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The McShay Show
What I’m Hearing on Shedeur Sanders and Will Johnson. Plus, Offensive Line Tiers, Comps, and Tape Study.
01:52:29
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- [00:00]
Todd McShay
This episode is brought to you by no Bull. Every day is an opportunity to grow stronger, especially when you've got best in class award winning footwear backing you up. No bowl is a footwear brand for training and for daily life built to support you in your pursuit of physical, mental and emotional strength. And get this exclusive for the McShay show listeners. No bull is offering 30% off your order. Visit nobleproject.com SL MC for 30% off your entire order. That's N o B u L L P r o j e c t.com backslash McShay for 30% off. It's the McShay show presented by FanDuel. It's our time. It's officially NFL Draft season and you can get in on all the action with FanDuel. FanDuel has lots of ways to bet on the draft, like pick, position, team to draft a player, exact order, top five and 10 picks, and so much more. When you win, you get paid instantly. FanDuel always has exclusive offers. The app is safe, secure and easy to use. So download FanDuel Sportsbook app today and make every moment more during the NFL draft, the ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg d help.com to learn more about the resources and help lines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 and older and present in select states. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit RG D help.com huge show today. NFL draft boards are getting set this week. General managers are starting to trade information like currency. So we'll share what we can share from some interesting conversations had this weekend. Plus.
- [01:52]
Steve Mensch
I'll tell you what the plus is, mce. It's time to finally do the deep dive into the most important position in all of football, the offensive line. I cannot wait to talk about these graceful glad years. It's only 10 days to the draft. Mch. You good?
- [02:06]
Todd McShay
I'm good.
- [02:07]
Steve Mensch
Drop that beat, Tucker. Hey.
- [02:25]
Todd McShay
All right. I'm clearly in for it today. I love it. It's. I mean, Mitch has been waiting patiently, stalking his prey, letting me rant and go an hour and a half, an hour and 50 minutes when I should only go 50 to an hour. But today's his day. But of course, before we get to all of that offensive line stuff that he's so anxiously awaited for, I. I've got some stuff to share. Okay, first of all, thank you for joining. Thanks for being a part of this. We couldn't be more thrilled about what's Going on. We've got three shows this week, men, so stay tuned. Follow us on, on Instagram, on x. I'm @mcshade13 on x&t. Mcshade13 on Instagram. Men's what are your, what are your handles at?
- [03:09]
Steve Mensch
You good mensch. It's M U E N C H.
- [03:12]
Todd McShay
All right, so that's where you can find us this week. We'll keep you posted with all the, the scheduling stuff. But I can't express to you the excitement we have on Sunday. A good friend mention I jump on the bird all the way out to the west coast. We're going to be out in la. They've opened up the studios there. I don't. Is it Hollywood, Beverly Hills, whatever it is, it's. The studios are too beautiful and wonderful, wonderful for us. But we're gonna depart from here and we're going to absolutely take over those studios on all throughout the week. Then we've got a live show streaming for the first night of the draft. Okay, an hour before we're going to tell you all the information, all the news, all the stuff going on of the mock draft come out the day before. On Wednesday we'll have a show that comes out first thing Thursday morning covering that mock draft. Then the night of the draft, day one of the draft next Thursday, we will be there one hour before to tell you all the information we're hearing, what's the latest scuttlebutt, if you will. And then the second night will be right back there in the studios. First round, the first round of that night, which will be round two of the draft. We'll be there for a good portion. Then we'll have a wrap up show after Friday night. We'll talk about all 32 teams, what they've accomplished, what's still to accomplish on Saturday. Then Saturday we'll be watching the NFL draft from Ryan Rosillo's house. He called me the other day. Men, I'm getting nervous. He's trying to back out. It ain't happening, Ryan. It ain't happening. Okay? I'm going to get him to run a 40 yard dash somehow.
- [04:42]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, we'll see about that. I, I want to see the 40.
