← The McShay Show
The McShay Show
Todd’s All-Satellite Team, the Latest NFL Draft Buzz, and a Defensive Back Deep Dive
01:57:57
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- [00:00]
Todd McShay
It's the McShay show, presented by FanDuel. It's our time. It's officially NFL Draft season and you can get in on all the action with FanDuel. FanDuel has lots of ways to bet on the draft, like pick, position, team to draft a player, exact order, top five and 10 picks, and so much more. When you win, you get paid instantly. FanDuel always has exclusive offers. The app is safe, secure and easy to use. So download FanDuel Sportsbook app today and make every moment more during the NFL draft, the Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and help lines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 and older and present in select states. Gambling problem. Call 1800 GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com this episode is brought to you by no Bull. Every day is an opportunity to grow stronger. Especially when you've got best in class award winning footwear backing you up. No Bull is a footwear brand for training and for daily life built to support you in your pursuit of physical, mental and emotional strength. And get this exclusive for the McShay show listeners. No is offering 30% off your order. Visit nollproject.com mcshay for 30% off your entire order. That's N O B L L P r o j c.com mcshay for 30% off absolutely jam packed show today. Titans cancel private workouts for Shador and Travis Hunter. Is Cleveland playing poker or leaning Travis? Odds are drastically shifting for both Shador and for players in the top five overall. And Jalen Melrose headed to Green Bay. He's not a first rounder, right?
- [01:58]
Steve Mensch
I tried to tell you, McShay.
- [02:00]
Todd McShay
Plus the 16th edition of my all satellite team and position group deep dive defensive back. Told you. It's packed and just 17 days until the NFL draft. M you good?
- [02:14]
Steve Mensch
I'm good, man.
- [02:15]
Todd McShay
All right. Play me that beat, please. We appreciate you being here. It's. It's 17 days away, as I just said. And we're. I mean, I'm done with my evaluations. Mensch doesn't want to hear it. But. But now. Now the fun starts. Right now the fun starts. All the. The hay is in the barn, as NFL people like to say. Right. So I'm looking at this thing and a few things jump out. First of all, we appreciate you being here. We're fired up about what's coming up. I've got a mock 3.0 coming up on Thursday. You got to pay to get it. I'm sorry, in advance, but it's just how this thing works. $4 subscribe for this year's draft. 36 to double down. Just google the McShay report. The thing I have not presented enough and I've, I've been meaning to say this. You can subscribe for free and there's a lot of free content. And this week the free content is my all satellite team. We're, we're going to get into that a little bit on this show. I've been doing it for 16 years. We've had some great names, over a hundred names. I went back and researched it like some of the all time playmakers in the NFL in the past couple decades. And so again, subscribe. Go Google it. The McShay report. You can, you can just jump in and get the free stuff. Have two, two newsletters a week and one of them's free every week. And then the other stuff's the rankings, the, the really high level intel that I'm providing, especially as we get close to this draft and the mock drafts. All right, shifting focus Mondays and Thursdays is when we're here. We're going to have multiple shows, a lot more than two shows, two weeks leading up to and through the draft. I want to remind everyone, because we are fired up for this, we're going to be in la. The draft ends in la. We're going to be in la. I'm getting mensch from New Hampshire to Los Angeles. Los Angeles. We've got beautiful studios. I hear in, in, in, in Hollywood. I believe it's in Hollywood. Bench you're going.
- [04:27]
Steve Mensch
It's all Hollywood to me. Yeah, it's got to be all Hollywood.
- [04:29]
Todd McShay
Out in California that we're, we're going to have shows all week starting Monday morning first thing after all the draft buzz, those conversations, what we're really fired up about and let like, let's build this thing together. Right? We appreciate you listening, tuning into YouTube, to Spotify, to Apple, wherever you get your podcast, Mitch, tell them real quickly how they can support us.
- [04:50]
Steve Mensch
You got to hit follow on Spotify. You got to hit subscribe on the YouTube channel again. Consider subscribing to the McShay Report. At the very least, get the free, get the free information. I mean that stuff's still good, but the, the stuff that's behind the paywall is great. He works really hard on it.
- [05:07]
Todd McShay
And, and I just want to remind people, like, I get it. You're going to have NFL Network or ESPN on in the background. But like, if you've been tuned into this show since October or if you just started recently, or if this is the first show you're watching, we're going to be doing a live feed throughout the first round of the draft. Okay? We're going to be live the whole first round, then the whole second round, and then on Saturday, we're invading Rosillo's house. We've got producers and cameramen and mention myself are going in there and we're going to tear apart his little man cave there overlooking the Pacific Ocean. And all the nice stuff that he likes to have is this grown adult who's got all the freedom in the world. We're going to tear it apart and we're going to have a blast in the seventh round. We're going to recap the whole draft, talk about where teams are, some of the biggest storylines, what teams missed out on, what teams still need quarterbacks, all that stuff. You gotta, like, put it in your calendar. I'll continue to remind you. But we're trying to make this big and we need your support. And let's just have some fun with it, right? I. I really think we're going to provide content that nobody's ever done before. And you get sick and tired of the commercials and you get sick and tired of the. The same kind of voices and same narratives. Like we're going to. If your team drafts a player, we're not going to start talking about like, well, they're on the clock and they've got this pick and who can they go next? We're actually going to stop down for like 10 minutes and talk about if your team's the Carolina Panthers and they just drafted, let's say, Jalen Walker. We're going to give you 10 minutes on what that meant and what, where they are in their roster and what we've liked about their off season and what picks they get in the second and third rounds, what's still available at that point in terms of what we project, what they can still do. It's going to be a blast, man. And I just hope people know in advance and are willing to give us a shot because we're not going to disappoint. All right.
- [06:59]
Steve Mensch
Can't wait.
- [07:01]
Todd McShay
I got a lot of quick hitters here, man. Every time I think. Little worried.
- [07:06]
Steve Mensch
Quick hitters are never quick, man, but.
- [07:07]
Todd McShay
They'Re going to be quick today. I get the feedback. I read the comments. Let's go, Titans. Cancel Shador Sanders and Travis Hunter's private workouts. Respectfully, it's not. It's actually a respectful move. These young men have played a whole lot of football. They've trained. They just had pro day, all of it. And so if you don't intend to draft them, either of them, with that first overall pick, why put them through another private workout, have them prepare, give them installs. It's not the right thing to do. And to be totally honest, selfishly, from an organizational standpoint, you don't want to be flying back out and have to spend a day or two of your time and take it away from other things in the organization. What are your thoughts initially when you heard that information?
- [07:57]
Steve Mensch
I mean, it's obvious that Cam Ward's now going number one. I mean, that's the first thing. And the second thing is it is the right move. Don't waste people's time. Don't make people jump through hoops that they don't need to jump through. Just do the right thing. You know, sit down, have that discussion. Say this, we're going in another direction. We think you have, you know, you're a great player and you're going to be a great player for someone else in this league. And this is just the direction we're going in.
- [08:17]
Todd McShay
I think we've all known that if they stay at one, the pick is going to be going to be Cam Ward, Miami quarterback. Right.
- [08:23]
Steve Mensch
Okay. For a what?
- [08:26]
Todd McShay
For what? No, no, no, no, no. What I'm saying is this, to me, signal like, we knew it was going to be Cam Ward. If they stay at one, this to me signaled there probably is not a price to move out of this spot.
- [08:39]
Steve Mensch
Okay, Agree.
- [08:40]
Todd McShay
You know what I mean?
- [08:41]
Steve Mensch
Yes. Because if not, if you're moving back, you do your due diligence and you still work out those players.
- [08:45]
Todd McShay
Because. Because what if it's the most likely spot to move back to would be the Giants based off of all the int sense and possibly two if Cleveland wanted to get up there. And if so, if you move to two or to three, Cam Ward is out because anyone trying to move up is moving up for Cam Ward. But if you move to two or three, even if you've decided Shador is not our guy in round one, you're then saying very loud and clear that, like, we're not moving back because if you move there, it's going to be Abdul Carter or Travis Hunter. Right, Right.
- [09:25]
Steve Mensch
And then buckle up for another. You know, I don't think those. I don't think those teams are a Travis Hunter or Abdul Carter as good those players are away from being, you know, a contender. And then what are you doing for your quarterback? What are you doing in terms of the quarterback going forward? What's your long term plan at quarterback?
- [09:42]
Todd McShay
Well, that's the other not nothing about their offseason moves. The Tennessee Titans have, have shown that they're doing, have any intention of doing anything but sticking and picking a quarterback. And that quarterback is Cam Ward. All right, number two, I told you they'd be quick. Yep, number two, so far, so good. I sent out this tweet because it's legitimately some of the stuff and again, I'm not talking to Cleveland. I would never ask Andrew Barry. I don't have a relationship with Andrew. Andrew Barry. I'll tell you the people that I do. I don't. I have some sources. But the conversations this time of year, and I'll continue to explain this, it's talking to other organizations who are talking to people in the league. And yeah, it's a game of telephone, but it's also like calls are being made and hey, the general manager just talked and there's some talk about what if we move up to this spot or would you be available if would you be open to a move there? And so people are starting to read between tea leaves and there are a lot of close friends. It is a tight, you a tight knit community in the NFL. And so one person talks to this person, talks to that person and it goes around, around. I'm starting to hear a little bit more about Travis Hunter as the, as the apple and the Cleveland Browns organizational eyes, if you will. And number two, I'm starting to hear more. So I sent out a tweet about it. It was right after the Tennessee canceling the pro days or the private workouts, I should say, for Shador and Travis Hunter. I said in addition to that interesting news which basically locks it in as we just discussed it, that Cam Ward's going one and more importantly, they're not planning on trading out. I'm still in the conversations I'm having, I'm hearing a little bit more like Travis Hunter could be the guy too. I want to tell people this though, and I've said this going back to our first conversations in December when I said to you the only two things I'm hearing out of Cleveland, not from Cleveland, from people talking to people in Cleveland, and that's early on, right, Is that they don't think the quarterback answer is there this year. They're comfortable passing on a Quarterback with that number two pick and taking one of these elite two players. And I also told you at that point, I think it was December, it might have been January. I told you at that point, Kirk Cousins is the guy that they think that they, they'd like to move forward with if they can make that happen with Atlanta. Okay. And here we are 17 days out of the draft, and it looks awfully like that information, my original information before Schefter said they won't. They will take a quarterback and then said they won't take a quarterback. And everyone's been kind of chasing their tail. I want to make this very clear to you. Andrew Berry, in NFL circles, the general manager of the Cleveland Browns, is notorious for being, like, having fun with this, you know, misleading.
- [12:58]
Steve Mensch
Just, you know. Yeah, some smoke screens.
- [13:02]
Todd McShay
So there'll be a little nugget. A little. So when I tell you I'm starting to hear Travis Hunter, my spidey senses go up and be like, well, maybe that's because it's Abdul, but they don't have anyone. There's no one that they're messing around with here.
- [13:14]
Steve Mensch
Right.
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Todd McShay
You know, if they're picking at six, then you hear information. Then you really. You think the opposite or you don't trust it at all. But they're sitting at 2, and no one's. No one can take. Take them out of that spot. So they can take whoever they want. And we're all, we're. We're positive at this point. Everyone's available except Cam Ward. So I, I guess I wouldn't even have revisited it if it A, wasn't information I'm actually hearing, and B, like 2.6 million people or 2.7 million people. I was told today there were that many impressions on the X post that I. That I put out there. So I think people are either agreeing or disagreeing. I haven't looked at the comments. I'm sure people are calling me crazy or saying or going off on any tangent they want. But I, I do find it interesting when you look at Cleveland and some of the odds and how they're shifting. And I told you before, like, teams are looking at this stuff and people at Fanduel, they make a lot. They make a lot of money. And I just think, like, I want you to look at these number two overall picks. If you're watching on YouTube or Spotify, you can see this. If not, I'll explain. We've got a graphic up Travis Hunter. Just a few days ago on Friday, I believe that was 4-4-4 was plus 240 to be the number two overall pick. On that same day Friday, Abdul Carter was minus 270. Huge gap between those two. Okay. I don't know if it had anything to do with my ex post on. On Friday if that. If that moved the needle at all. Hopefully not. Hopefully they have the information that I'm getting and, and hopefully there's some. Some validity to it. But you can't help but notice it's shifted. Minus 135 now for Travis Hunter to be the number two pick. He's the odds on favor to be the number two pick of the Cleveland Browns. And Abdul Carter went from minus 270 to plus 105.
