Shedeur to the Browns? Plus, the 2025 Running Back Deep Dive

Summary

Podcast Summary: The McShay Show – "Shedeur to the Browns? Plus, the 2025 Running Back Deep Dive"

Release Date: March 17, 2025

Hosts: Todd McShay and Tucker

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1. Shedeur Sanders Potential Move to the Cleveland Browns

In the opening segment, Todd McShay and Tucker delve into the intriguing possibility of Shedeur Sanders being selected by the Cleveland Browns in the upcoming NFL Draft. This discussion centers around the strategic fit Sanders might have within the Browns' current roster and the broader implications for the team's future.

Key Points:

• Team Needs and Constraints: The Browns are grappling with their quarterback situation, primarily due to the onerous contract of Deshaun Watson. This financial burden restricts their cap space, making the selection of Sanders—a quarterback on a rookie contract—a potentially strategic move.

  Todd McShay [17:01]: "We know Cam Ward's expected to be the number one overall pick. Given everything, I truly believe Shedeur Sanders is in play with that number two pick for the Cleveland Browns."

• Sanders’ Fit with the Browns: Sanders is perceived as a solid, if not elite, quarterback prospect. His skill set aligns with what Browns' head coach Kevin Stefanski has successfully utilized in the past, transforming pocket passers into effective game managers.

  Tucker [18:54]: "He has to be [picked by the Browns] for all the reasons you mentioned for the need."

• Comparative Analysis of Other Teams: The discussion also touches upon other teams like Tennessee and the Giants, assessing their potential interest in Sanders based on their draft positions and existing team dynamics.

  Todd McShay [21:24]: "There's at least one team, maybe two, that's not on the list because of the organization."

Conclusion: The Browns are likely to prioritize securing a quarterback like Sanders to alleviate their current roster constraints and build a sustainable future.

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2. The 2025 Running Back Class Deep Dive

Transitioning from quarterbacks, Todd and Tucker shift focus to the 2025 running back class, which they herald as one of the strongest in NFL draft history. This segment breaks down the running back prospects into distinct tiers, providing comprehensive evaluations of each player’s strengths, weaknesses, and potential NFL impact.

Key Points:

Tier 1: Blue Chip Prospects

• Ashton Jinty

  Ashton is lauded for his exceptional ability to break tackles and his remarkable vision on the field. Despite concerns over pass protection, his explosive running style and efficiency make him the top prospect in this class.

  Tucker [37:18]: "His ability to break tackles... impossible to tackle the man."

• Omarion Hampton

  Hampton complements Jinty with his power and agility, making him a formidable force both in the run and passing games.

Tier 2: Versatile Performers

• Trayvon Henderson & Quinshawn Judkins

  Both are recognized for their explosive running capabilities and improved vision, positioning them as strong contenders in the early rounds.

• Caleb Johnson & Cameron Scatterboo

  Johnson is praised for his efficient yards per carry and strong pass-catching abilities, while Scatterboo stands out for his ruggedness and versatility.

Tier 3: High Potential Backups

• RJ Harvey, Dylan Sampson, DJ Giddens, Jordan James

  These players are seen as dynamic assets who can contribute significantly in specialized roles, with Harvey and Sampson being particularly noteworthy for their explosive playmaking abilities.

Tier 4: Early Down Power Backs

• Brashard Smith, Bashul Tutin, Damien Martinez, Devin Neal, Quinn Allen, Trevor Etienne, Jaden Blues Burner, Marcus Yarner Burner

  These prospects bring specific strengths, such as pass protection and downhill running, making them valuable depth pieces for teams looking to bolster their backfield.

Comparative Insights:

Todd and Tucker compare the 2025 RB class to historic cohorts, citing the 2017 draft as a benchmark for excellence. They argue that the current class surpasses past iterations in depth and versatility.

Todd McShay [30:21]: "This is arguably the best running back class in the history of the draft."

Notable Player Comparisons:

• Ashton Jinty is likened to top-tier backs like Alvin Kamara and Saquon Barkley due to his dual-threat capabilities.

• Trayvon Henderson draws comparisons to Bucky Irving for his compact build and elusive running style.

Conclusion: The depth and talent of the 2025 running back class offer NFL teams a wealth of options, enabling strategic drafting based on specific team needs and offensive schemes.

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3. Key Insights and Conclusions

The episode concludes with Todd and Tucker reflecting on the unparalleled depth of the current running back class and its implications for NFL teams. They emphasize the importance of nuanced tape analysis over mere statistical evaluation, underscoring the complexity of player assessment in the modern draft landscape.

Key Insights:

• Tape Over Metrics: Both hosts advocate for a thorough examination of game tape, highlighting how physical traits like size and speed must be contextualized within a player's actual performance and technical proficiency.

  Todd McShay [97:02]: "It has to be the tape. That's got to be the foundation."

• Strategic Drafting: With the robust RB class, teams have the flexibility to draft running backs in the middle to later rounds without sacrificing overall team competitiveness, allowing for the selection of true value prospects.

• Upcoming Mock Draft: The hosts tease their forthcoming mock draft scheduled for Thursday, promising continued in-depth analysis and strategic projections.

  Todd McShay [104:56]: "Subscribe to the McShay Report. Google it if you don't know where to get it and you'll have the first thing you wake up Thursday morning. It will be there and our podcast will also be there."

Closing Thoughts:

Todd and Tucker express their enthusiasm and dedication to providing comprehensive draft coverage, emphasizing their commitment to deep analytical dives that benefit both casual fans and dedicated followers of the NFL Draft.

Tucker [90:35]: "It's just fun to watch this entire class."

Todd McShay [104:56]: "We appreciate everyone taking the time."

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Notable Quotes

• Todd McShay [17:01]: "We know Cam Ward's expected to be the number one overall pick. Given everything, I truly believe Shedeur Sanders is in play with that number two pick for the Cleveland Browns."

• Tucker [37:18]: "His ability to break tackles... impossible to tackle the man."

• Todd McShay [30:21]: "This is arguably the best running back class in the history of the draft."

• Todd McShay [97:02]: "It has to be the tape. That's got to be the foundation."

• Todd McShay [104:56]: "Subscribe to the McShay Report. Google it if you don't know where to get it and you'll have the first thing you wake up Thursday morning. It will be there and our podcast will also be there."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The McShay Show provides a comprehensive analysis of both quarterback and running back prospects for the 2025 NFL Draft, with a particular emphasis on the potential impact of Shedeur Sanders on the Cleveland Browns and the exceptional depth of the current running back class. Todd McShay and Tucker offer in-depth evaluations, strategic insights, and passionate commentary, making it a valuable resource for anyone interested in the intricacies of NFL Draft scouting and team-building strategies.

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For more detailed mock drafts, rankings, and exclusive content, subscribe to The McShay Report here.

Transcript

[A]

It's the McShay show, presented by FanDuel. The NFL Draft is right around the corner and FanDuel is the best place to get in on all the action. The app is safe, secure and easy to use. FanDuel always has exclusive offers. When you win, you'll get paid instantly. And FanDuel has a lot of ways to bet the draft, with loads more coming between now and the first pick. So download the FanDuel Sportsbook app today and make every moment more during the NFL Draft, the Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg d help.com to learn more about resources and helplines available and listen to the end of this episode for additional details. Must be 21 and older and present in select states. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit RG D help.com this episode is brought to you by no Bullshit. Every day is an opportunity to grow stronger. Especially when you've got Best in class award winning footwear backing you up. NO bowl is a footwear brand for training and for daily life built to support you in your pursuit of physical, mental and emotional strength. And get this exclusive for the McShay show listeners. No ball is offering 30% off your order. Visit NoAll Project.com McShay for 30% off your your entire order. That's N O B U-L L P R-O-J-E-C-T.com backslash McShay for 30% off. Shador Sanders is going to be a Cleveland Brown. Plus we kick off our position group series with the best running back class in at least eight years, maybe ever. There is no time to waste today. 38 days till the NFL Draft met you good?

[B]

I'm good man.

[A]

Good. Hit it. The thing I think we fail to do sometimes, men, is to put ourselves in the shoes of each individual team. Those decision makers. Okay, it's easy to look at things globally, right? Such like thoughts like Shador would have been a quarterback five or quarterback six last year or Shador Sanders. He has these weaknesses. He doesn't have the biggest arm. He doesn't have elite mobility. Or in my case, I talked to a couple personnel people from teams drafting quarterbacks that are in the top 10. And and they were underwhelmed and surprised by their interviews and meetings with Shador at the combine during those 15 minutes. It's easy to do the global thing right, but what matters to most teams doesn't always apply to all right, so some things got me thinking this weekend I I've been grinding and I know you have been too on for a long time. We have been but knowing that we're breaking it up into positional groups and we're going to get to running backs today and what an awesome group it is. It was only confirmed by all the tape I've been studying the last like six, seven days going back and re racking all these guys really like one after another the tape to make sure I'm comfortable because this is it. Okay. But in the midst of all this and my commenters, I've noticed by the way, the McShay report. Please Google it if you want to subscribe be a part of this. I, I think we're producing some pretty good magic if you will. A lot of good content things we're hearing, analysis, kind of moving the conversations forward, mock drafts, rankings, all those things. Google the McShay Report. You can go get it and, and it's real easy once you Google it to subscribe. $4 to get you through this draft. 36 double down get get you through this draft and next year's draft. Also men tell the people how they can help.

[B]

Listen. Hit the follow button on Spotify. Hit the subscribe Button on the McShay YouTube channel. Follow us on Instagram and Twitter. He's at @mcshay13 I'm at you good mensch. That's M U e n C h And listen, please consider subscribing to the McShay report. I mean Todd does not take it lightly that he's asking for some of your hard earned money and he is, I promise he's going to do his best to deliver. Honestly. We're really excited about the community we're building here. We're reading the comments. We're trying to learn from, from our mistakes, learn what we're doing right too. This is only going to get better from here and we really appreciate any the time that people are taking to kind of invest in the show.

[A]

Well, you're getting better at this and I don't like it. But you mentioned the, you mentioned the comments off of my comment about the comments. And, and I, and I do have to get a chuckle because pe the commenters aren't totally wrong. Bill Simmons and I were texting this weekend and he, he my phone's right here, right. And I'm like, and, and I was like I'm going to stop down for a minute. Like I want to, I want to see some back background on this and to provide background because I know everyone's not following this as Closely as our, as we are the Browns play by play broadcaster Andrew Siciliano, who you probably know NFL Network and the formerly the Red Zone and all those things. Great guy too. He had Miles Garrett on. Miles Garrett hinted that he knew what the quarterback situation was. I, there was a quote in there said I, I like it enough in regards to the quarterback situation and does he know what the future is going to be? Are you comfortable with it? He said, I like it enough to be here smiling in front of you because I think we have a good chance of that happening and making the most of it. So right away everyone started thinking, was it a, is it a veteran quarterback he's talking about? Is it, is it Cam Ward trading up to number one? But then if you kind of followed along, everyone's like, well, the only person that they're guaranteed to have at the quarterback position where money doesn't come into a factor and will be there at number two is Shador Sanders, right? So then more smoke kind of supporting that theory. Shador Sanders exchanges pleasantries, if you will, with the Cleveland Guardians top prospect Travis Bazana on Instagram. It's like, I don't pedal in this stuff, man. I really don't like the rumor mongling and all that stuff. But you start to look at and you're like, maybe I should take a minute on this, right? Maybe I should look at this whole situation and instead of being like he doesn't have the arm, the winters are horrible in Cleveland. It's not the right place for him. Does he want to go there? They're also, you know, there's been some stuff out there. He only plays with the Browns from Madden and like so, so there's a lot to unpack here, right? But I do think maybe some of the conspiracy theorists could be on to something here, right? For starters, it is apparent that the Cleveland's on the list of acceptable spots, right? Because if Shador is messing around with Bazana, who had to look up by the way, I, I'm, I hate to admit it, but I like, I used to be the biggest Red Sox baseball fan in the history of the world.

