
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Todd McShay
Of all the strong safeties who have ever worked out here. Okay. Did you mention the best vertical jump by anyone over £200 ever?
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Unknown Speaker
I did not put that in perspective. No, I just gave a number. Yeah.
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Todd McShay
The vertical jump of 43 inches is the best of any player at the combine. Over 200 pounds. So we've had like 197 pound guys, some receivers, some corners, sub 200. And by the way, he's 220. Like if you didn't watch it, get when you're done with the show in about an hour or so. And knowing me, it'll be like an hour and a half. I get it. Make all the jokes. Everyone's smirking in the background. I see you, Tucker and Dan and Jake and Nick, but you gotta watch what like to watch someone with that length, in that height at 220 pounds, that's like a will linebacker, right?
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Unknown Speaker
To get off the ground.
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Todd McShay
To get off the ground, to be able to, to generate power from the ground up. And it's just fascinating to me. We've lit when I said to you in the beginning, like, we've, we've quite literally like never seen what we saw today. That's what I mean. And a Raz score that the best since, you know, going back, since they started this in 1983 or 1987. It's just, it was, it was phenomenal. I think he would have been a.
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Unknown Speaker
10 in most positions, by the way. Not just safety, a corner wide receiver. He would have graded.
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Todd McShay
Yeah.
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Unknown Speaker
I mean, absurdly high. And no matter which, which way you wanted to grade him out, regardless of the position.
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Todd McShay
Okay, a couple things I want to get to here specifically with, with Iman worry and the safety class and in this draft. First of all, Malachi Starks is a damn good football player. Right. The Georgia safety. Most people mocked him as the first safety off the board. First round, didn't have the best season this past year. But if you really go back and study his tape, it was some hero ball here and there. Gambled and had some ugly plays that jumped out. But he's just instinctive, well packed. He'll fill the alley versus the run. Just like an all around, really, really good football player. I think I saw the comparison today. Jesse Bates, like, I'm cool with that ball skills, complete player, will support the run. Good, very good in coverage, can do, can play zone. That was, I remember going back to my report. It's popping back in my head now. Like, not many guys move like he moves, can cover in man and can cover and zone the way he does. And like these are special guys.
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Unknown Speaker
Right.
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Todd McShay
But you wake up this morning right near Malachi Starks and you've been considered a top 40 pick this entire process. And quite frankly, like, if you looked at like rankings and mock drafts, like kind of a top 15 guy for a long time until this season didn't go exactly as planned. But you wake up this morning you're like, yeah, I'm six one, I'm 197. I'm a safety. Right. It's tough when the other guy though is 2 1/2 inches taller than you, weighs 23 more pounds, has an inch longer arm, arm length, which is important, very important at the defensive back spot. And jumps 10 inches higher than you and runs a 438 to your 545 0. Think about that. Like you don't draft on measurables. Right? Right. But you do draft on potential and traits and, and tape combined with that. So I'm gonna say this. I think you go back and look at a lot of mock drafts. Told you. I don't travel and do games. Like I, I peek around a little bit more just to kind of get a sense. I won't look at Doris Kuiper though. I won't. You're getting a call. We still owe him a call. But look at most. Look at most mock drafts people talking about out there. You don't look at my mock draft. Get the newsletter, by the way. Google it. The McShay report first mock draft just came out. We're going to put up another one shortly after the combine because we just, we got to update things because things are going to change and one of the things that's going to change is Nick Eamonwauri. I didn't put him in the first round. I like I listed in the top of the thing guys that probably should have been or very easily could have been but we're not in this first mock draft. And even more, he was right at the top of that list. He's going to be in the next one when mock 2.0 comes out. He's going to be in the next one. I looked at, I took a peek today because I just can't help myself. There's a range now that I think is a possibility and I'm not saying it's definitely going to be one of those these teams but there's, there's kind of a range of teams that I'm looking at now. Fourteen being maybe the highest. But we're talking the Colts at 14 now. Like they're in play.
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Unknown Speaker
Huh.
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Todd McShay
I think potentially. I'm not saying it's definitely going to happen but like I think the conversation starts when you get to that middle first round range 18 Minnesota 24 Seattle Buffalo 30 Eagles 32. Like he's going to be in the first round. You don't, you don't have those kind of traits combined with really good tape, not perfect tape, really good tape and that. Let's transition to that. And we have so much else to get to. I don't want to do a 30 minute show on even worry. But From a tape perspective. And I told you, I think there's some miscommunication. I don't know that he's always prepared pre snap sometimes. There was miscommunication in the bowl game about him playing the second half of the game. I guess there's some issues that scouts have tried to like figure out what's going on with that and he didn't do. I should should mention and it's smart. Like agents oftentimes don't give good advice. But I. You go out and put up these numbers and you're a straight line explosive guy and you're that tall, you're probably not going to look as good as the 5, 9, 511 safeties when it comes to like the box drill and the change of direction stuff that they ask you in position drill. So he didn't do that here, but on tape, while he's not perfect and there are some flaws, what is it that stood out to you dating back to August that you just really thought that this guy had a chance to be a first round.
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Unknown Speaker
So if, if I come into your office and you're the GM and I'm a scout and you say to me, GMs aren't interesting in hearing what a player can't do. They want to know what a player can do. And if you're the GM and you say to me, what can he do? I say everything. He is versatile. I, I almost don't like the way they used him a little bit this year. They played him in the box. They've always played him in the box. Don't get me wrong. He plays in the box a lot at that size. He can get off blocks, he's tough, he's good against the run, all of those things. I like him over the slot. I like playing him high. He's a 4, 3, 8 guy. I know he's 6, 3, 2, 20 and it was even, it was wild to me that there was some talk about maybe about him maybe moving to linebacker. That makes zero sense to me. This guy is a safety all day, every day. He can play over the slot, he can play high, he can play in the box, he can match up with tight ends, he can play zone. I think he's got outrageous ball skills. Is there some concerns on tape? Sure, I'll give you that. I thought he missed some tackles this year that I was a little bit surprised by. There are some issues on tape. No one is completely clean. But if you're asking me what are his abilities and what can he do the answer is everything.
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Todd McShay
Yeah, It. I just love the versatility. I love. He's not Kyle Hamilton. I like. Kyle Hamilton's tape was brilliant, but Kyle Hamilton didn't run that well.
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Unknown Speaker
No.
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Todd McShay
Cam Chancellor. I actually think he's a better athlete because people wanted. I saw that comp today coming up on. On NFL Network, and I get it, like, the height, weight, speed, length, all that stuff. But with. With Cam Chancellor, I. I truly. Cam Chancellor was going to knock your, you know, what off. And he, like, he was great coming downhill and all those things, and he. And he was a ball hawk. He made some big plays. But I think with this guy, you get a more fluid athlete. I think you get some more. Some more cover flexibility. Right, Right. I really do. And, yeah, I agree with you. Like, so when you walk into the GM's office, it's how, like, how's he gonna succeed? Right. Right. And I've always talked about this because I talked to a lot of GMs. The next thing they want to know is, how's it. How's it not going to work? How's it going to fail? Okay. And I think. I think putting, like, you know, play on words, but like, putting him in a box where you just make him one thing. And part of that being, like, too much in the box. Right. In terms of, like, up close to the line of scrimmage might be the way if we don't play him properly and utilize him properly and maybe develop him and allow him to start doing these things, but then expand his role. Like, Kyle Hamilton's role has changed over time.
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Unknown Speaker
Right.
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Todd McShay
So it's going to be fascinating to see where he goes.
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Unknown Speaker
By the way, he will turn the ball over, and then he is a threat when he gets the ball in his hands. He had two big sixes this year. He is a danger to go the other way every single time he gets his hands on the ball.
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Todd McShay
I want to thank everyone, by the way, I didn't thank everyone. Off the top. If you're joining us live right now, is the combine workouts. We've got it on the background here. It's like the best studio we've ever had. Yeah, I got. They're going to have to peel my ass out of this place. All right. I'm telling you on Sunday morning. Sunday morning. Like, I don't want to go. I think I found a second home in Indy, but. But I want to thank everyone because I'm just looking down. We've got the live chat going on. We got. We got how we Are Bears and Thomas H. And Joe Terzio. Like, thank you for everyone. And we'll get to some of these questions. Say, I don't feel like. I feel like it took. It's been a minute since we did the live shows. We did one yesterday. We were scrambling too many numbers. But we'll get to some. Some questions and some comments as the, as the show goes on. So stick with us. We appreciate you being here. All right. I mentioned Eamon Worry. Yep. Absolutely stole the show. But at the cornerback position, there was a guy that we knew was going to work out well, but I didn't think. I don't think that I quite knew the level that we were going to see from, from our boy Hairston. Right. Maxwell Hairston from Kentucky. And I should mention this, some of the top corners did not work out. Okay. And, and Travis Hunter, like, I'm not gonna bang a drum here. Travis Hunter's. Travis Hunter is generational talent. We've never seen anything like it. But I do find it funny that, like, we spent all this time and all this media and it's on the media as much as it is on, on, I guess the information coming out. But it was like this big deal that Travis Hunter had decided to, to play cornerback and then would do some wide receiver position drills. He didn't do a damn thing. No, he didn't do a damn thing here, so it's okay.
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Unknown Speaker
But, but, but what's the point?
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Todd McShay
Yeah, what's the point? Right? What's the point? So he didn't do anything. Will Johnson, the cornerback from Michigan, did not, did not work out. Jade Baron. We're going to get to him. He, he was limited in what he did, but what he did, he knocked it out. Benjamin Morrison gets a pass. Obviously he's got the hip injury coming off the season. Savone Revel, the cornerback from East Carolina, who I, I'm in love with.
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Unknown Speaker
I think he would have lit it.
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Todd McShay
Up if he could have gone and I'm going to get to him in a little bit. But did not participate because coming off the acl. So a lot of guys didn't work today. But it still was an awesome showing because.
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Unknown Speaker
Great day.
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Todd McShay
It was a great day. Maxwell Hairston, he's a zone cover corner for, for, for Kentucky. Great. When the ball's in the air. Confidence that he exudes. He just, like some guys are magnets to the football. He's one of them. Listen to this. 5, 5, 11 and a quarter. 183 pounds. So you're like, yeah, so what makes Shea, you know. Yes, he's. He's kind of slightly undersized, or I would say average. That's about average. Right.
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Unknown Speaker
He's a little small, a little bit.
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Todd McShay
Small, a little bit lean. Right. We're in a four two eight, folks. This guy came out and ran a four two eight official time in the 40 yard dash. He hit 24.25 miles per hour. That's the fifth fastest of any player at any position in the combine the last three years. Okay. He also is a little guy, 39 and a half inch vertical and 10, nine broad. Both were second best in the entire cornerback class. So you talk about coming out and just sending a message. All right. All right, Travis. All right, Will. All right, Benjamin. All right. All right, Sivone, you guys aren't working out for various reasons, and I'm not catching you, but I'm going to let every other team in the NFL know that, like, I'm. I'm the other guy. Right. You know, because there's a competition here. Truly. And I've talked about this before, this cornerback class, you can kind of like break into two groups, one being like the press man guys, the guys who hold up well in press man to man coverage or any kind of man to man coverage primarily over their career, and that's how they project. Then there's another group of guys that are the zone cover guys. And in that group, Jade Baron, who can play, who can do a little both. Yeah. But has played primarily zone and excels in that because of his instincts. Behind him, I've got Benjamin Morrison from, from Notre Dame, who's 6 foot. He checked in at just over 6 foot. 193 pounds, shorter arms, no red flags, but obviously didn't work out because of the hip. And then it's, it's Hairston, so. So now I'm looking at Hairston, I'm like, well, he's not, not that much shorter than Morrison. He's 10 pounds lighter, but he probably played close to 190. And he just ran a 428 and he just jumped almost 40 inches.
