← The McShay Show
The McShay Show
Risers, Fallers, and Understanding the Quarterback Landscape After the NFL Combine. Plus, Talking Life After the Super Bowl With Eagles GM Howie Roseman.
01:52:25
Loading summary
Transcript264 lines
- [00:00]
Todd McShay
It's the McShay show, presented by FanDuel. The NFL Draft is right around the corner and FanDuel is the best place to get in on all the action. The app is safe, secure and easy to use. FanDuel always has exclusive offers. When you win, you'll get paid instantly. And FanDuel has lots of ways to bet the draft, with loads more coming between now and the first pick. So download the FanDuel Sportsbook app today and make every moment more. During the NFL Draft, the ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of this episode for additional details. Must be 21 and older and present in select states. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit RG D help.com this episode is brought to you by Noll. Every day is an opportunity to grow stronger, especially when you've got best in class award winning footwear backing you up. NO bowl is a footwear brand for training and for daily life built to support you in your pursuit of physical, mental and emotional strength. And get this exclusive for the McShay show listeners. No bull is offering 30% off your order. Visit nollproject.com mcshay for 30% off your entire order. That's N O B U L L P R O j e c t.com backslash McShay for 30% off. Shador Sanders interviews left a couple teams drafting at the top Perplexed combine workouts are in the books. Which players benefited the most and what are some of the results that we simply cannot unsee? Just 52 days until the NFL draft. Mench, you good?
- [01:47]
Mensch
I'm good, man.
- [01:48]
Todd McShay
All right, play me that beat, please. All right, men, we're we got a lot to unpack, man. We really do. I told you on on our last show on Saturday night that had a lot of conversations with different people and we've got some intel that I'm finally able to drop. And if you are subscribed to the the McShay Report, you read it this morning and if you're not, please subscribe. Just google the McShay report and you'll be able to find it. Find it right there. It's $4 for the rest of this draft. Also $36 double down through this draft and all of next year including the 2026 draft. So there's my sales pitch for the day. It's done. Thank you for being here. We got a great show today. A lot to get into. But I want to first of all let everyone know we really do appreciate all the, the, you know, the numbers at the combine, the, the people who have been following the show from the beginning, people who are starting to kind of get, you know, attached to it because we're, we're leading up to the draft. We appreciate your support. Please subscribe. I think it's like a stupid like percentage of the number of viewers versus like the, the subscribers and, and people who are, you know, kind of invested in helping us out. It's like less than 10% or something. So I've been told to please, just shy of beg, make sure that you click the subscribe button. It will help us out as we try to grow this thing moving forward. So two sales pitches in the books. Now let's get, let's get to the, the important stuff. Right before I do that, we had an awesome interview with, with Howie Roseman, general manager of the super bowl winning Philadelphia Eagles at the, the Combine Men. What did you think of that, that interview?
- [03:46]
Mensch
I couldn't believe how open he was, how frank he was. And he has an all time line in that interview that I don't want to give away right now, but it's worth tuning in.
- [03:55]
Todd McShay
Yeah, right off the jump too, right?
- [03:57]
Mensch
Yeah.
- [03:57]
Todd McShay
So like he'll, he'll hook you right away. He set, he set the tone. Like I'm actually going to come and talk and I'm going to be real. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be me. I don't know if it's the super bowl hangover. I just, I've known Howie for a long time and he's a fascinating guy to me. Both his journey and just the way he handles business and, and kind of the, the good reputation, the, the false negative reputation, all those sorts of things. We got to, all of it at the end of this show. You're able to, able to listen to that interview. We'll run it right at the end. So if you're, if you're listening on Spotify, if you're listening on wherever else, Apple, anywhere else that you get your podcast. And also if you just want to go visit that separately at a different time, it will live forever on our YouTube page, the McShay Show YouTube page. So that's where you can get all that. We also had an unbelievable interview with Tyler Shuck and we'll get to shuck later. But you can also find that wherever you get your, your podcast that was at the end of Friday's show. And you can also see that that's a separate, a separate rollout on the McShay show page, our homepage on the YouTube page. So. All right, I had to get all that stuff in. Getting a lot of calls today, as you would imagine. The McShay report came out this morning. You and I had talked about one of the conversations I had had. I had a second conversation. Both of these conversations were with, let's just say, high ranking personnel people in different personnel departments for different NFL teams. Both of those teams, and this is the important part, both of those teams are drafting in the top 10. Both of those teams have a need at quarterback. When we talk about the six teams in the top 10 that need a quarterback. I spoke to individuals, high ranking individuals who were in, they call them official interviews or official meetings inside the league. They call them officials. Right. These 15 minute interviews at the combine are typically, and it's interesting, we even, we had a conversation with somebody else separately that had nothing to do with Shador Sanders, who was just saying how, how the people in that room, the number of people in that room had been significantly reduced. You remember that conversation?
- [06:13]
Mensch
Right, right.
- [06:15]
Todd McShay
And, and so when I say that he's, you know, these people were in the, in the rooms, like this is not like 50 people from a given organization in the room. It's, it's decision makers. People are part of the true process. Like whether you like it or not, there's a small group of people that really have a say in what's going to go on. And it's not always the area scouts and it's not always some of the other people in the personnel department. So it's a small group inside a room that sit down for 15 minutes. And I should say too, these interviews are essentially viewed by NFL teams as a first job interview, but it's to lay a foundation. So in these interviews, you'll start to talk to them about your offensive system. Maybe you go through a couple plays and what's going to happen next is you've got the privates, you've got private workouts. You've got where your, your crew, your core group. If it's a quarterback, you're sending out your general manager, maybe in some cases your owner, but your offensive coordinator, your quarterback coach and a couple other people. And you go to where within 30 miles of where they played in school or where they grew up to have those, those, those private workouts. Then there's an opportunity to bring them in for the 30s. Right. You bring in people, call it 30. It's not the top 30. You can choose any. It could be a seventh round undrafted prospect, but you choose 30 individuals on your board that you want to bring in to your facility, spend a day with them, get to know them more. There are different opportunities throughout this process to get to know these players. Okay. And this is kind of the first step and the foundation of, okay, here's the start of our relationship. But the key decision makers get to know you and, and be prepared because we're going to meet with you a few more times before the draft. And these are the things that we're going to start, you know, building on off of what our conversations were.
- [08:13]
Mensch
Just to set the table.
- [08:14]
Todd McShay
Just to set the table. I'm pausing because I want. I want to make sure I phrase this property. The two people that I spoke to were in meetings and had these individual meetings that I just laid out to you what they are, who's in there and why they're important teams in the top 10 drafting that need a quarterback. The two people that I spoke to in these positions left the meeting feeling like Shador Sanders was not overly concerned with what they thought of him. They had the 15 minute meeting with them, and when they were done, they both said in different ways, different words, that they did not feel like Shador Sanders cared all that much about what that organization thought of him. Fascinating. Right?
- [09:04]
Mensch
Right. And that's not said in any kind of a positive light correctly. It wasn't like they came in there and he knew who he was and he wasn't concerned about impressing us. It's more of a negative tone, the way you're saying that.
- [09:16]
Todd McShay
Right.
- [09:17]
Mensch
You're saying it in a way that he did not come in with, you know, ready to impress, ready to show us what kind of a young man he is, what kind of a leader he can be. All of the positive things. That's what you're saying, correct?
- [09:29]
Todd McShay
This was not a. I mean, okay, I. I'll make a joke in a second, but I, I do. I. All right, let's go. Let's go through this in the right order. Couple of the quotes that I put in there. One said that it just, it wasn't a press, a professional approach. One. One person that I talked to said the best way I can describe it is just wasn't a prep. It wasn't a professional approach. Shador Sanders did not take a professional approach to this interview. The other person I talked to said he wasn't taking it seriously at all. I didn't get the sense that he was taking it seriously. So when you hear it wasn't a professional approach and you hear he wasn't taking it all that seriously, that's not the interview that you're looking. It's not the response you're looking for from a potential suitor from somewhere you plan to go play. Now, I think it's also important because I'm sure people pull clips and, and have all sorts of things to say. It's very important. And hear me when I say this, there was no bad behavior. There was nothing disrespectful said or done. There was no kind of altercation and wasn't like goodwill hunting when Ben Affleck went in for Matt Damon and put his feet up on the desk and yelled, retainer, retainer. Like, it wasn't that. So I'm not trying to, like, overblow this to try to get clicks and people get, you know, this is not a viral moment. I don't care about the attention this gets. It's just our job to relay the information and the intel that we're getting from people that are important and make decisions, are part of the decision process from the teams that are drafted looking to draft a quarterback and have a high draft pick. So there's a lot to unpack here. Right.
- [11:24]
Mensch
Okay.
- [11:25]
Todd McShay
Initial thoughts.
- [11:27]
Mensch
I am concerned that this is a young man who maybe doesn't understand what the market value is for him right now. I think one of the overwhelming storylines coming out of this, this combine is that not only is he not all that close to Cam Ward in terms of that quarterback one race, that he's falling, and that it's maybe quarterback three discussion time now. And the reason I say why he doesn't understand his market value is if you're a young man, I mean, we've heard stories of other prospects doing this. Who knows they're a top five pick. And, you know, you could say, no, I'm not interviewing with, With Denver. I'm not going there, or I'm not interviewing with any of the teams outside of the top 10, because I know I'm not going there. And you could kind of take that approach. He's not that guy. It doesn't seem like he's that guy. Now. Maybe he knows something we don't know, and maybe I'm wrong about that. But that's, that's. And, and, and I'm being honest when I say, like, I'm concerned about that, because why are you closing doors? I don't feel like he's a prospect in a Position to close doors or burn bridges or whatever, saying you want to use. I think he should be trying to make as positive an impact as he can across the board just in case whatever happened he thinks is going to happen, doesn't happen.
- [12:39]
Todd McShay
Let me get to a couple things you just said right there, and you nailed it because those, those are the thoughts running through my head too. Right when I'm getting this information, I'm having conversations. Those are a couple, A couple of the thoughts that I was trying to unpack. Just personally, as I, as I was getting. And this is important to note too. These were casual conversations. If I talked to an individual for 30 to 50 minutes, 10, 15 was, how's life? You know, how's your family? How's. So this. I did not call anybody and these were in person, but I did not call anybody and say, hey, how did your interview go?
- [13:21]
Mensch
Yeah, there's no fishing here.
- [13:23]
Todd McShay
Zero. Just talking ball, talking family, talking life, then talking ball. And I actually. And one of them was talking, was, was talking about Tyler Schuck and how good our interview was and how impressed I am with his maturity. And, and, and it was not promoting or pushing, just kind of, you know, what are you, what are you hearing? Those sorts of things. And this was. Brought. Both cases brought to my attention without asking. Never even mentioned the name Shador. Okay. So that, that's part of it. The other part that I want to relay, I promise you, I can think of like a dozen off the top of my head right now where either the story came from a general manager or scout or someone who was in these interviews or a player several years later that I worked, you know, at ESPN with where similar type stuff like, man, yeah, I went into that meeting and like, they were all over me. Like, I'll never forget Team A was, was yelling at me and coming at me, and I'm like, I'm not being picked by you. I'm not going to be available when you pick. And then the flip side, talking to. I've talked to other, you know, personnel people who have been like, yeah, you know, so and so came in, we're picking at 10. He was nice enough to come in and have the meeting, but we know and he knows that we ain't drafting him unless we're trading up. We ain't drafting them. But circumstances change, man.
- [14:51]
Mensch
Yeah. Quickly.