- [04:45]
Todd McShay
We're, we're going to steal his food, we're going to drink his drinks. We're going to watch the, the, the third and final day of the draft and then the seventh round when everyone's talking about guards from Kennesaw State and everywhere else and it's the same voices you've had to hear for three straight days, come back with us. We're going to be there. We're excited to share it. We're going to have a lot of fun men. Myself, Rosillo, we're going to break down all 32 teams. We're going to do start the review show there. What's happened on Saturday, what's the biggest picks, where some of these quarterbacks like Will Howard and Riley Leonard and Dylan Gabriel go, where are some of the running backs that are left over and all the other positions. But most importantly, we're going to start talking about the teams, what they've done to help themselves. Okay, so that's the schedule. That's how it lines up. There's been a lot of stuff going on and, and I say that and I open this whole thing by saying draft boards are getting set this week. Had a lot of conversations over the weekend. This past weekend's probably the second most conversations I have with people in the NFL. Next weekend before we fly out. It's going to be complicated on Sunday, man. Easter Sunday, it's going to be complicated because it's Easter and we're flying out to Los Angeles. But I'm still gonna have a lot of texts and a lot of calls Friday and Saturday. I've already got nine calls lined up. Nine. We're gonna have all the information, as much as you can have, as much as teams are kind of pedaling around right now. But some information came out. First thing that jumped out to me was just about everyone I talked to this weekend. Mensch wanted to talk about, hey, Will Johnson's working out. Michigan cornerback, top 15 player on a lot of teams, boards, had the lower body injuries he's dealt with throughout his career. Finally was able to work out and he did so this morning. On Monday morning. Okay. I was told leading up he's going to do everything but the 40 yard dash. Here's the other little nugget I was told from multiple people in the league he's been running 40s in training and working out, but was running in the high four fives. One team said he had, they had gotten reports low four sixes. Is that important? I mean it's not ideal. And I was told by multiple teams he's going to do everything but the 40 yard dash. For obvious reasons, he doesn't want if he's running a 4, 5, 8. We saw Az Thomas, Florida State cornerback. I've talked to multiple teams that thought he was going to go late. First he ran a 4, 5, 8 at his pro day. Now the difference is Will Johnson is at his best when he studied him on tape. Eyes forward, playing the ball in front of him, giving cushion. Eyes forward, reading the Think about the pick sixes, the one against Marvin Harrison Jr. The Fresno State 1 this year. His best plays seemed to be when he's backed off in cushion survey. He's an absolute sniper with his eyes on the quarterback, right? But when he turns and runs and we went through all the plays when we did the deep dive in the cornerback position, when he turns and runs back to the quarterback, lacking the recovery speed, gets a little bit lost, pass interferences, beat deep, those sorts of things. So then you start to look at the mock draft, right? You start to look at the teams that need corner. You start to look at the teams that play zone heavily, right? Those are the teams where he fits the workouts by all accounts. Here's what I have for you. 37 inch vertical jump. Would have been tied for six at the combine. That's good. Lower body explosiveness. See it on tape. Matches up four, three, three Short shuttle. Surprised he ran that. Only four cornerbacks at the combine this year ran a short shuttle. Wasn't required. Wasn't running a 40. Could have just done position drills, jumps. He did. Ran a 4, 3, 3. That's the 13th percentile of what cornerbacks have run, you know, over, over time. Slower than the four corners that actually did run the short shuttle at the combine. Smooth and drills is the report I got, you know, showed he's a smooth mover. He's not like the most sudden and explosive and fast, but he's a smooth like good in his pedal, good in his turns kind of. He didn't blow people away was the report I got. But look the part for the type of cornerback that he is. San Francisco would be the first team where I think he'd even be in the conversation. Picking at 11. They run his own scheme kind of man zone. Charvarius Ward just left. I gave him an NFL comp similar to Charvarius Ward somewhere in that neighborhood, I don't think. I think with the offensive line, defensive line needs. He's not going to go at 11 overall after that though, is where I think he'll kind of come and play somewhere in that 12 to let's say 17, 19 range. What are your thoughts? Anything?
- [09:31]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. Why did he test at all if he knew he had to have some sense that these numbers were going to be where they were, why not just say I'm not fully back from the injury yet. I think players do this all the time. You know, you don't have to run. He doesn't have to do those. And my concern might be is, and I don't know if you've gotten any sense of this. Did the medical have any kind of impact on these numbers? Is he's not all the way back? Is he trying to do something, you know, is he trying to improve his stock and, and do something that he really shouldn't be doing? At this point, I'm not as concerned as you. When I watch the tape about his speed, I don't think it's that big of an issue, but when I hear that number, I start to get more concerned about it. So I just don't know why you would put those numbers out there if you knew that that's the range they were going to be in.
- [10:11]
Todd McShay
Yeah, I mean, it is what it is.
- [10:13]
Steve Mensch
You, you know, who's leaking that he's running four fives and four sixes. I mean, I don't know, but if.
- [10:18]
Todd McShay
NFL teams are, if NFL teams are getting it and guys that are going to be in the, the draft night and, or like he's got a bad.
- [10:24]
Steve Mensch
Team, if that's getting out, man, Like, I don't.
- [10:26]
Todd McShay
These are not area scouts with an ax to grind or something. This is coming from the highest level.
- [10:30]
Steve Mensch
No, no. Yeah, I, I trust it. But for his team to let that number get out there is to me, what's, what's happening here. It just doesn't add up for me.
- [10:39]
Todd McShay
Had he, had he come out and run, I would have said, well, teams are getting the wrong information. But they, they specifically told me, I, I was certain based off the information, he wasn't running to 40 today. And that's exactly what happened. So.
- [10:50]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, I'm not questioning your information. I, it just, it's, it's interesting out there. Yeah, yeah.
- [10:55]
Todd McShay
I agree with. You have a tighter inner circle. I agree. A lot of interesting conversations, man. I think that, oh my gosh, so much good stuff and we could do a whole show on it. We will save it. Nothing is earth shattering except this. There is thought. And this is not coming from the Giants themselves. This is coming from other teams that have sources that are working the phones now. Apparently everyone agrees Cam Ward's going number one to Tennessee, Cleveland staying at two. And they're picking Travis Hunter apparently in the last several days. And it's not, no one's saying it's going to happen, but people are telling me, don't close the book on Shador to The Giants at three.