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Unknown Speaker
You just giving him 7 pounds. You think he's gonna play a 190?
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Todd McShay
I think he could, yeah. I mean, did you, did you. Well, you actually did lose weight later, but you're an offensive lineman. But I don't, I don't know many, I don't know many athletes that get into the NFL and don't put on weight. Okay, Truly. Okay, truly. I'm. Okay, fine. 180. What is. No, no, if you want to believe that, believe. I think, I think he'll get to close to 190. Yeah. Okay. He'll wind up playing at about 190.
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Unknown Speaker
That's good. Yeah.
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Todd McShay
Okay. I don't know. What did you see from Harrison?
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Unknown Speaker
It matches up what I saw on tape, which is the great part about it. Right. We watched tape on him together, I believe. And he is. Or no, we text each other after we watch them around the same time. Lightning quick on tape, man. I know. He's his own guy. I think he's got some man traits. He is. He's just so. He's so fast, so quick. Gets in and out of breaks. He doesn't have big hands. You know, he has smaller hands, but for a guy with smaller hands, he plays the ball well. You see him on tape.
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He.
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One of the ways that he uses that speed is to break on passes in front of him, jump routes and like we were talking about, even worry. Take it the other way. He is a. He's a. Another guy who's a playmaker when the ball's in the air.
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Todd McShay
Yeah, I just, I just finished up his. His evaluation and I want to get to a couple things on it. I know this is great television, but I don't care. Hairston, you look at. Yeah. He's six interceptions, 10 pass breakups. Right. And. And force, three fumbles. He had tied a school record, too, for the most pick sixes with three. Excels in zone coverage. Nearly 400 snaps last year in Cover 3 or Cover 4. Ability to play outside and in this slot, he's been like, highly effective in the slot, but he can play both sides. The thing, the ball production was awesome. Fast eyes, smaller hands, as you said, not a good tackler. That's going to be the big thing that shows up, and it's going to be frustrating. I gave him a four in our, in our rating scale, one is outstanding, two is above average. Good threes average, four is below average. And it's concerning.
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Unknown Speaker
Can I get into that just really quick?
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Todd McShay
Yeah, please.
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Unknown Speaker
He had a shoulder injury this year, and he had 55 solo tackles the year before. And so when I saw that, I thought to myself, well, maybe I need to dig a little bit deeper. Maybe I need to go back the 20, 23 tape. And I did. And what I saw a lot of was him running guys out of bounds and you get a tackle there, and it's. To me, I, I still, I know that numbers. I mean, 55 solo tackles is a good number for a corner. I Saw that number, I went back. I still have concerns about, about him as a run defender.
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Todd McShay
Yeah, I kind of saw some Casey Hayward, remember back in the day or like Jason Verrett, like slot corners, ball hawks just find a way to ball.
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Unknown Speaker
Magnets guys somehow ball finds.
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Todd McShay
But now that I know he has these TR that like that adds to it as a zone cover quarter, there's more you can do and develop. So I don't know, I, I thought Harrison, I just think he's going to be a number three starting corner as a rookie. He's just, he's, he's too instinctive, he's too fast, he's. He's got too good a ball skills not to, to be a consistent player on the field. And I think he can develop into a number two top 50 guy probably. Yeah man, yeah. Yeah. I mean this cornerback like Travis Hunter is going to be one of the top three picks, right? Somewhere, somewhere high. Jade A. Baron to me is one of the top 10 players in this entire class. We're getting 20 seconds. Will Johnson. I told you the tape was frustrating because there were a lot of great plays and there were a lot of like really, really bad plays for a guy who's going to be a top 15 top 20 pick. But then as I said, there's a competition that is going to, that is kind of taking place between now and through the pro days and leading up to the draft and it will have something to do with medical behind the scenes. What's the information on the hit for Benjamin Morrison? What's the information on the ACL for Savone Revel from East Carolina? AZ Thomas, cornerback from Florida State, had a good day, looked good in position drills.
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Unknown Speaker
He looked really good in the field.
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Todd McShay
Didn't run a 40, had a 102 broad jump. It was kind of a weird day field stuff. Did a broad jump, didn't do a vertical, didn't do the runs, didn't do the 40. But they're kind of in a competition I think, I think Az Thomas at 61 and a half, 19732 and. And 38 inches arms. If he, if he winds up running, he's not going to run a 4:2:8 right. You know, God only gives so many. But if he runs in like low four fours, then I think the tape, you look at it like this guy's an outside press man, corner right versus Hairston, who's a slot zone guy who can do some matchup one, one on one stuff. He's going to get me the Ball more probably, but like not a ton more. Whereas Thomas can, can give. Provide something different in terms of the outside press, man, that agree that he does. So that competition just got a little bit more interesting. Even though they're, they're all different cats. Right?
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Unknown Speaker
Right.
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Todd McShay
Zone, man, all that. But I think when you start to look at that, I don't know, picks 28 to 40, 45, I think all those names are going to come off the board. And Hairston, to me, just kind of stamped it. Right. Other corners that stood out. We'll go through the corners here and then we'll, we'll get to some of the other safeties that stood out. Right.
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Unknown Speaker
Got to talk about your guy.
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Todd McShay
Let me also mention this before anyone goes anywhere, okay. And I see you. I like, I, I love the fact we just got this, this chat rolling and everyone's getting involved. The live chat. We got 376 messages. We just kicked things off. Shop keys telling me the Darien Porter is him and he ran a 4, 3. Oh, we're going to get to him, Shock. Trust me, we're going to get.
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Unknown Speaker
I can't wait to talk about.
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Todd McShay
You're feeling it, but I want to tell everyone this is important. Tyler Schuck, the surprise of our entire show, the McShay show, began on October 22nd. Okay.
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Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
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Todd McShay
20, 24. The most positive surprise that we've had to date. And we've interviewed three general managers. We've been to the Senior bowl. We've been here. We've done live shows. We've had, we've had Herb street on. We've had Joel Klatt, Pollock, the whole gang, right? The most pleasant and wonderful surprise of this show so far, at least for me.
- [26:51]
Unknown Speaker
I think you were underselling it. It was better than pleasant. And it was just an unreal conversation.
- [26:55]
Todd McShay
It was enlightening.
- [26:56]
Unknown Speaker
Great.
- [26:57]
Todd McShay
It was enlightenment. And honest to God, after talking to him for about 45 minutes today. And I'm not one of those guys. Like, I've interviewed plenty of people and, like, it's been really nice and friendly. And when I'm done, I'm like, yeah, I'm worried about that guy. Or I'm not sure. Or I, I'm not. I don't know. Either way. Tyler Schuck was awesome because he showed wisdom and he's been through it, man. Three injuries at Louisville. He has been through the wars. He thought his career was over, like, twice, Right. He was carted off the field. He told us today. And I'm not going to give any more about this interview. Carted off the field and thought his leg was detached from. Like, he didn't know if he was ever going to play football again.
- [27:36]
Unknown Speaker
He said walk again.
- [27:37]
Todd McShay
So he's like, yeah, man, I'm here. I'm throwing, I'm throwing. I'm like, I'm whatever you guys want. Like, I'm just blessed to be. But it was more than that. Like, the, the amount of, like, depth and the interesting answers. It was. I said it when we got in the car, driving back. It was the most interesting interview that I've ever been a part of. And I've talked to hall of Famers. I've done all, like, I've been very fortunate to do all of it because there was insight in this young man that I hadn't seen before, talking to all these quarterbacks coming out. Truly, it was awesome. So if you're watching now on YouTube, when the show's over, right, when the show's over, we're going to throw it up on the home page, on the YouTube homepage, right? McShay show homepage, where you can watch it at around 9pm it's going to be there. And then if you're watching or listening on Spotify or wherever you get your. Your podcast, just stay here, okay? Just stay here. At the end of the show, it'll. We'll. We'll run the Tyler Schuck interview, the Louisville quarterback who, by the way, with Cam Ward not throwing, Shador Sanders not throwing, right? And in a class where there's that. Those are the two at the top, everyone says. But I told you, his tape this year is every bit as good as those other guys. I promise you, it's one year. It's three injuries, but it's. But it's his first full year as a starter healthy. And so if that's what's to come in the future, he could be the absolute surprise of this year's draft. And you maybe get him in the second around. So that's coming up at the end of the show. Other cornerbacks, don't leave them waiting.
- [29:13]
Unknown Speaker
Go into Porter or did you talk about Jade yet?
- [29:16]
Todd McShay
Porter.
- [29:17]
Unknown Speaker
Want to go to Porter?
- [29:18]
Todd McShay
Fine, I'll give you Jade. Yeah, Jade ran a 439. I said, I don't see the speed like the elite speed. I thought he was going to be around a four or five. I was worried. I. I've said all along, Brian Branch, right, Not identical, but like, similar type situation. What is he. Is he. Is he a nickel? Is he A safety. Is he a qu. Corner? The measurables aren't great. Jade A shows up here in Indy. It's 5, 5, 1, 0, 6 5, 10 and 3, 4 inches. Like, here we go again. 194. Okay, but like 20. Oh, 29 and 5, 8 inch arms.
- [29:54]
Unknown Speaker
I was wondering if you could bring it up.
- [29:55]
Todd McShay
Yeah, you texted me. I was out. I had to run out and grab something. That was. And I said to myself, that was this morning. That was this morning. Because the measurables came in. We got the. We actually. I forward you the list from an NFL team of all the measurables from the corner. So we got it by position. And then you read through it as I was out running. Nerds. And. And you've said 29, 5, 8 inches. And I was like, here we go. I just. I literally just planted the flag on the first day here at the combine on Jade Baron. And now it's like, yeah, he's five, ten and a half and. And 29, five eight inch arms, which is concerning. It's a red flag for defensive backs. And I'm like, yeah, now he's probably going to run a 4, 5, 2 or something. And we're going to have to try to explain away. Because you can't draft a guy with short arms and no speed. Right, Right in the. Where I'm talking, no matter how good the team is.
- [30:45]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [30:45]
Todd McShay
In the top 15 this class. But then he runs a 4, 3, 9, and it's like it doesn't make up for all the sins. Like, those are still red flags.
- [30:54]
Unknown Speaker
But can I say something about that?
- [30:55]
Todd McShay
Yes.
- [30:55]
Unknown Speaker
We kind of hinted about it with Will Johnson. We talked about this, I think, last night, where you had some concerns about Will Johnson and not making plays at the end. And I said to you, whenever you say that to me or whenever I see it, I immediately jump to length. And Will Johnson had shorter than average arms today, which, you know, makes sense when you're talking about guys who can't make plays at the point. I don't see it with Baron. So, yeah, he has shorter arms. But what makes me feel better about it is when I throw on the tape, I don't see a guy that looks like he has short arms.