- [14:52]
Todd McShay
There's a couple parts to this that, that hit me the wrong way. A Circumstances change. I just mentioned there are six teams in the top 10 that need a quarterback. And, and I, I'M certain Shador Sanders mission at the end of this is to be drafted as high as possible. But also, as Dion has told us, to the right organization. And let me, let me read you this quote, right. I put this in, in the report. Dion San. Dion's Deion Sanders coach Prime has made it abundantly clear that, like, he's going to have input on where Shador is drafted. And he said in the Dan Patrick interview. Right. Just. This is one of many interviews that we've, that we've, we've heard and seen. There's a lot of teams I prefer he didn't play for. Right. Right. So. So going into that, coming into this problem and we've talked a lot about it, we understand he's. Deion's been through this. Deion is. His whole adult life has been in and around the NFL and now college coaching. And so there's very few people that I, that I trust more to have a beat on what's actually going on in the league and what this draft process is like.
- [16:06]
Mensch
Can I just interject really quickly, though, because we're both fathers, there's a blind spot sometimes when it's your kid, I think, and maybe I'm wrong. I hear your point. I'll let you continue. I'll let you go on. Because what you're saying on paper makes a thousand percent sense. You couldn't be more correct. But there is a human factor to this. There is a human element, and I do get concerned that it wanted to. Your kid. You have a little bit of a blind spot. Go on. Sorry.
- [16:32]
Howie Roseman
Yeah.
- [16:33]
Todd McShay
Point well taken. Truly point well taken. But he, but he also is immensely knowledgeable and has connections like very few others.
- [16:42]
Mensch
No doubt. No question.
- [16:44]
Todd McShay
So there's this like, tug right, tug left. When I'm getting this information. The tug to one side is the Sanders camp knows something that we don't know and nobody seems to know.
- [16:58]
Mensch
Right.
- [16:59]
Todd McShay
And. And I also want to say this. I'm not Shefter. I'm not Ian Rapaport. I'm not. What's the other guy's name? Sorry. The Schultz. I'm not getting. I'm not getting in fights in Starbucks. You know, like, trying to, like all that. Not having the barista call NFL security. So, so people like. When I, when I think about this, I'm shocked because. Why do I say that? I say that because there are a lot more people that if, if personnel individuals, people in personnel departments, high ranking officials, wanted to get this information out, had an ax to grind. That's where they go with this information. Okay. Right. But I'm also saying it because that's not my lane. These were just conversations, but I'm also surprised that other people haven't gotten it. And if they have gotten this information. There are networks that are relying heavily, heavily on the presence of Coach Prime, Shador Sanders and Travis Hunter at the NFL draft. Broadcast networks relying heavily because the lead up is going to be a lot about Shador, a lot about Travis, a lot about Coach Prime. In. In draft, when drafted, they're like, the interviews are critical that they get them the red carpet. All the things the draft has become, whether we love it or not.
- [18:28]
Mensch
So do you think if you thought it was uncomfortable watching Aaron Rodgers fall in the draft, imagine what's going to happen if Shador falls?
- [18:35]
Todd McShay
Well, so, so that's, that's this tug. So one part of me is tugging, saying, you know what, Todd? Like, this probably isn't going to matter. It's probably going to have no bearing on his draft stock. That a couple teams were not impressed. Felt like he doesn't care what we think about him because again, it's one team. We talk about this, it's just one team. Right? It's one team. And we could talk about like, Tennessee has a quarterback need. Cleveland at two has a quarterback need. Giants at three have a quarterback need. Right. At six, the, the Raiders have a quarterback need. At seven, the jets have a quarterback need. Nine, the Saints have a quarterback need.
- [19:12]
Mensch
So really quickly, though, not to mention what happened with Penix in Atlanta last year. You never know. You never know if there's a team 100% went out and signed a veteran and then says, man, like, we love Shador so much that if he somehow gets to us, we're still going to take them because we think we can develop. And looked. And again, I didn't think it was the right move. But look at what's happening in Atlanta now. You know, now they might have their guy, even though that was unthinkable at the time. Team. Other teams might look at that and say, we, this is not a need, but he's too good of a quarterback for him to let us get. For us to let him get by us. Sorry.
- [19:51]
Todd McShay
No, don't be sorry. Like, these are the conversations I love having because it's like, let's just talk about it and let's unpack it a little bit because there's so much here. Even though it's just like a little bit of knowledge and it's just a couple interviews but there's so many elements to this. And we said, like, when we started October 22nd, one of the first things we got to in the first few shows was this is going to be one of the most fascinating drafts. If for no other reason, but because Coach prime is involved with one of the top two quarterbacks, who's his son, and Travis as well. And there's going to be some stuff that goes on behind the scenes that is going to be different. And because when. When it happened with John Elway, when it happened with Eli Manning, not a lot of people knew what was going on. And to be honest, I. No one's reporting. The only thing I've heard about Shador is he was really helpful to Will Howard after he missed some throws. He's smiling all, you know, the whole time on the field, having a good time. And then when he took the podium and talking about franchises and turning things around, like, that's all the news. So there's no news about what's going on behind the scenes. And to my point here, I'm not the only one who's gotten this information. I can't.
- [21:03]
Mensch
No way. Right.
- [21:04]
Todd McShay
I'm Todd McShay. I covered. I cover the draft prospect. Yes. I cover the draft. Yes. Like, it's a, It's a way to get that information out. But that wasn't. I know these people very well. That was not the. It was not the point of this. It was just like they're unpacking it, too. Okay. But. So this tug is like, ah, well, Shador probably knows where he's going. They've probably worked out a deal. Or worst case, it's this organization or, or we, we've decided it's. This is going to be the home. But the other side of me is like, I've had multiple conversations, too, with these personnel people and other personnel people who see the same things that we talked about on tape. Best pure passer. Unbelievable. When in rhythm, touch, timing, layering the ball, throwing receivers open, Great instincts as a passer when on the move, rolling right, rolling left. He can do things that are magical. Right, Right. But in those conversations, it's. He's not that great an athlete. Holds on to the ball too long, bailing out a lot right and left, leaving easy cash on the field. 710 yard gains because he's looking for more home runs. And two different times with two different people I talked to. And we've, we've covered this as well. It's a lot of the same stuff that we were worried about. With Caleb Williams coming out, the difference is Chador is a fraction of the athlete the Caleb Williams is. And we saw how poorly that went this year. And so there's work to be done with this guy. Yeah, he's not going to be able to elude and extend plays at nearly like maybe 20% the clip that he did at Colorado. So. So when I hear the Caleb stuff and I want you to like frame this mentally, the things that got Caleb into a lot of trouble as a rookie were some of the things we were worried about coming out, but they were accentuated in the NFL because it's faster defensive lineman in the play and everything's happening faster. And Caleb's got great athleticism and the ability to extend. He's absolutely dynamic in that way. Shador is not. And so the worry is, are we getting someone who's. We really have to have. Like, everything's got to be in place. And so then I, then I start to think about a couple other things. The next thing is no one's talking about Cam Ward. No, everyone wanted to talk to me about Shador Jackson Dart, Tyler Schuck, even Will Howard. And we'll get to, we'll get to all those conversations in a minute here. It's like crickets with Cam Ward. And you know what that means. I got 25 years of history in this, Truly. I'm leaning on, I'm leaning on all of it. It means he's the guy we want. So I like, I don't want to, I don't care what you think about him. I don't care what. And also, I don't want his name coming out of my mouth. And we'll get to that in a second, truly, in just a minute or two here, because I want to wrap this up. But why. But this is the part I keep going back to. I talked about on one side, it's tugging like Todd, who cares? The Sanders have, you know, the Coach prime, the Sanders family, they've got it worked out. They, they know where he's going. They've identified it. They're working behind back channels, behind the scenes. And there's a reason why Shador is so confident going into these meetings that he's not treating it like it's life or death like most of us would like. The vast majority of prospects at any position, especially at the quarterback position, trying to get drafted high, would treat this 15 minute process. The other tug is why on God's green earth when there are six teams drafting in the top 10 that need a Quarterback, would you reduce the demand? Why would you shrink that demand? I'm not saying that neither of these two people from different teams said, well, we're not drafted. It wasn't like that.
- [25:14]
Mensch
No one said, he's off the board.
- [25:15]
Todd McShay
But there was a. There, as I said, off the top, there was a feeling of he doesn't really care what we think of him. No one said it like, we don't. He's off our board. We don't. Like, he's. We're gonna go in a different direction. It was not that kind of conversation both times. Okay, but why would you shrink the potential supply?
- [25:37]
Mensch
You know, no idea.
- [25:41]
Todd McShay
Or. Or the demand. I should say, why would you shrink the demand other than he clearly doesn't.
- [25:47]
Mensch
Want to go to these teams? I mean, that would be the. The thing we've discussed before and what we'll be discussing now. But I think there's a different way of handling that other than trying to manipulate it with how poorly you interview.
- [26:00]
Todd McShay
And it. Well, yeah, again, I, I don't want. It's. I'm going to keep coming back to this because it's important, because people are going to listen or watch. And. And we appreciate everyone who is. There was nothing blatant or like, no. Nothing disrespectful done in these meetings. No, Nothing contentious, nothing disrespectful. Nothing where not even a single nothing was said specifically about a word, words that were said or actions. It wasn't a body language, none of that. It was just, we, like, we've been in a million of these over whatever the. The course of our careers are. And you know, when someone doesn't really truly care what. What our. What our thoughts are on him. So, so now it's. If you've got six in the top 10, and let's say Tennessee is going to pass on a quarterback if. If the information is correct, and I don't even know if that's definitively true. We got a lot, lot of time to figure that out. But if Tennessee passes on a quarterback, now you're down to five. So two of the teams. Two of the teams are like, well, he does. He's not coming. He doesn't seem to think he's coming here. So now we're down to three. You know what I mean? Yeah. Why are we shrinking? And Cam's going to one of those. So now we're down to two, right?
- [27:21]
Howie Roseman
You get.
- [27:22]
Todd McShay
Cam's going. Cam's first quarterback off the board. So now we're down to two. Why are we shrinking the demand when there's more supply to leverage. Right?
- [27:32]
Mensch
Yeah. One of those teams signed Sam Darnold in a week or whatever, you know, and all of a sudden, what's happening here. Think, like you said, the landscape is shifting. It is quickly, this league.
- [27:44]
Todd McShay
To your Pennic's point, too. Maybe there's a surprise team that's looking to move up to go get him, but has conversation. These. All these teams talk, man.
- [27:52]
Mensch
Right.
- [27:53]
Todd McShay
And so if I have a conversation, if I'm. If I'm a general manager from a different team, that's like we. We kind of quietly, like Shador, we're outside of the top 10, but we're gonna. We. We're. We're kind of. We're investigating. We're, you know, poking around to maybe potentially move up and grab them somewhere around five sit, you know, somewhere in that range, Jacksonville might move out, New England might move out. We. Maybe we want to move. But then I'm hearing this information, and I promise you, like people in the league, they. They talk like, oh, well, then my thought process. Oh, Shadur, they've already worked something out somewhere.
- [28:30]
Mensch
I mean, you hope so.
- [28:31]
Todd McShay
I don't know. It's just.
- [28:32]
Mensch
There's just not bank. You hope he's not banking on something like that if he doesn't know. I mean, if that's the approach, then I hope they know something. And you're right. You're right. If anyone is going to be in that position, it's. It's that family to understand, you know, they. They might have something in place. So you're right about that. But I hope he's not banking on someone coming to get him.
- [28:56]
Todd McShay
So let's look at the landscape a little bit before we move on to. I found it fascinating no one brought up Cam Ward. Right. And I said that before. So Cam Ward's either going, here's. Here's what we know, okay. Because you. You might as well check yourself into a loony bin if, If. If you don't listen to Adam Schefter when he makes such definitive comments like he did about Cleveland is going to take a quarterback at number two. And, And I think we all agree Cam Ward would be that guy if that's the case. So based off that information, and by the way, it would be one of the greatest smoke screens of all time if they were able to get that. Like the. And, And Shefty's a good friend of mine. Like, I don't need to. I don't need to sit here and support Schefter, like his work speaks for himself. He is like head and heels above everybody else in this business, period. Period. There's one of him. He's him. Shefter's him. Okay, right.
- [30:01]
Mensch
He's.
