Mel Kiper Jr. (4:44)

I hope people get that reference.

Todd McShay (4:46)

I hope so too. But, but I, I just, I, I thought it was fascinating that that comes out. And listen, it was scheduled in advance. It's not like they're like, hey, we, we just talked to the, to the Tennessee Titans and we're going to hang around another day. This isn't a surprise deal. This was scheduled.

Mel Kiper Jr. (5:03)

Right.

Todd McShay (5:04)

And Cam Ward obviously is going to accept and would probably will probably accept an offer to have a private workout. And what happens in these is you put in installs, you kind of, you get to get a sense of how quickly a quarterback can, can understand what you're trying to do. You run your route tree, you put in some of your concepts, you get an opportunity. Unlike at the pro day, which is scripted with his receivers and they've been working on this for a while. You get an opportunity to take him out of his comfort level, make him make throws that you're going to require in your offense. See the timing, the anticipation, how he's utilizing the terminology and the verbiage. Right. And all those things. So it's very common. Top quarterbacks do this with the teams that are, that have a chance or have shown interest. And if they're not in the range you think you're going to be drafted, they can trade up to that range. You know, Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, a lot of these guys have been traded up for. So it's not a surprise and it doesn't change anything. But I did think it was interesting coming off of that report and kind of the general understanding that, that Tennessee is closing in on, on Cam Ward. Any thoughts to that?

Mel Kiper Jr. (6:09)

I mean, it's just again, I, I see it as due diligence now. If something happens, we'll look back at this and say, wow, there was really something there. I think you still go and look. I mean, they're going to have to give up, I think a lot to go get him. I think it's only one pick, but I don't think you're. It's going to be a lot to go get him because it sounds like the Titans are in love with the player now. Is that a smoke screen? Is, Are the Titans really just trying to drive the V value up again? It's, it's that time of year, right. Like we're going to hear all these kinds of things. Sounds to me, look, we're going to get into what we think of Cam Ward as a player. And if they view him the same way that we view him, then I think the Tennessee Titans are taking Cam Ward and the Cleveland Browns are doing their due diligence in case something happens or they decide that they like him so much that they're going to make a Ricky Williams type deal, which, by the way, would be. That would be crazy. That's a lot to give up.

Todd McShay (7:04)

Yeah, I do think. I think sometimes we have to take a step back from all the noise and go back to our evaluation. Cam Ward's a damn good quarterback. Cam Ward has the traits, if developed properly, to be a really good starting quarterback in the NFL. Cam Ward is not Caleb Williams coming out of usc. He's not Jaden Daniels coming out of lsu. He's not Drake May coming out of North Carolina. Okay. So you can love. It can be two things we talk about this a lot. Like both things can be true. You can really, really like him and fall in love with him, but also stay rational and say, well, we don't. He's not those three guys from a year ago. And so if someone were to offer something outrageous, of course we're going to listen.

Mel Kiper Jr. (7:53)

Right.

Todd McShay (7:54)

Whereas I think a year ago wouldn't have mattered, the Chicago Bears, what you offered, it wouldn't have mattered. Right. For the Washington Commanders, what you would have offered it to, it wouldn't have mattered. For the Patriots at three, I don't think.

Mel Kiper Jr. (8:07)

Right.

Todd McShay (8:08)

That's the conviction. And I'm not. I don't know what their conviction level is. Okay. And only a few people in that building actually know at this point.

Mel Kiper Jr. (8:17)

Right.

Todd McShay (8:18)

But it seems like they're closing in on a decision. And that part's interesting to me.

Mel Kiper Jr. (8:21)

Can I tell you something else that, that drives me crazy is when, when fans start to talk about their teams waiting to next year to get a different quarterback, you know, the next year's class is going to be so much better. And the year after that's going to be so good. And listen, we don't know. I can't tell you this enough.

Todd McShay (8:37)

Cam. Cam Ward came. I want to remind everyone.

Mel Kiper Jr. (8:40)

Great. Where was James a year before?

Todd McShay (8:43)

Where was he? Third, fourth round? Cam Ward was coming out in this, in the 2024 draft. Right, right. Cam Ward, too. Cam Ward told Cristobal, the head coach, Mario Cristobal Ball said, I'm actually, I'm going, I'm leaving for the NFL draft. Then he got. From the, from the committee. The committee came back and I, I'll keep reminding people, I don't expect everyone to know this. The committee, that it's, you know, people who are qualified, who have been NFL scouts, who've evaluated, they put together a committee, which is, I think, is wonderful for the underclassman to give them a committee that they can submit their name and say, where would I be drafted based off of what you know and kind of your contacts within the league. And what the committee does is they return that after a period of time of watching the tape and talking to people in the league, and they say, first round grade, second round grade, or go back to school. Those are the only three options you'll get from the committee. No details beyond that. He got to get back to school.

Mel Kiper Jr. (9:47)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (9:48)

And so we did. And he was wise. And you know what? He's going to be 30 plus million dollars richer for one more year. And whatever nil money he made At Miami last year.

Mel Kiper Jr. (9:58)

Yeah, there's, there's also the flip side of that though, where players that come into the year who you have a very high grade on, or not you specifically, anyone has a high grade on a team may have a high grade on, doesn't do as well as expected or doesn't decide to come out, decides to go back, trying to. And by the way, hopefully you're not picking this early again. So trying to predict where a quarterback class is going to be a year or two from now is a very difficult thing and I think it's dangerous. And the second aspect of that is hopefully you're not picking early enough to get a good quarterback. So it's going to be tough for Tennessee to pass on Cam Ward. All that's what I'm saying.

Todd McShay (10:32)

All right, all good points, all interesting. Let's get to what's really happened and how it potentially could affect the draft. And it's not even like I, I don't like the, well, this move happened. They're, they're not. There's reasons why organizations make moves. So I like to analytically think about it, have a little bit of time like we took today, make a few calls, make sure I'm, I'm in. I'm not missing anything. There's no blind spots. So after signing Jamus Winston shortly thereafter, the New York Giants yesterday, on Tuesday, sign Russell Wilson. It's worth noting that the New York Giants now have two very, very experienced quarterbacks. Yes, on the, on the back nine, you know, closing in on the clubhouse of their careers. But they have all that experience, experience for $15 million. And you go look at these 40, 50, 60, 70 million dollar a year contracts being given out to quarterbacks now, and you're like, okay, that makes sense. It's nothing. It's a drop of a hat. It's you throwing, you know, down a 20 bill because you were hungry in between meals and went to a diner. You're gonna get yelled at when you get home. Right. I mean that for, for an organization, that's what this is, comparatively speaking, at that position. Okay. So there are a few different angles that I want to get to, but I think it's important to start out with what I do, do know. Okay. And what I have to believe as a, is kind of the, the backlash of all this. Okay. What I do know is that the Tennessee Titans are not going out and getting involved with the Matthew Stafford sweepstakes. Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, potential trade after the first night of the draft. He said he, he. He will not waive his no trade clause until after the first night of the draft. So they haven't, not only have they not been involved, there hasn't even been a rumor or speculation of involvement in any of those veteran quarterbacks. Why? Because we all believe that they're taking Cam Ward with the number one overall pick. And it also, it's a reminder to me, like, it seems real simple, but all of these teams are going out and plugging in these veterans and you're still hearing report. Even the New York jets brought in Justin Fields, but they could still draft a quarterback at seven. Maybe they won't. Maybe they'll trade up into the late first. It leaves that window open of drafting a quarterback because it's, it's the best deal in sports. A rookie contract on a quarterback is the best deal in sports. Right. Okay, so we're all in agreement of that. Tennessee has not brought in a veteran because in their minds, they don't care about the other quarterbacks necessarily, once they've decided, once they decide Cam Ward's their guy. But I think some teams. And we'll get to this in a little bit. I've come to the realization maybe there's only one quarterback in this draft that I, I believe is ready to start in week one next season. So bringing in a veteran, spending that money, allocating that money on a veteran quarterback, when we could be utilizing that money on other positions like our offensive line that we loaded up on in free agency, it lines up okay. So Tennessee at 1, assuming it does not move out and takes Cam Ward has got their day, one starter and who, hopefully for that organization, their future starter. Right? Let's look at the possibility for the Giants. Now. What are those possibilities? What are they thinking? What. What's the mindset? Because they're in a weird spot, right? Like Cleveland, Cleveland sitting at 2. And if they can't get up to 1, it's their decision, nobody else's, whether they want to take Shador Sanders or take the best players in this draft.

Mel Kiper Jr. (14:32)

Right?

Todd McShay (14:32)

Abdul Carter, Travis Hunter. Okay, The Giants aren't in that situation. So the Giants have to look at it differently than, than these other two organizations. They've got to evaluate the quarterbacks, but then they've got to also get the information like, is anyone going to be available to us or which one will there be all of that.

Mel Kiper Jr. (14:52)

Right?

Todd McShay (14:52)

So I'm. So I'm looking at it. Right. Mentioned. There's a few things I want to get to. Few possibilities, a few, few angles that I'm looking at when I'm, I'm evaluating what the, the Giants are thinking. And this is from experience, taking some time to analyze the whole thing and some phone calls I made.

Mel Kiper Jr. (15:08)

Okay.

Todd McShay (15:09)

The fir. The first we have to examine is maybe there's increased information or an increased level of concern if you're the Giants. If you do want Shador, if you do think he's worth the number three overall pick, that both these quarterbacks are going to be gone at number two at number three.

Mel Kiper Jr. (15:29)

Right?

Todd McShay (15:29)

Maybe, maybe, maybe Cam Ward goes one to Tennessee and maybe the Cleveland Browns select Shador Sanders, Colorado, with the number two pick in the 2025 NFL Draft. Right? That's a possibility. Then you're sitting there at number three and you've, you've got the, the wonderful choice between, still a difficult choice between Abdul Carter, pass rusher, and Travis Hunter, the wide receiver, cornerback. And we will revisit that in a little bit. So that's possibility number one. You don't even get the opportunity to decide whether you want short order to be your guy or not.

Mel Kiper Jr. (16:06)

Right. And then you're thinking Travis Hunter or Abdul Carter at that point, right?

Todd McShay (16:10)

Absolutely. No question about it. No question. I. And I think, I think for Cleveland it's, it's Abdul Carter. I think for the Giants it would be a little tougher decision given Kayvon Thibodeau, Brian Burns, but still the most important position outside of quarterback. And now we get this generational talent who could help us on both sides of the ball. It's a tougher call if they're, if they're staring at both of these guys, quarterbacks off the table. It's a tougher decision. But we'll get back to that.

Mel Kiper Jr. (16:41)

Okay?

Todd McShay (16:42)

Possibility two, scenario two, if you will. I don't have inside information on this and I'll just be up front. Okay? But I don't think, and I talked about this on Monday, bud. I don't think it's. I don't think it's a coincidence. I've been around this too much. I've been to 150 pro days. It's not a coincidence that this move happened just after Joe Shane, the general manager for the New York Giants, along with Mike Borgonzi, the general manager of the Tennessee Titans. And that entire power broken group from the Titans was there.

Mel Kiper Jr. (17:23)

Right.

Todd McShay (17:23)

They're all there in South Florida for the workout for Cam Ward and for Miami's pro day. I don't think it's a coincidence that this all happened that. Okay, that specifically, that Russell Wilson was signed within hours, not days. Hours after the. After leaving that workout. Okay, So I don't know if it was casual or formal discussions, if it was insinuations, what it was, but I have to believe, based off of experience, some phone calls, everything else, the timing of it lines up right.

Mel Kiper Jr. (18:00)

Okay, what does it mean? Tell me what it means.

