← The McShay Show
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- [00:01]
A
Have you ever spotted McDonald's hot crispy fries right as they're being scooped into the carton? And time just stands still. It's just that time of year. There's not going to be a lot of structure to this show, so apologies in advance.
- [00:24]
B
Oh, here we go.
- [00:27]
A
But here's some of what we might get to today. All right. There's a quarterback that caught me completely off guard, a running back class that we're going to need to start really digging down into, and conversations that I've had with NFL scouts in the past 48 hours that I will try to frame, and absolutely no predetermined structure to this show at all. So wish us luck and 70 days to the draft. Met you good?
- [00:51]
B
I'm good, man.
- [00:52]
A
Let's hear those horns. All right. This doesn't happen very often, Max, Right? Like, call it. It's like a myriad of things. A perfect storm. We started the show in late October, October 22nd. Didn't even know if we'd be working this year and doing this together. Kind of got a late jump starting a show, trying to understand the workings of it. And so I don't even think it's like getting behind on prospects, but had to prioritize prospects, right? So we got the Senior bowl coming up. Saw the rosters come out. Jim Nagy, you know, did us a solid sentiment advance so that we could kind of prepare. Had done like 10 quarterbacks or eight or 10 quarterbacks, right? And then, remember, a few of them went back. Like, Garrett Nussmeier went back to school. Carson Beck went back to school. So when I saw Tyler Schuck from Louisville on there, I said, not shocking, but haven't done as much work on him as some of the other quarterbacks have. You know, I've obviously seen him play, but this past year, then you add another part of the perfect storm. This guy's had a journey, man.
- [02:10]
B
Yeah.
- [02:11]
A
So, like, I did a little bit of tape before, but it was kind of watching a bunch of players at the same time. Saw him at the Senior bowl, and I remember turning to you multiple times as we're watching on the field and in the stands and being like. Because you had just taught me how to pronounce it, it was like, show, Tyler, show. Right? You're like, shock. Okay, got it. And I would, like, nudge you and be like, shocked. Shock.
- [02:33]
B
Yeah.
- [02:33]
A
You know, like, he had a great week, Right? It was kind of overshadowed again because, like, the quarterbacks, I just felt like we didn't see the whole. The the whole gamut from them, we're looking at Jalen Milro and his struggles and Jackson Dart and what he's doing and Dylan Gabriel. And so I feel like we didn't give him his due. Okay, so we come back from the Senior bowl trying to get into a bunch of different players, and I, I made the decision because like I said in the last show, it's so important this time of year to start stacking and, and watching tape after tape so that you're compare. Comparing apples to apples. And I even went back and I told you I watched a little bit of, of Jaden Daniels and Drake May to just kind of frame that, you know, compared, not comp. Because sometimes we get so caught up in this class and start to bump guys up and you. You lose perspective. Okay, so I did all that work and we talked about Jackson Dart last time, comparing him to Shador Sanders. And so the next in line, I was like, I've got to, I've got to really do finally my deep dive on Tyler shot. Okay, so it starts with this conversation I'm having with, with one of the NFL scouts, and we'll get to some of the, the conversations I had and just try to kind of frame some of it. I'm not going to sit here and, you know, talk through every bit and the players we talked about, but I do want to provide some insight because there's. There was a lot of interesting insight, especially this time of year. We started going through Shuck's history, right? And he wrote, he reminded me. I don't know if you. You're aware of this. You probably are, but I don't know that most of our audience will know this. Tyler Schuck, in his first year in college football. Do you know he was the backup to Justin Herbert at Oregon? That's how long this guy's been playing college ball. That's fascinating to me. All right, so he's got this, this long journey, if you will, starts at Oregon, backup Herbert goes to the league, he's the starter. Hits a couple bumps in the road late in his first season as a starter. And so he's in a competition. Mario Cristobal, I think, takes off, he transfers to Texas Tech. Okay. And I've got the notes here from, from the scout. He went through his, you know, they have the database, and he's just going through to make sure it was accurate on the medical stuff. And so going back to 20, 21, right? This is when he's at Texas Tech, he's the starter again. Okay. 9, 25, September 25th. That year, clavicle injury, misses the rest of the season, comes back, earns a starting job again at Texas Tech. Six games into that year, another broken clavicle and that's 2022. Misses six games. Then final year 2023 in on 9 23, September 23rd, breaks his left fibula. He's out for the rest of that season, transfers to Louisville. Jeff and Brian Braum, excellent quarterback developers like don't get enough due two of the best in the country at developing quarterbacks and puts together this year and stays healthy and gets invited to the Senior bowl and has a great week. And so with that is kind of the backdrop. He turns 25 years old on draft weekend, ironically turns 25 years old. And I'm watching his tape mensch and I'll give you a quick overview. But I want you to understand this. The hard part is and I'm not going to get caught too caught up on the age right. Quarterbacks are playing long. Quarterbacks are being protected. 25 years old. Got it. I'm more. It's more fascinating and a positive like all he's been through the wars he's been through the fight he's been through and. And to see where he see like the resiliency, the maturity that everyone in the league talks about with this young man. Okay, but I also now we've got to compare them and I'll, I'll get back to the all the traits and everything in a second. But it becomes a little bit more difficult because I'm looking at a guy who's bigger than the top three quarterbacks in. In Cam Ward, Shador Sanders, Jackson Dart more mobile. He's a better runner. He's a better runner now than Dart. Yes. I think when he takes off to run he's got a little more juice. Now I don't know that he's as slip. He's not. I don't. He's not as like that that quick agility to make that defender who breaks breaks through and gets free at the last second. He's not as good as. As Ward and as. And as Shador, but he's a better like when he decides to run or he's rolling outside the he's. He's got. He takes off faster. Okay, so bigger faster. I'm not saying more extending better than but faster and as strong an arm is Cam Ward similar Cam Ward stronger arm than the other two. Slightly stronger than Dart. Okay, that's the back. Okay, now you're comparing it and you're saying, okay, Jackson Dart. We just talked about Jackson Dart QB3. Like not a big gap between Shador and Jackson on tape. It is interesting. I just read this. I'm not sure where I got it, but since 2010, only nine quarterbacks have received combine invites while being younger than 22, playing 30 plus games in college and at a QBR of at least 80 in their final season. Jackson Dart is, is the ninth guy, right. The other guys, Mahomes, Lamar Jackson, Trevor Lawrence, Jared Goff, Jalen Hurts, Deshaun Watson. Wow. Mariota and Bridgewater. So like on one side for Dart, it's a real positive still being young, success in college and play a lot, started a lot of games. On the other side, you got this guy who's more physically gifted in some ways, a few ways than the other. The top three quarterbacks in this class. But is 25 and so like he should be more developed at this point. And he is in a lot of ways. And I think a lot of it had to do with the experience he's been through and also the year that he had with the Brahms in Louisville. Okay. It's a lot to get out there. I told you.
- [08:51]
B
I'm just gonna let you go. You're on a roll.
- [08:53]
A
Yeah. Let me just rip through this and, and we'll, we'll take it where we.
- [08:55]
B
Here we go.