- [30:01]
Todd McShay
I'm saying how, how, how impressive would it be if Cleveland was able to, you know, send that smoke out there through, through him and, and, and it not be the case.
- [30:14]
Mensch
Yeah, but you know who loves that report, right? Tennessee loves that.
- [30:19]
Todd McShay
Tennessee loves that report. But, but you asked a question. Why did, why would Cleveland do that? It's because they want to make sure if they, if Cleveland's not going quarterback, which was some of the noise I was hearing earlier.
- [30:31]
Mensch
Right.
- [30:31]
Todd McShay
If Cleveland's not going quarterback, they want Abdul to fall to him. They got a problem on their hands with Miles Garrett, so that, so they're trying to get the Giants to move up or the jets from six to move up or the Raiders from seven to move up ahead of the. Whoever. They don't care who it is. They just want to make sure that quarterback goes one. If, if they've decided as an organization we're not going quarterback. That's why you would get that information out there, because you want a quarterback to go, any quarterback. If it's Abdul they love or if it's Travis they love, they want to make sure that that player available too. Okay, so we're all on the same page here, but again, check yourself into a loony bin. You belong in a psych ward if you don't at least take that seriously. And so now all the, all the buzz and rumors and speculation and all the kind of behind the scenes conversations that, that, that I was having and, and a lot of, of much more qualified people in the information business were having in Indianapolis for a week as we were posted up there. And it was 63 degrees one day and snowing the next. All the information was surrounding the Giants at 3 and then some buzz about the jets at 6 and then even some, some, some whispers about the Raiders at seven and they're interested trading up ahead of Cleveland at two, because remember, that information comes out now all of a sudden I think teams are like, all right, well, if they're taking them at two and if we decide through this process that we want that Cam Ward's our guy, we're gonna have to go up and get him. And so Tennessee, as to your point, coming back to it, Tennessee's in a, in a great situation. Albert Brer, he's a burp breer, he lives down the road Good friend of ours and he just. I just love the Monday morning quarterback. Peter King did it at like an exceptionally high level forever. It's hard. It's hard to follow a legend, but check out his Monday morning quarterback. I just thought it was fascinating. If anyone's interested in like behind the scenes, what goes into the entire process of having that number one overall pick? Who are the people involved in it? What's the history of their drafting and what they've been through before? I thought it was a, a fascinating read, but Tennessee is looking at it according to Brer and I wouldn't disagree from anything A, I've heard or B that I believe in evaluating that it's really going to come down to Cam Ward, Shador Sanders, Abdul Carter, Travis Hunter, that number one pick or when they get to the end of their process, which is detailed in Albert Breer's Monday Morning Quarterback piece, if they're just not. If this guy isn't everything you need him to be in a number one pick. If they haven't found their guy, then we start listening. Seriously. Like we'll field phone calls and talk like what it might. But what. But if you get to the end of that process and you're like, yeah, we really love this player, but it would be more beneficial for us to trade back. They're going to start fielding calls later and figure out what that would look like. And that's when we're going to start hearing are the Giants for real about moving up? Jets for real. You know, so there's a lot to come here and a lot to unpack. But the rumors, like there was a, as I said to you, like the valet guy, the bellhop, the bartender, I'm sure every single one of them in Indy heard something.
- [33:54]
Mensch
Someone has a take. Yeah, everyone has a take.
- [33:57]
Todd McShay
Something the barista and Starbucks. Something about the Giants and their, and their want to move up and, and let me make this clear too, because I know, I know they came up short in the Matthew Stafford, the Giants deal. You know, there's a lot of talk about the Raiders and the Giants with, with Matthew, Matthew Stafford, he winds up going back to the Rams. I think even to be honest, I think part of the, part of what was enticing is we can win now, but while also getting our fan base excited about the future. Of course, quarterback, we can win a lot more games than we've been winning recently. If you're the Giants with Matthew Stafford at quarterback and probably attract a free agent or two that we couldn't attract without him while still developing our next guy. And Matthew's not going to be pissed off about that because he's not planning on playing the league five more years.
- [34:45]
Mensch
Right.
- [34:46]
Todd McShay
So I don't think coming up short on the Matthew Stafford sweepstakes will. Will play at all into that. And maybe it's Aaron Rodgers now. It's a name I've heard.
- [34:58]
Mensch
Yeah.
- [34:58]
Todd McShay
Every one of these teams you're hearing Sam Darnold is a possibility. So I don't think one of those veterans, especially in Aaron Rodgers. I think it would. It would set up perfectly for what we've talked about with bring in a veteran, have a gap, bridge the gap guy and then. And then draft a quarterback. So I think the Giants legitimately will make phone calls if they haven't, and I'm certain they have already. Just, hey, let us know. Let us know if it becomes available and let's maybe talk parameters on what it could be. But I think the Giants will potentially try to move up there.
- [35:38]
Mensch
Yeah, that conversation's already started.
- [35:40]
Todd McShay
I say that and I go back to what you said, Mensch. Either. Either should door. And this is the most important thing I'm going to say today. Either Shador and Coach prime, the Sanders family and that team know exactly how this thing's going to play out. Or based off of our tape study evaluation and while we like Shador Sanders a whole lot, but also based off of the com. The.
- [36:09]
Mensch
The.
- [36:09]
Todd McShay
The stuff that we see on tape that's concerning and the conversations I've had, the Caleb Williams stuff, fraction of the athlete, all those sorts of things. It could be a long first night of the draft for Shador Sanders. It's either this thing's done, this is going to be done, taken care of, they know exactly where he's going, they get the last laugh. Or it could get really interesting that night.
- [36:33]
Mensch
Yeah, I hope it's the first. I have. I have no interest in seeing. Yeah, I have no interest in seeing.
- [36:38]
Todd McShay
No, no. I want him to land in the right spot where he's developed properly and has the most successful career he could ever have.
- [36:45]
Mensch
Right, Exactly.
- [36:46]
Todd McShay
I love Coach Prime. I love what he's doing. I love that he's doing it differently. I just. I think that there's a lot more to what he's doing than just like the media attention and all that stuff. I find Shador to be. To be fascinating. I think. I love it. Find me a tougher quarterback. I mean, there's times he's getting knocked down 10, 12 times a game, popping right back Up. I've seen him several times where I'm like, oh, right, back up. So like we're, we're pulling for all of these guys. But, and, and I have a great appreciation for his toughness and, and his competitiveness. Right. But it, it sets up to be fascinating that first night of the draft. It really does. It really does.
- [37:35]
Mensch
This is not the last conversation we're going to have about this situation.
- [37:38]
Todd McShay
Not at all. Okay, so now the other part that was fascinating to me by, from all my conversations in, in Indianapolis, there's a lot more talk about that Tier 2 quarterback group than even I expected. And you know, I'm a, I'm a big Jackson Dart fan and I gotta be honest, Tyler Schuck, I have a fascination with him. I think Tyler Schuck might be the second most physically gifted quarterback in this draft. No, scratch that. Tyler Schuck is the second most physically gifted quarterback in this class. He's bigger than the other guys, he's faster than the other guys. He's got just a strong arm as Cam Ward. He's in that neighborhood. At least Tyler Schuck is mature. He's been through wars. He had three season ending injuries and everyone's knocking him on that. But they're, they're bone breaks. These are not knees, they're not hips, they're not backs. They're not things that are, they're, and I don't want to call them flukes because you do worry like some guys just, you know, break or don't hold up as easily. So it, it absolutely will factor in. But Tyler Shuck's injuries were not things that are going to be recurring. They're not things that you worry about five, six years down the road. Okay. And, and yeah, he's going to be 25. But, but what happened during this past seven years in college, starting out behind Justin Herbert as a backup and transferring three times. Seven years in college, four different degrees and an additional degree in like life and how to handle adversity. He got, he's gotten married. Yeah, but like the maturity level is different with this cat than, than the other guys. Okay. And, and five different offenses he's been through.
- [39:30]
Mensch
True. You're more of the historian than I am. So tell me. I mean, feel free to point out why this is an issue. I couldn't care less that he's 25 years old. Quarterbacks now play until Falcons didn't care.
- [39:42]
Todd McShay
About Penix's age last year.
- [39:43]
Mensch
Why, why am I caring about that? With all the advancements, the Way the game in terms of nutrition, in terms of training, in terms of all that stuff. And then also the way the games change to protect quarterbacks and not to mention the fact you could be 22 and have a career ending injury tomorrow. That just happens.
- [39:58]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [39:59]
Mensch
So I'm not really, I'm not really stressed out about that 25 year old thing.
- [40:04]
Todd McShay
And, and I got to be honest with you, there are very few, There are some, there are a handful, but very few general managers in the, in the NFL who feel safe and very few head coaches.
- [40:15]
Mensch
Right.
- [40:16]
Todd McShay
Probably fewer general managers, but very few at the top feel safe. Like, oh, I'm here for the next seven, 10 years. Right. So I say, why do I say that? I say that because decisions are made like what is the, what's next year look like? But also with an eye towards what's the next three years look like.
- [40:33]
Mensch
Correct.
- [40:34]
Todd McShay
The next three years. I'm getting a 25, 26, 27 year old kid, if you will. That's still a kid. Yes, yes, but, but comes in the league more prepared mentally. More prepared from what he's endured, more prepared from the wars he's had to fight to get to where he is today, playing free and loose and, and appreciating. But, but with a chip. I'm getting a guy who's ready to go, is ready to go from a mental and a maturity standpoint as any quarterback in this class. More so.
- [41:09]
Mensch
Don't take our, don't take our word for it. Listen to the interview and don't. And not only listen to the interview about what he says because anyone could be coached up to, to, to say whatever and he hit all of the marks and, and you could say, oh, they're, they're taught to do that. Listen to the way this man speaks. Listen to the way he talks about his past, about the way he's looking forward to the future. Listen to him make a play call. Listen to him go through all of these things, the tone, the confidence, the way he goes through these things and tell me, do you. I don't think anyone can walk away from that and not say that this is a, a more mature prospect in a better position to succeed and is, is, is capable of handling adversity earlier in the early in their career because he's already proven it. I just don't know how you can watch that interview or have any. I'm assuming every discussion's like that because it didn't come across to me as, wow, he was really well prepped for this. Good job. It came across to me as like, this is the Tyler I get at 9:30 on a Tuesday morning when we're going in to watch tape. It's going to be the same Tyler when it's game time on Sunday. That's this, that's, that's what I, that's what I walked away from it thinking. So I'm interested again, don't take our word for it. If you, if you're wondering what we're talking about, just go listen to the interview.
- [42:21]
Todd McShay
Yeah. And you can get it on the YouTube page and McShay show and, and also on Fridays, the end of the Friday's podcast, whether it's Spotify, Apple or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Two and a half decades of this that it has provided me with a lot of wounds and battle scars over the years. But two and a half decades of doing this has also offered me a lot of wonderful perks and, and, and experience in this. And I've, I've learned a lot of things. You know that when a 25 year old me or a 35 year old me didn't quite realize and didn't know how to package. Two and a half decades has thankfully provided me with a filter where I can sniff through. You know, I've gotten pretty good at that. Not perfect, but pretty good. And I think a lot of people in personnel departments feel the same way. I didn't sense any.
- [43:14]
Mensch
None.
- [43:14]
Todd McShay
I just didn't like, I, I didn't. There was nothing to sniff there. So, so going back to how I started this, what's fascinating to me, man, is a lot of people want to talk about these guys. So we've got Cam and we know he's going one or two. Is the, is the assumption right now going one or two? Why all this interest in these other.
- [43:40]
Mensch
Guys when I still trying to figure it out?
- [43:44]
Todd McShay
Well, I'm, I'm. Because either Shador is going somewhere and they, and they know it.
- [43:52]
Mensch
Okay.