- [15:16]
Steve Mensch
It's a big jump in a short time. Two things. One, Travis Hunter's a receiver if he's in a Cleveland Browns uniform. Right. He's a receiver first and then a corner second.
- [15:27]
Todd McShay
I think he's going to play both. But yes, I.
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Steve Mensch
Right. The other thing is, are we starting to get worried about Abdul Carter's foot injury a little bit more?
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Todd McShay
I have not talked to anyone in the league that has, but I, I.
- [15:43]
Steve Mensch
Either vibe but I see that drop and I wonder, you know, some of it's Travis Hunter goes out and has a nice pro day and, you know, maybe they just like him that much more or maybe there's a reason that Abdul Carter might be falling a little bit. And I'm not saying. I'm not saying that I have information or that you've said anything like that. I'm not saying that at all. I just see it in it and I, and I start to wonder why.
- [16:04]
Todd McShay
I just want to make it perfectly clear. I have literally heard absolutely zero concern because I don't want agents calling or people because.
- [16:12]
Steve Mensch
Right.
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Todd McShay
That's not what we're. But I, I hear you because it's a fair question to ask. My answer is I have literally heard nobody talk about that as a concern. Doesn't mean it's not. But it, but it's not something that's coming up in conversations.
- [16:27]
Steve Mensch
Right.
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Todd McShay
What I do think. And it wasn't the pro day. He was.
- [16:31]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, he was great before. Yeah, he.
- [16:33]
Todd McShay
He was goofing off at the, like, he. That wasn't him, like trying to show anyone anything. I, I think it was a lot of people gathering at the pro day and people talking and the, like this guy, you know, because now like, like the evaluations are done. Hay's in the barn, as I said, and people were like, all it takes is one comment right. And me and going out to dinner with, with Coach prime and Shador and Travis. And then I guess maybe, maybe Coach prime making the comment that one of these, one of my two boys is going to wind up there, meaning not meaning Shiloh Sanders, meaning Travis or Shador. So I, I think it's a handful of all those things. Maybe Shiloh will be a sixth, seventh round pick to the Browns. But I, I found that to be fascinating and, and then now we're looking at Abdul being the guy in the Giants or Shador. Easy choice for me. I like Shador a lot, I think in the right system. And honestly, Kevin Stefanski, I've said this for a month now. Stefanski would be a great coach for Shador Sanders. The success he's had with pocket passing. Quarterbacks that don't have great mobility, don't have great arm strength, thrive on processing. Two things he does is layer the ball accurately and processes faster than I think any quarterback in this class. Okay. But for the Giants, you know, Dable's history is more with bigger, stronger, armed guys. It can do a little bit more and get creative and have some fun with that. But Abdul would be the pick. I ask you, Mensch, Burns, Thibodeau, do you look at that as crowded or what? I don't either.
- [18:33]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, it just. You can't have enough. And you see last year, Thibodeau is great, but he, he missed a chunk of the season with a wrist injury last year and you just never know when that's going to happen. You just need to. We say it all the time and it's just true. You can't have enough guys to get after the quarterback. You never know who's going to get hurt. You rotate guys, you keep guys fresh. It makes it harder to adjust protections for certain players.
- [18:53]
Todd McShay
Imagine third and nine with Thibodeau, Burns and like, and they're prowling around, going to hunt, right?
- [19:00]
Steve Mensch
And then all of a sudden, Bill Carter's there too, and you kick Thibodeau inside. Or you, you know, like, you look at each, each week, you're going to find matchups with those three guys are all, you know, great pass rushers, but they're all unique. And then you start matching them up.
- [19:12]
Todd McShay
Based on Abdul can. Abdul can drop occasionally, too? Yeah, like it's, it's a problem for deep.
- [19:19]
Steve Mensch
For offenses. I mean. Yeah, I, I don't think, I don't think having two, I don't think having two good pass rushers is enough. I think you need more. So to me it makes sense. It's a great value pick and you could say it's not a need, but. But it's. It's going to make your team stronger. Are you making your team better? You're a better team when you wake up the next morning and Abdul Carter is in that on that defensive line.
- [19:43]
Todd McShay
I want to thank FanDuel too, for all their support and keeping the lights on, as I like to say here. But like the Todd's odds thing is, it's funny, we laugh about it. They kind of needle me about. But like every time I asked, I get an answer and I thought this was interesting. So now, now it begs a question. I'm not doing the Shador thing again. I hear your comments. I'm with you. I'm. I'm Shadored out. But I do think it's interesting. Real quick, quick hitters. Keep it moving. There you go. Tucker's the best. Here are the odds on Shador Sanders. If you're watching on YouTube, Spotify, you can see it. If you're listening, I'll explain it. Here's a graphic. Shador Sanders odds to go to different teams. Best odds of the team he's going to land on. Now, men just shifted to the New Orleans Saints at plus 270. It's still 370 for the Giants, but I find it fascinating that it's plus 600 for the Steelers is the third highest odds for the where he's going to land higher than Cleveland, which picks at 2, higher than the jets, which pick at 7. And then now let's advance this forward. Sticking with some of these odds from FanDuel and thank you again, they just keep producing. Every time I ask how about these odds for the top five picks? Because I told you I'm not going to get stuck on Shador today. Now that we're starting to get a clearer picture, potentially, cam ward goes one. If it's Travis Hunter two, then we. We believe, and FanDuel agrees, that it will vary, that it will almost positively be Abdul Carter at 3. So now you get the Patriots picking at 4 and the Jaguars picking at 5. I'm surprised by this. The top two odds of any players are Mason Graham and Armand Membu, the Missouri offensive tackle just slightly higher. Not. Not a big difference. But. And, and my guess is tomorrow these odds will change because my folks at FanDuel listen as well. But Will Campbell is plus 100, right? Membu's slightly higher. That's interesting, but everyone's. Now throw those back up. Everyone's projecting it's going to be an offensive tackle at four. I actually think it will be. I actually think it'll be Campbell and not Memboo. But we can have that conversation as we get closer. Everyone's projecting Mason Graham at 5. Why couldn't it be Mensch? And I'm not looking to. Like, we're not here to start making plays on FanDuel, but, like, why not Jalen Walker? I've said that before. At +850, you're trying to make a buck.
- [22:34]
Steve Mensch
You're in that market.
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Todd McShay
I'm just. Just giving a nudge. It's that. That one's interesting to me. Jalen Walker is an edge rusher. Then you kick Trayvon Walker, the number one overall pick, inside occasionally. I don't know. I. That one's fascinating to me. Because you believe you have a quarter guy who can coach the quarterback and finally get the most out of Trevor Lawrence and Liam Cohen.
- [23:00]
Steve Mensch
Right.
- [23:01]
Todd McShay
And. And what have I always. What have I said in the studies that we do? When you get. When you got your quarterback and you think you're about to get. Get it out of them, make sure you get closers on the defensive side. I love Mason Graham. Absolutely. Worth the fifth pick.
- [23:13]
Steve Mensch
Third.
- [23:15]
Todd McShay
Third rated player on my board behind Travis Hunter and behind Abdul Carter one and Travis Hunter two. Okay.
- [23:22]
Steve Mensch
Yep.
- [23:24]
Todd McShay
But at plus 850, that's. That's interesting. And. And forget the odds and trying to make money for a second. It's surprising that it's like. So we're just. It's a lockdown.
- [23:35]
Steve Mensch
Seems like it. Right?
- [23:36]
Todd McShay
Yeah. Okay.
- [23:38]
Steve Mensch
I mean, he's not going to New England, so he's got. It's got to be Jacksonville. Right?
- [23:42]
Todd McShay
Right.
- [23:43]
Steve Mensch
It's not going to go earlier, I don't think.
- [23:46]
Todd McShay
And who's going to trade up for Shador if they want them. If they want him to get ahead of the Saints and how far up will they go? Or have we just kind of been right all along? Really good player. Think he can be a good starter. Got to be in the right situation. And teams aren't clamoring to give away their draft or maybe a pick from next year's draft to go up to get. Not that quality of player. Would have been the sixth. Seventh quarterback taking it last year. Kind of what we've been saying since October. Right. Really like them.
- [24:18]
Steve Mensch
Yep. Not giving up extra assets to go up and get them. Just not doing it.
- [24:22]
Todd McShay
That part's fascinating. Speaking of fascinating, bud.
- [24:25]
Steve Mensch
Oh, yeah.
- [24:26]
Todd McShay
Of all the. That's gone on in the last week, from the, from the Hunter rumors to Cleveland to the. The pro day with Shador, to the cancellation of the private workouts for the Tennessee Titans with Shador and Travis Hunter. This one. This one blew my socks off. Jaylen Milro, unofficially, apparently, but I like the reports I'm hearing. It's true. Jalen Milroe has accepted in. Accepted an invitation. Let me say that again. Jalen Milroe, Alabama quarterback, has accepted an invitation to be in Green Bay. That means in the green room, introduced by the NFL, interviewed by NFL Network, ESPN and ABC. Sitting in that green. Sitting in that green room. 15 minutes a pick stacking up. What is it, four hours or so of coverage?
- [25:27]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [25:28]
Todd McShay
And. And it's an Alabama quarterback, so it's not like, like Will Campbell, if he starts to drop all the cameras. Okay. He's accepted an invite to the combine. Yes. It has not officially been announced. And. And reporters are hesitant because you do not want to poke the bear with. With that. Those offices in New York. And if they tell you, hold off, do not report that. Even if it's true, even if you heard it from Jaylen, who accepted the invite himself, they're not going to report it until the NFL says, okay, this is the day that we will announce the. The invitees and the accepted invitees. So it got me thinking, actually. What was your reaction?
- [26:13]
Steve Mensch
What's. What's their pro. Do you know what the process is for picking these guys?
- [26:16]
Todd McShay
I mean, I'm glad you asked. Okay. So last year, they've. They've been dwindling it down. What they don't want.
- [26:24]
Steve Mensch
Right.
- [26:25]
Todd McShay
Ironically, is what I think people's first inclination of what could happen with Melroe is to happen. They don't want the Aaron Rodgers, Brady Quinn. Brady Quinn's. It's not fair. It's not like, yeah, it's great tv, but it's not a good look.
- [26:43]
Steve Mensch
Right.
- [26:43]
Todd McShay
And I appreciate that they've tried to streamline that a little bit to the best of their ability. And so it's my understanding and I've worked in, like, I'm probably a pretty good source on this given my history with all of this and how close I'm tied into the draft, into ESPN for so many years and the inner workings of how all this goes. The NFL has tried to dwindle down the list. Last year it was 13 guys. Okay. And this year the report came out that they wanted, even. They wanted it to be a tighter, more intimate group, 8 to 10. Okay. And so what they do is just like they have the, the committee for the underclassmen. Right. The advisory committee put out feelers, talk to people in the. They're talking to the general managers and trying to get it like, is this guy definitely going to go in the first round? And so let's pull up this graphic. I went back today because this was so fascinating to me when it came out. I'm like a little kid. I know I get excited about stupid stuff. Last year's invites, I think it was 13 of them, right? You can count while I read through them. If you're watching on YouTube and Spotify, we appreciate you doing that. If you're not and you're driving in your car somewhere or you're chilling in your living room listening to us, we appreciate that too. But here's the list and I'll read it to you. Here are the 13 players they invited last year and I'm going to take you through kind of my mindset. When the names came out, the obvious ones were Caleb Williams, Jaden Daniels, Drake May, Marvin Harrison Jr. They were the top four picks in the draft. Malik Neighbors I, I thought was the best wide receiver in last year's class by a very narrow margin. He went six. He was invited and accepted it. J.C. latham. We all knew he was going to be a top 10 pick no matter what your evaluation was. Romo Dunes A. We knew he was going to be the third wide receiver. He was a top 10 pick. What number nine. Then there were two, there were three edge rushers. I'll get to the two first. Liatu Latu coming out of UCLA was the 15th overall pick. Dallas Turner was the 17th overall pick. Then we were all shocked. Remember the cornerbacks, when are they going to start coming off the board? How is Quinion Mitchell still Quinnian Mitchell was my number 12 player in last year's draft. He, he fell to 22 but he was still a first round pick. Brian Thomas, I do remember, if I'm being honest, being like that's interesting because there were some people in the league or like he's the second, I don't quite see it. And he went on to maybe have the best rookie year of the wide receivers. But he was invited, accepted his invitation. He was the 23 overall pick. Terry and Arnold was the second cornerback taking out of Alabama, 24th overall pick and the one guy I remember having a reaction to because I liked him a lot. But I got mixed reviews from people in the league. But that's what signaled it to me. I remember last year being like, huh, these guys in the league really do care about not having a player with egg on his face at the end of the first night. Because I've also, you have to understand, I, I get done with the first night of the draft and go back to the truck, the ESPN truck and there's all the executives there. I could list names, but I don't want to bring anyone's names into it. And they're talking about, yeah, well, we're going to find out. And we. Production meetings the next morning, we're going to find out if he's going to stick around tomorrow, not sure if he's going to fly home. And then the reporters who are with them and talking to their moms and their dads and typically you get an, you, you get a note that, hey, they checked out of the hotel, they're going to, so let's send a camera to their homes or they don't want cameras around. That was embarrassing enough. Okay. I remember last year being like, huh, Darius Robinson. They must, they must know because they don't want that, they don't want this stuff to happen again. And sure enough, he got picked 27 overall. So now we're, now there's Jaylen Milro. You've been trying, you've been trying to warn everyone a little bit.