Todd McShay (18:10)

It means that they know that the Tennessee Titans aren't moving out of that number one spot.

Mel Kiper Jr. (18:16)

Okay.

Todd McShay (18:17)

That a. Hey, hey, hey, Mike. Is there anything that it would. Would take. Where are you guys? Let us know so we can. Let us know so we can move on. Professional courtesy. Let us know so we can move on with it. We're now waiting. Aaron Rodgers is most likely going to Pittsburgh. Cleveland doesn't have a quarterback. Don't make us.

Mel Kiper Jr. (18:37)

Dominoes are falling.

Todd McShay (18:39)

Don't make us the team at the end of the song without a chair to sit in. Right, Right.

Mel Kiper Jr. (18:44)

And to be clear, you don't know that. No one's told you this.

Todd McShay (18:47)

I've made it perfectly clear. This is what makes. I've been around this game too long to not think, to kind of know without knowing.

Mel Kiper Jr. (18:56)

Right.

Todd McShay (18:57)

That a hint, an insinuation, a formal and informal conversation, casual as it could have been. Yeah, I think. I think. Or honest to God, just talking to them and seeing them, like, looks good, you know?

Mel Kiper Jr. (19:12)

Yeah. Right? Yeah.

Todd McShay (19:14)

Whatever it is, they got the. Joe Shane, the general manager for the New York Giants, had to have gotten this strong feeling. And there's also reports, you know, coming out and people are talking, and so, like, how. Wherever and however he received that information, I think it became perfectly clear he went to the dance, was hoping to dance with the girl. It became very clear that that girl had her eyes on somebody else. And, like, now. Now, you know, pick up the pieces and move on. Okay.

Mel Kiper Jr. (19:40)

The writing's on the wall.

Todd McShay (19:42)

And it's a feeling that the Giants have gotten kind of unfortunately, used to the last couple of years. Last year's draft, the year before free agency, Matthew Stafford. It is not. This has not gone as planned. Okay, so here's the thing. If the Giants. And. And I think. Why do we know this? Because if the Giants were holding out hope that they could move up and get Ward, it seems like Cleveland maybe is still holding out a little bit of that hope for some reason, because they sent Jim Jimmy or Jimmy Haslam, sent himself his private jet and brought along Andrew Barry, the general manager, with him to South Florida and. And not because the weather's great this time of year, and it's nice to get out of Cleveland. It's because they they still in their mind think there's some slimmer, you know, glimmer of hope. I should say sliver glimmer hope. There's still a little bit of hope. The Giants I don't think do. Because if not the, the QB room would be if. Yeah if they in their minds the QB room would be Cam Ward, Jameis Winston and Tommy DeVito. Right.

Mel Kiper Jr. (20:50)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (20:51)

We. If we are. If we're able to give away what we got to give away to go up and get Cam Ward, we're not going to go spend. Even if it's, you know, pennies on the dollar for a quarterback and what it costs us this day and age. We're not going to bring in the the rush show. If if we think we got a chance to Cam work right. And maybe we would anyway. But. But they, they know now that it's not going to be Ward that you don't do it. If the. If the room's going to be Cam Ward, Russell Wilson. And there's also has to be a little assurance too to, to Russell Wilson, but Cam Ward, Russell Wilson, Jameis Winston and Tommy DeVito.

Mel Kiper Jr. (21:31)

Right.

Todd McShay (21:31)

Not the DeVito, you know, anyway. But again hours, not days after that pro day, they. They leave South Florida and the Giants promptly sign Russ. So in that scenario, right. This is the scenario of. In my opinion, my. The scenario of it's no chance we get up to one. Cam Ward's a Tennessee Titan.

Mel Kiper Jr. (21:59)

Yep.

Todd McShay (22:00)

Cleveland at number two. We're hearing things it's can't. And I have heard some of this not from Cleveland, but I've heard some of this and I should remind everyone too. Andrew Barry's great at this. Andrew Barry like is notorious in the league and his is the inner circle is very tight information does not get out that. That winds up being accurate when we look back on it. Yeah.

Mel Kiper Jr. (22:24)

That they don't want to get out.

Todd McShay (22:26)

That they don't want to get out. Right. So in this scenario, the the Giants. Cam Ward's off the table. The Browns are not going quarterback.

Mel Kiper Jr. (22:36)

Here we go.

Todd McShay (22:37)

Unless. Unless it's Cam or Jimmy's here. Andrew Berry's here. They're going to work them out tomorrow. But. But I'm. My intel is and I'm. I'm speaking as. As if I'm the Giants, but I've heard some of the same intel and I'm not sure if it's real or not that the Cleveland could go in a different direction. So now we Got. Now we got a tough decision because we did. Because we just signed Russell Wilson. We've got Jameis Winston and we've got Tommy DeVito. So Shador sitting there at three. What this indicates. And I started this whole thing with like, what is. What did these things indicate? The timing of the signing indicated that to me this indicates very clearly that there's one quarterback in this class that teams are looking at and saying, yeah, he could be the day one starter. I don't need to bring in a veteran. And now the Ward is up. Now the Ward is off the table for the Giants. Everyone from Shador to Jackson Dart to Tyler Schuck to Will Howard, Jalen Milro, Quinn Ewers, the list goes on. None of them is our. Is a, is a, is it at the level or is prepared enough or is it there in his development for us to win games this year? Okay. Okay. So Shador at three then becomes. Let's bring him in one year, deal with Russ. Let him learn. Put him in when he's ready. If we remember, Russell Wilson was playing at a really high level offense, was humming early on for the Steelers and then after about week 10, it went right, right. And I think, and I want to remind everyone of this and it's not a, it's not a kept secret here. Joe and Brian Enter the 2025 season as, as general manager and head coach respectively of the New York Giants and are. Are have the most pressure of any GM head coach tandem in the league to win. They do. And so, so signing Russell, signing Russell Wilson and Jamus Winston help them, helps them win games. Now drafting Shador, if, if you're in the camp of. I think, I still think that they're, they're drafting Shador at 3. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm, I'm, I'm. What better way to not only win more games now and keep fans a little bit happier than they've been, but then also have this, this beautiful gift that you're dangling off in the background with Shador Sanders in New York City and the Mara family loving the. They want prime time games. They want to be, you know, a little bit of like the Jerry Jones thing. Very important to them that they're a factor that they're talked about and seen. So that's a strong possibility. That possibility number two is that should do or they think Cleveland's not taking him. Shador is there at number three. We sign Russ to win games. Now we bring in Shador to keep promise and Hope and excitement for the. For not only the mayor of family that's going to decide our employment in 2025, 2026, but also for our fan base and everything that goes into that. Right? So that's that third possibility. And this is where I. This is where we get to work, you and I.

Mel Kiper Jr. (26:09)

Okay.

Todd McShay (26:09)

Third possibility is that Shador is available at number three. Giants just don't want them. And it's not because they don't think Shador can be good in the future. The Giants are looking at this. This is what. This is the option that I would recommend to Joe. And Brian Shedeur is there at three. He's a really good player. Got a chance to develop into a really good starter in the NFL. But if you're going to do what's best for this organization and you have a head coach who can develop quarterbacks, there's a couple other guys that the grades aren't that far off on. And I can do it with Abdul Carter or with Travis Hunter. Do you understand what I'm saying? This is what I would recommend to them. I like Shador a lot, but I. We'll get into our tier rankings and our grades, and I. I might be on an island. I've got the same. I've got identical grades on Shador, Sanders and Jackson D. And I'll. That's.

Mel Kiper Jr. (27:12)

I think I. I think I do, too, actually. I got to check that, but I think I do, too.

Todd McShay (27:15)

That's a little primer as we get into the position group series today. And again, thank you, everyone who's watching, we appreciate your support. Please click download. Mensch does it better than me. We don't have time for it today. You know what to do. We gotta. We gotta subscribe. Keep it going. We're coming up on the. On the draft. And then tomorrow, by the way, on Thursday, the McShay report comes out. Please, you got to get involved now. Like, we got a lot of news. I'm going even more in detail in all of this stuff and. And a lot of other information and a deep dive in these quarterbacks and evaluations. It's not like the old days of Insider where you get every one of our evaluation for all. Like, this is the only place you can get these evaluations. And I promise you, I poured. Not that I need to sit here and beg and explain, but I poured into these things and some kind of. Some fun. Different angles to all these quarterbacks. But this is my recommendation to. To Joe Shane and to Brian D. Okay. Hit the. Google it, McShay. Report. Subscribe. Four bucks this year. 36. Double down for the double. Yes. Why wouldn't you mention and Brian knows quarterbacks, man. Talk to him. I have a great appreciation for. If you don't think this could be for the New York Giants, this could be the Nick Casario heist. Do you remember Nick Casario? It's like, what's he going to do? The organization wants this. They want the shiny toy. They want the quarterback, C.J. stroud. But the grades tell us you got to draft Will Anderson. Nick's like, I'll get both of them. How about that? Shut everyone up. He was on the hot. Yeah, he did. But the Giants pick at at three. But they also pick at 34. Second. Second pick in the, in the second round. I'm not saying it's the same deal. I, I, it's not a perfect comparison. But what's to say that the New York Giants couldn't sit at 3 and if Abdul Carter goes to they get Travis Hunter. Generational talent, could be a future hall of Famer. He does something no one's ever done. Could help you on both sides of the ball. You get that guy and then you get to work. If you're Joe Shane, he's always on his phone. You ever been in the Senior bowl combine? I don't think I've seen a man on his phone more than him. So he's, I'm sure he's made the calls and I'm sure he's already started to talk to teams about what would it take to move up to and I would here's my other recommendation. Not that they would ask. I have conversations but they're not going to ask me what to do. My recommendation would be you got five picks in the top 105, find a way with this year's compensation. Maybe mix in a second round pick next year. Whatever it takes. Get, find, figure out where Dart's going to go. And go take Jackson Dart and we'll get into the quarterbacks and I love Tyler Schuck and I think he could be the steal from this year's class. There is a difference between the two. I'm done with the tape evaluations I've done. I'm done with the phone calls and talking to people in terms of the background and I love them both. And we'll get into the specifics of all that. There's a difference between the two.

Mel Kiper Jr. (30:30)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (30:31)

Okay.

Mel Kiper Jr. (30:31)

I agree. I have feelings about your scenarios but.

Todd McShay (30:37)

And I'll let you jump in after this and there's more I want to get to. I want you to think about this with the Giants need offensive line. I mean they plugged some cornerback stuff. Paulson to Debo. They brought back Slayton. But they don't have special. They don't.

Mel Kiper Jr. (30:57)

They're missing stop you from getting Travis Hunter. That does that.

Todd McShay (31:00)

That can't. No, no, no, no. I'm talking. I'm talking about combo picks. I'm. I'm telling you with their needs. What I think their needs get skewed because we're talking Abdul Carter or Travis Hunter. It's really not positions of. Of desperate need.

Mel Kiper Jr. (31:13)

Right.

Todd McShay (31:14)

If. If they're to go and you don't draft for need. But it's more likely that they draft an offensive tackle and with that 35th, 34th pick right. Than it is go get another edge rusher unless one falls to him and then you're in love with them. My point is this. If I tell you, you get Shador Sanders and let's say Josh Connerly offensive tackle. We both really like could go late first. Maybe he slips a couple spots in the second round. You can get Shador Sanders or Josh Connerly or if you have a similar grade to me, you get the same graded player in Jackson Dart. Even if you don't. Even if it's a little bit of a gap between them. You get Jackson Dart with Travis Hunter.

Mel Kiper Jr. (31:55)

What do you take Jackson Dart and.

