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The McShay Show
Scouting Caleb Downs: Why the Ohio State Safety Might Be the Best Player in the 2026 Draft
00:56:55
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- [00:00]
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- [00:52]
Todd McShay
Ronnie Lott, Sean Taylor, Troy Palomalu, Ed Reed. Those are the names, right, that come up when you start to have the conversation of best safeties in NFL history. So Ohio State's Caleb Downs is he next up? We're going to deep dive into his tape today. Just 305 days until the NFL draft meant. You good?
- [01:13]
Steve Mensch
I'm good, man.
- [01:14]
Todd McShay
Yeah, you are, brother. Hit it. I always got yelled at for thanking everyone, but thank you for being here. Thanks for joining us. It's the summer. There's a lot to do. There's swimming, there's hiking, there's biking, there's all sorts of fun stuff. But taking 30, 40, 50 minutes, however long I ramble today and Bench tries to keep me in check of your time to spend with us. We appreciate. So Caleb Downs we're gonna get to in a second. Right. And I think it's important off the top to, to note we just kind of, I don't want to say finished. We, we, we've gotten to the point where we feel like, all right, let's, let's kind of put a pause on the quarterbacks. We've done a bunch of them. We started with Arch Manning in the limited catalog. We did Cade Club Nick, Lenore Sellers, both from the state of South Carolina. We did Drew Aller, John Matier, Garrett Nussmeier. Garrett Nussmeier in the very beginning. Yep. And. And so on and so forth. Oh, and, and, and, and Sam Levitt, Arizona State. So we've gotten to a lot of the top quarterback prospects, guys that we think could be in 2026, guys that maybe return and go are in the 2027 NFL Draft class. But we're now kind of going to just break off from the quarterbacks and hit a few different top prospects at positions, and it will allow us to kind of give a little appetizer, just a little sneak peek into maybe some of the other players at those positions. So honestly, from what I saw in college football last year and, and just studying a little bit of, of, of Caleb Downs, actually studying a lot of them, but unintentionally with the eight or nine guys that were, were drafted from that Ohio State defense from a year ago, saw a lot of them. Right. And to me, I think he might be the best prospect in the class. But we're going to get to that in a minute. But that's the why behind it. We're going to do this with Jeremiah Love at the running back position, get into some of the running backs later this week, and we'll kind of bounce around for the next few weeks as people are enjoying their late June, July in the summer, until we start really ramping things up in August, getting ready for the college football season and NFL season, sharing some, some of our draft rankings and that appropriate, appropriately, early mock draft. I just wanted to get to this Mench. I. Okay. You know, you know how I am. I kind of bounce around sometimes, right? Yes. I've seen a few things on threads on X about Brian D and Jackson Dart and how Brian's really encouraged him. Granted, it's like, you know, mini camps and, but like obviously getting to spend quality time knowing he's your quarterback, not as a pro, one of many quarterback and prospects at any position, but like he's mine now. He's, he's in the building. He's got our, he's got our playbook, you know, like, and, and how encouraged he's been. Now coaches aren't going to come out and be like, we made a mistake, man. Shouldn't have traded up, got the wrong guy in June. Probably will never say that, but especially in June after the April, April draft. But it seems like people are kind of reporting and getting. Go ahead.
- [04:49]
Steve Mensch
You also hear things too where you, you hear stories about guys talking about players looking back and saying, we knew we had something in minicamp. People are always like, you know, they're overblowing it. But then you hear stories of GMs talking about players and saying, as soon as he got in the building, we had a feeling that we had made the right decision or we had made the wrong decision. If they felt like they made the wrong decision at this point, they're not going to come out and say we got the wrong guy, but they're not going to come out and endorse them either.
- [05:13]
Todd McShay
So it got me thinking, when are we going to see Jackson Dart starting game?
- [05:19]
Steve Mensch
Okay.
- [05:20]
Todd McShay
I'm like, I'm not normally this guy. I'm not normally this guy. And I'm, you know, like, you're turning.
- [05:25]
Steve Mensch
Into this guy a little bit lately, and I like it. I'm here for it.
- [05:28]
Todd McShay
Maybe a little.
- [05:29]
Steve Mensch
A little bit.
- [05:31]
Todd McShay
I just, I guess because in the last few drafts, we're starting to see the nil, the transfer portal guys coming out with 55, 57. Like, I wrote it down here because I constantly say, well, he had, you know, a lot of, a lot of starts in the 50s and the low 60s. I wrote it down. Finally. I've been promising that I would. Jaden Daniels, 55 starts at ASU and LSU. Okay. Bo Nix had the FBS record At the time, 61 starts. Auburn and Oregon. Cam Ward from this last year's class. Three different stops. Incarnate word. Right. Washington State in Miami for his final year, 57 starts. So they're all in that 57 to 61 start range. So when they come in the NFL and not only do they start right away, but they, they have a lot of success early on. Well, at least obviously in the, the cases of, of Daniels and, and Bo Nicks from two classes ago. And we'll see what Ward does and. But we know Ward's going to be the week one starter. My point is like, all right, so then, so where do we consider Jackson Dart? And we obviously know that they brought in Russell Wilson, the Giants did. We know that they've, they've got Jameis Winston as well. But where do we. I, I guess on one end of the spectrum, you're always like, you don't want to throw him in the fire too early. And then with Dart, specifically during the draft talk, we talked about Lane Kiffin's offense and like, it's, it's a phenomenal. One of the best offensive systems, and he's one of the best offensive play callers in college football. He exploits college defenses and defensive backs and, and, and back sevens that maybe can't adjust to what he's doing. And as a result, it's not like Jackson Dart can't. It's. Jackson Dart is fortunate to be in a situation where there's some predetermined and some, some. Not a ton of concepts, but the concepts they run, they do with a lot of different shifts, motions, alignments, all that stuff. So that's the long. That's kind of like an abridged version of the conversation we had. Like maybe Jackson dart with 38 starts, not 55 like Jaden Daniels, not 57. Cam Ward, not 61. Bo Nicks just going through the last couple classes. You know, maybe