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- [00:00]
Todd McShay
This episode is brought to you by no Bull. Every day is an opportunity to grow stronger, especially when you've got best in class award winning footwear backing you up. No bowl is a footwear brand for training and for daily life built to support you in your pursuit of physical, mental and emotional strength. And get this exclusive for the McShay show listeners. No bull is offering 30 off your order. Visit nobleproject.com SL McShay for 30% off your entire order. That's N o B U L L P r o j e c t.com backslash McShay for 30% off. It's the McShay show, presented by FanDuel. It's our time. It's officially NFL Draft season and you can get in on all the action with FanDuel. FanDuel has lots of ways to bet on the draft, like pick, position, team to draft a player, exact order, top five and 10 picks, and so much more. When you win, you get paid instantly. FanDuel always has exclusive offers. The app is safe, secure and easy to use. So download FanDuel Sportsbook app today and make every moment more during the NFL draft, the Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg d help.com to learn more about the resources and help lines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 and older and present in select states. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com Bonus Show Men Bonus show. Just when you thought you couldn't get enough of me, right? I know. Listen, I know I'm told not to appreciate the audience. We do appreciate the support. We've gotten so many questions over the over the course of the last six months in this show. Here we are just six days out of the NFL draft, right? I'm looking at this thing and I'm like, we've got to have a show. We've got to have a show. A mailbag show. And that's what we're calling the draft Mailbag special. We're doing it today, answering all of your questions. There's no rundown. There's no show script. There's no agenda. There's no offensive lineman men needs to talk about. Although I'm sure we'll get into it. But we're six days out from the NFL draft. Mensch, you good?
- [02:25]
Mitch
I'm good.
- [02:26]
Todd McShay
Tickle me some sweet music there. Tuck was described to me by Tucker, our trusted man of, man of everything, producer, director. I mean, we've got so many talented and really fun people to work with here in the ring. But Tucker described. I don't know, we're very fortunate people, right? Tucker described it as an overwhelming response when we asked. I sent out an X post Instagram in the and also in the newsletter, the McShay Report. Thank you for subscribing. If you don't, please just Google it quickly. The McShay Report. Subscribe for free if you want. We got this special promo running sprint to the podium. I actually thought it should have been sprint past the podium, but no one listens to me, understandably. So sprint past the podium because it's not just for this draft. It's through the month of May, the end of May. You can get there you go. Sprint past the podium. Don't stop. And the big bear hugs on the stage. Keep going. $1, folks. It's a buck. All right. $1 through the month of May. It's my final big board. It's not just the top 100, which I'm hoping to win that competition again on the Huddle Report. We'll turn that thing in on time. We. We got the final big board for the top 300. You're gonna turn one in, men?
- [03:58]
Mitch
Yeah, of course I will.
- [04:01]
Todd McShay
I love it all my latest buzz through the draft, right? We've got winners and they call it winners and losers. Winners and like, hey, we get some work still to do. Breakdown after the draft and the way too early 2026 mock draft, which I actually put a little bit of work. You saw. I sent you a text starting the board a little bit. Plus I am writing. I'm in the midst, Dan. Another unbelievably talented and wonderful human being that we get to work with here. Dan Comer. I'm in the midst match of my Hollands opus. We started it as like, yeah, let's answer some questions. We'll throw it together, mail back. We got so many damn questions. Great questions. And I can't. You know me when I start going, I'm like this. I can't stop. It's a hollow. It's my Holland's opus. We get the AFC mailbag coming out Friday morning, the NFC mailbag coming out Saturday morning. And these answers are. It's like everything I have. I'm finally emptying the bag before I get on that plane Sunday, head out to LA with me sitting in the big chair. Aren't you, big boy? Yeah. I upgraded your ass. That happen first class to LA for Mech and. And we get going on draft week. There and just a quick reminder, I know I'm not supposed to do all this. Everyone gets so annoyed. But please join us. I want 100,000. That's my goal. I want 100,000 viewers on YouTube and Spotify.
- [05:22]
Mitch
Aim high, man.
- [05:23]
Todd McShay
Maybe 200,000. But we'll start with a hundred thousand. We're live streaming from there. We've got the great show that's going to be a blast with Rosillo on on Saturday from noon Pacific Time, 3pm Eastern Time on Saturday from Marcillo's house. Absolutely. Gonna torch that place. Turn it upside down. Okay, give us a quick update.
- [05:42]
Mitch
Where are we on the. What's the 40 status? Where. Where are we?
- [05:45]
Todd McShay
I talked to him the other day with Daniel Jeremiah. He didn't say no. He's worried. He's worried. He's worried about injury. Okay. Understandably, D.J. proposed that we should run it in the sand. He lives like, of course, Rossello, you know, bachelor pad in Manhattan Beach.
- [06:03]
Mitch
Right.
- [06:03]
Todd McShay
He lives like, I don't know, like a seven iron from the beach. He. He thinks we should run in the sand because he wants to give Risso an excuse. We're doing on. On the Strand there, or we're gonna do it up on one of the streets in Manhattan Beach. I want to run the 40. He didn't say no, and he was pissed. And I knew I would piss him off because I went on with Bill Simmons and we started talking about six seconds as the bar, as the over under. That got him. I actually think he's going to be like a 5, 1, 52 is what I told him. But he also mentioned the meat stick. That's pretty good. He mentioned that he's got a squat bar out there, too, and maybe we could do the 225 bench press rep. So we'll see what we can get out of Priscilla. But that Saturday, the first night of the draft, we're live streaming. Let's get 100,000 people. Put it. I don't care. Put ESPN NFL Network on the side. Get your iPad out, get your third screen, make it your primary screen. We're going to have a blast covering the entire draft. We're going to start one hour earlier. So I believe the draft starts at 8pm Eastern. We're going to be on at 7pm Eastern. I'm going to tell you everything. I'm here talking to GMs, talking to scouts, coaches around the league. We're going to give you all that information, what we're hearing, what we think the potential moves could be. Then we're done with that first day, we get the second round, and then we're going to do a review show after the first three rounds of what teams have accomplished. Nice big review show for you to have Saturday morning as you get up and you're ready for the draft. Then come visit us at Rossello's house on Saturday. All right, that's it for the pitches, that's it for the stories. But if you want my Holland's opus, the Mailbag, which is much beyond I'm answering in that I'm answering Mensch. Just so you know, we got so many overwhelming response. That's what Tucker tells me, overwhelming. And I see it on my. My ex feed. I asked for questions, which is wonderful. Thank you. That's why we're here today. An additional show this week. We got so many questions that we decided, all right, let's do a show and let's kind of make it more player specific, unique questions. These questions are awesome, man. I don't know if you had a second to preview them. Preview them. I didn't. I. I tried on purpose. I. I want it to be a natural response. I've got a sense of where we're going. I have not done any preparation for the show. Okay. But we got so many of them that there were enough to fill a mailbag for each team. We got questions, multiple questions for all 32 markets. Okay. So if team specific stuff, we'll get into some of it here. But the very specific team stuff I have in that Holland's Opus called the. The Mailbag on in the McShay report. Today, we're going to answer these questions that were sent in. So here we go. Are you ready? First question comes in from the McShay Report subscriber. We appreciate you, Justin, and everyone else who subscribes.
- [08:44]
Mitch
Let's go.
- [08:44]
Todd McShay
Justin, when you look back at at all the time you've been covering the draft, what are the common threads for the teams that consistently perform the best? Is there an organizational and process model that sticks out or are there a few ways to do it that can work? Well, there are obviously multiple ways and there's no one answer.
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Mitch
I go back, you gotta stay true to yourself. You have to stay true to yourself. But go ahead.