[B]

No idea.

[A]

Right? But if he's messing around with that and has shown some interest there and there's talks about the Browns and he only plays them on Maddens and all that Madden and all that stuff, like you start to think, well maybe, maybe that's on one of the list of the teams that's acceptable for Coach prime and for Shador and their team, right? And that's not the case for every other team. Right. I talked to you about two other teams that he met with. Their responses were it didn't seem like Shador cared a whole heck of a lot compared to every other prospect that's coming in here about what we thought of him. Right. And so you start to think about it, like, so is it. We know we'd love to go one to Tennessee if Cleveland's on that list. I've only heard reports that the Giants could be on that list of teams that are acceptable, too. And so that's interesting, right, because that part's important. We've been talking about this since, like, October. Shador is going to control. And by control, it's not like I'm going to pluck him on one team. It's. There are some organizations my son's not going to go play for. Right. And I can tell you this. I'm never going to reveal who those two people were or the organizations they work for or anything more than I revealed in the McShay report. But I will reveal this. Those two members were not from the Cleveland Browns. Okay? So they are not crossed off the list. In my. From my standpoint, from where I sit today, we also know this. I'm just trying to go through the facts. We also know Cam Ward's expected to be the number one overall pick. Whether it's Tennessee picking there or team moving up to that number one spot, all the information I'm getting is that that's the most likely situation at the top of the draft. So maybe there's some fire to this smoke, maybe there isn't. But either way, I, I want. I want this show to constantly. And we talk about this a lot. Mensch off the air. It's. It's our job. With the information we have and with the, the tape we study and with the experience that we have to advance the narrative, we can be like every other show in the world. Come on. But you see Bazano and, and, and Cleveland and, and Miles Garrett, and we could do that rumor stuff and, like, put rumors on top of rumors. But that's why I stopped down for a few hours and I started to do two things. I made a conscious decision to come sit up here in my office and. And do some research on Kevin Stefanski, who he's worked with in the past, putting myself in Andrew Berry, the general manager for the Cleveland Browns shoes, and trying to figure out what, like, what are his options? What are. Where is he with the salary cap? Where is he in terms of what his Options are at that quarterback position. Where is this roster now, which is pretty good. What's missing? Quarterback. And then also make a couple calls to people who have been or are in that seat as a general manager in the NFL so that I can take myself out of that global thinking for a minute of, well, he doesn't have the arm strength and he's not going. He's not going to top three prospect. He could be falling. I talked to a couple of people from different organizations that think he doesn't want to go there and. And talking to them about, okay, if you're in charge of the Browns, given their circumstances and how handcuffed they are, they're more handcuffed than any other organization by one contract. Deshaun Watson. Right. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I did all those things for Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski specifically. You believe in what you're doing, right? You've built a good roster. You believe in yourself as a coach and the history you've had in the winning you've done. You also know that you need to win at some point real soon to save your job. Drafting at number two, having the season they had, stacking those consecutively is not going to cut it, but you need to be able to. So, like, you believe in what you're doing. And, you know, if we have time and a few years to build this thing and we get the quarterback and we can insert it. We got Miles Garrett now locked down. We brought in Jerry Judy. We got. We got Denzel, cornerback, Denzel Ward. Like, we've got pieces that are hard to get in this league, but we need a minute. We need a minute. Give us a little bit of time. The problem is, if we're picking here at 2 again and have a chance to draft one of those top quarterbacks, it's probably going to be somebody else making those decisions and probably going to be somebody else coaching those players. Right. So how do you solve the crisis? They have a crisis at the quarterback position and whether it was ownership forced upon them, however it worked out, they're stuck with this situation. Deshaun Watson was the worst contract given to an individual maybe in the history of sports. Right?

[B]

Yeah. It's not hyperbole.

[A]

I think it truly isn't. So how do we. How do we manage with the handcuffs off? What's our best path? Right. They know they've got a roster good enough to win a lot of games in 2025 and probably for the next two seasons because of those guys. I've told you, they just need solid Quarterback play. They don't need elite quarterback play. They don't. They need solid quarterback play. They did not get that from desean Watson. That's what happened last year. They also know that they won't have the money. They don't have the money to sign a top tier guy. They weren't in on Stafford. This is not a pluck, pay and play situation for them. And that's not changing in 2026. So as I'm putting myself in Andrew Berry's shoes, I'm saying what, like organizationally, what's our way out of purgatory? They're in purgatory because of deshaun Watson. It's only to draft and get a quarterback on a rookie contract. It truly is. These two things are true. Okay, hear me. And Barry has to be thinking these things. One, they can't expect to be drafting this high again for a while. They're too good. That roster's too good. Okay. And if they are, as I said, Barry and Stefanski are very likely out of jobs. Number two, because of the Watson deal, you don't have the cap space to make it a big ticket signing, as I just said. So it ain't next year in the draft for a quarterback or else you're out of a job probably. And it's not going to be this year or next year signing a big, big name guy who can come in and solve it all. So I'm saying all this to reiterate. Cleveland's best chance winning short and long term is to strike gold with this number two pick. So let's start asking the questions. Let's dig. Let's dig in. Is Shador an elite prospect?

[B]

No.

[A]

Which adore have been a top four or five quarterback taken last year?

[B]

No.

[A]

But if I'm Barry, here's how I see it and this is the difference. When I say globally versus each situation and organization individually, if I'm. If I'm Andrew Berry, and this is the most important thing I'm going to say all day, my greatest asset in this whole mess is my head coach. Stefanski is my greatest asset. Why? Because Stefanski has a proven track record of getting the most out of pocket passing quarterbacks with limited mobility. Okay. Sound familiar?

[B]

Yeah. Right? Yeah.

[A]

I mean, Shador skill set is strikingly similar to a handful of quarterbacks that Stefanski's had, had and had won a lot of get. Not just like a few, a lot of games with in the past, including case Keena won 11 games with the Vikings. Stefanski was a quarterback coach in 2017, Kirk Cousins Vikings team won 10 games under Stefanski with Cousins as OC in 2019. Most recently late career Joe Flacco still a big arm, but not the arm he had in Baltimore Elite.

[B]

Joe Flacco. Yeah.

[A]

And. And can't. And can't move at all. Okay. And even won healthy games with a health with. He won games with a Health Healthy DeShawn Watson and he won a couple games with PJ Walker and Jeff Driscoll. Okay. The only person, the only player at that quarterback position Stefanski has not won with is a confidence shattered, distracted and physically broken down. DeSean Watson, every other quarterback he's won with and they've all been pocket passing quarterbacks with less than elite arm strength and with less than desirable mobility give Stefanski a confident healthy pocket passer. History tells us they're going to win a lot of games together. Right. Also working for Barry, Andrew Barry and the Browns organization is Sanders is seemingly. He wants to be a Brown or they're on the short list of teams that he wants to play for and for Cleveland Mensch. That's. That's not nothing given their just dreadful quarterback history. So that's a bit like someone wants to come play with us. And, and when he's protected and playing in rhythm, he's the best pure pocket passer in this class. Okay, so why. So I'm going to ask this question. Why they. Why did we bring in Kenny Pickett? Why has there been talk about Russell Wilson? If, if you're so right, McJ, and you're on to something and Shador could be the picket number two. Why. Why are we doing those things?

[B]

Yeah, Michael, why are we doing those things?

[A]

Because if Shador isn't ready in week one, it may be maybe like Drake may like they'll be a lot more comfortable rolling them out there in week five, six, seven. You know what I mean? Kenny Pickett can win some games.

[B]

Yeah, but why do both? Then why get. Why get Wilson and Pickett?

[A]

That was the next question. If they can get Russell on the cheap and it doesn't cost anything, isn't it better to have a few bulls in the china shop duking it out to see who's the winner?

[B]

If you have three quarterbacks, you have.

[A]

Yeah, but you're Cleveland, man. You're Cleveland. And you are literally in quarterback purgatory. So I, I'm. Listen, I'm not sitting here today saying, and I know I opened it with Shador Sanders is going to be a Cleveland Brown, but this is the this would be the reason why Shador Sanders would be the number two overall pick. Makes sense to me. It makes sense to some people who have sat in that chair or sitting in that chair, know what they're talking about. Not ideal. You wish it was Jaden Daniels last year, but it's the best of the litter this year. And if you're not picking there next year and your free agency salary cap situation is not changing because it's desean Watson, Watson, hell that they're in. So let all three battle it out in camp. Best man wins and best man wins to start the season. Maybe. And then you. At some point, Stefanski is going to know, all right, Shador's ready. All I'm going to say is this, given everything that I just said, and it's your floor. A week ago, I glossed over Cleveland taking Shador at number two. Right now, I believe, and I want you to hear me when I say this, I truly believe Shedor Sanders is in play with that number two pick for the Cleveland Browns.

[B]

Oh, he has to be. He has to be for all the reasons you mentioned for the. The need. Listen, you talk about globally. I love living in my. My bubble. The mensch bubble is great, man, because in the men bubble, in the men's bubble, I'm going to the owner and saying, look, man, I need two years. I'm going to take a great player, too. We can get a great player or two. We're not going to get the quarterback. We're going to get. We're going to bring in Russell. We're gonna have Pickett as the. As the backup, and that's what we're gonna have to roll with this year. And then next year we're gonna see where the quarter market, quarterback market is. We're going to address it then. You know, right now is not the right time for us to pull the trigger. That's my world, right? That. That's not a real world. That just. It doesn't work like that. Match it just, you know, everyone knows that it doesn't work like that or just trade back and get them later on. Well, it doesn't work like that. So, you know, the Giants will probably take three if he's there. I think so. Saying that and acknowledging that I don't think Shador Sanders is an elite quarterback, I get it. I still get taking him there because even though I don't think that Shador is an elite quarterback prospect in the Jaden Daniels mold or the Drake May mold or the Caleb Williams mold, I think he has a chance to be a really good starter in the league. So in that sense, you go out and get him. I will say this. This is what's amazing to me about this. And it's kind of funny with the Stafford comment, too. If Cleveland's on the list of places he'll go. Who's not on the list? Who's not on the list? Because I get it. Stefanski. I get the, I get the draw. I get the roster, too. The draw of playing for Stefanski. And I get the, the roster and I get all that. And I mean no disrespect to the Cleveland organization, by the way. I grew up watching Browns games and the Dog Pound and thinking they were like one of the coolest organizations in the league. That wasn't my hometown team. I love the Browns, but the idea that, that they're somehow on the list and who. Who's not on the list.

[A]

No. Okay, good. I'm glad you asked. I'm glad you asked. Knowing what I know and being privy to the information I have that I can only share a certain. A fraction of. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I can tell you this much. There's at least one team, maybe two, that's not on the list because of the organization, and there's one team, maybe two, that's not on the list just simply because of where they pick is my guess. And I don't think I, I know. I don't think it says like deep and back channel issue. Like, I think the first three teams are probably on the list because they're, they're drafting with the first, second and third pick, to be quite honest.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, but I also will say this.

[B]

What's the criteria for this list?

[A]

I want to know. He's got a head coach that can coach quarterbacks, right?