- [08:56]
A
Okay. So I watch a bunch of tapes and I could give you a bunch of plays. I don't want to do that today. I I if you, if you're interested in some of the plays that kind of showcase what he can do. I put a few of them out there on X. Okay. It's at McShay 13. If you're looking for for Mencha stuff too. It's you good mensch M U E N C H you good bench. Y ou on on X. So if you're looking for for our our draft stuff leading up to appreciate you checking it out and again I appreciate you watching the show. Hang with us here today. I know, I know I'm all over the place but we're gonna get there and I know I, I read some of the comments to make sure I'm in touch with what everyone's saying. I know I'm doing it again. Mench has been here for for 11 minutes and much he can talk the rest of the show after this. Athletically gifted with prototypical size and handspan. Really impressed with quick feet. This guy at 66047, almost 65. He moves well. Man like the suddenness with his feet. And I, I love how his feet are tied to his eyes. A lot of times these long levered quarterbacks, it's hard. Like when they go from progression read 1 to 2 to 3. Their feet don't travel with them quickly. His does. That's important. He's got a live arm, good velocity in the ball. Jumps out of his hands. These are all my notes. Drives it without strain. Okay. Then shows ability. He's got some magic in him, man. Like arm angles. You know that Notre Dame throw. If you want to go Notre Dame, check out my. The Notre Dame throw, then that Miami Throw, right. Play 28 of that game. 309 left in the second quarter. Eduardo, I know you're our clip masters back there weaving and spinning things up. If you want to get that clip. He's rolling to his left, the arm angle, the wrist flick and on the line, the left rail receiver coming back. Beautiful throw. Okay. Knows when to layer it too. Not just all fastballs and crazy stuff. Knows when to layer it. Very impressed with overall ball placement. Natural. He's just naturally accurate. Okay. Wide receivers do not help. I don't know what. I don't even care about the completion percentage and all that stuff. Like there's a lot of plays on tape where the receiver. Again, we said that with Jackson. Dart too. Whether it's drops or not being in the right place or. Or flattening out routes when they shouldn't, those sorts of things. Eyes, feet, trigger. I kept writing that. Like just his eyes with. With his feet. Quick trigger. When he decides really like that. And then he gets to top gear in a hurry. Most dangerous runner. I'm not saying most elusive does. I'm not saying he creates the most because I don't believe that. I think Ward does it very well. I think Shador does it very well. Dart does it pretty well as well. But when he takes off to run, he scoots faster than Ward. Sanders and Dart now can be a little bit careless with the football. Okay. I think he's putting a governor on his decisions is going to be important for him in the next level. But for the most part, I thought processing quickly and going through his reads and doing the right things. And also you've got the age and the durability and the medical check for the combine and maybe a recheck are going to be really important for him because you had three season ending injuries, two clavicles, one fibula. All right, go ahead.
- [12:19]
B
A little bit of pushback to start off with I still think Dart's a little bit of a better runner. I'll take him as a runner, and I will say that. And I guess this isn't really pushback, because I do agree a lot with what you're saying, but one of the things you love about him is one of the things that should scare the hell out of you. And you saw it Notre Dame throw, which is he is fearless and he will, he, he seems to have no regard for personal safety. He could care less. And when you have that injury history, there are times I'm like, man, you cannot take that kind of a shot. Yeah. The flip side of it is the talent is, is obvious. And I also, One other thing I will say, I get it, what you're saying about the receivers. There, there was times that they didn't help.
- [13:06]
A
He had Jacori Brooks.
- [13:08]
B
Brooks and Colin Lacy are pretty good dudes, man, and they've made some big plays for him. So I think, I thought his supporting cast was all right. All of that said big picture. I'm nitpicking because I like to nitpick with you. I just like to pick at you a little bit.
- [13:21]
A
That's, that's the beauty of, of how our process works, hon. Like, we joke about it a lot, but, like, there's got to be checks and balances. And sometimes I'll like, fully admit I get, I get crazy. And I, I, I like, go all in on a guy for a minute, then have some time to, like, re, refocus, reframe it. We have these conversations. It's helpful, right? And we, we come to a, I think a very solid ground at the end of the process. But this is the first time we've ever done this.
- [13:49]
B
Right.
- [13:50]
A
Normally I'm doing TV in December for a mock draft in the, in the past, in my previous career. And then I'm, we're watching tape and I do a few days at the Senior bowl. Then I come back, I'm watching tape in the shadows, which I've loved, but now we're, we're doing, we're providing for our audience, like, real time. This is like, you're getting to see the process, the good, the bad, the ugly, the crazy brain, all the stuff. And so people love it or they'll hate it and they can move on. Yeah, this is, these are the conversations we normally have over the phone. I'm telling you to look something up, I'm writing down notes, we're talking about tape, all that stuff. So I, I, I think it's the beauty of our process to be honest with you. Even though it it can feel disjointed or it can feel argumentative at times.
- [14:35]
B
Yeah one of the things I did like and it correct me if I'm wrong but I remember talking to you when we got down to mobile and I was like keep an eye on him because I like the way he throws the ball and I like the way he moves but I like you like same boat as you need to do more work on him. But from what I've seen on Intrigued and I remember you in the first day scene. I don't know like not bad. Didn't have a bad day. I don't know and then and then day two was oh okay. Now I'm starting to see more Day 3 It would seem he seemed like he was one of those players that progressed over the week in Mobile which is always a good sign to me that this is a guy consistently getting better with each practice. Again I can't argue with on the talent but you know where I'm going with this. You know what I'm going to ask you is are you what are we looking at here Are you know we just talked about dart is in this in the conversation with Sanders for quarterback two I'm not asking you to put are is has he entered the chat is Tyler Schuck entered the chat as a potential quarterback three Obviously listen to I'll say this while you're thinking no combine the combine medical is important for every player.
- [15:40]
A
That's what I'm so it's gonna be right now so you want do you want to pausing because I'm not pausing because I don't have a a strong answer on it because I do right the the age less so but when comparing to a situation like Jackson Dart it needs to be kept into consideration because you got one guy who's who's turning 22 on who's turn who's who's going to be under 22 younger than 22 at the combine 30 plus starts and a QBR this final season of 80 or above. Right. And then you got another guy who's turning 25 on draft weekend and who's had three season ending injuries. So here's my here like here's my straight up answer going off of last year's tape dart versus last year's tape shuck. I don't think there's much of a difference between the two and I think an argument here we go. Yep. Honest to God could be made that shuck might Be slightly better.
- [16:46]
B
Interesting.
- [16:47]
A
Okay, now they're like the medical and the age are, are factors. Here's the thing, like we spend so much time on QB1, QB2, QB3, QB4. What round are they going? Let's have re. Let's have real conversations. If you tell me he's going to go play for McVeigh or O'Connell, even though that's not a realistic situation with J.J. mcCarthy.
- [17:13]
B
Right.
- [17:14]
A
Or I mean we, we know that. We all know the names. There's five, six places in the league, maybe seven, eight now where if one of these two end up or throw Shador in there. Throw can. I mean all of these guys. This is not Jaden Daniels. This is not Caleb Williams. Despite what happened as a rookie. This is not Drake May. Okay, agree. Drake May did not have a good supporting cast. Drake May did not have great, great coaching. You can argue that, right? Van Pelt, but he still had success and you still see the, the brilliance. Now Chicago did a number on Caleb, but Caleb we knew was going to need certain things in order to succeed. He needed a Patrick Mahomes type early career path to have that kind of quick arc in year two. And hopefully he'll get that with Ben Johnson. We're gonna, we're about to find out. Okay, so this is not that class. All right? This, it's just not. Michael Pennix had most of the year. JJ sat out with an injury. Pennix had most the year to, to sit back and learn and develop behind the scenes before he was put in there and looked pretty good. But like I'm. No one's ready to stamp anything good, bad or, or you know, anything around those. And Bo Nicks had a great situation. Right? So like this, these conversations are more equivalent in my mind to JJ Penix and Bo than they are to the first three last year. Okay. So it. So much of it matters where these guys go. So I'm not that worried about like is, is Shador going to come off the board before Dart, before Shock? Like it's, it's. Where do they land? Is it. Is it the right environment for them? Is it the right system for them? I'd love to see dart and shuck with a guy like McVeigh. I mean all of them. But like, I just think that they would fit that system. I think like the west coast principles that. I don't know, I just, I can envision it with a Kevin O'Connell. Like look at what we saw. Sam Darnold last year. So that's where I am More we could throw up the quarterback rankings. I played with them a little bit, and they're going to continue to fluctuate, and we got to find out the medical and all that stuff. But I've got him squarely at 4 significant. Better. Significantly better grade than the rest of the guys. Jalen Melro, I still like.
- [19:43]
B
I.