- [31:26]
Todd McShay
You know, I don't either.
- [31:27]
Unknown Speaker
You know what I mean?
- [31:27]
So it only matters to me if. If it's an issue on tape, too. So, like, we talk about this with offensive.
- [31:34]
Todd McShay
I said to you yesterday, I think he has longer arms based off of the tape.
- [31:38]
Unknown Speaker
Exactly.
- [31:38]
Todd McShay
Right.
- [31:39]
Unknown Speaker
So we talk about the offensive tackles. Oh, he's got sub 34 inch arms. Okay, that's a concern. Now throw on the tape is a Y9's coming off the edge. It's a great speed rusher. How does he handle it? Is he okay? Okay then let's put it to bed. It doesn't matter that he doesn't have 34 inch arms. It's a little bit of a concern. You wish that he did. It's not as big of a deal as it might be for another player. And that's kind of how I felt about Baron. Yeah, I don't like the sub 30 inch arms. That's, that's alarming to me. But throw on the tape and he makes plays on the ball.
- [32:06]
Todd McShay
Yeah. And I don't have to go through it again. I gave the entire scouting report just a couple days ago. If you want to go back and listen to it all, it's on the first day of the combine coverage. It was two nights ago. I love them. I love the football player. I love the instincts. There are, there's a handful of guys every year. I don't even have to ask scouts or general managers what's the character. I don't have to call college coaches like 95% of the classic. You have to, you do a quick Google search, make sure there's no arrests or suspensions or anything like that. I know John A. Barron's a has phenomenal, phenomenal football character.
- [32:48]
Unknown Speaker
He had one of the best quotes at the podium this week talking about not getting caught up in the results and staying focused on the process. Not worrying about getting beat, just consistently focusing on what he can do better as a corner. And I was like, man, if that is your mindset every single snap, you're going to be all right, man.
- [33:01]
Todd McShay
Yeah. And, and, and you can just tell by his attention to detail and all the little things he does and the technique work that you don't wake up with. The technique work work and with the instincts like you, that is, that is drilled into you by hard work and by any tax absorbing coach he tackles. He does all of it. So like, yeah, I'm worried about it if he's not breaking up passes at the last second. I said that quite like, quite frankly, like I don't know that I've seen many guys that do a better job on the ball of detaching the wide receiver from the football the way he does at the very last second. So cross that concern off. And he's a really good tackler for his size. Like he really. Yeah, really sounds reliable tackler. So putting up some of these numbers helps. Running a 4, 3, 9 helps. And quite honestly it comes down to. Yeah, I don't see on tape a guy who has elite top end speed. And yeah, he was a 440 and the official came out was 439. It probably sounds a little better than it is but at the end of the day it's good speed and so like that, that concern isn't like completely crossed off but you, you go into a general manager, you sit in these meetings and someone doesn't like him in that group and someone, and by doesn't like him, I mean we're picking at 13. I can't draft a cornerback who runs a 452 with 29 inch arms and I just can't stomach it. But now he runs a 439 and I've got a counter if I'm the guy banging on the table. And a lot of times that's what it comes down to. So also part of his workout was a 35 inch vertical jump which is, which is good. And the broad jump was 10:6 which was fifth best amongst amongst all the cornerbacks. So not like an overly eventful day for Baron. And he didn't wind up doing the workouts which I was surprised the position workouts because I thought he would, would thrive in that role. Very clearly was working on getting that number right. And when he got that number he actually fell to his knees, said a prayer, got up and hugged Stacy Dale. Stacy Dale, the, the reporter and gave her a bear hug. That's how important it was for him to. Because the. He knows the only thing that's working against him are the measurables and to, to be able to put a, put a three behind that four point. It was important, man.
- [35:24]
Unknown Speaker
It's cool.
- [35:24]
Todd McShay
Yeah, it's really, really cool. All right, Mensch, let's get to it. Darian Porter.
- [35:30]
Unknown Speaker
You can't wait.
- [35:31]
Todd McShay
Darien Porter. Some guys doesn't happen overnight for some guys. Some guys like you are playing a position and it's not working. You got to make a transition whether it's in the program, whether it's, you know, you're struggling with that spot not often, but a handful of guys every year I feel like we see this. It's like late in their career they found, they found their home, they found their scheme. Tyler Schuck, we talked about, found his school, found his health, whatever it is. I love when guys go through the struggle and have to grind it out and nobody knows their name. Nobody knows about them. They're not, they're not contributing a ton even though they're working their ass off to try to contribute. And then all of a sudden it clicks. And for Porter, it clicked over the last couple years and then this year he had a breakout year. If you don't know Darian Porter, he's a tall, long cornerback who spent a lot of time early in his career. First couple years wide receiver, transitioned over to corner, had some struggles, had some ups and downs, but finally broke into the starting role full time and had an awesome breakout season this past year. Iowa State guy. These Iowa State guys are fast and can ball like perimeter guys.
- [36:47]
Unknown Speaker
Something's going on at Ames.
- [36:48]
Todd McShay
I love it. So Darian Porter, let's throw this graphic up Tuck. Okay. Reek Wolin, remember him? He was a 5th round pick of the Seahawks. It was a travesty that he fell to the fifth round but his tape was horrible. His tape at a small school level was just not good. So I get why he fell. I thought he would be closer to third round than fifth. That was shocking to me that he still was on the board 10 picks in to when the Seahawks took him in that fifth round. Okay but. And I'm not saying this is an identical matchup but my point is this and I don't think, I don't think Savone Revel is that far off of this situation. Even though the measurables aren't as close as they are with Porter. Both of these guys in Revel and Porter had an emergence late in their career but are still kind of raw, still need work. And with Wolin it was. He played corner but he just hadn't gotten the technique work. He was long and lean. You were worried is he. Can he make that transition from a small school to the NFL? Well with Porter it's similar. It's not the small school issue. It's. He just hasn't played a ton of ball there and it's just one year. But look at these numbers right? Reek Wolin, 6 4. Porter 6 3. Wolin 205. Porter's 195. I'm admitting there's, it's not a perfect comp but you see the tall, well built corners, 33 and 38 versus 33 and an eighth for, for the white, for the arm length which is massive. I've already, I've always told you it the, the no combination of measurables are more important at any position than arm length and 40 yard dash at cornerback. And his those arm lengths, 33 plus inch arms are phenomenal.
- [38:35]
Unknown Speaker
Phenomenal.
- [38:35]
Todd McShay
It's like God, God blessed you with something. So go, go, go be a corner. That's what you should do. If your arms are longer than 33 inches and you're not, and you're not a big guy like mensch, go be a corner. And then let's look at the 40 yard dashes. I mean it was ridiculous what Wallen ran. Can you believe he fell to the fifth? No, I had to look it back up today. Ran a four, four two six and had a 42 inch vertical.
- [38:59]
Unknown Speaker
Second round grade on him or third round grade?
- [39:01]
Todd McShay
Yes, second. We had a second thought he could fall to the third. Four two, six and 42 inch vertical. Well, Porter just like not far off right. Four three zero and had a third. What was his 36 and a half inch vertical. Am I reading that right? No more high? No, he's 40. He had a 40, right, 39 and a half.
- [39:20]
Unknown Speaker
Thank you, Tucker.
- [39:21]
Todd McShay
Speak up, Tucker. We want you on, we want you on the show. So yeah, 39. I wrote down 39 and a half. Okay, so like those, those measurable from the arm length to the speed to the vertical jump are somewhat similar. And the fact that they're both raw coming out, I think Porter's got so much to work with. And a former wide receiver with ball skills.
- [39:41]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [39:41]
And you were intrigued by the tape, right? You were already came into it thinking you saw again, how does it translate to the tape? And you throw on the tape and you said this kid, man, there's flashes. He's got some upside. The other thing I really like about him is he's going to be an outstanding special teams player.
- [39:54]
Todd McShay
Yes.
- [39:55]
Unknown Speaker
Right out the gate.
- [39:55]
Todd McShay
Yes.
- [39:56]
Unknown Speaker
He's going to start making plays for special on special teams right away.
- [40:01]
Todd McShay
So this, this cornerback class gets more interesting.
- [40:05]
Unknown Speaker
Can I talk about another roadrunner like Tariq Woolen?
- [40:08]
Todd McShay
Yeah, you can in one second, but let me just put a bow on it real quick.
- [40:11]
Unknown Speaker
Want to get to my road runners utsa.
- [40:13]
Todd McShay
All right, go ahead.
- [40:14]
Unknown Speaker
All right, Z Frazier.
- [40:15]
Todd McShay
Yep.
- [40:16]
Unknown Speaker
And I want you to remember what you just said. What's the most important things about corner.
- [40:20]
Todd McShay
Length in 40 time?
- [40:22]
Unknown Speaker
Zofra? 32 and 78 inch arms.
- [40:25]
Todd McShay
Okay.
- [40:26]
Unknown Speaker
43640.
- [40:28]
Todd McShay
Yes.
- [40:29]
Unknown Speaker
So that's what we're talking about, right? 6027. He's 186 pounds. This is a good looking kid. Right. He's got smaller hands. You saw it a little bit today on the on field workout. There was a couple times where he mishandled the ball, but he broke the UTSA single season record for interceptions last year with six. And when you watch the way he plays the ball and tape, the thing I love about him is he's always hunting, he's tracking the quarterback. He will come off his receiver to go make a play on the football. He's a guy. I'm intrigued by the tape. There's some things he's got to clean up. Panics a little bit late, gets a little bit grabby. But when you're talking about a guy with tools, yes, he's a guy that turns. He's someone who, who could be a mid round pick that you hit a.
- [41:07]
Mel Kiper Jr.
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- [43:31]
Todd McShay
Know that Hunter's coming off the board early. We know that Jade is coming off the board shortly after that. We know that Will Johnson's gonna be right there in that mix. Like all should be off the board. In the top 15 or so picks. Right. Then we got that second group we talked about. Benjamin Morrison from Notre Dame, Az Thomas from Florida State, who was limited today but looked really good in his drills. We got Rebel from East Carolina, Simone who didn't work out because of the acl. So those are kind of your top six. And now Maxwell Hairston kind of right there. Challenges, starts to challenge. So now we get seven corners. We feel good about Porter for a lot of people wasn't in the mix, but I've got him written down right here, number eight.
- [44:09]
Unknown Speaker
For me, those numbers he's gonna.
- [44:11]
Todd McShay
That's gonna set. So now this cornerback class, because of a couple of these workouts, gets really interesting. And is Porter. Porter's a day two guy. I'm not ready to say he's. He's a round two guy, but he's a day two guy. That's interesting. Quincy Riley ran a 4, 4, 8, right. Great ball skills, confidence when the ball's in the air. He's a really good player out of Louisville. He's in that mix as well. I think those are kind of the nine guys, right?