- [09:18]
Todd McShay
Yeah. So much of it is identifying players for your scheme and honest to goodness, if you don't have a quarterback, none of it matters. None of it matters. I talked to a gm. I talked to a GM recently, Mitch, and a really good open conversation about his drafting career as a longtime GM in The NFL. And we talked about the situation that the Browns are in and the Giants are in and the Saints are in. And he was talking about the one time that he took a chance, let's just say, on a certain quarterback where he, he knew deep down in his core that if it was any other position, that player would have been taken in the second round or wherever, but took a. But. But took a hack because you get to take swings at this thing. And, and he said when he looks back at his career, it's one of the, the mistakes he made, like up there, near the top, maybe at the top. Okay. And so I. And that's not like breaking news, right? But just to hear it from someone who sat in that chair, you know, the advice that would be given. And then I, I also look this thing up, too, but we can get into it later. But quarterback, it starts there. How are you going to land your quarterback? And if you identify that, you get. If you and your head coach and your offensive coordinator are lockstep on a guy, Whatever it takes. Whatever it takes, Go get him. Okay. That's what I would say, for starters. Then once you've got your quarterback. And I've preached this for a while now. I've done a study on a lot of the top organizations, from the, the Ravens to the Green Bay packers, who have always had a quarterback in my lifetime, dating back to Brett Favre to the, to the Kansas City Chiefs to the Buffalo Bills, like the Philadelphia Eagles. Right. All the organizations that are consistently winning Super Bowls and. Or in the playoffs. Like, it's. Close your eyes and think of it when they get their quarterback. It's, it's. If you go through, like, draft. I use drafthistory.com right. It's the quickest, best resource to go. You can look up the history of the NFL draft by team, by position, by year, by school, all those things. If you go and look and you study by team of those organizations, once they've identified. Identified, they've got their guy. It's remarkable, the trend of immediately flipping to the defensive side of the ball, typically with defensive linemen and cornerbacks early in drafts. Okay. And. And it makes sense because you talk to, From Bill Polian with his days with the Colts, we had so many conversations. Dwight Freeney and the pass rushers that they brought in under the 16 second mark. I can still hear these conversations in my head. They got to run under 1 6. We need guys on the turf. They can run fast. We need closers. We talked to Howie Roseman Two time Super bowl winning general general manager for the Philadelphia Eagles. What did he say to us? Bench. If you're going to score a lot of points, you need what? Closers? Yeah, remember the conversation.
- [12:23]
Mitch
You got me on the spot, man.
- [12:24]
Todd McShay
No, I know you need, you need closers and that's why every year it's like there's how we. Again, everyone like focuses on the Georgia thing. How about focus on the fact that it's like they, they keep drafting defensive linemen in the first three rounds. Like, where are they going to play these guys? Well, all of a sudden, you know, Milton Williams comes up and he's gone. So now plug in the next guy.
- [12:44]
Mitch
Yeah.
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Todd McShay
So that, to answer your question, Justin, for me is one of the trends and themes that I've studied. And, and I believe it. I truly believe, because the quarterback can make up for the, the sins of 10 other guys on the offensive side, he can't do much for you defensively outside of field position.
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Mitch
Right, right.
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Todd McShay
What else?
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Mitch
I love this. I love the strategy. And you're right about the strategy. You still got to find the right players. Right. And I think if you look at an organization like Baltimore, which is, I think is a good organ organization to study, you look at the continuity of that organization and how they develop their scouts, how, you know, they. Dasta came up under Aussie, they hired within. It was a smooth transition.
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Todd McShay
They pay their scouts too.
- [13:30]
Mitch
Yeah, they take care of them and they, they ask a lot, by the way. It's not, it's not just free paycheck, you earn it. But when you're in that building, everyone's on the same page of what they think is going to be a good Baltimore Raven. What is a. How someone's going to fill a need or, or fill, you know, play a role on their roster and that's invaluable. You know, there's a lot of turnover in the league and it drives me nuts because I feel like some of these front offices don't get a chance to really establish their program. There's no consistency, there's no continuity. And then you're bringing someone else in and you're starting all over again. When coaches and scouts and front office personnel and everyone is owners are all on the same page and they're all rowing in the same direction. I can't tell you how much that can do for an organization that's it's so important. And when you're turning over as much as you are, whatever. And again, it doesn't have to be the Same approach. And it doesn't have to be the. You don't have to value the same positions the same way, but just have everyone on the same page, everyone believing and then having the, you know, the understanding and the will to adjust and tweak your approach without abandoning it. So if there's a new trend developing or if you've learned that, you know, we used to love players from this conference or we thought this size receiver, this and you're in the. The game is evolving. You evolve with the game without totally abandoning what your personality is, what you're.
- [14:47]
Todd McShay
You'Re identity is two other things when it comes to drafting specifically that I've, I've, I think are fairly, I don't want to say obvious, but I've, I've grown an appreciation for and as I get older, I, my, my patience has improved. We're still working on it, baby. 48 years in, we're still working on the patience.
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Mitch
It's getting better.
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Todd McShay
But the organizations that make the biggest mistakes are the impatient ones. And the organizations, if you watch how many times did Aussie Nome and has Eric Dasta sat there at pick 26, 27, 28, 30. Right. And a guy that we all believed it was going to be drafted like 15, 17 lands right in their lap. Patience.
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Mitch
Howie too. They both do that. Howie did that too. Yeah.
- [15:39]
Todd McShay
How He's a different. Howie's got ants in his pants.
- [15:41]
Mitch
I know.
- [15:42]
Todd McShay
Yeah, he'll move up to move down to move up, but he'll wind up. He out thinks you. I wouldn't want to trade with Howie because if I, when I'm done with the deal with Howie, I think, oh, I got the best of them or that's a fair value trade. And then I come to realize like two weeks later he got me. Like, he does a great job with that. But there, but that plays into my second point. We're all human. Every scouting department messes up. And it's not necessarily the, the evaluation of the player. Oftentimes I, I tell this story because it sticks with me. Almost 20 years later, men sitting there with Marty Schottenheimer on the ESPN set. I was doing.com like 20 years ago, okay. And he said, Todd, I, I'm telling you, he's like, you could, you could have the best eye for talent in the world. The hardest part of this whole deal, this whole deal is when you get, when you give a human being, it doesn't matter what profession, you give a human being more money, more free time and more fame than that. Person has ever had before. It's a deadly combination and it's almost impossible to predict. And so, you know, my point in all of that is their mistakes will be made. And it probably isn't because you were wrong on the talent level because the arm strength was good enough or the 40 wasn't fast enough. It's because you were wrong on the person. So more. More is better. Quantity over quality. Typically, unless we're dealing with a quarterback or a very specific thing for a very specific team at that time, quantity of picks is better. And that's what I look at this year. I don't have my chart.
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Mitch
That's why teams value them so much, right?
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Todd McShay
Yes. And that's why, like, and, and you.
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Mitch
Hear like, why do you have, why do you care about a second or third round pick? It's. They're.
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Todd McShay
You hear about these trades for like. Yeah, or like fifth and sixth rounds.
- [17:40]
Mitch
Exactly.
- [17:40]
Todd McShay
All you gotta do is hit on one of those guys and get a starter. And now you've increased the odds of that being a winning draft. I look at teams right now like Atlanta and Arizona with, with five and six, respectively. Minnesota only with four picks in the entire draft. I'm talking Washington, five picks. Those are teams, if they're smart and get the opportunity, you might hear their name whether it's in the first night or the SEC or early in the second night of the draft. Moving back, on the flip side, I'm just going down the list alphabetically. Baltimore, 11 picks. Buffalo, 10 picks. Cleveland and Dallas have 10 picks. Jacksonville, 10 picks. Chargers, 10 picks. Miami, 10 picks. They need it. San Fran, 11 picks. Need them. Seattle, 10 picks. John Schneider's trying to, you know, rekindle the old flame, go back to his scouting days. So those are the organizations I'm fascinated to see what they do in this year's draft. And it may not be packaging all those picks to go up and get one guy. It may just be they stick home, get 11, 10 guys and, and five of them work out. And that's, that's a great three starters. I was told early in my career, three starters from a given draft, three good, solid starters keeps your roster replenished. Four is a great draft. Anything beyond is outrageous. So, all right, what you think about, you're like, all this work, all these private planes and flights and Senior bowl and East West, Shrine and Hula bowl and combine and private workouts and pro day workouts and all this stuff, all this money, all these resources, and if I can get, I do it all to get three to five starters from a draft class. It's wild. All right, next question. Matt, another premium McShay Report subscriber. We appreciate you, Matt and everyone else. Why is Mason Graham fallen out of the running at number four when he's still considered a blue chip and possibly a top three player in the draft? Mitch, take it.
- [19:40]
Mitch
Why is he falling out? Is he. Is that. Do you feel like he's. That's not happening.
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Todd McShay
Oh, Matt. Matt's asking.
- [19:45]
Mitch
I could see why. We'll go into why.
- [19:48]
Todd McShay
I think the question probably is. I don't, and I don't want to speak for you, Matt, but I think the question's more. We've talked about him as a top three player. Right. And now, now all of a sudden New England at four is going to take Will Campbell, let's say, if that's how it plays out. Why. Why is he going to wind up at 5? I don't know. Feels like splitting hairs a little bit, but go ahead. Yeah.