Todd McShay (31:57)

Travis Hunter and like no brainer, right?

Mel Kiper Jr. (32:01)

No, but it's. This is my. These are. These are part of my feelings. I think it's too good to be true. Let's talk about it. That, that scenario. You. Where do you have. Let's get into. Where do you think you have to trade up to make sure you get Jackson Dart.

Todd McShay (32:18)

Good point. Early.

Mel Kiper Jr. (32:20)

It's going to be early.

Todd McShay (32:21)

Yeah, he's going. Quite honestly. Quite honestly might be Jacksonville at 6 if I'm. But I. But I don't know that it is and that's where Joe Shane's going to have to rely on. On intel and relationships and find out is it serious that the jets could still take a quarterback at 7, Jackson Darth. Because I don't know the necessarily I. The jets like Jackson Dart. There's people in the building. There's. There's like there's. But I don't think it's at 7. I think. I think there's several teams that are like where can I go get them? I don't think you got to move to six. If the Saints take him at. At nine, you're like, fine. But I think then if they. If he gets to 10.

Mel Kiper Jr. (33:08)

Well, hold on. You're not fine. Then you. You've lost your. That's the second piece of the puzzle. So you're not fine. Right.

Todd McShay (33:15)

You're not fine. You're not fine. But. But I also like Tyler Shuck a whole hell of a lot.

Mel Kiper Jr. (33:20)

I do, too. So you're saying the plan is to get Jackson Dart. If you end up with Tyler Shuck and Travis Hunter, we're okay. No panic in the building. We're going to be all right. That's still.

Todd McShay (33:31)

If I wind up with Travis Hunter and Jackson Dart, because I. I found out I got the proper intel and I'm Joe Shane, I'm on my phone all the damn time, people in the league will at least get a chuckle out of that.

Mel Kiper Jr. (33:50)

You're okay with it?

Todd McShay (33:51)

I wind up getting. If I wind up getting Jackson Dart, it's an absolute grand slam. Right.

Mel Kiper Jr. (33:56)

But if you end up getting Tyler Shuck, are you okay with it?

Todd McShay (33:59)

Yeah.

Mel Kiper Jr. (34:00)

Okay.

Todd McShay (34:01)

Even if you have. Because I got Travis, I got Travis Hunter, and I probably don't have to move up to shuck it if I get a little nervous at the end. I want to get that fifth year option. Yeah. I move up to 29, 30, 31, 32, something like that. So I'll say this to prevent conversations happening the night overnight, but remember, in this scenario, Cleveland passed on. On Shador, and you passed on Shador.

Mel Kiper Jr. (34:27)

So Shador's still out there.

Todd McShay (34:29)

So maybe. You know what I mean.

Mel Kiper Jr. (34:32)

So a couple things here. I think signing Wilson and Winston allows you to take the swing that you want to take. Because now you're in a position if this falls apart or doesn't go exactly the way you want it to go, you're still okay. So you can take the swing. I get that. So I like that. Here's something that's really kind of scaring me about Shador with the way you're talking and we didn't, you know, you'd mentioned this before. We hadn't really talked about it. Shador's. Correct me if I'm wrong. We're getting into traits later on. I wanted to say that, like, one of, if not his greatest strengths is the way he processes. Right. He processes really well.

Todd McShay (35:05)

Unbelievably well.

Mel Kiper Jr. (35:06)

So here's what I'm worried about. That sounds when I hear a quarterback process as well. He's accurate. Short to intermediate. He's played. Started for two seasons in Colorado, one at Jackson State. He's not NFL ready. Like, if he's not NFL ready, if he's not a guy that you think can start early. A little concerned. I'm a little concerned. Like what? I guess we'll get into this a little bit later.

Todd McShay (35:29)

Yeah, we can.

Mel Kiper Jr. (35:30)

So I'm a little bit concerned now. And if. If that's what the Giants feel, too, then maybe he is. Maybe.

Todd McShay (35:37)

But you got to remember the Giants, first of all, that that offense was kind of. I don't want to say remedial, but it was frustrating. Let's just leave it at that.

Mel Kiper Jr. (35:44)

Okay?

Todd McShay (35:44)

So when you watch that offense, you think like, we. There's.

Mel Kiper Jr. (35:46)

That is true. I agree with you.

Todd McShay (35:48)

His football intelligence is like, I have no question. He's. He's going to quickly, very quickly pick things up and be ready to. But there. But there's going to be a little bit. A little bit of a curve. There are. With all these guys, but there's going to be a little bit of a curve. Right. And a lot of his stuff was like, chaos. Like just watching his tape. So much chaos, man.

Mel Kiper Jr. (36:08)

So, yeah, we'll get into this later. I will say this. There is just a lot of moving pieces. I like taking the swing. Swing. Take the swing, man. Go for it. Be aggressive. You're in this. You're in the position where you may not have the job next year if you don't. If you don't make something big happen here. So take the swing. Take Travis Hunter and then try to get Jackson dart. Do your damnedness to make that happen. Be aggressive. You know, if you. If you lose your job because this doesn't work out, you don't go back and say, well, I try to play it safe. You go back and say, I did everything in my power to make this happen. And if it. If we get it and it works, then. Then it's great. If. But if we don't or it doesn't work, then, you know, at least you can say, I. I made the right move. I was aggressive.

Todd McShay (36:50)

The Giants now don't have to make a desperate pick at the top of the draft, right?

Mel Kiper Jr. (36:54)

They don't.

Todd McShay (36:54)

If their draft grade does not line up with Shador going at number three and they can't stomach passing on to Travis Hunter or an Abdul Carter, they now are in position where they do not have to make a desperate position. That's the most important thing that comes out of this. They've put themselves in a good spot. Okay? They've got a hunt. They've got five picks in the top 105. They don't have to make a desperate pick at three. That's like that. If we bottom line it, that's where they now are. Okay.

Mel Kiper Jr. (37:20)

Agree.

Todd McShay (37:21)

Two more things I think you need to take in consideration with all of this. And I'll leave. I'll leave it at these final two things.

Mel Kiper Jr. (37:26)

Okay.

Todd McShay (37:27)

The first is and. And it's. And it's part of why my recommendation to Joe and Brian is pass it. Three, take the best player. If it's not the best player in the draft, it's the second best player in the draft. It's two elite guys. Take one of them. It's just a smart football decision. If you don't have a grade, that's like. And I think the worst. The football world is saying, Cam could be a starter day one. The rest of these guys excited about a few of them, but not sure. Like, it's right now. Instant impact. We're ready to. We're not. I think there's a sense that we're not going to get. And the Giants just told us. The Giants flat out just told us, Mench, by signing Russell Wilson, that they don't think that this. This is the next CJ Stroud or Jaden Daniels that second quarterback taken. I'm not saying they're. They're looking at it like doomsday, but I want to.

Mel Kiper Jr. (38:23)

I want to remind stuff.

Todd McShay (38:25)

I want to remind people of these two things. Go back just a few years ago. What was it, 2021? Trevor Lawrence was sitting at 1. Okay. Everyone loved Trevor Lawrence. There was some intrigue. These other guys are really good. But all of a sudden, we knew at the time they're getting pushed up the board. Zach Wilson goes two to the Jets. Trey Lance goes three. Justin Fields goes 11 to the 49ers and Bears, respectively. And then the Patriots at 15. Draft. Mac Jones, who we kind of thought was going to San Francisco earlier. How did that work out?

Mel Kiper Jr. (39:07)

It's. It has to be great. It didn't go that well.

Todd McShay (39:10)

More applicable to this. Go back to 2011. I know we're going back a while, but, like, you got to learn from history. Okay? Cam. Cam Newton's the number one overall pick. Then we're like, huh, Are these other guys. I didn't like Jake Locker. Kind of like Bortles thought it was through too Rich. Where Bortles went, Locker goes.

Mel Kiper Jr. (39:32)

You mean Gab.

Todd McShay (39:33)

You mean G. Yeah, yeah. Blaine Gabbert. Sorry. Blaine Gabbert. Jake Locker goes 8. Blaine Gabbert goes 10. Christian Ponder went 12. There was a patient team that kind of sat back, had quarterbackers at the end of there and then. And saw him fall at 35 overall. Andy Dalton goes.

Mel Kiper Jr. (39:53)

Kaepernick a pick later. Yeah.

Todd McShay (39:55)

Okay. Yes. Right.

Mel Kiper Jr. (39:58)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (40:02)

Just a little warning. It's my. My warning to the New York Giants. Get. Get what you can get. Get the secure. Get the. Get what you know is going to be great. You can say. You can say injury for all 256 players who are going to be drafted, all 333 of them that were at the combine. You can say, well, if he gets injured, yes, take injury out of it. The two players that have the best potential to be superstars in the NFL in this year's class, Abdul Carter and Travis Hunter. If you can get one of them, get them. And maybe you'll have Andy Dalton and not Jake Locker.

Mel Kiper Jr. (40:42)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (40:42)

Blaine Gabbard. Okay. That would be my advice. The last thing I'll leave you with. Ain't none of this matter, men. If the guy who writes the checks and owns the thing.

Mel Kiper Jr. (40:55)

Right.

Todd McShay (40:56)

If the mayor of family, which is obsessed, and this is why I brought it up earlier, and I'm circling back and finishing.

Mel Kiper Jr. (41:02)

Yes.

Todd McShay (41:02)

With this. Because we can make all the football decisions we want. We can grade the players, stack the board, have the vertical board, the horizontal board. We can have scouts and. And psycho psychologists and medical teams and super scouts and then super scouts, bosses, the. The, you know, the. The college coordinators. We can have the personnel director. We can have the General Manager with 150 years of combined experience all say, we got to take Abdul or we got to take Travis Hunter at 3. And one guy can walk in that room and say, we're taking Shador. He's going to sell tickets. The jersey sales are going to be out of this world. New York City, big lights. We're going to get. On Monday night, we're going to get some primetime games. I don't care what you say. We're taking Shador. So that would put an end to it.

Mel Kiper Jr. (42:01)

Yeah, it's good to be king news for you.

Todd McShay (42:06)

Coach Prime's probably talking to the guy who's making that decision and not the guy who has to get clearance to make the decision.

Mel Kiper Jr. (42:14)

Right? Yeah. Good luck. Draft and Shador are not playing them in New York, by the way. Can you imagine if Russell Wilson starts 0 and 2 if they. I mean, even if he plays. All right, they start owing to. Can you imagine trying to keep Shador on the bench in that market?

Todd McShay (42:30)

Everyone has a plan to develop the rookie Quarterback.

Mel Kiper Jr. (42:34)

Right until the plan goes out flying. Yeah.