- [19:44]
A
It's the hardest evaluation in this class, but there's. There's talent there. But ahead of Will Howard, Quinn Ewers, Kyle McCord, Dylan. Dylan Gabriel, and Riley Leonard. I like that's a big jump from. For us to make. For me to make. So. So, like, it's. It's less about, would you take Dart? Would you take Chuck? At this point, it's more about where they wind up landing and also that I am. I am now firmly in the camp that that's the top four, and there's nothing, unless it's catastrophic or completely unforeseen that will change. Those four quarterbacks, Ward, Sanders, Dart and Chuck being the top four quarterbacks on my board, when we get to the last weekend in April, I don't disagree.
- [20:29]
B
I mean, just watch the Notre Dame tape. If, if you're out there and you want to see what kind of player this kid this kid is, just watch the Notre Dame tape. To me, there. There's. There's a couple throws that you'll see. You'll see the one that he gets hit right in the teeth and he drops the arm and. And makes the play in the red zone. There's another one. He drops the ball over the top on a fade. He moves around really well in that game. Again, killed the Senior bowl process in my mind. I don't disagree with that. I. You know, there's some arguments I have further down the board, and I think at some point. I. I get what you're saying. I get what you're saying is, is a guy worth it? Well, if he goes to McVeigh, I get it. But what my. In my mind, what I'm thinking is, how high is that third quarterback gonna go? You know, you think start with a two. So if Tennessee and Cleveland take a quarterback or Tennessee and the Giants take a quarterback, and two are off the board. And let's just say for now, because of the way the discussions evolved, those two are Ward and Sanders. Are you comfortable taking a dart or a shock if you're the Raiders? Is it that early? Because now we're talking about maybe this, this quarterback class. I think what we're essentially saying at this point in the last couple of weeks. And, and really, I think it's been going this way for a longer time. Maybe not as weak as we thought it was. Maybe it's not. It's. When you're in the shadow of that class last year, it affects perception. And I think that it's good and it's healthy to sit here and say, instead of sitting here and saying, oh, this class is just as good as last year, it's just not as good. Okay, we understand that doesn't mean that it's a bad class. It just means that it's not as good as last year. And maybe there's some, some players in here that, that are worth, you know, taking a longer look at.
- [22:08]
A
In a perfect world, and we'll wrap it up on this. In a perfect world, these quarterbacks would all wind up, I don't know, mid, late first to like early mid second. And, and, and again, it's not about like, I don't, I don't and you don't. We, we weren't raised on grading for round. We're raised on grading for pro potential. What do they project to be and in some instances, how quickly do they project to be there? Right?
- [22:40]
B
Yeah.
- [22:41]
A
And, and then, you know, as we work through our, our grading scale and had to make it easy for people like, you know, we don't have six threes and six ones like most teams in the league. We had to make it more, you know, easily, easily understood by, by an audience at ESPN for so many years. Right? That we did. They asked for a top, you know, one, you know, 30 to 100 scale. And so like, yeah, 90s would, would for us it was a 95, 96 is perennial Pro bowl type, you know, player projects as that. For them, it's like that's early first round, you know, so. But to me, all these guys are, are mid to late first to early to mid second because you, because you're drafting them without as much pressure. You're drafting them knowing that they all in different ways need a little bit of work. We know that that's it. You don't feel as certain that they're ready to, to start right away or that they're absolutely in your mind going to be that starter. So that's where the draft grading comes in. When I talk to a scout, he says it's a, you know, 63 and talking about like, you know, solid starter, all, all that, whatever the, the range is, I'd have to look at it again. I've got in my, my notes, but it's it's graded on that. And, and that is. Has it built in. Like, we don't think he's ready right away or he projects his, you know, as developmental or he's he's going to be a DPR as a rookie, as a pass rusher, designated pass rusher or he's going to be a, you know, sub package corner or those sorts of things, special teams guy. All those are built and cooked in to a grade. And so when we get here and the audience wants to know like who's Q QB1, QB2, where are they going? I get it. That's. That's what we do. But I also am saying, like for the benefit of all these guys, I'd and it's probably not going to happen with Cam Ward. It's probably not going to happen with Shador. By the sounds of things, they're probably going to go in the top 10 picks. But I think you might be better off getting them late. First, a team like I don't know if Pittsburgh or not or, or early second, where the pressure's not on and you got a year to develop and see where they are. Right. So that's where I am with that. All right, let's transition running backs.
- [24:57]
B
Let's go.
- [24:58]
A
Yeah, mentioned I did a lot of tape work in the last 40. I mean we've been doing it and building it up, but trying to like the assignment was let's. We're not going to have all the answers tomorrow. We still have the, the combine workouts, still have pro days, still have medical, all the character stuff. We still have a lot of tape still to watch. But I wanted for for you and I to do as much tape on the running backs and start to stack our boards a little bit more correctly and also get a feel of like, all right, what's this back going to provide in the NFL? Not everyone's the workhorse every down back. There's a lot of productive damn good running backs in the NFL who do one or two things really well and work in a rotation. That's where the league is has gone in a lot of cases. Not all. But this year's running back class has been talked about since we started this show on October 22nd. It's been talked about throughout the process. It's been talked about by just about everyone. I've heard. We're all in agreement. Finally, everyone's in agreement. NFL, from NFL scouts to us to social media, everyone's in agreement is one of the best running back classes ever. Right? It's stacking up to be. And so I wanted to do a quick history lesson. Okay, let's go. 20. 2017 was considered the best running back class.
- [26:16]
B
I was going to bring up this class too. Yep.
- [26:18]
A
Right.
- [26:19]
B
Yeah.
- [26:19]
A
2011. 2017 had 30 running backs taken. 2011 was also pretty darn good. 29 backs taken. If you want to go old school, if you're an old school person, watching, you know, watching or listening on YouTube, watching Spotify, watching or listening Apple for the podcast and more. And we appreciate all your support. I can't say it enough but please, please support us any way you can with subscribing, liking, spreading the word. If you're old school though, 1998 was pretty damn good too. I'll rip through them. 2017, 201730 running backs were taken. Recognized by most people as the best running back class ever. Debatable. It had Leonard Group, Leonard Fornette, Christian McAffrey. But. But it's also important to note most of these guys were second, third and beyond. Okay. Cook, Dalvin Cook, second round pick Joe Mixon, second round pick Alvin Kamara was a third round pick. Kareem Hunt, third round pick Deontay Foreman, James Connor, Samaj P. Ryan, all the way down to Chris Carson. Remember Chris Carson, seventh round pick?
- [27:31]
B
Yeah.
- [27:32]
A
Really good run for a little While.
- [27:34]
B
Was a 4th round pick in that class.
- [27:35]
A
Yeah. And I, I didn't want to write down everyone but yes.
- [27:38]
B
Yeah.
- [27:39]
A
29. Sorry. 2011 had Ingram, remember marking of the Saints traded up for him. Right. Like big time if I, if my memory serves me. But Ingram was the only first round pick there. But 28 other running backs got taken in the first round. And the reason I say this is because I think there's going to be some similarities with this year' class. But that year beyond the first round was DeMarco Murray, Steven Ridley or Stefan Ridley, Vereen Powell, Jaqu. Right.
- [28:12]
B
Yeah.
- [28:12]
A
But there were also a lot of non factors in that class.
- [28:15]
B
Right.
- [28:15]
A
And you go back to that old school class. I just want to. I just love mentioning some of these old names. Curtis Enis, Fred Taylor, Robert Edwards, John Avery, John Richie, Aman Green, Robert Hul, Michael Pitman, Curtis Alexander Fu Matu Maala, Fred Beasley. That was a damn good class too. All right.
- [28:34]
B
I wonder how many listeners are like who are those guys?
- [28:37]
A
I know, I know. But that's the backdrop. And, and here's why I wanted to talk about 2017 and I got some. I'm gonna make you really happy. M. I didn't even practice this or. I didn't even send you a text or let you know when. You're right. You're right. You're right. You're absolutely right about everything. I've watched Omari and Omari and Hampton. I've watched Travion Henderson. I've watched Caleb Johnson. I've watched Ashton Genti. I've watched Judkins and Scatterboo and Harvey and James, all those guys, but I haven't. This is the first time I took the time to go and go back to back to back and rotate. Omarion Hampton is absolutely, without question, undoubtedly, undoubtedly the second best running back in this class. And there probably should be a little bit more of a discussion about. He's not that far off. I'm not. Genti's the number one guy. I get. Omarion Hampton is an absolute freak. And I want to get into all that with you. So my rankings have changed, but my point is on this, yes. And they will not, and they will not change back again unless something catastrophic or unforeseen occurs. Henderson may be the second best, the second back taken in the draft. I don't care. I think Omari and Hampton is special. When I start stacking the tape, there's a difference. He does it all. We'll get into it. But. But the reason I bring this up is I go back to 2017. I think Ashton Genti can be something similar in the same ballpark as Christian McCaffrey.