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Mitch
So, I mean, let's look at it this way. I think you'll talk about need a little bit. I'll let you do that. Let's look at the two defensive tackles that last went in the top five. I think this is right. Marcel Darius was in 2011 and Quinn and Williams was in 2019. They're both the third overall picks in their drafts. Both of them were 300.
- [20:34]
Todd McShay
Those are the, those are the last. When you rip off information like that, Mitch, put more emphasis on it.
- [20:41]
Mitch
Look at you.
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Todd McShay
Those are the last.
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Mitch
I always get nervous that I missed a guy.
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Todd McShay
Those are the last two five top five interior.
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Mitch
Wow.
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Todd McShay
Yeah.
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Mitch
2019, 2011. I believe.
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Todd McShay
Not know that both Bama.
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Mitch
Boys, both guys have played at Alabama.
- [21:01]
Todd McShay
That's wild.
- [21:01]
Mitch
And both were 300 plus pounds. Both of them run sub. Sub 5 second 40s. Both of them had longer arms. And Mason Graham, like, look, if you're sitting there and you're doing a commercial for the draft lead up and, and, and you've asked for the, the guy who's the third player on the board and it's a defensive tackle and Mason Graham walks in and we've seen him, you know, we saw him at the combine. You're like, who's this guy? You know, you're not thinking that, you know, who's this. This dude?
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Todd McShay
Now why you get the same vibe looking at him as I got looking at Brock Bowers a year ago when he was standing next to Gronk, Right? Yeah.
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Mitch
And he may. And, and I'm not saying he will fall. But that may be why, you know, if you're looking at it. So we're talking about a position that doesn't traditionally go that early. And we're talking about guys like in Dominic and Sue was another top five pick. I mean, these are. When you look at the guys who've gone in the top five, it's. They look different. They. They are different kinds of athletes. And Mason Graham isn't necessarily a guy that tests that well. He didn't run at the combine. He doesn't have great length. He's sub 300 pounds. But you know, don't make the mistake. I get doing it based on need and, and if you value a player a little bit higher, I get all of those things. But I, I mean, I feel really confident that Mason Graham's gonna be a really good pro. I mean, a really good pro.
- [22:20]
Todd McShay
Yeah, his tape was a thing of beauty, man. Yeah, the hand usage, the leverage. Former wrestler just knows the angles, the instincts, the awareness. I just, I love this tape. I, I can see two years in.
- [22:35]
Mitch
A row too, by the way. 2023 and 2024, both outstanding.
- [22:39]
Todd McShay
Yes.
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Mitch
I mean, he didn't have. I mean, which is not a lot of bad tape out there.
- [22:43]
Todd McShay
I feel like we don't say that enough about players. When you're stacking years, that says something to me. And I, I just look at James Gladstone, GM of the. And we said this the other day, but it's worth repeating. He was an integral part of what the Rams did. Working under less, need less, made the final decisions. But, but he was an integral part of that process with the, with the Rams. And they drafted two high impact defensive, interior, interior defensive linemen that had shorter arms. Most Recently, Braden Fisk, 32 inch arms. And just prior to that, our former Richmond spider who defected to Wake Forest for a year before getting drafted. I think in the third round. Was it Kobe Turner with 31 inch arms? So what. What, you're giving me a look?
- [23:34]
Mitch
No, I was trying to think about what round it was. Third sounds right.
- [23:37]
Todd McShay
Okay, so he would be. Based off his experiences, he might be more likely than say, like a. John Dorsey ain't drafting a. And I know he's out of the league and he's not with Jacksonville anymore, but if John Dorsey were there, like, Mason Graham ain't the pick. He's a, he's a measurable length, thick, you know, all that stuff. So it can sometimes just come down to who's making that, that call. Doug on X. Appreciate the fall mensch it's you good mensch. You good mensch. M U M U E N C H is his handle on x and mine's McShay. 13. Doug on X asks, can you explain what 31. Oh, this ties in perfectly. Can you explain what 31 inch arms on an O lineman or D lineman means? What's the specific physical advantage to having longer arms at those position? Mets, this is right in your wheelhouse.
- [24:37]
Mitch
Yeah, 31 inches is. I'm gonna check my average. I just, I have the sheet that I keep for every position of what the average lengths and, and you know, measurables are for every position and we'll get into this a little bit. But 31 inch arms would be, that's, that's tough for an offensive lineman. 32 inch arms for an offensive line. We're talking about a center.
- [24:58]
Todd McShay
Yeah, yeah, right.
- [24:59]
Mitch
But that's where I mean that's the lower end of it. For defensive lineman, I don't think it's quite as important. But again for defensive tackle, you know, you're looking around 33 and an eighth. You know, I think you get away with, with shorter arms of that position a little bit more.
- [25:13]
Todd McShay
And that's a con, that's a five year combine average. Right, Right.
- [25:17]
Mitch
So we'll to to say why is it important? Why, how? What's the advantage that it gives? So we'll go through the offensive line first. I think that you really want to create separation in the pass game. You know, you can get it. You can be quick enough to get into position and you could be with a really balanced stance and all of that stuff. And I look at feet first when I'm watching defensive lineman and offensive lineman but then the next thing I want to know is who's winning the hand to hand combat. And the length is a real asset when it comes to hand to hand combat. You see guys like a Shamar Stewart out of Texas A and M come screaming off the corner and all of a sudden transition from speed to power and he shoots that long arm on you. I don't care who you are. It's real tough to sit in anchor against that. But if you could shoot your punch and you can take time that punch up and kind of disrupt that momentum, you're in a lot better position. Again, this matters more for offensive tackles than guards, but it still matters for guards and, and centers. And then the flip side is true for defensive linemen. Right. It's again, who's getting that momentum, who's landing the first punch and it gives them A significant advantage. If you're a guy coming off the edge and you have that, those long arms to shoot and start driving an offensive tackle and then you can get off the block late or long arm or all of those things, it's a real advantage for you. Now I will say this. There are plenty of guys that have long arms to play offensive tackle and have no idea how to use them. They don't time their punch well. They're late with their punch, they're wide with their punch. It's not a, it's not a, oh, he checks this box. It's, you know, does he use it to his advantage? And that's true about every trade for every football player. If you're quick, do you use it to your advantage or are you not instinctive enough to use that? So there's all those things that come into play. I also think scheme comes into, into, into account. If you're a defensive lineman, you're playing a two gap scheme and you need to press blockers off your frame, then length is probably a little bit more important than if you're playing in an aggressive one gap scheme. And that's why Fisk is so good with those short arms is he's by you before you, you, you can block him. You know, it, it like you talk about not having length. He just doesn't, it's not part of his game. He doesn't care. And that's great that you know, you take that into account when you're evaluating a player.
- [27:24]
Todd McShay
I notice it sometimes with shorter armed tackles and I think everything you just said is beautiful. That's, I mean that sums it up really well. Shorter armed offensive tackles have a tendency to be overly eager to get into. They're not as patient and they're not as patient because it's like the little rascal nephew who's, you know who you're the uncle with the long arms is kind of holding by the head, you know, like they're, they want to get into the body and they're like so and what is that? What's the downfall of that? What's the vulnerability? It's, you lose, you can lose balance anytime you're, you're over asserting and you know, then all of a sudden it can throw off your balance when you're off balance. When you get to that league with those, those grown ass men like good luck.
- [28:13]
Mitch
Yeah. And if you do it once, you're going to see it five times the next game, you're going to see it 10 times the next game. It's not. You better if you got. You got to fix the holes in your game, man, or you won't last that league.
- [28:24]
Todd McShay
Yeah. So. All right, good stuff. Next question. That was from Doug. This is from Jake. Jake. Another premium McShay Report subscriber. Okay, here's the question. Excluding Abdul Carter. Oh, this is gonna be fun. Can you build the best possible edge, rusher, slash, DE using the skill sets of basically all of the strength, hands, quickness, snap bend, shedding blockers, all that stuff of the players in this draft? Let's have some fun with this. I'll give it a stab, mensch. Of what I would build. Okay. And you can. You can poke holes or you can take it further or you can add some traits. I want. Let me get pulled this up. I want the length of Mikel Williams. 6 5, 260, 34 and 38 inch arms. That's longer than a lot of the tackles he's going to go up against. Okay. So you talk about winning that leverage game and getting into pads. I want his like first step speed. Like that F to me. Let's just go first step and speed like that explosive burst. No one ever had a better. I remember like watching and thinking he was getting the. The pitch count tipped to him or the pitch tip to him. Von Miller. Yes. I remember watching the. Why? Because like when you were studying the tape, without question, the all 22 and then you get the tight, right. And I remember that Oklahoma game for some reason that pops in my head. A M versus Oklahoma. How long ago was that? I still remember that game because I remember watching the tight, which is from behind. And I'm like, my goodness, he's. He's up in their pads fast. And then I flipped it over to the wide and it was like. How do I explain? Was like he knew the snap count. And I started to. So I started watching the center to see if he was tip. And it's actually, oh, Sam Bradford. And they were doing the clap thing. And I'm like, he's. He's got a beat on it. And then Bradford did.