- [44:39]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [44:40]
Todd McShay
And Hairston and Porter elevated themselves within that nine. Okay. Then after that, we got a whole slew of players who are going to be either late day two, early day three. And Zaf Frazier is one of those guys that I keep hearing from scouts like, watch, he could be. He could. He could come on Friday night, meaning the second day of the draft, meaning somewhere late third round, but maybe it's early fourth. But the bottom line is we've got some more intriguing guys. Let me Give you a few more names that had really good days. Okay. We got Robert longer beam.
- [45:10]
Unknown Speaker
Rutgers.
- [45:12]
Todd McShay
Rutgers. 511, 175 pounds. So. So average height, but lean, average arms. 31 and a half. But he ran a 4:3:9 today and he fly and he had an 11:2 broad jump, the best in the entire class. Okay. And a 36 and a half inch vertical, which I think was tied for like fifth or six or whatever.
- [45:31]
Unknown Speaker
What's a broad jump tell you? Get into that a little bit.
- [45:34]
Todd McShay
Maybe the ability, honestly, lower body strength and explosion. And it's only important because you know that this guy a. It can help for an undersized guy with his tackling ability to vault, be going up contested catches as a. As a lean, slender guy, can he explode up through those sorts of things?
- [45:54]
Unknown Speaker
Right.
- [45:55]
Todd McShay
And typically it leads to good speed. Quite honest.
- [45:58]
Unknown Speaker
Right.
- [45:58]
Todd McShay
I mean, that's the indicator is if you've got a good vertical and. Or broad jump. You know, there's. There's. There's explosion and power in the lower body. Yeah.
- [46:06]
Unknown Speaker
I think it's just good to keep in mind they're. These tests are for specific reasons. They are things that translate to the field.
- [46:13]
Todd McShay
So. So I thought. I thought longer beam had a really good day as a day three prospect Caleb Ransom.
- [46:19]
Unknown Speaker
Big day, Tulane.
- [46:20]
Todd McShay
Yeah, yeah. Really big day.
- [46:23]
Unknown Speaker
The guy didn't put up big numbers. He didn't have a, like, the statistical production wasn't great at Tulane.
- [46:28]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [46:29]
Unknown Speaker
But wow, he showed out today.
- [46:30]
Todd McShay
But. But they may. There are numbers that make you want to go back and be like, all right, I got to. I got to brush up. I got to figure out where, like where this guy belongs. And at a position that is dictated in a lot of circumstances of like, there are cans and cannots. There are guys that can and cannot. And the easiest way to get the exclusion list is to have really bad numbers. Right.
- [46:52]
Unknown Speaker
You know, don't be a cannot.
- [46:55]
Todd McShay
And you can get excluded quickly. And then there are ways to catch eyes and be like, now. Because remember now the NFL coaches, the D, the DB coaches, the coordinators are getting involved and they're like, well, we can work with him. If you've got one thing that we. That we really like, we can work with him. So a Caleb Ranso comes out. Not the greatest tape in the world. Late round prospect we're talking about.
- [47:16]
Unknown Speaker
Right.
- [47:17]
Todd McShay
Well, now he's like, now there's an argument. Okay. Hey, tell my scout to go back and watch. Let's do it. Let's do a cross check. Let's see now with this in mind from a different lens, let's see. He runs a 4, 3, 3. He has a 40 inch vertical jump.
- [47:32]
Unknown Speaker
I think that was tops for the corners.
- [47:34]
Todd McShay
Yeah, I think it might have been.
- [47:35]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [47:36]
Todd McShay
I don't know. Do we have the, the vertical jumps for the, for the cornerbacks? I'm not going to actually. I've got it here. But, but my point being that the ransom was up there when, when you patch together a vertical jump of 40 and a 4, 3, 3. That like 5:11, about 5, 11 and a half, 197 pounds. So like he's tightly packed, well put together and slightly below average to average height for the cornerback position. So there's stuff to work with there.
- [48:07]
Unknown Speaker
Right.
- [48:08]
Todd McShay
Shorter arms though. Last guy. There's no way I was going to get through this, this cornerback podcast without going mentioning my boy from Western Kentucky, Upton Stout. Upton Stout, appropriately named, not really Stout, but like shorter frame. I'm just pulling for this guy. I think he's one of the best pure cover guys in terms of glue. Like hip pocket guy.
- [48:33]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [48:33]
Todd McShay
He's got nothing else to offer measurable wise. 30 inch arms, miserable, pissed about it. 5, 8 and a half. Miserable, pissed about it. Reactions 181, not happy. But then he comes out and like what I see on tape this, these athletic traits. The ability to change direction, the speed to Keep up runs a 4, 4, 4, 37 and a half inch vertical, second best among all the cornerbacks. A 10, 8 broad jump, fourth best among all the cornerbacks. So yeah, I, I might be small. What about it? Like I can, I can run with just about anyone. I, I've got explosion in my lower body. I can turn him. Like, I just, I think Upton Stout is going to be a steal. He's going to watch, you watch that size. He's going to be available in that fourth, fifth round range and everyone's like, yeah, he's going to be like a number five corner and maybe he'll play special team. He's going to wind up being a number three starter in the NFL.
- [49:29]
Unknown Speaker
You hate seeing that arm length and you hate some of those numbers, but there are some smart GMs out there right now who are psyched because they're saying to themselves, good man. I didn't, I knew that he wasn't gonna have great numbers. I didn't even want him to. I just, I want him to fall to us. I know how good he is on tape and if I can get him in the fourth or fifth round, we have an absolute home run. There are guys who are probably pretty happy that he didn't have like a monster workout.
- [49:52]
Todd McShay
Always trade back is following along in the chat. He had a good line. I was gonna ask you guys yesterday if the, the turf was slower this year. Today gave me the answer. Yeah, I mean, the turf isn't slower. It's just a lot of the top guys aren't working out and it's a problem and it's, it's frustrating.
- [50:11]
Unknown Speaker
We're walking this line. I'm not wanting to whine about it, but it's, it's tough.
- [50:14]
Todd McShay
Yeah. I mean, because every single position, every single position there. We talked about all the guys last night. Travis Hunter doesn't work out. Will Johnson doesn't work out. Benjamin Morrison has an injury. Injury. So he gets a pass. Sone Revel gets a pass at the safety position. The top two guys did work out. They did, they did work out. Xavier Watts did not. The, the Notre Dame safety like you. Also, here's the other part. There's a hell of a lot of Notre Dame, Ohio State, Penn State, Texas. Texas dudes, right. Who had to play 15, 16 games this year and their season didn't end like almost a month later, you know, several weeks later than what we're used to seeing.
- [50:54]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. Guys have been dropping 14, 15 pounds, training to run their fastest 40s.
- [50:59]
Todd McShay
So guys who are rewarded for winning are put in this bind of like, well, I didn't have a month, I didn't have two months to go.
- [51:08]
Unknown Speaker
Right.
- [51:08]
Todd McShay
Because a lot of these guys, if you're just going to a bowl game and you're preparing for the NFL draft, you're like, thank you very much. I'm out. Write a letter, sitting on social media. And I'm going, I'm going to Florida, California, Arizona to train with world class trainers.
- [51:21]
Unknown Speaker
World class.
- [51:22]
Todd McShay
So now I've got December, January. Right. And February. Three months.
- [51:31]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [51:31]
Todd McShay
Now these other guys, they won a national championship. They're in the championship game. They're looking at like, by the time the dust settles, it's February 1st. And here we are on, you know, say, March 1st or yesterday. I don't know, who cares? Tomorrow's March 1st. I mean, I don't know what day it is. I, I know it's day two of workouts at the combine and I know we're at an awesome hotel and I'm pumped about it and I love our new set. But yeah, I just, I understand why those guys don't, don't wind up working out. But yeah, every single position. But what's happened is it's created this opportunity. And so now you have the NFL Network. You get the ESPN set, you got, you got our show, you got all. A bunch of other shows. You got all the reporters. You got reporters fighting in Starbucks. You got, you got an average height of 5, 5 foot 8 and a half and like 170 pounds having a shouting match in Starbucks and calling NFL security. You got all these people here giving focus on this event. So like, yeah, yeah.
- [52:32]
Unknown Speaker
You think if you.
- [52:33]
Todd McShay
Do you think if Will Johnson and. And Travis Hunter worked out, do you think if those two guys worked out that we would be focusing this much on. On Maxwell Hairston? He would. You know what I mean?
- [52:46]
Unknown Speaker
Right.
- [52:46]
Todd McShay
So it's a great opportunity. So I love that for these guys. It's good safety position. Again, there were some guys. Xavier Watts, Notre Dame didn't work out. Kevin Winston Jr. The partially torn ACL for Penn State, did not participate. He missed the majority of the season last year.
- [53:01]
Unknown Speaker
I liked his tape last year.
- [53:03]
Todd McShay
Excuse me. A couple other guys though, took advantage. Really took advantage. I was just like, I'm pulling for Upton, Stout and some of the. Darian Porter for different reasons. I'm pulling for Billy Bowman.
- [53:15]
Unknown Speaker
I was hoping you were gonna go with him.
- [53:16]
Todd McShay
I absolutely love Billy Bowman.
- [53:18]
Unknown Speaker
I know it's.
- [53:20]
Todd McShay
It's kind of the same thing with. Is Jade Baron. Not quite to that level is what it is. It's a guy who doesn't have the ideal measurables. Way worse. Not way worse worse than Jade Barron's. Okay. But his tape, you can see it talking to people inside that Oklahoma program about how he has a color coded notepad. Notepad that he walks around with that he's like, he's obsessive with preparation, the detail, attention to detail. Like these are things that translate and we see it all the time. That's why you got to get to know the person and what drives them. And it's what like talking to so many different coaches, I think it was Jason Garrett had the great line. Like the hardest part is trying to find. Find players who like need and love football, but also are coachable. Right. Like need absolutely need it and love it, but they. But when you need it and love it, unfortunately, sometimes it's because of circumstances, because life was hard. And so for, you know, and so there's this like delicate balance. This dude just needs and loves football for. For his own personal reasons. You see it on the tape. And so when he comes out at 5, 9 and 78 inches, just under 510 which is not a good height. And 192 pounds. He's well packed but it's just not not the frame you're looking for in your NFL safety these days. You want Nick Eamon worry, even worry. Or worst case I'll take Malachi starks. You know 6, 197 pounds and his the arm length, man, it's killing me.
- [54:48]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [54:49]
Todd McShay
Two of my favorite players in this draft have sub 29 inch arm length.
- [54:53]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [54:53]
Todd McShay
With Jade Baron.
- [54:56]
Unknown Speaker
Sub 29.
- [54:57]
Todd McShay
Sorry sub 30.
- [54:58]
Unknown Speaker
Yes.
- [54:58]
Todd McShay
Jade Baron was 29 and change. Bowman was 28 and a half. But then he works out and he has a really good day. Yeah, his I thought his on field workouts were awesome. He was great with the ball skills. Going through the gauntlet I saw great quickness catching the ball and for him I was worried he's also going to match the, the shorter arms and the lack of height with, with speed. That was just pedestrian. He ran a 44240. I thought that was awesome.