he'll be best off sitting for a year. Then I go back to Drake May. Drake May had 26 starts at UNC. Everyone said in the Patriots organization we're going to send him for a year, we're going to do it the right way. There's no chance we're going to play him as a rookie. You know, this is a long. We're rebuilding all the, all the things and we've said seen this is like old as time. First round quarterbacks always wind up starting in year one. Almost, almost always. Patrick Mahomes is the last one I can think of off the top of my head and I'm sure there's other examples between those but like Patrick Mahomes is the last one. Like truly got a year to sit behind Alex Smith and develop and he needed it and it was one of the best things that happened to his career and he'll tell you that first and foremost. But Jackson Dart 38 starts in a system that does translate but gave him a lot of the, the cheat codes. Drake May with 26 starts and a system that didn't like I remember that offense when we studied Drake May like a lot of RPO stuff. It just wasn't an offense that translated very well to the NFL. Well, he started week six for the Patriots against Houston October 13th. Okay. So like I look at that and I see the other guys with 50s in the 50s and 60s with starts. Now you got Drake May maybe a better, more applicable comp with the college offense. Fewer starts. But Mays, I mean Dart's offense is, is more transferable to the NFL. He had 12 more starts in college than Drake May did. And you're in a division with, with Jaden Daniels, Dak Prescott and Jaylen Herz and what, what happened with May was yeah, he was thrown in the fire with a shitty offense and a system that wasn't awesome and all of the things and yeah, he got banged up and left the left the game two different times I believe with head injuries. Okay. But we know what we got if we're New England. And more importantly, Drake May has like I think double digit starts to go back and study and self assess and learn from his mistakes and learn what he likes most and start to read defenses with him in that tape, not with another quarterback in that tape. And what are the tendencies he showed? What are the. You know, like, there's a lot to pick up. That's why everyone here in New England is so excited about the future. Drake May, well, they didn't win a ton of games. Like, his numbers weren't phenomenal, but, like, we all saw it, and most importantly, he got to see it, and now the teammates got to see it, and they. They look to him for leadership going into year two. So the. We got the clock started on Drake May. It wasn't about winning necessarily last year. It was about getting the clock started a little bit earlier because we're in a division with. With. With Josh Allen, and we're in a conference with Josh Allen and Joe Burrow and Lamar Jackson and Justin Herbert and Patrick Mahomes, obviously. So we got, like, if we're going to compete with the big dogs, we got to get our young pup growing up fast. So I throw it to you, Mr. Mensch. Like, what do you think, man?
- [11:16]
Steve Mensch
I would start by saying they are different situations. What New England had was Jacoby Brissette, and I'm taking Russell Wilson over Jacoby Brissette every day of the week. I don't know if everyone feels that same. And you cannot love Russell Wilson. I get that. But Jacoby Brissette, I think, is a not as good of an option. So we'll go there. First of all, then you had a rookie head coach in Gerard Mayo who was trying to replace a legend, I think was under a lot of pressure to make decisions. So I think there's a stronger argument that that dart won't start. But I do see. I see the path for it, and I'll. Do you want the week right now? Give you the date and that, and I'll tell you the path.
- [11:51]
Todd McShay
Well, I. I reached out to. Via our m. Main man, Tucker. I've reached out to. To fanduel. As I always do. They make fun of me because of Todd's odds. I always love these hypotheticals. And they were like, yo, calm the down.
- [12:09]
Steve Mensch
Again. Again.
- [12:11]
Todd McShay
Yeah. Yes. How many times do we have to tell you to calm down? It's June and we don't have a number and we're not ready to go to the. I think the line was, we're not ready to go to market. But for the sake of this conversation, this is why I love FanDuel. Like our. Our partnership with Fanduel, yes, they keep the lights on, but they're also like, could it be a better partner? Like, no information like this, like, ed up, you know, Right. So, but they, so they still, they appeased me and appeased us on the show and they said seven and a half, game seven and a half.
- [12:47]
Steve Mensch
And there's a reason. Those guys are smart, man. I'll tell you why. You know what happens, you know what happens between week six and week seven? Week six they have a Thursday night game and then week seven is, is an. Is you. If you're going to put a young quarterback in.
- [13:02]
Todd McShay
Look, I love you, man.
- [13:03]
Steve Mensch
Oh, I looked you. If you're going to put a quarterback in, you want a new quarterback in. You want that extra time to prepare. If possible, it'd be great to do it after a buy. Thereby is week 14, I believe maybe it's 15. I think it's 14. It's late in the season. They don't have that mid season buy where you could look at that and be like this is where you would make the change. So it's not going to be there. You want the extra time, right. You got Philadelphia at home Thursday, October 9th. Then you have, you're at Denver the next week on Sunday afternoon. So here's the thing I'll say about this. I starting your rookie quarterback against that Denver defense on the road, not ideal. But here's what you're looking at in the first six games, you've got at Washington, at Dallas, you got Kansas City coming, you've got the Chargers coming and then you're at New Orleans and then you host Eagles.
- [13:54]
Todd McShay
I think, I mean you could be, I think could be 1 in 5, 2 and 4.
- [13:58]
Steve Mensch
You could be. Let's be optimistic and say you're 3 and 3. Let's even say that. Let's say you're 3 and 3 even. If you're 3 and 3 though, right? In that new defense, you're loaded, pass rush, you know, you've just got Abdul Carter and those boys are flying around. You've got that awesome defensive line and you're losing games. Now let's say 17 to 14, you're looking at that and you're saying, man, we're competitive right now and we are not that far away and we're only putting up 17 points a game. We're only putting up whatever amount of points.
- [14:29]
Todd McShay
What harm could it do really?
- [14:31]
Steve Mensch
Hey, we're losing by this much. Then I see you going to the bullpen. Then I see you calling in Jackson Dart at that point and I see, I don't think week seven is out of control. I do think it's a different situation than New England. If you, I Think there's a strong argument that Jackson Dart could sit the whole year because Russell.