- [30:22]
Mitch
Yeah.
- [30:24]
Todd McShay
Second clap. And he still was like, you know, I'm like that son of a. Yeah.
- [30:30]
Mitch
Then it would reduce surface area. He was. I mean, he was unbelievable.
- [30:34]
Todd McShay
But he was different than everyone. There is no Von Miller in this class. But the closest thing too, in terms of that first step explosion and speed to finish with it is James Pierce.
- [30:46]
Mitch
Yeah, I was good. Okay, well, I thought you were gonna go Walker, but I'm with you on Pierce.
- [30:51]
Todd McShay
I Considered Walker. I'll get to Walker in a second. Okay. But Pierce, you gotta remember Pierce ran a 4, 4 7. I mean, that's. That you're happy with that.
- [31:02]
Mitch
That's different.
- [31:03]
Todd McShay
You're right.
- [31:03]
Mitch
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [31:04]
Todd McShay
Okay. But it's. But it's also the. Then I went with redirect that outside in move or, or this is important too. Not just like an outside in or an inside out move right before you get to the tackle. Also the. All right, I got in the backfield. But the, but the. The spot has changed. The quarterback's office spot. Now I gotta, I gotta. Instead of the old Titanic that me and Spielman used to talk about. You know, there's. There's some of those guys. And interestingly enough, Mike Green. I'll get to him in a second for Marshall. Phenomenal pass rusher. I'll get to his straight in a second. He leaves some sacks on the field. He's so explosive, he's so quick, but he's got a little redirect, slowness. So he'll get back there tight. He'll get you off the spot. And I know he led the nation in sacks, but that's going to be an issue for his game. So that's the redirect.
- [31:57]
Mitch
And.
- [31:58]
Todd McShay
And I think some of the bend too with. With kind of like the rip, dip, dip and rip. Violent hands. I went with Mike Green. That dude in his frame is so damn powerful. And the snap in his hands. So I got frame and length of Mikel. First steps burst and. And speed. The get off in the speed of Pierce. The redirect of Jaylen, the violent hands of. Of Mike Green, the strong ass leg drive of Shemar Stewart. That dude. Will, you just said the 34 and 38 inch arms picture. Arm up in the chest of the offensive lineman. Flat back in that ass. Right into the quarterback. Flat, flat back.
- [32:46]
Mitch
He gets you off balance and just throws you up field. I mean it's. Yeah, it's. It's fun to watch.
- [32:51]
Todd McShay
Where he struggles on the block. Where he struggles is the instincts and awareness. And that's why I'm gonna. For instincts and awareness. I'm going with Azaraku.
- [33:02]
Mitch
I love this. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna. I. I would do the same thing. I hate agreeing with you as much as I do. I mean, polishing game plan. That kid's got it. I mean, he's. Yeah, he always has a plan. He always knows how to set guys up. It seems like he's thinking almost two or Three snaps ahead instead of just within that one, one, one play.
- [33:21]
Todd McShay
I, I told you I was talking to D to DJ and Marcillo the other day. We did a show. It was actually a lot of fun. He actually, he made a good point and I absolutely agree with him. The special traits at edge are really important to find. And I just.
- [33:37]
Mitch
DJ Rosillo.
- [33:39]
Todd McShay
Definitely not Rosillo Daniel. That's gonna be interesting. He was saying like it goes. I, I wonder in. In his conversations with people in the league too, as Iraq, who we all believe he's going to get to the point where he's really successful. Like we all believe in him. The motor, the instincts, the awareness, the hand usage. He's got a good like, I wouldn't even call it like the bend and torso flexibility as much as it is like it doesn't waste a lot of motion with him, you know, and he's just a technician and had he never quits. But like Liatu last year out of ucla, the supremely talented technicians, not the supremely gifted technicians. The guys who are awesome with their hands and the plan and all that stuff. Sometimes it takes them a little while. Like Trey Hendrickson, he was saying to emerge because you get to the league and it's like, oh shoot, Now I got 35 inch arms at left tackle. I've got guys who can handle power and speed, so I've got to kind of. I got to hone my craft. And that's what he was saying that some teams he talked to were kind of struggling with. I love them. But is he first? Like where in the first round do I want to take a guy that may not be ready to offer me a whole lot as a rookie? So I thought that was interesting. All right, next question. Premium McShay Report subscriber Chad, thank you for the content and deep dives. As a former db, this is going to be a DB centric question. Appreciate that. When you're evaluating corners, what are you looking for to determine if someone is a nickel slot or an outside corner? Also, although people like Jade Barron and Jacob Parrish be used be best used nickel, I think they have the chops to match up on the outside. That's his opinion. I understand the big the big wide receiver receiver versus small guy argument, but I also used to give bigger wide. Oh, I like this. I see you, Chad. I understand the big wide receiver versus small guy argument, but I used to give bigger wide receivers problems in press coverage. I am 59. Thank you. As always. I love that. Chad, go ahead.
- [35:58]
Mitch
I want to see Chad's tape, Send it in.
- [36:00]
Todd McShay
Yeah, let's see. Yes, Chad.
- [36:02]
Mitch
So do you remember a corner named Dre Bly? He's, he's just under 5 10. Yeah, played for the Rams. Really good player. I would, I went down to Charlotte for a couple years and did a radio draft show down there and he was there one year. He probably doesn't remember this conversation, but he's there. He was shade under 5 10. He was a real physical corner. He was a guy that could match up on the outside even though he wasn't taller. And he, man, he pulled me over and he was like, hey, you listen, you're talking about a lot of these guys being nickel guys. You know, you're not selling out my smaller guys because you know, he took it personally. That was in some of. Some players do. Steve Smith, when you looked at him as the wide receiver, another Carolina guy, the Panthers, you know, he was a small receiver, but he won so many contested catches downfield it didn't matter. He played on the outside. That being said, here's what I'm looking for. When you're looking for a nickel, you have specific challenges, right? You're going up against a slot receiver that has a two way go and that's. You have to be a little bit more fluid and you have to be quicker. I also think, interestingly enough, you have to be very good against the run because you're playing close to the line of scrimmage and a lot of teams are running out of those spread sets, but you, so you better be tough and you better be willing to play the run on the outside. You don't necessarily have to be bigger, but you, you have to be strong. You have to be good enough to reroute receivers. You have to be competitive enough to compete for 50, 50 balls. Those are kind of the things you got to be able to run with guys downfield. Those are the kind of things that I'm looking for in an outside corner. So to simplify it, a nickel would be quicker, more fluid, still tough. An outside corner would be someone who can reroute guys and could run maybe a little bit better downfield.
- [37:40]
Todd McShay
Yeah, it is interesting. I want to go in a couple places with this. There's not many guys and I'm just kind of looking through it now. There's not many guys that aren't 5, 11 and most of them, most of the really good ones are six foot or taller. Okay. At outside corner in the NFL, right. You think about it like the Christian Gonzalez, Joey Porter, Junior Slay, certain, Sneed, Diggs, Woolen, all taller, longer guys.
- [38:18]
Mitch
Jalen Ramsey in his prime.
- [38:21]
Todd McShay
Yeah, I mean, you just, you go down the list, right? And, and it's because of the length. I've always said, listen, not all positions matters. Like the 40 times, the workouts, all that stuff. No position is driven more by the, by a combination of two measurables than corner is driven by length and speed. That 40 time combined with the arm length. And even when you get a guy like Denzel Ward, who's a little undersized, he's got 31, he's got 31 and a half inch arms, which is, you know, when you get to that 30 inch range or, or sub 30. And I think that that's part of the, you know, the question mark. I look at, at one of my favorite players in the entire draft, Jade baron, Texas corner, 29 and 5, 8 inches. Okay, so it's a deal. It's a thing. But I also want to say this. Chad, my five nine corner, I am on a kick right now. Where did I put it? I am on an absolute kick.