[B]

Yeah. All three.

[A]

All three have head coaches.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Cleveland Browns have a head coach. Great track record. Brian D. I've told you what I believe in him in terms of how he can develop a quarterback. So it makes it easy for the, for the Sanders team, for the Shador Sanders coach Prime team to look at those top three picks and be like, yes, they're the top three picks, but they also have head coaches that can, can coach the position and can get the most out of. Get the most out of my son.

[B]

Agree.

[A]

All right, it's time to move on. Like I Normally I'd go 20 more minutes. Let's talk about it. We just hit the 20 minute mark. Tucker promised he's going to keep me on, on pace Today, if you want to read the rest of it, it's in the McShay. The McShay report. Google it.

[B]

Yeah, this won't be the last of it. I mean, this is going to be ongoing, and it's great. It's. It's. Yes, it's great to talk about.

[A]

Also in the McShay report that came out this morning is some of the deep dive into our running backs. We're going to do evaluations in there. Some. Some graphics, some. Some video that I. I did separate from, like, the video that we're cooking.

[B]

On X right now.

[A]

By the way, I'm on Get on X. Oh, brother. I'm on McShay 13. Team McShay 13 at Instagram. I've never produced more video. I'm just like, I think it's because we. And I want to thank PFF Ultimate. I think it's because we, like, of how precise the breakdowns are and how easy it is to go. Like, when I'm watching running backs now. And this is a good segue. We're getting in the running backs. We're doing a positional series. Okay. And I should mention, before we transition, Thursday is the mock draft.

[B]

We're not talking about schedule, but Thursdays of the mock post.

[A]

The first wave and the. And the count, the Countdown 2. And the first wave of free agency. My goodness. We know a whole lot more now, right? And the information is important. So Thursday is the mock draft. If you want to get. If you want to get the McShay report and actually get the full mock draft, it's. It's at your disposal. Google the McShay Report. That's gonna be Thursday. That'll be Thursday's show. But we are like, we are in the weeds right now. I don't even have time for this. Okay, running backs, the beauty is now it's like, all right, I'm going to pff. And I'm able to cut up with our relationship with, you know, our game tape and, like, the way that it all marries. I can go watch the key plays for pass protection, go watch the key plays in the receiving game, then go watch all the, all the plays from in the run game and, and get through more tape more efficiently. And that's what. When we talked to Matt Casario, he said it's the number one thing that's changed in scouting is the efficiency of tape study. And that allows me to free up 10 minutes, to stop down, clip a few plays and to provide these things on Instagram and, and, and Twitter. That I've done in. In years past, but I've been so limited. It's like I got to do one put now I can like stack them. So these running backs and we're going to do this positional position group series. We're starting with running backs historically one of the. We're talking about one of the best groups of all time. I want to start with this though. I always argue when people say, well, the running backs are down, the running back positions down, the running back positions up. It's trending this way. It's cyclical. Like of course, you know, five, six years without the running back. Now the reason things are cyclical in the NFL and the reason why we're seeing an uptick in my estimation, in the estimation of a lot of people in the league. The reason we saw a dip was because of the. The over like the unbelievable. It's almost. How do I put this in life? I think you notice that thing. There'll be trends, whether it's political, business, any aspect in life. We have a 10 dating. I talked about dating. We have a tendency to go from one extreme to another because we got too much of that extreme. Well, in football it's not all that different because what happens is all of a sudden tempo was happening in college and and we weren't having and and more importantly spread and find and creating ways to get guys who were playmakers the ball in space. And so it went from this ground and pound Norris division three yards in a cloud of dust to oh, there's ways to get the ball in space and supplement the run game. And my running back doesn't have to be 30, 35 carries a game. They don't have to look like Derek Henry for us to be successful. Right. So that happened for a long time and there's still absolutely a critical part of our game. But I always go back to just because it's a funny anecdote and we're going to get Kuiper on pretty soon. I've actually supposed to call. I got to call him back. We keep trading calls. One of my favorite and I would have murdered him if I was on espn, but when he said we just have to ban Cover 2 in the NFL, of course it's insane. But his point, I don't know what his overarching point or the seriousness level of that comment, but his point was we're seeing all these great quarterbacks be limited to Chuck, check down Charlie's and all that stuff. And so how do you. So now that the League with all have gone so far one way with the Boston game and spreads and all that. The only way to defeat it as a defensive coordinator is we got to play a lot of COVID Two shells, two high safeties, protect ourselves from the vertical, make them, make them drive down the field without making a mistake. All those things. Right. So now the running back becomes more valuable because the best way to beat a team that's dropped off. And can I tell my 10 year old son this right now and I'm not one of those lunatic dads, but he just want, he's curious about like how like what are you looking for and how like if they got two safeties high and your quarterbacks at the line screaming about something, he's probably checking to a run because it means you got a smaller or you know, a lesser box.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so running backs are now coming back and becoming more important. Right.

[B]

So you want to take you, you want to use that big play receiver on the outside. You want to get them out of too high. Look, that was the first thing I said if you, you don't want to ban too high. Looks like if you want to get him out of it, start running the ball. You would get, get heavy boxes, force them to drop a safety into the box and then receivers are going to get more single coverage on the outside.

[A]

But what doesn't change match is if talent is their talent gets drafted.

[B]

Agree with this.

[A]

So we were, we were in the weeds in 2017 of spreads and up tempo and, and passing is right.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And like the most running backs ever. I think it's high for or at least in two decades, whatever it was were drafted in 2017. And everyone's comparing this class and let's throw up that graphic, Tucker. Everyone's comparing this class to 2017. So it's kind of a convergence. Convergence of two things. Yes. Running back is starting to become more in vogue as we've got to have guys who are difference maker at the running back position who are, who can help us counter all this cover two that we're seeing in the defenses. It's driving us crazy. We want to go deep but we can't. So we got to have a back who's a difference maker. And this class is absolutely loaded. And if it was in 2017 we'd be saying the same thing. It doesn't matter if running back is being devalued. That was the word we talked about over and over again. Devalued. They're still going to come off the board. Now the Difference is they may come off the board a little earlier this year. And I want you to look if you're watching on YouTube or Spotify the video, we've got this graphic here. Tucker does an amazing job of all of my crazy thoughts and I send them texts all hours of the day. But on the left hand side, it's our top 18 running backs that we're focusing on the first four rounds of the draft. Those are guys have grades anything 60 above. We don't view the grade necessarily as round, but it typically equates to where the round they're going. Okay, 60 and above, starting with Ashton Genti, down to Omari and Hampton, number two, the two Ohio State running backs, Henderson Judkins, Caleb Johnson, Iowa Cameron Scatterboo and a whole bunch of other other names that we'll get into in this show today. But the reason we're putting this up is the comparison and the three year average. I've talked to you about the Bill Belichick, if you want to like go back three years, don't go back five. Three years will give you a feel if you're setting your board and trying to figure out where to draft. And while you can argue with Bill Belichick and the players he picked sometimes in certain positions, the struggles they had in New England, you can't argue with his draft management and understanding the board and where guys are going to come off the board. So I put this up for you. Look at this year's class mensch. In the first four rounds we have grades equivalent to 18 prospects coming off the board. There were 15 in 2017. We're talking about arguably what most people would argue the best running back class in the history of the draft. And yeah, you can go back. There was 29, 2011 were 29 guys drafted but only one first rounder. You can go back old school when, when everything we were talking about the ground and pound and, and, and there were 30 drafted in that 1998 class with Curtis Enis and Fred Taylor and Robert Edwards and John Avery and John Richie and Ba Ba, Ba Ba Ba. But when you look at this year's.

[B]

Group, 2008 class is pretty good, man. That one might be.

[A]

Yeah, okay. But anyway, five first round running backs, we're stack, we're stacking this with the.

[B]

Historic groups and this right up there, man. Better they're in the conversation what they.

[A]

Turn out to be in the NFL. Time will tell, the situations they're in, health, all those things.

[B]

Right.

[A]

From a prospect standpoint, it's like eight guys in the. Eight guys more in the first four rounds could come off the board than the three year average. And. And three or five, I forget what it was. More or three more guys than that historic 2017 class. So with all of that as kind of the backdrop, the reasons why running backs are becoming more valued, the devalue era is over. The reason why this group is as good as it is. It all comes down to the talent. I broke it up into tears. I want to look at it real quickly before we start getting into these. Okay. And again, these are my rankings. These are my rankings that you'll see in the McShay report. Mensch has his own rankings. He's a tough guy now. You know, he's doing his own thing. He's all growns up. No, but Mention's got his own rankings. But that, that actually makes for great conversation here. We used to fight behind the scenes. Now we can do it in front of all of you. Here are my tears match and I'm curious to get a quick comment on this. And then let's get into the actual players. Tier one, Ginty and Hampton, Tier two. And this one's tough because I could almost break it into two. And I'm excited to get to these guys because I've got some stuff for you. That's Trayvon Henderson, Quinshawn Judkins, Caleb Johnson, Cameron Scatterboo. Tier 3. These are guys we're talking about probably that in the third round range. RJ Harvey, Central Florida. Tennessee's Dylan Sampson, DJ Giddens, Kansas State, who I know we both really like. And Jordan James from Oregon. Then There's T Tier 4 talking like late third into the fourth round talking about Brashard Smith, former wide receiver, Miami to smu. Bashul Tutin who lit the combine on fire out of Virginia Tech. A grinder. Damien Martinez from Miami. Devin Neal we both love from Kansas la. Quinn Allen, who's a tall, big looks apart, not a great runner, but a great receiver. Trevor etn, Georgia Jaden Blues Burner and Marcus Yarner Burner from Texas and Delaware respectively. Those are my tears. Anything jump out right away before we get into the minute show of all this?

[B]

I don't hate them and I kind of like the way you describe that second tier. You could maybe go Henderson, Jenkins and then Johnson, Scatterboo. But they're all in that same conversation. There's a. I like where you split them, but there's a little bit of bleeding there. Right. You could. I think Henderson is maybe Ah man.

[A]

Let'S. Let's get it.

[B]

So there's a little bit of bleeding there. The other guy, I will say, because you talked about that, I think. Oh, we'll talk about it. But RJ Harvey I think is a guy that maybe sneaks into that.

[A]

Yeah, a little bit.

[B]

There's some bleeding there. But I don't hate where you, you put the lines.