- [30:54]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, I, I, and I, I've said that I, you know, this, this is earlier than why, what I expected. I thought the second, I didn't think he would get out of the second round. So I did say that I don't, I really don't believe he'll get past the second round. This seems a little earlier, early for me because of the concerns on tape. He just did not play that well. And listen, he did not play that well. He didn't play that well down the stretch and then he didn't play well at the Senior bowl. And there's a lot of throws on tape where, you know, I don't know what he's doing there. And that doesn't look good. But the traits, and you've talked about that all year too, the arm strength, the, the deep ball, the, of course, the ability to run. And then you look at quarterbacks like Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen who came into the league, who had some, you know, some of those kinds of issues and have developed into big time quarterbacks. What I'm seeing here, though, which is interesting to me is I thought, I thought there was a chance he could go in the first round. My assumption that it would be like a Lamar Jackson situation where someone would trade back in and get him. If they're really comfortable in inviting him, are they really going to base it on a trade? So are you thinking to yourself maybe, maybe this isn't about someone trading back in. Maybe there's someone, there's a team there in the back end that is looking at Jalen Milro as their quarterback without trading back in. Is that, is that the Rams? Would the Steelers do it at 21?
- [32:13]
Todd McShay
I could see the Steelers doing it. And Colin Cowherd made it perfectly clear that he has heard that the Steelers.
- [32:20]
Steve Mensch
Don'T have a second round pick. Mind you, they don't have a second round pick in the Metcalf trade.
- [32:24]
Todd McShay
And they're, and they're getting, they're getting Aaron Rodgers like it's a, it's the worst kept secret in the league. Aaron Rodgers is going to be a Pittsburgh Steeler whether he decides to announce it McAfee's party or on his own terms or the first, first night in the draft in Green Bay, as you suggested. Yeah, kind of a little. Hey, I'm still haunting you. Your big showcase agreement.
- [32:52]
Steve Mensch
So it's got his walkout music.
- [32:55]
Todd McShay
Yeah. It's just fascinating. I mean we could sit here, dissect it and guess and do all that stuff. It's not worth it. It's not worth the viewers and listeners time. But it absolutely got my attention and I think, I mean I know there's a couple people in the league for certain that I've talked to that is surprising. Listen, because a lot of people in the league, a lot of people in the league have not favorable grades on this guy. But some, some people see the thing and see this is what we do. This is how we could utilize them. We got a situation right now where, where it's perfect for us to develop. We got a good roster.
- [33:39]
Steve Mensch
We can, the Steelers roster, you look at that roster, it doesn't have as many holes as, you know, some other teams. It's not. I mean they, they're really, they're a guy. You know, if they have Rogers, they're pretty good for this year. They don't have to really reach for another need. They could take a shot. They could take a swing there.
- [33:57]
Todd McShay
Yeah, I just, it's fascinating. I don't, I think we all see what it is and, and I mean.
- [34:04]
Steve Mensch
Milro's in the 70s on my board right now. So that's where I have him. He's gonna go earlier.
- [34:09]
Todd McShay
Yeah, I think I've got him. Yeah, like right around 80 in, in that range. Yeah, but I know he's gonna go. I know he's not getting.
- [34:17]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [34:17]
Todd McShay
Third. I know. All right. All Satellite Team again. Google it, please, if you haven't already. It's the McShay Report. Take a lot of pride in it. Appreciate any support you'd be willing to give. And all the support I need is just Google it. Click on it and subscribe. I want to remind you again, and I'm not going to infomercial this thing. You can subscribe for free. We'll get you in, we'll get you hooked, and then maybe we. We'll squeeze four bucks out of you later. I mean, what. I'm not hiding anything. Like, would love to have you subscribe and. And. And be in for the whole. The whole stick. But. But you can subscribe and get free information. This is one of the things. All Satellite team match. I started it back in 2010 at ESPN for All. There's some great things about everywhere we work, and there's some things that you don't love about every place you work. But one thing that I always appreciated at espn, when you came up with a good idea that was well received, they would help you build it. And the All Satellite team went from literally, me sitting in the newsroom, almost poking fun with CJ Spiller, who was the first. The first ever winner of the McShay all satellite team, and me making jokes to CJ poor CJ who's at Clemson, probably got pulled out of a class or, like, was told by Dabo or someone in the staff, hey, you gotta. Come on. Shea wants to. I don't know. Was Dabo even the head coach back then?
- [35:50]
Steve Mensch
I think he was.
- [35:52]
Todd McShay
Yeah. But. But I made the joke. Like, listen, I know you were like, all Conference. I know you're an All American. I know you've won all these trophies. But one day you're gonna look back and be like, the most prestigious award I won was the. The. The All Satellite team. And clearly it wasn't. But this list has been really good. And ESPN did a great job of growing it. And they, like, they had studios filled with, like, floating satellites and all this fun stuff. But, like, we made it fun. But as the. Lee and I, I did it back in 2010 because this is when the league started to spread things out, and this is when college was trickling up. This is when, like, Urban Meyer and Rich Rodriguez and those guys were introducing the spread concepts and. And finding individuals that could create in space. And that's what, like, I go around all These different college programs. And it was like, we're just trying to recruit guys that if I can get them the ball with 2, 3 yards of space, they can go create. So our run game becomes supplemented in a screen passing and quick hitting and all that stuff. And so it grew. And this is now the 16th year. Okay. We've had guys like Odell Beckham Jr. Tyler Lockett. I remember Tyler Lockett was like a later pick and people were at ESPN like, why are you so high on Tyler Luck? And I'm like, because he creates and he's great in the return game. And he's going to be a really good number three. And look at the career he's had. Christian McCaffrey, Lamar Jackson, Jalen Waddle, Jameer Gibbs. Just a handful of names throughout the years. Okay. So this year, and I don't want to go through all of these and I really encourage you to go read it because we get the defensive backs to get to corners and safeties in the deep dive. I'm going to give you a few names on the list and. And tell me where I was wrong. Tell me if you would have reordered. I went with Travis Hunter. One. I don't think he's a 43 guy. I think he's a 4 4. Maybe like a 439. Probably like a 4. 4. 44 1. It ain't about that.
- [37:59]
Steve Mensch
No.
- [38:00]
Todd McShay
One of the things I highlighted in here and I get into everyone's skills, their, like their traits, what makes them what I've seen on tape, and I also dive into, like, you know, some of the. The explosive numbers and the workout numbers and all the different things because the. These guys are going to wind up on NFL teams. And if you're a fan of an NFL team, if they wind up in your team, you want to know exactly what makes them special. And I went through 11 different guys that are special with the ball in their hands. Okay. Travis Hunter was number one. And. And part of it. You made 66 missed tackles forced after the catch the past two years. That's just out after the. You know what I mean? Luther Burden, who I'm. I have reservations about due to. What are you getting in the building kind of stuff, Some baggage. But he's going in the top 40 picks is my guess. He had 72 misforce tackles over.
- [39:02]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, 20, 23. Luther burden.
- [39:05]
Todd McShay
Yep. Agree.
- [39:06]
Steve Mensch
That's what I. Yeah.
- [39:07]
Todd McShay
When he wasn't frustrated with the quarterback play and all that. You know what? A lot of guys I've. Not a lot A couple times I've been. I've had conversations about Burden and all the stuff but the name that keeps coming up is Debo.
- [39:23]
Steve Mensch
Interesting.
- [39:24]
Todd McShay
Not quite as big, but powerful people came with some stuff and like work, you know, like how's it gonna work? And the weight was a problem.
- [39:32]
Steve Mensch
Right.
- [39:32]
Todd McShay
I remember he's coming off the injury wasn't, you know. But burden 441 speed. Both built like running backs. The thing with. With both Burden and Hunter Hunters at a different level. Hunter's ball skills are as good as it gets. I don't. We can sit here and do comparisons best in a decade. All that stuff just telling you for all the. The athleticism, the both sides of the ball, the with the ball in his hands. The thing that always gets overlooked and I'm surprised this dude has the best ball skills that you could. That money could buy. Adjusting the ball that. But when it comes to the all satellite team, if you go watch him and I actually just put on some clips of his run after catch stuff. I don't even think it registers in his brain when he's plucking a quick slant or like some kind of like a bubble screen or Ali like I don't even think it registers in his brain as a chore that he has to catch the ball. It is so second nature like so that. That he's like two steps into his rack into his run after catch.
- [40:52]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [40:53]
Todd McShay
When some guys are making sure they secure the like it's. That part's fascinating to me. And Burden's outstanding too. I had those two guys at the top.
- [41:07]
Steve Mensch
This is where it gets interesting for me.
- [41:09]
Todd McShay
I had two, three, four, six running backs in the 11 which is not normally usually this is wide receiver throw into like a return specialist maybe. There's always. It seems like not always every year or sometimes every two years there's a quarterback. I mentioned Lamar before Malik Willis was on this list and I'll. I'll spoil it now but. But Milro's on this list as well. But it's running back heavy but also a lot of wide receivers and versatile guys.
- [41:53]
Steve Mensch
Too. Straight line.
- [41:56]
Todd McShay
So I went and walked. I don't take this lightly, man.
- [41:59]
Steve Mensch
No, I know you don't.
- [42:00]
Todd McShay
I let. I literally took I don't know, five, six hours compiling the list going back then and watching clips from the. The PFF ultimate stuff merged with. With with our tape. So good catapult. It's so good.
- [42:17]
Steve Mensch
But.
- [42:18]
Todd McShay
But try trying to like, you know, refresh my brain make sure like because when you stack them Looking for one specific. One specific trait, one thing they do, and you watch them. And I actually adjusted my board a little bit based off of just. Okay, clearer picture. I. Hampton was one of the three guys that I had on my first. I think my list was like 14 or 15, so I made some. I had to cut. I didn't want to go 11. I wanted to go 10, but I just didn't know. I didn't want to cut anyone off that I truly felt deserved it. I love Hampton, and his. And his missed tackles forced after the catch are phenomenal. But a lot of. It's like one cut, go. Breaking tackle. I don't. If I had to pick one weakness in his game, and he's light on his feet, don't get me wrong, but confined. If you get him. Well, we used to say a phone booth kids out there won't understand in an. If you get them in a tight alley, right. Like in the Back Bay of Boston. If you get them one of those tight alleys where. Where you're driving through, where the trash is picked up and dropped off. I don't. I. I see time after time, he gets tripped up or brought down in a tight space. Now you get him in a little bit more space. Yes. But I. These guys all in tight spaces can make you look stupid.
- [43:41]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. The SMU quarter. Smu running back to Berd Smith, who I know you love. I thought he might get. Might get the. The shout out here. The other thing that is.
- [43:49]
Todd McShay
He's a little bit more of the same. He.
- [43:52]
Steve Mensch
Really.
- [43:54]
Todd McShay
But I. What I. I love is acceleration. And like, we. Yeah, these guys are more like, you know, I gotcha.