- [43:54]
Todd McShay
I think, I think there are some teams that are like, hm, if it ain't Cam Ward, if we're not going to be able to move up ahead of Cleveland or for Cleveland, we're not going to be able to stay home and get him. It's not the elite group we talk about every year in the draft. Maybe I'm better off taking a player at three if you're the Giants or six if you're the jets or seven if you're the Raiders or the Saints right after that. Let's get one of these really, really really good players that we know is going to be a starter for a long time in the NFL, is going to make an impact, can help us out right away. And then let's get interested, let's get involved. Sorry. With some of these second tier guys because I'm not so sure this is the one I'm getting from teams. This is. Without it being said directly, but you kind of read through the tea leaves. I'm not so sure there's a huge difference between Shador Sanders and Jackson Dart or Shador Sanders and Tyler Shuck. And I want to make this mention too because it was mentioned to me on two different occasions as well. Different people. Chip Kelly just, just took a piece of gold coal and turned it into a diamond with Will Howard. Chip Kelly has a relationship with Will Howard. Chip Kelly has, has trust in Will Howard. Chip Kelly gets to as the new offensive coordinator for the Las Vegas Raiders and the former offensive coordinator the national championship Ohio State Buckeye team. If Chip Kelly gets to pick up where he left right off with the same verbiage, knowing this guy, trusting him in the film room. Will Howard's interesting in round two. Okay. Even though, yeah, it's viral and people are getting their yucks in. The worst quarterback passing into the combine history. Like, get out of here.
- [45:50]
Mensch
Can I talk about that for a second? Because I said, I, I, I had the reaction that night on, on our show that I said that I thought that he missed an opportunity after having this great playoff run. I called his performance uneven, I think, and I think that's fair to say. And then I go on on X, Twitter, whatever we want to call it these days, change it tomorrow. And all I hear about is this is the worst throwing performance all time at the combine. And then we turn around. People are just, we wonder why, we wonder why guys don't, don't throw at the combine because people can't be reasonable and can't say to themselves, one, he didn't have as much time to prep. Two, it wasn't the receivers that he's used to throwing to. And I'm not making excuses for Will Howard. It wasn't a great performance. I don't, I do think he missed an opportunity. But you know what? He went out and threw when other guys didn't go out and throw. So now we're just, we're going to, we're going to have these two different conversations all the time where we want everyone to compete, but when they don't, they get off. They get let off the hook eventually. But If Will Howard goes out there and does his thing and doesn't have a great day, then all of a sudden we're going to rip him to shreds and say it's. And I love that one, too. These guys are like, the worst combine performance. Oh, you've watched them all. Did you run the tape on all of them? Shut up.
- [47:01]
Todd McShay
Like, that's.
- [47:02]
Mensch
Like that. Like, that's so dumb.
- [47:04]
Todd McShay
It's like.
- [47:04]
Mensch
It's just so lazy.
- [47:07]
Todd McShay
I love when you get worked up, brother. I love it.
- [47:09]
Mensch
It's just. Again, I'm not making excuses for him. It wasn't great, but that doesn't mean.
- [47:13]
Todd McShay
That it can be not great. And he could have. He had a handful. He had four or five throws that were really not good.
- [47:20]
Mensch
Okay, no, agree.
- [47:21]
Todd McShay
But. But he also was trying to throw it with anticipation, hit a spot, and the receivers didn't get there. The one throw I talked about down in the deep seam, typically had been more of a post. Post corner. Sorry. And. And so, like, whatever, man. Go watch whatever games of tape this past year and. And decide there whether you like them or not.
- [47:43]
Mensch
That's.
- [47:43]
Todd McShay
But I saw a gut. I also had an interesting conversation, too. Let me just put it up. I'm not gonna say anything about that conversation, except be careful if you're judging the. The Michigan game. Okay. For Will Howard.
- [48:02]
Mensch
I know exactly what you're talking about. That's the best. You can record it.
- [48:05]
Todd McShay
Yeah. Watch a hit he took early in that game, and maybe. Maybe he didn't. Maybe he didn't bounce back as well as everyone thought. Maybe there's a reason they were running the ball, as you know. But I'm just gonna throw that nugget out there because I think if you're looking at this, you're like, well, Will Howard didn't throw well in. In. At the combine. Will Howard had his. Had his worst performance in the biggest game against Michigan. Okay. Well, the combines, like, is 1% of.1% of how I'm going to evaluate a quarterback. And. And yes, we all thought that. But I'm saying make sure you're. Make sure you're evalu evaluating that game with some context and know that maybe. Maybe he was a little worse off in that game after taking that big hit than he even knew or thought, you know, so just leaving that out there. But The Raiders at 37 is really interesting. Yeah.
- [48:56]
Mensch
Because the connection.
- [48:57]
Todd McShay
Because the connection. Right. And I'm not saying it's only Chip. And I. Trust me, this organization has Tom Brady sitting at the Top make helping and being a big part, not helping, being a major part of the decision making, making process when it comes to a lot of things in, in including especially when it comes to quarterbacks and, and where they're going to move forward. Okay. And, and if Will Howard's not that guy for, for Tom Brady, then it ain't going to be that guy for Chip Kelly, you know.
- [49:25]
Mensch
Right.
- [49:25]
Todd McShay
I got news for everyone. The, the, the minority owner who's the goat is going to have a little bit more shots.
- [49:34]
Mensch
Yeah.
- [49:35]
Todd McShay
Who gets drafted than the offensive coordinator that just came in? Okay. But I'm just saying that's an interesting tie there. Real quickly. Giants at 34, Titans at 35. Raiders at 37. Saints at 40, jets at 42. Here's my whole point on this. If one or two is where Cam Ward goes, okay, if Cam Ward, let's just say, winds up going to, let's say Tennessee stays home and takes Abdul Carter, as you and I both believe they should do. If they don't get a great trade offer out of that number one spot. They take Abdul Carter. He goes number one. Number two, Cleveland Browns take Cam Ward. The reason I'm mentioning all this is because these conversations I'm having in Indianapolis, there's a lot more talk about Jackson Dart, Tyler Schuck and Will Howard than I expected to be. And it kind of caught me off guard a little bit. And I look at that run of the Giants at 34, the Titans at 35, the Raiders at 37, the Saints at 40 and the jets at 42. And I think to myself, huh, if they agree that there's not agree with me. I'm not putting words into your mouth. You can we have a lot of time to unpack what you think in the quarterbacks moving forward. I have a general sense, if they agree with my assessment, that there's not that big of a gap. And in fact, this past year's tape tells you maybe Tyler Shuck's going to be a better quarterback in the NFL than Shador Sanders and some people. I talked to one person who really likes J, like, really likes Jackson Dart inside the league team drafting a quarterback. Okay. If they don't think that's there, there's that big of a gap or, or they have a higher grade or an equal grade with Dart or Shuck compared to that of Shador Sanders. Sit back, wait till pick 20, 21, 22, 20 somewhere in that range, figure out the spot, move up. Yeah, you got to give away a little. But maybe that you're going to draft your franchise quarterback, or maybe they sit back and wait for him to fall. But what I'm saying to you is, if I move up to the first round, if I find that sweet spot and I go up and I get my guy, yes, it's going to cost me a draft pick later, but it's also going to give me a fifth year option. So there's value in that. Coin for coin. Yeah, I'll give up a third or I'll give up a second next year to go up and get our guy, because now I'm going to get a fifth year option. And I think this guy's got a chance to be a good quarter, a starting quarterback in this league and be our next guy. So that part's fascinating to me. I know we've gone 51 minutes now, whatever it is.
- [52:12]
Mensch
Can I add two more names really quickly, please? Two more names. Quinn Ewers, I thought had a solid workout. And then I opened up Bert Breer's article this morning. And who's he lead it with, Quinn? Yours? And maybe his angle is here's a former Texas quarterback who, you know, kind of dropped down boards. And I just. It's an interesting interview for me. Or maybe it's a Queen Years is starting to get a little more buzz, too, and he's starting to go. I mean, I'm not saying first round. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that maybe the stock's stabilizing. And. And who is the quarterback that we spent all the college football season talking about?
- [52:46]
Todd McShay
Jalen.
- [52:47]
Mensch
Jalen Milroe. And. And I'm not saying I would do it. That. I'm not saying that. But we've talked about this, and we will talk about this during the process. One team, if one team looks at Jalen Milroe and says if we could get a potential Lamar Jackson, and I think that's real rich, man. I do.
- [53:07]
Todd McShay
Jalen hurts.
- [53:08]
Mensch
Yeah, we can get a potential quarterback like that, and we're not going to take a swing in the second round of the NFL draft, man, those two names.
- [53:16]
Todd McShay
Are that how we did it? How he did it? He just won his second super bowl. And we have a great interview at the end of this podcast. I'm telling you, this was Howie in a different light. This is the Howie that I've gotten to know, that a lot of friends in the league, you know, Joe Douglas, who we played college with, who worked for Howie for a little while and like, and there's been a lot of people in our circle that have worked with him. The Howie that I've kind of known or have known secondhand as well throughout. Like, we got that version of him, which was really cool to see. So please check that out. But how we made that decision and kind of paid off, huh?
- [53:54]
Mensch
Yeah.
- [53:54]
Todd McShay
You know, and, and, and I promise you, there's some people in the league that are like, you can't coach that deep ball combined with that mobility. We got some time. We, we've got a situation where we've got some time to develop. Yeah, he was a. It was hard to watch at times at the Senior Bowl. Yeah, it was hard to watch at times this past year. I thought he was going to progress against Wisconsin. Saw that the first half of the Georgia game. Awesome. Second half wasn't that good. Never played again with a Crimson Tide helmet on. Never played again like he did in that first half of the Georgia game.
- [54:36]
Mensch
True.
- [54:36]
Todd McShay
But can't coach what he's got. Can't coach it right. And we got time to develop it, so that'll be fascinating, too. All right. Yeah, I always do it. I know, I know. And we got another show this week.
- [54:54]
Mensch
I'm just telling you.
- [54:55]
Todd McShay
I know. Let's get to a few things though.
- [54:57]
Mensch
Okay.
- [54:58]
Todd McShay
One interesting name that I heard more and I want to get to some of the guys at really? Really?
- [55:03]
Mensch
You want control of your financial future and Schwab knows that. That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, we give you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice when you need it most. You can also invest on your own and trade on thinkorswim, our powerful award winning trading platforms. Plus, you'll get low costs, transparent pricing and 247 live help. Because at Schwab, we understand it's your financial journey and we believe you should have choices in how you invest. Visit schwab.com to learn more. This episode is brought to you by Lincoln. There's something buzzy in the air. Spring is coming. The mood is shifting and new journeys are beginning. Say goodbye to the winter blues and experience the revitalizing qualities of driving a Lincoln. Everything about a Lincoln is designed to invigorate our senses. And the Lincoln Spring sales event. It's happening right now. Step outside and visit your local lincoln retailer or lincoln.com to find some seriously mood enhancing offers on current and past Lincoln models. Learn more@lincoln.com I'm ready for my life to change.
- [56:07]
Todd McShay
ABC Sunday American Idol returns.
- [56:10]
Howie Roseman
Give it your all. Good luck. Come out with a golden ticket.
- [56:13]
Todd McShay
Let's Hear it.
- [56:14]
Mensch
This is immense words. I've never seen anything like it.
- [56:19]
Todd McShay
And a new chicken chapter begins. You're going to Hollywood. Carrie Underwood joins Lionel Richie, Luke Bryant and Ryan Seacrest on American Idol.
- [56:29]
Mensch
Season premieres Sunday 87 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.