[A]

All right, last thing before we dive in and we're going to separate into three groups. It's going to be the. The six blue chip prospects and I want to go through evaluations and dive into them. Then there's 10 versatile scat back types. We're gonna have to keep pacing today. I'm sorry if I'm talking fast, but it's the only way we're going to get this in. You're not going to get a lot of my scheduling talk and all that stuff. Tucker just sent me a 30 minute mark thing. He's keeping me on pace too. And then the final group when we get into these evaluations, early down power based backs. Okay. But I would. I do think it's important for our audience. Who are the teams drafting these guys? And I want to put up a. I don't even know if we have the list but. But it's changed dramatically from free agency as you would expect. I look at The Browns picks 2 and 33 in the first two rounds. They ain't picking a running back at 2. 33 potentially or early in the rounds three or four Patriots ain't picking one at four. Probably not even at 38. But rounds three and four good chance bears is it Ashton Jinty there 10. Is it Omari and Hampton they're going to go tight end. Is it still offensive line. But the Bears also pick at 39 and 41. Then the Broncos they lost Javante Williams, still have Audrick estimate and Jalil McLaughlin. But like I think they're up there in terms of the team that needs a running back most. They pick at 20 and 51. Then I would say some other teams not as pressing because of things that happen in free agency. The Raiders they get now get Raheem Mostert but he's not going to be your every down guys sincere McCormick they lost Amir Abdullah Alex Madison Steelers pick 21 don't have a second round pick because the DK it's not as pressing a knee. But I'm talking like third, fourth round they added Kenneth Gainwell with Jaylen Warren 49ers. My gosh, they have a lot of needs. But I, I do think later on they lost Jordan Mason, so they're going to need a Backup to Christian McAffrey, who from time to time will, will miss some games. So that's that. Let's get into. Let's put up the graphic. We've got six guys, in my opinion, who are blue chip prospects. And by that I mean every down future NFL RBs. Okay, I mentioned the names Ginty Hampton, Ohio State's Henderson and Judkins, Iowa's Caleb Johnson, Arizona's Cameron Sco. I'll let you start on Ashton Jinty and I want to do this as we go through all of them and I think with Jinty for a minute on historically, get back to historical young J. But as we go through all these, I want people to understand this is like 12 months of tape. This is breaking down every aspect of their game from pass protection to receiving to their run skills and traits. This is combining that with the analytics, the workouts at the combine, conversations with teams in the league about character, medical for durability purposes, everything. Like when I, when I tell you last night, when I finished up those players, they're done now, barring some medical issues I wasn't aware of, some character issues I wasn't aware of. Maybe a pro day here where something alarming comes out, like maybe there's a slight shift, but like the evaluation's done this, these rankings are set in my mind. This is, this is it. This goes to press.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I want in there as we go through it, unique traits, some weaknesses for all of them fits in terms of running schemes and zone gap, all that comps, if we've got them, shades of whatever people are calling it now, which I actually like more than NFL comps and projected round for all these guys. Ashton Jinty, I've done enough talking. You take the floor. What does your tape tell you?

[B]

I love to talk about superpowers with, with players. Right. And his superpower is his ability to, to break tackles. I mean, he is. No one's impossible to tackle the man, it's tough to get him on the ground. The contact balance, the way he's built. He's not a big back. I think he's 209. But he, the way he's built, he's built low to the ground. His lower body strength is impressive. How hard he runs, to me, that's, that's his superpower. But not far behind, and I know you talked about this on X a little bit, are the instincts, the, the vision, the patience, the instincts Understanding where. How to hit the hole, where that hole is going to open up. So those two things, when you add them together, are impressive. I know he didn't run at the combine. Don't care. He's. He's plenty fast enough. He's plenty explosive enough. I want to get into that a little bit more as we have this conversation about speed and backs, but, man, impossible, almost impossible to tackle. Great vision, great instincts. Makes guys miss runs hard. As a runner, I'm not sure there's much you could ask for. And then as a receiver, I mean, now you're getting him in space and trying to. And you're trying to tackle him in space. It's hard enough to do it between the tackles with a.

[A]

With a.

[B]

With a loaded box. Now you got this guy in the open field. Good luck. Just good luck. He deserves all of the praise that he's gotten, and I think he has, you know. You know, I'm not a big proponent of drafting running backs the first round, let alone early. He deserves to be drafted early.

[A]

You know, one thing that I think gets overlooked sometimes with Ashton Jente and sometimes, like these elite backs, because it's so easy to be enamored with and it's. And it's. Yes, it's a superpower. The. The breaking of tackles and, And. And making guys miss and those things. His vision is so freaking good. Like, his ability. I put up a clip yesterday on. On Instagram and. And X. His ability to sense a crease backside when the offensive line's flowing and, and then. And to sense it like most back. Yeah, we're flowing to the left. There's probably going to be a backside crease. Got it. But then to marry his feet and to do it so seamlessly, it's like, it's like watching. Like, it's like art. Like, I'm amazed at how, like, how. How were they able to take this piece of paper and some freaking pencils and turn it into that beauty? You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah, no, I do. I get it.

[A]

And then. And then on top of the vision, like, it's hard to explain, but I. It's one thing to have vision and, and try to get there because you know where you want to get. It's another than to be able to marry it with fear. Feet and body control that are so good that it's. You're on a rail and to shave the edges the way he shaves them. There's no wasted movement. There's. There's no false steps. It's like it's like watching a. A race car and it's like at the track with like a professional driver behind it put doing stunts. You know that to me, guys, when.

[B]

You have that kind of power, guys are usually a little bit tighter than that. And he's not. He. I mean, he can change. He's really fluid, changing directions.

[A]

Yeah. Good.

[B]

Do you have concerns? I know you talked about the pass protection.

[A]

It's not good, bud.

[B]

It's not got ran over a couple times and. And I think he can get there.

[A]

He'll put his face in the fire, he'll fight to protect, but more often than not, at this point, he just fails to execute. Shorter frame, you know, he has the explosive lower body, but like, it just. It gets him into tr. That shorter frame, I think gets him into Trouble. Like play 42 versus Georgia Southern. Play 39 Vers, Oregon Y there are plays where you're like, oh, I don't even know what the best technique in the world. Like, he's gonna have to get crafty. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now you're handing the. The ball a ton. You can throw something else.

[B]

I want to talk about.

[A]

We'll get there. You. You throw him the ball a bunch. But. But it's. No, no prospect is perfect. And that is an area that he's going to have to improve on, let's put it that way. I do like him a lot in the. In the passing game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't. I don't think he's elite. Elite, but I see shades of Alvin Kamara and shades of Saquan Barkley in like, what his role, like a lot of screens, outlets, dumps.

[B]

He led him. Yes. In receiving yards for running back last year.

[A]

Not.

[B]

No, last year. 2023. Sorry.

[A]

I have no trouble projecting him as an asset. And I think, honest to God, like, he is going to be an absolute weapon in the passing game, but it's not going to be in this wide ranging catalog of routes and different things. It's going to be the standard stuff, creatively done to get him with a little bit of a Runway, get him on the move with a little bit of space. Because once you do that, he is a terror to bring down. Now you. You referenced it. Tread and tread and ball security are two things that I throw in as like an additive at the end that I'm always checking on with all these guys. 2004, he had four fumbles on 398 touches. That's a 1.0%. I like my backs at like 0.5, 0.0.5 or. Or better in terms of percentage now that every, every fumble has a story, all that stuff. But you Knew Historically speaking, 1% or higher has always been concerning and tends to be something that, that, you know, transitions to the next level. But the much bigger concern, I mean that's like it's not a nitpick. It's something like it's there. It's part of the evaluation. The much bigger concern is 831 offensive touches in three seasons. Can he at three.

[B]

He had 375 this year.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know who had the. The last back to have that many carries in a, in a season, I'll give you it was 395 and it was 10 years ago. Want to get any guesses?

[A]

Wisconsin back?

[B]

Nope. Derrick Henry, who weighs 247 pounds.

[A]

Yeah. G's two. We. We should have started with that. Five. 584. Five. Eight and a half. 211 pounds.

[B]

211 pounds. So yeah, I mean. Derrick Henry, 247 pounds. The back hasn't had that many carries 10 years. I'm worried about it now. All that said, we're just. This is part of the conversation. Listen, we're not saying that we don't like genty. This is just. We are. This is the entire story of this.

[A]

He's absolutely special.

[B]

Still taking him early, man. Still would take him early. Just not living. We don't live. We're never going to do that. We're never going to be like someone's perfect or whatever. This is the entire picture of the player.

[A]

Show me the path to how he succeeds. Tell me if he fails. How's he going to fail? Right?

[B]

Right.

[A]

We talk about that all the time. General managers want to know those two things. That's like the jumping off point.

[C]

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[B]

He's so much fun to watch.

[A]

All right, let's, let's keep it moving. So that's Genti. Clearly number one top back in this class. Omarion Hampton. I'll give you a couple of my notes and I want you to take it from here. I, I adore him.

[B]

Yeah, he's my guy. He stole him.

[A]

I did. I did. I got a 92 graded 511 and a half. 5113 quarters. 221 pounds. Ran a 4, 4 6, 40 yard dash. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Also 96 percentile in explosion score in jumping drills. 38 inch vertical 1010 broad jump. Okay. He's a downhill runner. Unique blend size, power, agility, contact balance, his forward lean. Listen to me here. His forward lean like natural forward lean as a runner combined with his acceleration power and ability to run behind his pads is unique. A one yard gain is for a three yard loss is is back to the line of scrimmage. A four yard gain that's been blocked up. It's probably like 12 to 15. I think he's so impressively light on his feet for that size. 221lbs 511 3/4. You know you don't normally don't get. And he cut 67 passes the last two seasons. 96 percentile in miss tackles force as a receiver. He's not just like an out. Yes.

[B]

Yeah. He some guys are like good.

[A]

They'll make the first guy miss. He's a threat after the catch. Plus we talked about ball security tread 61 offensive touches last two seasons. 695. Not ideal but still 140, you know, 130 plus fewer than than than Jinty.

[B]

And he's 220 pounds.

[A]

And he's 221 pounds and ball security's improved. He had five fumbles the first two seasons. Just one on 320 touches last season. So I. How about this for a comp or shades of Joe Mixon?

[B]

I've been saying. Have you not been listening to me when we've been doing this?

[A]

I rarely listen to you when you talk in this show.

[B]

I've been saying, joe, mix it for months.

[A]

Have you. He's.

[B]

I'm pretty sure he said Joe.

[A]

I like, I was, like, proud to tell you that. I felt really good about it. Oh, God.

[B]

He didn't put up the same numbers as mixing in the passing game. And I was like, oh, maybe he's not. Maybe he's not as much of a weapon as mixing was at Oklahoma in the passing game. He absolutely is. He. When you see him after the catch, he absolutely is. Their testing numbers are very similar. I love that cop. And the reason I really love it is because I came up with it first. Also, don't. Also, don't make fun of me. Like, I can't believe this. I'm gonna say this something I noticed about on tape, and I was really having a hard time describing it. All right. You ever play Red Rover when you were a kid? It was Red Rover. Red Rover sent one over, and you had your arms linked like this, and people ran through it. He will go through the line of scrimmage. You know how defensive linemen will, like, one gap and try to reach out. He runs right through those. He's behind his pads. He's so explosive.

[A]

He just.

[B]

I mean, you cannot arm tackle him. You just can't do it. You got to square him up. You got to go low. Even then sometimes, man, I love backs. When you see them running and they. Their guys get into their quads, and it's not good enough, man. You got to go lower than the quad to get him on the ground. Guys will just bounce off his quads. It's crazy how. How powerful he is. And then you throw that burst in there. It's. Yeah, he's. It's easy to get excited about his tape.

[A]

I don't know if we built a graphic or not, but I do think it's interesting. There. There are. And I'm not saying they're both going in the top 12. Okay. But I've got grades equivalent, and I think I have them ranked in the top 12 running backs.

[B]

Oh, I do. I definitely do. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Running backs in the last decade who have been drafted in the top 12. You ready? Bijan Robinson in 2023. Pick eight overall to the Falcons from Texas 2023 as well. Jameer Gibbs just a couple years back from. To the Lions from Alabama and Georgia Tech. Previously, saquon Barkley in 2018. Giants from Penn State, number two overall pick that year, 2017. We talked about that historic draft. Leonard Fournette and Christian McCaffrey at picks four and eight, respectively. Fournette from LSU, McCaffrey from Stanford. Both know they went to the Jaguars and the Panthers, respectively. And then the next guy, the sixth on the list. Six guys in the last decade have been drafted in the top 12. Only six?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Zeke Elliott from the Cowboys to the Cowboys from Ohio State, number four overall in 2016. I'm not sitting here asking you to rank them like we would. Where do the quarterbacks go in last year's draft? But I. I think they're better than some of those guys. If I'm going back and remembering them as prospects, I. I like them more. I like them both more, I'll be honest. And I did Jameer Gibbs, and I love Jameer Gibbs. But I also envision. I say I see Travion Henderson as the. As the Gibbs of this class. I don't think either is as talented as Saquon coming out. I think there's.