- [14:47]
Todd McShay
Yeah, I'm not.
- [14:48]
Steve Mensch
Yes, there's a definite. But there's a reason that number's seven and a half, because if you're looking at it and you're antsy and you want to do it, you're. You're thinking that's the time to do it right after that game. And by the way, it doesn't. This is what Jackson Dart would be going into. It'd be at Denver, in that defense, at Philadelphia, San Francisco. I mean, it's those first three games. You know, it could be real tough.
- [15:12]
Todd McShay
There's brutal schedule. I mean, there's a schedule. I. I don't even think I heard Washington yet, did I?
- [15:18]
Steve Mensch
The off. Washington is in the opener, so Jackson wouldn't have to deal with them. Yeah.
- [15:22]
Todd McShay
Okay. All right. I don't know. It's just.
- [15:26]
Steve Mensch
I could see week seven, man. I could see week seven.
- [15:30]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [15:32]
Steve Mensch
And the other thing is. And you're also. If you're that Giants team, you're looking at that offense and you're saying, we have some weapons, man. I mean, we have. We have Malik neighbors. It's not like when you were in New England and your best guy was maybe Kendrick Bourne coming off an injury or you were hoping that one of those two rookies that you drafted last year was going to step up and make, you know, their best receiver last year for New England was Hunter Henry.
- [15:51]
Todd McShay
Yeah. I mean, they got Tracy and now Scaboo in the back.
- [15:54]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. Yeah, They've. They've got some. And their offensive line is definitely better than what New England had. I could see them.
- [16:01]
Todd McShay
I should mention Tucker came back from FanDuel and said it would be heavily. The money, like, heavily leaning on the over. So it would probably be like, I don't know, minus. Minus 180 or 170, something like that, to take the over. Because a lot of people would take the.
- [16:18]
Steve Mensch
I would. I would take that bet. I would take the under. Just. I mean, I'm not betting the mortgage.
- [16:24]
Todd McShay
I'm not getting the mortgage.
- [16:25]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. But I would. I would definitely take that bet.
- [16:27]
Todd McShay
All right. I just. I don't know. It was. It was.
- [16:30]
Steve Mensch
What about you? What do you. I mean, how do you feel about that?
- [16:33]
Todd McShay
I would take the over. I would take the over because I. But. But if it starts to climb higher than that, I don't. My guess, when we started and I didn't look at the schedule. This is why you always, you know, you're like basf. You don't make the product necessarily. You make the product better. I created this topic. You made the topic better. I was gonna guess like nine, nine and a half, something like that. Without looking the schedule just like. Because I think Russell Wilson is gonna keep things interesting a little bit longer. But we'll see. We'll see. All right, Caleb Downs. Here we go. Back to back.
- [17:17]
Steve Mensch
Let's go.
- [17:18]
Todd McShay
Yeah. Back to our, our roots or whatever the. Whatever you want to call them. Yeah. All right. Let's just get into it. So Caleb down six foot. Six foot. 205, 445. Estimated 40 time. Okay. And again we're, we're covering Caleb Downs because he might be just the best player in this entire draft next year. Happens to be at the safety position where safeties have safety has never been the number one overall pick. And I mentioned some of the guys like the Sean Taylors, the Ed Reeds going all the way back to Ronnie Lot, Troy Palomalu, like those are kind of the names. But we wanted to get to Caleb Downs and at the end here we'll. I'm going to throw out some names. You throw out some if you want to of kind of the top defensive backs in this upcoming class and we'll call it a day for now. But Caleb's interesting because of his just quickly like how many guys go from like one blue blood to another and, and, and Caleb started. He was the first. Was a two year starter. He played over a thousand plus snaps in each of his two seasons. The first at Alabama, the second obviously at Ohio State. He was the first Alabama freshman. Think about all the players that Nick Saban has had and that program history. Right. He's the first Alabama freshman to lead the program in tackles. And a true freshman. Not like a red shirt. He's been, you know, 107 tackles his first year. Three and a half for loss, two interceptions, five PBUs force fumble force and a fumble recovery. Then he transfers to Ohio State. Obviously the coaching change. He. He's there wound up third on the team in tackles. And, and I want to remind you that's third on the team in tackles for a defense that, that had eight players drafted. Eight. And he was third on the team of tackles. Okay.
- [19:29]
Steve Mensch
Unanimous all American, man. He was a unanimous all American. I mean the numbers when you watch the tape, this guy's a difference maker. Yeah, numbers are what the numbers are. But.
- [19:38]
Todd McShay
And numbers in every area. Seven and a half for loss, six pass breakups, two interceptions, one of them against Michigan rivalry game. The Other against Texas in the College Football Playoff semifinal also just throw it in there. Oh, by the way, he averaged 16.3 yards from six punt returns, one of which he brought back to the house. So this guy does like. And then like, I'm always looking like, what's the character, The. The makeup, the work ethic? Like, he's like the 1%.
- [20:12]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. What about the family his dad played was a NFL running back. His older brother is Josh Downs, the receiver for the Colts. His uncle's Dre Bly. I mean, these. These aren't just guys that play in the league. These were guys were played in the league for a while. These are dudes. You. I mean, there's. It's like you're going down the boxes and it's check, check, check, check, check, check. Even though even the side. Tell me about this, too, because it's tough to do this when you're watching tape, but when you're looking at his frame and it says 205, he carries his weight really well. Man, he is a compact build. I mean, he. He's 205. If you had told me he was 215, I would have believed you. He looks a little heavier. He doesn't move like a heavier safety, but he hits. He's got some. Some thump. And he's just. He looks like a heavier safety with the way he plays.
