Self-Scouting the 2025 NFL Draft: Where We Were Wrong (If the NFL Is Right)

Summary

The McShay Show: Self-Scouting the 2025 NFL Draft - Where We Were Wrong (If the NFL Is Right)
Release Date: May 5, 2025
Host: Todd McShay, The Ringer

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Introduction: Back in Action

In this episode of The McShay Show, Todd McShay delves into a self-assessment of his predictions for the 2025 NFL Draft. After a hectic period involving family commitments and travel to Los Angeles, Todd and his co-host Connor reconnect to analyze where their mock drafts diverged from the actual outcomes.

Offseason Plans and Show Updates

Todd begins by outlining the show's offseason agenda, emphasizing their commitment to providing in-depth analysis and fresh content throughout the summer. They received over 400 responses from listeners, which they are actively incorporating into upcoming episodes. Todd shares excitement about new series focusing on the 2026 draft class, including position rankings, grades, and evaluations.

Todd McShay [02:00]: "We're excited to fill the entire summer full of ideas and provide exactly what our audience is asking for."

Main Topic: Self-Scouting the 2025 Draft

The core of the episode centers on Todd and Connor reviewing their draft predictions to identify inaccuracies and understand the factors behind those mismatches. The premise is to evaluate their rankings against actual draft results, fostering a learning experience that acknowledges the complexities of NFL scouting and team decision-making.

Todd McShay [07:28]: "I want to say I was wrong. If Dan Morgan was right and I'm not, by all means, Dan Morgan could be right."

In-Depth Analysis of Specific Draft Picks

1. Kenneth Grant - 13th Overall Pick by Miami Dolphins

Todd and Connor dissect the early-round selection of defensive tackle Kenneth Grant, whom Todd had ranked significantly lower.

Connor [12:00]: "He is a big man who moves well and he's got a very high ceiling, so we'll get into that in a little bit."

They explore Miami's defensive scheme and how Grant's versatility fits into their plans under Defensive Coordinator Anthony Weaver. Despite his potential, concerns about consistency and fit within the Dolphins' pass rush strategy are addressed.

Todd McShay [15:38]: "I don't care if we got a break through one of the windows, because he's already promised he's doing it."

2. Nick Martin - 75th Overall Pick by San Francisco 49ers

The duo examines the mid-round selection of linebacker Nick Martin, a player Todd had ranked much higher. Connor highlights Martin’s impressive college statistics but notes concerns regarding his size and injury history.

Connor [75:00]: "If he works out, he could be a starter like Dre Greenlaw was for the 49ers."

They draw parallels to past successful late-round picks, emphasizing the importance of team fit and coaching in player development.

3. Vernon Broughton - 71st Overall Pick by New Orleans Saints

Vernon Broughton’s selection prompts a discussion on offensive tackle evaluations. Todd had placed Broughton much lower on his rankings, questioning the Saints' decision given their existing depth on the offensive line.

Todd McShay [33:14]: "He has big traits but he was injured most of last year, which limited his tape and evaluation."

Connor counters by praising the Saints' offensive line coaching staff, suggesting that Broughton’s traits could be optimized under their guidance.

4. Devin Neal - 184th Overall Pick by New Orleans Saints

Devin Neal’s sixth-round selection surprises both hosts, as Connor had placed him significantly higher. They discuss Neal’s potential as a versatile running back in a Saints offense that needs depth.

Connor [35:43]: "Devin Neal is going to get some carries, man. They need him to get some carries."

Todd concurs, highlighting Neal’s fit within the Saints’ offensive scheme and his ability to contribute both in the running and passing game.

5. Jalen Noel - 79th Overall Pick by New England Patriots

Jalen Noel’s selection becomes a focal point for discussing the evolving role of slot receivers. Todd had ranked Noel much higher, appreciating his route-running and explosiveness, while noting concerns about his catch radius and consistency.

Todd McShay [40:10]: "He's unbelievably crisp and savvy getting in and out of routes. I can tell you that he's explosive and he can open things up for this offense."

Connor adds that Noel’s fit within the Patriots’ system, led by defensive-minded coaching, could enhance his performance despite his ranking discrepancies.

Lessons Learned and Future Outlook

Todd and Connor reflect on the inherent uncertainties in draft predictions, emphasizing the importance of adaptability and continuous learning. They acknowledge that even seasoned analysts like themselves can miss marks, reinforcing the value of reviewing and understanding these missteps.

Todd McShay [60:56]: "This is fun, man. Yeah, it was good. Little self-assessment, self-inflicted wounds only time. But it's fun to do."

Conclusion: Moving Forward

Wrapping up, Todd highlights the ongoing efforts to refine their scouting processes and prepare for future drafts. They tease upcoming content related to the 2026 draft class and encourage listeners to subscribe to The McShay Report for more detailed analyses.

Todd McShay [62:06]: "In August, I'm going to do the first ever appropriately way too early mock draft. It's a good exercise. It's a fun exercise."

The episode concludes with a reaffirmation of their commitment to providing insightful NFL analysis, inviting fans to stay tuned for more comprehensive coverage throughout the offseason.

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Key Takeaways:

• Self-Assessment: Todd and Connor critically evaluate their draft predictions, identifying specific areas where they diverged from actual results.
• Player Analysis: Detailed breakdowns of key draft picks highlight the complexities of NFL scouting and team strategies.
• Lessons Learned: Emphasis on the importance of adaptability and continuous improvement in draft evaluations.
• Future Content: Plans to deliver extensive coverage for the 2026 NFL Draft, including in-depth player evaluations and mock drafts.

Notable Quotes:

• Todd McShay [07:28]: "I want to say I was wrong. If Dan Morgan was right and I'm not, by all means, Dan Morgan could be right."
• Connor [12:00]: "He is a big man who moves well and he's got a very high ceiling, so we'll get into that in a little bit."
• Todd McShay [15:38]: "I don't care if we got a break through one of the windows, because he's already promised he's doing it."
• Connor [35:43]: "Devin Neal is going to get some carries, man. They need him to get some carries."
• Todd McShay [40:10]: "He's unbelievably crisp and savvy getting in and out of routes. I can tell you that he's explosive and he can open things up for this offense."
• Todd McShay [62:06]: "In August, I'm going to do the first ever appropriately way too early mock draft. It's a good exercise. It's a fun exercise."

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For more detailed analyses and mock drafts, subscribe to The McShay Report and catch the full 1st Round Coverage on YouTube.

Transcript

[Todd McShay]

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[Mitch]

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[Todd McShay]

I got it wrong. If the NFL got it right, it's self scouting day here on the McShay Show. Listen, you guys poke holes and mention I all year long. Today the wounds will be self inflicted. Thank goodness. Thank goodness, Mitch. There are 353 days until the 2026 NFL Draft. My man. Men, you good?

[Connor]

I'm good man.

[Todd McShay]

Tucker, play me that beat please.

[Mitch]

We are back.