- [39:28]
Mitch
The thing about Baron though is he plays the ball so well. Shorter arms.
- [39:32]
Todd McShay
There we go. Say it again. I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. His ability to displace. It's like when I'm talking to Marissa, she says, how is that? I ask a question and for two minutes or silence, and then all of a sudden you're like, like, I know I have issues. I wanted to. I want you to hear this list, Chad and everybody else, okay? Mike sanra, still. Cooper DeJean, Drew Phillips, Tyke Smith, Tarheeb, still Garrett Williams, Brian Branch. Okay. Dax Hill, Jalen Petrie, all of these guys, various. They're all nickels. Okay. Cooper Dean is, is different. He's bigger than most of the guys. All of these guys didn't have the measurables, didn't. Whether it's the arm length, the speed for dejean, whatever it was that got them to that nickel spot. Sandra still, second round, 2024. DeJean, second round. 2024. Phillips, second round, third round, 2024. Tyche Smith, third round, 2024. Tarheeb, still fifth round, 2024. That's all, that's all from last year. 2023. Garrett Williams, second round. Brian Branch, second round. Byron Murphy, third round, all 2023. 2022. Last three drafts. Dax Hill, 31st overall pick. Jalen Petrie, second round. All of those guys, 31st pick, but all of everyone else, second or third or fourth or fifth round. Draft pick. They're all absolute difference makers in the NFL and they got, were gotten on the cheap. And that's why I have to wonder, because nickel is a starter. We don't have a Mike and a.
- [41:25]
Mitch
Sam and a will 100%. That's why inside linebackers aren't valued the same way as they were before, because you're replacing one with that nickel and that's your base.
- [41:35]
Todd McShay
So why is it that my nickel guy, all these guys are like interceptions in the playoffs. Advance to the next round. Interceptions and Super Bowls. They're not impact players. No, it's a starting position and you're covering up these wide receivers that become so important in today's game. That's why when I see a Jade, a Baron, when I see a Maxwell Hairston, I'm like, sure, pass on them. I don't know, Chad, I am in your corner.
- [42:15]
Mitch
Go, of course you are. It's, it's other positions that are the same way, though. Why do you get Rob Grouski in the second, you know, in the second round or George Kittle in the fifth round now? You know what I mean though? There's those guys, there's different makers, difference makers that go later on because of the position right now. And we'll see if this changes. Because I agree with you, it's going in that, in that way right now. They're just not valued the same way. And, and I think a GM might respond to you by saying, yeah, because you can get Byron Murphy, which is insane to me, in the third round. I mean, that's just crazy to me that you can get that kind of a player in the third round. So when you're talking about it, I think GMs look at it well. That's the market, man. You can get great running backs in the fifth round. Get great running backs in the third round. Why do I have to take one early? That's probably the way they look at it. I get it. The value doesn't match up with what you get on Sundays. Not even close. I mean, just not. You want control of your financial future.
- [43:12]
Todd McShay
And Schwab knows that. That's why when it comes to managing.
- [43:15]
Mitch
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- [43:26]
Todd McShay
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- [43:29]
Mitch
And 247 live help. Because at Schwab, we understand it's your financial journey and we believe you should have choices in how you invest. Visit schwab.com to learn more. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. It's tax season, and we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's one you need to hear. $16.5 billion. That's how much the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud last year. Now here's a good number. 100 million.
- [43:57]
Todd McShay
That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second.
- [44:01]
Mitch
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- [44:10]
Todd McShay
All right, Brian on X again. Follow. Would you, Would you please, like while you're listening or watch this, pick up your phone and would you follow Mench, please? You good men change. No, no, like the value. Follow Y o u G O O D M U E N C H I want to get him up 10,000. I want a hundred thousand for the live stream. First night of the draft on YouTube and Spotify, minimum. How many followers you got right now, Mitch?
- [44:44]
Mitch
Like 7200.
- [44:46]
Todd McShay
What the. If we're not at 25 followers. If we're not, you do have to be a little better men. She's going to make a commitment right now to you, and they're going to make a commitment to you by following. It's like the dating game. I'm, I'm making a match. You guys start to follow men. Men should have built it and you would come, but why don't you come? And then bench will build it at you good men. Brian on X. Can you compare contrast Jinty with Bijan Robinson? Last two blue chip running backs? Despite being two different styles of running back, they are sl were both considered top running back prospects.
- [45:27]
Mitch
Why talk to me about this one? This one I struggle with a little bit. What's. How different are their styles?
- [45:35]
Todd McShay
Not terribly different. They're one's shorter than the other, I think. I, I. To me personally, I wish Brian had.
- [45:43]
Mitch
Kind of elaborated what he was seeing because maybe Brian's seeing something that we didn't see.
- [45:47]
Todd McShay
I don't think, I don't think Bijan has quite the contact balance.
- [45:58]
Mitch
Okay.
- [46:00]
Todd McShay
I think Bijan, what did Bijan. Right. I don't know if he's fast. I don't know. He's like a longer stride, maybe a little, a little bit more accomplished, like running routes and catching the ball.
- [46:15]
Mitch
That was definitely a thing. Yep.
- [46:17]
Todd McShay
Yeah. I mean, he is, he, he, he absolutely. Coming out of college, he was more accomplished as a route running, catching the ball in, in the open field a little bit more. Whereas I, I view like Alvin Camara. Absolutely can do that stuff. But Al, you look at Alvin's production, it reminds me a lot. It's a lot of screens.
- [46:37]
Mitch
Yeah. Get him in the ball space.
- [46:39]
Todd McShay
Yes. And let him kind of go from 0 to 60.
- [46:44]
Mitch
Nothing wrong with that.
- [46:45]
Todd McShay
No. But I, I do think it's fascinating here. Here I want to make this point. The devaluation of the running back position. Talent trumps trends every time, bro.
- [47:01]
Mitch
Here we go.
- [47:02]
Todd McShay
2017. I told you, we're in the thick of it. It's passing game spreads, all these different concepts. College is trickling up. All that stuff. Still had 30 running backs taken and we had two guys in the top. In the top 10 there. So when. Excuse me, when Ginty, who I. I gave this comparison the other day in case you weren't watching and, and Brian, we appreciate your question. I, I said like I was trying to. I. He. His run style reminds me of a lot. Maybe just because they're kind of shorter, compact. Ladanian Tomlinson. The run style, the combination of vision, change of direction, the quick shiftiness, low to the ground power, and then also the contact balance. Yes, the power.
- [47:45]
Mitch
Yeah.
- [47:46]
Todd McShay
That. That to me is kind of. When I. If I'm trying to find one guy that I think is run style is similar to, it would be lt Ladanian Thompson.
- [47:56]
Mitch
So much fun to watch.
- [47:57]
Todd McShay
Camara is the comp I get. I just can't get it out of my head. Once I. And I even went and I watched Genti and I put on some Camara passing game, you know, receipt. And there's just something about like the quick, the way they start, how shifty they are. And, and it's like easy stuff that they make into big plays. And then I told you the commitment to the games like Herschel Walker. This guy is absolutely insane. I love that everyone's take. Everyone has taken their nil money and they put it in Lamborghinis and all sorts of crazy fun stuff and not good. I'm not promoting any of it. He has put it into like the cryo. I don't even know the name of this. This stuff like the. Into his nutrition chef, into his body. And not because he wants to look good on the beach, because he wants to be the best. Okay. But 10 running in the last 10 years, there have been six running backs that have been drafted in the top 10. This is the last decade. Only six running backs drafted in the top 10, which is understandable. So he, he will keep that number at six, because 2015, that will get knocked off Todd Gurley, but it will remain 10. 10 running backs in the last decade. Drafted in the top ten. When he's drafted to New England at four.
- [49:13]
Mitch
Oh, here we go. Just stir in the pot. Couldn't help yourself.
- [49:19]
Todd McShay
There's a breeze.
- [49:21]
Mitch
Oh, my God. I think fans would be super excited. I mean, they'd still be like, what are we doing at left tackle?
- [49:26]
Todd McShay
But yeah, you can't do that, right? Bring him in and make like Saquon behind the Giants. Saquon behind the Eagles.
- [49:32]
Mitch
Yeah.
- [49:34]
Todd McShay
Here's the list for you, Brian. And I do appreciate the question with Bijan. I. I don't know that we got the best answer for you, but it's more like run style. Like I said, I think more. More contact, balance and power than Bijan. Bijan a little bit more accomplished in terms of getting out running routes, doing things in the passing game. Bijan a little bit better in pass pro, too.