- [44:03]
Steve Mensch
I think it's. I'll just give this away. Ashton Genti is 4. 4 on the list. I won't say who's in front of me. You already know two of the names, but there's another name. So you have three guys in front of Ash and Genti, and I'll tell you a guy that I understand who's not on this list, but I think he's sneaky. That looking back, we might be like, wow, that guy was more dangerous in space than we realized. That's the Maryland receiver, Ty Felton. The more I watch him, man, the more. I mean, it's. It's about the speed. He breaks some tackles, and he doesn't do it a lot. He's got a lot in his bag of tricks, but every once in a while, man, I see him make a move where guys buckle and he didn't do it. A lot. It just he didn't do it a lot but he can change directions on you, man. And those the average yards per catch wasn't high for him this year. It was much better last year but a lot of underneath stuff to him and the production was super high. So you're maybe not looking for for you're not seeing it in the on paper but on tape, man. Ty Felton, he's a guy that's that the more I watch him, the more I keep moving him up my board.
- [45:05]
Todd McShay
That's a good ad. That's a good show.
- [45:07]
Steve Mensch
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- [45:32]
Todd McShay
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- [47:43]
Steve Mensch
Interesting.
- [47:44]
Todd McShay
With the offensive lineman. I, I, I don't care. I'm getting too old to play games. What a tease. Yeah, so we'll have, we'll have that next week. We got the mock draft coming up on Thursday. If you don't subscribe, like, what are we doing? It's Mach 3.0. There's only one more mock after that, right? Then we're on to 20, 26. The hell, just subscribe. All right.
- [48:13]
Steve Mensch
I'm interested to see your take on this.
- [48:16]
Todd McShay
I think there would be some, some surprises off the top. Go roll them out, Tucker. Tier rankings. Travis Hunter, number one, Tier one. There's no tier two guy in this class that's just a notch below the elite class. Other guys in that group from other positions in that Tier two include, like, Tyler Warren, Ashton, Jinty. Ginty would be in tier one, and I think Warren would be in tier one for Mensch. Jalen Walker. So you get down to tier three, but it's, we're, it's not even the bottom of the first round. Okay. When I get into tier three, okay, I mean, I guess technically go. The bottom of the list is. But here we go, cornerbacks and safeties. I'll rip them off. And then let's start focusing on the corners. Jade Barron, Texas. Everyone's starting to call him Jedi Baron, but apparently it's not. And I hope it's, I hope that's right. I've said Jade, Jade Baron forever, but Baron still my number one cornerback. If we're excluding Travis Hunter, calling him his own, his own entity. Maxwell Hairston, Kentucky, 2. Will Johnson, Michigan, 3. But I want to make it this perfectly clear. I've come to a, a happy medium on all of this. They're all very different players. Very. Baron is his own. He's, he's going to be best suited in his own coverage. And, and he's, he's up there, 91 grade for all the things he does. Hairston can play zone and man. Will Johnson can play zone and man, but Will Johnson does it with kind of the instincts, size Ball skills. Hairston does it with speed, explosive traits, ball skills. Both can play, both cover all three can play both coverages but they're different players. Okay, then after that and we'll come back to the safeties. Benjamin Morrison, I went back to it. I just, I can't get, I can't get the 2023 tape out of my brain and I say that that's a good thing. Trey. Trey Amos. Another name change late in the game. Not Amos. Trey Amos from Ole Miss ran really well. That was the question. I've got him. Here's the thing. I actually liked AZ Thomas's tape from Florida State better than I liked Amos's and I like both of them a lot. Obviously I've got them in that fourth tier which is early second round but this is such a traits driven position. And Amos. And Amos ran a 4, 4 3. Thomas ran a 4, 5, 8. That hurts. And then the last guy on that list is Savone Revel from East Carolina who I actually really like is. I love this tape this year and the adjustments and the improvements he made. Let's get into these cornerbacks though. Tucker, show us the list. We got the top 15 cornerbacks. If you're not watching on YouTube or Spotify, I'll just rip through them. Travis Hunter, number one receiver corner. Then we mentioned Baron Hairston, Will Johnson's the other first round guys. Early to mid two talking. Benjamin Morrison, Trey Amos, Az Thomas and in that second round range as well. And that I think, I think mid second round range for me at least is Savone Revel. Then after that, Darien Porter from Iowa State. Jordan Hancock is the name I can't wait to talk to you about in a minute. Jacob Parrish, Kansas State. Quincy Riley. Caleb Ranso, who is another guy I really liked on tape. I didn't do enough on him leading up to this process. Upton Stout. I'm. I'm Stout on that evaluation and I know I'm the only one on Stout Island. And then Noel Williams from California. I've made this decision. We have talked so much about Shador Sanders and Travis Hunter. I want you to give me one nugget on Travis that's interesting to you. That's different that we haven't talked about. I promise there's going to be an episode where we do a half hour. I've already sent our producers Dan and Connor and Tucker. I've never done an evaluation like this before. Match. I did two pages, bio, background, academ, academia and then a full ass report on Cornerback and a full ass report on wide receiver. It is the most unique thing I've ever experienced. But we'll, we'll, we'll do some fun stuff with that and presenting graphics and probably doing the McShay report as well. But give me one thing that you want to highlight at the corner.
- [53:19]
Steve Mensch
This is the most difficult thing you've ever asked me to do. We've talked about this guy. It feels like for a full year, almost every show, one thing that no.
- [53:27]
Todd McShay
One, I'm telling you, we're going to come back to him and we're going to dedicate like a half hour solely to him.
- [53:32]
Steve Mensch
I know, but there's not one thing that hasn't already been said. I'll just reinforce it that this guy is a lockdown corner. He, the way he moves, the way he plays the ball. I guess maybe something that we could really focus on is instincts. The way he tracks the ball and attacks the ball. So maybe it's the instincts that we haven't talked about a lot. He knows how to read receivers, he knows how to read quarterbacks. He's just a natural football player. So maybe, maybe that's it. But I think we've all heard a lot about Travis Hunter at this point.
- [54:01]
Todd McShay
I've had a lot of good conversations with defensive back coaches and high ranking officials, whether GMs or Scouts. And one consistent thing that I hear over and over again, it's the Richard Sherman effect. How did Richard Sherman with that 40 and that tightness become one of the all time great corners for a long time in the NFL? I don't know. All time. But like he, he was, he was at the top of the smart. Yeah, it's the most underrated traded cornerback and that, that stands out. So I'm glad you mentioned that.
- [54:31]
Steve Mensch
And not Stanford smart by the way. He's football smart. Like yes he is Stanford smart.
- [54:37]
Todd McShay
But that dude knows. Here's my one nugget and we're going to come back and we're going to do a whole, I'm sure like a half a show on it. Did you know this? Hunter became just the eighth player ever to be named consensus first team all American and earn any level of academic All American honors?
- [54:56]
Steve Mensch
No, I'd not. I knew he had won those.
- [54:59]
Todd McShay
And it wasn't any academic, it wasn't any level for him. It was first team.
- [55:04]
Steve Mensch
Right.
- [55:05]
Todd McShay
In 2024, Hunter earned Academic All American First Team honors for the second year in a row with a 3.79 GPA majoring in anthropology, Colorado's not. It's a party school. It's fun. It's pretty good school. And I'm sure, yeah, he's Travis Hunter and maybe he gets a break here, but like you, there's plenty of guys that get by. Hunter's just the third Heisman winner to earn academic all American first team status, joining Heisman trophy winners Warfel and Tebow quarterbacks.
- [55:44]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [55:45]
Todd McShay
And he and Warfel are the only two to actually do it in the same year. Oh, that's so that's a nugget. Yeah.
- [55:55]
Steve Mensch
You had this, you had this great nugget. You set me up.
- [55:59]
Todd McShay
I let the smarts actually played into what I was going to say. So we'll get to all of his traits and we'll do a whole half hour show. It doesn't seem fair.
- [56:07]
Steve Mensch
Sherman ended up in the right place, which is great. I love that he ended up where he ended up and he was able to take advantage of it. Whereas I think Travis could end up anywhere in the league and he's going to be able to make plays.
- [56:18]
Todd McShay
All right, Jade Baron, Texas, what do you got?
- [56:21]
Steve Mensch
All right, this is a, this is a thing that I want to get into you. I agree with. Get into with you. I agree with you. He's a zone guy. I think he can play inside. I think he can play outside. He played outside a lot last year, don't get me wrong. But he can play inside or outside. Love the the ball skills. Again, this is a guy who just tracks really well. This is a little bit more of the 30,000 view, 30,000 foot view. And it's interesting me your grades frame. You don't seem to be concerned with these guys with the smaller frames. And I'm talking about Jade Baron, I'm talking about Maxwell Harston. These are the guys who like specifically are sub six foot, you know, a little bit smaller. I, I look at that and I say if you have the same grade on as Will Johnson as you have on Jade Baron and Maxwell Hairston, I, I'm going Will Johnson because I think he can match up with the bigger dudes on the outside. That's what, that's kind of how. And I have Johnson as my second corner on my board basically for that reason. I love Jade's tape. Love the way he moves, love the instincts, love the way he plays. Oh, tough, he'll come up and tackle. Love his toughness. There's a lot to love about Jade A. Baron. I'm not sure he can match up with the Mike Evans on the Outside.
- [57:36]
Todd McShay
Here's my response to you. Okay. What, the truth.
- [57:40]
Steve Mensch
Yes.
- [57:40]
Todd McShay
I didn't like Will Johnson's tape all that much.
- [57:43]
Steve Mensch
I know.
- [57:43]
Todd McShay
I thought Will Johnson sucked. When the ball was in the air.
- [57:48]
Steve Mensch
I thought Will Johnson back to the line of scrimmage. Right. Not facing it with his back.
- [57:52]
Todd McShay
Yeah, okay. Yeah, sorry. With his.
- [57:54]
Steve Mensch
No, that's okay.
- [57:55]
Todd McShay
When, when, when shadowing down the field, ball in the air. It's pass interference. It's not finding it. I mean, here I'll give you examples. Out of phase. First quarter, Maryland gets wide receiver number four, vertical route down the right rail. Where's the recovery speed? Where's the location later in that Maryland game? Minute 49, third quarter, press man covers you. Gets beat by number one, Caden Prather down the left rail. Stays in phase the whole time, but out. But, but gets out of position when trying to look back for the ball. Interception against. Oh, so these are all my notes. He had great interception against, against Marvin Harrison Juniors is why I put it in there. 2023. Right. That's what he does best. Off coverage. Reading the quarterback's eyes. Early jump, squat drive. That's where he's awesome. But when he's got his back turned, it's a, it can be a little bit of a, of a fire drill. Then fast forward to the end of that year. Washington, Roma Dunes. A national championship down the right rail. Burned badly. Double move off. That was actually off coverage as well. It's a little bit of tightness. There's not elite recovery speed. Then he gets flagged for an obvious PI. But he did have an interception earlier in the game.
- [59:19]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, I think he was the defensive MVP of that game.
- [59:21]
Todd McShay
He held up really well. I said. But, but this is Roma Dunes, eh? Right. And that's two. Those two plays happen in an NFL game. It's a bad day. Yeah. I don't care what happened. Okay, Fresno State tape. Did you watch that tape from 2024?
- [59:39]
Steve Mensch
I watched. I think I watched all of his tape from 2024.
- [59:43]
Todd McShay
Ugly. He had that pick six. And everyone's like, oh, the Fresno State pick six. That game is ugly. So my point in all this, and I like I'm overemphasizing it because I see, I see how Will Johnson's going to succeed. It's going to be in the right system. It's going to be an off coverage. It's going to be zone. It's going to utilize his eyes. He's great with his eyes. And we just talked about length, size, smarts. He's got all that. He's probably going to be the first defensive back taken not named Hunter. And every. If you go to FanDuel it's all. It's like first cornerback Hunter excluded. First wide receiver Hunter exclude like Hunter's just in his own category. So I, I recognize all of that men. But my point is it brought him together with the other two who I I absolutely adore Jade Baron's tape.
- [60:39]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. I'm surprised you don't. You. You have the other two at the same level as him because.
- [60:46]
Todd McShay
My, my grade on barons like a 93, 94 is a football player.
- [60:51]
Steve Mensch
Right.
- [60:51]
Todd McShay
Okay.