- [30:16]
B
Yep.
- [30:16]
A
Their versatility, their run style, their body types. There's not a big difference between the two. Okay, so he's the Christian McCaffrey of the class, if you will. I think Omarion Hampton is a better. I don't want to say better. How do I frame this? I think he's lighter on his feet and he doesn't need the Runway than Fournette needed.
- [30:37]
B
Yeah.
- [30:38]
A
Okay, here we go. So. So we've got our Fournette McCaffrey of the crew. Then you got. You got Cook and Mixon and Kamara. Trayvon Henderson can provide that. You know, I. I think I. I look at guys down the line like RJ Harvey, Caleb Johnson. So I'm just saying there's some similarities in that class. Okay. Where are you? What? Where did you running back to? Let me take you. But I wanted to start with just saying when you're right, I'm happy to admit it. And you were right. And I. I love Caleb Johnson. Travian Henderson. I envision him perfectly in a scenario like Jameer Gibbs had. Like Devon Hn has Had, you know, a little bit. I envision that perfectly for. For Travion Henderson. And so his value as a top 40ish pick will. Will be there. But when you're talking about guys who will transcend, who will just work, who can be the workhorse. I, I think. I think Jinty and Hampton are the. Are clearly the most complete backs in this class.
- [31:49]
B
I agree. I mean, I. I've said it before. I think Hampton's Joe Mixon, which is interesting because he was in that two 2017 class. Yeah, he's not the we. I mean, Joe Mixon was an absolute weapon in the passing game when he was at Oklahoma. I don't think Hampton has been quite that level, but I think he has a. He has the tools to get there. I think he's going to be great. I think that for me, Genti is more of a Kamara. I see him more as a Kamara than a McCaffrey. But again, splitting hairs. I actually some of the. It's very interesting that some of the comps that I came up with. Cam Scatter, James Connor. I see Cam Scatter. When I see James Connor kind of flipping the script on that one is that James Connor wasn't a great receiver at pit, but really developed into one once he got to the pro level. Big backs, tough to tackle, versatile. I think Cam Scatterboo reminds me of James Connor. I mean, it's interesting that you can go into these and start comparing these players. And then again, I'm. I'm kind of all over the place. I'm. I'm trying to figure out how many of these guys. I don't think more than one goes in the first, but I think as many as three could I, you know, and then you're looking.
- [32:54]
A
I don't disagree. That's that. Yeah, perfectly stated. Well, just real quickly, if FanDuel. FanDuel's probably gonna set it at one.
- [33:05]
B
Right?
- [33:06]
A
Right. Maybe one and a half. So you're forced to take the under with just one being Genti, the over. If. If either Hampton or. And what's interesting here now, going into the conversations, it's not that I don't get a lot of love about Omari and Hampton. It's. I just haven't talked to people who have like asked me about it or it has come up. So I'm gonna have to start throwing it out there and getting feelers as we get a little closer. But the conversations have been about some of these other backs like the Scatter Boos, the Harveys. The Martinez's like guys from area scouts who had that area or cross checking. Those are the conversations I'm having with, with scouts. And then I told you like a personnel director we talked to. He just like wanted to talk about Henderson and Judkins, but, but Henderson. So. But. But Hampton's kind of like flying under the radar a little bit and I don't, I don't know.
- [34:04]
B
Yeah.
- [34:05]
A
And maybe he was. And a lot of times when guys are flying under the radar and no one's talking about it, it's because they just don't want a lot.
- [34:12]
B
No one wants you to know. Yeah.
- [34:14]
A
Yeah. And that's not like this isn't a big trade secret, but it's just interesting how we like talk about Genti so much and Henderson and Judkins so much and Scatter Boo. And I get it, they were playing in the College Football Playoff and there was a tension on them. But Hampton is just kind of not catching that same love and drive nationally. And I'm, I'm interested to see how this plays out. To answer your question, I think absolutely. Based off the talent we could. It wouldn't shock me at all if two or three running backs came off the board with Henderson and. Or Judkins, right. And. Or Hampton. But I also look at this defensive front class like the edges, right? Interior defensive lineman. The offensive line class isn't great, but there's still a handful of them. You got a couple interior guys, you got like three or maybe four tackles. You got two or three quarterbacks. Like, I just don't know because we, we keep talking about this and I'm principled, man. I would do it, do it. I wouldn't do it. Like I'm taking these defensive linemen at premium picks on premium positions. However, it won't shock me, right?
- [35:28]
B
I mean, you're looking at Dallas to Gentee to Dallas seems like a very popular pick, right? You're thinking Minnesota. Does Minnesota maybe take one? Does Kansas City get there and say, man, if we had an Amari and Hampton in this offense, you know, I know we have other needs and I know there's other places we could go right here. Does Kansas City maybe. Did the Raiders or Browns trade back into the. And trade back into the end of the first round and maybe get one? It's.
- [35:54]
A
I wrote down this list because I figured there's going to be a lot of people, a lot of people tuning into the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, wherever you get your podcasts that are fans of different NFL teams now. I feel like the vast majority of our, our audience was college football for a long time and now.
- [36:12]
B
Right.
- [36:12]
A
Just like we're transitioning, I think our audience is hopefully the numbers would, would concur where we're adding more of an NFL audience now. So I came up with a list of these teams and again I, I think more than 20 teams could, maybe 25 teams could wind up drafting a running back in the seven round process because we could have around 30 running backs taken if it's anything like 2017, 2011, 1998. So I'm not limiting, limiting it to this. But what I'm saying is these are the teams that I ex that I, I won't be surprised that I think are probably going to draft a running back in the first three certainly four rounds. Cowboys with Rico Dodo as a free agent. Deuce Vaughn's their backup. Bears DeAndre Swift and Roshan Johnson. Vikings UFAs Aaron Jones and Cam Acres. Okay. Browns Nick Chubb, Jerome Ford. Patriots Ramondi Ramandre Stevenson and Antonio Gibson trying to like take I just there needs an upgrade. That whole offense just needs a kick in terms of playmakers and difference makers. Okay, then most the AFC west, maybe all of it if you're right on Kansas City. But the other teams in the AFC west, you get the Broncos, which Ofonte Williams and Audric estimate both free UFAs, both under after free undrafted UFAs. Right. Unrestricted free agents Sincere McCormick and UFAs Amir Abdullah and Alex Madison for the Raiders. The Chargers, unrestricted free agent J.K. dobbins. Like that's my list. So that's the Cowboys, Bears, Vikings, Browns, Patriots, Broncos, Raiders, Chargers are all teams that could be in that market in the first three rounds for a lot of these guys. Okay. Correct. No, I'm not saying that by any stretch. Every idea starts with a problem. Warby Parker's was simple. Glasses are too expensive. So they set out to change that. By designing glasses in house and selling.
- [38:34]
B
Directly to customers, they're able to offer prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable.
- [38:40]
A
Warby Parker glasses are made from premium materials like impact resistant polycarbonate and custom acetate. And they start at just $95, including prescription lenses. Get glasses made from the good stuff. Stop by a Warby Parker store near you.
- [39:00]
B
You're sitting there and you're like, hey, you know, we can get Dylan Sampson on day two. What are we doing? You know, like, and I know Dylan Sampson's not Hampton, but. But if you watch Dylan Sampson, he's pretty damn good, man. I wouldn't mind getting a Dylan Sampson or, you know, Damen Martinez or, you know, whoever, whoever you like. I'm watching DJ Giddens and I'm. I'm texting you eclipse of him last night, and I'm like, they're all so good. They're just all so good. I don't know what to do. They're all so good. The combine is going to be very important for this class. How these guys work out, how they check out medically, what we hear about interviews. This is going to be. It's. I mean, anytime you're part of the draft process, it's competitive. This is going to be a competitive group.