[Todd McShay]

Regularly scheduled content here. Programming Mondays and Thursdays. That's where you'll find us during the off season. We're excited to be back. Fresh off our trip from la. Spent a couple days out there afterwards. Mensch took a red eye back four kids, one of which took the red eye, took the red eye home Thursday, landed Friday morning. Tried to take a quick nap while the kids are in school, one of which was out of school for the entire week. Sick mother, stepmother in laws in town like get the whole thing right. But we're back doing, doing what we love to do. This is kind of fun, man. Normally like I went 17 years of like, yeah, let's come in on Monday, let's review the draft and then like the door's right there, the highway is right there. We'll see you in August. Now we get to. Now we get to review and take deep dives and we, we just had a show meeting. Okay, we just had a show meeting. We by the way the responses we got over 400 responses to our requests for help us help us help you. Right. We said send us some creative ideas. We're looking to fill the entire summer full of ideas. Mention I are already getting started like this week, we're getting started on tape for the 2026 class in July. We're going to roll out all of our position rankings, our grades, our evaluations. We're going to go through all of that. In the meantime, we're doing a lot of reviewing, looking back at this year's draft. We're going to analyze rosters, maybe some of the three years, what's gone on in the draft plans. But we're also going to incorporate some Q and as some, some show topics that the, that our audience and the people who have been part of the show, friends of the show, as I like to say, have thrown at us. So we appreciate all of that response. We're not ignoring it. We're. We're actually like there's meetings now taking place of people like putting it together, trying to condense it, trying to figure out what the best ideas are. And we're going to roll some of that out in the next several weeks as well. The McShay report. Don't forget about it. There's that smile on Menches fence. It's been a few days.

[Connor]

Yeah, it's been a little weird.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, it's been nice. We had a crash course and we really, you know, we're basically living together for like 10 days out in LA. So I gave him a few days to breathe. I. I recognize I can be a little bit much and so. So it's good to see him smiling. It. We just had the way too early mock draft. If you haven't read it, check out just google the McShay Report. Subscribe. You can subscribe for free. Get half of the content. You can subscribe and chip in and. And you can get all the content. But we're going to be rolling out one announcement mention it's not. What is today? Cinco de Mayo.

[Connor]

Happy Cinco de Mayo, man.

[Todd McShay]

Why am I just really realizing that at 3pm Eastern time we just had an announcement?

[Connor]

Because we're old.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah. We are old. When we were back in our Richmond Days.

[Connor]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

Nine. Nine a.m. we were celebrating. Somehow it's not. We don't normally get NFL draft announcements on May 5th. Right. Did you hear the news, man? 2027 NFL Draft on the national lawn.

[Connor]

That's pretty cool.

[Todd McShay]

At the White House.

[Connor]

Yes.

[Todd McShay]

National monument. How about the commanders and what they're doing from an organizational organization.

[Connor]

Exciting, man.

[Todd McShay]

Jaden Daniels. We got. We had new ownership, building a new stadium.

[Connor]

The momentum is insane.

[Todd McShay]

Commanders fans? No, Commander's fans. You got to be fired up, man. Like it is. It is finally coming your way after decades of frustration with Daniel Snyder and that unbelievably, poorly run organization. And what a way to celebrate the NFL Draft 2020. Now we got to talk. We got to go back to Connor, Dan, see what Tucker and Eduardo's availability is. Everyone in the show. I don't know. I'm. Here's my visions. I want to get your initials. Here we go.

[Connor]

It's. It's 355 days away. Let's start playing it now.

[Todd McShay]

I'm just thinking. No, it's like 700 days away. 20, 27.

[Connor]

Oh, that's right. That's right. That's right.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah. Yeah. Because now I'm hooked. To know the draft ends in LA for this show. Like, that was an awesome week. Studios, right? So. And. And I'll tell you one consistent. I don't care if we got a break through one of the windows, because he's already promised he's doing it. Rosillo on Saturdays. Invading Ros. That's going to be our, you know, an annual tradition, day three of the draft at Rosillo's house. But I got some visions of, like, first of all, the first family of football, The Mannings, the third generation Arch with the first overall pick in the 2027 NFL Draft. Arch Manning. Right. With the monument, but I don't know. But what do you think about maybe LA for a few days, hopping on that ringer, calling Bill Simmons. Hey, Bill, get that jet ready. Flying out dc, Doing the show the first night, flying back, finishing up in la, finishing at Rousseau's house. Thoughts?

[Connor]

You're out of your mind.

[Todd McShay]

I know. All right.

[Connor]

You're on your mind.

[Todd McShay]

Just. I. I'm just rolling it out there. 700 pick a coast for each draft.

[Connor]

That's what I'm asking.

[Todd McShay]

All right, let's get to it. I got it wrong. If the NFL got it right, I came up with.

[Connor]

I have no idea who your players are going to be, by the way. I mean, I'm interested.

[Todd McShay]

You sent me a text. I copied, pasted it and sent it on to Tucker so we could build some graphics. I. I honestly didn't. I think you had. I think I know one player on your list, so I think it's great.

[Connor]

Right?

[Todd McShay]

We've never done this before. I've actually never. I was trying. I was on the. I think it was a flight back and I was trying to think of, like, what can we do that's creative, that's different. And I hadn't gotten all the responses yet. Hadn't. Haven't gone through all those yet. But it was like, we always talk about, like, it's always put through this. This prism, I guess, is what I'm trying to say of. Well, I Adam as the 90th player, you know, on my board, but he went 36. What a terrible pick. Or I had him as the 30th player on my board. He went 90. Something. Someone else made a mistake. And I've. I've talked to our, you know, our audience about this. Before Gary Horton started us in this business, right? Former NFL scout, worked with Bill Belichick and Nick Saban and all those guys with the Browns and. And was bounced around different places in the league. And when we got started, he was trying to start basically the 33rd scouting department and we built it from there. Originally the War Room. Then bought out by ESPN became Scouts Inc. And here Steve and I are screaming into a microphone twice a week. But he always said, you know, like, part of our responsibility, Todd because I know a lot of people in the league. I know how hard they work. I've been in the league. Part of our responsibility is to kind of share that these are smart men, women been involved in sports. Like, they didn't wake up one morning and decide how can I screw this thing up? And that. And that always stuck with me. And so, like, I. I don't have all the answers. Even the smartest guys in the league, even the. Howie Roseman is the pinnacle of the business right now. Is the GM of the Eagles. Two Super Bowls under his belt. Even he, like, I can go pick apart his drafts. He ain't perfect. Eric Costa came on I ain't perfect. Like, no. So I wanted to do this exercise and go through of. Instead of like, I think they got it wrong or why was this player. How about we start with maybe we got it wrong and work back and work backwards. Like, if the league got it right, if that player should have been drafted where he was. Whether it's way later than we thought or a lot earlier than we thought. Let's just. Let's talk through it. What maybe. Did we miss something? I even went back and I was watching more tape this morning on a couple of the players to not to refresh. Like, I've got pages of notes on. I've got like a page of notes on every player. It was to. I wanted to see with my own eyes now, okay, the Panthers drafted him, the Saints drafted him, the Dolphins draft. I wanted to see, okay, how does that fit what they want to do? And I know you've done the same. So I want to get started with players.

[Connor]

I'll say this.

[Todd McShay]

Go ahead.

[Connor]

For years we've said, well, how good is a player going to be in the league? Well, tell me where he's going to end up. So here he's going to go, you know, like, that's a big part of this equation, of this puzzle. And I don't mean that is he going to a bad team or is he going to a good team? I'm saying, is he going to a place where he's going to get a chance to play? Is he going to a place where they have something in structure for him to, to grow and evolve as a player? There's a lot of moving pieces to all of this. We've said for years, is a player going to be good? Tell me where he's going to go.