- [60:52]
Steve Mensch
Yep. I knew this. Yeah.
- [60:54]
Todd McShay
There isn't 15 better football players in this draft. There might not be 10 but five 10 and three quarters 29 and five 8 inch arms. So that went from here two brought him back down. Okay. Ran a 44 which I was worried about because now you add short arms, short frame and a 45 and we got a problem. But I just keep watching guys like Brian Branch and I keep. I I want you to Brian Branch. Devin Witherspoon was in a different category but still play some nickel. And I'm not saying he's just gonna be a Nick. I'm just saying we like listen to how many of these guys we underrated. You always tell me I love my. You love your slot guys. Well maybe this is a league mensch. Maybe this is a league that because we had so many cover twos and there's. There's space in the middle of the field. Maybe this is a league that needs guys that are chess pieces in the middle. Brian Branch, Mike Sanders, Stroll Garrett Williams, late round pick. Byron Murphy, Jalen Petrie, Dax Hill, Greg Newsom, Marlon Humphrey. Tyche Smith was a fifth round pick last year. He was like up for defensive rookie of the year halfway through his rookie year. TYLER Gordon, Cooper DeJean. And he was draft but still Jordan Lewis, Taron Johnson, Tar Heb still Michael Carter, Drew Phillips, Roger McCreary. That's like three quarters of the league's nickelbacks that were all draft almost all of them drafted way too late. And so when I see and I get you, I mean you.
- [62:44]
Steve Mensch
I can list the best centers in the league and say they were drafted too late. It's just because you don't value them as much man. Like you could talk about all the great running backs in the league that were drafted later than they probably should have been. You can do any position other than the premium positions. And the reason is you can find guys like that later. In the draft a lot. I don't. I think. I do think this. I will back you up on what you're saying on this. I do think specifically this position is changing. I think that you talk about. We talked about to Nick Casario. We talked about this when the Patriots defense started to evolve and they started to use three safeties. And you can have that third defensive back who can play the run and be really tough against the run. Jade Baron checks that box. You can have that third defensive back who's maybe a safety, maybe a corner, whatever you want to say, who can play close to the line of scrimmage, who can cover. Those guys are becoming more valuable. I think their value is going up and that's changing because it's evolved a little bit, right. About guys getting spread out, and now you have to have that. You want to go nickel, but you don't want to be vulnerable against the run. So finding that player, the Brian Branches of the world, I think the jade barons of the world is becoming much more valuable. But the reason some of those names you're listing in the past is because it hasn't been as valued in the past. It's like running backs. You find great running backs in day three, man.
- [64:01]
Todd McShay
Actually really good points.
- [64:06]
Steve Mensch
Appreciate it.
- [64:07]
Todd McShay
No good points. And. And that's. That's why we have these discussions because this. And. And this. It's going on in. In draft rooms too, right? Where do we take that guy? And I, I said another thing. We're going to take some time and one of our episodes, Premium position stuff. Premium picks, premium positions. Never more evident than last year. It's going to be fascinating this year because we got like eight, nine guys at non premium positions.
- [64:32]
Steve Mensch
I literally got excited when I saw that email because it's. It's a fascinating conversation.
- [64:38]
Todd McShay
Okay, Maxwell Harrison, before we start moving on to the other guys, I think he might be the most d. The most dynamic athlete in this class. Not named Travis Hunter.
- [64:49]
Steve Mensch
He's so fun to watch. His change of direction, his burst, it's. It's like a video game. It's like you take the. My kids talk about the sliders on video games, and they just took the sliders all the way up. In his natural ability. He. Yeah, there's nothing. He. I mean, he's small, but in terms of his movement skills, his burst, his speed, it's ridiculous if you could build a player like that.
- [65:10]
Todd McShay
But is he. He's. He's lean, but he's five, eleven and a quarter. It's not that. That small. It's not 510, it's not five, nine.
- [65:19]
Steve Mensch
That's true.
- [65:20]
Todd McShay
31 inch arms. The five year. The five year combine average for arm length is 30 and a half. I must have copied and pasted the wrong ones.
- [65:32]
Steve Mensch
I think it's thirty and a half.
- [65:33]
Todd McShay
Oh no, no, hold on. No. 31 and a half.
- [65:36]
Steve Mensch
31 and a half.
- [65:37]
Todd McShay
31, and a half. So like it's not terrible.
- [65:40]
Steve Mensch
You're right.
- [65:42]
Todd McShay
But let me tell you something, bud. 4, 2, 8. Fastest 39 inch vertical jump. Second best of the cornerbacks. 10, 9 broad silly corner. And then the tape. Elite, elite ball skills. The way he can move and how confident he is with the ball in the air. The other thing is 300 snaps in 20, 24, zero touchdowns allowed, whatever. But Georgia, three targets, one reception allowed. Luther Burden, two receptions allowed. 15 yards interception against Burton, Alabama, three receptions allowed, 28 yards. South Carolina 20, 23. Leggett and Nick Harbor. Four targets, one catch allowed, four yards. He's done it against some good dudes, man. The only tape I didn't think was great for him was Texas Golden. There were a few put, but nothing horrible. There was one where golden caught it. Harrison was going against the grain and, and just kind of smoked him. But it wasn't, it wasn't a coverage thing as much as it was like one false step against 4, 29 speed or whatever golden ran. Yeah.
- [67:04]
Steve Mensch
There's a reason they say great corners have short memories. That's because everyone gets got. It's like the Marshawn lynched in. Everyone gets got. I'm just going to get more than I get got. I mean that's just how, how it works, man. You're out on an island, you're going up against big time players, you're going to get beat sometimes. Safety's missed some tackles. Corners get beat over the top every once in a while. That's life, man. You better get back at it on the next snap and stop worrying about it.
- [67:26]
Todd McShay
So my rankings are Will Johnson, number one corner not named. I'm sorry, Jade Baron, number one corner not named. Hunter Hairston and Will Johnson and all with a 91 grade. So it's not kind of not splitting hairs. It's within the buckets as we talked about. But I, I can, I, I won't promise you, but I feel really comfortable saying it's very likely it's going to go Will Johnson, first corner not named, Hunter, then Baron, then Hairston. But I also will say this. I will be shocked if all three of Those guys are not off the board in round one.
- [68:10]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, I agree with that.
- [68:11]
Todd McShay
And I think Harrison's coming off a little bit earlier than people want to. Want to.
- [68:16]
Steve Mensch
I don't think they'll be the only three. I think some of those other guys are going to move in there too. I just think you need them. I mean, you just saw the. The Raiders release Jack Jones. I mean, some guys there's going to be some love for corners.
- [68:29]
Todd McShay
So that. That next tier, tier four. Benjamin Morrison, Notre Dame. Trey Amos, Ole Miss, AZ Thomas, Florida, Florida State. Sorry. And. Oh, and Savone Revel. What jumps out? Is there anyone you want to highlight there?
- [68:54]
Steve Mensch
I mean, just going really quickly. I think Morrison had the best tape in 2023. Az Thomas's tape really good last year. Treamus is going to be very attractive to people because he's a press corner. I mean, that's what he was born to do. And if you're in the NFL and you want to press corner, this guy's got the length and the speed. He's. He's made to do that. So is A.Z. thomas didn't run as well. And Savone Rebels maybe the biggest upside guy. He's coming off a knee injury. Never really got to show what he could do in the college level. So all four of them are a little bit different. I do like Morrison the best. I think he can play over the slot. He can play outside right away. I'm like you. I just think the 2023 tape is so damn good. The human seat belt. I mean, he is all over guys on that tape. Didn't run though. I mean, how serious is the injury? Because he's not. I don't think he's a great speed guy. I'd love to have a time on him just to have a time to.
- [69:47]
Todd McShay
Yeah, I agree.
- [69:48]
Steve Mensch
To ease some concerns about it.
- [69:51]
Todd McShay
I thought he played well in 2024 and better in man than I thought he would. He played a lot more man.
- [69:56]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [69:57]
Todd McShay
With El golden this year. Notre Dame. Gosh, he's a scrappy player, man. Gap, integrity, support, works his ass up to funnel and keep contained. Like he does all those little things.
- [70:10]
Steve Mensch
Right.
- [70:10]
Todd McShay
He's just. Listen, I get it. You got longer or faster or better press man with. With Thomas and Amos.
- [70:21]
Steve Mensch
Yep.
- [70:22]
Todd McShay
But he's a better football player for whatever that's worth. And it's not always worth ton. But I did know this talking to teams. I didn't realize that was his second hip surgery.
- [70:38]
Steve Mensch
Oh, I didn't know that.
- [70:40]
Todd McShay
I didn't see that his right hip in 2021 in high school and his left in 2024.
- [70:45]
Steve Mensch
Sucks.
- [70:47]
Todd McShay
But again, like, hips are not a thing these days, apparently. I don't know, just. It was an interesting nugget.
- [70:55]
Steve Mensch
Savone Revel is interesting too, because I see it.
- [70:59]
Todd McShay
I see. I didn't see it. I didn't see it. I saw. Okay, so just. I want people to understand. Reek. Reek Wolin. He was a 5th round pick.
- [71:10]
Steve Mensch
How is he a 5th round pick? Man, the way he ran the tape. No idea.
- [71:15]
Todd McShay
Because his tape absolutely stunk.
- [71:20]
Steve Mensch
No, it wasn't that bad.
- [71:22]
Todd McShay
But I prom. He was lost. He had no technique. He didn't know how to press. Oh, he looked like a D. Like one of those young, like fawns at times. He did, man.
- [71:38]
Steve Mensch
Overkill, classical tall.
- [71:40]
Todd McShay
He was long. He had like the best traits you could ever imagine. Yeah. And we said. I said from after the minute I got done watching his tape. Won't. Won't work in most places in Seattle. Like this is a Seattle pick. I don't know what took him five rounds to do it, but they did it. So Revel. It was a little bit of the same with Revel. Watching his tape in 2023. Not nearly as bad in my opinion. Not nearly as bad as Reek Wallen's tape. Re. Reek. Wallen's tape reeked.
- [72:12]
Steve Mensch
You're killing Reek.
- [72:14]
Todd McShay
I mean, he can laugh about it now too, but Revel kind of like Lewisburg College, right? Two years. 2020, 2021. Covid restrictions didn't have they only six games. Excuse me. Transfers to ECU in 2022, plays sparingly. So this is a 2023, 2024 evaluation for a guy who's been in college since 2020 and not at the biggest programs. He looked good at times in 2023. You could see the potential. And I was. I watched 23 first and then I popped in the 24. I was dying to see what did summer bring? Was there coaching strength? I wanted to see the tech press technique and strength. And I saw it right away. I think one of my favorite, most fun. Do me a favor. When the. When you're done with all your evaluations and you got 20 minutes, do yourself a favor. Go through the cutups of the SMU 2023 tape. I thought it was 2024, actually. Either way, go. You'll find it. The 2023 tape. They went after revelation vertically down the rails like a dozen times. I couldn't believe I thought at first like after three or four I thought maybe it was skipping or like there was a problem with you know as, as my kids would say it was glitching, dad. It was glitching. I thought it was glitching. I've never seen anything like it. They hit on one out of like it felt like 15. It was probably like eight or nine.
- [73:46]
Steve Mensch
But like they saw something they liked.
- [73:50]
Todd McShay
Seven didn't work out. Shotgun, three steps driving it and he held up. I think he's got a chance to be real really, really good in the COVID 362-194-almost 33 inch arms. Don't know what he runs but I just think he's a good, good player.
- [74:11]
Steve Mensch
He runs well on tape. I don't know what the number is but he runs well on tape like whether that's a 4, 45 or or something a little bit different.
- [74:20]
Todd McShay
But what's interesting though and I'm transitioning now Darien Porter, the next guy on my rankings actually has I think Revel plays more like Reek Wolin. Porter has the closest thing to to Reek Woolen's measurables maybe we've seen since woolen came out.
- [74:40]
Steve Mensch
Yep.
- [74:41]
Todd McShay
631 95, 33 and 1 8. His arms are longer than Will Campbell's bruh.
- [74:50]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [74:51]
Todd McShay
You know let's see how he said and he went and he ran a 4:3 flat. Overall Speed Leader on the zebra technology at the Senior Bowl. 22.17 miles an hour. His 4:3 flat was the second fastest of any cornerback behind Harrison was the fastest player out there. Now Porter's 25, played three seasons at corner. Transitioned from wide receiver. Former wide receiver though in special teams maven.