- [55:26]
Unknown Speaker
Since the the season has ended, if you were to talk about the names you've heard the most, I think it's Bowman. You know, in a runaway if you were in Mobile, Alabama and you're just walking around, you're hearing people whispering about Bowman. I don't think people like he's not going to test well. I don't think people realize how good this player is. When you go and watch them on tape. This guy's a dog. He is such a good football player. It's over and over and over again in conversations I hear that kid's name come up.
- [55:52]
Todd McShay
Who else stood up for you? The safeties.
- [55:54]
Unknown Speaker
Jonas Sanker from Virginia. I mean he's all ACC the last two years. He has over 200 tackles the last two years. Six foot three, 206, 32 and a quarter inch arms, big frame. This guy, he wants to come up and hit you in the mouth. He is a physical run defender. The concern I had was how well can he hold up in coverage. Well, he ran a 448 today. That makes me feel a lot better about that situation. He had a 36 and a half inch vertical, a ten foot eight broad. He had an outstanding day. In terms of the testing I thought it was a loose little inconsistent on the, on the field but not bad. Overall I thought it was good. You're looking at a mid round safety there that I think can come in and be a number three guy for you and maybe develop into a starter.
- [56:37]
Todd McShay
Yeah, I thought There were a handful of guys that really had good days.
- [56:40]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [56:40]
Todd McShay
Like, and they're all probably, I don't know, mid round. Let's call them mid round because it could be third, late third, it could be fourth, it could be fifth, sixth. But like Marquis Siegel from Kansas State, 5 11, almost a half, almost 200 pounds, a little shorter arms, 30 and three quarters. But he ran the fastest 40 of any cornerback. Sorry, any safety here. 437. Had the fourth best vertical jump for 38. Look good in his movement skills. I don't know.
- [57:14]
Unknown Speaker
North Dakota State transfer. So you know he's tough.
- [57:16]
Todd McShay
Yeah, there you go. And Kansas State, he's probably tough too.
- [57:20]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, you know, those are good programs, man.
- [57:22]
Todd McShay
So some of these guys, we know exactly who they are and we want some measurables that are going to match up. Like I've got to go back and watch a lot more. Like I, I, I breeze. Like we call it, we call it newsreel. I'm like, I'm newsreeling. A lot of these guys, like 100 of these guys compared to the first 150, 200 guys that I know. Seagull. I've got to go do more tape on. I'm excited now to see because there's like, now there's some something behind it. R.J. mickens, Clemson. Really good day. Six foot 199 pounds, 32 and a half inch arms. He had the second best vertical jump, 41 and a half inch vertical.
- [57:57]
Unknown Speaker
That's okay.
- [57:58]
Todd McShay
Ran a four, four nine. I thought he was really good in the gauntlet drill catching the ball. So he's another player from Clemson that helped himself. Andrew Makuba.
- [58:05]
Unknown Speaker
I should have Drew running mate.
- [58:06]
Todd McShay
Drew Mc. Yes. Yeah, they played together. Great call. Drew McCuba had a good day. I just like him. He plays his ass off. He's instinctive, he's physical. He ran a 4, 4, 5. Didn't do anything else but to run a 4, 4 5. That's a good number.
- [58:19]
Unknown Speaker
Especially because he's a little undersized. But again, a player on tip. When you watch him on tape, he's tough. He will come up and hit you.
- [58:25]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [58:26]
Unknown Speaker
Smart. Plays the ball well. He had a, I forget four or five interceptions this year.
- [58:31]
Todd McShay
Trying to get my face idea. I got to figure out these. Go ahead. Have fun with that. I'm looking down at you in the live chat. I see you. Yeah. Last night he was making fun of me because I didn't know how to get into my cell phone and I did my alarm Go off tonight. It's a face id, but I'm trying to get these updated tight end workouts because they were still working out when we came on.
- [58:49]
Unknown Speaker
Right.
- [58:49]
Todd McShay
But I do want to mention one last safety.
- [58:51]
Unknown Speaker
Okay.
- [58:53]
Todd McShay
Katan Crawford. Five, one five, ten and a half, 202 pounds. Right. And. And you look at him. Let me just pull. Yeah, the Nevada safety. Yeah. 31 inch arms. I wanted to double check. 31 one inch arms. So right around average. Okay. So size like a little shorter than ideal, but tightly packed. Okay. Arms. Listen to these numbers across the board. Sawed off explosive traits. Liked how he moved in his, in his, in his. Worker in his workouts. I had to go back and look at my notes. Not a great tackler, but really good in coverage. Really good in the slot. And coverage broke out this past year. You told me I didn't even. I just on the tape, I hadn't done the background. You can get to his background in a second. But listen to these numbers for Crawford. Third fastest 40 yard dash among all the safeties. 4, 4, 1. Second best vertical jump, 41 and a half. And then a third best broad jump, 10, 8. It's pretty good. Man. That makes that. That's like again, GMs like, hey, let's go back, let's do more work on this guy. What do we have?
- [59:58]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, so he's a Texas transfer. He was there for four years. Special team standout. It's like six degrees of Kevin Bacon right now. I mean, you got guys going from, you got Makuba going from Clemson to Texas. So all of a sudden you got Crawford going from Texas to Nevada. But he gets on the field and he makes the most of it. He has a, he has a breakout year. And what I like about him, again, this stuff, when you're getting into these guys, who are these middle round guys we're talking about third or fifth? Crawford was a special team stand out of Texas. You know, you're getting a special teams player. We're looking at a player now that, man, this guy's got some tools.
- [60:29]
Todd McShay
Yes.
- [60:29]
Unknown Speaker
And if we give him a little time, he's going to develop. And not only can we, we can afford to give him some time because I know he's going to go out and he's going to run downfield and make plays on special teams.
- [60:40]
Todd McShay
Yeah, I just thought it was a fun group. Overall, I think the safeties did better than expected. I think the cornerbacks that did work out had great nights. And I think when anytime you have a hairston and Iman Wara put on the shows that they put on and that even wore a workout was legendary. Absolutely legendary. But now for the stinks and it sucks and it stinks and it sucks portion of the show. The tight ends, man. Like, I get it. Colston loved one. You get a pass. Shoulder surgery in January. Like, of course. Elijah Arroyo competed. Competed. The Miami tight end. Competed in the Senior Bowl. Got a little nick, nothing major. Playing it safe pass. March 24th. We'll see you in Miami. I think we should talk to Spotify in the ringer, man. I'm kind of feeling like a cam. I'm getting a little. I used to. I used to do like 5, 6 pro days a year. And I would always love, like, oh, we got a USC quarterback. That's too bad. I'll be out there five days. You know, we got. I don't. I can't remember a Miami quarter quarterback. I don't think we've had a Miami quarterback in my pro day circuit.
- [61:47]
Unknown Speaker
No.
- [61:48]
Todd McShay
I mean, south beach wouldn't be bad for March 20th. My birthday. 22nd.
- [61:54]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [61:55]
Todd McShay
My birthday is the 22nd. We go celebrate. All right. Anyway, Tyler Warren doesn't work out. Own choice again late in the season. Got it. And doesn't need to. I. I got that too. But you get excited about this group because we're talking about Warren and Loveland being the highest two drafted tight ends dating back to, like, the 80s run. Right. We're talking about Mason Taylor, who was expected to work out. I'm shocked by this because what did I say about Mason Taylor? You know exactly what you're getting tonight. We did not know what we were getting.
- [62:26]
Unknown Speaker
He's supposed to run well.
- [62:28]
Todd McShay
He was supposed. Yeah, he's supposed to run well. Yeah, he showed. I should mention, though, like, there's some really encouraging measurables. Like, he was over 6 foot 5, 251 pounds. Colston Loveland. Talk about his sizes. Kind of an angular guy. Like, literally 6005. 6. I knew he was tall. I didn't quite know he was that tall. He's almost six six, £248. Add some bulk. Yeah. Good number for him. Tyler Warren, as. As expected. Six, five and a half. But I didn't think Loveland was taller than Warren. Yeah. Or whatever. It matters, but 256. So, like, there's excitement building and these guys are working out before any of the other offensive positions.
- [63:01]
Unknown Speaker
Like.
- [63:01]
Todd McShay
All right, we get the tight ends on. On Friday night. Let's go. I booked a room down here for it. Sit and watch. We've got a fireplace in the back. We got all our best friends. Let's watch the tight ends. Workout. Nope. So no workout from Warren. No workout from Love. I'm going to be two top 15 picks. Could be top 10 picks. I'm not joking. No workout from Mason Taylor. No workout from Elijah Arroyo. And then I, I come back in the room, mentioned the first run that I see is a 40 yard dash for Gunner. Helmet. I got. I love you, Gunner. I absolutely love you as a player. I was, I feel like I was the first guy on him. I started sending out texts like in September. I was like, this guy can play. I don't care what he runs. I don't care what his measurables are. But then we saw him. I mean we're going for the laugh here. This is not an indictment on Gunner Helm. He's a great football player.
- [63:49]
Unknown Speaker
Much better second rep than the first one.
- [63:51]
Todd McShay
Well, the first rep he went. He jumped out of the gate and. And they. And they whistled him. Who's our guy? The starter from Pittsburgh, Mark Gorzak. Legend. One of my favorites in the world. Like he literally has got me through some dark Indianapolis days. Just, just his communication. How like the passion that he has for what he's doing and trying to help out all the, all the young men as they try to get the best number they can on the 40. But he, but Mark blows the whistle, you know, brings him back. He got two steps out and that third step, I literally thought we saw like an ac, some kind of terror.
- [64:28]
Unknown Speaker
It was very awkward.
- [64:29]
Todd McShay
You said it looked like.
- [64:31]
Unknown Speaker
I said it looked like a horse broke its leg.
- [64:33]
Todd McShay
Like we were going to take him out and shoot him. Like there was this one. If you go back and watch.
- [64:37]
Unknown Speaker
I did not think this was for.
- [64:38]
Todd McShay
It was totally fine. If you say it to me, you know it is. But let's pull up the.
- [64:44]
Unknown Speaker
I love Gunner. Hell, by the way. Love his tape.
- [64:47]
Todd McShay
I swear to you, I. And I love Gunner Helm. And I think he's going to still wind up being a third round pick and going to wind up being a steal.
- [64:54]
Unknown Speaker
A Texas player. Who One of those guys who had a condensed schedule too. Worth worth mentioning.
- [64:58]
Todd McShay
No question. Helm's our guy. It's just tonight we got. It's like any of your good friends, you get to needle him a little bit. Well, we're not good friends with them. We're going to needle him anyway. But we do like him as a prospect. He wound up with a 4, 8, 4, which wasn't horrible. Compared to some of these other tight ends. But it's not good.
- [65:14]
Unknown Speaker
The first weapons rest first rep was 493 or something like that.
- [65:17]
Todd McShay
It was a 493 was his first rep. Exactly.
- [65:20]
Unknown Speaker
Doesn't reflect what you see on tape.