Todd McShay (42:36)

Yes. Yeah. I mean Drake May was. Was never going to play this year, right? This episode is brought to you by Walmart. Life gets busy. We could all use an extra hour or save one. With Walmart Express delivery. You can do just that. Simply place your order and in as fast as an hour, it's at your door. Use promo code Express for free delivery on your first order. No hassle, no stress, just more time for what matters most to you. Visit walmart.com to order now. Promotion valid for First Express delivery. Order $50 minimum. Subject to availability restrictions apply. Tuck, let's throw up the tears. Let's just dive into this thing. Quarterbacks today it's not. We don't have two positions. The tight ends and wide receivers went on forever. We don't have to go on forever today. Here's my quarterback tears. I'm breaking it here and if you don't see it here, it's in the McShay Report tomorrow with a lot of in detail like in depth stuff. Man, I'm actually, you know what you want the God's honest truth. I'm so proud of it. Like it's, you know, when you put in that much work, I feel great about it and I hope people enjoy it and appreciate it. Google the McShay Report and you can, you can get more in detail stuff there on all these quarterbacks but we're going to dive in now take a look at this. Tier one elite prospects should be day one starters. Project as future all pro caliber players. Got none of them in this class. Caleb William and and purposely brought in last year's phenomenal class. And all the names that came off the board including six in the first 12 picks broke a record. Caleb Williams, Jaden Daniels, Drake. May you see the 96, 96, 95. It was that tight. Caleb and Jaden, identical grades. I didn't have the Kuyans the onions mensch to put him up ahead of Caleb and we'll see. We'll see one time. You know Caleb certainly is in a position now with Ben Johnson. The moves they moves they've made to succeed. If it doesn't work now, it was never going to work. Tier 2 Interesting one JJ McCarthy. We have nothing to go off of to say that was a great decision or a poor decision. It was a great grade Todd or it was a terrible grade Todd. But I've got him and Cam Ward right there at 92s I should mention and I wrote up these things and I've had them for 22 years, I think. And I keep tweaking them a little bit because I think it's important. Our grading system was very similar. I always call it the Raven system, like the 6.1, the 6.3, you know. And a lot of teams in the league utilize that. They don't grade of 6.3 is equivalent to a late first round. They grade off of what's the player going to be. And we had that Gary Horton who started us in the this business. My mentor was, you know, men's. Worked with him for, for many, many a year. Helped both of us get into this. And God, you know, God rest his soul, just. Just lost Gary in the last couple years and miss him. But Gary worked in the league. Gary worked for Bill Belichick. Gary worked at the Cleveland Browns, he worked for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. He worked in college football for a long time. When he started this the war room back in the day, which eventually we were. We had 16 NFL teams that were clients. Then the Sporting News came in and gave us a media contract because we realized we couldn't pay bills with just those 16 NFL teams paying us some scratch. And then it went from Sporting News to espn. And then when we got to espn, our grading system which was similar to that of I call the Ravens because our guys with the Ravens, you know, dacosta we joked about it. You know, it's like he. All of all of my friends, all my friends in the league when I was first starting out in this business were with the Ravens. Phil Savage, Joe Douglas. We played college ball with Andy Whitel. Got to know him through Joe hired Kevin because of Andy Whitele in my relationship. And Kevin now is, is with the Ravens. Dejuan Jones is our wide receiver. 7 11, always open. Love the man. He worked, he's worked all over the league, worked with the Ravens like so like I very familiar with that system. And that system's all about the. What he can be at the next level. Okay.

Mel Kiper Jr. (46:58)

Right.

Todd McShay (46:59)

And so it's not. But when we got to ESPN they said well, we want out of 100. I think it's relatable for fans stance. And so we had to adjust it and that's why we're the 90s. Equate to first round, but within there there are tears and then the 80s equate to second round but there are tears within the 80s and 70s and so on and so forth. Okay. So you look at those tiers and you see off the top there's no one in that elite tier. But in that second tier is Cam Ward. Throw it back up for a second, Tucker. For those who aren't watching, I want to be able to read exactly what we've written. Tier 3 immediate immediate contributors who should quickly develop into starting caliber players considered quality values in the bottom half of round one in any given draft class. That's the grade I had on Michael Pennix Jr. But he's a quarterback, he gets pushed up. The immediate contributors part is, is more so for all the other positions you find a way, whether it's nickel corner or third receiver and eventually should elevate into a good starting player. But for quarterbacks it's yeah, we know you're going to be the starter eventually. That's what we're banking on. But right now it's time to sit and watch and, and, but eventually we expect you to be a hot, you know, pretty high level starting quarterback in this league. And that's where I had Michael Pennix. That's where I had Bone Nicks. That's why, where I also have Shador Sanders at a 90 grade. Identical grades. Nicks, Pennix, Sanders and Jackson Darth. Okay, and then tier 4, 5 and 6. Tier 4 is, is grayed out as plus future NFL starters at minimum typically not higher due to their, their underdevelopment or other red flags. For Tyler schuck at an 88, the red flags are age me, 25 year old rookie and three broken bones. I don't worry about it. Not degenerative but the, the durability and the age are little minor red flags. Could be major for some teams but he's, he's in that by himself. Then we get to tier six, skip over five. None last year, none this year. That's the tier where Spencer Rattler was taken. Had a 71 grade on him. Get three guys graded higher than I did. Rattler and I liked Rattler. Didn't like the results this year but I, you know, I, I like, I liked him in what I thought he was going to be. Let's take him later, try to develop them. Maybe we'll. He got forced in early but I've got Will, I've got. Yes, I've got Will Howard. After finishing up my evaluations, we'll get into all of it. Will Howard at 79, Milro at 76. The wild card of the group. I've said it since October. And then quinn ERS at 72. All graded out higher than Spencer Reva. All right, that's the backdrop. Mench.

Mel Kiper Jr. (49:41)

All right.

Todd McShay (49:42)

Cam Ward, take It wherever you want to go. I need to take a sip and catch my breath.

Mel Kiper Jr. (49:51)

He tried here. I'll start with the negative so I can end with the positives. Some. Some of the decision making drives me nuts. He's got to take better care of the football in terms of the. He put it on the ground a little bit too much for me. He will make decisions at points in the game that he doesn't. He doesn't need to force plays and he does at times. That's the negative. The positive is I trust him with the game on the line under the brightest lights. I think this kid's got the mentality and this is really one of the most important things for a quarterback. I think he's got the mentality to go out and make a play and win a football game for your team. And then you look at the physical skills, arm strength, velocity, his ability to zip the ball, his ability to change the arm angles. He is not an elite athlete, but he's a very good athlete who can extend plays. He can run, rush for first downs, he can scramble first downs. I think he's accurate. He has a. It's just kind of a unique trait for him. His ability to. He doesn't do it unnecessarily, but he has ability to move or drift to his left and throw back over towards the middle. And he's. I don't know what it is about it, man, but he's super accurate and he gets great zip on all of those passes. And I mean, if you look at his highlight, really, you're going to see a few of those plays right away. So I think when you're looking at the. When you look at his mental toughness, I think, again, there's no one I trust in this class more with the game on a line than Cam or. And then you look at the physical tools, and that's why he's where he's at.

Todd McShay (51:18)

I think one of Cam Ward's unique. Cam Ward has a few unique traits. That's why he's in the position. He's put himself in the position that he's put himself in, and that's why he's viewed by many, the vast majority, I'd say, in the league as. As the number one quarterback in this class. And that's why the Tennessee Titans aren't going out. And that system doesn't perfectly translate. He's been in a version of the Air Raid from Incarnate Word to Washington State for two years to Miami this past year, but it's advanced the, the level of system has advanced and his level of play has advanced each and every year. Okay. He's got a handful of unique traits. I think one of them is how quickly he gets the ball out. When he's, when he's identified and committed, where he's going to, going to throw the football, it's out in a frickin flash. If you watch on the plays where it is married up, the timing of the route marries up to the top of his drop, slams his right foot into the ground and throws. He's an absolute assassin. The hard part can be with Cam Ward is there's so much other stuff, right? There's, there is some drifting, there's chilling in the pocket and like kind of moving around sometimes it's like, does he know we're, we're actually in a game or does he think we're like in 7 and 7 drill? Like. And it's kind of funny, you know, like everyone. Lily kind of laughs about it but you know, but when you, when you study the, the plays where it lines up with what he's going to have to do in the league. And I think this is a lot like, like my home's coming out. It was like, there's a lot of other like crazy wild stuff. It's an adventure. I told, I called it back in October or November. When we first started talking Cam Ward, it was like watching an electrical storm. You get done with the tape and you're like, I got like, I need a minute to process what I just saw. That was a lot going on because it's not like, you know, traditional three, five, seven step drops to on time with rhythm and you know. But I want to reiterate and I think that this is what NFL teams are seeing that is so, so exciting about him. When you get him in those on schedule situations and he knows where he's going at the top of his drop, my goodness, he will tear your heart out. Okay. Another strength I see in his game, sneaky twitchy. I didn't see it at first because there's a lot of kind of hanging around and like 2ft on the ground. Not like. But he's sneaky twitchy. And here's the other thing and I think it's the big separator between he and Shador in this regard. And we'll get to Shador in a minute. But Shador's instincts and processing are phenomenal. As a passer in the passing game, Shador's instincts and awareness in the pocket borderline suck. He's gonna get himself killed. I'm telling you. It's a. It's a major concern. This guy, on the other hand, who doesn't. He doesn't. He's not at the processing level. Processes really good instincts. The. The Pro. If we're to rank processors, it's truly. It's Shador and Will Howard in this class.

Mel Kiper Jr. (54:49)

I would agree with that. Yeah.

Todd McShay (54:50)

The Pro. The best processors. Processors in this class are Shador and Will Howard. They look very different. And I'll say this, and we'll get to Will Howard in a little bit. If you go off of every game since Michigan, he's the best processor in the class. But that's for a later conversation. Fourth Cam. His instincts in the pocket, they don't get enough attention. If you really go back and watch and just watch for this. How many times is a guy flashing late. It looks like he's just kind of hanging out and he's not all that concerned. But when he. And he'll sense it behind. It's like the Larry Bird stuff. He's got a heist in the back of his head. Right. He's like. In that. And that allows him as a. A plus athlete. He's twitch. He's sneaky, twitchy. Not fast. Not a dangerous runner, but. But mobile enough and. And can create and can absolutely pick up first down. A lot more mobile than Shador. But not a. Not like a dangerous runner.

Mel Kiper Jr. (55:54)

Right.

Todd McShay (55:54)

No one's in the Mill Road discussion, but I think Jackson Dart's a better runner than Cam Ward. I agree. I think. I think Shuck, when he. When he's going on a straight line and takes off, is a better runner. Okay.

Mel Kiper Jr. (56:07)

Okay.

Todd McShay (56:09)

But his. His ability to extend play so when he's on time and in rhythm, he's. He's an assassin when he's not. And that's more often than not. His tape, his instincts allow him that feel. That's the. When you. When you ask about Mahomes and you watch him and you're like, this thing's a mess. What's going on? Why is he, like, running backwards, running forward, sideways, backpedaling? You have to have unbelievable instincts to get away with it. And I think he has those uncanny ability to make accurate throws from a variety of arm angles.

Mel Kiper Jr. (56:43)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (56:44)

And off and off balance, which you touched on. And the thing that I don't think is getting enough attention. I hear people mention it, but I think it's like. Is a huge factor when I'm. If I'm Mike Borgonzi and I'm the staff for the Tennessee Titans. I got to know the human being, I got to know the guy. And yeah, there's some noise and, and you'll hear about it. I'm sure as we get closer to the draft and reports will come out the, the dad's involved and, and teams will view that differently. It's. It'll be something that comes up. But I. What, what's coming in this building, you want to see Mario crystal ball, like melt. It's bringing in a, a transfer right from Washington State who started an incarnate word, who comes in and changes the absolute culture of this entire organization, if you will. The entire program changed when he walked in that door. His commitment to excellence is what it needs to be to be elite. His work ethic, it's not just the work ethic, it's. It's the demand he puts on you right. As a teammate. That stuff's real, that stuff matters. And I think that that's a big part of why he's going to be the number one overall pick. He's a culture changing type of leader with an elite release, quickness, very strong arm, good overall accuracy as a passer, can drill some stuff in and become even better. His decision making is overly aggressive at times, it's questionable at times. You want to rip your hair out with some of the stuff he does. Okay. Won't get away with it in the NFL. Same with Patrick Mahomes coming out. Same with Josh Allen coming out. I promise you, the instincts, the twitch, the off platform, the ability to create magic, is that, is that additional stuff?