- [75:20]
Steve Mensch
So he only started one year corner too. Right. He only got one year starting.
- [75:25]
Todd McShay
Thank you. Yeah we're bringing in a 25 year old that sucks because you don't want to bring in a 25 year old developmental corner.
- [75:34]
Steve Mensch
Right.
- [75:35]
Todd McShay
But he's played, he's been great. He's proven on special teams, great ball skills. I don't think it's like it didn't take long from that trash tape from Reek Wool and I'm obviously I'm running with the joke now but from that not so pleasant experience of Greek Woolen's tape at a very at UTSA to be like considered rookie of the defensive rookie of the year in the NFL for a long stretch in his rookie year. So if they can if he gets with the right team, the right coaching cover 3 heavy all that and he only allowed 4.7 passer rating this last year. He was good.
- [76:13]
Steve Mensch
I'm encouraged by his tape. I mean, I was encouraged by the way he played corner. But you know what scares the hell out of me? For a guy who's really good on special teams, his tackling, his run defense is not good. That's. I mean, for guys that big who has that special teams background, that's not what I expected. He does. He is not a good. He's not good in run support. That's something he's gonna have to clean up. He can. He's a big dude. He's got long arms. That'll all help. But he was not good against the run this year.
- [76:41]
Todd McShay
All right, Tucker, throw up. If you're still awake back there. An hour and 15 minutes in, throw up. And this is the last position group deep dive. So we. These, these shows will be shorter.
- [76:52]
Steve Mensch
Offensive line, don't try to cut it out.
- [76:55]
Todd McShay
That's right. Shoot. I mean, it's winter again in Boston. I'm sniffling.
- [77:03]
Steve Mensch
I've been snowing this morning here.
- [77:05]
Todd McShay
I got like, look like quarter bars sitting around. Oh, my God.
- [77:10]
Steve Mensch
Oh, my God.
- [77:11]
Todd McShay
I finished my safeties like an hour.
- [77:14]
Steve Mensch
Before just taking it out on Wreak.
- [77:16]
Todd McShay
All right. No, Tucker, the corners. Sorry, bud. Throw up the corners. Here's this list of the next guys. We just went through the top nine. Those are all guys I think could go in the first two rounds.
- [77:27]
Steve Mensch
I want to hear what you have to say about Hancock.
- [77:29]
Todd McShay
I'm gonna give. Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna go through two players in this next five. Jordan Hancock, Ohio State, Jacob Parish, Kansas State, Quincy Riley, Louisville, Caleb Ransot, Tulane, Upton Stout, Western Kentucky, and Noel Williams, California. Pick a guy or two while I'm talking that you're ready to. That you want to highlight from either from that list or someone that's not in my top 15 corners. Anyone you want. Take it anywhere you want before we get to safeties. Okay. And I promise you the safeties are shorter because it's just not that great of a class. But I was told by a friend in the league and thank you, friend. Make sure I go back and double triple check on, on Jordan Hancock's tape. See what, see what you think. Because they're kind of struggling a little bit with them, but some people in the building like him. I like this guy a lot. I like him a lot. 4 year player, 1 1/2 year starter at Ohio State. Everyone knows Denzel Burke, right? Everyone knows Davis, Davis Igbos, the Best player in that, in that, in that secondary was Caleb Downs. Not really close. And. And Ransom, the strong safety got a lot of love too. Jordan Hancock was the second best corner defensive back in that secondary this past year. Okay. Didn't participate at the combine. Excellent pro day, though.
- [78:52]
Steve Mensch
State guys didn't, by the way, going through them and they're not, they're just.
- [78:56]
Todd McShay
They didn't do it and they shouldn't have been. Why does everyone else get two months to prepare and we get a few weeks? Okay.
- [79:03]
Steve Mensch
Yep.
- [79:05]
Todd McShay
Excellent pro day, though. 4, 4, 2, 40 would have been the 10th fastest of all the cornerbacks. And 10th is like. It's a long list and a lot of fast times. Listen to this. 41 and a half inch vertical would have been the best by the cornerback, by a cornerback at the combine. 106 broad would have been tied for seventh. Also worth noting, arm length. 31 and 5. 8 of an inch at his. Com. At the. Com. At the pro day. I don't know what was pissed into that suit. It's crazy of the combine measurement gentleman for the arm length, but the number differences that we're getting. And these are also very competent NFL scouts that again, you have to keep making pro days. It's not, it's not like the equipment guy at Ohio State. Yeah. Give him another inch. It's a. It's an actual NFL scout who needs this to be right.
- [79:59]
Steve Mensch
I had dinner with someone the other night and they were like, oh, you see those LSU guys giving Will Campbell a little extra? I was. It's not. That's not what happened. It is not the LSU equipment manager winking at Will as he measured. He puts the tape measure on his arms.
- [80:13]
Todd McShay
All right, so Hancock. Fast, physical, aggressive, instinctive, smart. Nickel. Think of like the star, you know, nickel, big nickel. What. That's what he is. I thought he showed a lot of improvement throughout the 2024 season. I thought he got better the late tapes better than the earlier. Which is.
- [80:31]
Steve Mensch
Did he play a lot early on or is he. He kind of got worked in. I felt like he got worked into it as the, the season went on and they went into.
- [80:38]
Todd McShay
He played more.
- [80:40]
Steve Mensch
Right.
- [80:41]
Todd McShay
And last year he, he played. He had a few handful of starts, but 21 starts between last year. All right, 89 tackles, 12 pass breakups, just one interception. Not a great ball. Hawk took a few PIs. I'm not gonna lie to you. He does some grabbing. We got him. We got to work on that. But I'm talking about like a third round draft pick. Someone who's 6 foot 195 pounds, 31 and 31 and 58 inch arm length. Ran a 442-explosive lower body. And he. I, I just, I think I see a lot of the same stuff with these. Some of these other guys like the upside is there big nickel starter, surprisingly sounding coverage, excellent underneath zone. And man, he's not just a slot cover guy though he can hold up on the perimeter I gave him. I think Tykee Smith, the Buccaneers third round pick last year is a perfect example. Impact and run support. Tyke was this guy can be his versatility. Ran a 446 just similar time to Hancock. I Hancock's my new branch. San Restreal, Petrie, whatever you want to call it. Freaking underrated. I like him, love it. Other guy that I really liked. Caleb Ransaw, Tulane. I had not done his tape before last week. Did not realize the, the joy, the joy of an adventure that I was getting into with my buddy Caleb. Played three years at Troy. Transferred to Tulane this past year. I just didn't. It just wasn't so like you get added to the list and I got 150. Yeah. So I just the quarterbacks and all these other guys. So I finally got to him one season at Tulane, 12 games. Not huge numbers. Right. He's fast, not quick. All right. And I'm not saying he's elite. I'm saying late day two, early day three, but he's five 11 and 38, almost 200 pounds. Okay. Arms 30 and three quarters. Excellent tackler. Plays the same role in that two lane. You remember watching P P's tape. What like there's certain guys that are engraved in my. That son of a. Would hang out by the. He would hang out.
- [83:18]
Steve Mensch
That's the player we're talking about though. You have to play the run to be in that. That spot. Jaylen Petri is perfect example.
- [83:24]
Todd McShay
Yes. And. And Petrie was like this little like Mazda Miata among Mack trucks.
- [83:34]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [83:34]
Todd McShay
And he would be and. And chop off your knees.
- [83:40]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [83:40]
Todd McShay
But before you could even think about what the hell is going on, he would have you. He would torpedo you.
- [83:46]
Steve Mensch
He's in. Yeah, he's. He lived on the other side of the line of scrimmage as a defensive back. Mean, he flew up.
- [83:52]
Todd McShay
Now the difference is this guy's fast, not quick. So. But he, but he's 43 3, bud. He's 433 fast and he's an awesome tackler. So now I got a well tightly packed 433 guy who can tackle. So at the very minimum. I know I'm getting a great special teams player and someone who can help out some, some sub packages early in his career. And if things go well, I just found myself the next one of the next guys. The Branches, the Petrie's, the Sanders. I mean this list is stupid, man. Garrett Williams, Byron Murphy, Dax Hill, Greg Newsome, Marlon Humphrey, Tyche Smith, Taron Johnson, Tar Heeb, still Michael Carter, you know.
- [84:40]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, it's a good list.
- [84:42]
Todd McShay
I'm not saying he's going to be one of those guys, but he's, he's got a chance to be one of those guys. All right. Where you want to take it?
- [84:51]
Steve Mensch
Jacob Parrish, the kid from Kansas State. I am a fan. He's small, he's, you know, 5, 9, 6, 191. He's got some shorter arms, but I think if you look back at his 20, 23 tape, he showed that he can play the ball pretty well. He had three picks that year. No, he had four picks that year. I'm sorry. 4, 3, 5 speed, 1 5, 110 yard split. He's quick. I love the way he turns and runs and competes in press. He's quick. He's got good change of direction. He can match up underneath. I think he'll make an immediate impact on special teams. I think he's got to cover kicks as well. So he's, he's a player that. In that again, we're talking about the middle round range. I wouldn't put him up in the elite. I also have to give you, I'll give you some flowers and then I'm going to ask you a question about a player.
- [85:39]
Todd McShay
Player.
- [85:40]
Steve Mensch
I am. All aboard the Upton Stout train. All aboard. I, I am kicking you off the bandwagon. I'm gonna do with Upton style what you did with Amari and Hampton to me, where you just all of a sudden he's your player.
- [85:54]
Todd McShay
Yeah, I did.
- [85:55]
Steve Mensch
So he, I'm taking, I'm gonna take Stout. It's not even his high profile. So you're probably fine with the trade. He doesn't. He's not as fast or as explosive as Harrison, but he's got those hips. His, his ability to, to open up and change directions is really stood out to me. He's a guy who's going to be great in underneath coverage over slot receivers because he's quick and he can and he's got oily hips. But the other thing about him is he's got that Petri toughness, man. He likes to come up and play the run he's going to fight off blocks he's going to chase. So I'm all the, all western Kentucky that nickel. I think some people he did play safety, some people have him as listed as a safety but he's a nickel. So if you want to call him a safety, you want to call him a corner, it doesn't really matter. Tough against the run. So another player I really like in that middle round range, the guy that keeps I, I see a lot of people like and you have him here I think at the bottom of your list at 15. So I'm not saying that you have them too high but the Noel Williams came from Cal.
- [86:55]
Todd McShay
I put him down the fourth round. I had to come up with 15.
- [87:00]
Steve Mensch
Here's what I really like about his game. He is excellent at locating the ball late. He does a great job of snapping.
- [87:08]
Todd McShay
Fast eyes, good instincts.
- [87:10]
Steve Mensch
Really good job of avoiding. He had seven picks. I think he led the country with picks this year. So the ball skills are obviously there. Does a really good job of, of turning around locating and avoiding pass interference calls. There's one play where he was in trail and he just looked at the last second turned around and the ref's like, you know I can't call that he's looking for the ball so that there's some stuff to like about his game. He got torched against Auburn. He had two picks in that game.
- [87:36]
Todd McShay
He got torched I saw, I saw.
- [87:38]
Steve Mensch
Against Auburn and he gets beat underneath and again if you're looking at a developmental guy who plays the ball well and all I get drafting this kid.
- [87:47]
Todd McShay
I don't get drafted that early. I don't I. With him I got the opposite. To me he's more be the right.
- [87:53]
Steve Mensch
Scheme maybe he's played.
- [87:56]
Todd McShay
He's been in a lot of wars. 52 games played, 50 starts, 25 career PBUs, 14 career picks. Returned a kick 80 yards for a touchdown last year, two fumble returns, recoveries for touchdowns. Smart numbers are great but, but smart, instinctive, all those things but I don't see a ton of like upside. He's a four or five guy. Shorter arms than like than desirable. I, I think you kind of know what you're getting. Probably bring him in a fourth round range four yeah and you're beginning a sub package guy.
- [88:37]
Steve Mensch
Yeah he's an all or nothing player. I feel like he's either gonna make.
- [88:40]
Todd McShay
A great play, he's not gonna be a wasted. Yeah I, I don't disagree. I just don't like a lot of the guys after, to be honest, like Denzel Burke, Jaylen Smith, Dorian Strong, Kobe Bryant, Justin Wally Zaf Frazier.