- [65:21]
Todd McShay
And he almost broke his hoof. But it's not a good workout man. So what my point is we're not like these. I'm listing off my top tight ends. Warren not working out. Loveland not working out. Taylor not working out. Arroyo not working out. Gunner Helm. Let's see what he's got. Runs a four eight four was his best and he had a 30 inch vertical. I think it was the. Yeah, that was the worst of the all the tight ends. So like that's concerning. Right behind him you've got Harold Fannin Jr. So now that's opened up the little disappointing there. Not great. But it wasn't like listen bud, these times aren't that great and I'm not going to bore everyone but I'm seeing a lot of four sevens and four eights. There's only one four, six four. There's a four six three and a four six, five. You're not going to be necessarily blown away by the by who the 463 was but I, I'll give you the 465 in a minute. And it was very surprising to me. I didn't know we we had this kind of ability. Terence Ferguson. So Harold Fannin and Ferguson and Helm are all kind of in a cluster. We talk about like these buckets, clusters, tears, whatever you want to say, they're in that day two somewhere between pick 60 and 100. Okay. And Helm heard his cause. Well just call it what it is. When you're 65 and you're 241 pounds you can't run a 484 and have a 30 inch vertical and it not affect correct what you know what it is. We didn't think he was going to run great. We didn't think he was going to jump great. But that's a little bit concerning when you talk about traits. Opens the door for Fannin. Opens the door for Ferguson. Fannin runs a four seven two I believe was the. Yeah. No 471 was the official. Had a 34 inch vertical which is pretty good compared to this group but not like earth shattering intent. 9:10 broad. I really like his tape but. But I actually got done watching Warren, Loveland, Taylor and Arroyo and I popped in his tape next and there's just a clear difference. Yeah but I really like his tape. He's going to be a really good pass catching tight end. And he blocks. Okay, but the player who helped himself the most at tight end and we'll get out of here and before we get you to the Tyler, I might.
- [67:28]
Unknown Speaker
Have another guy, but go ahead.
- [67:30]
Todd McShay
The player who helped himself the most. And then there's. There is a, there is a sleeper here, Terrence Ferguson, who we said at the Senior bowl like just love this guy. Don't know how well he's going to run, but he just, he does the simple things. He makes them look easy. Makes the easy things look easy. Makes it like the somewhat complicated things look pretty easy too. Finding soft spots in zone, getting open. Just finding windows for his quarterback catches everything. He ran a 4, 6, 3 today, fastest of all the tight ends, man. He had a 39 inch vertical. So now you're stacking traits, similar body types. They're basically identical. One 6, 5 in Helm, the other 6, 5, 3. Ferguson a little taller. Ferguson 6, 6 pounds heavier. Ferguson's slightly longer arms but he puts out a 4, 6, 3 and a 39 inch vertical compared to Helm with the 4, 8, 4 and the 30 inch vertical. 39 versus 30, we're talking almost 10 inches. Yeah, there's a difference in physical traits there. Ferguson coming up the board. Yeah, truly. And, and also a 102 broad which was third best. So his, those three results, he was in the top three and he was third in broad jump and best in the vertical and the 40. Who else you got, man?
- [68:45]
Unknown Speaker
Keep an eye on my guy. Jalen Conyers from Texas Tech.
- [68:49]
Todd McShay
Okay.
- [68:49]
Unknown Speaker
260 pounds. 260 pounds. And he ran a 4, 74 with a 35 and a half inch vertical and a 101 broad. He's a guy the flashes on tape, his ability to produce after the catch. I'm telling you, he's a guy that, that's one of those guys that's going to be another mid round player who is one of my favorite sleepers in this draft.
- [69:09]
Todd McShay
It's, it's March 1st tomorrow. I was just, I was just informed by, by Tucker, our wonderful producer. And I'm perfectly fine with admitting I have not watched Joshua Simon's tape yet.
- [69:24]
Unknown Speaker
No.
- [69:25]
Todd McShay
Okay. I have not. But I'm gonna go back and watch it. I'm not racing back to watch it. Like I'm, like I told you some of the guys in the interior defensive line and the edges yesterday. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna get back and I'm gonna Watch Simon in the next week because the South Carolina tight end that I just didn't know a ton about and was probably one of the final 15, 20, 30 players of the 333, I think combine invites. Let's say he was one of the 50 that I didn't know if he was going to be here or expect to be here. He checked in at 641. He's only 239. 239 pounds. So he's undersized. But he's got long arms, almost 34 inches. Big hands, over 10 inch hands. He had the second fastest 40 yard dash among all the tight ends with 465. Second second best broad jump, second best vertical jump.
- [70:15]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, he flashes on tape. He shows up on tape too.
- [70:18]
Todd McShay
Tell me about him.
- [70:19]
Unknown Speaker
He's just, he's a. Listen, he's 239 pounds. He's a better receiver, but he's guys. He's a guy who's on tape, has the speed to make plays down the seam, find the pockets and cover two looks. He's. He's a good player.
- [70:35]
Todd McShay
Wasn't Makuba a corner Frank. Frank Tursik was asking at Clemson. No, he was a safety. Shop key said he didn't call security. I'm not sure what that mean. Means and then he's talking about a bracelet.
- [70:49]
Unknown Speaker
He stand up for his boy Rapaport. He didn't call security.
- [70:52]
Todd McShay
Oh, oh, that's right. He erroneous. Erroneous. Shop key. You're all over it tonight. I like you, man.
- [70:58]
Unknown Speaker
Stand up for his guy.
- [71:00]
Todd McShay
Yes, yes. And then he wrote the barista did. Okay, Shop key. Breaking news here. We have to.
- [71:09]
Unknown Speaker
Do we have to issue an official retraction or what? How's that work?
- [71:13]
Todd McShay
Yeah, I mean we're talking about ludicrous stuff here. Absolutely ludicrous. We appreciate we had almost 500 messages or. No, these are the top messages. So I don't even know how that works. Terry McGovern doesn't like Gunner Helms tape Helm getting outrun by Jordan Davis is rough. Always trade back. All right. We appreciate you being here, man. We really do. I love Ladies and gentlemen who have joined our our chat and have watched us on YouTube. Please hit the subscribe button if you're watching. Like we, we appreciate it. We're trying to build this thing up. Is a big week for us. Please like tell friends, pass the word on, anything you can do to help. We appreciate it. I. I don't want to oversell it and disappoint people. I'm just telling you, if you like football, honest to God, if you just are interested in like interesting people and you want to see a great hear about a great story and someone who's trying to like, prove to the world that he belongs here, please check out this interview. Okay, if you're watching on YouTube right now, just go to the homepage. When the show's over, it's going to be over for you. If we watching live, we appreciate it. Just go to the homepage. It's up now. It went up at 9:00 Eastern Time. It's 9:12 Eastern Time right now. Please go check it out. Anyone else? Spotify? Anyone else? YouTube? If you're anywhere else, you get your podcasts. Just second we say goodbye. This live show will turn into the our interview from earlier today. It's not like a week ago. This was this morning. Tyler Schuck took time out of his schedule, came over and wanted to talk to us and I. We can't tell them how much we appreciate it because it was fascinating and I hope you enjoy it as much as we did. But again, thank you all for being here. Today was day two of the workouts tomorrow. I mean, massive.
- [73:02]
Unknown Speaker
Is it a big day?
- [73:03]
Todd McShay
Massive. Quarterbacks, wide receivers, right? Yeah, Running backs. And it's the first time in a long time that the running back class is going to outshine these quarterbacks. But I can't wait to watch Tyler Schuck throw. I can't wait to watch Jackson dart throw. I can't wait to see some of these wide receivers that wind up actually working out. We're going to see some big numbers. I'm hearing big. Jaylen Noel. I like my small guys this year, man. I'm just pulling for the underdog. There's a lot of really interesting players. We're going to be back here tomorrow night. Is it 8:00, folks? Are we doing 8, 8:00pm Eastern? 8:00pm Eastern. Right back in the studio, which is in the hotel, which means we can go out and get some something to eat because I'm hungry.
- [73:41]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [73:41]
Todd McShay
But here we go. Tyler Shuck interview is coming up right now. We appreciate it. We'll see you tomorrow, 8pm on Saturday. After the biggest day of workouts here in the 2025 NFL combine, we're joined by Louisville quarterback Tyler Schuck. And Tyler, I was just telling you we don't do player interviews typically. Like, you're literally the first player that, that we've had on and wanted to talk to. And I wanted to talk to you specifically, because I just appreciate your. Your story and what you've been through to get here. Like, for those who aren't familiar, this guy started at Oregon, my favorite nugget in the entire draft. He's a backup quarterback to Justin Herbert. Right. And we think about Herbert and where he is, and I'm sure you're so sick and tired of hearing this conversation, but. But, like, what he's been through as a pro already, and now you're getting your opportunity, your moments here. You had three years at Oregon, three years at Texas Tech. You finally have a healthy. It all clicks. Like, you finally have that full season you were looking for at Louisville. And I'm just curious if you can kind of take a minute and think back, like, everything you've been through. Not to start on a negative note, but, like, what was the lowest point that you dealt with in all?
- [74:55]
Unknown Speaker
Man, I think you go to Texas Tech and, you know, you're getting carted off the field thinking, one, am I ever going to play again? Or. And two, am I ever going to walk again? Because I'm. I'm like, I can't even. My legs hanging on by a thread right now.
- [75:09]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [75:10]
Unknown Speaker
And, you know, I broke my fibula, but, you know, obviously it was fine. It was just a broken bone. But I'm like, man, this. This sucks after, you know, obviously having a broken bone before that. But I think for me, it's kind of gave me this perspective. And like you said at Louisville, it's allowed me to play free. You know, I've been a part of five different offensive coordinators. I've backed up Justin Herbert. I played. I started Covid year. You know, I didn't get injured then, but it was Covid. So it was. It was only six, seven games. Kind of going through there, being a young, immature kid at 21, 22 years old. And, like, a lot of guys are coming into this process. Like, man, I'm. You know, I'm. I'm the best player. I'm ready to go out here. And it's like, dude, what I thought I knew then was, like, it's crazy. And I'm 25 and I. I still don't know crap. It's like, right? I still got a lot to learn, but I know for sure that I wouldn't be who I am without going through those experiences, you know, getting injured and just explaining to these teams what's. Man, I had a broken collarbone and a broken fibula. Like, I didn't have any knee issues or Shoulder or back or, you know, it's like I put a plate on it and I'm good. You know, I was running quarterback counter empowered, you know, the week six weeks after I broke my collarbone. And it's like, you know, I think once the team's understood. Understand that and they kind of see, you know, just what I've been through, it's like, okay, that makes sense. And now let's watch the tape and, you know, hopefully they're liking what they see, and I'm excited to kind of show what I can do here.
- [76:24]
Todd McShay
So you go through the three injuries, right? And. And then you. You finally get your year. Was there a moment this past season when you're like, like, thank you, Lord. You know, it's all clicking. Was there. Can you think, think of one moment, like, all right, it's happening now?
- [76:41]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. I mean, first of all, I mean, it was for me. I only really think of it as two. It's just a timeline. Sucks because I broke my collarbone in 21, but I didn't get surgery on it. And the first time I get hit again. Really, because we don't practice quarterbacks. You don't get hit because I didn't get plated. I got. I broke it again.
- [76:56]
Todd McShay
2.