- [39:40]
A
And I want people to understand, like, at cornerback, it's. It's hugely important what you run and what your arm length is. That combination, like, it's more important. The, the 40 time and arm length combination is more important probably than any two traits that are measured or timed for any position. And there are other positions, like wide receiver, obviously, and. And different. Well, when we get to the combine, we have the measurements that matter list that mentioned. I spent years developing and crafting for each position. We'll walk through all of it. We'll have a lot of fun with it. It. But my point is at running back, like, there's no make or break. We all know, like, Emmett Smith didn't run a good 40. Like, all that stuff. There's no make or break number. There's no, like, critical factor that you have to be for the most part. Right. But when you got so many running backs. And let's throw up this list. I have. I had 36 guys with draftable grades last night. Men. And I haven't. We haven't even gotten the combine list. I'm sure there's a. There's always two or three that we just don't. You know, we haven't done the tape on yet, but I've got 36 guys with a 32 grade or higher, meaning late. Late seventh round. Okay. When you've got that number of guys, and if you're watching on YouTube or on Spotify, you can see our. Our list of the top 10 running backs there and I'll get to in a second, But I just want to have. Have that as a backdrop when you've got all these guys after Ginty and Hampton and Henderson and Johnson and to a certain degree, maybe Judkins, or I'd say after maybe Judkins, but you might even want to include him in the list. We talked and I, I like the, the phrasing, put them into buckets. We talked to Eric Dasa, the GM of the Ravens. That's how he, their phraseology, if you will. Let's get them into buckets, meaning what, what's our grade? And then we got to sort them out within buckets. And he even admitted, he readily admitted his, his, his cocktail as he called it, where like 124 or 140, whatever it was, ingredients go into this cocktail that they stir up. It spits out information. He's, he told us that, you know, I, I, he told us some stuff off, off air that I don't want to disclose. But essentially there's a process and, and they feel comfortable with certain, you know, getting guys into buckets and then they use assistance inside that bucket. So this year inside of a grade bucket could be four, five, six running back. Okay.
- [42:03]
B
Yeah. Now what do you do?
- [42:04]
A
And a lot of those things that go into those ingredients and I know fans got all worked up and excited about or disgruntled by or whatever. To me, just fascinating. Like even the Madden ratings, well, guess what? The Maddening ratings are based off of off of speed and, and workout numbers and, and also they have their own evaluation. So there's just so many different things. But the combine produces a lot of those official numbers. And so when you're creating a cocktail of information that goes into helping sort out guys on your board that you're going to wind up drafting that are within a grade spot in that bucket, if you will, it's critically important.
- [42:42]
B
Yeah. By the way, that that cocktail, that recipe, dacosta is always fine tuning it. And when you look at their record, you could anyone who's upset about the Madden ratings or saying anything about that, the way they pick players speaks for itself, man. I mean he's, he's saying after doing.
- [42:58]
A
This for years, there's 105, 140, whatever it was cocktail. That means it's, it's less than like a half, it's like a half a percent. Like.
- [43:07]
B
Right. And there, it's like any, anytime you make a drink at home or you make a, a dish at home or you're cooking, you're like, you know what.
- [43:13]
A
Drop a little bitters into it.
- [43:15]
B
I'm gonna do a little more salt, a little less garlic. Whatever you're, whatever you're doing, that's what they've done. They fine tune that process and you.
- [43:21]
A
Only, you only can fine tune it over years of data.
- [43:24]
B
Right.
- [43:25]
A
And, and and the projection, you know, and going back and looking three years later than five years later and seven years later, and second contracts and success in the league and all those things you don't, you know, and, and as players change and body types change and people get faster and bigger and stronger, like that's always going to be fine tuning. But with that, all that said, after looking at that board and knowing that Jinty, Hampton, Henderson, Johnson are likely to be the top four backs taken in whatever order people have them. Take me through some guys that are intriguing to you. Let's just talk.
- [44:00]
B
I. I feel like we haven't hit on Johnson enough. There's. I've got plenty, by the way. I just want to talk about Johnson really quickly because watching him, what I love about him is how instinctive he is as a zone runner. His ability, if he ends up on a team like San Francisco, one of these teams runs a stretch zone, watch out, because he's got the speed, the burst to get outside, but he's also got. He knows exactly when to stick his foot in the ground and get up field as a zone runner. And he doesn't need much of a. Of a. Of a gap. He gets through quickly. He's one of those dudes.
- [44:29]
A
I like him as an inside zone runner, too.
- [44:31]
B
Yeah, no, he's so quick through the hole between the tackles that you'll see a linebacker, maybe a safety closing on him, and he splits him and he's gone. Dave, Dave, you better take the right angle, man. You better be gap sound. Because if you're not, Caleb Johnson will. Will burn you. And I also like the way he runs behind his pads and finishes runs.
- [44:49]
A
You bet.
- [44:50]
B
He's gonna make you earn it. You're gonna. When you tackle him, he's gonna make you feel it. I mean, there's. There is a bunch of guys. We'll talk about Giddens real quick. I call him the human glitch. His change of direction is his, is his superpower. Right. You see him in one spot, DJ.
- [45:04]
A
Giddens from Kansas State. We've got kind of a I gotta get better about. No, no. You're here to help me on pronunciations and, and be my checks and balances. I'm here to, to frame it for you. Good.
- [45:16]
B
So he's the human glitch. I mean, you blink, you, you look at him, and he's in one spot. You blink, he's in another spot. And that's, you know, that's his superpower. But one of the other things that I love And I love this about backs. There's a lot of good backs in terms of vision and instincts in this class, really good vision and instincts overall in this class. But he makes late cuts. And why that's important is guys who press the line of script and make late cuts make it very difficult for defenders to shed in the correct direction. And he does a great job. If he sees that a defender's in the A gap and he knows he's going into the B gap, he doesn't just run to the B gap. He will press like he's going to hit the A gap so the defender doesn't try to fight over that block and then late cut into the B gap. He's excellent at doing that. In terms of a pure runner, he's one of the better backs in this class. I do want to see some development as a, as a receiver and a pass blocker.
- [46:05]
A
What's his. Do you have his, his measurables on you?
- [46:07]
B
I don't. I think it's, I think he's around 612 12.
- [46:11]
A
Yeah, he's, he's, that's the thing. Remember the, on say what Thursday? So Tuesday I was saying Giddens is one of the guys like, yeah, keep. I've got, I've got my eye on him because I'm catching like I, I watched another tape of him and the thing that stood out to me is you look at the way he moves and you wouldn't think that size. And that's why I wanted to get.
- [46:35]
B
He's 61212. Also, one of the things I'll say to get into the weeds a little bit. How, how I watch tape. You tell me if you do it differently. Obviously, the tight copy when you're watching running backs is great because you're seeing how blocks set up. You're seeing how they're setting up their blocks and all that stuff.
- [46:50]
A
When you watch so much better when, when it's behind the two two out of the four quarters, when it's behind the back 100. Yeah.
- [46:58]
B
I will tell you that it's important to watch the wide copy. And I'm sure you agree to get a feeling for burst in speed, especially 100, especially when you get between the 40s. Because now that angle you're looking the, the camera's usually set up at the 50, so you're getting a better angle of where, how they accelerate. Same thing with defensive linemen, same thing with tight ends, same thing with wide receivers. So between the 40s, make sure you get the wide Copy both Johnson and Giddens. When I watch those that wide copy will. I'll be interested to see what their 10 yard splits are because they look explosive. They look really quick. Yeah, same thing.
- [47:31]
A
Freaking Hampton. When he. Yeah, when he go when he.
- [47:35]
B
Yeah, at 220.
- [47:37]
A
I know. Yeah. The problem with Giddens is I love the guy, okay. And, and I've got it. I've got to finish up. I've got.