- [20:58]
Todd McShay
All right, let's play my favorite game twice a week. I get to play it in the summer with Mensch, the position specific traits game. I'll remind everyone. I'm sure if you're. If you're a loyal follower, you're like, Shut up, McShay. We know it's like playing golf. The lower the score, the better. But it's a one through five scale. One, excellent. Two, Good. Three, average. Four, Below average. Five, marginal. You're not going to hear many fives. Probably no fours with Caleb doubts, but let's rip through them. We got four position specific traits for defensive backs. And I'll let you go first. And I'll. And I'll counter with what my grade would be complete surprise mention I haven't talked a lick about any of this stuff. All right, first one, Instincts and recognition. What's your grade?
- [21:47]
Steve Mensch
1.5.
- [21:49]
Todd McShay
I went 1. We'll get into that.
- [21:52]
Steve Mensch
Coverage.
- [21:53]
Todd McShay
Coverage.
- [21:54]
Steve Mensch
I went 1.5 again.
- [21:56]
Todd McShay
I did two ball skills.
- [21:58]
Steve Mensch
Two.
- [22:02]
Todd McShay
You're right. I'm wrong.
- [22:06]
Steve Mensch
You went 1, didn't you?
- [22:07]
Todd McShay
1.5. And then I saw a few things in Oregon. We'll get to it.
- [22:12]
Steve Mensch
Yes, yes.
- [22:13]
Todd McShay
Right.
- [22:14]
Steve Mensch
That was the game.
- [22:14]
Todd McShay
Yeah, I think, I think I forgot I had put that grade in as I was like, three quarters away. Done. Just so I had it. And I, I, I gotta start. I'm actually gonna make a note. Hey, Dan, the McShay report comes out tomorrow. Subscribe. Specific grade should be a tribe Mencha's, right? Oh, yeah. By the way, today we had a, a quarterback roundup.
- [22:34]
Steve Mensch
Kind of like in Death, man. Yeah, Death. Yeah, it went a little bit.
- [22:41]
Todd McShay
Dan asks questions, I answers, I answer, you know, so it's actually kind of a cool piece. If you're not subscribing, just google the McShay report. You can subscribe. There's a bunch of stuff you get for free. There's some stuff you get to throw some scratch at. It's going to be worth it. I, I, yeah, I mean, easy for me to say, but I, I believe in what we're doing, and I think you will, too, when you get it, when you check it out. If you love this game and you love, you know, if, if you're watching right now, you probably want to subscribe. It's the best way I can put it. We had the article come out today, kind of synopsis on all the quarterbacks. We've done kind of some of the updated grades as we go through and compare and contrast. And also I just gave you a big sneak peek into what our process is for Steve and I, every off season, why we pick certain players, you know, what can change, what are the skill sets. We look for, all that stuff. So check that out there. Good.
- [23:35]
Steve Mensch
This one was a good example, too. If you think that you're getting, you could just watch the show and you're getting everything that's in the McShay report. This is a great example of one of those pieces that you're not. There is stuff that's just in there that, you know, when you're sitting down, you're writing, and Dan's asking you questions, there's material that's in the McShay Report that you're not going to find on McShay Show. This isn't something that, you know, we're just, you know, he's trying to sell you something he's already given, given you. That's just not the case.
- [23:58]
Todd McShay
Thanks, man. Yeah. And then tomorrow, this is kind of serving as a preview. Tomorrow morning, when you get up your inbox, it's right in your inbox. It's so easy. Tomorrow in your inbox will be the full breakdown of Caleb Downs. And God knows how many plays, 50 plays. It felt like I did every specific play that stood out to me and kind of notes on it. So there we go. So instincts, recognition. I said one, you said 1.5. Coverage skill. We agreed 1.5. Ball skills. You said two, I said 1.5. You're right. I'm at two with you.
- [24:36]
Steve Mensch
Run.
- [24:38]
Todd McShay
Run support is the final one. Pos. Position specific grade. What's your grade?
- [24:43]
Steve Mensch
Two.
- [24:45]
Todd McShay
Okay, I want 1.5. I. I like how you have to.
- [24:48]
Steve Mensch
Look down like you didn't know. You. You look down like, what did I. I'm looking down.
- [24:52]
Todd McShay
I'm three steps ahead. I'm three passes ahead here. I'm trying to get. To make sure I'm going the right place. All right, man. Gave the backdrop, gave the grades. You get started.
- [25:02]
Steve Mensch
I came in in a defensive position because one of our listeners, when we were talking about Calum Downs, Caleb Downs, right after the draft and in the way too early mock dropped, that's way too early for a box safety. And I came into it thinking, you know what, maybe I'm going to humor this and say, is this guy just a box safety? Because I love what he does in the box. We'll start there, right? I love when he plays close to the line of scrimmage. And why do I love it? Because I think he absolutely can erase tight ends. I think he matches up so well with tight ends and coverage. He just. His ability to stay in their back pocket, the way he plays the ball against them. I think when you look at how he was against Tyler. I mean, listen, he played against Tyler Warren and Terence Ferguson and some other really good tight ends last year, and he played really well. Would have loved to have seen the Colson Loveland matchup. Obviously Loveland didn't play in that game, but again, a racist tight ends. I think he's really good against the run. Close to the line of scrimmage. He gets stuck on blocks. Yes, but he's aggressive, he's quick. He had seven and a half tackles for loss last year. So I get why people look at him and say, well, he's a box safety. Or if they want to play him, you know, play him up a little bit, which they did. I think Ohio State did that a fair amount last year to get their best players on the field and play their best schemes. But Caleb Downs is not just a box safety. This guy's an interchangeable dude who could play high. Go back and look at the picky head against Mississippi State when he's a freshman at Alabama, and he's. He's reading the quarterback. He's getting off the hash, he's tracking the ball, and he's plucking the ball out of the air. This guy could cover over the top. He can do all of those things. And when you see him, Phil, when you see him run the alley, when he's coming from that high, you know, from a high safety spot, he gets downhill in a hurry. He is quick. He closes well. He breaks on the ball. Well, he is all of those things. This is a guy I think they play anywhere you would ask a safety to play.
- [26:51]
Todd McShay
Yeah. What year was Ed Reed drafted?