[B]

I think Saquon is 1A.

[A]

I think there's one argument. I would argue Jinty slightly more than Bijan, maybe Bijan slightly more than Henderson, but they're in the same neighborhood McCaffrey didn't care for. Remember, he had that tough last year, the durability stuff. There was a reason. But he fell to eight. That was it. Leonard Fournette. I. I loved Leonard Fournette, but I saw how it could fail. I really did. He needed a Runway. He was. You know, he's a little tighter.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And I. I like Zeke a lot, but I think these guys might be better than Zeke.

[B]

All right. They're not. They're not better than Barkley or McCaffrey. Sorry, I can't go there. They might be in the conversation with Caffrey, but I really don't think they are. I think Barkley.

[A]

I don't either, but, yeah, I think they're different.

[B]

But I think you start there, and I think Bijan's in the mix.

[A]

I think the Jaguars overdrafted for Cornet, but anyway, yeah.

[B]

And I think that. I think that Bijan's in the mix with Genti and Hampton, but everyone else is behind. So, I mean, at worst, they're fourth on that list. Four and five on that list.

[A]

All right, let's turn the page to two guys that it's like, you know, you hear sometimes spouses, like, fall more in love. You know, like, there's a point in there. Maybe the kids left the house or, or, you know, know, you saw your beautiful wife have a child or what, whatever it would be. Well, my fall more in love moment was when I went back to the tape and, and I would say 10% of it was knowing I had like the, the exact numbers from the combine to back up and to look at it through a little bit different lens. But I'd be lying if I told you that was like a big part of it. It, it wasn't. It kind of confirmed like, oh, doesn't make sense now. I fell more in love with Travion Henderson. And you can love both. That's the other thing.

[B]

Yeah, it's okay. It's okay.

[A]

You can love both. I'm not, I'm not talking about, like, you know, this isn't polygamy, but you can love both. And I do. Take me through what you got on Trayvon, because I know you, I know.

[B]

Listen, I didn't. Look, I, I, I will freely admit I did not love Trayvon Henderson coming off 2023. I thought he was an explosive runner, and that was, that was his thing. I thought he was kind of a one trick pony, and he has done nothing but shut me up over the last 12 months. He is, he's every bit of that explosive runner. I think his vision and patience improved this year. I think his toughness got better. I mean, he, like, in my notes, he runs angry. He's not a big back, but he runs mad. He, one of my favorite things about him, just to get into this a little bit, I love his technique in pass, bro. The way he squares up, the way he steps up, the way he identifies assignments. When you, when running backs are asked to chip defensive linemen, you'll see this. Like, basically what they're trying to do is when you chip, you kind of lower your shoulder into an edge or a defensive tackle and try to get the, get them to play onto the offensive tackle. You know, you just kind of bump them. Trayvon Henderson chips with bad intentions, and it kind of tells you about what his mentality is. Yes, he had an inside release against Michigan and Mesa. Graham's hooked up with one of the Ohio State interior offensive linemen and travel. Henderson comes through and knocks Mason Graham on his ass. And you can see Graham get up and look like, who the hell was that? And he does it in other games. It wasn't the only time he did it. And you're like, oh, what's the big deal with that? Whatever. You know, he's already, this guy's already engaged with an offensive line. I get it. It speaks to his mentality as a football player. It speaks to who he is as a football player. He plays with an edge. I thought he had a great year. He had a great, he tested well. You talk about a guy that can make plays in space, he might be the best receiver, I think, in this class. I really believe that. I think he's a little bit better at tracking balls downfield than a lot of other guys in this class.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

I think he's, he's really good after the catch. Maybe, you know, there might be some that are better than him, but when you put the whole package together about how this guy pass blocks, how he, how he gets open, how he tracks the ball, I mean, he's a three down player in my opinion.

[A]

He reminds me a little bit of Zeke where it's like, I almost think he's a better run blocker than pass protector at this point. But, but the, but the whole thing is it's a mentality, it's a nastiness, it's a toughness, it's a. I'm going to impose my will. I'm. And I've watched. I'm telling you, this is one of the best running back classes in the history of the NFL draft. There's a lot of these running backs who are phenomenal runners and receivers and difference makers and yards gainers that aren't even blocked. There's a lot of running backs in this class that suck in pass pro. I was shocked going through the cutups. Bad, good plays big, big and small.

[B]

By the way, shout out to pff for those cutouts. It's made the biggest difference in this area. I watch every pass blocking rep for these running backs. You can rip right through them. Yeah. Whereas before, when you're watching three or four games, a guy can kind of hide.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, he got seven, eight reps or 10 reps in these four games. And he did okay. And you think he's all right. And I actually thought earlier in the process that some of these guys were a little better than they were. And then you start watching the, all of the clips and you're like, oh, man, there's. We got some work to do here.

[A]

I'll say this. And it was. I've, I've held this. I don't Know, I don't know if you were in the room with us that time, but Kevin Whitele, you worked with us for a long time as his older brother, Andy White, always with the. The Ravens and the Eagles, and now with the Steeler. I believe he's. He's assistant general manager and director of. Of scouting for the. The Steelers, I think is his exact title. Great guy. Great. Not. Not great. Like, beyond great at what he does.

[B]

Like, truly Villanova center.

[A]

Yeah. I'll never forget.

[B]

He.

[A]

He walked in the room and I. I know it was me and Kevin, and we're sitting there writing down notes. I think one of us is typing the other one's right now. And it's like we're on play like 10 or 12 on a guy. We're trying to, like, get through a bunch of players. I think we're the combiner. And he's like, put down the. Put down the pen. Put the computer. Close the computer, Kevin.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Watch a. Watch a game first. And it always stuck with me. And so I always. I try to watch like 20, 30 plays before I start to jot down. Because you think he's got. And you're like, I better write that down now. It's like if you sit back and you actually watch, and this is good advice to anyone who's young, trying to get into scouting or evaluate. Sit back and let, like, have some music on the background. Sit back and watch. Take it in. You're going to get a feel. And it's almost like watching the like. Like an orchestra or a ballet after, like, you. You see the whole picture. And the thing with Traviana is I was doing that with my pen down, my computer away. His, like, his ability to get to that second gear. He's got that little dance and he can make guys missing the back, but, like, his feet are so damn quick. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And if you don't. If you don't slow him down, and even if you do, he's gonna. But if you don't slow him down, this guy is a menace. Right? And then we talked about the pass protection. Zero fumbles on 171 touches this last year. One fumble on 666 career touches. So he's not going to fumble the ball. He catches the ball beautifully. He's a huge threat when he gets the ball in the passing game. He's going to pass pro for you. I don't need to get him 30 touches a game to get my money out of him. I need to get him 15 smart touches.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I guess a screen pass.

[B]

He's going to house a screen pass at the end of the first half. And change of a game for you.

[A]

Now I got Jameer Gibbs on my hands.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And look what Jameer Gibbs did to that offense.

[B]

I reluctantly give you credit for that, cop. It's a good comp.

[A]

And then we switch over to Quichon Judkins. Different player, but same music on in the background. Okay. Travion Henderson's 510202 with all these explosive numbers, right? And the jumps and the. And the 515210 yard split. Tied for fifth. And of all the running backs in the class. But just like 1/100th of a second off of. Tied for second and 3/100th of a second off of. Bishul Tootin. Who had the fastest. Okay. Who's a track star and it runs in decades or generations in his family. But I'm watching Quinton Judkins at 221 pounds, same as we talked. Almost identical. 5115 Omari. And Hampton was 5116. 221. Hampton was 221. Okay. Hampton's a little faster, top end, I think. What was he? 4 4, 4, 4 6. Yeah. 446. Judge G. 448.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Sub 5. Sub 4 or 5 guys at that size. What are we talking about? But here's the thing I noticed on tape and I had to go back and look because I couldn't remember was it Henderson or Judkins who ran the unbelievably fast 10 yard split. And I'm watching and, and Henderson is like. And I watched Henderson before I watched Judkins like the acceleration, all that. Right. But then I'm watching Judkins at 221. I got to remind myself he's, you know, he's 19, almost 20 pounds bigger than Henderson. And I think his acceleration. What? Go back and watch his tape. Put on some good music. Sit back, put your computer down.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

151 was set. Tied for second in this record setting. Remember this is the fastest running back class in the history of the NFL combine record setting. 448 was the average. He was the second. Tied for the second fastest of all the running backs with that 151 at 221 pounds. Well, who cares, Todd? It's just a. It's a 10 yard split. But the tape is like over and over again. I. I don't know that there's a guy in this class whose play Speed from the second the ball snapped to when he's through the line of scrimmage is faster than him. So it's the power, it's the toughness, it's the vision. But I'm telling you, like Josh Jacobs, that kind of explosiveness to and through the hole reaches top speed in an absolute flash. Equally adept gap and zone blocking schemes. Pass pro. Same stuff I'm writing down. Yeah, for, for Henderson. I'm writing down for Judkins. Like, their fire burns so freaking deep watching them block for each other. And for Will Howard. If you love this game, it almost like brings tears to your eyes. You get goosebumps. That's what it's all about, right? That's what it's about. We're a team, we're trying to win football games. And they're out there. First round draft picks, nil deals for a million, $2 million, all this stuff. But at the end of the day, they're asked to go run block for their quarterback or for each other. And they are. That is the most important down of their game, man. And the guys can catch the ball. Henderson better than Judkins. God, I got so excited. Sorry. Listen, my, my. Mad at me. Gosh, gosh, I apologize. The Lord's name in vain, I'm not allowed to say. And I apologize for that. But like, it, it. I don't know, man.

[B]

There.

[A]

There's just. There's not many guys that can provide that kind of quality. The traits and the running ability and the catching and the block, but like, but have that fire burning that deep. And when you get an opportunity to get one of those guys, don't pass it up. If, if it makes any sort of sense for your organization.

[B]

It's important for two reasons. One, when you put a guy in a competitive situation, how is he going to react? Because I'm telling you right now, when you get in a. An NFL position room, you're never going to be in a more competitive situation. Those guys are fighting for their livelihoods every single day. Some guys get put in those rooms and they, and they have all the talent in the world, but they don't shine because they don't know how to deal with that competitiveness. And other guys get in there and it brings out the best of them. And Trayvon Henderson was like, you want to sign Quinchon junkins? You want to bring him here to Ohio State? Go ahead, bring him in here. And.

[A]

And Judkin.

[B]

Judkins was like.

[A]

Like, Judkins was like, yeah, that, that money's good. I can get good money at Ole Miss and I got Jackson Dart and I got. I get Kiffin. We just brought in a bunch, but I want to go compete with him.

[B]

But in a way that we're going to bring out the best in each other. Not in a way that I'm going to show you. It's in a way that's going to bring about the best of them. And the second thing is obvious when you get into a big moment in a game, when you get into a hard moment in your season, which I think Ohio State showed is a great example of Ohio State this year, both in terms of the loss to Michigan and how they responded. And then Henderson's, you know, screen pass, I think is a great example. Those guys step up at critical moments in your season. They step out in critical moments in your game. It's an important part of the evaluation and it's also a difficult one to assess. So I think that stuff matters. If people are like, oh, why like is great. Everyone's competes, everyone's. It's not the same. It's not the same for every prospect.