- [56:34]
Todd McShay
Now that the dust is settled, I want to get to and talk about and I, I'll open the floor to you. I went through a bunch of them in the, in the McShay report. We're not going to get to all of them. Please go read it. I know it's $4. I, I joke about it, but I, I don't take it lightly. I appreciate if you just google the McShay report, you, you'll find it right there. It's $4 for all this information. No one else is talking about it. I'm not saying no. I'm certain many other people got it. I do question why they didn't bring it up. And I think I laid out early on what the, the motives are. But that's what really happened at the combine this year. Shador Sanders did not give the vibe to a couple NFL teams that need a quarterback drafting in the top 10 that he truly, genuinely cared what their thoughts were of him. So if you, if you're interested in that kind of information, our mock drafts, draft boards, players rising, falling as we're going to get to here right now in the, in the combine. Please, please subscribe. $4 to get through this, this draft and $4 to $36 doubled down for double down this year's draft. Double down, baby. This year's draft and next year's draft, one player. I just want to throw it out there, okay? And I heard this quote two different times probably and not the exact same words, but I always love when people like they're doing me a solid, like he's going to go earlier than you think. And I'm like, how do you know what I think? I know you haven't, I know you're not getting, you're not subscribed to the McShay report. You're too busy, you know, running your draft.
- [58:10]
Mensch
You never know.
- [58:11]
Todd McShay
You don't know what, you don't know what I think. But I appreciate and I just, I kind of laugh about it internally when, when you hear the he's gonna go higher than you think. They're like, I'm telling you something right now, whether we're going to or I know of other this, this guy's going high. Tyler Booker guard, Alabama and the same, same sentiments Best interview we had here at the combine. Maybe the highest football character of any player in this draft. The story about the Alabama, things were starting to get a little sideways, not going as well. And the team meeting that he basically stood up and was like, hey, relax, like, Nick ain't here anymore. I know it's a little different, but we got a standard.
- [59:01]
Mensch
Yeah.
- [59:02]
Todd McShay
And I. And I love our coach and we're going to do great things here. But don't get it twisted just because maybe it's not like, you know, foot on throat every day. Like, we got a standard. We know what the standard is. Like, it's time to. It's time to accept personal responsibility. It's like, become like a thing of legends when you talk to scouts and people who, who know the. So, yeah, he's a guard, and that was. Yeah, he's a guard, but like the, the general manager that drafts Tyler Booker knows that they're going to get one of the elite guards in the NFL for. For a decade. And when they put in that pick, they're probably going to get booed. People aren't going to be excited about it. There's going to be all sorts of sports talk radio about it, and they're going to have to endure that, but they're also going to sleep like babies.
- [59:45]
Mensch
Right.
- [59:45]
Todd McShay
Thursday, Thursday night of the draft, getting ready for Friday, because they just. They know they just got a starter who's going to be a great player and, and is going to bring that kind of level of attention to detail and, and team leadership that you. That you look for in your locker room.
- [60:05]
Mensch
Yeah. Can I tell you a quick character background is that he was in the Under Armour All American game, the high school game. Our good friend Billy Tucker is the director of that game.
- [60:13]
Todd McShay
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep.
- [60:14]
Mensch
I texted him before we came on. I was like, tell me about. Tell me about Tyler Booker. I got. I got like, five pictures of him and Billy together. Ultimate competitor, great family, good kid. Just on and on, on. In the summer, I was at one of the Under Armour All American camps because, I mean, it's football. I'm always around it, you know, I'm sick in the head. I'm talking to Mike Foley. He's an offensive line coach for years in college. Highly respected guy. Didn't even bring up anyone. He asked me what I did, and he's like, oh, Tyler Booker. He's like, if you watch Tyler Booker play, I'm like, yeah, he's good. He's. He's gonna go early. He's like, man, that guy's. That kid was a monster. He would show up to practice for that, that all star game and just look for the best one on one reps. He was just awesome. He was trying. And to give people an idea of what the talent level was at that game, here are some of the other names. Shamar Stewart at that All Star game. Walter Nolan at that All Star game. Jihad Campbell at that All Star. I mean this is, this is the elite premium high school all star game. And Tyler Booker was the kid that both the director and the offensive line coach were like. That's the guy that's going to turn into something in the league.
- [61:21]
Todd McShay
Interesting. I. I'm getting the sense 13 Miami is. Is around maybe a tick earlier, maybe a tick later. And I'm not saying that they're going to draft him. I don't have any intel on that. But I start to look at the board and kind of the.
- [61:38]
Mensch
He goes back to the second offensive lineman off the board. Yeah, I don't think that's that crazy.
- [61:43]
Todd McShay
Well, let's get to this. Let's get to. Who do you think is the first.
- [61:47]
Mensch
I think Armand Menboo is going to be the guy after that workout. Yeah, I agree this is not where I was Simmons.
- [61:53]
Todd McShay
But I no more direction to the show. By the way. There's no go where we're going to go yesterday were the workouts for the. The offensive line. Membu. We watched some of the tape together. Two things happen. Okay. Will Campbell had a great workout. I just want, I want to start with that. Will Campbell from lsu, widely considered the top offensive lineman in the class, had a great workout. And I'm not ignoring the, I'm not reading text on the side I'm going through so I can contextualize it right now. Ran at six five, basically six six, 319 pounds. He ran a four nine eight. Awesome. You know, ran a 49832 inch vertical for that size is great. So. And looked really good in. In all and everything he did and all the drills.
- [62:38]
Mensch
Outstanding results all across the board.
- [62:40]
Todd McShay
Outstanding except for 132 and 58 inches. And listen, I would be the biggest hypocrite in the world if I if I sat here and bloke, you can't play, can't play left. Because I've literally, I've sat and I've sat down and talked to Kirk Ferenc a couple of times and we've laughed both times about how stupid it is that the people in the league are like you can't play tackle. And the guys that he's produced from that Iowa program that have gone on to play tackle in the NFL at a high level. I've also studied and evaluated some guys that were all sub 34 inches that have gone on to be awesome in the NFL at tackle. Some of those, some of those names, Joe Thomas, David Bakhtiari, Penne Sewell, Sean Slater, Jason Peters, Brian Balaga, Iowa guy, Jake Matthews. Okay, so I, I would be a hypocrite and I wouldn't be true to myself if I said, well, that just erases it for me, move them into guard. Because I don't believe that. But I'm also a realist. And the thing about drafting a player in the top 10 as a general manager is that you've such a big part of it is risk aversion. You know, you got to do risk assessments and it's a premium pick. And so when you have a premium pick somewhere talking about four to the New England Patriots, five, Jacksonville, wherever, the jets, six, Bears, 10, when you have one of those picks as a general manager, you love the tape. But you start to say, okay, well, show me somewhere. Show me another situation where this has happened. Some people, I just gave you the list. Joe Thomas, Baktiari, Sewell, Slater, Peters, Balaga, Matthews. None of them were sub 33 inches. And it wasn't like 33 and 7, 32 and 7, 8. It's 32. Like you're talking 32 and a half inch arms. So the only reasonable answer is I'm just, I'm not certain. I love his tape. I think he can. So. And is this going to be a free for all, A free fall? I should say no, I'm not saying that. But I'm saying now you're looking at it and saying, okay, there, there's a red flag here that I've got to, I've got, I got to account for. And it sucks because I love Will Campbell and I love his tape and I love the way he battled and I see the lower body explosion and I see his feet and how he moves. But I could see a scenario in which he's not the first offensive lineman off the board anymore.
- [65:21]
Mensch
I feel from listening to you and other people that this is, you know, a little bit against the grain. But I'll be honest with you. This is a, this is a lot of what we do is risk analysis in terms of looking first round guys. This is a prospects that point blank scares the out of me. And here's why he has really good tape. Sure. Is it as clean as some people are making it out? I hear all these analytics and I'm sorry, I hear all these analytics of, oh, he only allowed this many sacks or this has been pressures against SECs. And people who are throwing that out, I feel like, aren't watching. Some of them aren't watching the tape. I'm just going to be honest about that. That's what it feels like to me. Because when I watch the tape, I don't see those same numbers. It's, it's good tape. He's a really good football player. Don't get me wrong. It's not that great. It's not elite tape. If he had 34 inch arms and he was going against Joe Alt, and we brought this up before the pick for the Chargers last year played out of Notre Dame, Joe Alt's coming off the board before he is just based on the tape, not about length or any of that other stuff. So now we have a guy who I don't think is as clean on tape as other people think he is, has short arms and maybe he can do it again, rooting for him. Maybe he can do it. Maybe he can overcome this red flag. Now you're telling me he might have to move into guard. And guess what? That scares me too. And here's why. Have you seen his stance? He's 6 foot 6. He has a hard time getting down, man. The idea that we're just going to be able to kick him inside and that he's going to be awesome is not a lock for me. It's just not a lock for me. So now this is a guy who's, who is, I think, very high ceiling or a high ceiling, but a, a low floor. I'm scared, man, because you can, you, you could throw on tapes and say to yourself, look at this, man. It's really good. You're going to want that. But then you got to look at these, these potential pitfalls. What if he can't play guard and he doesn't work out at tackle and you just spent the 10th pick on him or the 13th pick on him, whatever you're talking about, he could pan out and he could make me look bad for passing on him. But we're talking about risk analysis here. We're talking about what's safe at that spot where he could potentially go. And, and, and I'm telling you right now, like there's no other way for me. I don't swear a lot on this. He scares the out of me.
- [67:47]
Todd McShay
Yeah. Great stuff.
- [67:50]
Mensch
Just being upfront about it. And, and I, and these are the.
- [67:53]
Todd McShay
Conversations that are going to happen where you get one side versus the other side inside of draft rooms. And, and to your point right there, that's the whole point. Now, if, and you got to understand how this works. If I'm a guy who's pounding the table for somebody else, now I get ammunition because all that stuff you just said is ammunition. But then you add the 32 and 5, 8 inch arms with nobody in the history that I'm aware of overcoming that, playing it, you know, that become.
- [68:25]
Mensch
That's.
- [68:25]
Todd McShay
Now it's like, all right, not saying I don't like him, not saying he's going to go on to have a great career, all that. But, but as a general manager, if I'm hearing one guy on this side, one guy on that side, I'm like, all right, well, who else is available? Whether it's at offensive line or a different position, when you're talking about a top 10 pick, I feel like I'm.
- [68:44]
Mensch
Pumping up Bert Brear all pod today. But he said that he still thinks Campbell could be a top five pick and he knows. He knows better about where a team might take him than I do.
- [68:52]
Todd McShay
I'm not saying he could be a top five pick.
- [68:55]
Mensch
I'm just telling you right now. Buyer beware. I'm a little nervous. And it's not because of his intangibles. He's an outstanding human being. It's not because of his experience. He's great. His tape is very good. It is first round tape. I'm not sure it was an early first round tape because there are some things that concern me. And then you're talking about. Listen, I've already said what I need to say about it for now.
- [69:18]
Todd McShay
At the same time, we've got, we've got Armand Membu going out at 6042, 332 pounds and running what he ran, which was a 491 running faster at.
- [69:32]
Mensch
What both of those times, by the way, Will Campbell. Outstanding time. Those are ridiculous for big man, both of them.
- [69:37]
Todd McShay
But, but at 332, that's something.
- [69:40]
Mensch
Yeah.
- [69:40]
Todd McShay
And then 34 inch vertical. So, like, if we're just talking traits and offensive linemen, like, traits are critical. Now. We're not talking about, you know, a 25 cab ride or, or 18 Uber to get around his arm length either.
- [69:56]
Mensch
You love that line.
- [69:57]
Todd McShay
I know I had to adjust it over the years because membu's only 33 and a half, but that's more in line with guys like Pete, Jason Peters and Sewell and Bakhtiari and, and Joe Thomas in the list that I went through. Okay. So that part's fascinating to me and I, I think Membu's got a real chance to be the first offensive tackle, maybe the first offensive lineman offensive off the board and could be a top 10 pick. I, I just, I don't know. I, I know people don't want to go into 40 minutes on offensive lineman, but that is, that's critical.
- [70:27]
Mensch
There is a market for it. I'm just going to say that there's a market for the offensive line stuff.