- [26:57]
Steve Mensch
I can find out right now for you.
- [26:59]
Todd McShay
2001.
- [27:02]
Steve Mensch
I didn't go back that far, but I was looking at the.
- [27:04]
Todd McShay
All right. I think. I think he has the best instincts and recognition skills of any defensive back I've evaluated since 2002. 2002. Okay.
- [27:18]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [27:18]
Todd McShay
Now, it was early in my scouting career at that point, but I remember distinctly being like, this cat's different. And then you. You hear about, like, the Tom Brady and the. And the Peyton Manning stories of, like, they had him beat. There's no way. Like, there's no way. And then, like, having them, like, after the fact of, like, what. What did you see, man? What did you see now? Like, I'm. I'm not running away with this thing and being like, he's the next Ed Reed, definitely. But I am saying, like, there's some things that stood out on tape about him with his instincts and recognition and. And is he there yet? No, but here's what jumped out to me. There's a lot of defensive backs and safeties, especially where they have their eyes on the quarterback or eyes in the backfield reading their keys, looking for the ball, breaking on the ball, who are great at it. Three things stood out. This mother. Foe, like, he. He has got to do meticulous tape study, like, offensive lineman, pressure point on his finger type of stuff, like running back, running back with hand here versus, like, whatever. All the. All the things that I've sat with. I've sat with Chris Spielman. We've sat with Bruski. We've sat with guys who, like, literally will find the littlest thing, and you would have never even thought to look for it. But over 15 years in the NFL, you learn to find one. Like, there's gotta be a tip. It's like playing poker at the highest level. This guy does a lot of that stuff, but that's not even what jumps out to me, it's not even what's most impressive. What jumped out to me. And like, I think what separates him from just about everyone I've studied in the last decade or so is the combination of these two things. And listen to me closely here. And I'm not talking to you men. You don't have to listen closely.
- [29:23]
Steve Mensch
His.
- [29:24]
Todd McShay
His ball location or ball reaction. Right. Which is the second. Remember, like we talked to Brusky. We had a good conversation. I go back to that because it's a conversation that you and I both had together. I've had plenty of others with plenty of other people, but Teddy's like an all timer and you and I had that conversation together.
- [29:40]
Steve Mensch
So we still reference it.
- [29:41]
Todd McShay
Yeah, we still need a reference because you. You and I know what we're talking about. But in terms of that conversation where it was like, you have two reads as a linebacker safety. The first one is your key. Whether it's a guard pulling, whatever you're looking for in the snap of the ball. And that's like a. Okay. And that's going to get you to kind of go drift one way, head in that direction. Wherever you're. Whatever your responsibility is, it gets you that first step. The next key, the next read is the ball location or ball reaction, whatever. Whatever is being coached. Whatever terminology, phraseology. And that's like. So how many times do you watch guys on tape where it's. He reads his key. That first step is. Right. But then there's this like, pause, you know what I mean? With Caleb Downs, there's no pause. In fact, he gets started and trusts his eyes so much that as he's go like he's. He sees it and then trusts his eyes. That's the second part. It's like, it's one thing to read your key. It's another the ball location. And then it's a third thing to be like, I am certain that's it. And then to not be wrong. I counted one time in 87 key plays where this guy Caleb Downs. Actually, I don't want to say guessed read wrong. There are a couple. We'll get to coverage and some things over his head and all that stuff I'm talking about like Reed key ball location.
- [31:21]
Steve Mensch
He's got the. He's got the quickest trigger I've seen in a long time. I mean, he is. It's lightning quick.
- [31:28]
Todd McShay
What is that? That it's. Everyone can read a key. And then the second part is. Is ball location, location, locating the football, which is a hard key. To read with a bunch of 300 pound plus people going this way, that way and your 280 pound, 290 guys.
- [31:47]
Steve Mensch
In these schemes where there's all these magic tricks. Look over here.
- [31:51]
Todd McShay
RPOs.
- [31:51]
Steve Mensch
Yes.
- [31:52]
Todd McShay
Yeah. Look at my right hand while I you with my left hand. You know, it's true.
- [31:59]
Steve Mensch
It's true though.
- [32:02]
Todd McShay
But he's got those two. But then there's a third thing. To absolutely explode with confidence and like no can. No, no doubt in your mind.
- [32:13]
Steve Mensch
No hesitation. 3.
- [32:16]
Todd McShay
And he plays violent and he plays aggressively. He's vicious. He's like an offense. Like he's like a terrorist to offenses. And so you combine all those things and that's why like he just blows up more plays than I remember. What was it? Jalen Petrie. Right. We talked about him. But he did, he did. He did one thing. He hung around the edge and he came off the edge and he blew things up. This guy does that. But then he's seven yards off the line of scrimmage and that kind of like a, A reduced safety role, but robber kind of. Yeah, yeah, right. And then he'll be just cheated up as a typical strong safety in the box. Then he'll be too high safety. Look, and wherever he is, if that plays in front of him, gets there faster than anyone we've seen in years. Men. He does.
- [33:14]
Steve Mensch
I agree. I did ding him. I did ding him because I think he gets over aggressive at times, especially in the red zone. I saw a couple things in the red zone where I was like, he's got to hold his water a little bit more there. He can't be so quick to step up. You know, when he gets put in that situation as the quarterback in a run here is it. I think he's a little too quick to play. Play the quarterback. I would say that I saw that. I mean definitely less than a handful of plays. But if we're talking about elite. Elite. I was the only reason I gave him that 0.5 because again, the trigger is unbelievable. It is the quickest trigger. I, I don't remember seeing it.
- [33:50]
Todd McShay
We talk about like low to arrival with quarterbacks. We just spent a lot of time, like three weeks on quarterbacks. The low to arrival from like the millisecond that a quarterback has made the decision. I'm. I'm going here, I'm going with it to when the ball arrives. His load to arrival as a safety is like different different.