[Todd McShay]

And my last preface to all of this is the obvious one that everyone's waiting for us to get into is Shador Sanders. This is about everybody that's not named Shador. Okay. I mean, every. I feel like we spent the entire week leading up to the entire draft weekend, and I even did a USA Today up to Friday, USA Today interview on the subject on Friday. So, like, now it's, let's get into the, the nuts and bolts. We all know what happened there. And I, I've tried to explain and we tried to, we tried to prepare people for it. We talked through it. And then we, you know, everyone did a debrief on it afterwards and whatever. Their opinions are wide ranging from, from mine to my good friend Mel Kuipers, various opinions. Right. But now let's get into the other guys. So m. Why don't you get started? 1. And again, this premise is a player that we either had ranked a lot higher or lower than where they got drafted. And let's just, let's talk through it and, and try to make some sense of it and, and see why we could be wrong.

[Connor]

This my guy, the first guy I went with was the 13th overall pick in the draft. That's Kenneth Grant. The Miami Dolphins took the defensive tackle, Kenneth Grant from Michigan.

[Todd McShay]

It's the smallest.

[Connor]

This is the smallest surprise that I went with that player. Or surprised.

[Todd McShay]

No, no, no. So I, we knew he was going to go in the first round. But that high, considering who was still on the board, was a surprise to, to me. And I know, I know to you as well.

[Connor]

Right. So I just didn't see. I didn't see that kind of player on tape, to be honest with you. When I went back and I look at his grade, I felt like I was easy on him because of the potential. I was betting on the traits, and I think that's, you know, why you would take him. You're betting on the traits. He is a big man who moves well and he's got a very high ceiling, so we'll get into that in a little bit. But it's the smallest gap in between the ranking and where he went because of how early it is. Right. So the earlier the player goes, the smaller it doesn't have to be a big gap. To me, he was the fourth. He was my fourth defensive tackle and the 27th best player on my board is what I'm saying. And he ended up going 13. And that may not seem like a big gap to people, but when you're the second defensive tackle to go and you go in the top 15 of the draft, to me, that's a big difference.

[Todd McShay]

So, like, every spot.

[Connor]

Every Spotify my pick.

[Todd McShay]

No, no. Every spot in the top five or top 10 to 15 feels like three to five spots later in the draft.

[Connor]

Thank you. So you get it.

[Todd McShay]

And I think particularly because of what was still available.

[Connor]

Right, right. So that's where I'm going. When I get into my other guys, you'll. There'll be a much bigger gap. But for this one, this one, this is one that popped out to me.

[Todd McShay]

Okay, okay.

[Connor]

But here's why, you know, here's why it could go well. The defensive coordinator is Anthony Weaver. Anthony Weaver was drafted by the Ravens. He was a big defensive end coming out of Notre Dame. This guy knows the position. He likes bigger defensive linemen who are versatile. And you look at Kenneth Grant, I think a lot of people think he also coached for the Ravens for a few years, by the way, for former defensive line coach. This guy knows what he's doing with defensive linemen. If you're looking for a coordinator who can develop a young, talented defensive lineman, you're going to be hard pressed to find a guy better at it than Anthony Weaver. I think so anyways, he's going to be able to.

[Todd McShay]

I, I.

[Connor]

People might look at Kenneth Grant's size and say he's a nose tackle. Well, they took up two other guys later on this draft that I think are nose tackles. They took Jordan Phillips in the fifth round and they took Zeke Biggers in the seventh round. He could play outside, inside in that scheme again, a guy that they're going to like because of the versatility. I think Kenneth Grant's going to play outside. I think he's going to be a defensive end in their base three man fronts and then he's going to be a defensive tackle in their four man fronts. And I think.

[Todd McShay]

But when you say outside, you still mean defensive line. Yeah.

[Connor]

Right tackle. The tackle when I say is a four, I. When I'm saying outside defensive lineman and a base three man front, that's what four eye technique, which means that he lines up over the inside shoulder of the offensive tackle. He's going to live in these two spots. He's going to live on the outside shoulder of the guard and the inside shoulder of the tackle. I think he's great in that position because he has that size. Yes. You think 340 plus pounds. This guy's just going to play over the center and be that old school Vince Wilfork nose tackle. That's not really his game. I think he's a little bit better at getting off blocks, being athletic, being quick getting into the backfield. I think he's more of a guy that you want to play in that B gap and I think he could be perfect at that and that's how they'll use him. So I'm looking at their scheme and their fit now. My only problem is I'll say this. Pittsburgh got a player. They do a lot of similar things. Pittsburgh does. And they got Derek Harmon at 21, who I think is a better player. So that sticks out in my mind. But if we're staying positive and we're saying why this could work and why it could be wrong, and I have to acknowledge that it's a great landing spot for him in terms of scheme and a coordinator who knows how to use him.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, I'm just, I'm just looking at their defensive line. I mean, they were 27th in sacks last year. Right. But 12th and pressures. If you wanted to draft for pass rush, you're drafting Harmon, you know.

[Connor]

Right. And they lost Calais Campbell. I think Campbell's a different build. C.L.

[Todd McShay]

Clay'S.

[Connor]

Campbell is about 290. 295. Yes, granted. But I think that when you look, don't, don't get caught up on the weight when you look at their, their style of play. And again, Kenneth Grant has a long way to go before we start talking about him. In the same breath as Calais Campbell. But if you're looking at that kind of role, the player, the role they want him to play in the scheme, I think it's more Calais Campbell than it is a nose.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that'll be interesting because that wasn't my initial thought.

[Connor]

And he has the tools, man. He has, he. Listen, we, we've said this all along. He has the tools. If you can get the best out of them, that looks like a great pick. But yeah, 13 for a guy that's inconsistent on tape is a little, A little scary for me.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, I think that, that surprised people. That pick, regardless, it was just a little higher than, than the expectation. I'm gonna, I'm gonna just play the hits right off the top. I think everyone was well aware, everyone who followed the show was well aware that Ted McMillan was, was not my favorite player in this draft.

[Connor]

Yeah, there's the most obvious. Right.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, I had him ranked 50th, and I did it. I call that the, the you can have them grade. I had to be. And I say that, but like, I, I, I, I want to make it perfectly clear. I see the talent.

[Connor]

You have to be good to get the you can have them grade because you can have them grade. It's just to be, you know, just describe it, explain it a little bit. Is if I put him at 50, I know I'm not getting them. So that's the you can have him because, you know, he's long gone at that point.

[Todd McShay]

Right. And, and when I mocked him, I, I mocked him. I forget the final mock draft. Although I w. Maybe wound up getting 10 right on the mock draft and.

[Connor]

Like, back some late ones. You. There's some late ones. Yeah, I was sneak.

[Todd McShay]

Sneaking around the chicken coupe on that thing.