- [70:31]
Todd McShay
Yeah. And it's a, and, and it's a major one because all, all these wonderful quarterbacks we had, we talk about, we see, we see with the great, the second greatest of all time, we want to call him Patrick Mahomes. You can't protect them. Everyone's ordinary. When you can't protect them, everyone's ordinary. It doesn't matter how talented. So that's a, that's a potential shakeup in the top 10 too. So we get this Cam Ward stuff, the Shador Sanders stuff. One's kind, one's solidified and locked, one's like we got these quarterbacks in the backdrop. Now we get a shake up potentially in terms of the top offensive lineman. Lot of stuff going on. Again, subscribe to the McShay Report that we've got a bunch of guys. I spent the entire day yesterday. God bless my children, God bless Marissa. Like come over and I shouldn't, I should have my like be doing. I couldn't stop once I got started. I feel like we covered the running backs extremely well over the week. I just want to say this. When you've got guys like, like DJ Giddens from Kansas State at 212 pounds running a 4, 4, 3, 39 and a half inch vertical 10. Ted Broad jump. Those being the, the seventh best with the 4, 4, 3 and the second best at both, both the jumps. And you put in his tape and then you got guys unfortunately like Jordan James, who I love having nine, nine in the, in the broad jump and four, five, five, which is, which was tied for the worst. That nine, nine was tied for the worst of the running backs of the combine. 4, 5, 5. I'm, I'm not saying one skyrocketing one. I'm just saying things got real interesting with these running backs where they also got interested and interesting is Omarion Hampton's tape is sensational. I don't know why the buzz was not always there for Omarion Hampton if it was there for Boise State running back. And I know I'm preaching to the choir, Mitch, because when I came back and actually did the deep dive on Omarion Hampton, you had already done it and you were already there. I just sometimes get to yell out her or choose to yell out her. But. But it's real now. Like, Ginti's most likely going to be the first back off off the board. But there's definitely now two running backs coming off the board. And I would say just off the workout. I'm saying like now talking to more people. We're not on some island. Some, some Hampton island with, with two running backs coming off the board, I think there could be potentially three. But kind of the information, slash what we saw, I, I think, I think two biggest elements of the running back position is not that big a gap between the two. And it won't shock me if Omar and Hampton winds up going before Gentee. Although I do think Genty will be the first back off the board. And the second one is that Judkins workout really, whoa, turns him up. And here's the thing. Trayvon Henderson was exceptional in his own regard. They were very close in everything they did. But with his size, his power as a runner, going out and putting on the performance that he did, that, that turned some heads, man. It really did from people I'm talking to. And, and I think, like I said, like, even Lane Kiffin back in the day was like, yeah, he's an awesome back. I don't know that he's gonna have the explosion numbers. That. And I was like, okay. And I, and I believed him. I think it shocked a lot of people when Judkins came out and he, at his size and his power as a runner, 221 pounds. He had the 11 foot broad, number one broad, fourth best vertical, 38 and a half. 448 in the 40. So like there's some explosion there that I didn't, that I don't think a lot of people were, were certain was going to be there. So that was interesting. At the running back position, a couple guys that just, I, I just want to jam home and then you can take it where you want. Guys that are absolutely moving up boards. And I think you better get used to their, their names. And when we talk about day two of the draft, okay, no day one with this guy. I had a personnel person that I trust, high ranking, said, I think you need to start Talking about Mad Max in the first round. Maxwell Hairston, cornerback. And I know men. You love him, too. Zone. Lot of zone guy. Lot of zone coverage. Tape at Kentucky. But. But when he turns and runs and covers Manto man, he's.
- [75:21]
Mensch
He's got man traits.
- [75:22]
Todd McShay
Yeah, he's got man traits. Okay, 511 and change 183 pounds. Not a great tackler. We'll just leave it there. He can improve as a tackler. You can excuse it away with the 50 solo tackles or 55, whatever it was a year before, as you mentioned. You can excuse it away with the shoulder, but I've seen when everything's right and, and he's got to improve in that area. But the most important parts are, can you cover? Can you. Can you allow us to be multiple in our scheme? Wait, this guy can play zone and man just as well. And he's got the speed. He ran a 4, 2, 8, man. Fastest time in the combine. 4 to 8.
- [75:59]
Mensch
Three pitch shows up on tape.
- [76:01]
Todd McShay
Shows three pick sixes ball Hawk. He's not getting out of the first round, I don't think. No.
- [76:08]
Mensch
You know, here's the thing. And I, and I said it to you over there. What bothered me about him was his frame. And I was. And I said, dude, he's too small. He's too small. And so when I do that, I try to check myself a little bit and look at, you know, similar corners. Guess who I love as me a potentially top 10 pick, Jade Baron. And all of a sudden, he's not too small, but. But Max Harrison is. So when you look at them, they're very similar frames. Now, Baron's a better player and Baron's a better.
- [76:37]
Todd McShay
And all the 183 for. 183 for. For Mad Max, for Maxwell Hairston versus Baron was 194.
- [76:47]
Mensch
And I think Harrison's a little longer, but whatever. They're in the same camp in terms of those frames. So I'm looking at that. I'm like, you're willing to take Baron as a potential top 10 top 12 pick, but not Harrison in the first round. And that you kind of changed my outlook. And I'm like, this is crazy. This kid could cover. He's definitely going to go in the first round.
- [77:04]
Todd McShay
I think some other guys that. I think that there's going to be a little. There's going to be a. A C shift, if you will. I, I said it before the combine started. I just, I can't put my full stamp on Ted McMillan from Arizona. He did not work out there. Nothing has changed with his evaluation. Really good player. If things work out well and he develops, he's going to be kind of a Drake London type. And Drake London in year two had over a thousand receiving yards. Don't see the same dog, don't see the same consistency, don't see the same attention to detail that I saw in Drake coming out. Doesn't mean we're not going to see that in the NFL. Matthew Golden's my wide receiver one and I'm done. I'm done.
- [77:47]
Mensch
I'm okay with that.
- [77:49]
Todd McShay
Still in the same bucket. Still in the same cluster, but tier, whatever you want to call it. Matthew Golden's my number. My number one receiver in this class ran a 429-second- fastest time in the. In the entire class and fastest of all the receivers. You add that to the. The crisp route running. You add that to the ability to adjust the ball and some of the catches that he made. You add that to showing up big in big games. When he finally became the guy at Texas, I don't know what took them so long, but he finally became the focus you could see early in games. It wasn't about trying to feed Isaiah Bond. It was about Matthew golden, who had transferred in from Houston. He can be both the consistently reliable player that a quarterback is looking for because of his routes, ability to separate ball skills and a vertical weapon. Yeah, I'm taking that guy. Number two, Jalen Noel, is everything I hoped he had in terms of a workout. He's in my top five receivers. He. I don't think he's gonna last terribly long in the second round. Some people see his size and they're like, oh, he's a nice slot. Put him in the third. And his teammate had an awesome workout, too. And I think Higgins, Jaden Higgins could wind up maybe going a little bit ahead of him. One guy's an X, the other's a Z or even a slot, however you want to play him. Different players, but he is a special route runner. And he had a vertical jump of 41112 inches. And he had a broad jump of 11 2. Both best in class. Jaylen Noel, best in class. And then I want to go back to his tape, go check out McShay13 on X. Look at some of the clips that I shared. It's like a drunken sailor that night, like just ripping off clips, him working in and out of zones, him setting up dbs and breaking the separation he creates. I love those Iowa State receivers. Another one that had an awesome Workout Jalen Noel. I'm just. Sorry, Jalen. I just said Jalen Lane, the other Jalen. Jalen Lane. Man, you talk about a football character. Grinding it out. Talk about when you have conversations about special teams.
- [80:06]
Mensch
Little buzz there around conversations.
- [80:09]
Todd McShay
Yep, yep. Not only did he tie for the third fastest 40 time at 4,3,4 and he's take a step back. Decorated return specialist, special teams maven, some big plays at special teams throughout his career. So you know, right away I'm getting contribution from this guy as a receiver developed over his career. I just, I love what I've heard about him. Transfer from Virginia Tech, from Middle Tennessee State. Leader of. Not a big passing game. Right. Let's put it that way. Not a proficient passing game. But still the last two years you combine him, he was the leader of the receivers for, for the Hokies. 434. I mentioned third fastest of the of the group. Third fastest 10 yard split. So he get, he heats it up fast. 1, 5 0. He's only 191 pounds. 5950-965-9 and a half. Just over or two thirds, which is.
- [81:08]
Mensch
Why he won't go.
- [81:09]
Todd McShay
But 40 inch vertical, 11 foot broad, short shuttle. He did. He was one of what? I wrote it down here somewhere.
- [81:17]
Mensch
Only him and Noel put up those numbers. Sub 4, 4, 11 foot broad and 40 inch verticals.
- [81:24]
Todd McShay
He had top three results among the wide receivers in all these things. Vertical jump, broad jump, short shuttle and three cone. And I wrote down somewhere, I don't know if it's here. He was one of like four or five guys and all like the 40 something wide receivers that actually did everything. You know what that does? It matches exactly what I heard about his competitiveness. So Jaylen Lane second. I'm getting a lot of the same feelings and vibes with this guy that I got when Terry McLaren came out of Ohio State. When I went to that pro day to see a bunch of other stars, bosa bunch of other guys.
- [82:01]
Mensch
Terry McLaren's a lot bigger though, right?
- [82:04]
Todd McShay
Yes. But I'm saying, I'm saying the conversations I had with people at Ohio State and some of the scouts I talked to there when I wanted to talk about the stars that ESPN sent me to go do and the wide receivers that are going the first round. Okay. Everyone wanted to talk about McLaren. It's kind of like that with Lane. People are going out of their way. That's it.
- [82:28]
Mensch
Yeah. All right.
- [82:29]
Todd McShay
That's it. We got you enough.
- [82:31]
Mensch
You. Yeah. You always have to empty the clip here. I'M going to say two things. I'm going to be done in about 30 seconds. That's Jaden Higgins. Jaden Higgins, the receiver from Iowa State. Absolutely. Going in the first round. Now second. I don't know when Devin Neal is going to go, but I can be almost certain that it's going to be too late. And I know that he ran a 4, 5, 8. He's the guy that we're going to look at.
- [82:51]
Todd McShay
Kansas running back.
- [82:53]
Mensch
Kansas running back Devin Neal, who will be the player. We'll look back and I'll say to you, man, yeah, Devin Neal ran. Yeah. Remember Dev Neal ran a 4, 5, 8. We all dropped him.
- [83:01]
Todd McShay
Was it Devin Singleton, was it Singleton who ran poorly?
- [83:05]
Mensch
I don't know. I mean, there's a bunch of them that have run in the four fives that have turned into damn good backs, man.
- [83:09]
Todd McShay
Oh, no question, no question.
- [83:11]
Mensch
I just, I think people are going to drop them and it's going to be a, a mistake.
- [83:15]
Todd McShay
We've gone way too long. You're the best in the business, co host, because. Because of what you just did. You just dropped two bombs in there at the very end. You did it in 30 seconds while I took an hour, 21 minutes and 12 seconds or whatever it is. I'm looking at the screen now to get to stuff that probably we could have done 40 minutes. But I hope everyone enjoyed the show. We appreciate your support. Up next, awesome interview with Howie Roseman. Super bowl winning, two time super bowl winning general manager and a guy who everyone was like, he's not a football guy, never played ball in college, doesn't know what he's doing. Well, he clearly is doing something right and he opened up in this interview. I hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. Thanks for watching. We'll be back on Thursday morning. That's going to be the schedule. Monday afternoons. Thursday when you wake up, first thing, we're going to be right There, your inbox, YouTube, Spotify, Apple, and we'll, we'll be consistent with that through the draft. So appreciate you and please enjoy this interview with Howie Rose. Howie, we appreciate it, man. Congratulations.
- [84:19]
Howie Roseman
Thank you.