- [34:09]
Steve Mensch
Like you can watch, you'll watch him. If someone asks you, can you explain it to me, all I would do is put on five plays and then put on five plays of whatever other safety you wanted to look at and you'll see it right away. Something that's easier to see than to explain really.
- [34:25]
Todd McShay
I feel like that get like he's not the biggest dude. There are definitely plays. I've got a handful of plays and I'm not going to waste people's time. Go read the McShay report that got a really specific play breakdown. It shows all the positives, the negative. There are some plays where he, where he needs to take on and he can't. His size shows up kind of inside and around the box, even a couple times like bigger receiver. But. But like even there was. What game was. It was late in the season.
- [34:52]
Steve Mensch
Tyler. Tyler. Warren. Warren got him one time.
- [34:55]
Todd McShay
He got him one time on the ISO. But then he. But then it was a fourth and or third and nine play. One play later on my breakdown and he goes and he fights off the rub.
- [35:06]
Steve Mensch
Exactly what you were talking about though, by the way, I'm glad you brought up that play because it's a great example of the film prep. He understood how Penn State was going to run that route combination and he knew if he played over the top, he would still have enough time to get there close, make the tackle and put his fist up for fourth down. I mean he was. It shows how he knew exactly how to play that route combination in that situation.
- [35:30]
Todd McShay
Yeah, there's. There's a. I was going to look through this. There's. There's a, A nice combo of plays where he, where he, he makes a mistake and he gets stuck on a block on like a screen to the outside. I thought it was Notre Dame, but I'm looking through my. No, it was Texas. It was Texas. Okay. 1304, third quarter. Takes an inside angle working over the top of a wide receivers block taken out of the play. Not like him, but definitely a coaching moment. That's what I put in my notes. Then like six minutes later of game clock later, 6:34, third quarter. This time shows patience versus the screen. We're talking in game, same quarter, learn from mistake and. And instead of like flying in, coming in too hot, he's patient with it. Feels out what's coming. What's coming. Am I going to get. Where's the trap? Because with all those screens, there's a trap. They're trying to get you to walk into the trap door. And so he kind of patiently waited it out, came in and you know, on balance and Stayed. Stayed on block and. And made the tackle. I said in game adjustment, exclamation point, like so. It's little things like that with Caleb that I appreciate in this game coverage. I wanted to get to the. The ball skills. Let's come back. The reason I changed it to you added to. He didn't have a ton of interception opportunities throughout the vast majority of the season. I. Here's what I do love about his ball skills. I think he takes great angles. I think he has really good body control and a lot like Jade Baron. When the ball is like that last. It's kind of like the. The point of no return or like, you know, it's like the telling moment. Balls come like two feet away. You're coming in. Can you control your body. So to not interfere and get penalized enough but still reach around or get your hand where it needs to go and how quickly can you do it? I think he's like his. His hand quickness, for lack of a better phrase, like his like reaction skills, hand eye coordination and then the body control to kind of work around guys. Really good. I love that about. About his ball skills. And that's. That's part of the angles. You take undercutting routes, getting your hand up at the last second, not making contact. Those are all like confidence when the ball's in the air. I thought he was great. I think he's great when he. When he's coming forward, playing the ball and we'll get to coverage in a second because. But there's a lot of similarities. However, I don't know about his actual hands catching the.
- [38:14]
Steve Mensch
Here we go.
- [38:15]
Todd McShay
One interception against Texas was right in his body. Really good play to get there. But like, I'm talking about like the. The point where ball leather hits hand, leather hits your skin. One was the body catch, and then the other interception was.
- [38:33]
Steve Mensch
Was Michigan. That was a tough one, man. That was.
- [38:36]
Todd McShay
It was low. Yeah, it was low.
- [38:37]
Steve Mensch
Behind and low. Yeah.
- [38:39]
Todd McShay
Yeah. Yep. Okay, so those are the two.
- [38:41]
Steve Mensch
So one of fastball but still tough.
- [38:44]
Todd McShay
It was a tough. That was just. To me, it was just hand eye coordination, reaction skills. Then he had three against Oregon, though, in the College Football Playoff. Great plays to get into that spot. All PBUs, no pass interferences. All. All three would have been tough catches, but all three hit his hand. Slash hands, you know, and so that's when you said a two. Go ahead.
- [39:11]
Steve Mensch
I went back and watched the two in Alabama last year too, and I thought. Though I mentioned the one from Mississippi State, really good job of Tracking and plucking. And the other one was real impressive where he jumped in front of the receiver and ripped it out. I can't remember which game it is, but he jumped in front of the receiver and he ripped it out. Those were two I was. He can. I don't have any doubts about him being able to make plays. I think you're going to see what you saw this this past year, which is he's going to make some awesome plays and then you're like, wow, I'm surprised he didn't get that one. He's going to let a few get away. I think. I don't think he has elite hands. But the reason that we know that and we can get into this with the coverage, I think the reason we know that is he's always around the ball and he can like, if he's in the area and you're going to try and target him, he's got a real good chance of getting his hands on the ball and giving himself a chance to make a play and then go back to the punt. That dude's dangerous in space, I mean.
- [40:04]
Todd McShay
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
- [40:06]
Steve Mensch
So once he gets the ball in his hands. Now you have a whole nother. Yeah, you have a whole nother issue for you coverage.
- [40:14]
Todd McShay
I'll. I'll try to give you a quick synopsis on this. In my opinion, this is what I saw.
- [40:20]
Steve Mensch
Gotcha.
- [40:21]
Todd McShay
I think he's great at a few things in coverage. I think he's great near the line of scrimmage, matching up man to man. I think he's great versus tight ends. He's got a very impressive combination of physicality, quickness in the short area. I think against receivers he's got great closing burst.
- [40:42]
Steve Mensch
You saw that in the. OR on one of the Oregon drops that you're talking about.
- [40:45]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [40:46]
Steve Mensch
You saw the first recovery. Right.
- [40:48]
Todd McShay
100. Not a lot of guys even get there to where we can be picking apart the fact that he didn't make the pick.
- [40:54]
Steve Mensch
Right.