[A]

And if you're looking just from a practical standpoint and you need a guy who's going to be your featured back. 5.3 yards per carry versus loaded eight man boxes. Third in the class. Third in the entire class for Quinton Judkins and not much for a big physical back. Yeah, he's providing all those, but you need a big physical back who's going to pick up those yards for you? Keep the chains moving. Only 14% of his runs were stuffed, line of scrimmage or behind. That's fifth in the. In the entire class. So you're getting what you expect out of a 221 back, but you're also getting a lot more. All right, I don't care that we took the time up on the Ohio State guys because I think we both are deeply passionate about what we saw. I'm going to start with this. The next two guys on our list, Caleb Johnson, Cameron Scatter, I'm going to give you a blanket statement, and it's one I, it pains me to say, and you take it where you want to go with these guys, I'll let you lead the charge.

[B]

I can't wait for this. This seems loaded. Here we go.

[A]

I Caleb Johnson's been my guy. I've been pounding the table. I loved his tape. I love a lot of things about him. When you go back and stack them and you start. And I purposely go Through. I start with Ginty. I start with Hampton. I want to see. Now I'm watching the net Judkins, and I'm watching Henderson. Reverse order. Then I'm watching Caleb Johnson. And it's almost like, huh, There's a difference. It's like being in the house where it's like a beautiful day and the breeze coming in feels so good. Right. And it's lovely and everything's good. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, it's starting to get a little cold in there. I'm going to put the windows down. I. I'm cooling just a little bit. Still lovely to have the windows open. But I'm cooling just a little bit on Caleb Johnson. And I'll get into some more detail. I think that. I think that dude was blocked up pretty good. And I'm warming on Cam Scatterbo.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Grinder. Like I was. I just. I watched his games, I watched his tape. But now when I'm watching, I'm stacking these guys. I'm like, huh, He's a little different. He's. I don't know. Where are you in those two guys?

[B]

Trust your initial instinct with Johnson. I'm with that. I didn't. I mean, I thought he was going to run better at the combine. I think it was a four, five, seven, something like that.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Not 61.

[A]

61 2. Let's play it out. Caleb Johnson, 61. Excuse me. 224 pounds. Ran a 457, which seems terrible when you saw the four threes and a bunch of four fours in the class that ran four. Get out of your average. I know. I'm just saying. I'm just.

[B]

I'm not just you. Whoever's listening, get. Get Those. Those. The 4, 5 numbers for running back. I am a. Okay with.

[A]

He had 508 carries for 2,800 yards, essentially six in Iowa history. Just 29 catches in three seasons. That's the backdrop on Caleb Johnson also. We Talked about that 151152 split for Judkins and Henderson, respectively. His was 162, which tied another one of my favorite backs on tape. Jordan James from Oregon for the worst among running backs at the combo. And then scatter.

[B]

Boo.

[A]

I'll just rip it out now. Five nine and a half. So, so shorter. But I don't mind shorter backs. 219, which makes 219 on that frame is a lot bigger than 224 on six. 1. Did not run at the combine. Did good job on the vertical on the jumps showed the explosive 39 and a half inch vertical tied for second. Great job. I should say in 10, three, broad jump, tied for second with the vertical. So the lower body explosiveness, as you would imagine, is there. So go ahead.

[B]

I love them both. I love them both. I mean, trust you. For me, it's. Go back and trust the tape with Johnson. If you're a zone team, you. I. I think you have to have some interest in him. Maybe he slips a little bit. I. I get it. But on day two, you can get a 221 back who just knows how to read his blocks, knows when to get. North, south is very smooth to me. I'm not worried about that time. I'm gonna. We're going to talk about this more, I think a little bit at the end here. I'm not worried about that time. I cannot stress that enough. He runs well.

[A]

That's.

[B]

I think he's a great zone runner. I just think he is. Maybe he's blocked up. Well, I get that. And I'm not saying he's blocked up.

[A]

Really well, bud, what do you.

[B]

Listen. So, all right, let's get into all of that then. You know, some of these guys, the level of competition is not the same as the other level of competition that other guys faced. You know, like, we can get into all of these little things. He made the most of what he got. He is smooth, he's instinctive, he is big, he is powerful. I think he runs better on tape than he ran on the track. Again, we're. I had Caleb Johnson as my number three back, and now he's. He's definitely behind. He's probably six. So it's not that I haven't moved him down. I haven't moved him down. It's. I've definitely moved him down a little bit. So I. I acknowledge all of that.

[A]

But to say, like, my point is this.

[B]

How far are you going with him?

[A]

No, no, I still have him as number five running back. Okay. Yeah, I still got him ahead of.

[B]

Scatterboat, and I'm good.

[A]

But. But, like. But it went from this. If you're watching on YouTube, like, the Gap was here and now it's like they're, like, touching each other.

[B]

Yeah, I agree with that. That's fine by me. I don't know.

[A]

I came away, like. I don't know. I mean, I do know. I do know. You want me to tell you? Mm. He doesn't have great stop start. No. And it's slowed. If you. If you can, if you can, slow him down on that Runway. And yeah, he's patient. He waits. He does all. His vision is outstanding. Like, I don't want people to think I don't like him. Like, his patience. He's under control. He tempos his runs beautifully. You know, like it was a Le'Veon Bell. Like, you know that patient. He's not that.

[B]

But like, no, he's not.

[A]

Just, just. He's not. I'm not trying to say he is, but like the zone guys, zone blocking guys. And he, he was successful getting gap, too, but, but when you get him stopped, he's not going to start back up. Okay. He needs a little bit of a Runway. It needs to be like a coast to go. Okay. He's incredibly efficient, but I don't, but he doesn't generate as many on his own. That's the thing. Scatterboo generates more on his own, and it's because one was blocked. Had the blocking blocked up better. Jinty more on his own. Hampton more on his own.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The two Ohio State guys create more yards on their own. Then I get to pass protection really uneven. Concerning in Pass Pro, it's £224. He's not fast. He's not explosive. He's not like this huge danger. Yeah, you get some clips of him, chunk runs, but they're blocked up well. And so his pass pro is not great. I trust him as a receiving outlet. I think he's a confident pass catcher. Transitions upfield relatively. Like, he's kind of smooth, but kind of limited experience and limited in terms of his upside because he doesn't have that explosive ability like Genti does. Like Hampton does. Like certainly Henderson does. I don't know.

[B]

So I, I, I don't, I get, I get, I get what we're doing here. We're comparing the class and trying to rank where these guys are. They. He's a different back. I just think he's a day two home run all the time. I get all the things that you're saying, and I get, and I don't disagree with any of them. I just think when you look at his total package, his frame, his size, his ability to read his, his instincts. I think he's play again, plays faster than he ran. I, I just think he's a home run as a day two guy. He's in this, he's in these tears. If you want to put Scaboo ahead of him, but keep him in the same tier. Although I do think RJ Harvey is something we'll talk about too. But you want to keep him in the same tier and move Scaboo ahead of that. I'm fine. I love Scaboo. Tucker loves Scoo. We all love Scaboo. I mean, he's just. He's a warrior. He is rugged. He's awesome. He's. I mean, just refuses to get tackled at times. Very good in the passing game. The numbers speak for themselves in the numbers that he put up this year. All that's true. Don't have a 40 time on him. And by the way, he's not expected to run at the big, big 12 pro day, so not super concerned. But I would like.

[A]

I'm not.

[B]

I'd like to see a time. I'd love to see a time with Scatterboo, like.

[A]

All right. If you're looking for some concerns. Yeah. The tread in the tires is really. Is. Is concerning.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Some guys are. It's not a thing. No problem.

[B]

Is he a great stop start guy, too? I don't think he is.

[A]

I don't mind him as much.

[B]

I don't know, man.

[A]

He doesn't need a Runway. He heats up quickly. I. I wrote. I'm reading my notes. Downhill power back. Doesn't need a Runway. That was my first sentence. Doesn't need a Runway. Heats up quickly. Gets a lot of momentum behind his pads in a short period of time. At his best between the tackles. But is showing effective on the outside. Carries too. Lighter on his feet than I ever give him credit for. Darts through creases. Great job weaving his way in and out of traffic while. And I put in all caps. Well, always advancing the run. Power base is outstanding. Rarely goes down on initial contact. And I mean rarely. Rarely bears down second and third level defenders. Relentless. Absolute dog competitor with a ball in his hands as a receiver. Only two drops. 52 catchable targets and 2024. Tough to bring down in the open field. Heats it up quickly. Pass, bro. He's got to improve. Just kind of gets in the way and launches right now. But my man was like the quarterback, the running back, the full. The h. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, he just, you know, like, with more emphasis on that, I think he can improve. He's big, he's powerful. Needs technique work. Raw. But he just, like right now, he just kind of gets in the way and launches.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hoping for the best. I went with Javante Williams. Also more gifted. Zach Moss. Damien Pierce types with Scatterboo. I think he's actually better than all those guys.

[B]

Yeah. I really like Javante. Williams. So I think that's, I mean, I like both of those guys. Again, I'm not, you're not going to find, I'm not gonna have a lot of negative things to say about either one of those backs. And if you decide to move Scatterboo ahead of, of Johnson, I'm fine with that. I don't, there's, I get what you're saying. That's it. I do. I just don't think my concern is where I'm coming from and maybe this is the wrong place, is I see that a little bit of a higher time and that, that slower 10 yard split and I think people might overreact and be like, he needs to go. And I'm not saying you're doing that. I just get defensive when I see those kind of things and I'm like, come on, man. Like, it's not that bad of a time. The tape speaks for itself.

[A]

It wasn't, it wasn't the speed stuff because I went in kind of looking, but it was, it was he, I don't know. He's slow, he's slow to get started. If you, if you slow him down. I don't know.

[B]

I'm trying to find it now. You're not alone. One of our, one of our listeners, I can't find the message right now, and I apologize. One of our listeners reached out and I'm trying to find it. I can't find it. But he said the same thing about Johnson. He's like, look, man, I wonder when you watch him if it's not the blocking more than it is, more than it is the player. And so it's interesting that other people have seen it.

[A]

And when I'm watching, when I'm watching in the fall and I'm watching Iowa guys and I'm watching against certain defense, I'm, I'm looking at the traits, you know, and now, now as I'm watching them, literally spent four or five days of my life, like wake up in the morning watching. You know, we got done with the podcast on Wednesday, right to the tape. Wednesday night, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, literally my life outside of three hours, trying to unpack Shador Sanders, the Cleveland Browns, and like eating and sleeping was on these running backs. And so when I, when I'm like that hyper focused, I'm watching all these guys, I'm like, I don't think Caleb Johnson may be as good as I thought he was. And I think Scatter Boo is better than I even thought he was.

[B]

I, I, that's Fair.

[A]

Both still like, I. I've got second round grades.

[B]

You know, they're gonna be same page, man.

[A]

I just wanted to. I wanted to express that. All right, so now, Tucker, I apologize to the listener.

[B]

I should. I've wish I had the name, but someone definitely reached out and said something about it already, which I thought was cool.

[A]

All right, we're through the top six men.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Was there something. Didn't you want to do something?

[B]

I got a little exercise for you that me and my guy Tucker put together. A little player A, player B comp, a little trivia. Let's see how you do, McShay. All right.

[A]

Okay. Yep. Player A. Oh, you're building graphics now. This is cute. I like this.