- [84:19]
Todd McShay
Take me through this, right? Like, I've never won a national championship, never won a Super Bowl. Work in this business. We're all competitive people. When the confetti comes down, knowing everything that's gone into it and that this is your baby, right? Like all the work and everything you've put in, all the years and the struggles and when it comes down, you're holding the trophy Is it. Is it there on the stains, on the. On the field? Is it in the. On the stage? Is it back in. In the. Under the, you know, the bowels of the stadium? When you have that moment where you're like, I don't know, what is it? Is it gratitude? Is it adrenaline? Like, what. Take us through that.
- [84:57]
Howie Roseman
I think it's all of those. But I think I got to go back and. And you'll love this because it's your old teammate, you know, so. But in 2017, we were on our way to Minnesota, and I said something to Joe. I said, when? If we win this game, I said, you're not gonna find me for a month. You know, I'm gonna be on a bender. I'm gonna be celebrating. It's gonna be unbelievable. And then that moment, I think, was a little different than this. And it was the first one and had been part of teams that have lost five championship games, four championship games, and a Super Bowl. And, you know, we won that really on the last play. I mean, Tom still got the ball in his hand. Down eight, and the ball's in the air. I can't find it. You know, it looks like someone caught it, but actually hit the ground. And then it's just like. It's almost partly relief, definitely joy. But it's. It's almost like, man, you got one. Right, right? And so we come back from Minnesota, Monday, Tuesday, it's like 9:30. Like, where. Where's Joey? You know, I call him. I go, where are you, bro? And he goes, I'm having breakfast with my family. I'm like, get your ass in here. We're six weeks behind everyone. We're gonna get our ass kicked. And he goes, hey. And I go, what's up? He goes, what happened to the month bender? What happened. What happened to, like this? All I did, I said, we gotta get another one.
- [86:16]
Todd McShay
Our good friend Joe Douglas, that sounds like him. And.
- [86:18]
Howie Roseman
And so I think for me, the first is this PG rate or PG 13. So I'd say, like, the first ones. Almost like. Can I say this? Can we delete this? Is this live? You don't know what I'm saying.
- [86:30]
Todd McShay
You don't know the best part.
- [86:32]
Mensch
You can be you.
- [86:33]
Howie Roseman
It's almost like the first time you have sex, you're so glad. Glad you had sex. It's not even the quality of it. The second time. The second time, it's like, wow, I could actually have fun and enjoy this. And so I would say, and Bob just had sex for his first time. A couple weeks ago. So. So I think that, you know, maybe he could talk about the. The first time again. But I think that this one, now the game was a little different, you know, and we're fortunate about that. But I think this one, it would. There was. It was more fun. It was like less of a relief, less of like, just like, all right, I got one. Like, I can check that box off. And more like, let's enjoy it. Let's have fun understanding a little bit better how to celebrate it. And so, you know, I think because of the way the game was, it was. It was easier to kind of go down and celebrate with the players and that kind confetti when that confetti falls. And it's, I think, a little different than the championship games when that confetti falls and, you know, you're the last team standing. That's the only thing you strive for going forward. And it's like it used to be when I was a gm. Used be, we won the division, we made the playoffs. All right, probably get another year on our contract. Great. You know, and then once you feel that, it's almost like this is the only way I can truly, truly feel good about a season and, and. And being. Doing that with people you actually genuinely care about, players, coaches, staff, ownership, and then obviously your family and friends. Special.
- [88:07]
Todd McShay
You've endured some man. Like, it's been a long road for you, and I've always respected that about you. Like, you've gone your own path. I mean, you look at like front office intern, return salary cap, council, director of football administration to get where you were. When you look back on all of it, what was it about the pet. Your path now, that becomes a strength over time, right? At first you're kind of trying to overcome it and trying to move on and become where you are now, but then it becomes part of your DNA and part of what makes you unique and what makes. Makes you special. What is it about your path that. That really helped you?
- [88:47]
Howie Roseman
Well, I had an incredible passion for football since I can remember. It was always kind of like this unusual obsession with football, and I always kind of wanted to do this, and no one would really give me the opportunity, you know, because I obviously didn't play in college. And so I went to Florida. I tried to go work for the football program there. I loved evaluating players. Every draft cycle from the time of I was 8 years old, I'd write up players, I'd watch the draft, I'd watch games, I'd write them up and. And So I had this. Like, this is what I'm going to do. This is what I was meant to do. And nobody really encouraged that. I just kind of felt that. So Florida. Nobody gave me a chance. I kept writing letters. 32 teams, you know, like, I'm sure, like, you. You did. We all did. And. But we. We had to write the letters, you know, like, it's different now than sending. Like, someone sends me. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not going to respond to your email, my man, but. And then I went to law school because the Cap had just started, and basically Mike Tannenbaum, in 1996, long time ago, basically said to me, hey, it's gonna be hard for you to get a scouting job, you know? And I said, but I like scouting. I like evaluating players. He goes, have you thought about Cap? And I said, yeah, I had. It's not kind of what I wanted to do. And he said, well, there's not a lot of guys doing it. So I went to law school just to get. Get a job in the NFL. And then my first interview was with the jets, and it was a scouting job. I ended up not getting it, but they kind of referred me to the Eagles, who I'd sent so many letters to, and they. I basically said, like, yeah, you know, Cap, interesting, but I want to evaluate players. Like, I want to get into the scouting side of it. And they told me. And Andy had just got there and Joe Banner, and they said, hey, you do this job well, and we'll expand your role. And I was fortunate to get there at a time that they were just starting to have success. Andy had just gotten there, and we had unbelievable staff. I mean, you look around, I mean, we had dinner last night with a bunch of them. It was. Tom Hacker was our gm, you know, may rest in peace. And this guy, I. I'd watch tape. He wasn't like, stop watching tape. He'd be like, all right, what'd you think? You know, or, here's some tips. And it was the whole staff, and it was Jason Light and Ryan Grigson and Matt Russell, and, you know, now Spy Tech came along. Now he's a gm. And Johnson, I mean, all this group of people, we're all kind of the same age. And with Andy and his staff, which, what, eight or nine of them ended up becoming head coaches, and we're winning, and. And it was just this, like, inclusive, like, hey, if you can help, if you can find some guys, you can do it. If you do your job well, we'll Give you more, and then if you do that job well, we'll give you more. And so they let me do pro guys. And then, you know, Coach Reed, and I'll never forget this, he said, listen, if you ever want to be a GM for me, you're going to go on the road. I was like, man, I got to go on the road and leave my. This is 2007, 2008, and I had done a couple school calls, and it was unbelievable advice, because for me to be able to go to our scouts and say, hey, I went to 30, 35 schools. I know what you're going through, you know, as opposed to just like, yeah, just go find us the players, you know, and I. I don't want to hear your horror stories. To be able to go through it, it was so smart. I mean, this is why Andy's unbelievable. And so to have that kind of backing and. And that organization. And then. So it was really kind of. And I got a point to this. It was really like. It was just arrow up, you know, like, everything was going well. I kept getting promoted, promoted, and I was working with people, whether it was Joe's present team, Jeffrey, obviously the owner, Andy, who had been there, and we all have been together. And then when I became GM for Andy, and. And still, obviously him and the greatness of him, and then he leaves. Right. You know, and that year was tough. His son died. It was really tough on all of us.
- [92:30]
Todd McShay
And.
- [92:30]
Howie Roseman
And he left, and he needed a fresh start. And. And then it was like, all right, like, I had worked with all these people who had really kind of become like family. Now we have to go find a head coach for the first time. And it was like, all right, well, what are we looking for? You're replacing this legend. Legend, maybe the greatest coach of all time, you know, certainly in the top three, in my opinion. And so it's like, all right, let's just go find someone innovative, someone dynamic, you know, none of like, how are they going to interact with the rest of the. The building? How are they going to interact with me? How are they going to treat everything? It's just like, results, results, results, results, results. And I paid for that with my job.
- [93:07]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [93:08]
Howie Roseman
You know, and. And it was the first time that it really was like, wait, it's not really going well, you know, and. And teams were okay. We won 10 games the. Both years that I was with Coach Kelly, but it was all of a sudden, like, different visions, different philosophies, recipes, and it was like I was out and that adversity, I think, to me was the best thing that could happen to me. Because as a young gm and things going your way and then publicly kind of embarrassed and having to reset and to kind of get back to, like.
- [93:40]
Todd McShay
But what did you, what did you lean on then? Like, that's, that's a. You lost your dream job.
- [93:46]
Howie Roseman
Yeah.
- [93:46]
Todd McShay
You're like, hey, move on out. And, and that takes, like, a certain level of, like, mental strength. Like, we've all, like, I just lost a job a year and a half ago. I just got laid off. Like, anyone who's ambitious in the world has, has failures.
- [94:00]
Howie Roseman
Right? You have to have failures.
- [94:01]
Todd McShay
But what did you lean on personally?
- [94:03]
Howie Roseman
Well, one, it, it was almost like, all right, I had this opportunity, it didn't work, no matter how much time. And I, I didn't really do it the way I wanted to. I kind of like, I, I, I, I didn't. The values that I thought that I had to run a team, I didn't reflect them. And so I said, you know, I'll probably not get an opportunity again. They're so hard to come by. But at the time, I was still employed by the Eagles, you know, because we weren't losing, you know, so I was still employed. And Jeffrey let me go meet with people and talk to people, and it was unbelievable. And it really, someday, like, I should write a book about that year of just the people that I med and Inside Sports, outside sports, Fortune 500 companies, the best GMs in the world, you know, RC Buford, you know, I'm in London speaking at conference with him, and me and him are on a train. And he said this, and this is the best thing I learned in a year. I freaking traveled all over the world and on this one train ride, and RC's my buddy still. And we're on a train, and we're with another guy who was GM of a European soccer team. And you're going to Manchester, go visit Manchester United. After he spoke at a conference. And we were supposed to get on a train, and R.C. and I were hungry, so we, like, went get something to eat. His diabetes. Like, I need something, you know, and the other guy stayed. And all of a sudden we come back, we can't find him. We look on the board. It's like, train to Manchester, leaving now. And so me and him are, like, running with our bags. Like, I think, like, oj. And that hurts. Commercial. And so we go and we hop on the train and we get there, and RC's like, Mike, we're on the train. Where are you sitting? And he's like, the train's leaves in 20 minutes. And he's like, oh, we're on. We'll meet you there. You know, So I go, this awesome rc. I really wanted to grab you and talk to you. Like, I was like, grab my notebook. And I'm like, so tell me how you build the team. He's like, what? Like what you were looking for in players? And he's like, I don't think that's it, Howie. I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, well, it was always my dream to be a gm, you know, I was. Pop was an assistant coach. He gets promoted, and. And he's basically, I want you to be a gm. I got to do this press conference. We're firing Bob Hill. And so we go upstairs and I got all my notes, and I'm like, this is how we want to build a team. And Pops like, all right. He's like, this is how we're going to do it. He's like, take my notebook. What's the first thing? He goes, well, the first thing we're going to do, we're going to hire people that are really good at their jobs, that we love being around that are really good people. I go, great. What's number two? And he goes, that's it.
- [96:23]
Todd McShay
Interesting.
- [96:23]
Mensch
Yeah.
- [96:24]
Howie Roseman
And my heart stopped, and I went, that's it. That's it. Not that hard. I have really good people you like being around who are good at their jobs. Boom.
- [96:36]
Mensch
Does that affect how you evaluate players, too? Don't just look at talent.
- [96:41]
Howie Roseman
I mean, it's easy to make excuses for guys. So it's easy for us to go, you know, on a case by case basis basis, go, oh, I think we can get this guy. So for us, we have some objective things that I can't. Oh, I can't even overrule, you know, like. And there. Ares. But, you know, for one, like, violence against women, like, they're. It's just. It's just not for us. You know, it doesn't mean. So it's like, I won't even watch them. I don't want to. I don't even want to talk about it. It just is deal breakers for us. So I can't go, but he's really good, and he did it 10 years ago, and he learned from it. It just doesn't work work for us. So I want to be able. I got four kids. I want them to be able to walk in the locker room and Me not have to go just skip over that.