[Connor]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

Anyway, I know very, very much so. But yeah, I think the lowest I, I mocked him towards the end was, was at 12 to Dallas. And that's where he would have gone had, had Carolina not taken him at 8. So obviously a massive discrepancy. You're talking about 20 something spots. I'm talking about 42. Right. So let's just, let's just get, get it out of the way. I don't think anyone who's taking the time to watch the show in the off season needs me to explain the 6, 4, the, you know, the 219, the, the length, the, the acrobatic catches you see on tape. Like, this guy has, has the ability to go up and make special plays down the field. I Don't trust him long term is the reason why I've got him at 50. There's, and I've seen all the backlash and you know, people think that I'm in Jed Fish's pocket or I'm in this person's pocket or I just, I, I, I, I hear the stories, I hear about the practice habits and practicing harder with scouts there and barely practicing when they're not and there was just a lot of stuff there. But here's the deal. If he, if he decides to totally check in and go maximize his tools. Yeah, yeah. Good pick. And so that, I mean that's what Carolina and Dan Morgan's counting on. And I trust that. And, and this is, this is my day to say I, I, I was wrong. If Dan Morgan was right and I'm not, like, by all means, Dan Morgan could be right. How could it work? Well, I'll tell you how it could work. And it's not hard. Like it doesn't take a super sleuth to figure it out. 62 pass catchers in the league had more receiving yards than, than Carolina's top receiver last year, Adam thielen, who had 615 receiving yards. The group got better with, you know, with Xavier Legette and, and Jaylen Coker as the season progressed and, and it was a direct reflection of the quarterback play improved with Bryce young. They're in 11. Here's how it will work. You got a smaller quarterback that probably doesn't see the field the way, you know, some other quarterbacks who are 636465 do. A quarterback who very much relies on timing, throwing the ball to spots touch, putting the ball up there for receivers. A quarterback who actually didn't have the weapons that some of the quarterbacks before him at Alabama did, but still had always had good weapons and was very good at getting the ball out on time and leading receivers. And now he's got big catch radius guys. You know, you've got Ted McMillan and his size. You've got Xavier Leggett who's not as tall 6:1, but he's 227 physical receiver. You got Adam Thielen, who's a veteran routerunner, 6:1, over 200 pounds, physical receiver, you know, and then you get Jalen Coker who's come on and, and coming out of Holy Cross, right? Yeah, the Holy, Holy Cross. Another 6, 1 2, 13. So they got a bunch, they don't have a lot of like quick separators and they don't have a lot of burners. But they got a lot of big catch radius guys strong after the catch. Right.

[Connor]

They drafted a couple talented tight ends over the last two years too. They got Sanders out of Texas and Mitchell Evans out of Notre Dame this year. I mean, they've gotten some big bodies, can make plays.

[Todd McShay]

Right. So, so a lot. And I think the, the premise is going to be a lot of, you know, get the ball west coast, get the ball out quick catch, physical run after catch, those kind of guys. And then when we take our shots, it's 50, 50 balls. Our guys are bigger and stronger, more physical than yours and go get contestants. And Carolina was in 11 personnel 72% of the time last year. So now we've got three of the big bodies on the field and some rotation of Teo and McMillan, Xavier Leggette, Adam Thielen and Jalen Coker.

[Connor]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

So that's how it will work.

[Connor]

Looks great on paper.

[Todd McShay]

It does. And they got, and they got a weapon for their quarterback. But as, as is the case with all of these other situations, I asked myself the question maybe if I didn't get it wrong, who could they have had? Do you know what I mean?

[Connor]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

Who could they have had?

[Connor]

And she went back and saw who's.

[Todd McShay]

Yep, go ahead and, and I'm looking at why not a Colston Loveland if you're looking for a big receiving target, put them in the slot. Why not a Mikel Williams or Jalen Walker who. I get it went 15. So to me, I'm always going to be going back into. I'm not doing this against other receivers in the class. It wasn't a great class. It's not like, and I liked Matthew golden more and I liked Mecca Buka more. I get for what they're trying to do. I'm cool with the wide receiver group and like if that's their guy, I'm cool with that. It's, it's what else this organization needed. You know, that to me is, is what I'm always gonna, gonna go off of here. And, and I look at, and I look at. Okay. And then also we always talk about the combo picks and, and we're always gonna have to when we go back a year from now or two years from now. It was, it was Nick scorton at the 19th pick in the second round. Right. And again, a player I'm not super, super high on. But, but when you look at Nick Scorton and Ted McMillan, it could have been Mikel Williams or Jaylen Walker in the first. And then you get To Carolina. Where's Carolina? Carolina's. They traded back, right? Yeah, they traded back to get Scorton, but they could have traded back and taken another receiver at that point. Trey Harris. Would you rather have Mikel Williams or Jalen Walker and Trey Harris, or would you rather have. Have Tedro and McMillan and Nick Scorton?

[Connor]

Yeah, I would have gone your way.

[Todd McShay]

I would have gone your way. I would have, too. But. But again, they believe in Tedro, McMillan. They believe in the character. They believe in that this guy is going to show up in the NFL and he's ready to go. And if that's the case, then they'll wind up being right. All right, who do you get next?

[Connor]

The 75th overall pick in this draft. Nick Martin, Oklahoma State. The inside line. The 49ers drafted him. I had someone from the league tell me at the Senior bowl, keep an eye on this kid. He's really good. And to be honest with you, I loved his tape. He had 140 tackles in 83 solo tackles in 20, 23. But here's the. This is what the deal for me, and this is a good lesson. There's a couple. Pat Bryant, the receiver from Illinois, this is another lesson for me. If you love a player, if you love the tape, stick to your guns, right? Because I really did like Nick Martin, but he's 511, 5, 221, and he missed most of last year with a knee injury. And I'm thinking to myself, who's going to take a chance on an undersized linebacker who had some problems staying healthy? And you know who took the chance? San Francisco. And here's why this could really work. Because if you're a San Francisco fan, you know that Dre Greenlaw was a guy that went in the fifth round, I believe, on a little undersized. Weight wise, he was fine, but he's sub six foot run. Both these guys, when you watch their tape. Green Law when he came out of Arkansas, Martin out of Oklahoma State. Speed. It is speed on tape. Relentless. Just chasing down running backs. Are they good at getting off blocks? Nope, they're not great. That's not their strength. But they play fast and they, they. When San Francisco drafts Dre Greenlaw, they got an immediate starter. He's started games that first year, I think 12 or 13 games the next year. Right next to Fred Warner. When you got Fred Warner, you could put a lot of guys next to him and they're gonna look good because Fred Warner's so good. But you, you look at that he started 22 of the first 29 games he played. In 2019, the 49ers gave up the second fewest yards per game in the league. The next year was the fifth fewest yards per game in the league. So they took a rookie who's a fifth round draft hook, insert him at linebacker, and we're off and running. Now. I get it. They're loaded everywhere else, man. And they're, they're maybe not, they're not that roster that they were then, but you remember who the offensive court, I mean, the defense coordinator was for them in 2019. Robert Salah. Guess who's back. Yeah, guess who's back down, baby. Guess who knows exactly how to coach linebackers, how to use them in a scheme, how to develop them. I look at that pick and I feel like I'm going to be kicking myself. This is the one where you look, look, you talked about it before. I don't have all the answers. I'm trying to, like, I look at these picks and I say to myself, what are the lessons that I can learn here? And I, I believe that this one might be. If he works out. Now, he's had some, like the, the Green law stuff is going to be very similar to this kid. It's going to be very interesting because Greenlawn, Martin, whether or not they're able to stay healthy, that was Greenlaw's falling out as he has not been able to stay healthy. And unfortunately, I believe he just suffered another serious injury last week. So they'll have to stay healthy. But this is one that I think I'll look back and say, take chances on guys who aren't height, weight, speed guys, if their production and tape is good enough.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, all good points. And I like that. Like, let's learn, let's learn. And, and maybe the pick doesn't work out, but there's still a lesson to learn from it. Right?