[B]

Player A at his combine was 5, 10, 5, weighed 216 pounds and he ran. Okay, 462. He rushed for 4, 945 yards and 44 touchdowns in college. He averaged 5.6 yards per carry as a senior. And he caught 73 passes in college. Player B 511 1, 213 pounds. Ran a 4, 5, 8 at his combine, rushed for 4,343 yards and 49 touchdowns. Averaged 5.8 yards per carry as a senior and caught 77 passes in college.

[A]

But you got. I know who B is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I knew you were. To know who B was right away.

[A]

Because it was one of a couple guys I would say it could have been. It could have been Jordan James. I don't know the exact 40, but I, I'm. I'm very. I feel. Because Jordan James is 205. I remember that from going through the. And Devin Neal is 213. And those numbers, the catches, the average and the. Yeah, that. That's Devin Neal. All right. The comp. My comp for Devin Neal was Tank Bigsby. I don't think that's not.

[B]

Oh, I'll give you a hint. He led the NFL in rushing as a rookie.

[A]

As a rookie. Four, six, two.

[B]

Tough one, right?

[A]

Yeah, go ahead, tell me. I'm not gonna get it played at Toledo. Kareem Hunt.

[B]

Kareem Hunt, man, I like that.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

Look at that. This is I. Because you. You tweeted. This is what's funny too, because one of our listeners came at me because you. You were on X and you were like, oh, he's one of my favorite day three guys. And I said, you, you meant to say day two.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And this guy came at me, he's like, bro. He ran like a 4, 7, which immediately immediately, like got under my skin, you know, like it's one of those things that's gonna get under my skin. Didn't run a 4, 7. He ran a 4, 5, 8, ran faster than Kareem Hunt. I think they're very comparable, man. Very productive college.

[A]

I don't mind that at all.

[B]

Very. Let's get into it.

[A]

Let's. Let's get into it. Let's get. Let's get.

[B]

I just want to say this too, just to keep this in mind. Like, this is about the size, speed stuff. Because all I heard about wide receivers the other day was you people. You get so caught up in this height, weight and speed. You people. Okay, let me give you something else. Kyron. Kyron Williams was a fifth round pick in 2022.

[A]

Horrible. It was one of my favorite backs in that entire class.

[B]

194 pounds. He ran a 4, 6, 5. You loved him, right?

[A]

Loved him. Didn't care about the number. Had a, had a late second, early third on him. Didn't care. And I kept saying to you guys, I don't care. He could have run a 48. I just love third in rushing two.

[B]

Years ago, seventh in rushing last year. He has 26 rushing touchdowns. I think 31 touchdowns total.

[A]

Perfect.

[B]

In his last 28 games. Stop telling me about the height, weight, speed stuff. I love talking about it. When it's like backs up, what we see on tape, it's great. But trust the tape.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So just, just there's one of those. I think I see Devin Neal and you have 16. I'm losing my mind.

[A]

Okay, that's fine. But I also, I, I also have Jordan James who I'm about to get to in a minute, who I fell back in love with them.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Fell back like, don't care. Take. You take your stuff and shove it. Take your 40s and shove it. Fell back in love with them. So let's, let's do this quickly because we got, we got to keep pace. We're already, I don't know, an hour and 10 minutes and almost an hour and 20. So let's try to do this in about 15, 20 minutes if we can.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Because who cares? Let's go to the, the shorter list. The two guys that I think are early down power backs. Okay. Tucker just threw that up for us. But she'll. Tutin, who was one of the talks of Indianapolis at the combine, as I mentioned, track star, all that five, nine and a quarter, 206 pounds. Ran a four, three, two. My goodness. And all of his other Numbers were sensational. And Damien Martinez, these are guys to me that are in the conversation in the first four rounds. Okay. And Tutin's probably going to go a little bit earlier than maybe my tape evaluation just because those numbers are. Are hard to compete with. But I'll start with Martinez and you, you tell me Tootin. Pick and slide runner for Damian Martinez, right. 511 and a half 217 pounds. Ran a 451 powerful sudden. The way he marries his eyes and patience to his footwork in tight spaces stands out. I put in all caps. What I like most about him is senses the crease, shows the lateral agility and the body control and then accelerates right, right. Doesn't have a great second gear. I wrote that even before the combine.451 is not that bad a time man. But what I did write in all caps was he like hits it hard and has pop in his pads. Just like there's something about his. It's like you know, he's just different in terms of his pop and the stats corroborate the the case if you will. 4.4 yards after contact second behind Jinty in this class. Only 8 to 8.2% of his runs were stuffed best in class. Judkins was really good. His was like 14.7. This guy's only 8.2 that often. I mean like he's just. He's not going to lose yards for you. 6.7 yards per carry in runs between the tackle second 37%. 37% of his runs gained a first down third among all the spec in terms of best pure runners in this class. He's in the top 10 conversation pass pro. He's okay, he's okay. He's big, he's powerful, he's tough. Definitely a plus guy in pass pro but he's going to, he's going to have to grow and improve with his recognition. Some of his technique stuff, adequate outlet swings, angles, check downs, all that stuff. Yeah, I think it's an early down back. The pop he has put Rico Dowdle is like, like I don't know this but not perfect. There's like some suddenness and power to his game that I just really like.

[B]

I've always liked Martinez. I mean he just, he just runs hard. This is just. This is what we're. I mean look, it's the depth of the class. I mean these. You got him as a early day three guy. I think a lot of other years he's probably going earlier than that but he might get Pushed down because of all this and then you get into tooting a little bit. Yeah, I mean it's. I thought it was interesting that you put him as an early down power back. We're Talking about a 5, 9, 206, 6 pound back who ran a 4, 3, 2. I don't think people on paper will see that.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

I get it. When you watch the tape, I get that you like he's a downhill guy, explosive power, built low to the ground, powerful dude. So I get why you have him there. Some of the stuff's tricky for me because I think how a guy is used and how a guy develops ends up a lot on where he is. I do like that you make the point of putting him here because of his running style now and in the way he is on tape now and he's not a bigger. Like you look at Martinez and you see a guy who's a power back the way. I mean we saw him in Mobile and the way he carries his weight and. And he just looks like a big powerful runner. I like that you have Tootin here, even though he doesn't look like that when you watch him on tape. That's his identity now.

[A]

All right, let's flip over to the. What do you want to call them? Scatbacks, Versatile, change of pace, all those things. Guys that are not going to be your every down running back probably, but some of them will wind up being. So we're not. I'm not putting any. I'm not, you know, putting baby in the corner or putting anyone in a box that they, that they can't play their way out of. But these are guys that bring versatility that we're not talking about in the top six who you're draft. If you're spending a first or second round pick on a running back, I would say, I would say absolutely that Jameer Gibbs is the exception because it was so important to have that element and speed and explosiveness at that position in that offense. And they certainly do not regret that pick at all. And they get the last laugh and I loved it at the time. But the vast majority, when you're spending first or second round capital on a running back, you want him to be a major featured part of your offense. And even though Gibbs is in a rotation, he is the major featured part of that offense at the running back position. These guys, maybe they will be. But when you can get them in the third, fourth round range, they don't have to be. You're not relying on it. I'm going to give you four guys that I absolutely love at the top and I struggle with it. Let's put it this way. RJ Harvey, Central Florida, Dylan Sampson, Tennessee Kansas State, DJ Giddins and Jordan James, Oregon. That's my bucket, okay? That's my top tier. Of these guys who aren't in that top six to be your. That's my bucket and I love them.

[B]

I love that. I agree with you, except for Neil, but I remain my point there. I love those four, okay? Love those four.

[A]

RJ Harvey is electric, absolutely electric. Pick, slide, patience, visions hit, hits it hard. Team captain went through. Do you know this? This son of a gun, he was a third string quarterback at Virginia back in 2019. I didn't know this until I looked it up. Transferred to UCF in 2020.

[B]

I knew he registered there. I didn't know he was playing quarterback.

[A]

Quarterback. Played back up sparingly in 2020. Set to be like the guy in 2020 21. Finally after like transferring position changes, all this. 2021, it's his year. ACL tear, misses the season, does it in camp. Comes back in 2022, gets things rolling. 118 carries, 2023, 2024. Absolute dog. Carried that program. Run first offense. It ran through RJ Harvey, team captain. Guys rave about him. The leadership, well respected. Caught 39 passes average. Listen, normally when you look up these averages, it's like 9 to 10, right? Average 13 yards per catch.

[B]

If you see 12 plus man, you've got my attention.

[A]

Yes. Almost 3,000 yards rushing, 6.5 yards, 38 scores. Tightly packed frame, excellent speed. Ran a 44 flat at the combine. But I love the tape, the explosiveness, top seven results, vertical, broad jump, all that stuff. The tape is so, so good.

[B]

Listen, imagine being point, I mean that's it. Point of view. Like you're. You put on the, the VR goggles and you're a linebacker and you're trying to defend a 58 running back who does a great job. He's patient, he hugs his blocks and then he is like shot out of a cannon when he. And he's got the. By the way, he's got the vertical, the violent cuts he makes when he bounces, runs outside. Those late cuts that he makes where he steps towards the line of scrimmage and everyone starts flowing up and the next thing you know he's whoop out the back door or he's around the corner and he's gone. He is so hard to locate. The way he reads blocks and hugs those blocks at 5 foot 8. And then you add that burst of. All of a sudden, he's got a seam and you. And you're like, you're. As a linebacker or even a safety, you're trying to fill, and you're like, okay, I'm here. And he's gone. And, yeah, he's out the door. He's gone. You there.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's just so difficult to defend. I think he's. He's really close to being in that. That Scatterboo, that Caleb Johnson tier. And. And he's been your guy forever, man. And. And the more I watch him, the more I'm like, wow. Like, he's just. He's. He's unique. And. Oh, he's played at ucf, who they play well. Watch him against Florida. And I know he didn't have big numbers in that game. Watch how he ran. Watch the. The. How he got to space. He's in another. Another quick feat guy. Another sifting through traffic, changing directions quickly, making guys missing the hole, making it very hard to get a clean hit on him in space. I've. He's. You know, you talk about guys, you went back and you watch again, you fall in love. Like, he is right near the top of the list for me.

[A]

So we have a similar experience. It's like this torrid affair, right? Yeah.

[B]

First of all, it's so fun to watch this entire class. Like, it's like you. There's nights where you're like, oh, my God, I'm watching the safety. And I'm like, you know, like, I get that he could play special teams and maybe have carve out a role in a couple years. And you're like. And then you're watching these backs, and you're like, I. You know, I wouldn't. I could throw out another tape or I, you know, I could keep going here. Like, this is pretty amazing what these kids are doing.

[A]

Yeah. This time, like. Like chefs, like, nine course meals.

[B]

And it's like, right, what's next?

[A]

All right, I'm done. I'm done. Like, that was. I can't get better and then the next one. So, like, my experience is I just got done with those six guys, and, yeah, Caleb Johnson, I'm not quite as sure as I once was, but I still love him. And Scatterboat. God, I love him more than I. Than I. Than I thought. Like, all right, so now let's get to this next tier. And I watch RJ Harvey, and I'm like, I'm not so sure that he's not in that, like, right. There's not a lot separating him from those guys. And so I'm like, all right, so RJ Harvey's clearly number seven, but I think he could be like, you know, it wouldn't shock me in three years if we say he's one of the top three or four from this class. So then I get to Dylan Sampson. I'm like, I know who this guy is. I've studied his tape. I watched in the preseason. I watch it during the season. And then I start watching it from this lens with. Now I'm on. I'm on the eighth running back. There's got to be a dip. Right? Right. He's only 5, 8. He's only £200. He ran a 4, 4, 7 at his pro day, by the way. Not at the combine. It just recently ran 4, 4, 7. Good number, but not like, you know.