- [49:55]
Mitch
Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, That's.
- [49:57]
Todd McShay
That's definitely purely from a running the football standpoint. Ginty's better.
- [50:05]
Mitch
Okay.
- [50:07]
Todd McShay
My opinion, I love.
- [50:08]
Mitch
I love them both.
- [50:10]
Todd McShay
Bijan. Bijan is the most recent 2023. He was eighth overall, the Falcons, Saquon Barkley, second overall, New York Giants in 2018. Leonard Fournette, fourth overall, Jaguars, 2017. Also that year. We talked about that year. This is. This year's is good, if not better. Hopefully when we look back, we say it was better than 2017 because that group was awesome. That was also Camara and a bunch of other dudes. But Leonard Fournette was fourth to the Jaguars. Christian McCaffrey's four picks later, eighth overall to the Carolina Panthers. Zeke Elliott, fourth overall, Dallas Cowboys, 2016. And then Todd Gurley to the Rams, 10th overall in 2015. What's next? Removing Cam Ward, Shador Sanders. This is Oliver. Oliver on X. Removing Cam Ward, Shador Sanders and Jackson Dart. Okay. Can you build the best possible QB with the following. With the traits from the. With the following traits from the remaining names in the QB class. He went with decision making. Arm strength, mobility, accuracy, leadership, poise in the pocket. Okay.
- [51:20]
Mitch
Yeah. Let's get in the lab. Back in the lab.
- [51:24]
Todd McShay
This is what I like. All right, so we're talking. Let me cross this off. We got. We. We said no Cam Ward crossed off. No Jackson Dart cross off. Shador Sanders, cross off. So now I'm going with this list. Okay. Oliver and everyone tuning in. Tyler Shuck. This is my. These are my rankings. Tyler Shuck, Louisville Jalen Milroe, Alabama. Will Howard, Ohio State. Quinn Ewers, Texas. Riley Leonard, Notre Dame. Dylan Gabriel, Oregon. Kyle McCord, Syracuse. I'm lower than him on. I'm lower on McCord than Colin Cowherd and every draft. Twitter x Instagram sensation.
- [52:04]
Mitch
What grade you. Do you know where you have them right now? What grade? What round?
- [52:08]
Todd McShay
Fourth. No, fifth. I've got him. I don't.
- [52:10]
Mitch
I'm in the fifth too. Scares me.
- [52:14]
Todd McShay
I gotta.
- [52:14]
Mitch
You can have them grade that scheme scares me they. He threw the ball more than anyone else in the country, man.
- [52:20]
Todd McShay
And Tommy Malotte from Montana state is my 11th quarterback and I'll get to him in a minute. Okay, I'm going to give you a couple more traits in here to hone in decision making. I'm going with Will Howard like it specifically like that college football playoff, the way he had answers to the test. And I know Chip Kelly put him in a great position and I know he was driving a Ferrari himself with that offense with the weapons around him. I know that. But his decision make. I saw a guy who knew what to identify. Identified it. And that made his pre snap process, made his post snap decisiveness flat out freaking fun to watch. Like there are very few times times where I'm like yes. They sitting back with this remote, this remote in my hand and I'm watching Tennessee, what was it? Oregon, Texas, Notre Dame. Good defenses, good defensive coordinators, smart guys.
- [53:21]
Mitch
And he's like different defenses too, man. You see a lot of different stuff from those, those defenses.
- [53:26]
Todd McShay
So I would go and his would be almost just ability to. Yeah. To, to decipher what he's looking for. So the decision making. I'll go with him. Yeah, go leadership.
- [53:38]
Mitch
I'm going. Riley Leonard, Notre Dame. I just think about like the season he had to go into. Texas A and M hostile environment. You get that win in the first game of the year and then to lay the egg against Northern Illinois, the sky is falling, everything is crashing around you and then you start stringing wins together. Then you get to the playoff and everyone's like, yeah, who've they beaten? You know, what have they done? And he puts them on their back, they make a run. I, I really think that the Ohio State game, the national championship game might have been his best game of the year.
- [54:11]
Todd McShay
That's gonna get. That is going to get him drafted in the fourth round. I'm telling you with that team.
- [54:15]
Mitch
I mean the first drive, the first drive of that game and I get it, he's running.
- [54:20]
Todd McShay
Add toughness to the leadership trait. If you go leadership, toughness and leading by example. That's how you pick up your team.
- [54:26]
Mitch
And then. And what does he do a week later? You want a competitor? What does he do a week. I've just lost the national championship game. Some guys might want to go to their basement and hang out. He shows up at the Senior bowl the next week and says, how can I get better and improve my draft stock? Give me Riley Leonard for leadership.
- [54:41]
Todd McShay
Totally agree. Arm strength. I'm going Tyler Schuck. The way he snaps the ball off, I'm going Tyler Schuck. Everyone tells me Quinn Ewers has the best arm. Like Quinn. Yours throws a beautiful ball. I don't see the drive. I don't see the. The energy. I see it occasionally on some throws. Really good. But not Tyler Schuck. He can flip that freaking wrist, man. And he snaps it off. And the energy at the end of throws. If you. If you're out there and you're trying to figure out what I. What I learned early on through a lot of smart people who know the whole game, but specifically quarterback. Like, if you really want to figure out on the throws that are cross the field, deep out routes, those. You want to figure out a guy's true arm strength. Anyone could throw a deep ball and change the trajectory a little bit. It's driving the ball that way. And you want to really hone in on the good arm strength. Watch, study. Get the remote back. The energy on the ball at the end of the throw, that will tell you.
- [55:43]
Mitch
Does it dip really good, right? Does dip a little bit. Yeah.
- [55:49]
Todd McShay
Accuracy. This one's interesting.
- [55:52]
Mitch
This one's tough. I think Dylan Gabriel's in the running, but when I went back and watched him, he wasn't quite as accurate as I thought he was going to be.
- [56:00]
Todd McShay
Me too. Me too. I'm giving this. This isn't one of the. The traits, but I'm going to give him a. A best in class trait. That's release, quickness. Okay. I'm good with that ball out quicker than any of these. These, these quarterbacks. Accuracy. Who are you going with?
- [56:21]
Mitch
Rourke. Maybe Curtis Rourke from Indiana. I mean, that's. Could we. Can we.
- [56:27]
Todd McShay
I'm going with shucks.
- [56:29]
Mitch
Oh, so we could double up.
- [56:31]
Todd McShay
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry.
- [56:32]
Mitch
Okay.
- [56:34]
Todd McShay
Okay.
- [56:34]
Mitch
I thought. Yeah, I thought we had to go with.
- [56:36]
Todd McShay
I see what you mean.
- [56:37]
Mitch
Picking a different one. Yeah.
- [56:38]
Todd McShay
I don't think we have to. And to fight for himself. So that leaves mobility with mobile. I mean mobility. Jalen Melro. Not Even close.
- [56:50]
Mitch
Yeah.
- [56:53]
Todd McShay
Although underrated is shuck's mobility. Underrated is not. Not underrated, but I do. It's a very different kind of mobility. But Riley Leonard will be a fourth round draft pick because of the leadership, the toughness, what his commitment will be in the quarterback room. And you think about, okay, I'm in a position here. I'm going to bind my starters down. We got a quarter of a game to close out two quarters. We get two games in the middle of the season. You know that he can bring that mobility to the table, even though as a passer he is not there and may never get there as a starter. Poison the pocket.
- [57:31]
Mitch
My brain is screaming jackson dart right now. But he's not in the mix.
- [57:36]
Todd McShay
I think Howard, it's not shock.
- [57:40]
Mitch
I think Howard's up there.
- [57:41]
Todd McShay
I think so too. It's not McCord, it's not yours. His vers, yours. And McCord's versus pressure reels were challenging task to get through without writing down bad words. I'm going to add another trait. I'm going to add another trait.
- [57:59]
Mitch
Now he's cooking. He's in the kitchen.
- [58:01]
Todd McShay
The. The position flex. Julian Edelman, Josh Craig. Oh, here we go.
- [58:07]
Mitch
You just got to talk about your guy. I love it. Go for it.
- [58:10]
Todd McShay
Tommy Malot, Montana State, 5'11 3/4, 208lbs, option offense.
- [58:16]
Mitch
I'm gonna watch him tonight, man.