Mel Kiper Jr. (58:43)

I think we've done a good job of talking about this on the show too. And I want to just harp on it and say it again. Played a lot of ball. He's played a lot of ball. He's got a lot of experience. He's been in a lot of different situations. He's been with different coordinators, different schemes. You know, that stuff, I think in the long run helps a quarterback.

Todd McShay (59:00)

Yep. And we'll get to that with Tyler Schuck and, and the maturation and the development. And to everyone telling you, Tom Brady still is pissed off because it, because it helps him mode get out of bed every morning and go do that insane regimen. And, and Cam Moore's not going to be pissed off about where he was drafted, but he's pissed off about the fact that he was not a higher star recruit, that he had to start an incarnate word that no one believed in him. And that he went to Washington State but didn't go to a big time program. Then he went to. And he's done some losing and he's done some winning and he's gotten better. I like that about him. I like that, that backdrop. All right, Shador Sanders.

Mel Kiper Jr. (59:48)

Throw that to me or you going to get, you going to get into it?

Todd McShay (59:50)

No, I'm pausing on purpose for effect.

Mel Kiper Jr. (59:54)

You threw me off.

Todd McShay (59:55)

I know. Gets everyone's attention. If you're driving in the car, you're like, did McShade just die?

Mel Kiper Jr. (60:03)

Question?

Todd McShay (60:04)

Yes, please.

Mel Kiper Jr. (60:06)

How much does Fedora's supporting cast, the offensive line, the supporting casting. I know he had Travis Hunter and he had some decent smaller receivers that, you know, wanted to get drafted late, but I'm really talking about that pass production, the, the offense that he played in. Does, how much does that muddy the, the evaluation for you?

Todd McShay (60:30)

Well, I, I, I wrote in my, I wrote in my evaluation. You ready? It's important to note a couple things. One, he was pressured 236 times in 2024, significantly more than Cam Ward with 161, Dart with 161 and Tyler Shuck with 157. We'll get to the pressure grades and, and, and in a little bit. Okay, that's number one. That's a fact.

Mel Kiper Jr. (60:54)

And what's the waterfall effect of that though? Does that affect his, is the way he moves in the pocket and the way that he holds on to the ball and then, you know.

Todd McShay (61:01)

Yeah, okay, he could at times, but, but, but we've been doing this long enough. We know the difference between when it's his fault and when it's the offensive line's fault. And there are, I don't want to say hundreds. There are, there's more than a hundred.

Mel Kiper Jr. (61:12)

There's enough words.

Todd McShay (61:13)

Absolutely, positively. The offensive lines, fault. And there are dozens of times.

Mel Kiper Jr. (61:19)

Yeah. Just for the record. I agree. But I hear a lot of, of my followers and our followers who want to say, oh, you know, it's because of the offensive line. You didn't have the offensive line. And some of that's true. That is, there is some merit to that argument. It's, it's also true that there are times he has to get rid of the ball quicker and he has to be better with avoiding hits and all of that stuff too.

Todd McShay (61:42)

I never put excuses in a player's evaluation. I don't consider this an excuse. I consider this when I, when I'm actually writing this in my evaluation that I'm going to have printed into a book and is going to be my, my constitution for the, for the NFL draft and, and help as I walk through and do a hundred interviews and we do all of our shows and we do all of our, you know, I do all the McShay reports. I put it in there because it's important to note and it's not an excuse. It's. It's just the reality of the situation. The reality of the situation is he's pressured 236 times. Everybody else was in that 230 to. I mean 130 to 180 range in this class. The second thing that I put in here, he was surrounded by a highly competent wide receiver crew. He really was. Yeah, they're not, they're not all going to be high draft picks. But when you have Travis Hunter as your primary and then you also have other guys who were invited to the combine. Only 333 human beings get invited to the combine year. Two of the two of his other receivers, Jimmy Horn Jr. And Lajante Wester were invited to the combine and a third one went to the East West Shrine Game. And Will shepherd, who was very productive and helpful too. Not many guys in the league have three receivers who are going to be at the combine, one who's going to be a top four pick presumably and four guys that were all in the All Star circuit, slash combines and getting ready for the NFL draft. Okay, that's fair. And veteran guys who have been around and played ball and played ball with him. Competent group. But my however is Colorado's passing concepts, structure and spacing were elementary to put it kindly at times which frequently led and this is the most important part. I want people to hear that receiver is running in the same area. No answers to the test with hot routes. It put him in a position where there wasn't an out.

Mel Kiper Jr. (63:34)

Right.

Todd McShay (63:35)

It was either my primary gets open or else I'm, I'm, I'm screwed, man.

Mel Kiper Jr. (63:40)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (63:41)

And I saw that a lot where he wanted something and he. And it just wasn't there. Okay. So that's kind of the backdrop with this. Here's what I do know. Top traits for Shador Sanders. Fastest, fastest processor and best pure passer in this class.

Mel Kiper Jr. (63:56)

Agree.

Todd McShay (63:57)

And I'm going after. I'm going the whole career. If we're comparing to Will Howard, we'll get to Howard later. But the fastest. The reason why we're talking about him as a potential top three pick and at worst case falling a little bit in the first round. There's A reason why.

Mel Kiper Jr. (64:13)

Right?

Todd McShay (64:14)

He's going to go this out. He's going to go ahead of Jackson Dart, he's going to go ahead of Tyler Schuck and Quinn Ewers and Jalen Milroe and all these other guys. Why? Well, he doesn't have a big arm. Okay.

Mel Kiper Jr. (64:26)

He doesn't have a bad arm though.

Todd McShay (64:28)

He does have, but he doesn't have a big arm. So that's not a plus for him in the evaluation. And he's, and he is shifty enough and can extend and has some short area quickness, but he's not a threat as a runner. So why is it that this guy who's six one and a half, 212 pounds without a huge arm and without great mobility, why is he getting drafted ahead of all those guys? Why is he being talked about as a first round pick? Why would he maybe be the, the Browns picket 2 or the Giants picket 3? Is it his dad? Is it nepotism? No, no. It's people's jobs and families on the line.

Mel Kiper Jr. (65:08)

Right?

Todd McShay (65:09)

Get out of here with that. Get out of here. So it's because he's the fastest processor and the best pure passer in this class. One of his unique traits truly is his accuracy on the run. I've never, I haven't seen many guys. There's some, not many guys who are more deadly accurate from these ungodly positions of off balance, running full sprints like insane.

Mel Kiper Jr. (65:36)

Yep. That throw earlier in the year when he was rolling to his left and threw a dart down the side, down the, the seam and got smoked right after it, I was like that. Just not a lot of guys are going to make that play.

Todd McShay (65:48)

And that brings me, that brings me to another thing. Titanium tough.

Mel Kiper Jr. (65:54)

It's so tough.

Todd McShay (65:56)

It's like because you think about the rich kid with the dad who played in the NFL and the commercials and the, and the jewelry and the diamonds and the nil deals and all that stuff. You, you would presume if you didn't spend the time watching the tape. He's kind of, he's a finesse guy. He's flashy. Like. Now this guy is an absolute dog. Rough as nails in there, getting blasted, blasted when he shouldn't. Got to learn to be smarter and protect himself and get the ball out and can't hold on. But like. And then, and it's not just the titanium tough physically, it's the mentally. Let me tell you this, Mitchell, first of all, we know this. Whether we're the Mera family that was going to pull the trigger on him at number three or the Cleveland Browns at number two or if he slides a little bit later in the first, we know no moment is too big for this guy. He was built for this. He's been around this. His dad is the center of attention. They're always in the spotlight. There's just nothing. And it shows on the field. And I say that because in the two minute drill, Sanders holds a 92.3 passing grade against Power 4 competition. That was from PFF, right. It according to their rankings. And again, like I don't go off of like I will, I will reference them. They're good indicators. Then I go watch the tape and I either say that doesn't apply for what we're doing here or I say yeah, that. That matches up with what I'm seeing. It matches up with what I'm seeing. When the moment's huge, when they need him, he's delivering. It was the highest all time grade in the two minute drill that PFF's ever given out.

Mel Kiper Jr. (67:36)

Doesn't surprise me. Yep.

Todd McShay (67:38)

Yeah.

Mel Kiper Jr. (67:38)

Didn't know that number. Does not surprise me.

Todd McShay (67:40)

That's the why. Those are the why. The fast processing, the best pure passer, the way he layers the ball, leading receivers open, the touch, the timing. He just has an innate sense. He's instinctive as a passer. Throwing on the run is excellent. All of those things. Titanium tough drills.

Mel Kiper Jr. (67:59)

Don't forget what they did for that program. And I say they. I mean I know Coach prime and he's a big deal and Travis Hunter is a big part of that. But Shador's as big a part of that turnaround for Colorado as anyone else in that building. It's a big deal. To go in there and turn that.

Todd McShay (68:12)

Program was the biggest reason. The biggest reason.

Mel Kiper Jr. (68:16)

He's a guy who's gone into a place that's lost a lot of games and turned it around.

Todd McShay (68:20)

Now we got a good with the bad. Why is it that there are several teams in the league that have second round grades on him? Why is it that if you pulled the league that vast majority would have a later first to early second round grade on Stork? Okay. We talked about doesn't have elite arm, not a. Not a threat as a runner. I don't think those are necessarily like it's part of the equation. It's not all. I mentioned this. While he has outstanding instincts as a passer, pocket awareness at times is frightening.

Mel Kiper Jr. (68:52)

I told you way too many unnecessary hits.

Todd McShay (68:55)

Super bowl winning quarterback texted me out of the blue scared to that like this. This kid can't hold up in the, in the league if he doesn't change this. Gotta. Gotta know where the pressure's coming from. Gotta sense it better. Gotta get the ball out. He's not gonna, he's like he's not gonna survive the punishment. That and yes, the quarterbacks are protected. It's different from that day and age. Okay. But he's gotta learn to trust the pocket. That's the. My biggest note. Shador has to learn and he didn't. And maybe that does fall into. And it probably does fall into what you were saying men.

Mel Kiper Jr. (69:29)

And you can fix it, but that doesn't mean you will fix it. So it's all part of it. I think you can fix it. It does it again does not mean that it's. You're just going to come in in day one and be like stop doing that. Sure. And then he's going to stop doing it. It's a process. Some guys can do it and some guys can't. It's got to be factored into the entire evaluation.

Todd McShay (69:46)

Pat Patrick Mahomes is the greatest example of a quarterback who did the stuff that he did. The drifting mechanics all over the place, although his mechanics are fine. Like he does a really good job of getting his feet back and all in balance and throws and all that. But the scariest one is the most recent one. That's Caleb Williams. Because I talked to people in the NFL and I've mentioned it on, on our show before. Caleb Williams is the one that scares people because as a rookie all the stuff that we were worried about and the people who were coming out and said I'm not sold on Caleb were saying it's the hero ball, holding on too long, drifting, not taking the. The easy money, going for broken and. And I see a lot of that on Shador's tape. Now, is it because of the protection or is it just because that's how he plays ball and he's going to have major, major adjustments to make. That's what teams are. That's why they're bringing him in and they're doing the 30 visits with him. That's why they're flying to Colorado to do private workouts. They're trying to drill in. Like, you get this right, you've been around ball your whole life. You know you can't do this right. How are we going to. What's the process? That's why they're all meeting with him. Okay.

Mel Kiper Jr. (70:53)

Right.