[B]

I heard it might have been a little bit lower. There's, like, some conflicting reports. But, yeah, when they track him on the field, by the way, according to. According to, like, when they track him on the field, he is flying.

[A]

But I start to watch him again through this lens with, like, all the fresh in my mind, and I'm like, holy smokes, he's downhill. 340 of its carries were downhill versus 25 outside the last two years. Hits it and it's like, again, music on. Sit back. Put the pen down. Put the fold. The laptop. Weaving in and out like moguls, slalom runner. Yeah, at fast pace. That's the thing. All these backs. It's like, it's either like, you got the. The RJ Harvey's and the DJ getting sort of like. And then you got the. Then you get, like, the mogul guys, like, the. But they're going downhill. Everything's advancing.

[B]

I really hope people are watching this.

[A]

On YouTube, like, and it's like, how can this guy be. Now I'm like, questioning, like, maybe he's even better than Harvey. You like, but that's the. The experience. Dipping under contact, spin move here. Legs always churning against SEC teams. £200 against SEC competition. Offensive line's good, but it ain't that good against those defensive fronts. He's having to earn it a little bit more than Caleb Johnson's having to earn it, but he's not as big and he's not as, you know, and he's not. It's like, smoother, but like.

[B]

And.

[A]

And yeah, it gets creases because they spread the field out. So I'm like, trying to Compute all these things and factors in. And I came out of it and I'm like, this son of a. Is going to be the next Bucky Irving.

[B]

That's something. I mean it wouldn't surprise me.

[A]

I loved 5, 8, nothing, 200 and nothing.

[B]

Yeah, Bucky was small. I don't know. I don't know if people realize how small Bucky Irving was. And he didn't run as well, did he? But like, still, I get it. I get it. That undersized back.

[A]

He ran like a 4, 5, 5 or something.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that undersized back. You, you kind of wonder how he's going to make it in the NFL. And then you watch Bucky Irving this year, you're like, damn, damn. He's everything he was in college.

[A]

But then I put in DJ Giddens and he's six foot and he's 212 pounds. And he ran a four, four, three at the combine. He had a 39.8, 39 and a half inch vertical. Second best ten, ten broad, second best four threes. The seventh fastest somehow. Usually that would be the fastest four, four, three. And his tape's different. His tape's different because every carry I saw had a. Had a lead back and now he's. He's reading a lead back and it's downhill. But a quarter of his runs are outside. Equally adept in both schemes. Gap and zone. Okay. Pick and slide. 212 pounds. Right. It's a little bit like Harvey, but it's a bigger. It's a bigger Harvey. So there's like more like spin moves in there and like. And it's not quite as. It's more like. Right. And the suddenness and the quickness and decisive. More explosive than Caleb Johnson. Like I'm starting to now. I'm even in my notes on comparing this and that to the sizes. And then I look and like look at the number 90, 91st percentile. Missed tackles forced. His elite combination of elusiveness and contact balance creates his own yards.

[B]

Pass.

[A]

Pro is inconsistent. Got.

[B]

I got wor. I got worries. I got worries about him being a 3 down player early in his career. And I love.

[A]

He's not perfect as a receiver, but I love his potential. His hands are inconsistent. I'll give you that. Five drops last year.

[B]

I'm not sure it's natural. Man.

[A]

I don't disagree. I saw.

[B]

I think he can get there and he's. And by the way, he is another one of those guys. Is a weapon when he gets it. Like if he, if he Catches it, watch out. Because he can make things happen when he gets into the open field. But that said, I got worries about the pass pro and I got worries about how he catches the ball right now. And other guys, other guys have overcome that and developed into three down players. I'm just not sure.

[A]

Beautiful. The lower body explosiveness is. Running tape is, is gorgeous.

[B]

No question. You know how much I love him.

[A]

So then I put in my other, my other guy, Jordan James. Oregon again, we're kind of back to that Dylan Sampson stuff and that, that RJ Harvey stuff, you know, and, and makes. It makes it a lot worse. He ran the 4, 5, 5, and he had that terribly slow 1.62 like Caleb Johnson, but Caleb Johnson's a big ass back. Jordan James is five, nine and a half and 205. So now I've got all this all in my head, pen down, music's playing, laptop down, watching. It took me all of 20 plays to be like, don't care, get it out of here. Get the noise out. And that's why I tell you, when I tell you like I'm telling you, I'm, I'm. And I love Caleb Johnson, but I'm just trying to give you perspective on all this. It's because of the tape. Yes. I had in my head and some of the things match up with the, the times and the things I see on tape. But I'm not making these decisions. I'm going back to the tape so that I can.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And that can be. Yeah, I know you know, but I'm trying to explain the viewer so that, that can be the last portion. I can't ever let that trip to Indianapolis and all those numbers and all the different. Any asshole with a computer and an IT guy or a brain can plug in numbers and come up with formulas, right? It's got to be the tape. That's got to be the foundation. So I go back to Jordan James and I see it. I see why I fell in love with him. He's as efficient a runner as there is in this class. Vision makes the right decisions, but he does in a flash. Feet, ultra quick, center of gravity, stringing, multiple cuts, jump cuts, stop starts. It's all a thing of beauty. And I'm like, yeah, I don't care. Take your 455.

[B]

And she's absolutely fearless. He is a downhill, you know, pass pro.

[A]

I gave him a two. I gave him a two in pass pro. He's five, nine and a half, 205 pounds. A two mean one is excellent. Two is good, three is average. I'm giving a five, nine and a half, two hundred and five pounder a two. Underrated. I wrote, gets in position, knows how to get in position, gives effort, puts faces in face in the fan, surprisingly actually holds his ground better than some of these bigger backs that I was talking about.

[B]

Anderson's the same way. That's the thing. Same thing about Trayvon Henderson, man. Is technique, is technique, toughness. Those will go a long way in pass row, man, a smaller target.

[A]

And quite honestly, this is the thing that, that RJ Harvey's here. Dylan Sampson's right behind him. DJ Giddens is some of the traits, the great running tape. But there are concerns in the passing game. Jordan James, I do like the pass pro, absolutely adore him as a runner. It's just gonna work. It's just gonna work. He's another guy, knows his former teammate and I already gave you a comp. But I don't see a huge. I. We talk about shades of instead of NFL comps shades of. These three guys all are kind of in my mind shades of. And their grades are very similar. Bucky Irving, Dylan Sampson, Jordan James and actually the, the numbers, the, the, the size, speed, all that stuff lines up a little bit more with Bucky Irving, Dylan Sampson. If you're going off the pro day was a little, is a little bit faster. But my point is when you're looking for what's going to work at the next level, these guys have those traits. Now receiver, five drops. I see that on the pff. Ultimately, yeah. But I also saw four drops and, and the really terrible percentage. First teammate, Terence Ferguson. I did something on Twitter and saw.

[B]

That and agreed that's, that's, that's those.

[A]

Four, those four drops give him a 44th percentile. And you're like, oh, that's my reliable tight end who, yeah, ran a 463. But he's not like this explosive, like game changing type of athlete. He better be able to catch the football. And every time I saw him, he caught the football. At the senior roll, he caught the football. So why does he have a 44th percentile and drops? Oh, because the four throws were bang, bang, like Dylan Gabriel firing at him behind him. And one of them was just a focus drop. He's trying to get upfield and make a guy miss. So I'm like, I'm fine with his, his ball skills. Ferguson. So I'm thinking all, maybe it's the same stuff, right? Same quarterback. And then I'm like, no, it's not. I mean a couple of the five, like you could argue, but there are three that are what I would say are concerning things. So what separates. Like, what are the little things that separate these guys? Harvey's up here because he's got a. All of it in the smaller package.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

They're not the 220. Not. He's got all of it. The leadership, the toughness, the pass. Pros good. Okay. But it's. But he catches the ball better than Jordan James, so that's a separator. Giddens got these traits, similar runs at the right size.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sampson's were. But they're like. They're all in that same range. What separates them? That's all I have.

[B]

It's good. It's. It was a tight hour 40. Who of these.

[A]

These other guys who have the. And, and is there anything I. Anything you want to add to those four? But listen, I've got.

[B]

We keep going.

[A]

Brashard Smith, we've got La Quint Allen, Devin Neal. Did you get enough in on him? These are all the guys we're talking third, fourth range. Trevor etn, Jaden Blue, Texas. Give me what give me. We got as much time as you want, men.

[B]

Look, there's. Allen's very interesting to me because of the offense that he played in. I mean, no one threw the ball more than Syracuse. I mean they were throwing it all over the place. So he's got a lot of experience catching the ball, running routes. Maybe he's a little more sophisticated as a receiver. Now you've already mentioned it. Those spread offenses and, and throwing the ball that much is going to create light boxes. It's going to create vertical seams for him. I think he did a good job of taking advantage of it. When he gets into more of a pro style offense, how much of that's going to translate? Is there going to be a little bit of a transition time? But he's an interesting player because of what he can do for you in the passing game. You know, there's been going on all these guys. Jaden Blue, the speed. Very intriguing yarns. A small school kid who, you know, flashed at the Senior bowl, runs well, catches the ball well. He's got a skill set that you're interested in. You know, Etienne, banged up but talented. Not. Doesn't have elite natural ability, but a good runner. I mean there's, there's bad. This is what you're going to start finding in this range. But these guys are contribute. I think there's going to be a lot of guys that you find in this range that are going to contribute. When you talk about Harvey, Sampson, Giddens and James, I think those are top two backs in the league. I think those are guys that are going to be, you know, a top two back. Then after that you're starting to get into these guys who are going to rotate in and and probably play more of a smaller role.

[A]

Yeah, I mean we've gone too long. I don't apologize. This honest to God, this class was worth five days of wrapping up on tape and diving in because it's just that good. It was worth an hour and 40 minutes of this podcast and I hope hope some people were able to hang around long enough or maybe watching or viewing it or listening to it in segments if you have to. But we appreciate everyone hanging in there. We got wide receivers and tight ends coming up in a little bit. I'm sure that will be another monster. Although you know, we'll try to manage it. But I like here's the deal. We put in all this time we've never had a place to absolutely uncork like we just did. Can you imagine if I tried to go as long on one of these players at my former for place of employment, let alone all of these. So I just appreciate those who are willing to sit here and sit there and listen and watch and be a part of this. And we're going to keep providing this in depth stuff whether you agree with us or not. And I got news for you, a lot of people in the league will and won't from player to player basis. Right. But that's the beauty of this thing. We love doing it. I know mentioned it like it is a passion project and it is our career, thank goodness but like the passion never goes away and I hope hope everyone appreciates that too. Thank you for watching. Thank you for downloading. Hit the likes Men does this better than me now I can always admit when men is better, he's better. We'll see you on Thursday though. Mock draft. Gotta stop down. I've already done the tight ends. I'm like pretty deep into wide receivers. Gonna stop down. Mock draft. I'm gonna spend the whole day tomorrow, make some calls, start to get some feel. We're gonna mock draft on Thursday and I don't know could it be qb.

[B]

There we go.

[A]

And two at the top of this draft.

[B]

Here we go.

[A]

You'll have to sounds like it. Subscribe to the McShay Report. Google it if you don't know where to get it and you'll have the first thing you wake up Thursday morning. It will be there and our podcast will also be there. Our show for Thursday, so appreciate everyone taking the time. Must be 21 + and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18/ plus and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New.