- [58:18]
Todd McShay
On day three from Rosillo's house, he will hear his name called, and I will be throwing popcorn in the air to piss Rosillo off. All right, so where are we now, Blake on X. As a Bengals fan. As a Bengals fan, we've struggled to draft impactful offensive linemen for quite some time. From your perspective, why do certain organizations have specific positions they excel at drafting while falling short at other areas? Very thoughtful question. Blake, what do you got?
- [58:45]
Mitch
Mitch, I love this question because I. I don't really have a great answer for it, and I think that's what makes it a great question. Guys are skilled at different things. I think you trust yourself if you identified skill sets. I, I think that if you identify the way guys react in interviews, which is something we talked about, like, who are. What's the human element here? And, and teams have site. You know, all these psychologists or psychiatrists or whatever, these people are former Navy Seals. They all come in and they talk about how to develop an interview to get to the heart of what you're looking for. Right. So if you can do that at certain positions, because it's going to be different at each position you do that, you evaluate skill sets, you evaluate maybe conferences that they come from. You know how what you're looking for specifically on tape. But there's really. It's a to and also it's who's falling to you. You're only. You're kind of handcuffed by where you are picking in the drafts. It's. It's a great question. But you're also kind of handcuffed by where you are picking in the draft and what kind of talent is available at that position. So there's a number of all these, you know, balls in the air, all these different factors that go into whether or not you're successful picking at a certain position. But it is interesting. You know, the Patriots can't draft under Belichick. Couldn't draft a wide receiver if their life depended on it. You know it is interesting that these teams go through these ruts of not being able to find certain players and then other teams like you know Green Bay is famous for drafting receivers outside of the first round. I mean it's, it's interesting and I'm sure there's specific reasons for each one of those things happening. But I don't think it's one thing you can point to and say this is why they're bad at it or this is why they're good at it.
- [60:23]
Todd McShay
Doesn't help that they haven't drafted an offensive lineman. They drafted Marius Mims was the first first round pick they've used on an offensive lineman. Did.
- [60:32]
Mitch
Yeah. You got to throw more darts at.
- [60:33]
Todd McShay
The board man Free Jonah Williams. And it's not just first round. I'm looking Joe Burrows class first offensive lineman drafted was the sixth round 2021 the year later the Jackson Coleman from Clemson or Jack sorry Jackson Carmen from Clemson but that was second round. I didn't like that pick. I remember not liking it at the time 2022 drafted a guard in the fourth round. When you're drafting a guard in the fourth round like you're hoping but you're not 2023 not an offensive lineman drafted. And then this past year they went to Amarius Mims. Yeah I, I don't want to go on forever in this. I do think with offensive linemen and this will read. Go ahead and read the. The McShay report on this. I went into a long thing about offensive lineman. I'm not, I'm not pushing this off but like it was a really thoughtful long answer. The I gave on offensive lineman and I think to summarize it. There's only so many and every year everyone knows it. So guys that we have, that we have mid second round grades, they go in the first few picks and sometimes the last few. First few, few picks of the second round and sometimes the last few picks of the first and guys that we think are late first. You and I both agree, Kelvin Banks just, I can't fully. He. I'm telling you man, there's a chance. He goes 10 to the Bears, 11 to San Fran, like 13 to Miami. They just, God only makes so many human beings. Like think about it in your life, how many times you walk down the street, go to a restaurant, go to a bar, go out and hang out at the PTO committee, go hang out at this, it's a sports complex with your kids, whatever it is, and you see a 300 pound human being that's 6 foot 5, 6 foot 4, 6 foot 5, 6 foot 6, it's 300 pounds. I have the good fortune, I have the good fortune of getting to hang out with men all the time. He's no longer around 300 pounds. He never hit 300 pounds. But my point is I, unless you played football at a high level or you work in this business, you're not coming across many of those humans. Why do I ask you this? I ask you this because. Okay then from that pool of people when occasionally maybe a bouncer at a club you've come by or like, or a friend of a friend at the softball league got a, we got that three. Yeah, he's six, three and a half, I think. 310 pounds. How many of those guys are hungry? I don't know many 300 plus pound human beings who are hungry. And I don't mean appetite, I mean they got to 300 plus pounds because they, they like aren't the most driven human beings a lot of times. So that, so now that pool of human beings declines. Then I've got to take hungry competitive guys that are 300 pounds because they want to be and have worked to be. And then I got to find guys that have an unbelievable balance of violence, strength, nimble footwork. And the secret behind these offensive linemen that no one likes to talk about. They're the second smartest people in the, in the offensive linemen.
- [63:39]
Mitch
Yeah, right.
- [63:41]
Todd McShay
You let me slip that in behind quarterbacks.
- [63:44]
Mitch
It's just true. They're probably the first. But that's fine.
- [63:46]
Todd McShay
There's just not many human. There's. It's a small pool. And so every draft class we look at Five, six guys. We're like, those are the guys. And that's why I say stare at Ariante Ursary from. From Minnesota. I'm like, I get it. He's not a complete pro product yet, but he's six six, £330. You ran a 501, you know, so that can play into it with offensive lineman and interior defensive lineman, but with offensive linemen, they come off the board so damn fast that you find your. You find yourself reaching players that I have lower on the board than a lot of other position players. But I know if I don't get them here, I'll see you in 2026.
- [64:28]
Mitch
Right. I mean, to simplify it, it's like saying, why? Because of my team Draft Jaden Daniels or Drake May? It's like, well, because you weren't picking second or third the year those guys came out. Like, you have to go get them. And that's oversimplifying it because offensive linemen don't go that fast. But it's the same. Same church, different pew, right?
- [64:45]
Todd McShay
Yeah. Kyle on X what does Brock Bowers do so well that current draft prospects like Loveland and Warren can't do? What do they need to improve to get to his level? And is it even pos a possibility that they can. How far ahead of them was Bowers as a draft prospect?
- [65:07]
Mitch
Pretty. Pretty far, I guess. I mean, we had this discussion. I don't want to get into this because you're going to tell me they're not elite tight ends and we did all this before. I think Brock Bowers had. It wasn't used the same way, but every once in a while you would see like, he with him at the ball in his hands, he was as good as Tyler Warren, but more explosive with the ball in his hands. And Colson Loveland's really good at separating. Brock Bowers is that much better at separating. It's not that they don't have what he has, it's just that they're not at. They're not at the same level as him at what he does. And those are the two things that really jump out to me is one, he separates like no other tight end. I think I've evaluated Brock Bowers does and he is outrageously good with the ball in his hands. A little bit different than the way Warren does it. Warren's a little more power where Bowers is more explosive.
- [65:53]
Todd McShay
Warren's in the Gronk category. Loveland's in the Bowers Kelsey category. So it's hard to compare and contrast with, with Warren, with Bowers and Loveland. You can. And I agree with everything you've said. I do want to say this underutilized in terms of how he was used and I don't mean just like they didn't have a good quarterback this past year. I mean there's more in his tank in terms of what he can do in the NFL if, if deployed with, with routes, more routes down the field, all that. Same with Mason Taylor.
- [66:28]
Mitch
No one's talking about that enough. By the way. I mean Colson Loveland would. Same thing with Taylor. I mean that's what I love.
- [66:34]
Todd McShay
Drag route like.
- [66:36]
Mitch
Yes. Underneath stuff crossing h. Back release into the flat. It was, you know, same, same simple, simple, simple stuff. Yes.
- [66:44]
Todd McShay
So I'm excited to see both of those guys blossom in the NFL. I also think it's worth mentioning Loveland. I, I look it up and I'll have it for draft night. Either just turned 21 or he's turning 21 in the next month or so. He's a pup still.
- [67:00]
Mitch
Yeah.
- [67:02]
Todd McShay
I'm not saying he's going to be Brock Bowers, but I am telling you right now, I will be shocked. Stays healthy like all these guys. And he's had some right stuff. That's the big thing with Bowers. Can he stay healthy. But I will be shocked. He turned 21 last week. Thank you, Dan. I knew it was something recent. I just looked that up. Just turned 21 last week. Colson Loveland, I'll be shocked if he's not a like one of the top five, seven impact pass catching tight ends in the NFL. I think that highly of them. And I'm also hearing like if Warren goes seven, Loveland could go ten to Chicago.
- [67:36]
Mitch
Yeah. There's some Chicago fans mad at you. Good. Chicago fans don't want the tight end, man.
- [67:41]
Todd McShay
Okay, good.
- [67:44]
Mitch
I'd be, I'd be ecstatic if I were to get one of those too.