- [47:47]
B
Who do you move him ahead of?
- [47:48]
A
I got him at 14.
- [47:51]
B
Right.
- [47:51]
A
And I love him. And I, and I, and I previewed this last week saying like Giddens is, is one of my guys and I got him at 14. You know, that's the fun part of this class and it's the unbelievably challenging part of this class. If you're watching on YouTube and, and Spotify, you'll see the graphic coming up right now. It's picks, it's running back rankings 11 through 28. Look at that list, man. We already gave you Genti and Hanton and Henderson, Judkins and Johnson and Scatterboo and Harvey and James and all those guys. And now I'm giving you, I'm providing a list for you of Burchard Smith, who had unbelievable breakout year, is a, you know, great pass catcher. Former receiver Damien Martinez. I'll get to him a minute. Devin Neil, who have bragged on his run style and instincts and feel. DJ Giddens, we just gave men, just gave you more on just how quick and agile and the cutting ability for his size. Woody Marks had a really good week at the Senior Bowl. Trevor etn. I think everyone knows etn. Marcus Yarns a great week at the Senior Bowl. Moved him up because he catches the ball well and he's an absolute burner. I can't wait to see what he runs at the combine. I mean, the list goes on and on. You got, you got, you got Tootin from Virginia Tech, Khalel Mullings from Michigan. Jaden blew some of the big plays that he had for Texas and his explosiveness as a, as a rotating back who can help in the past game. So it's just loaded, man. It's loaded. Couple other guys I want to get to and just keep rotating in whoever you want to talk to if you want to jump on this RJ Harvey, I think RJ Harvey is in that second tier and that second tier for me includes, if we're talking Ginty again, you can break up the tier within and move the buckets around. Create if you want Two buckets for Genty Hand Genty and then Hampton, Henderson, Johnson or however you want to phrase it. But after those four, let's just call it that. I think Harvey's kind of in that next tier. I've got Judkins, Scatterboo Harvey ahead of Jordan James, who I also love, and Laquin Allen, who, who's unbelievable catching the football, the backfield for his size and how rocked up he is. And Dylan Sampson, how great of a back he is. Right. I've got him kind of in that second tier. Here's why. Team captain, unbelievable leader. I just talked to, talked to one of the, one of the two scouts I talked to just raving about this guy. Okay. Shorter. Yeah, he's, he came into 5, 7 and 3 quarters but tightly packed frame. His run style and traits. I absolutely adore this guy's feet. That just sounds disgusting. I apologize. But he's electric. Yeah, yeah, exactly. He's got that quick pick and slide really good patience and vision. Like you can have all the quickness and all the cutting ability and that lateral quicks and, and all that stuff, but if you don't sense it and you don't have the patience to wait for.
- [51:01]
B
Gets where you're going. You gotta go, you gotta go in the right direction, man.
- [51:05]
A
Right. Just excellent jump cut acceleration off the cut, stop start quickness. He's not overpowering. He's just not just average contact balance, undersized back. He's not going to be that guy.
- [51:19]
B
I think he's a little stronger than that. I like him, I like his. I think he's got some pop.
- [51:24]
A
Yeah, but I'm. When we're talking contact balance, I'm comparing it to like Ginty Hampton.
- [51:29]
B
Yeah. Not okay.
- [51:30]
A
Johnson, Judkins, scatter, boo. You know what I mean? So by comparison you're not getting that? I'm saying. I don't know, I just.
- [51:44]
B
You said Aaron Jones on X, right?
- [51:46]
A
You thought I, I see a lot of Aaron Jones. I even, I even went back and popped in some tape of Aaron Jones and it's the same stuff. It's the vision, the patience. When you, when he senses it, he's, he's gone in a flash. And then, and then the ability to make quick cuts. Now both with Aaron Jones and this guy and Harvey, unbelievable quickness and first level burst. But there's a, there's a second gear that's missing and I, Yeah, I've heard that he's going to run 4, 4, 5 somewhere in that range on tape. I think he's 4, 4, 8, 45 0. I, I, I went back and looked. I think Joe Aaron Jones was 4, 5, 6. You gotta double check that. But he was, I think that's right.
- [52:28]
B
Actually, I looked at that, I looked at that last night. It is 4, 5, 6.
- [52:31]
A
So, so I was trying to compare.
- [52:32]
B
Him to other guys.
- [52:33]
A
Yeah, there's never a perfect comp, but it's a damn good comp, man. It really is.
- [52:38]
B
He, I, I love, I, I kind of looked at Maurice Jones, Drew, because he's got that build, but again, he's not that powerful as Jones. I don't think he's Jones. You ran a 4, 39 and I don't think this kid's gonna run a 439. But it's that same, same build. And I do think he has a little bit more pop than you're talking about, but I get it.
- [52:54]
A
Okay. Damien Martinez, he's a, he's just, to me, he's like a slow burn, right?
- [53:03]
B
Yeah.
- [53:04]
A
Just so efficient. There's nothing I don't, when I look at him, I don't see one like dominating, overwhelming trait. I just see a bunch of really good traits. Again, the vision, the patience. What I like most about him is he senses a crease. It shows the lateral agility, that body control and then quick burst to explode through the first level. He's another guy. Pick slide. He's not as quick and he doesn't have that foot agility that that, that RJ has. But, but I, I see that just that, that quick slide, the quick lateral stuff that he's able to do. I now he hits it hard, man. He's not over, he's not overpowering necessarily like those bigger, but like, but he's got the contact balance. He's gonna wear you down. He just, like, he's just a damn good runner. Where I, I feel like the more, at least for me, the more I watched, the more I gain appreciation for this cat. Right. Just does all the right things, hits the right creases, doesn't dance a lot, gets what's there and maybe a couple yards more. Yeah.
- [54:12]
B
Remember we saw, we saw him in Mobile and he weighed 226 pounds. And this is a compliment, we're like, how he, how is he? £226. He looks like a 215 back. He can't, I don't know where he keeps the weight. Well, he, I mean, he just, there is no, I mean he's not soft in any way. I mean he just, he carries that weight super well. And again, I think I just keep. You know, I look at him as a gladiator. He just absolutely wants. He wants the ball late in the game. He wants to be the guy that's going to suffocate you with that 10 minute drive at the end of the game. Give me 12 carries. 10 carries. Whatever it takes. I'm gonna end this game right now.
- [54:50]
A
Anyone else you want to get to here?
- [54:52]
B
I think I got to go for my guy. Tuck. I gotta talk. I gotta represent. Cam. Scatter Boo for Tucker. Every time we talk about a running back, Tucker's on there like Scaboo, Scaboo, Scaboo. How are we low on Scaboo? Scaboo second most. I'm digging into the PFF stats now. Okay.
- [55:09]
A
Okay.
- [55:09]
B
Watch out. This could be a good thing or a bad.
- [55:11]
A
Yeah, I'm gonna have to. I'm gonna have to be your governor now.
- [55:13]
B
Scatter Boo top. He's top six for backs. After contact, he's higher than that. I don't remember the exact one, but second most missed tackles. And he had 45 explosive runs, 10 yards or longer. You look at that tax performance, how good he is as a receiver, the strength, the power, it's. I know how good this class is and I know that we have Scatter Boo or I have Scatter Boo. Pretty high. You have him pretty high. I still feel like maybe we're low on him. I don't know how. I just. He. He might be in that.
- [55:43]
A
I actually moved him up slightly as I'm start. As I'm starting to watch everybody else.
- [55:49]
B
Yeah.
- [55:50]
A
I can tell you this. I talked to a scout this week who's. Who's bullish on him.
- [55:54]
B
Yeah.
- [55:55]
A
And loves a lot of other guys. And yet again, the second tier, as you're starting to kind of stack within that tier or bucket or whatever you want to call it, bullish on him. Loves Jordan James. Just looking to know. Loves Jordan James, loves Dylan Sampson. He had he cross check and had. Had the running back. So like a perfect person to talk to. Loves Harvey, loves Martinez, loves all those guys. But Scatter Boo was like. He was. He was bullish on him.