Todd McShay (70:54)

But everyone across the board who's brought up the Caleb Williams example to me. Has. Has followed it with. And he's a fraction of the athlete and he doesn't have the arm that Caleb has. Those two things get you out of trouble. He doesn't have those things. The last thing I'll say with. With. With Shador that that is it's factored into the evaluation. Ball security is an absolute issue and it. And it plays into the lack of protection and it plays into all this stuff we just mentioned. Unnecessarily putting himself in danger. But he holds on to the ball too long at times when he doesn't need to do it. That pick six against Nebraska down the right sideline was a perfect example. An extra pump. Why extra pump? You're at the top of your drop. Get it out and ready.

Mel Kiper Jr. (71:36)

He does that a lot too by the way. That's not a one time thing. He does like a pat in a. It's greedy up his timing.

Todd McShay (71:41)

Yeah, it's greedy. Sometimes it can. It can be account attributed to greed. As a quarterback we like to call it greedy. Right. The next thing on the list of ball security is an issue. 10 interceptions, six fumbles in 2024. That's at Colorado playing Big 12.

Mel Kiper Jr. (72:00)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (72:01)

Fails to see linebackers dropping underneath at times. Is that the 6014? Is that six? One and a half.

Mel Kiper Jr. (72:07)

Right.

Todd McShay (72:08)

Because I see it sometimes flat out like I just watched the two plays again yesterday. Interception, first play of that Utah game and then interception with in the first quarter of UCF. The third play actually 14:25 left both of them same deal man. Didn't see the linebacker coming underneath. Is that the height?

Mel Kiper Jr. (72:30)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (72:30)

And then third things just. And I wrote this in my notes. I wrote this in my notes early in the season when he hadn't fumbled all this much. Reckless with the way he carries the football too often as a runner and maneuvering inside the pocket. So that's the full deal on Shador Jackson Dart.

Mel Kiper Jr. (72:47)

Here we go.

Todd McShay (72:51)

I went through and I watched all 106. I watched 1260 something snaps yesterday. Mitch Cam Ward throw up. Let's throw up the. The pressure stuff because this is where it's applicable. These are PFF's pressure grades. I actually didn't agree with some of them. I didn't think Shador quite honestly was as good under pressure. And I'm not sure exactly what goes into their grade and I should probably look that up like all the factors is it, you know, big plays at touchdowns that offset certain things. But Jackson Dart under pressure. His tape and I watched 161 plays of Cam Ward, 236 of Shador, 161 of Dart. Chuck was 157, Milro 136, Howard 130, Quinn you is 146, Kyle McCord 186 and 144 of Gabriel. That was my day on Tuesday. I finished at 10:37, I think it was last night. I started first thing in the morning. I watched every single one of their pressure throws. And it's not the whole evaluation. I've done all the games. I wanted to go back and specifically watch that because that I. It's what I've done in the past. And it helps to reframe and see. And it's a really good apples to apples comparison. Even though it's not all the plays are made equal. And Sanders 236 is not identical to darts 161. But I'm. I'm telling you, Jackson dart. Here's my whole deal with him. You ready? His versus pressure tape was enlightening. Lightning. This is what I wrote. Hangs tough, difficult throws with the defender setting him. Ball placement under. Under pressure is remarkable at times. He's got some Josh Allen in his game, man. He's. He's got some Josh Allen light stuff. I know he's six two, he's 223 pounds. He's not as fast, probably he's not as strong. He's not going to break his. But I'm telling you that there's a sense when you watch Josh Allen and.

Mel Kiper Jr. (74:49)

He doesn't have strong as Josh Allen. You know what I mean? Like, no one's.

Todd McShay (74:52)

And no one has the arm. I get. So I'm saying he's light. I get it.

Mel Kiper Jr. (74:54)

Right.

Todd McShay (74:55)

But I, but there's. Why I'm saying that is there's this like, suddenness with pressures coming and the ability. And it jumped out over and over on tape. Pressure's coming. It's not. Oh, oh, shit. We're like eyes down. And a lot of people don't. A lot of quarterbacks don't do that now. But it's like, okay, yeah. And then now, now, now. Let's extend. And under control. Nothing. There's no sense of panic ever in his game.

Mel Kiper Jr. (75:22)

Yeah, I would agree with that.

Todd McShay (75:24)

Three terrible plays at the end of the year with those.

Mel Kiper Jr. (75:27)

Panic though, or is that him just trying to make a play?

Todd McShay (75:29)

I didn't feel like he didn't get into it. We can get in.

Mel Kiper Jr. (75:31)

Okay.

Todd McShay (75:33)

Ball placement's very good. There's actually room for improvement with more consistency with this foot. Footwork. But I think drilling at home, correctable help. You know, A lot of drops on tape. I'm surprised. A lot of drops on tape from almost like. A lot, a lot. It stood out more so than any other quarterback in this class. Not making excuses, just saying, like the numbers. The numbers are really good. You saw that 69 grade for pressure grades from PFF. Best in the class by a decent amount, too. Shador was 65 then. Everyone else is 62 and below. Dog competitor, man tucks the ball and runs, and he does it when they need him. LSU game was impressive. Stats were underwhelming. Showed really good accuracy in decisions versus South Carolina. And a Georgia tape was impressed me because he got his ass knocked out of the game, came back in, it was in the rain. He just kept balling and making plays. And when they needed runs in that game, he made them Florida the game. He's going to be remembered forever. It was two of the most horrible decisions at the end of a game you can imagine. He actually wound up making three interceptions at the end. Only two of them counted. Brutal meltdown. I've said it before, I don't know if he was. I'm not saying he was concussed, woozy, exhausted. But as the kids say, as my. My son says all the time, Dad, I carried Tate. I don't want to hear about you carrying. Were you a good teammate? He carried in that game. He carried that Ole Miss team. And so, yeah, everyone said, well, the Florida tape. Yeah, but did you watch the first three and a half quarters?

Mel Kiper Jr. (77:15)

Some of the throws he makes on that tape, man, we. We said it all the time are impressive.

Todd McShay (77:22)

So if he's great under pressure, he's bigger than Shador. He's 223 pounds. His. His throws are more like. I don't know, the stuff. It look when Shador's drifting right and left and drifting back, he's climbing and extending and he's doing it and everything's moving the way it does in the NFL. It's climbed, go calm, under pressure, moving, moving, move, you know, and then take off and run when I got to also know the moments, too. Big time runs against that lsu. I think it was lsu. Big time runs in those games. Big time runs in Florida kept them in that game, truly.

Mel Kiper Jr. (78:14)

Can I give you a number?

Todd McShay (78:16)

Yeah.

Mel Kiper Jr. (78:17)

Average depth of target.

Todd McShay (78:19)

Okay.

Mel Kiper Jr. (78:19)

Jackson darts at 12.4.

Todd McShay (78:21)

Yeah.

Mel Kiper Jr. (78:22)

Cam Ward was 10.2. Tyler Schuck was 10.1. You're guessing Shador is lower, right?

Todd McShay (78:31)

I don't know. Tell me.

Mel Kiper Jr. (78:32)

Yeah, yeah, I'm guessing 8.8.

Todd McShay (78:35)

Yeah.

Mel Kiper Jr. (78:36)

It's not everything, man. It's just part of it. But I mean there's a big difference between 12.4 and 8.8. And I see it on tape. I just feel like he makes more NFL throws.

Todd McShay (78:47)

There's another stat too. And again, I'm not like, I, I see it on tape and then I see some things that help, I guess contextualize it for the audience. His big time throws under pressure versus, versus, versus. The pressure of more than two, two and a half seconds where he said more than two and a half seconds. Slight advantage over Cam Ward, significant over Sanders and all the other quarterbacks. Quarterback under pressure and production. You look at the graph. Darts Dart has a sizable advantage over everyone except Howard and McCord. And that offense just doesn't, almost doesn't count.

Mel Kiper Jr. (79:25)

So why haven't you moved him ahead of Sanders? What's the negative, what's the why he might fail?

Todd McShay (79:32)

Predetermined stuff is. Is the big question mark. And I think it is for NFL teams and they're trying to figure out because I watch, I got like Florida, for example. There were three times in that game they called the sail route over to the left side, wide open, beautiful ball under pressure. It actually gets, gets dropped right. Come back to it like 10, 12 plays later, hit on that one receiver actually pulls it in, takes a hit. If I. This is, this is from months ago when I watched this. So I could be off by slightly. But my recollection is the second one hits on that third time. The defense finally, in the third, late third, fourth quarter, the defense finally adjusted and said but we, we got to change what the, the concept here defensively, coverage was there still goes to that throw.

Mel Kiper Jr. (80:23)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (80:23)

Read the read of the defense says okay, come off of that. Get to your number two. It's just one example. There's. There's a whole bunch of them and if you want to sit down my office here and we could go through and show examples and then you talk to NFL scouts and it's, it's what they're. Now here's the deal with that doesn't mean you can't but you better figure out between the end of the NFL season and, and the first night of the NFL Draft on April 24.

Mel Kiper Jr. (80:55)

That's part of it.

Todd McShay (80:56)

If he can. You know what I mean?

Mel Kiper Jr. (80:59)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (80:59)

That's why.

Mel Kiper Jr. (81:04)

Yeah. I love everything. The other thing I was gonna say and I kind of Hinted at it before is those like 10 to 19 yard throws. His timing and accuracy on those throws, it looks like he looks. Those are NFL throws that he's making. And in the. The way he gets it out right in rhythm, his tape, I don't know. It's maybe not as impressive in terms of Cam Wards and the highlight reels, but there are just stretches where he. He just looks so comfortable and on time and in rhythm and accurate. And then you add again, the running. I don't. I just. I. I think people understand how good of a runner he is at this point. I'm not sure.

Todd McShay (81:39)

He's suddenly.

Mel Kiper Jr. (81:41)

He's a damn good run and he's.

Todd McShay (81:42)

Powerful and he's more. He's more sudden than Shador by a long shot. And Shador is more sudden. Yeah.

Mel Kiper Jr. (81:52)

If you're a pass rusher, you see Shador and you're like, we can turn it on. We can get after him a little bit. If you better stay in your lane. Yeah, better stay in your lane, man, because he's gonna hurt you. He will make you pay for getting out of position.

Todd McShay (82:05)

Absolutely. And he does it with poise. That's the difference.

Mel Kiper Jr. (82:08)

Right.

Todd McShay (82:09)

It doesn't turn into chaos. It doesn't turn into a scramble drill. We're advancing the offensive play because I'm going to climb or I'm going to. If the pressure comes from the inside, I'm going to roll. And I'm doing it eyes down the field. And a lot of guys do that, but eyes down the field calmly, with a process, with an order. He got. He knows where he's going with the ball. When it breaks down, it's just as good as when it's on time sometimes. Honest to God, better. His pressure dropped that. It was remarkable how much better. I'm just going to say it flat out. It blew. If you just evaluated off of. This is why you do you factor in all these other cutups and the whole games and the big picture, but if you're just going off, the pressure drops. He's the first overall pick in this class. I just want to sell that to everyone so they understand significantly better than Cam Wards. Cam Wards was slightly disappointing, if I'm going to be honest. Under pressure was not great last year. Shadors is pretty good, but, like, I didn't think the grade was as high as pffs. I got to be totally honest, like. And I. I looked up the pffs like an hour before we came on here. Just to try to get some context.

Mel Kiper Jr. (83:15)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (83:16)

I really only Wanted to share the number of plays because I thought that was significant. With the 236 from Dart compared to everyone else, it was 130 to 186. Then I was like, well, they got the pressure grades, let's put them in there. And. And Darts lined up at 69 with the grade Shadors did not. At 65, it was closer to Cam Wards, which was 56.5. That's, that's not a great number. Tyler Shucks, next up on the list was 62.6, third best behind Shador and Dart. I feel like we're an hour and 20 minutes in. I, I feel like we interviewed Chuck. We've been the, the, you know, the head of the train on this.