- [67:47]
Todd McShay
Call me in October.
- [67:49]
Mitch
Right. Exactly.
- [67:50]
Todd McShay
When your young quarterback who went through all the troubles he did last year, now has a coach that can cook up some schemes in the lab and utilize those two tight ends. And now we can be in 12 personnel and now we're a headache. Okay. Get out of here, Bears fans. I'm just playing now. I get it. I understand. I understand. I'll tell you, I'll tell you who will be pissed off. Colts fans.
- [68:16]
Mitch
Yeah. There'll be a 14. All of a sudden they thought they were getting one of them.
- [68:20]
Todd McShay
Yep. Marie. Thanks, Marie. I appreciate you. Subscribing we don't have many females. It's not because of Mench's looks, I can tell you that.
- [68:31]
Mitch
Here we go.
- [68:32]
Todd McShay
That beard. I see you, big boy. Which team do you think is most likely to trade back into, should trade up into the first round for a quarterback? There are three teams that I think are legitimately flying around the country in private jets with owners. Owners and general managers and head coaches and offensive coordinators and quarterback coaches right now. And they're creating scripts and they're figuring out who the receivers are going to be, and they're sending these quarterbacks not named Cam Ward installs, and they're testing their brain and they're taking them out to dinner. And then they're. They're having them come. Then they've already had them come to the facility. And it's a. A circus unlike anything I've ever seen in the NFL draft. Ten to 12 days out that it kind of started. And now here we are on this on the 18th, six days before the draft, and they're still flying around. That pilot for the Giants, man, he hasn't been home. He's not. He's got five days. He's not going to see his family because the Giants got to get one last look. They already saw Dart. Then it was Boulder for Shador. From Boulder, it's Tuscaloosa. For Milroe from Tuscaloosa, it's Louisville.
- [69:50]
Mitch
Who are the other two? Who are the other two teams? Let's go. I know.
- [69:54]
Todd McShay
So the Browns at 33, who have also had privates and workouts with all these guys, the Giants at 34 and the Saints at 40. And it's all going to be fascinating to see because I don't think a second quarterback goes in the top 10. I think we get to pick 10. And now it's like the phones are going to be buzzing trying to figure out if we are a Shador team, which I think those two teams will be. Cleveland and the Giants. Where do I have to move up to get them? And not only ahead of Pittsburgh at 21, the. Are the Giants going to do? How far do I have to go up? Are the Browns going to do? How far do we have to go? Like, so that's going to be fascinating. And then the Jackson Dart thing may start at 24, but it may be earlier, I don't know. And. And I think. I think New Orleans is intriguing there. So those are three teams. I will be actually surprised if one of those three teams does not move up to go get at least one of those two guys. And it won't surprise me at all if two of those teams move up. What will surprise me is if a third team moves up to like pick 31 Kansas City, 32 Philly. And I think those teams would be willing to move back, trust me, because they're getting the same player, a couple the next day as they would have gotten at 31 or 32 for Jaylen Milro, that one. Or, or Tyler Shuck, who's getting a lot of late love too. What do you think, Mitch?
- [71:21]
Mitch
The question was who's most likely. So you got, you went through the scenario.
- [71:27]
Todd McShay
New York Giants. The New York Giants, right. And then the Saints and then the Browns would be my answer. Sorry.
- [71:33]
Mitch
Am I crazy for this though? Doesn't it feel like the Saints might be the one who need to make the move more than any of these other teams? It feels like the Giants. It feels like the Giants are the most likely. But I also, I mean, I look at that Saints team and I'm thinking, I mean with the shoulder issues with Derek Carr, what am I missing? They, they, they. I think they're going to have to make a move. They got to get somebody and I think they'll end up trading back in. But again, I would agree with you. It seems like the Giants probably because the situation with the front office and the coaching staff. You are so right about this when you say it. Hope is great for a fan base man. Hope is great for an owner. You want to keep your job longer, bring in a young, talented quarterback and, and give them something you can hang your hat on. On in terms of just give me a year with this kid. Wait till you see what we can do next year. And I think that maybe because of that situation with the front office and the coaching staff that the Giants are.
- [72:24]
Todd McShay
Maybe the team premium subscriber of the McShay report. I'm going to blow you off right here. I'm warning you in advance. His question is it seems like quarterback is the only position where draft analysts discuss the value. Maybe waiting a year to hopefully be in position to draft someone like Arch Manning rather than reach for QB3 in a weaker draft class. Can you share what position groups may look strong in 2026 that would make teams reconsider reaches for those positions in 2020, 25. I have made it, made it a rule, Sam. I will not say a word or think about. I owe it to everyone in this audience. I owe it to myself. I owe it to my family. I owe it to Tate And Alair, my two children. I owe it to you, Mitch. I owe it to Dan and Mark and Connor and Tucker and everyone else we work with. I have to be fully committed to this draft. And I've sat there on the set the second night, not even in the third night sometimes with. With Kuiper asking me questions about next year's draft because he's already over this year. And I promised myself I would never be that guy. But I'm going to tell you this. Arch Manning I don't think is going to be in the draft until 2027. I think this is part of a plan that the Manning family has. Has sat back and, and they are in complete control. They were complete control of Eli's career. They recognize that money's not an issue for the Mannings, even if it was an issue for the Mannings. He's making more money than most rookie. Rookie player at Texas. So like the development and when he gets into the league so that he could be the next Manning. To do great things in the National Football League is the most important thing to them and they have the luxury for that to be the only thing that matters. And they are going to develop him as properly as he should be. And I think it's wonderful and I hope we don't see him until 2027 because I want to see the best version of architecture. Final question, Coach. Oh, but I also. I will also say this. The mock the way too early mock draft comes out. I. I'll let you know the exact date. I'm not focused on it now but it will come out shortly after this year's draft. Sam and I will. I will then answer all those questions for you. Final question, Coach Bruce. I love a good coach checking in on X. Yeah. Love this show and all the content I get access to for the next two years. Oh, you doubled down, you son of a gun. I like you, Coach. You're gonna let at you good Mensch talk this time. The McShay report is the real deal. I love it. Men.
- [74:58]
Mitch
Do you feel like got some great questions, man. I. I really do say it and, and you know, like Marissa said it a couple times.
- [75:07]
Todd McShay
My dog, right? Yeah. My sweet daughter Alaire. She asked me every time I'm going to do a show. Would you please let Mensch. I'm sorry this is gonna embarrass calls you Menchie. Everything's gonna have an E at the end. Will you please let Menchie talk today? You never let him talk, Dad. I don't think she's watched this show, but she's heard the comments.
- [75:32]
Mitch
Your job is a lot harder than mine, man. I don't know how you do it, how you juggle where we're gonna be in two topics and all that stuff so well.
- [75:40]
Todd McShay
We're having fun. That's all I know. And this is a blast. And this is our appreciation. Great questions. Please check that. Like, I'm not peddling it because I want subscribers and all that. It's not what I'm like. I. I'm in the midst of this Holland's opus. I'm getting off this. I'm gonna go grab a quick bite. Dan and I are gonna jump back on the phone like we're digging in. I'm gonna have a lot of fun with these AFC and NFC mailbags. Overwhelming, overwhelming response to the questions is what I said. And that's what we've gotten. And so we're. We're flushing it out. Hopefully we got to. Hopefully. Even if you didn't get your. Your question answered, you got a lot of answers on the show. This is it, man. This is it. Like, next time I see you. It's one week. Draft week. It's the week.
- [76:28]
Mitch
Yeah.
- [76:28]
Todd McShay
Sunday night. Mention I land. Mench is a busy, busy man. Maybe I grab them, maybe I can't. I'm going to unload. It's going to be a quick hitter. 25, 30 minutes. Here's what I'm hearing in the conversation. But we'll be on for an hour, then all week long, be beautiful Studios. Waving my arms. It's time to get out of here. I love you men. I love everyone who's taken the time to be a part of this thing. 100,000 people. We got to get 100k, man. Let's. Let's hit 100k together. Let's. Let's have a big first night of the draft. Live stream, YouTube and Spotify. And I can't wait for next week.
- [77:05]
Mitch
I can't wait to get to lady man.
- [77:08]
Todd McShay
Yeah. All right. Talk to you soon. Thank you.
- [77:12]
Mitch
See you, man.
- [77:13]
Todd McShay
Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18/ plus and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit RG D help dot com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit MD gambling help dot org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma dot org or call 1-800-327-5050. For 24 7, support and in Massachusetts, or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text hopeny in New.