- [88:57]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, Dorian Strong's an interesting player. The kid from Virginia Tech, he's got to play in his own heavy scheme. He cannot, he cannot match up cover wise but elite.
- [89:06]
Todd McShay
He's.
- [89:06]
Steve Mensch
He can be an elite zone corner. His instincts, the way he tracks the ball.
- [89:10]
Todd McShay
Receiver too.
- [89:11]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. The way he kill, the way he just plays the ball. Has a feeling for route combinations, doesn't he? Never guards grass, man. He never gets caught garden grass. He's, he's an interesting player who you can get in the middle rounds for the right team. He won't work everywhere.
- [89:28]
Todd McShay
All right, safeties, let's get to it. Not a great class, not a bad one. But it's not like, you know, you look at the, the three year tally, we always have one in the first round, the last, not always average one in the first round, 2.7 in the second round. We're gonna get two in the first. It looks like two in the second and probably three in the third. It'd be my guess, I think. I mean, let's start with the top two. We all know it's Malachi Starks and Nick Eman. Worry.
- [89:58]
Steve Mensch
Okay, It's Nicki Minwarian. Malachi Starks, got it for you.
- [90:06]
Todd McShay
I want to say this, and I don't want to get into some deep long thing. We're an hour and a half in. His Malachi Starks combine workout has to be concerning. I get it. Only four, only four safeties ran slower than his 450 he ran. He had ran the slowest three cone 726 of all the safeties.
- [90:30]
Steve Mensch
That's way more concerning than 40 time.
- [90:33]
Todd McShay
Ran the slowest short shuttle four four five of all the safeties had the third worst vertical jump. So now it's a lower body, explosiveness, speed, lateral agility, body like just didn't test well. Okay.
- [90:50]
Steve Mensch
Yep.
- [90:52]
Todd McShay
I just love his tape. I just love his tape. I think he's. He had three or four plays.
- [91:00]
Steve Mensch
I was going to say that got.
- [91:02]
Todd McShay
Everyone to say, oh, he's a safety. And they were in a couple of them were in big moments or big games and all the eyes of the country were on him. But the way he moves and his play speeds better than that 40. And he covers ground quickly. Everything's smooth and easy and fluid. His transitions competitive at the catch point. Six interceptions, 22 breakups active and run supports fills it. He's just. To me, he's the best all around. Like this is the, this is truly like case study. Let's look back in two, three years. Tape versus the measurables.
- [91:50]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. Trust the tape, man. Always trust the tape.
- [91:54]
Todd McShay
I trusted the tape with Kirby Joseph. I was, I gave him an early round two grade. I wanted to give him a first. The numbers didn't all line up and, and look at what, what Kirby Joseph's doing now. Kirby Joseph was my guy in that class. He went in the third. He's been awesome and I've missed on plenty. I'm not just. But he, it reminds me of that where it's like, just trust your eyes, Todd. Trust your eyes. Now. Icky. Nick E. Minwori, I want you to give. He is your guy. Since August, you've been wearing my ass out. And you were on him way before. No, but in a good way. In a good way, right? I didn't know I. I hadn't done his tape. You love him. And I want you to explain to people for, for those teams that are. We're talking about first round pick. No. 1 in the world was. You were like, I think it's crazy, but I'm going to put them in my top 32. And no. Nobody in the world besides Steve Metsch in this, this small little bubble on this, this rock that spins round with billions of people in a tiny little bubble that we live. Right. But no one in that tiny little bubble was talking about this guy. And you were last August. So I want to give you your flowers there and I want to give you the, the floor to explain to all the positives. And then I'm not going to tear them down. I'm just going to point out why. The why and the, you know, the counter to some of it.
- [93:25]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. Okay. So I'll leave that to you. Obviously this kid, I. I had him before the combine workout. So. I mean, long before the combine workout, like you said. I had him going into the 2024 season and I just saw it on tape of a guy with a unique size, speed, combination on tape. But also the versatility, I think to do anything you might ask of his safety. He could play in the box. He can match up with tight ends. He's competitive in zone and over the slot because of the way he can use his length to reroute guys and then he can play high because of his range. He plays. He's an excellent, excellent ball skills. The one negative I will say was I was a little concerned about some of the tackling this year. I thought he could have been cleaner There. But this guy can be a big hitter. He's got a big tackling range because of that, that frame and that length again. And it's like I said earlier this year, when you're going into, into a general manager's office, they don't want to hear about what a guy can't do. They want to hear about what a guy can do. And when I'm projecting this guy, I'm not talking about, you know, this is what he was. I'm talking about what he will be for our team. And if you're, I'm telling you he's going to make us multiple. He's going to allow us to do things that other players just won't allow you to do. And if we can unlock his full potential, I mean, watch out. I think Kyle Hamilton, I mean another 6 foot 3 safety, these guys are unique in that they're, they're so tall. But we've seen that a tall safeties can, can do well.
- [94:52]
Todd McShay
I see all those things and I do think in the right scheme, utilized the right way, this guy's going to be an absolute difference maker. I truly do. I, I just have, I've, I've had a few reservations and again he's in my top 32. He's got a first round grade so they ain't that big. But it's not as clean as you might want it to be. I'm concerned and I put this in my report. Pre snap focus and decisiveness. At times I didn't feel like I was watching a player who was always dialed in.
- [95:27]
Steve Mensch
That's really right.
- [95:31]
Todd McShay
No.
- [95:32]
Steve Mensch
You don't think so?
- [95:34]
Todd McShay
No, I, because I saw a guy that just kind of would check in a little bit and like, and then, and then you go watch a guy like Xavier Watts and you watch a guy like Malachi Starks. Okay. And I'll get, I'll pull it all together, I promise.
- [95:47]
Steve Mensch
Okay.
- [95:47]
Todd McShay
And, and then, and then I watch. There's certain plays where he absolutely the, the motor and the like. But then there's plays where I'm like, huh, could have gotten a little more out of him. Okay. There's inconsistencies with his aggressiveness and support period. I don't like unless I'm watching the wrong number. 21 on South Carolina. There's inconsistencies with his aggressiveness and support.
- [96:12]
Steve Mensch
I know you didn't watch the wrong guy, but he's, he's seven, I think 21's Kilgore.
- [96:16]
Todd McShay
Oh, 21. No, that's from His. That's actually funny.
- [96:20]
Steve Mensch
That's from a year ago, maybe a year before.
- [96:22]
Todd McShay
Yeah, that's from the year ago that was.
- [96:23]
Steve Mensch
I know you didn't watch the wrong guy, but I don't want people watching this to be like that.
- [96:27]
Todd McShay
Dad and she watch the wrong guy. That's how. That's what I get. That's what I get. Karma. And so I talked to some people in the league who have done the digging and all that, and there's some like you're gonna have. He needs to be drafted somewhere with some veterans and some guys who are going to make sure we're channeling everything and putting in the right direction. Let's just put it that way. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. There's.
- [96:58]
Steve Mensch
What's your grade on him right now?
- [97:00]
Todd McShay
It's a 90. It's first round. Late first round, though.
- [97:03]
Steve Mensch
When you hear something, I mean, I have him as. Maybe I have less first round grades than you. I have my 21st best player. I have an 89 on him.
- [97:10]
Todd McShay
That is funny too.
- [97:12]
Steve Mensch
That is weird, right? I just, I recognize it. I, I see it. I just, I'm excited about his future. And I. Again, I thought he was a first round player the whole, the whole way through.
- [97:25]
Todd McShay
Yeah. So that's that. But I, I'm telling, like, I didn't think Cam Chancellor was going to be worth a damn. And then he got in the right system and Legion of boom and look what he did.
- [97:33]
Steve Mensch
Right. It's true.
- [97:35]
Todd McShay
Now it's different reasons. It's different reasons. So like it, you know, everything's an individual case study. But I'm just saying some guys don't fit in a lot of schemes, but if they fit in the one they're in, look out. And this guy has lookout traits. Look out. And the thing, I, I'll say this on the bright side.
- [97:55]
Steve Mensch
Seattle or Miami, I want to see him in Seattle or Miami, but go ahead.
- [97:58]
Todd McShay
Yeah, I could say both. I did have a lot of respect for like playing 15 yards off, whether it was in a, in like a too high look or quarters coverage. And when he would match with the receiver on like a post corner or post, his ability to open up for that height, that was. That's what Cam didn't have. So I. The safety picture became real clear in the last 72 hours for me, man. Kevin Winston, I didn't get to see him play much ball. He played one game from Penn.
- [98:36]
Steve Mensch
Glad you're bringing him up, man.
- [98:38]
Todd McShay
Played one game, had partially torn ACL in game two. So I get to see one full game and 14 freaking snaps of game two before he partially tore his ACL. But he returned healthy on March 28th or pro day and he ran a four, five. It's six one and a half and 215 pounds with 32 and a half inch arms. And I watch him on tape and I see someone who's really good in coverage. He's tall, he's long, he's athletic. And I wrote in all caps, fast, fast eyes. This guy reads the quarterback. He gets early breaks. The first clip I watched of him back in 2023 was, I forget who it was now. I broke on the ball right in front of him. USC or I forget size fluid for size. Like I just now aggressive rap. Here's the thing, I'd like to see him maybe get like a little bit stronger. I think he gets stuck on blocks. He's got it. He's gonna have to improve. But talk about rapping. He's got those long arms. He wraps up. I here's one thing and I see it every year, but I'm reminded when I sit down and actually watch tape after tape after tape after safeties, it's kind of like I was bitching with the linebackers, right? No one can take on a block anymore. Man, these safety suck at tackling.
- [100:02]
Steve Mensch
Okay.
- [100:03]
Todd McShay
Compared to what it used to be. Bad angles, short arms with some of these guys just like it's, I don't know.
- [100:12]
Steve Mensch
But I will tell you, it is a difficult thing to do though. It is a difficult thing to do, but go ahead.
- [100:18]
Todd McShay
And it's why it's the hardest position to evaluate.
- [100:20]
Steve Mensch
I'm seeing the exact same thing as you, though. Safety's missed tackles. This seems a higher rate than normal.
- [100:26]
Todd McShay
So when I watch the next two guys on my list and it's probably part of the reason, maybe I'm just old and, and like yearn for like guys that can. But when I watch Kevin Winston as my third rated safety and I watch Xavier Watts is my fourth rated safety, there's one tie that binds with those guys. They will wrap up and they are reliable, you know, and that's why, that's not the only reason I mentioned all the other reasons with Winston and you can get in because Watts is your guy. Get into all the other reason. But those two guys, I can trust them tackling.
- [101:05]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, I listen, I, I, I really like Watts. I think Winston, I haven't done it yet. I mean, I'm fascinated that you've done it. I really believe that I'm gonna put Winston the head of Watts.
- [101:16]
Todd McShay
Oh, I did it.
- [101:17]
Steve Mensch
Ah, man, that's the, that knee injury is one of the most that's in. We'll get into Jalen Reed, I think, in a minute. But he, I thought that Kevin Winston was a way better safety prospect when they were on the field together.
- [101:32]
Todd McShay
It's not even close. It's not even close.
- [101:34]
Steve Mensch
It's not really close, actually.
- [101:35]
Todd McShay
You know, I'm watching with number two. I'm watching a starter, right?
- [101:41]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [101:42]
Todd McShay
I'm watching a starting safety and impact guy.
- [101:45]
Steve Mensch
Right.
- [101:46]
Todd McShay
But I'm watching one, I'm watching a guy who's, who's probably like sub package do some different things.
- [101:51]
Steve Mensch
Right. I think Watts ball production for Xavier Watts, the safety from Notre Dame, is something that stands out. You know, intercepted 30 passes.
- [102:00]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [102:01]
Steve Mensch
And that. And I think that he's got smaller hands. I think it really speaks to his instincts more than anything else. Again, I use 30. Thirteen. Did I say 30? No, I said yeah. Yeah.
- [102:14]
Todd McShay
I was like, what?