Mel Kiper Jr. (84:02)

Continue to be, by the way. We will continue to be too. It's not.

Todd McShay (84:04)

We will continue to be. And I do think it's important to know like now that I'm done. There is a difference because I said for a long time, I don't think there's that big a gap between Shador and Dart and I don't think there's that big of a gap between Dart and Shuck. I continue to say there's no gap in my mind. I think Shador is just as likely as Dart and Dart is just as likely as Shador. Given the circumstances where they're drafted and quite frankly, Jackson Dart and your family, I hope you fall a little bit. So you go to a team that has because that's. That you get a much better chance to succeed because the talent level and the tape is just as good, if not better. With Dart, you got to get some questions answered. We just talked about it. But he's got a great chance to succeed Shuck. And it's not because the age. Shuck is 25 years old. As I mentioned earlier in the show, Chuck had three injuries. Season ending injuries. There's nothing degenerative though. There were three broken bones. It was two collar bones and a fibula, left fibula in 2023 and September 23rd. Okay. And, and those injuries, what they did is they built a really tough core and shell for this young man.

Mel Kiper Jr. (85:24)

Humble, resilient, all of that came into it, man. It's only just the toughness. I think that it, it humbled him in a way of. Doesn't take anything for granted. You know, I want people to understand every day is an opportunity for him. Every day is an opportunity for him. You know, this is not something he takes for granted.

Todd McShay (85:40)

When I first got in this business, it was about who's got the arm strength. Accuracy is more important than arm strength. Who's got some mobility to add to it. And then the position has changed and it's more about mobility and extending creativity and all those things. And arm strength is always important. But I need a guy who's accurate more than I need a guy who has a big arm and all those things. The blind spot. I had to all of this for a long time and I no longer do. Who's the guy and what's his why?

Mel Kiper Jr. (86:10)

Right?

Todd McShay (86:13)

So everyone loves what they get from the game. Everyone loves being the starting quarterback. Everyone loves all that stuff. And most people can kind of handle the criticism that comes with it. All those things these guys now have, they grow up. And I sound like the old man saying it and it's always kind of been the case, but it's different now. And if you're around this game, you understand it. People see a talent in a young, in a boy, and it's a gravy train. Let's get them all to the camps. Those camps will lead to exposure. Exposure will lead to opportunity. They're groomed all of a sudden now you get Jordan, Palmer and Whitfield and everyone working with guys who are really younger and all these camps and they get four funneled up to Elite 11s and then the dilfers of the world at the time start to take that and. And it's a business and everyone's making money off the business and. And then they wind up getting their pay date. And it's extraordinary. Okay, but all along the line there's a. There's there can be, if. If not from the right family or not hardened by life's experiences, there can be some entitlement. When life punches you in the face, how are you going to respond? And some of these guys, when they get in the NFL the first time, they've really gotten like really gotten punched in the face. Now they've got to respond and they got a bunch of grown men who are trying to feed their family in a huddle or at the line of scrimmage in today's game in the locker room, whispering, nudging, you know how it goes. Okay? I don't worry about any of that shit with Tyler Schuckman. I don't. This guy is ready. He came up with, with Trevor Lawrence. He was one of those groomed guys, a good looking guy. The blonde hair, he's got his hair to the side. He's tall, he's got a big arm. He's in the camps he's in the elite elevens. He's with Trevor Lawrence, Goldilocks, you know, like, yeah, everything's great. Life's perfect. Guess what? Justin Herbert's going to be a first overall picks going pretty early in the draft. He's next up.

Mel Kiper Jr. (88:12)

Right.

Todd McShay (88:13)

And then until it falls apart and then there's a new staff and crystal ball leaves. Things don't go well his first year. Then he gets his chance. Season ending injury, transfer to Texas Tech starter, season ending injury again, season ending injury three years in a row. Then he gets with the Brahms who actually know how to develop quarterbacks. And he was carted off the field one of those three times and thought that might be the last time I play again. And he told us that.

Mel Kiper Jr. (88:43)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (88:45)

And he starts to learn, actually the game and he's learned a lot about himself and now he's like this mature 23, 24 year old and he kind of looks back and laughs at who he was and who he thought he was when he was 18.

Mel Kiper Jr. (88:58)

Right, right.

Todd McShay (89:00)

And I want that. I want that. I will bet on that.

Mel Kiper Jr. (89:04)

I agree.

Todd McShay (89:04)

Because I've seen more. You have. If you're going to handle the responsibilities that come with being the face of the franchise, you're going to have to be the eraser for 10 other people and the mistakes that they can make. You're going to have to do the interviews, take all the heat when things don't go well, sit there in the locker or at the press conference and take all the heat if you, you better know who you are as a human being or else it'll break you. And we've seen so many dudes get broken. Tyler Schuck's not going to get broken. And oh, by the way, he's 6 foot 5, he's 220 pounds, 219 at the combine. He's got big ass hands. He ran. He was the only one who ran and he was hysterical and everyone could laugh about it. You see it on tape. He ran a 4, 6, 3 at 6 5, 219 pounds. Okay.

Mel Kiper Jr. (89:50)

He makes plays.

Todd McShay (89:52)

He's bigger. He's got a strong as strong, if not stronger arm than all these other guys. Certainly more than Shador. I think he might have the strongest arm of the top four quarterbacks, but he might. But he's right up there with board and then like a notch above the dart and a couple notches above Shador. So he's got the best arm, if not, if tied. He's among the best, strongest arms, if not the best 6 foot 5, 219 pounds bigger than all the other others, faster than all the others. He's been through all these wars. You know what you're getting. He's. He's like, things don't go well early. He's used to it now. His tape is really good. Eyes, feet, trigger. That's why I see over and over again when his. When he does a really good job of keeping his feet right. Yes, he's tall, he's long levered. So he gets tangled up a little bit more than the other guys. And there are some bad decisions. That would be my biggest thing. When his feet get tangled up and he's trying on the move, he's got to kind of get a blooper reel of like, throws away and all the. Like underhand and all that. But he also has got some magic and he creates.

Mel Kiper Jr. (91:02)

Oh yeah.

Todd McShay (91:03)

Throws that you question and then you're thankful that he did. He's got magic in his game and the way he. I think if you've never watched him play, he's tall, fast on a straight line, moves around okay in the pocket. But he's not as elusive as Ward, Shador or Dart. That's the thing in terms of late pressure flashing. He's not going to be able to like the other guys.

Mel Kiper Jr. (91:27)

Right.

Todd McShay (91:27)

The other guys like right. And then. And then actually Dart can take off and run. The other two don't run that well. Shador, the worst of the three. But the way he flicks his wrist and the way the ball comes out like this guy's got all the tool tools to succeed and the most important part is the mental and the maturation and he's got that too. I would absolutely. If I can't get the guy I want in round one and that's the rest of the league outside of Tennessee in Cam and it does the value or I've got an opportunity to get an elite player like a. Like a Abdul or a Hunter and it's just not worth trading away. Three or four picks this year and next year maybe combined to go up and get Dart or it just doesn't work out where I can because someone's going to take them earlier than I thought. I'm not mad at getting Tyler Shuck in the second round. I think he's got a chance to be a pretty good starter in the league.

Mel Kiper Jr. (92:24)

Agree. You weren't going to get into him. I knew you were gonna. You had to say something about him.

Todd McShay (92:32)

Who Shock.

Mel Kiper Jr. (92:34)

In the beginning, we're like, oh, we've already talked about him.

Todd McShay (92:38)

Jalen Milroe is what Jalen Milroe is. He. He. I'm gonna put it this way. I'm gonna. Because we got to get going. The team that pulls the trigger on Milroe, and it's presumably going to be somewhere in day two. Would you agree?

Mel Kiper Jr. (92:51)

Yes.

Todd McShay (92:54)

Will be prepared to play the long game with him. Okay, here's what I want to say on Jalen. We all know the traits. Great deep ball, unbelievable athlete. Not their accuracy wise, not their makeup wise, yet processing wise. Here's what I see when I'm all done and I'm taking a step back and I'm looking at the big picture. He's a uniquely gifted athlete and a uniquely talented deep ball thrower who also enters the league with a unique set of challenges ahead.

Mel Kiper Jr. (93:24)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (93:25)

Okay. Flexibility over muscle mass is going to be one of the major things that has to change for him. I can't allow him to become Brady Quinn. Tim Tebow will Levis. It don't work. Get out of the weight room. Get flexibility training. Work on your body in a different way. It's not about being the biggest or the strongest or the toughest bully in the alley. It's about throwing the football more accurately and having touch. And right now, he's lacking those things. And it's the same thing I saw with Quinn and Tebow and Levis. Okay. And they're all the same dudes in terms of their upper body build. Okay. Another is bringing him along at the right pace to make him comfortable in your system. He just does not process the way an NFL quarterback needs to process at this point. Okay. Now, I want people to also when they hear that, Understand? And I've done the. The due diligence. And I know people in Tuscaloosa and I know a lot of people in the NFL. He is one of the most likable guys you'll ever be around. People absolutely adore this man. Played a golf tournament in Alabama this summer. Like, just love him. And beyond that, he's also a smart guy.

Mel Kiper Jr. (94:35)

Right?

Todd McShay (94:36)

Smart. Doesn't equal. Doesn't always equal. Christian Ponder is one of the smartest dudes of all time, by the way. Didn't ever develop the processing skills in the league and didn't have it at Florida State. And that was a big concern with him. But he still. I told you back in 2011, it went really high. I think he was 12 overall. So this to me is not Jalen hurts. Okay? This is not. This is not Tim Tebow. Although the flexibility needs to be there to improve the, the touch and the timing and the passion, the accuracy as a passer. This is not Jalen Hurts. This is not Tim Tebow. This is not Lamar Jackson. My concern is that this is Vince Young. Interesting because Vince Young was missing the processing because he always got away with it at Texas. He didn't have to learn all that and he didn't have to know what the defense was trying to do to him. He didn't have to be a step ahead of the defense because he was so damn talented and so damn athletic. He didn't have to. And Vince Young was not an accurate passer.

Mel Kiper Jr. (95:41)

Right.

Todd McShay (95:42)

By NFL starting quarterback standards, but he was just so right.

Mel Kiper Jr. (95:47)

Yeah, there's no really clear call.

Todd McShay (95:49)

Now here's, here's the difference though. Jalen's a smart young man and the team that drafts him in day two is going to have time. Vy did not have the luxury of time, right. So that leads me to believe Melrose got a chance. Vince Young was drafted third overall pick. Young just kind of splashing on the world. Just knocked, you know, chop the legs off the dragon out in California at the Rose Bowl. USC ruined the dynasty by himself. Single handedly own 44 yard line, gets it with a minute 13 left, carries the ball down the field after carrying that team the entire day, scores a touchdown. All of a sudden, hey, you want to go the NFL draft? You're going to be the number three overall pick. Wasn't ready for it.

Mel Kiper Jr. (96:41)

Right.

Todd McShay (96:42)

Melrose didn't have time. That's what I see.

Mel Kiper Jr. (96:45)

When he was being talked about as a first round pick. I thought it was insanity. I just never saw it. I kind of want in on day two. I just. Because I do too.

Todd McShay (96:55)

I do too.

Mel Kiper Jr. (96:56)

Plus the pluses that you're saying. And, and people can say, well, what, you know, like, you know, will, you just said will Howard's a better processor. And you can go in about a couple of these guys later on that are interesting and I agree on all of that. I want, if I have to push my chips in and make a bet or a gamble on a player in terms of projecting what they could do in the league, give me Jalen Milro now. Not in the first round.