- [76:57]
Unknown Speaker
Dude jumped on my back and I broke it. And once I got it plated, it was fine. So. Well, I tell them that, they're like, oh, shit. And it's like, I. Makes sense. And then the fib, like, to your. To what you said. I think where it kind of hit me is running out of the tunnel at Louisville, like I said, where I'm like, I don't. I don't know. Like, obviously I have the passion. I got an itch. You know, I had a chip on my shoulder to go out there and prove what I can do. And as a young player, it's easy to compare yourself to others. Guys in my class like Trevor Lawrence and Justin Fields and Brock Purdy and even guys after that, they were in your high school.
- [77:29]
Todd McShay
Like, I don't think people realize Trevor Lawrence has been. He's like, it feels like a 10 year NFL veteran. He was in your high school recruiting class, right?
- [77:38]
Unknown Speaker
No. Yeah. I knew him well throughout the Elite 11 process. And it was just like, man, like, you know, I'm better than these guys now. Why can't I have that opportunity? It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You got to go through this process. And you see, you know, everybody goes through their own circumstance. Brock Purdy had to go through his own thing to get to where he's at. Even Trevor Lawrence, he's. He had an illustrious college career and he's facing a version in the NFL. And I feel more than anything, really mentally equipped and physically prepared to go into the NFL at this point. Like I said, where I wouldn't have been earlier on in my career where you, you think you're entitled to something or you think you're ready and you know, I had to play in that profile system where there's a lot on my plate, you know, controlling the run game, getting, you know, having four or five different plays of the line scrimmage, getting the different passes, controlling the protection and it's like you're dropping back, taking a three step drop and you know, reading the deep choice route, hoping it gets open. It's like, oh, he's got a crazy arm. It's like you're playing robotics, you know, in previous offenses and it's like that's not football, you know, and that's not playing quarterback to me and I still have to get better at all that. So I think more than anything, like I said, I had to cultivate that grit and just I wanted an opportunity and you know, luckily I able to get it.
- [78:47]
Jeff and Brian Braum are obviously highly respected for their ability to develop quarterbacks. Can you talk about the impact they've had on you?
- [78:53]
I mean, really pivotal, honestly. I mean they both played the position, you know, so they, they've been behind the face mask and understanding, you know, they coached me from the perspective of like I would have done this or I would have made this throw or I don't think you could have made that. You're good. So it's like, it's different in the past where it's like, you know, why the f. Didn't you pull the trigger here? When are you doing? And it's like, you know, they, you know, coach Braum is, or Jeff Braum is obviously very passionate and fiery and then Brian's kind of the, the, the counter to that is he's very, you know, analytical. He explains well, but I think you need both, right?
- [79:26]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [79:26]
Unknown Speaker
So I, it was great for me kind of having that balance of him in the ear, the earpiece and, and going through those plays and then. But just understanding and it gave me the confidence to go out there and they let me play free and d who I am.
- [79:38]
It's great.
- [79:39]
Todd McShay
Do you, do you talk to Justin Herbert at all still?
- [79:41]
Unknown Speaker
Not recently. We've obviously been pretty busy with our own journeys, but I did whenever he was when he first got to the league, whenever I was first transferring, we talked about, you know, even recently, kind of Senior bowl stuff. But I asked him, you know, even when he came into the league, because we played in the same offense for two years, obviously, I remember one thing that stuck out. He was like, man, the NFL is like, people make it more than it seems. It's like you. You obviously. They're obviously better players. But what you see in college and, you know, the coaching stat, the coaching level, like, everything's going to marry up for you and you can go do your job and you have the talent, then it'll. It'll. It'll click for you and don't make it more than what it is. You know, everybody's good. You know, obviously, I think he said the biggest difference is the pass rush, but the coverage is, you know, you're going to see it. They obviously doing a good job of disguising and everything. He kind of, you know, gave some of that mental ease as far as, you know, college people are playing all different kinds of stuff. Maybe you don't have. You don't know what this guy's going to do. And so I think there's a lot more. I think he was just kind of relaying the consistency. Yeah. So that gave me a lot of confidence at least two, three years ago. But, you know, at least now you had to kind of learn those lessons.
- [80:52]
Todd McShay
Yourself and continue on the fear of the unknown.
- [80:55]
Unknown Speaker
Right.
- [80:55]
Todd McShay
Like, yeah, thinking it's just a different game, it's a different world. Can I. Can I do that until you're there? You don't fully know it, but to have someone that can give that advice is certainly helpful. I always ask this of quarterbacks in, honestly, any position, and I used to just ask, who do you study in the league? And. And the answer, obviously be like, the top player, top three player. What do you gain when you sit down and study certain players? Are there certain things that you look for that you can. That's like teaching points for you?
- [81:27]
Unknown Speaker
No, I mean, that's a good question, I think, because like you said, it's easy to be like, oh, I watch Josh Allen. And it's like, well, you can't really coach what he's hurdling or trucking to the player. And it's like, that's. You got to have your dog, that dog in you. Which I think I do. But I'm like, I don't know if I'm gonna try and do that in the NFL or something, but it's I think more than anything, you know, I watch their footwork. You know, what is their stance like in the shotgun? How do they position themselves under center to where they're not getting stepped on? When the guards pulling, you know, how are they. What's the release point? You know, how are they stepping whenever this guy is coming? So more than anything, I think it's the footwork, you know, how are they calm in the pocket? You know what? Okay, maybe they had a negative play. They were rushed here. They saw this guy moving this way. And then obviously, the really good plays is the anticipation, patience. So I think it's kind of shifted in my career as far as even watching Justin Herbert's like, man, I don't. I don't know if I would have made that. That dig throw. That. That was pretty nice. Yeah, I don't know if I could do that or. It's like seeing. It's like, that was pretty sweet. And then kind of shifting him, like, man, I would have freaking ripped that. Like, I can make that throw. I can. I feel like I'm better than all those guys now. And it's like, put me. You know, at the time, I was like, I don't know if I'd win this competition, but I've had to compete, compete every point in my career with new coaches, and it's like, put me against anybody. I'm going to go compete. And whether it's, you know, going to a team like the Bills or, you know, the Ravens, I'm not going to start. You know, you got Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, but I'm going to. I feel like I'm going to elevate the room and, you know, add value and be one of the guys and kind of commit myself to them, but still kind of push them and be ready. And if I go to a team that, you know, has a competition, you know, I'm going to go out there and do my best to win it, because I feel like I'm the most ready to play.
- [83:06]
Todd McShay
My guess is you've. And you've kind of alluded to it, but you. You've kind of over your struggles and your setbacks, learned the importance of taking advantage of opportunities and appreciating everything. I re. I think back to Justin Herbert's year, right? That year we had Joe Burrow and Tuatanga Violoa, and they didn't come. Come here, and they work out at the combine. They didn't throw. Not the end all, be all. We've had plenty of guys who didn't Throw. Who've gone on to have great careers that were drafted really high. And Burrow was a good example that year. However, I do remember what it did for Justin. Herbert being on that field and everyone complaining and bitching and moaning about, oh, well, two is not throwing and Burrow's not throwing. What are we. And Herbert went out and had an unbelievable day.
- [83:52]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [83:53]
Todd McShay
It doesn't change the evaluation. Doesn't mean he's going to get drafted earlier or later. But there's something to, hey, Justin was here. He's unbelievably talented. He competed kind of similar to what the opportunity that you have on Saturday here, right?
- [84:08]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [84:08]
Todd McShay
Top two quarterbacks, Cam Ward, Chador, Sanders, in a lot of people's minds and certainly in the media. Okay, not going to throw. You get an opportunity to throw. What's your mindset going into?
- [84:18]
Unknown Speaker
Into this, man? I think you got to go compete. To compete. That was my. I think you got to play football. To play football. That was my mindset. It was like, oh, are you. You might as well. You know, a lot of guys, scouts, you know, tell me, you know, you're not going to go to the Senior Bowl. You're not going to get drafted. You might as well leave. It's like, screw that, man. Like, I know if I go play, I can play and I want to go show that. And it's like, why wouldn't. You're here at the NFL Combine, you know, I want to go compete. You know, this is like a dream of everybody's here and let's just go have fun, man. Like you. Obviously, it's not going to go perfect. I'm going to throw it. Maybe not in the right spot. I think that might be every throw. It's like, I wish I would have been more here, but it's like, this is fun, man. Like, this is all a great opportunity and I think I want to go showcase what I can do and throw. And it's. I think for me it's just really exciting. And to what you said, you know, obviously every situation is different. I think you see a guy like Justin and. And what he did. And I was talking to Chad Pennington earlier. He's been one of our. Our legends guys and he's helped out each position group and he was. He's made a comment with Herbert. He was like, man, he kind of came out there a little bit nervous at first and he was like, dude, he's like, don't just come out here and rip it, man. You got. You got the best arm. And I think you saw, even throughout the workout, he got continually better. And, and, and obviously when, when he, when Justin plays free, you know, he can, he can rip it. And I think the same for me, like, I had to gain that perspective of. This is all a bonus, man. This was, this was not in the cards for me.
- [85:40]
Todd McShay
Right.
- [85:40]
Unknown Speaker
And I. That's been the biggest thing. I'm not entitled to anything. Nobody is here. You have to earn it. And I'm gonna go earn it. And if it doesn't work out, great. Because it wasn't supposed to work out. Yeah, if it does work out, that's awesome because, like, I know I can do it. But I mean, that's been the biggest thing for me.
- [85:58]
So regardless of school or coordinators, did you have a favorite play call in college? And when. Just really quickly, when you get the offense set, was there maybe like a safety alignment or something that you saw.
- [86:10]
Todd McShay
You like, got him?
- [86:11]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, this. This is going to be a home run.
- [86:14]
Yeah. I mean, that's funny. You said that the play was called home run. Okay. Yeah. So we got, you know, double straddle, triple right five, 5:33 right W home run. So we got to, you know. Say that again.
- [86:24]
Yeah, one more time.
- [86:25]
Double sturd and triple right 5:30 to the right W home run. So we got a, you know, a bench route by the X. You got a home run by the W or F, which is the adjuster. And he's basically kind of inside stem. He's attacking the middle post safety. He's got a. He's got a home run post or a corner. And you got a deep end cut on that there. So you're pulling the guard, you're latching on by the tight end. You're trying to hold that in. You're shifting the pocket. So you're getting a really big, you know, kind of Aaron Rodgers pull setup. Throw the ball deep down the field. So if you see that boundary safety kind of latching on, or at least in three week or maybe in quarters and he attaches that bench route and you got it over the top, licking your chops, man. And yeah, and say he sloshes off or the safety latches onto, then you got the. The in cutting behind it. So I mean, that was a. That was. This is Coach Brahms offense here at Louisville. So I love that. The fact that he wanted to be aggressive and I think for me, more than anything, I had to be more aware of my check down. And I didn't think I took a lot of sacks this Year just kind of because of the fact that, you know, obviously we didn't have a lot of quarterback runs, but I was more aware of that. And we could call more shots because we're not taking as much negative plays.
- [87:28]
Todd McShay
Just listening to you rip off that play call it. It struck me the verbiage differences. Were there major verbiage differences from, from.
- [87:36]
Unknown Speaker
Or.
- [87:37]
Todd McShay
I mean, I know it was a leading question from what you were doing and how much does that now prepare you as you sit in these meetings? But then I felt teams and coaches and coordinators, like, how much do you ever think back? Like, yeah, this was like these horrible moments.