[Connor]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, of, of if I look and I tried to do that more this year than ever before, and I'll get to a player in a little bit here that, that I did that on, and I'm comfortable bringing it up today and we'll see how it all plays out. I'm gonna kick, I'm gonna kick over to the Saints.

[Connor]

I got a Saints player.

[Todd McShay]

Go ahead. Well, I, I want to make this perfect. There are two players that I was just way off compared to their board. Okay. But I also want to make it perfectly clear, like, this ain't a Saints thing, man. Like, I have a lot of respect For Mickey Loomis, that organization. I also like, absolutely love Tyler Shuck and love the fact that they had the onions to hang there at 40 and wait for their guy to get there first.

[Connor]

Onions of the, the 2026 draft cycle.

[Todd McShay]

Exactly. So with that, with all that said, I just wasn't a Kelvin Banks guy like some other people. And there were. And when I say some other people, I mean a lot of people in the league and I'm okay with that. And it wasn't like the, I'm not going with chalk here. Like the Georgia game, he got exposed. Like it actually it was, it wasn't good, but it wasn't as bad as, as people like this urban lore of like, you know, this like legend of, of the Georgia game. Like yeah, it wasn't great, it wasn't good. But like it wasn't like devastating. When I went back and studied it for like a third time, the end, I just, I think there's work that he has to do. I just, you know, the off balance stuff, I just don't top heavy off balance. But I see, but I also see the athleticism, I see the quickness, I see potential there and that's what they're betting on. But for the Saints, where the Saints were smart was they got out ahead. Unlike the combo pick I just talked about with the Carolina Tetaro and McMillan. Nick Scorton could have been Jaylen Walker, Mikel Williams and Trey Harris. There ain't no combo pick here, bud. You know, like they knew the offensive tackles were going to go. They had the right information so they, they took him at 9 and, and I'm cool with that. And, and you look at their depth chart too. Like I don't know where he's going to play like fag to least Fuaga played at left tackle and, and held up pretty well last year. Can they kick him to right? Is Kelvin Red. Here's. That's my question. I do like the fact that maybe it's right tackle because people who tend to lean my side on Kelvin Banks think, think maybe he's better off at right tackle or guard maybe early in his career and let him develop right if they truly believe in him. Like all right, left tackle for you. Fuaga goes to right tackle and, and we're off. And Trevor Penning, remember they didn't pick up the fifth year option. So it makes a lot of football sense because there is versatility and if you got to play Fuaga back at left tackle and if he's not ready at tackle, you play Penning for one more year, kick him inside the guard, then kick. So it gives them versatility and flexibility up front. So I understand that. So that and I also understand there wasn't another tackle in round two. So that's where maybe I just didn't rank the tackles as high in general, but it was more so I liked and Member was gone. Will Campbell was gone. Like the run was there. So I just, it was just a big gap from where I had him at at 35 overall to 9.

[Eduardo]

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[Unknown]

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[Todd McShay]

But the bigger one and this one's going to be on me. They're 71st. I think we'll see their 71st overall pick, their third round pick, Vernon Broughton. I had his 214 in the draft.

[Connor]

Huh.

[Todd McShay]

I looked at your rankings. You had them a lot higher. I had 143 difference. I think there's going to be.

[Connor]

I saw mine. I want to know what I had.

[Todd McShay]

I. I think you had him like one.

[Connor]

I was pretty sure I was. I had him higher.

[Todd McShay]

You had him a Lot higher. I don't know how I saw yours but I saw yours somewhere. Oh, I was scrolling through the, through ESPN.com where you handled all the draft tracker stuff and it showed it. That's where I saw it.

[Connor]

Yeah, I had him132 so now I was still low on them.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, I don't think I did a good enough job with the, the later round guys of circling back this year because we got an October 22 start and we were starting a show and I think I, if they weren't in the top like 200 I wasn't circling back like I would have in most years and I hope I would have. And I went back and watched more tape today. I like his upside more than I, than I remember. I love, I love the 6, 5, 3, 1135 inch arms didn't work out at the combine. He's quick in flashes. Like there are some plays where he stands guys up goes and makes.

[Connor]

He's up and down. But the highlights are impressive, right?

[Todd McShay]

The highlights are impressive but there's also a lot of like when you're studying through the reel of the key plays where he like he'll get in the backfield and it's the Titanic trying to turn on leaving his feet. So like he's not there yet. But also I want to, I, I had to remind myself and I'll remind Saints fans like this is a guy that played behind two NFL defensive tackles and no one else was getting a lot of play. And so like this year was a real like fast learning curve for, for the, the Texas defensive tackles. Right. And so and I, and I think that they were, I think they were drafted accordingly to be quite honest. Like Alfred Collins and, and, and Vernon Broughton were drafted with. There's more potential here. They only got one season of game experience, you know and so I think that that absolutely factored in when you look at what they were playing with but playing behind and two NFL guys. So I'll be interested to see the Saints draft because I'm studying very closely Tyler Shuck and I can't wait to see how that plays out. We'll talk about that later as we you know, go through all the review stuff. But, but those two players in particular, I, I had very different grades on compared to where they went.

[Connor]

Yeah, it's, it's going to be a Saints pod, baby. I didn't even send you this pick in the initial list that I sent you. But how could I not talk about Devin Neal, the running back from Kansas that the Saints took with 184th pick in the sixth round, who I had ranked at 101.

[Todd McShay]

I'm glad we're talking about bringing balance here.

[Connor]

I took him out of. I took him out of the top 100 because I knew he wasn't going to go there. But I really wanted him in there, man, I feel like this. He's that good. Ended up going 184. So the. The league spoke. But I'll say this, man, look at Kellen. Look what Kellen Moore. First of all, let's start with Alvin Kamara. Can we get him some help, please? I think he led the. The. Led the team in targets, 248 carries. I think the next guy was Jamal Williams with 48 carries. He's missed at least a game every year since his rookie season banged up. Let's get him some help. We need to get him some help, especially because I'll tell you right now, Kellen Moore wants to run the damn football, man. Look at where he's been. Yes, Philadelphia last year. Led the. Led the. This is regular season, so don't start yapping at me about playoff carries and all that junk. Regular season, the Eagles led the league by far in carries. He went to the Chargers for a year. He had Justin Herbert. The running game wasn't what it was. They just aired it out. I think they were in the 20s. That is the only other time in his career as an offense coordinator that he hasn't been in the top of the top half of the league and usually a lot earlier than that. And carries his teams have been. And you look at those two, the 2022. I didn't word that well. I hope everyone gets it. You look at 2022 Cowboys. You look at the 2021 Cowboys, those offenses, they went 12 and five both those years they ran the ball. And I think he's looking to do something similar to what he had there when he had Zeke, because you don't have Saquon. Look, Camara is awesome. He's not built like Saquon. He can't do the workload like Saquon can. He's shown that he just. His body's not going to hold up. He's tough and you want to get him as many touches as you could possibly can. But I think he's better off if you manage his workload long term. So now you, you do need a number two back. And I think he wants to do what he did with Zeke Elliott and Tony Pollard when he was at Dallas when it was 1A and 1B. And look at the, look at the rest of that, that depth chart. I mean who's, who's that running back? To me it's going to be Devin Neil. It's not Ken, it's not Kendra Miller, it's not Clyde Edwards. H who hasn't, you know, y really panned out since he got drafted and who I love coming out of LSU but just hasn't turned out to be the player that we thought he was going to be. Marcus Yarns. I love that as a free agent signing the kid from Delaware who, who flashed at the Senior bowl and flashes on tape. I love all that. Devin Neal is going to get some carries, man. They need him to get some carries. If Kellen Moore is especially look at their situation at quarterback. They need to run the ball, they need to take pressure off Alvin Camaro and Kellen Moore does a nice job. They do a lot of zone concepts in their run game, inside zone, outside zone. But they mix it power, they mix it counter. And Devin Neal is an experienced running back coming out of college. They could do all of that for you. He can help you out in the passing game. He's scheme versatile in terms of the way he runs. He's big enough to Harry to carry some of the workload. I think that they get this kid in the sixth round and we're going to look back on it and say halfway through the season and be like this. He's is playing meaningful snaps for them, he is producing for them. And how in the world did he last that long?