- [40:56]
Todd McShay
So I, I love that like when he deciphers plants drives when he's. Anytime he's in coverage with his eyes forward, the actions in front of him and he can drive forward on the football with the great instincts that he has and that great like ex. Initial burst and then closing burst. He's outstanding. Tight ends in coverage, I, I even slots in like underneath trail, those sorts of things. I think he's really, really good. I actually like him in a. Too high look. Who was it against? Was it Nebraska maybe? Yeah, I think it was Nebraska he.
- [41:34]
Steve Mensch
Did play high a fair amount in that game.
- [41:35]
Todd McShay
Yeah, he was. Yeah, he was in a. He was in a. Too high. Look, he was on the left hash but. But it turned out. I don't know if it was a quarters match or. Or what it was, but he wound up in man to man on. On a slot receiver, bigger slot receiver. And he just leveraged the hell out of him, you know, to the point where the ball was thrown there and the wide receiver had nowhere to go, couldn't get through him. And it was like, shouldn't that be passing our fears? Like. No, you just. You just got worked over.
- [42:04]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, he's got the right to his path. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
- [42:07]
Todd McShay
So I liked a lot of that. So I like him underneath, planting, driving, coming forward. I love him when he's reacting to the receiver, when he's. When he's studying just the receiver because there's in zone. A lot of times it's eyes in the quarterback backfield trying to, you know, react to that. I love him receiver reaction. What I don't love is when he needs to play in a lot of. In a good amount of space. And it may be in single high, it may be in too high, it may be where he's in that like robber tweener, linebacker, safety thing. But. But if there's. When he's in pure zone and there's a lot of like crossers and guys coming in and out of his zone, the guy who I'm saying has the best instincts in the world. There's some times where he looks a little like it's the computer's on overload and you can hear the. The engine buzzing sometimes I saw. And then when the ball goes over his head or he's got to turn and run, that's where he's got to. I want to see him get better that that those like big in space having to cover a lot of. But with a lot of stuff going on is area one. I'm looking for improvement in 20, 25 area. And we're nitpicking but like gotta we all. Everyone's gonna get better at everything they do every day, right? And then the other thing is for as awesome as he is and all the things we talked about with instincts, reaction ball location, a terrorist against the run, all that stuff. My man misses a lot of tackles.
- [43:54]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, he does miss a fair amount of tackles.
- [43:56]
Todd McShay
He dies torpedo lower body trip up the. Or you know, swipe the. The feet, all that stuff. Those are the two things I want to see improve this year, I will.
- [44:08]
Steve Mensch
Say I will counter a little bit on the coverage. I actually don't have an issue with him too high or in zone. I actually think he does. I. I am a little bit more worried about him matching up against explosive slot receivers. I think he runs really well in a straight line. If you can get him to open up a little bit, that's going to.
- [44:25]
Todd McShay
Be a little tougher.
- [44:26]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, that's going to be a little tougher for him in. In the NFL. I think. I totally agree with you about the missed tackles. Sometimes it's the angle, sometimes it's him leaving his feet too early. He's got to bring his hips a little bit better. That's kind of. You live and die with that a little bit with the guy who's so explosive. Listen, safety's missed tackles and there's holes in zone coverages. I'm with you, man. I just think that you are right. You're going to nitpick when you're talking about. About a guy who could be, you know, he's looked at maybe the best prospect in this class. That's what you're going to do. Is he. Is he that special? Because he is a safety. So now you're going to get into where are the weaknesses, where are the flaws, and you're going to start talking about this a little bit.
- [45:06]
Todd McShay
Yeah, I wanted to while we're here because we're not going to get. I mean, we're in June, July's coming up. I got to grill the man on the 4th. We got parties all over the North Shore and South Shore. Right. I mean, it's time to have some fun. So I don't think we're going to be diving into the defensive backs in the 2026 class, nor should we.
- [45:28]
Steve Mensch
Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. I want to say one thing.
- [45:31]
Todd McShay
Yes.
- [45:32]
Steve Mensch
There is zero way Caleb Downs goes first overall. We can agree on that, right?
- [45:36]
Todd McShay
Yes, agree.
- [45:37]
Steve Mensch
Okay. All right.
- [45:38]
Todd McShay
And it has nothing to do with him as a player.
- [45:41]
Steve Mensch
Exactly. Okay.
- [45:42]
Todd McShay
Okay.
- [45:43]
Steve Mensch
It feels like the market for defensive backs is softened. And not only is it softened, but safeties were never really taken that early anyways. Someone's going to get a great safety.
- [45:51]
Todd McShay
It's actually a good point. On. On defensive backs. Two years, they've. They've fallen a little bit more.
- [45:58]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. Think about it. You had Hunter go, obviously, and the next guy to go last year was Johnny Baron.
- [46:03]
Todd McShay
Bit as much about wide receiver as it was corner. And we all know that.
- [46:07]
Steve Mensch
Right? So he. Jade a. Baron was 20 so if you're looking at the first year before.
- [46:10]
Todd McShay
Quinn Mitchell was 21 or 20.
- [46:13]
Steve Mensch
22, man, 22.
- [46:15]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [46:17]
Steve Mensch
And damn good defensive backs. Damn good. Yeah.
- [46:20]
Todd McShay
Oh, yeah. So I had Baron in the top 10. Like, I. I'd stand on that.
- [46:27]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. So I love Caleb Downs. I don't think there's any shot he goes first overall.
- [46:31]
Todd McShay
No.
- [46:31]
Steve Mensch
All right. Who else you got?
- [46:34]
Todd McShay
These are names I got. Just quick glimpse. I'm not going to do breakdowns or anything like that. Names and stuff. I've seen stuff. I've talked to scouts about. J. McCoy from Tennessee. This one's interesting. Cornerback. I'm just doing defensive backs.
- [46:46]
Steve Mensch
Just.