- [56:28]
B
Here I'm gonna give you a. What I think. I think is a sleeper. I don't know for NFL teams are probably like, yeah, we know who the kid is. But the Texas Tech running back, Taj brooks is. He's 229 pounds. He was at the east west game. I think I love his feet. Highly productive player. Highly productive player. We ran for 1500 yards in 11 games this year. He's got, it's a dangerous line to walk, right. He's got the patience of a, he doesn't catch the ball as well as a Le'Veon bell, but he's got that patience. He's got that patient running style and that's a fine line because that, that could turn into dancing real quick. But when you look at him as a guy, you can get in the late round, the size, the production, the feet for that size, that kind of size, he's a guy to keep an eye on too.
- [57:14]
A
Like it. There's just a lot of good backs.
- [57:17]
B
Man, there's so many.
- [57:18]
A
Yeah, it's going to be fun to see. I, I think you're right. And we, we predict this every year with certain positions and we're generally like within 5, 7, 10 picks of when a run's going to happen. You can always tell by like we do the three year tally, study trends on positions, not only like overall how many, how many players at a position are taken, but each round there's a trend. Belichick turned me onto this years and years and years ago. Told you the first dinner I had, he and Bill and, and, and Scott Pioli, myself, Belichick and Gary Horton who got, got us into this business, right, who had worked with Bill previously at Cleveland. I told you the first thing you told me is, is make sure you got to watch the matchups. Scouting is all about the matchups. Don't, don't, don't bog down on all these different tapes. Make sure you're watching the tapes that correlate against guys who have the talent level in the NFL. And then the second thing that he mentioned in that dinner of many things, but one, one other thing he mentioned, that dinner that, that led me to do this three year tally and to stick with it is that if you go back and look at the past three years because, because trends change, positions change, emphasis changes, the game changes. You'll get a feel when you're stacking a board of generally where guys are going to start coming off the board. Long winded reason for this response. I truly believe we'll see four backs in the top 50. I think it's going to be like hold, hold. And then all of a sudden we're going to see just a massive run kind of middle third round, right? The holding is going to occur early in the third. Where does that first one go? And all of a sudden you're gonna be like, I thought this running Back class was so good. We've only had five backs taken in 80 picks. You know, all of a sudden it's going to be like running back, running back, corner, wide receipt, running back, D line, Titan running. It's just going to be a. A run of all a bunch of these guys from LA Quint Allen to Jordan James to Scaboo to Dylan Sampson. Like, there's going to be a huge run on this position. All right, we're at an hour. We always do this. Let's kind of. Let's. Let's rip through a couple things and conversations that I've had recently. I just. I think it's important when we have conversations to obviously protect sources. But also I just. We got too much information not to give feelers. Kind of tease it a little bit as our process and for us to talk about it real quickly. Couple things that jumped out from conversations. The tight end group is. Is beloved. And we kind of. We knew that. But Warren's going real early. Colson Loveland's going earlier than maybe even people think. I think top 15. Okay.
- [60:08]
B
Wow.
- [60:09]
A
Yeah. Just saying. I could be wrong, but I'm just saying based off of information I'm having, Mason Taylor probably gets to round two, but like gonna come off early Friday night. Arroyo from Elijah Royo. Arroyo from Miami is going to be shortly thereafter. Gunner Helm from Texas has a lot of love in the league.
- [60:32]
B
Yeah.
- [60:33]
A
Gonna be a better pro. We said it. I mean, we literally said it, I think in one of our first two or three shows. And we've seen it all along. But getting reinforcement from talking to people in the league. I think Helm's kind of in that next. That is that next tier. If I was gonna say you love.
- [60:50]
B
Your tiers, but this third tier is the one that's really interesting to me because there's still a lot of good tight ends when you're getting.
- [60:56]
A
And I think so. So to that if the first tier is. Is Warren and Loveland the second tier is Taylor and Arroyo the third tier. And we're starting to talk maybe late second. I thought it was going to be third, but it may be late second. Okay. That third tier. I think it might start with Gunner Helm from Texas and I think the two other names that I. That I feel strongly about that I've gotten no push back on, let's put it that way. That are in that tier. I'm not saying limited to. I'm saying along with Helm. Gunner Helm from Texas in that third tier is Harold Fannin Jr. From Bowling Green and our guy, Terence Ferguson from Oregon. What say you?
- [61:37]
B
I like it. The. The Notre Dame tight end, Mitchell Evans. I'm interested to see if he's maybe in that group too. He obviously had the knee injury, but I thought he came on strong at the end of the year. He's a guy that I would keep in there, but I have all those guys that's. My next tier is Ferguson, Helm, Evans, Fannin. So it doesn't surprise me. I do have them a little bit lower. I'm like you. I. I had them end of third maybe. Maybe for a couple of them. Early fourth. But in terms of the top of the group, I think the Loveland. The Loveland news is good news because it's just a tough evaluation this year. Right? I mean, it's. When you go from JJ McCarthy and I know they ran the ball a lot in 20, 23. Don't. At me. I get it. But it was a. It was a different passing attack.
- [62:25]
A
At you. Good mensch.
- [62:27]
B
Tough for him to really kind of show what he does. But when you watch his tape and you watch the way he moves, I mean, there's a lot of NFL teams that can use a tight end like that. And especially if you're looking. And I'm not saying he's Brock Bowers. Here we go again. But he's that kind of a playmaker in the passing game. It. I think it's intriguing that he's moving up because he's that kind of a talent.
- [62:46]
A
So couple other things and I'm. Go ahead. Sorry.
- [62:50]
B
No, I got no problems with those. That. That grouping whatsoever.
- [62:55]
A
Defensive lineman. Let's. Let's dig in a little bit. Let's. Let's use this. Honestly, is. Is kind of a. A preview, a tease for. For next show. I think we're going to. It's time like, we. We just. We made a lot of headway with the running backs. We. I feel good about the. The top of the quarterback board at this point. I want to shift our focus next show If. If it works out where we really dive into these. These defensive linemen talking. The edge guys and interior defensive linemen. I've got right now. Jeez. 13 and I got 30 guys in the top 80 now. That's not right. 30 guys in the top. The defensive class goes deeper. Yeah. 30 guys in the top 100. 30 guys in the top hundred. 17 for edge rushers and 13 for interior defensive alignment. Here's some 32. Okay. Yeah, I'm gonna throw. So. So we're in the same Neighborhood. I'm gonna throw out some nuggets here and I'll start with the edges and I want to get your response on some things. Then we'll go to inside defensive lineman and get your response and then we'll. We'll be prepared next show to dive into it. Okay. Edge guys. Some things of note. Everyone count. Everyone agrees. Abdul Carter. Some have more love for. For Jalen Walker than Mikel Williams. Others don't. Williams is in kind of interesting. Get some different feedback. But I think we all agree on the talent. Shemar Stewart, who. I just love his power. I mean, we talked about it a lot. I don't have to. We'll. We'll get into it in more detail. I see a lot of potential. Not all love. Some love. Not all love. Where's the production been? Yeah, right. And some interesting. Like. Yeah, for every. For every this guy. And I don't want to spend, say specific names because then I'm kind of ratting out. But for every this guy, there's 10 other guys that come in the league with similar backgrounds, production. So it's easy. Yeah. You're going to sit in the draft meeting and. And throw out this name and that name. Those are the two names that always come up with guys like this. But like, what about the 20 other guys that. That didn't. That were similar? Okay. So just keep that in mind. Mike Green, everyone's good on James Pierce from. From Tennessee. A couple things that were interesting. Not nearly as much. Captain Jack Sawyer. Love as I know. As I thought from. From inside. From. From just a couple people I'm talking to JTT more. So couple names. Everyone agrees on Oladeo Oladejo. Is that right?
- [65:49]
B
Yeah.
- [65:50]
A
He's moving up fast. Keep an eye on that. The LSU guys are getting more love than I think. I think publicly. I'll just leave it at that. We'll get into it. We'll dive deeper. We'll do. We'll give our own evaluations. I don't want to get into specifics or where this person's saying that. I'm just saying the LSU guys, Savon Jones, okay, is absolutely getting more love than expected. And Braden Swinson, probably even slightly more love. Okay.