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, I'm a, I'm a Neil fan as well, but not as big a Neil fan as you were. You. So I, I stole Omari and Hampton from you. You stole Devin Neal from me.

[Connor]

That is actually. That is sort of true. But it's just a great landing spot for him. It's a great landing spot.

[Todd McShay]

It's a great landing spot.

[Connor]

The one downfall would be this, is that if they, the passing game, right? If they have. If they start seeing a lot of heavy boxes, it's going to be tough. It's going to be tough sledding in some of those situations. But long term, I mean we're talking the four year rookie contraction you're talking about, right? No, I, I think he's going to be all right in pass protection. I think there's a lot of guys who come out. There's. Listen for every Travion Henderson, there's a hundred guys who need to do a. Need to work on their pass block and we can agree on that, right? Yeah. Trayvon Henderson of Ohio State was the best by far. Devin Neal isn't great, but I think he can get there. He's willing, he's big. If you work on his technique a little bit, he'll be all right. He's not, I wouldn't rely on him week one, but I think he'll get there.

[Todd McShay]

All right. I'm going to switch over Jalen Noel. No secret. One of my favorite players in this draft. I, I, yeah, I, I just don't, I didn't care. I, I knew he wasn't going in at 30 where I put him. I knew he wasn't going to be the third best receiver taken. I did think he was going to go late. Second, he went pick 79 item 30. He was the 11th receiver taken. Item as the third.

[Connor]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

Now I can sit here and tell you he ran a 4:3:9. He had a 411 1/2 inch vertical jump, an 11, 2 broad jump and 23 reps on the bench press.

[Connor]

But you're not gonna do it.

[Todd McShay]

I can tell you that he's unbelievably crisp and like savvy getting in and out of routes. I can tell you that he's explosive and he can open things up for this offense. I can tell you all those things. I can tell you that he's a.

[Connor]

Starting slot right away, but you won't.

[Todd McShay]

And move over Christian Kirk. Here comes Noel. But why did he, why did he fall to 79? Well, he fell to 79 and, and I, and I've shared it before and I try to be balanced on all of it, but I, I was willing to, I don't not overlook, but I, I just, I just think it's going to work. Okay, but, but to be fair, why does he fall to 79? Well, the league spoke as you said and the league said, yeah, we see all that explosiveness, but we, we see a smaller at best, number three slot receiver who has a very small catch Radius, short arms, 29 and a half inch arm length, doesn't make a ton of catches, where he's going up and getting it, making unbelievable adjustments, all that stuff.

[Connor]

Muffy could do that a little bit though. He should do that a little bit.

[Todd McShay]

But I'm saying not, not a ton of it. Five muff punts, had some bad drops and some moments, I don't think. I think it was more like focus, you know, that kind of stuff. But we'll see. Yeah, those are the reasons. Short arms, short small catch radius, had some Drops five muff punts. You add all those things up and you're looking at a smaller catch radius guy who yes, is explosive. But I can't count in the first two rounds. I want to get someone I believe is going to be a starter and, and I'd like to draft my slot starter eventually if that's what he is. In the third and they got Jaden Hick. But what I love is the fit like Tank Dell. Unfortunately it's mcl, pcl, ACL and dislocated kneecap like devastating right. They had Nico Collins missed five games with the hand hamstring last year. Stefan Diggs only played eight games before tearing his ACL and now is in New England. Okay so there's a lot of question marks with a quarterback who now is going into his third year. The window is getting smaller. Not on, not on CJ Stroud and this organization's chances of winning. It's getting shorter on the, on his rookie salary cap implications.

[Connor]

Yeah.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah. So we're like we got to do it now. We got to do it quickly. And so they bring in Jaden Higgins in the second and Jalen Noel in the third. And I probably, if you, if you had to ask Nick Casseria, we probably was shocked that Noel was still sitting there in the third. I think eventually he's going to take wind up being the starter and take over that role for Christian Kirk. But right now you got Kirk and Nico Collins and Jaden Higgins and John Mechi and Jaylen Noel. And so now you've got a bunch of you got five receivers that should make impacts after everything that fell apart a year ago.

[Connor]

Can we talk about the larger conversation we've kind of had about slot receivers in that and I agree with you on this that they are starters now that your number three receiver is a starter. And maybe they didn't, maybe teams aren't seeing know Noel as a, a number three receiver as a rookie. But do you think that maybe the league doesn't see it the way we do yet that they're not ready to make to value a number three receiver as a starter yet?

[Todd McShay]

I think that's absolutely the case. And I, and you, you hear like I have really fun conversations with people in the league. It's like yeah, we kind of speak out of both sides of the nickel is a starter now. We don't have to will a Sam a Mike linebacker. It's, it's two off ball linebackers and a nickel and, and the wide receiver is a starter now. We don't have a fullback. It's not, we're not 22 person, but it's still, it's still the nickel and it's still the slot, you know.

[Connor]

Right. They still want to pay him like the nickel slot, right?

[Todd McShay]

They still want to pay him. So. So yeah, I, I do. I'm trying to pull this up. Hold on one second. I want to pull up by position.

[Connor]

Because I feel, I feel like it hurt. Jalen Lane too, the Virginia Tech kid who's, who's undersized slot receiver. He's got some really nice tape explosive. He went a little later. He went late in the fourth. I thought he might have gone earlier in the fourth, maybe even late in the third.

[Todd McShay]

You. But you look at like the slot receivers in the league. It's like Khalil Shakir and even like Demario Douglas. I know that's not a good group. Zay Flowers, Jerry Judy. I'm just going down the list here. Christian Kirk, as we just mentioned, Elijah Moore, Travis Hunter, now for Jacksonville, Elijah Moore, this. There's just Kobe, Myers, lad McConkey, you know, like there. Wandell Robinson, CD Lamb, Devonte Smith, Debo Samuel. Okay. Jaden Reed. There's just a lot of damn good productive slot receivers in the league. I don't know.

[Connor]

I don't know what the answer is there. It'll be interesting to see if that can. If that evolves, if that, that catches up to what we're thinking or if we're just off on that.

[Todd McShay]

But like there. Yeah. So I don't know. All right, next for you, I am.