- [87:51]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [87:51]
Todd McShay
These things that were like, I can't believe that. Why is this happening to me? Yeah, like maybe. Maybe it was all in the plan. And it was because now all of a sudden you're going in and you can rip off that play call and I'm answering it for you, but take it wherever you want. You can rip off that play call with like, it's. It's like ordering lunch for you. Right. And. And that wouldn't have been the case had everything gone perfectly and you would spend, you know, two backed up Justin Herbert, two great years @ Oregon. Now I go out early for the NFL draft. Maybe you would have come in the league and you wouldn't have been ready like this.
- [88:24]
Unknown Speaker
No. 100%. I mean, you're exactly right. I would not have been ready. I. 22, 21, 20 years old. No way. You know, I'm at Oregon. You got like dual left, you know, RIP slice.
- [88:36]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [88:37]
Unknown Speaker
Texas Tech Ace, 95, 90 switch, which a lot of guys know in the areas. It's like, oh, early 95 and it's.
- [88:43]
Todd McShay
Like Rennesaura, Louisville, we got white cross.
- [88:46]
Unknown Speaker
And then you got reduced to weak slot left, xmo bolt 39 right, x bomb Z over. And that was just one play. And then we could can it to a run if they got something like that. So it was. We had multiple can systems to start, and then we got into kind of an open OBR or best run systems where they're. We're basically getting in a formation and, you know, they're telling me to run it. And whether it's a KC or they're over underfront or they're rotating the weak safety down, then I'm going to get to zone or G scheme or counter or power away. And I took a lot of pride and had a lot of fun with that. And I wouldn't have been able to do this if I hadn't Got injured because when I got injured, I took more of the coaching side of the perspective because I had to find a way to add value to the room. I'm not playing. So, you know, I had, I earned the right with Coach Keatley, who's been one, probably one of the biggest people in my career, to kind of give me that confidence. Gave me the keys to the car. So I'm in there with coach Kately, game planning, seeing what we can do. And, and once I got to Louisville, you know, we had the cans, but we didn't have like a check system. And I, I came in just kind of doing it. They're like, why'd you do that? They're like, that was great. I was like, because you called about play. I was like, it wasn't a bad play, it wasn't going to work, so let's get to a better play. And you know, obviously I'm joking, but that's how those conversations went. And then throughout the season at Louisville, I was game planning on Monday or now Tuesday for the NFL. So I'm in there with the coaches, bringing my play ideas and listening to them talk more than anything about what we like. So say the wide receiver coach, he's like, man, if we could check to this play when they bring six, two, double dog. You know, we have that against Georgia Tech where they, we're in the high red zone, they're bringing cover zero. Hey, let's get to a check. I check it real quick without them changing it, we get a touchdown. It's like to me, that's more fun than just taking a three step drop and chucking a go. And everyone's like, oh, that's your, that's what you're supposed to do, you know, Right. But yeah, sorry, that was long winded.
- [90:37]
Todd McShay
No, no, that's great.
- [90:38]
Unknown Speaker
That goes into kind of the thought process and that career, but getting to that point.
- [90:42]
So I'm one of these NFL teams that's interviewing during this process and I say to you, which one of your teammates should I draft? Which one of your teammates would you, would you recommend as a player that I need to bring into my locker room?
- [90:55]
Who you got, man, that's hard. Obviously the guys coming out right now, I think you could really pinpoint any one of them I got comes to mind is at least on defenses, Ashton Jalotti, right? The defensive end who's been, he was a presence every single day. I think he's a really good dude. He's got a lot of juice to him. I mean, he's 21, 22, so he's. I mean, at that position, I think that's good. You got to have some. You got to have some juice to you. I think Jacori's done a really good job throughout this whole process. Coming in, being a transfer guy, being a leader. He's got, you know, really cool skill set. And then Quincy as well, he. He's another transfer guy. He's. He's really smart. He's got all the tools. And, I mean, that's kind of been really. To your point is. My favorite part of this whole process is the relationships I built from Oregon to guys being in my wedding to my coaches being invited to the wedding at Tech, and just everybody. Because, like, you find out who really is in your corner whenever you go through that things and those things, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. So being. Being. Working with guys, guys who are 17, 18 years old, from Miami, Florida, at Louisville to. In the past, you know, playing. Playing with some guy who's four years older than me from Washington, got cruised from Washington or Texas and having to go drink some beers with the O line and, you know, being cool with the receivers as well and kind of connecting with everybody and.
- [92:14]
Right.
- [92:14]
You know, those are the questions that come up.
- [92:18]
Todd McShay
Your wife, is she ready for all this?
- [92:21]
Unknown Speaker
I think she's probably more ready for it than I am.
- [92:23]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [92:24]
Unknown Speaker
She. She played soccer at Oregon.
- [92:27]
Todd McShay
She.
- [92:27]
Unknown Speaker
She's. She's more of an athlete than I am, honestly. She. She sacrificed a lot. We were planning on being done with college, you know, three years ago.
- [92:35]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [92:36]
Unknown Speaker
And it was like, okay, we're gonna move. She's gonna move to Tech or it will be, you know, it's gonna work out. We're gonna live the dream. It's like, boom. Okay, let's set the wedding date right here. Boom. And it's like, this happens. And, you know, obviously, Coach Brown, they were great with us, you know, finally getting married during spring ball, but it was like, she. She's been my rock throughout this whole process, and I candidly would not be here without her support, just through everything. And. And my dog as well. And that's. That's literally my life now. I don't have a gaming system. I don't have. Really don't do anything other than go on walks and just hang out and watch movies, so.
- [93:12]
Todd McShay
It's important, man.
- [93:12]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's. It gives you that perspective shift. But she's. She's helped me learn kind of some of the west coast system. So far throughout this whole process, she's been great. She's been helping me out. So hopefully we're going to try and get her good with the playbook by the time we hopefully get somewhere.
- [93:26]
Todd McShay
Yeah. So speaking of that, like, where. Where are you planning on being for draft weekend? What's the setup? What's the.
- [93:32]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [93:33]
Todd McShay
Mindset?
- [93:33]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. So I've been training in Dallas with my quarterback coach, Landry Klon, at Kibi country, and exos out there. They do a really good job. And then I'll be in Arizona for the draft week just to be around the family. My grandparents are getting older, so we wanted to for sure have them be in there. They're in their 90s, and they've been amazing, as well as my parents and family and friends. So I'm excited to get back to Arizona for a little bit, be in the sunshine, and hopefully get some good news there.
- [94:00]
Todd McShay
After everything you've been through, you're going to get a phone call. It's going to be a general mission manager, a head coach or an owner, and you're going to be passed around to those people. I mean, I know your. Your head space isn't there now, but what do you anticipate that will be like to finally. It's just the start of the journey. It's not the end, but to know, like, all right, we're here. It's. It's time to go to work. We finally know what the future is.
- [94:27]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. You know, I mean, first of all, I mean, I'm going to feel really, really grateful and indebted just because I know that they believe in me and I believe in myself. And that's what I want to convey is just that, you know, I'm gonna. I'm gonna find a way to be the best. The best guy in the room every single day and try and elevate everybody else and be somebody who you want to be around and work with and have a lot of fun. And I think it's just going to be like a culmination of all those things where that's been my whole thought process, man. This is a bonus. Why are you nervous, man? This wasn't even supposed to happen.
- [94:55]
Todd McShay
Right.
- [94:56]
Unknown Speaker
And obviously you want goodness nerves, but it's just like, this is. This is. This has been a lot of fun. People are complaining. Oh, man, this. This sucks. It's like this. We got so much to do, and it's like, we got all these scans, we got all these. These interviews. I'm like, what else do you Want to be doing?
- [95:11]
Todd McShay
Yeah. Where you got to be?
- [95:13]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. I'm like, this is awesome. You know, like, football doesn't last forever. You know, like, we playing golf and pickleball. Probably, you know, 25, 30 years from now. I don't have a lot of time to do that, but by golly, I'm gonna do this right now for as long as I can. So I wouldn't have been able. I wouldn't have had that mindset. I probably two, three years ago. Like, some of these guys, man, I'm entitled to this. You know, I'm. Whatever. It's like, no, you're not.
- [95:36]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [95:36]
Unknown Speaker
Go earn it.
- [95:37]
Todd McShay
Yep. All right. Last thing for me. If we're gonna put our chips in on you, man, can you please start protecting yourself a little bit?
- [95:44]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [95:44]
Todd McShay
You're like a linebacker. Something like. I love it. It's. You know, I always say that's like, what makes us great is all can also be our fatal flaw.
- [95:51]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [95:51]
Todd McShay
Have you worked on, like, the mindset.
- [95:53]
Unknown Speaker
Of trying to like, 100%. I mean, I think you see that at Texas Tech. You know, I think I. There was a stat I was researching just because people asked me about, you know, running. It's like, oh, why didn't you run a lot at Louisville? I was like, well, that wasn't in the offense that we do. And, you know, at Tech, it was like five games. I had over 80 rushes, and in all year at Louisville, I had 42. Whether that's, you know, design, design or just scrambles. But a lot of those were more designed at Tech. And I think I had, you know, like I said, it was more of a mentality of like, I'm. Oh, like I'm gonna run so hard. So my coaches are proud of me, loves me, and it's like, what are we doing? Yeah, like, yeah, no, like, if it's third or fourth down. Yeah, get the first down and then let's keep the chains moving. Let's go. And if it's first, second down, protect your body. But I was more aware of my check down. I. Like I said before, I didn't think I took a lot of, you know, sacks to the. To the point. I had to be more aware of it. I was more in tune to the protections because we had two 17 year old running backs or 18 year old running backs that just aren't familiar with protections. They're. Obviously, we're great athletes who were great for us, but I was. Had to be more aware of that, and it was great for me, like, I was in the past but you know, every single time telling them who you got standing there. So it just all like to your point. Yeah, I'm going to be more. I'll be more aware of it but. But I think you see on tape at Louisville a lot more self awareness of that and trying to protect myself and keep going.
- [97:12]
Todd McShay
It was going to be my last question, but it just dawned on me. Are you running the 40?
- [97:18]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
- [97:19]
Todd McShay
Are you going to run faster than Jackson Dart?
- [97:21]
Unknown Speaker
I don't know what he's going to run.
- [97:23]
Todd McShay
What are you going to run?
- [97:24]
Unknown Speaker
I mean probably like four, three or something like that. So some slight.
- [97:28]
Todd McShay
I may or may not have a bet with somebody that I know know. That's not true. That is not true.
- [97:34]
Unknown Speaker
I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna run it. I don't know if, I don't know if he's running it, but I'm like, dude, might as well like. Yeah, this is combine.
- [97:40]
Todd McShay
I love it.
- [97:41]
Unknown Speaker
Even if it's not like I feel like I check a lot of those boxes on filming in the past, you.
- [97:45]
Todd McShay
Know, well, go win me a dinner, man.
- [97:47]
Unknown Speaker
I got you. I'm literally gonna do everything I can.
- [97:49]
Todd McShay
I appreciate you. I appreciate it. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18/ plus and present in D.C. gambling problem, call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit RG D help dot com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelp linema.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny in New.