Todd McShay (97:19)

Jalen Milro's not, not, not Vince Young. He sure isn't Tim Tebow.

Mel Kiper Jr. (97:23)

There's just no clear cut.

Todd McShay (97:25)

But, but no, no, I'm saying he's not those guys in terms of. If you bring him in, everyone's gonna be like, what, is it time yet?

Mel Kiper Jr. (97:31)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (97:32)

Remember Tim Tebow was, was brought into camp of the Patriots and there was a press conference or the jets are one of the two.

Mel Kiper Jr. (97:37)

Press conference later on in his career. Yeah, yeah.

Todd McShay (97:40)

And they were talking about maybe using like fullback special teams, different things. There was a press conference.

Mel Kiper Jr. (97:45)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (97:45)

Media was like, it's not that Jalen's a wonderful, likable guy. He was a starting quarterback at Alabama. You would think that there's more. He kind of flies under the radar nationally, media wise. You can bring him in quietly, as quietly as you can bring in a quarterback that played at a big time program, won a lot of games, has his talent level, wore that helmet and you can kind of just, hey, sit over there in quarterback room. Let's start working, let's start working. Let's grind this thing out. And I like that about so much of this man. We've learned his circumstance. I'd like his circumstance to develop.

Mel Kiper Jr. (98:26)

Yeah, I like it. I agree.

Todd McShay (98:29)

And Hertz was kind of the same that there.

Mel Kiper Jr. (98:33)

That. Yes, yes, I agree.

Todd McShay (98:37)

There's situations. No rush.

Mel Kiper Jr. (98:38)

Yes. Right.

Todd McShay (98:42)

I want to finish on this. I see the ceiling and it's not extraordinarily high with Will Howard. My goodness, was he dealing in the postseason? He just got dropped on this planet. And you watch just the tape.

Mel Kiper Jr. (99:03)

Yes.

Todd McShay (99:03)

From Tennessee on those final four games. I want to tell you this. He started 44 games in his career. Okay. 50 games played, 44 starts, totaled 9994 passing yards, 85 touchdowns. Okay. Also rushed for almost 1200 yards and 26 touchdowns. Best year of his career in 2024. Yes, he had the best supporting cast of all time, but started all 16 teams. Led the Buckeyes to a national championship and school record 14 wins. And they've done a lot of winning. And yes, it's a new format, but the college football national championship, Ohio, single season and career completion percentage records 71.4%. I'm not a big numbers guy. Why am I reading all this off? Because I want you to understand what this guy's coming into the league with. He's six foot four and a quarter. He's 236 pounds. He's coming off of a run, the most impressive run in probably College Football Playoff history. Tennessee, Oregon, Texas and Notre Dame. Yes. Four game opportunity, unlike the years before. So that was built in. But he completed 75.2% of his passes against some pretty good defenses and some damn good defensive coordinators. He had a great one. One of the all timers, Chip Kelly. Yes. And he had one of the all time great college football wide receivers. Can't wait for the 2027 draft. Okay, but he was going up against pretty good talent too, right?

Mel Kiper Jr. (100:34)

I would say the same thing. I struggle with the supporting cast, but remember, they didn't have the Notre Dame path. They had the. Or the Penn State path in the playoffs. They had to play. That was a outstanding run for that team and for that player.

Todd McShay (100:49)

Here's what I saw. He knows what he's looking for and has a clearer picture than any other quarterback in this draft. And he didn't have that picture early in the season. Is sure as didn't have it at Kansas State. I see a quarterback who like the light came on. I saw certain plays. I'm in here and I'm writing down all these plays I've got here. Howard clips right. Notes everywhere. My. My office is a disaster. Play 3 Tennessee Safety. Linebacker miscommunication. Linebackers yelling back to the. To the safety come the running back. Judkins could either release right or left. The linebacker saying, I've got him to the right. You gotta. You gotta help me out in the left. Howard sees that communication, checks the play. Safety drops down just three yards. He realized that the safety had responsibility for the slot receiver Abuka and had no chance of getting back in the play. Gets the ball. Three step drop checks. Yep. Safety safe. Safety's chasing his ass off to get back. It's like a mill, like a mike. Linebacker gets a slot receiver trying to get back to cover that middle of the field. No chance. Hits it for like 40 yards. Okay. Safety's widened against Oregon741, first quarter of the game. Eduardo, you can clip these off. Play 12. Safety's widened just a little bit. He's got a slot against any slot. He's got his slot receiver Abuka again against any slot cornerback in the. In the country. Drops a perfect ball over it. Texas 13:19. Fourth quarter games tied at 14. Chips are on the line. Not. Not his best game, not the offense's best game. They're in a battle. A dog fight with Texas. Texas sends six. He said his protection, understanding what could be coming, set it for six. Pressure still comes. But what he does at the top of his drop, he slides to his left. Buys himself like that much more time. Waits for the. The receiver seven. Tate right. Tate. Brandon Tate was. It takes to clear out to clear out and. And drops in a beautiful ball right over the cornerback side. So it's the. He's winning with his mind like it was the. The clear picture to me, after 12, 60 something snaps yesterday was that he has the clearest picture of all the quarterbacks pre snap of what's going on. He. It's like the kid who gets the answers to the test. And you wonder how do you go from a 70 student to getting 100? Well, he cheated. Well, in football it's not cheating. It's called being prepared. This guy is unbelievably prepared. The tells, the calls at the line. He's so damn decisive. Post snap, all those things. Now his arms. Average accuracy. O. It's. It's good enough. Everyone's talking about the combine. He was a terrible accur. Shut up. Get out of here. Stop.

Mel Kiper Jr. (103:42)

About the combine. Please, just.

Todd McShay (103:44)

Just stop. And I'm not even going to say another word. Just stop.

Mel Kiper Jr. (103:46)

Because the same people will about. About people not throwing and be like they should have thrown. Why didn't he throw?

Todd McShay (103:52)

But he moves well. I love you, Mitch. I'm not.

Mel Kiper Jr. (103:56)

I got access.

Todd McShay (103:57)

I know, but that's why I get you going and then I walk away. You know, I light the fire and then I'm like six, four and a quarter, 236. He moves well. He's not as sudden as dart, but he's got some sudden. He's got some run. He's competitive. Here's the thing. To me, Will Howard is the new poster boy. Just like Bo Nix, Jaden Daniels. Guys recently that we've seen. New poster boy for transfer portal game experience in college. His tape post Michigan. I mentioned this too. Not ratting anyone, not saying anything. Watch the big hit he took against Michigan. Maybe he wasn't the same guy the rest of that game. Maybe that's why. Maybe that's why that wasn't his best tape. Just gonna say it. His tape. Since Michigan was next level, it all clicked. Complete control arm, solid, not great. Ability to evade is solid, not great. But he's smart as a whip. He's going to outsmart you. He has the clearest picture, as I said, of any quarterback in this class. When he gets to the line of scrimmage and then when he's in post snap, most decisive. He's an offensive coordinator's dream as a backup quarterback in the league immediately. And why? Because your job as a backup quarterback is to prepare. It is more of an accounting job than it is playing football. You've got to prepare. You've got to. It's like an analyst. I should say like a financial analyst almost. Research, study, tests tendencies, all those things. He's going to step in and Be. He's prepared for that. He can contribute to the quarterback room immediately. When we talk to Shock, he talked about that. I want to be the starter, but I'm ready to contribute to the room. And you've got to. When you're not Cam Ward, you got to contribute to the room. That'll get you out of the league faster than anything else. If you don't have a special trait like a Jaylen Milro, that it's being developed and groomed to be the star, you better contribute to that room and wait for your opportunity. And when it's your opportunity, you're ready. And that's going to be his career path. If he's called upon at some point, he. He's not exactly overwhelmed. He's just not going to be overwhelmed.

Mel Kiper Jr. (106:07)

That was my.

Todd McShay (106:07)

Not going to blow you away with his arm strength or his elite pinpoint accuracy. But he's accurate enough. His arm strength is good enough. He's mobile and evasive enough. He's competitive. He's a dog.

Mel Kiper Jr. (106:19)

He'll win games if you need him to.

Todd McShay (106:22)

A year or two from now, he might be ready to compete for a starting job because he's playing. I get news for you. Andy Dalton, who was the best quarterback of that class outside of Cam Newton, who was the fifth quarterback taken. It's not because he had a brilliant arm. It's not because he was big, he had some mobility. It's not like he was Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen running around, you know, because he was. He was one of the smartest to do that thing and he was prepared and he had a chip, and that's what this guy's going to come into league with. I would completely understand it. Speaking of chips, if our. If our buddy Chip Kelly pushes the Raiders to draft him in round two.

Mel Kiper Jr. (107:03)

Yeah.

Todd McShay (107:04)

Whether it's move back, whatever, and I wouldn't have any pushback after finishing my tape. I'm not. I won't push back on any team if they draft him in round two, even though I give him a third round grade. It's a quarterback. All right, I'm done. Anything else?

Mel Kiper Jr. (107:19)

No. I think you. This was your day, man. I want to let you shine. I knew you were gonna.

Todd McShay (107:23)

Offensive line. I'm not gonna talk.

Mel Kiper Jr. (107:25)

I knew you were in the lab last night. I could tell. I remember yesterday. I could tell you were in the lab, so I knew it was going to be a big day for you.

Todd McShay (107:32)

I appreciate it. I mean, none of these guys.

Mel Kiper Jr. (107:35)

None of these guys can do what they need to do without A left tackle, though. I'm just gonna say that, like, I mean, we still realize that offensive line is way more important than you give it credit for, right?

Todd McShay (107:44)

No, absolutely. You're my trenches guy and I, And I will defer to you in a big way.

Mel Kiper Jr. (107:51)

I mean, this is all great, but.

Todd McShay (107:54)

Yeah, I get carried away and I know it.

Mel Kiper Jr. (107:56)

And, and no, it's great.

Todd McShay (107:57)

Love me or hate me, but I just, like, you can't do all that work and have this platform and not be able to share it with people. Yeah, I appreciate. And I pre. Honestly, I've appreciate the comments. People are like, don't stop apologizing. Like, we're here.

Mel Kiper Jr. (108:08)

Yeah, I saw that.

Todd McShay (108:09)

Right. Or we don't like it, but we're still here, so don't worry about it.

Mel Kiper Jr. (108:12)

So.

Todd McShay (108:13)

So I appreciate you and I truly, like, I don't know. It just feels right here, man. It feels right. This is the right place for us to be. We're doing the thing we love. I get to talk to you, one of my favorite people in the entire world, and we get to share some of our insight. And we. People can disagree or agree, but it's just a good place to talk it all through, you know?

Mel Kiper Jr. (108:35)

Yeah, we got the right team, too.

Todd McShay (108:37)

We do have the right team. And between Connor and Dan and Tucker and Eduardo and Mark, who are all behind the screen right now yelling at me to please wrap this hour and 45 minutes show up. We've got the right team and we also have. We got the right support, man. Our numbers keep going up and we appreciate you listening and watching YouTube, Spotify, Apple, wherever you get your podcasts. McShay Report comes out tomorrow. Thursday, Thursday morning. Check it out. I, I, we're putting a lot into this. It's not just like some side hustle, fun thing like putting a lot into this. And hopefully you enjoy it and we appreciate you being here and we will be back on Monday. Say goodbye to everyone.

Mel Kiper Jr. (109:24)

See you. That's all I got.

Todd McShay (109:28)

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