[Connor]

Going with Cameron Williams, the offensive tackle out of Texas. And this is an interesting one for me. He was pick 207. The Eagles take him. I had him ranked at 113, so 1 13. Listen, that's outside of my top hundred. I think this kid's a day three early, day three pick. Let's just be clear about that. He went 207.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah.

[Connor]

So why did he go late? Yeah, why did he go late? Honestly, the tape wasn't that good. I mean you. He was.

[Todd McShay]

Jack, I don't feel like you liked him that much.

[Connor]

Well, I like Adam at 113, so I thought he was. I, at one point. I had a third round grade on him early on in the process. I thought he had a chance to go real early. Going into the season. The word was that this is a talent kid that's going to blow up. But he only had one start in 2023, so we didn't know much about him other Than he is talented. He flashed a little bit the year before and this was going to be the year that they were going to have the two talented offensive tackles. Much like LSU coming into the year was LSU's offensive tackles and Texas's offensive tackles were the two tandems. So he's. If you watch the Ohio State game, you saw the strip sack of Ohio State versus Texas. Jack Sawyer beat Cameron Williams. He beat him clean, man.

[Todd McShay]

Yep.

[Connor]

And Cameron Williams had some tough times in the Georgia games. And listen, he's an inconsistent player, but the tools are there. And not only that, he is. He played hurt the entire season. I mean, he was hurt the entire season. He had to go through surgery after, after the season. He spoke about it at the combine where his heel was locking up. And I just, you know, I was. Someone's gonna bet on this kid's traits. 34 and a half inch arms, moves pretty good on tape. Inexperienced, you know, not, not super young, but 21. I thought someone was going to take a chance on the tools early on day three. And what happens is the Eagles get him at pick 207. And why is that significant? Because the Eagles offensive line coach is the best in the universe. I mean, he is.

[Todd McShay]

He is.

[Connor]

He is outrageous. Just. I'm just going to read this. His name is Jeff stoutland. He's led seven players to 26 Pro Bowls in 2018. He went down to Tampa to. I think the story is right. I hope I get this right. He went down to Tampa to watch this, this rugby player from Australia work out.

[Todd McShay]

Yep.

[Connor]

And had never played football.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah.

[Connor]

And went back, was like, yeah, let's take it. Let's. I see some things. Let's draft them. So the Eagles draft Jordan Mylota in the seventh round of 2018. By the. By 2020, he's a starter. He's been their starting tackle since 2020. That's how good this guy is.

[Todd McShay]

Yes.

[Connor]

And look at their. And look at their offensive line group. They don't need Cameron Williams. They don't need him to play them today. They don't need him to play tomorrow. If they can hide him in a roster spot and then get to work with this kid who hasn't seen a lot of snaps. And then, you know, Landon Johnson's is aging. Who knows what's happened contract wise in a year or two. What they have to do in terms of managing their cap.

[Todd McShay]

I, I love it, dude.

[Connor]

It's just, it's Howie. It's like a. It's just a great Howie Rosen pick. You're getting a kid with great traits who had a down year, probably because he was hurt, and there's not a lot of tape on him because he's inexperienced. But you. And here's the other thing that I know, I know they took three off. They took Miles Hinton, too, by the way, the kid from Michigan who we kind of liked on tape. Right. And Drew Kendall. And Drew Kendall, the Boston College kid who we didn't maybe like as much, but we'd heard a lot of buzz about, like, this kid can maybe play. You know, if they drafted an offensive lineman, they went down, they walked down the hallway to his office and said, take a look at this kid. What do you think? And if he told them there's something to work with, my God, there's something to work with. Like, he's, he's, he's that good of an offensive line coach. I just look at who took them, and I'm saying to myself, man, this is going to be, I think this is going to be a guy where we look back, I feel good about that ranking. Did I feel good about a player that needed to develop but ended up could, it could end up being a starter and if not a swing tackle.

[Todd McShay]

But it's wild. And I won't name any other organizations even like to throw it out. Like, it is wild. The conversation we'd be having about him if it was another organization.

[Connor]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

I'm saying there's a hand where it's like, yeah, I don't know if we're ever gonna see him.

[Connor]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

You know what I mean?

[Connor]

Like, should have gone back to school, man.

[Todd McShay]

How about Braden Swinson? I feel like the draft was happening fast. We're, we're in Rossillo's couch. He's talking about, he's got short shorts on and making Aaron Hernandez jokes and all sorts of stuff that, like, is right on the, the verge, the edge. And I just feel like we, we didn't dig into this. I had him ranked 78, bro.

[Connor]

Yeah, I, I, I get it right now. I was close.

[Todd McShay]

He went pick 146. The LSU Edge the new England Patriots took. It's kind of like your deal, man. It's not like, not to the extreme, but you're telling me that, that Mike Vrabel isn't going to get the most out of this guy. Here's the knock, here's why. There's always the why. Why did Braden Swinson.

[Connor]

So I had him 82. Just so you know. Go ahead.

[Todd McShay]

So, like, same neighborhood, 78, 82. Almost identical, actually. That's weird. Yeah, it is a little. He went 146, almost twice the number of what. Where we had him ranked. And like, I thought worst case was fourth round for this guy. Worst case, right. When I. And even talking to scouts, like a lot of. A lot of third round grades, but worst case, fourth. He went in the fifth. Eight picks into the fifth round. He was the 22nd edge defender taken.

[Connor]

I had. You had. You had 87. Correct. Of the top 100, right?

[Todd McShay]

Yes.

[Connor]

So think of that.

[Todd McShay]

Your hit rate, either 86 or 87. Somebody said 86.

[Connor]

We'll say 87 because we're being nice. So. So you hit on 87% of your top 100. This was one of the. One of the third.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, I'm cool if it's like one hundred and ten, one hundred and fifteen, one hundred and twenty.

[Connor]

Right.

[Todd McShay]

One hundred and forty six is like, what's happening. I've got a red flag. So now we're talking about it. So why didn't he. Why didn't he go? Because the Patriots also passed on him two or three times too. You know, negatives. DPR only. Designated pass rusher only not overly stout and all that. One year. Two. Two stops. Really? One year breakout with the sacks. Okay, I'm not going to go through all the numbers. I don't want to make this over an hour show today. We're in the. This is the off season now. There were reports that he ran like a 468 or something, but then it came out he really ran a 480.

[Connor]

And that's a. I still had the 468. I saw the 468 time on him.

[Todd McShay]

Yeah, the league didn't. So you're asking what the league spoke. The league. And that's the 56 percentile of edges. And he's not one of the bigger ones. Okay, but. But then also like the three cone that he ran at the combine, the shuttle that they ran, he ran the combine. They weren't terrible numbers. But when you're talking about a DPR designated pass rusher, you want that guy to be like, you know, like Jalen Walker, like, you know, Micah Parson, obviously those are the highest level. But you want guys that have like the traits that pop, right? And, and, and his didn't. So those are the reasons why. But I look at him at six, six, three and a half, essentially 255, and I look at the place he's in, and all of a sudden I'm like, For him it's probably better. Better off that he went in the fifth to New England than maybe some other spots. Right. And again he has. He has time to develop. You know, like they get Harold Landry. He'll learn behind they get Keon White. It's not a great group but I'm just saying like he'll be in a. He is best suited to play 15, 20 snaps. Some obvious passing downs develop doesn't. Don't get rushed in. Make sure we're working on the consistency and variables there like every day in practice or. Have you ever been to. Did you. I went. I had the. The privilege of going to Ohio State practices several of them years ago when Urban was there. I was like I. I would have loved if I had my apple watch on to feel my heart or see my heart rate beats per minute. Watching variable coach defensive lineman man, like it is intense and I'm not saying. I mean he's a head coach now. I'm not saying he's. But like he is gonna work that. You know he's gonna. He's gonna squeeze all the juice out of this cat. I'm excited to see that. Any. Anyone else for you?