- [97:22]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [97:23]
Howie Roseman
Now, that doesn't mean we got perfect guys. I mean, they're from different backgrounds. You know, some guys pop off more than others. Our head coach does that, you know, sometimes he's my guy, I love him. But I think for us, like having good people, having people that you can rally around, you know, And I think our two championship teams really had really good people. And so now it's like, you can't tell me that we can't win with good people. Like, we can't be at the top of the mountain with good people. And it's the same off the field.
- [97:51]
Todd McShay
You know, it's interesting. Joe, Joe Douglas, who you were referring to before, he called me when he, when he got the jets job as the general manager and he said he just seen what I was up to and all that. But he's. I was like, what sort? So what's, what's the plan? He's like, the only thing I care about right now is finding good people that I trust that are going to be. I want to be around every day that want to all be together. And that's, that's my mission right now, you know, so it's interesting to hear.
- [98:20]
Howie Roseman
Joe and I feel like this is like a, you know, or a constant shout outs to Joe, which he deserves. But, you know, in 2015, when I was down and out, he called me and he did something for me. And I told him, I said, you didn't have to do this for me. I will never forget it. If I ever get a job again, you're my first hire. And I begged Ryan Pace, I said, and he said, no, not before the draft. And I remember telling Jeffrey, you know, like, we gotta wait for this guy. This guy's a special guy and because of what kind of person he is.
- [98:50]
Todd McShay
Yeah, but I think that's, I mean, a lot of people out there. Here we are at the combine, right? We've got heights and weights and wingspans 40 times and all these things that people are going to be crunching, going mad over. But at the end of the day, to hear from the super bowl winning general manager that literally nothing's more important than surrounding yourself with good people.
- [99:12]
Howie Roseman
Like now I use this line too, like, they better be talented. The best person I've ever met is my wife and I don't want her playing linebacker for us either, you know, so, like, they better be talented good people. You know, there's no doubt about. So some of this does, does matter, but it is to have those, because we are going to have adversity, whether you and I have it with our jobs and how it affects our life or during the course of the season. I mean, we were 2 and 2. We went into the bye week coming off of 1 and 6. So what were you, 3 and 8 over our last 11 games. And everyone was burying us. And that week, that bye week, everyone got together and said, all right, we have too good of a team. We have too many good people. How are we fixing it? And it wasn't like, your fault, your fault, your fault. It was like, we gotta fix this. Yeah, it's too good of an opportunity. And I think that if you. If you don't have the right people, that comes into finger pointing and that comes into. It ain't my fault. You know, you gotta fix this. You gotta fix this. And when I look back at. At our season, that moment, and. And you go into this, and you know this, you go into the season, you go week five by, oh, gosh, it's freaking. Still warm and freaking filling.
- [100:23]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [100:24]
Howie Roseman
Even if I wanted to go away, it's going to be the same weather wherever I go away. Like, this stinks, you know, it was the best thing that happened to us.
- [100:30]
Todd McShay
I've studied your rosters for a long time. This is the first time. Part of the reason I love this new gig is I can actually delve into things and have the time to do it and talk to an audience that really, like, cares about more than just the quarterbacks and top 10 prospects. Right. So I've studied your rosters and other organizations as well. There are some trends that I find that are fairly obvious, and I don't want to get in the weeds of all of it, but obviously, like the quarterback, the number of quarterbacks going back to your first draft was a Kafka, right? The first draft, and then it was three. Foles, everyone. Deaf Foles. Matt Barkley, Wentz, Clayton Thorson, Jalen Hurts, Tanner McKee. Even when you've got guys and you've got your guy, you're still drafting them every couple, every three years. Right. I'm curious, just philosophically, is that just a Bill Walsh thing or is that like, what's. What value do you see in that?
- [101:23]
Howie Roseman
Well, I think sometimes people forget, you know, Andy's with Green Bay, with Ron, and he. He could be good at anything in football. He. He'd be an unbelievable. I mean, he was an unbelievable gm, you know, and so, you know, he spent a lot of time with Ron when he was the Position coach there. And so a lot of the things Ron was, let's draft quarterback every year. And in Philly we try to do that with him. You know, we drafted Kevin Cobb in 2007 when Donovan and was still in the problem of his career. You know, we had flipped guys, you know, we had, we had AJ Feely. We traded to Minnesota for a second round pick. Like it was always coming, you know, our back. No, no team has benefited from the backup quarterback position over the last 25 years more than the Philadelphia Eagles. Yeah, absolutely no team. And so it was always like, you can't have enough. And, and if you lose your starter now your third, your backup now he's one snap away. So like building that depth and how do you do that? Well, they're hard to find, so if you like one, you better draft one. And you know, it's funny with Kafka, I remember like he played at Minnesota. They were playing in the old Metro dome in, in 2010, and I went to Northwestern like the next week and he like threw for 230 and ran for like 120. And I'm like, oh my God, this guy would get to get this guy. You know, like I. And then, you know, like three years later and he's like, I think he'll be a better coach. You know, he's like, it's okay, Roseman, you know, but I think he'll be a better coach, you know, you know, he's heck of a coach, Smarter, smart as hell. But I think you also got to be willing to understand, like it's such an important position that you can't beat yourself up if you swing and miss because if even you go one for five, you're kicking, killing it, killing it, killing it. So it, it's always been, you know, for, for us, a philosophy. You can't force it now if there's nobody like you just don't take one, just take one. But it's always been something and I think it really goes back to Ron, to Andy, to kind of how we were with it.
- [103:28]
Mensch
Could you take me back to last year's draft? Did you go into that the first night thinking that you were going to.
- [103:33]
Todd McShay
Get Quinon Mitchell, where you got him.
- [103:35]
Mensch
And the second night, could Cooper DeJean. Did you have any idea that they would, they would last that long?
- [103:41]
Howie Roseman
No, I, I don't think that there was, there was any scenario where we thought Q would be there, where we were picking 22. I think that once the offensive players started falling and we got to like, 16 or 17. And we kind of saw the way the board was. It was like, it's going to be a good spot for us and what we need.
- [104:01]
Mensch
And when did you start to get excited?
- [104:03]
Howie Roseman
Well, I remember Jeff was like, do you want to move up? And I said, I think we're going to be all right. And he goes, what? You're not moving up? And I said, no, I. I think we're going to be all right. Now did I. I was pretty. You just looked at the teams in that range and you said, maybe one, maybe two takes a corner. Maybe someone trades up, but I think we're going to be all right. And. And certainly in a lot of the scenarios we did, some of them came down to Coop being there at 22 and being able to. So, you know, in this business, like any business, you gotta get a little lucky. For sure. Luck plays a part in it. And the way that the draft went from an offense perspective, obviously kind of fit what we needed at the time.
- [104:44]
Todd McShay
You've spent an unbelievably disproportionate number of premium picks on defensive players. I used to have conversations with Bill Paul. He always went back to, you've got Peyton and quarterbacks. Quarterbacks can make up for sins of 10 other players. But if you got your quarterback, you can trust him to elevate everyone on that side of the ball. You can't do a whole lot for the defensive side. So the philosophy was, when you get that guy, make sure you're focusing a lot of capital on the defensive side. Obviously, you didn't get that from Bill Polian, but I'm saying, you guys, as much as any team in the league over the last several years. Not last several. Go back to 2010. Your first draft pick was Brandon Graham. In fact, we talked about that half the year that for. I think your first five picks were defensive players and then defensive lineman specifically. Give me, like, what's the philosophy? What's your mindset? What are your reasons?
- [105:43]
Howie Roseman
Bill, obviously tremendous disrespect for him. And I'm thinking, well, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Ed James, Tariq Len, Saturday. I'm not sure he's really telling you the truth right there. Like, I'm looking at that now. Their addresses are pretty freaking good, too, you know, so. But I. I think that at the end of the day, if you.
- [106:02]
Todd McShay
I'm not gonna sit there and question.
- [106:03]
Howie Roseman
No, no, no, no.
- [106:04]
Mensch
Sure.
- [106:04]
Howie Roseman
Hall of Fame. But I think that when. What. How I would translate that is when you have an offense that is capable of Scoring points in bunches. You're going to be playing from ahead from a lot. So how can you close games? How can you close games? And so there are certain points of the defense that help you close games. Front end, back end of defense and that help you when it's playoff time. And so I think that that's probably how I translate to kind of what he was saying, which is kind of what we think it's like, all right, if you, you have this high powered offense, you have an opportunity to get the lead. How do you keep the lead is obviously, you know, teams are going to have to be one dimensional. So you have to be able to pressure the quarterback, you have to be able to defend the pass. It's going to be hard when teams are down 2, 3 scores to come back with the running game.
- [106:53]
Todd McShay
Last thing for you. I know you got to run and I appreciate your time, I truly do. I know, you know, you're being ripped all over the place this week, but the most important question, so it's draft week and you're getting ready and prepared. You've got your board ready and everything. Who's in charge of the spread? Like, how. I know you delegate some things, but you're, you're in control of every. Who's the food?
- [107:16]
Howie Roseman
Do you know this about.
- [107:17]
Todd McShay
No, I swear to God I don't.
- [107:20]
Howie Roseman
I think that like Dom's over here, you know, freaking huge part of Philly, you know, and Ryan Grixon said this to me a long time ago. He, he said, I think the reason you like Lyman so much is because you think you can eat like a lot. Like, I have this passion for food that it's like, good.
- [107:39]
Todd McShay
I was worried rival. I was worried about my passion for football.
- [107:42]
Howie Roseman
And it's like, that's a lot of my. The reason I got close to Coach Reed was because we talk food all the time. In fact, when I'm here every year, no matter, matter what my job has been, there are two places I bring, I bring to co treat. We talk about food all the time. In, in fact, we went to Emeralds in 2012. We had I with some. Maybe the GM was an Eagles fan and they put us in the back and I was sick and he was like, roseman, you would love this dish. I love food. So that spread that, that weekend is like, I'm starting to like lick my lips at Indian. We get good food in Philly.
- [108:23]
Todd McShay
So, so the.
- [108:24]
Howie Roseman
But where's this coming from?
- [108:25]
Todd McShay
I, I, I'm just always curious because I feel like some people, some GMs we're going to talk to, it's like, yeah, well, I delegate to this. Like, the people I really want to get to know more and spend time with are people who love food, care about food.
- [108:37]
Howie Roseman
Yeah.
- [108:37]
Todd McShay
In life. And so, like, if you don't care about what's going on with your food and draft weekend, like, we can have a business relationship, but I don't think I ever want to.
- [108:45]
Howie Roseman
You know what's interesting, Todd? I will say this. I, I, I have a lot of flaws. One of them is I'm extremely judgmental. So, like, if I'm going to a school, call, like, it's, it's November, it's drear in Philly. I'm probably going to California or Florida. You know, be honest.
- [109:00]
Todd McShay
Right.
- [109:00]
Howie Roseman
But I will always say to our, give me a restaurant. Give me a restaurant. And if they can't give me a good restaurant, I will forever judge them.
- [109:07]
Todd McShay
Yes.
- [109:07]
Howie Roseman
We go to a city that, on the road that one of our scouts lives in. I say, give me a restaurant. They, some of them, they won't even give it to me anymore. They're like, I don't want to be judged. I don't want to be judged. And it's so important. If you're gonna tell me if you're gonna stand on the table for a restaurant, you better. How do I feel about food and restaurants? It's, it's, it's literally like that anymore. When we go on the road, who Eve? It's just like, just tell us where we're going.
- [109:35]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [109:35]
Howie Roseman
Because I don't want to do it.
- [109:36]
Todd McShay
I appreciate your time, man. Really do.
- [109:38]
Howie Roseman
Thanks, guys. Appreciate it.
- [109:40]
Todd McShay
Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 + and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnecticut or visit mdgambling help.org In Maryland, Hope is here. Visit Gambling Helpline ma.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 247 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York SA.