- [46:47]
Todd McShay
Guys, we're getting ready for the season. People are starting to gear up from afar. Let's just throw out some names and it can live. It can live on YouTube. Hey, by the way, YouTube, thanks for watching. We appreciate it. Mench is better than men. Just go ahead, hit that subscribe button.
- [47:00]
Steve Mensch
Hit the subscribe button when you go over to YouTube. Hit the Follow button when you're at Spotify. He's at McShade 13 for all his socials. I'm at you. Good mensch. M U E N C H. And again, you're not getting the same stuff on the McShay Report that you're getting on the McShay Show. So consider subscribing.
- [47:15]
Todd McShay
And I'm on threads now at McShade 13.
- [47:19]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [47:19]
Todd McShay
Let's go.
- [47:20]
Steve Mensch
All right, man.
- [47:21]
Todd McShay
It's your July project. Jermad McCoy from Tennessee, Oregon State transfer, awesome year last year for Tennessee. Four interceptions last season. That aggressive man to man coverage, that kind of in the College Football Playoff against Ohio State. However, he's, he's got all the tools, right. Yeah, I think a lot of people in the league consider him kind of like, I don't know, odds on favorite or whatever coming into the year. Like, he's the guy you got to kind of look out for, but he suffered a torn ACL during a January training session or something. So like, yeah, that sucks.
- [48:05]
Steve Mensch
That's tough, man.
- [48:06]
Todd McShay
That sucks. So we have to see, you know, obviously we're, we're pulling for McCoy and rebounding, but don't know what that's going to look like this season. So beyond Jermond McCoy, Avion Terrell from Clemson, another Terrell. Got to get stronger, but he's kind of a crafty, smart corner movement, skills, speed to be an early round draft pick. Okay. And that Clemson defense is going to be something we're getting. We're going to get to that next week, maybe the next week or two. Clemson can't wait.
- [48:37]
Steve Mensch
Those are my guys.
- [48:38]
Todd McShay
Ready?
- [48:39]
Steve Mensch
Those are my guys.
- [48:40]
Todd McShay
I got some Clemson gear in the house too. Get some stuff sent.
- [48:45]
Steve Mensch
We're going.
- [48:46]
Todd McShay
We're going to a Clemson.
- [48:47]
Steve Mensch
You're a double agent, man. That's why you've been giving me such a hard time.
- [48:50]
Todd McShay
That's why I've been baiting you, bud. A.J. harris is an interesting one from Penn State. 6184 former five star recruit. Went to Georgia, transferred this this deep. Penn State's loaded again men. And that the DB group is going to be. Is projected to be outstanding. He could be the best of the bunch. He didn't have a ton of stats like five past breakups, one pick, but was all, you know, all Big Ten honors and all that. So I think AJ Harris is a name to get to know. Damani Jackson from Alabama, six one physical, 195 corn, 195 pound corner. He's a name to watch for. Jair Hill from Michigan, tabbed in like the next. Michigan's always got a DB.
- [49:39]
Steve Mensch
Rod Moore, MI.
- [49:40]
Todd McShay
That's Rod Moore. Yeah. Malik Muhammad from Texas is on the list. By the way, the National Blessedo list coming out. Names that kind of keep an eye on, right? Malik Muhammad from Texas, As I said, 6 foot 185, really instinctive, aware, kind of going to step up, I think, in that, that John A. Baron role this year. We'll see how that works for him. And then Dylan Thienaman from Oregon, the.
- [50:09]
Steve Mensch
Safety, I think you're saying that right.
- [50:11]
Todd McShay
And Kamari Ramsey from usc, both safety. So that's about, I don't know what, seven, eight, nine.
- [50:20]
Steve Mensch
I felt it was hot going into last year and I, I just, I know he had a down year, but he's an interesting player because of the frame. And that's Takario Davis who's at Arizona and now he's going to Washington and I feel like no one's talking about him anymore. He's a pterodactyl. He is 6 foot 4 and I mean he is long and with that frame you get some tightness and I get it. But he could be a guy that people aren't, you know, maybe forgotten about a little bit and has a strong ear and can move up. I'm not saying he's one of the top corners in this class right now, but just it's a name to keep in mind. To keep. Keep in mind.
- [50:53]
Todd McShay
All right, this is fun.
- [50:56]
Steve Mensch
Toss. Finally got to talk about Our guy. Get away from the quarterbacks for a minute. I love the quarterbacks, man. That was great. It was. Don't get me wrong, but, you know, this is. This feels a little bit. Feels good to get away from for a second. We're not talking offensive guards yet, but that's all. It's fine. I get it. What's on your mind? What's on your mind?
- [51:18]
Todd McShay
I was just gonna see if you were gonna wind up going on a five minute rant, so. I was giving you space.
- [51:23]
Steve Mensch
No, I mean, we've all heard it already. We know we've heard it. I don't know if we mentioned Mendoza, by the way, as one of the guys who watched too. We've done it. It's been a pretty good deep dive. There's a lot of people angry about their quarterbacks not getting discussed, by the way. I don't know if you've seen that.
- [51:35]
Todd McShay
Tell us, Steve.
- [51:37]
Steve Mensch
Well, there's a lot of. Where. Where's. I don't know if I shouldn't say it, but. Where's Carson Beck? They want to know where Carson Beck is.
- [51:43]
Todd McShay
He's down in Miami.
- [51:44]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, the kid from Baylor they want to hear about. There's, you know, everyone's quarterback's the best.
- [51:52]
Todd McShay
I did sneak in a quarterback today. Jackson Dart. Even on today. We're talking about defensive backs. Yeah. Let's get out of here before we wear out our. Wear out our welcome. We appreciate everyone. We'll see you on Thursday. Jeremiah Love, Notre Dame.
- [52:08]
Steve Mensch
Can't wait.
- [52:09]
Todd McShay
Running back class can't possibly stack up with last year and 25 backs taken. But we'll. We'll talk about it all on Thursday. See you guys. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18/ plus and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit MD gambling help.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit Gambling Helpline ma.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York. Sam.