[Connor]

No. I didn't make any other mistakes.

[Todd McShay]

I know you did. I know you got everything.

[Connor]

I got everything else. Right.

[Todd McShay]

One more. I was surprised and I. I just want to throw it out there. You and I both watch tape on him. That's why I wanted to kind of bring it up last. I went back Marcus Bow.

[Connor]

This was an interesting guard.

[Todd McShay]

I had him ranked 63rd. He went 154 men. That's almost a hundred spots. I went back. I. I sent some text there. It wasn't a medical thing. He had. He had the broken leg in 2023. Remember we. We want. It was interesting. So mention. I are watching him in Mobile. I think we're actually watching. We kind of watched a couple tackles. Also watching Texas A M's defensive front. We're watching Scorton and the Shamars and all that. And we watched an early. Was it Oregon? It's just off the top of my head. I want us. Or maybe we watched or we watched Connerly. We watched a game early in the season. I can pull it up and. And he was really struggling and we were surprised.

[Connor]

Yeah. Wasn't the field wet?

[Todd McShay]

The field was wet. He was losing his ground. But. But it. It turns out right.

[Connor]

It was Oregon. It was Oregon.

[Todd McShay]

It was Oregon. I thought it was Oregon. It was a wet field. He like it looked like his. He didn't trust his footing. It looked like what I didn't. Because we, I was watching the tape before I did the background and all that stuff. This is back in January. What I didn't realize was he was coming off like broken leg the year before. Okay. And talking to scouts like yeah, the tape early wasn't, wasn't as good as, as the tape late. And I was like, I know like I remember asking this question. He was still recovering like and gaining confidence and trust in his leg and still was recovering. But, but as the, the season went on and we started watching the tape like we watch against like Ohio we watched some physical because then let me take a step back. Very athletic, great range, gets out on polls and really good in. In zone blocking scheme. But the questions were always is he strong enough? Is he physical at the point of attack? He's going to be in his own blocking scheme but does he and he's got those short 32 inch arms and so while he wants to play left tackle and is adamant he's going to. He's probably going to have to kick in the guard. And so now he's going up against grown ass men. 310, 330, not 280, not Jack Sawyer and Tui Molalao. Okay. He's going up against so that, that's why he falls. But I love this tape late and, and I, and I saw a different player and I just, I, I like this pick. I look at this is the intriguing part for me is for the New York. No, it's for the New York Giants. Right. The intriguing part for me is and I, and I remember you and I both talking about it and I don't remember if you agreed with me or not. You probably did. You probably got the idea in my head. But I remember saying with Marcus Bow, who is a fifth round pick, right? Yeah. Fifth round pick. I remember saying us talking about man he'd be good at center. Yes, he'd be good at center.

[Connor]

That's. That seems, it seems like he's built to play that position.

[Todd McShay]

Now they've got, they've got John Michael Schmitz. I don't know the contract. You know, second round pick 20, 23. I don't know what the future is there but my point is whether it's a tackle guard, it's probably not a tackle guard or center. Yeah. It gives them some versatility and I, and I think that they nailed it. But what's my lesson here? 32 inch arms, not physical enough. An undersized guy who's going to kick inside. You better be sure about the center part because if not, we may have a guy who, yeah, moves really well, but might get his ass handed to him inside.

[Connor]

Yeah. You know, was something that was interesting to me is when I watched him on tape, he has some unusual pass sets that not a lot of guys use at tackle where he almost attacks and then steps back. It's almost like a head fake. And he does, he does these kind of different pass sets. And to me, there was even a coach at the Senior bowl after a one on one rep and, and he won, he won the rep and he kind of jumped out at the guy and then kind of backpedaled. And the coach on the defensive line said, no one sets like that, man. Like that's just not a thing. You don't do that. And then they blew the whistle. And I remember thinking to myself, man, that is that going to scare away some teams? It's just so unusual. And then it's funny how, how things work. I'm on X one day and Joe Thomas releases a video of all the different pass sets he had in the league. And I was like, man, there's a lot of different ways to do it. And he just, it was, it was good for me to see because he had mixed up all these different sets that he had used and he, and Bo was good about it, he was good about how he used it and mixed it in and all that stuff. So it was a good learning experience for me of, you know, coaches coach it differently, players use it differently and all of those things. And if it works, it works. But at the end of the day, I think you're right, it's going to be that length, it's going to be that position fit and how physical he is.

[Todd McShay]

This is fun, man. Yeah, it was good. Yeah. Little self assessment, self inflicted wounds only time. But it's fun to do.

[Connor]

We each only made four mistakes. It's great.

[Todd McShay]

I think I made six. McMillan, Kelvin Bay. I didn't even get to Tyler Booker, Vernon Broughton, Jalen Noel, Braden Swenson, Marcus, Bob. So there's my. Yeah, this is fun. We got a bunch coming up. We're back on Thursdays, Mondays and Thursdays in the off season. Check out the McShay report. We got a lot again, we had meetings today. We had like, I don't know, between like 4 and 600 different like responses and questions and things to do in the off season. We're actually spending time consolidating it, going through and truly trying to provide for you guys in our audience what you're asking for this off season. We're also on the back end starting to grind tape now 2026 draft the prospects, the every position and we're going to roll out a whole series in July and then in August. I'm coming back. I'm going to. I was thinking about this name stew on this mensch before we go.

[Connor]

Oh, boy, oh boy.

[Todd McShay]

What was it?

[Connor]

Did you run this by Marissa first? I hope I did.

[Todd McShay]

And she actually, she, she gave me one of those like half ass chuckles and I'm worried I'm gonna forget it now. Whereas, like, yeah, that's fine, that'll work, you know, like, roll your eyes.

[Connor]

She didn't say no.

[Todd McShay]

You think almost like you think you're clever, don't you? The way too early mock we already released and you can check that out on YouTube, Spotify and subscribe to the McShay Report if you want to read the whole thing. We go into deep and we explain the whole Arch Manning situation to you as well. Why can't I remember? But I wanted to. So in August, I'm going to do the first ever. I was going to say appropriately, way too early. Appropriately early. Appropriately early. That's what it was.

[Connor]

Appropriately, way too early. Appropriately.

[Todd McShay]

And then the appropriately early like because it's appropriate because we've actually watched tape and we, we know the players and I actually feel good about plugging a guy in versus I've seen four minutes of a highlight clip where I was watching a different player and I saw him or I talked to a scout and they think that like that. But it's a good exercise. It's a fun exercise. But, but that will, that will be part of our off season work as we get ready for the the 2026, 2025 college football season in NFL. All right, we're out of here. Trying not to go over an hour. I think I just did it later. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18/ plus and present in D.C. gambling problem, call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-78-97777 or visit cc pg.org chat in Connecticut or visit MD gambling help.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit Gambling Helpline ma.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 247 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York SA.