- [66:19]
B
Jones had a nice Senior Bowl.
- [66:21]
A
Very good Senior Bowl. That was. That was discussed. Very good Senior Bowl. But Swenson. And they're different players. One's a baseball, you know, a base defensive lineman. The others a true edge. Swenson is more 3, 4, outside backer traditionally, if you're gonna. But. But that Was in. Very interesting to me. It was driven home to me. Oh. As a Ruku bc.
- [66:46]
B
Yeah. For the right scheme. Right. He's not for everybody, but if he, if he's right for your scheme.
- [66:52]
A
Yeah, of course. A lot of love. Like a lot of love. Like maybe late first love.
- [67:00]
B
Wow.
- [67:00]
A
Yeah.
- [67:01]
B
Wow.
- [67:01]
A
Just throwing out there. What are your thoughts?
- [67:05]
B
I will say that listening to you and kind of looking around and seeing things, I'm almost certain that James Pierce is gonna go later than. Than he should. I, I have him as he's the third best. James Pierce Jr. From Tennessee.
- [67:20]
A
We'll go later than he should.
- [67:22]
B
Yeah. I think he's a top 10 pick. I think he's the third best edge rusher in this class. I think he's that good. And I think that people, if you start looking at the analytics and the win rate instead of looking at the sack numbers and then you look at the versatility and what he can do and then the tools, I think he's going to get a little bit of boost depending on what happens at the combine. I just, I, I just don't get why people aren't higher on him. I mean, I like Shemar Stewart, but I like, I like Pierce better. I like Pierce better than Walker because I think he's got a little bit better build. So that, that's all interesting to me. Jared Ivey is a guy, the Ole Miss edge. Jared Ivey, who I just can't stop loving. And I don't, I get it. The tape isn't always as good as it should be, but he's like, I look at him and I'm like, you're an NFL edge. He's an early second round guy or I think a early day two guy that people should keep an eye on that maybe isn't getting as much love as the other, as the other edges. And then Josiah Stewart, I thought you were going to mention from Michigan, he's a he. I mean, this is, I mean, here we go again, right? These groups that we're talking about, we can talk about how this class isn't great at quarterback and it's not great at wide receiver.
- [68:29]
A
I got news for you. The more, the more tape we're diving into, the more conversations I'm having. This is actually a damn good NFL draft class. It's just not, it's just not top loaded at quarterback and it's not top loaded with like five, six other guys that normally are in the class, like, like an Aiden Hutchinson or like Joe all, you know, like we're missing that. We're absolutely missing that. I got it. We got three guys at the top. I think everyone kind of agrees on right I mean certainly the top two I think obviously with Abdul Carter the edge from Penn State. Travis Hunter corner wide receiver from from Colorado. I look at it and I think Mason Graham is start like he's he's kind of to me planted himself with his tape this year different up there and and you're normally you've got four or five other guys kind of there but outside of that man the depth because of like nil and transfer portal and still the repercussions of COVID this class is so deep scouts are like literally like having conversations in their eyelids are closing. These poor guys man. The most underpaid people in the entire NFL. Billions and billions of dollars in this industry and we got an area scout leaving for three four months from his family for the vast majority of it and doing 30 players. One scout we talked to on the field Senior Bowl 30 players at Ole Miss. It used to be like 8, 9, 10 and to get the background, the medicals, the tape like and a bunch of those guys wind up going back but this class is absolutely loaded and it's going to be you're getting damn good football players and I just we say it every year and all that but like legitimately deeper than most class and like yeah third, fourth, fifth round range.
- [70:15]
B
Don't tell me you can't get better with this group. I mean your team can get significantly.
- [70:19]
A
Better with this group inside defensive lineman. We'll. We'll kind of end with this. Mason Graham is the obvious I There's more love for Kenneth Grant in the league based off of people I'm talking to than than Walter Nolan but Walter Nolan's still a first rounder. A lot of lot of mixed opinions on Derek Harmon but still mostly first round love after that. It was interesting. You know who's getting a lot of love and doesn't have a lot of like when you do your analytic studies in your in the PFF ultimate like his numbers for as a pass rusher are not great but Joshua Farmer, Florida State defensive tackle is getting a lot of love. TJ Sanders the three technique like his tape a lot but he in mixed bag and it could just be scheme wise and all of that but make a little bit mixed bag on him because there's been talk about maybe late first or I think he's more mid second based off the conversations he was kind of in that and if you're going down in tears. But clearly the top. I mean the top tier is Mason Graham in of himself. The second tier is kind of Kenneth Grant, Nolan Harmon. But Harmon's kind of lower on that tier than I would have than I maybe thought based off my tape study this year. But you and I watched Harmon too. There's. For as many great plays as there are, there's some stuff where you're like, is this guy truly elite? Elite. You know we can get into that next week. TJ Sanders. I said inconsistent. The guy. Two guys that I. That my conversations. They're getting a lot of love when we're talking about day two and earlier. Three guys. Sorry. Three. A lot of love. It's Alfred Collins, Texas. Yep, lot of love. Farmer, Florida State, who I just mentioned and Darius Alexander. Toledo coming off that Senior bowl and his tape. But Darius Alexander, I'm thinking more maybe second round than third. Late second than third. But we'll, we'll see how that all plays out.
- [72:19]
B
I will. I kind of want to save some of the bullets for our talk, but I'll say this right now. I don't think Derek Harmon's a top five defensive tackle in this class.
- [72:30]
A
I love it.
- [72:31]
B
I just, I don't see it. And there's other. There's other. I've got a bunch. This is gonna be interesting. I mean if the Kenneth Grant versus Walter Nolan is tools versus tape, in my opinion, I think that Grant's got some good tape, but he's. It's tools. He's. He is. If people don't know Kenneth Grant is a freak of an athlete, he is an absolute freak. And as a defensive line coach, I'd like to work with that. I would very much like for my team to draft that player. But if I'm watching the tape, I got Walter Nolan all day, every day. I just think he's a better player when you watch the tape. So that's an interesting one. But there is a. Between those two groups that might be.
- [73:10]
A
We.
- [73:10]
B
It might be a two hour pod. I mean there's a lot to talk about.
- [73:14]
A
I know it's a good problem to have. By the way, my quick teaser, I recognize he's not going to go until the third round. I'm going to plant my flag that the. The deep. The defensive tackle that may wind up providing the best value in the NFL for where he was drafted is Omar Norman lot.
- [73:34]
B
I knew it.
- [73:36]
A
I just knew it. Mention iron in the thick of it right now. Like this is my favorite. I'm literally. I'm getting ready. Like, all right, it's time to go to bed. I want to get up early. I get. And then it's like, all right, one more tape. Like, this is my favorite. It's, it's, it's crazy. It's chaotic. Like, I'd walk around and Marissa will be like, where are you? Or like, my kids. Like, it's, it's not normal, but it's, my God, I love it. It's like the energy every single day, waking up, ripping through tape, putting these rankings together, preparing for the show. Like, this is like, I just feed off this energy. We hope everyone watching and listening is appreciating it, shaking their heads at us a little bit. That's fine. But, but we appreciate your support and we need your support if this thing's going to take off and continue to do the things that we are working our asses off to make sure it does. And so please subscribe, take a half a second, click the buttons, subscribe like, pass the word on if you can. And we will be back on Tuesday. We got two shows we talked about last week, Tuesday and Thursday, next week, then at the combine. We're there. Wednesday show, Thursday show, Friday show, and Saturday show. Flying back on Sunday. They'll have offensive line workouts on Sunday. We're flying back that night. Be back on Monday to do a full combine recap. Okay. And probably produce another mock draft at that point. But we'll, we'll get there. But again, we appreciate you. Sorry that we're a mess this time of year, but it's part of the fun, right?
- [75:09]
B
I thought it went well.
- [75:10]
A
I, I, I thoroughly enjoyed it. We'll see you on Tuesday. Thanks. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit RG help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit MDG help.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 18778 Hope NY or text Hope NY in New York.