- [102:15]
Steve Mensch
Okay, that would be, I think that would be some kind. That's got to be some kind of a record 13 interceptions for Xavier Watts out of Notre Dame. Again, speaks to his instincts more than anything else. He is. I, I. Something that's been really jumping out to me watching these defensive backs is how well do they track the ball over and over again, I'm trying to watch how well guys locate and track the ball. And that's something that he's really good at. I think he's a, a good tackler. I don't think he's going to come down and hit anyone in the mouth. I think he's very solid in that. I think that when you watch Xavier Watts over and over again, I think the word that maybe does and I do not mean this in a. The word that maybe comes out after playmaker. I don't mean this as a put down, is steady. I think he's smart. I think he plays well. I don't think he's special.
- [103:04]
Todd McShay
I, yeah, I totally agree. I totally. And that's why I dropped him down to number four safety, even though I just really like him.
- [103:12]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [103:14]
Todd McShay
Billy Bowman. I've got, I struggle with Billy Bowman because I absolutely love the dude. I love the way he plays. I see his limitations, though. And you talk about guys who are really great at tackling at my number three and number four safety, Billy Bowman is misses a ton of tackles and you can't always see short arms on guys. I see it that I would ar like he can't what I know why long arms are important to corner because it's a ball up in the air and contested and you get one quarter of a step out of phase. And that can be the difference in the, in a PBU or a, or a 60 yard touchdown right at safety. It's more important. I would not more but like it. It's emphasized on tape more with the tackling because you got a lot of times where you're coming in at one angle and there's someone coming at that and then at the last set because they got a little Runway on you. It's the hardest position, you said it before. The hardest position to tackle because you got this Runway and you got that Runway and you're converging and the guy with the ball gets to decide whether he's going left over you or right, you know. And so you've. There's so many times on tape that a safety is coming in as hot as he can to get in position to cut him off the pursuit angle and all of a sudden it's like back the other way. And the only thing between you and 10 more yards or 40 more yards and a touchdown is an arm. And when Your arm is 28 and a half inches watching my screen versus 32 inches, it's a big deal. It becomes a big deal. I love, let me tell you about Billy Bowman Jr. Though. His reaction skills are excellent. Foot quickness all over the place. Plays his ass off. All right. And I love too like the stories are legend. He walks around campus in the facility with a tendencies book and he's color coded like you can see it. He's a maniac and he loves ball. And that doesn't fail in the NFL. It doesn't. 5, 9 and a half, 192, 28 and a half inch arms. All that stuff can fail in the NFL. But it doesn't fail now. Does it mean he can be a starter and overcome all of it? I don't know. I honest I don't know. But I know this. I'm getting a great special teams player, someone who's going to contribute somehow on defense in sub packages and hopefully all the work in the preparation and the effort and everything lays on the field is going to land him in the right spot at the right time with the right coordinator and the right defense with the guys up front. He needs to to just do what he does. But I liked him a little bit more off than I did like in that Petri Roll, even though he does a little bit of both. He played 500 snaps in and around the body. He actually played like middle linebacker a bunch too. But let me get to this. And this is your player, so I'm going to let you go on. I am officially on board with Jonas Sanker. Almost to the point where I put him.
- [106:28]
Steve Mensch
I think it's a Jonas Sanker we keep getting.
- [106:30]
Todd McShay
Sorry, Sorry. Jonas. Jonas Yanis. I apologize. Jonas. I apologize. And I was beating the drum on the Jonas thing too.
- [106:36]
Steve Mensch
He misses some tackles too, but.
- [106:38]
Todd McShay
Oh, I didn't think it. Hold on.
- [106:41]
Steve Mensch
They all do. They all do. But the way he plays the. His.
- [106:46]
Todd McShay
Yes, he does miss some time, but he comes with a third thud.
- [106:49]
Steve Mensch
205 tackles over the past two seasons.
- [106:51]
Todd McShay
Big strong. Here's the thing with Jonas, okay. And his, his combine got him some attention. He, he has 32 and a half and a quarter inch arms at 6 foot and 38 inches. 206 pounds. He ran a 4, 4, 8, which is really good time for him. And for that size 30 sec. Six and a half inch vertical jump was seventh tied for third and a broad jump 10 8. But here's the thing that I love about him. Deep half field, he's completely. We're not. We can't put him in center field. Deep half, bring him down closer to the box. But when the plays in front of him, his eyes are so damn fast. There were so many. It was like. It was almost like watching a highlight reel. But it wasn't. It was like going through all the key plays where he, you know, point of contact plays, plant, drive close, thud, plant, drive close. You know, like early reaction plant. And he. For a bigger guy, I mean, he's not huge but like he's got good size. He does. But his pedal, like getting out of his pedal, he explodes.
- [107:59]
Steve Mensch
Did you mention.
- [108:02]
Todd McShay
No.
- [108:03]
Steve Mensch
His 10 yard split I think was tight or was the quickest for the safeties at the combine.
- [108:08]
Todd McShay
That doesn't surprise.
- [108:09]
Steve Mensch
It just. Yeah, that tracks. Right?
- [108:10]
Todd McShay
That actually. And I didn't see, I didn't put in my notes and I'm gonna make a note right now.
- [108:14]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, that tracks.
- [108:15]
Todd McShay
That tracks.
- [108:16]
Steve Mensch
And he runs the alley with bad intentions. He won't, you know, he might miss a couple tackles, but he's gonna get downhill and he is gonna try and lay you out. He is a physical player. Eight and a half tackles for loss last year, 205 tackles of the best. I mean just those numbers. Those numbers. Then you put the great. I think he flew under the radar a little bit. Virginia has not. Not had a great. Did not have a great year and has not been great in. In quite a while. So a player like that can fly under the radar a little bit. But the numbers are good. I mean, the production's pretty good.
- [108:51]
Todd McShay
Here are some of the notes I wrote from guys I've talked to in the league about them, too. Okay, you want talk? You talk about separators when looking at evaluations. This guy gets it. Talk about a leader, tough, mature, professional.
- [109:09]
Steve Mensch
Oh, that's awesome.
- [109:11]
Todd McShay
Love the way this guy approaches it. This guy gets it. He's everything we're looking for in terms of makeup. Like, those are the things that are being said about Jonas. So anyone else? Let's pull up the. The safeties list. Tucker, if you don't mind. I like Makuba Lean. He can cover play.
- [109:33]
Steve Mensch
He's a nickel, right? He's a nickel, right? I think he's a nickel man. He's tough. He misses some tackles because again, he's. He's not. He does big. He's not a big guy. I think he's gonna be a nickel. I think he can cover, though. He tested well. I think he can cover. He showed he could play the ball this year. I love.
- [109:55]
Todd McShay
I saw more aggressiveness and toughness out of him and I thought he better attack. He was a better tackler than Bowman this year.
- [110:01]
Steve Mensch
I agree with that. I still think that he's not going to be a guy that plays. Plays deeper in the box that much. I think he's going to be a number three. He's going to be a nickel, which is fine.
- [110:10]
Todd McShay
You see, you see the rankings there. So Starks and Emanuera, however you rank them, I think they go mid to late. I think Starks. I think Starks should go first than Imanoara, but we'll see how it plays out. Winston Jr. Is clearly the number three safety for me and Xavier Watts is clearly right behind him. Then I've got that next little like Bowman and Sancher. I honestly is kind of what you're looking for. They couldn't be more different players. I mean, they're both safeties, but, like, one is a thumper box guy in Sanker. The other is Tasmanian devil nickel and can play some free. And then there's Makuba, Jalen Reed from Penn State. The other safety we talked about. I'm not as high on him. Lathan Ransom. This is where the drop off is. Sebastian Castro. People I talk to in the league really like him. So. Like who? If there's anyone there in the list, you want to finish up with. Go ahead.
- [111:05]
Steve Mensch
I like Castro, too, because I think he's smart. I think he plays hard. He's willing to play the run. He's a dude. He will come up and hit. He will fight off of blocks. He's also a guy that, I mean, he had a better year the year before, and he gives up a lot of separation in coverage, and he's going to have a hard time. You know, we talked about the arm length with. With the tackling. The other thing that it comes into play with, with. With safeties is matching up with tight ends. And Castro is one of those guys that I think has shorter arms. He's going to have a harder time matching up. He's going to be. He could be in great position and still not be able to make the play. But I get why people like him. He's instinctive. He does a good job of undercutting routes and coverage. He can play the ball. I just think there's enough of. There's enough flaws there that he's probably going to drop into the middle rounds. I think people coming to the year were a lot higher on him. And I think Lathan Ransom's, you know, similar in some ways. Nathan Ransom, not afraid to come up and play the run. He has a hard time. You saw it against Tyler Warren in the Penn State game where he. He was. He's in perfect position against Tyler Warren, and Tyler Warren's like, oh, thank you, and just takes the ball away from him because Ransom's not. He can't. He can't make those kind of plays consistently. But he's another guy that will run the alley on you, come up and hit you in the mouth. That's Jordan James Morgan. He's. He's a tough dude. Love him in the middle rounds because I think you're getting maybe a number three safety ultimately in a special teams guy.
- [112:25]
Todd McShay
All right, I've got one last little nugget sleeper guy that I'm gonna. I'm gonna get excited about when his name is picked late. And late on day three, we're getting ready to go on live with Rosillo from his house in the seventh round to review the whole draft. Gonna be wearing out. Rosillo eating all his food, drinking all his drinks. And we're gonna hear a name called. I do want to remind people. Live Stream first round of the draft. Come join us. Man, forget the. Put it on the background. Listen, like, get us on your phones. Screw it. Get us on your big screens. We're gonna have fun. Get two TVs, whatever you got to.
- [113:06]
Steve Mensch
Do, whatever you got.
- [113:07]
Todd McShay
But we're live streaming the first night of the draft. Live streaming the second round of the draft. We're gonna have shows all freaking week in LA. The draft ends in LA, all right? And subscribe to the McShay Report. You want to get subscribed now? Get the all satellite team. And Thursday we got Mach 3.0 coming out. And I like, my brain is free. The calls are being made and all the evaluations are done. Mach 3.0 is setting the table for the final mock. And we're getting close. Here's my last nugget. Keaton Crawford, man from Nevada. I don't mind.
- [113:43]
Steve Mensch
Okay.
- [113:44]
Todd McShay
Breakout year and breakout year in 2024. Like them in the slot. Plays the ball really well. Powerful hitter, can run 5, 10 and a half. 202. Ran a 4 4, 1 at the combine. Third fastest 40 of the safeties, 41 and a half inch vertical, second of the safeties. And Eamon worry is barely human. Barely human. What he did. And a 10, 8 broad jump tied for third. I saw the light coming on this year. Best football might be in front of him. Really stood out at the Hula Bowl. Blew up the combine. Explosive traits to work with and developed. Give me him in round five. Kind of sneak that pick in while everyone's like doing the snack break and worrying about the training table and doing their interviews for the ESPN and ABC and NFL Network. The GMs are out of the room. I'm just gonna sneak that pick in in round five and I might have something there.
- [114:50]
Steve Mensch
You know, you're getting special teams right away. He was at Texas before Nevada, right? I mean he was a. He was a. Yeah.
- [114:57]
Todd McShay
Yep. But the light seem like. Seem to finally come on. Doesn't. The light doesn't come on at the same point in time for every single young man. Look at me. It's still dull. Yeah, we're working on it, but. But it's going to come on. And it might come on. Draft week in la. Live stream all weekend long starting Thursday with the first round of the draft. We're going to be there all week. Thursday we're back with Mach 3.0. Any teasers?
- [115:25]
Steve Mensch
You got anything? You got any. You're like, you know, teasers.
- [115:28]
Todd McShay
We started the show with odds and phone calls and all. Like you get the sense where I'm going. But it's. It's Monday night and I don't write this thing till about Wednesday and Connor and Dan are gonna throw up when they hear that, but I'm gonna write it in a half hour before we go live.
- [115:44]
Steve Mensch
Look at it like Wednesday at 11:45pm.
- [115:49]
Todd McShay
No. All right. We appreciate you all, truly. Yes.
- [115:53]
Steve Mensch
Thank you.
- [115:53]
Todd McShay
We're having fun. I hope you're having fun with us. Stick, stick around. We're gonna have a lot of fun as we wrap up this draft process the next few weeks and until Thursday. Hope you hope you enjoyed it later, buddy. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18+ and present in D.C. gambling problem, call 1-800- gambler or visit RG D help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit MD gambling help.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit Gambling Helpline ma.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1877 ate Hope NY or text Hope NY in New York.