- [11:52]
Steve Mensch
Here we go. The Ruler Toaster. The Shador Sanders Show.
- [11:55]
Todd McShay
I know. And this isn't going to be about Shador. It is. It's either Shador or it's Abdul Carter. And most people think it's going to be Abdul Carter. It's interesting, though, that I think there's like a landscape thing going on here. Shadors, we said he's not going six to Vegas. He's not going seven to the jets, he's not going nine to the Saints. Okay. More information on Shador is I am told and trust your sources or, you know, figure it's lying season and it's lying season and. And it's making its rounds just because. But I tend to trust where I'm getting this information. Mike Tomlin really likes Shador. If he's there at 21, Shador could very well be a Pittsburgh Steeler. And I don't. If Aaron Rodgers is there, I don't think one would have to do with the others. Two different, Two different elements to this. Aaron Rodgers is to win games. Now, drafting Shador Sanders, if he's there at 21 would be to finally get the solution at the most important position for the long term. Okay, excuse me. So there's that. So it's either. This is what people are talking about and they're asking me questions here. What are you hearing? We're hearing this. There seems to be a common thought within league circles that it's either three to the Giants, which a lot of people thought was a dead concept, but it's creeping back in is what I'm told, or it's 21 to the giant to the Steelers. The in between would be a team trading up ahead of Pittsburgh, obviously. And we discussed that a lot in the mock draft show that we recently did, and we appreciate all the support. The numbers were outstanding for that mock draft show. I mean, almost doubled anything we've done before. Like, it's draft season, it's time and the right information is coming, being funnel, funneled through this show and through the McShay report, which you can just Google subscribe to if you care at all about this stuff. Like, it's. I hate to say it's a must read, but, like, if you have interest in this stuff, we're going to give you the information you need. A lot of fun stuff, too. So I don't know. It's fascinating. You know, the other part that's fascinating to me is do you know who had had his fourth and final visit with the Team kind of. Kind of last minute. Abdul Carter with the New England Patriots. Here we are on. On 10 days out from the draft. April 14, 2025, 10 days out from the draft. All of a sudden, Abdul Carter is. The agent doesn't let Abdul Carter travel to Foxborough, Massachusetts, if he thinks there's a chance. So the agents getting the same information that I'm getting that NFL teams are getting that Shador could be in play at three.
- [14:54]
Steve Mensch
I don't.
- [14:54]
Todd McShay
I mean, you don't make the flight.
- [14:56]
Steve Mensch
You don't make the flight unless you think you might have to. Right?
- [14:59]
Todd McShay
Exactly.
- [15:00]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [15:00]
Todd McShay
So that, so that part's fast. So if you're a Patriots fan and you. And you're like, yeah, I like Will. Will Campbell a lot. Offensive tackle. And I'm told it's either Abdul, if he falls to four, or it's Will Campbell. That's another bit of information. Again, not all information is accurate, but it's coming from pretty good sources that just wouldn't say, I, I have a good feeling or sense or a good source on this.
- [15:25]
Steve Mensch
And it adds up, right? What they're saying adds up totally.
- [15:29]
Todd McShay
It's what we've been saying for. For a while. More so on the. Carter could get to four if obviously Shador is the guy. And then Will Campbell we've kind of zeroed in on in the last couple weeks.
- [15:42]
Steve Mensch
Agree.
- [15:43]
Todd McShay
So that part's fascinating. Let's stick with. No, let's go down the line a little bit. Here's just. I listen, you get off these calls. I've got like, look it. I've got like sheets of notes.
- [15:56]
Steve Mensch
Your head's spinning. I got it.
- [15:57]
Todd McShay
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [15:58]
Steve Mensch
In a good way, not in a bad way.
- [15:59]
Todd McShay
Here's my mock draft that if you can see, like, oh, I'm already, you know, X's and checks all over names. And my point is just trying to walk people through as much of the information as I can share. There's some stuff I absolutely cannot share. We'll do our best to give you enough information so nothing surprises you when we come to the first night of the draft. I promise you that if you, if you follow this show and you. You're watching the three shows this week, all five days next week, and the hour leading up to the draft and then the live stream of the draft, you will at least get a sense of the why for everything. Okay. I may not be able to divulge a couple details and things that are. I've sworn to secrecy that put in the vault, but you'll have an understanding of what the mindset is, the thinking process that's going on in these draft rooms. So. So it's either Campbell or Carter at 4. Carter, if available, is the pick. If not, it's Campbell. Then you get to five. Here's an interesting conversation I had with someone and I know other Jalen Walker's my. I just, I would love getting some, some momentum.
- [17:13]
Steve Mensch
You got Jalen Walker getting some buzz.
- [17:15]
Todd McShay
I'm not saying it's momentum one way or the other, but I was told this. It's fun. It's interesting. Know when you talk to people after you release a mock draft, they never read the mock. No, I didn't read mock draft. Then why are you. Then what? Well, yeah, I'm not, I'm not saying that it's like must read and they're passing it around on warm printer paper, but I'm saying it's interesting when I get someone who purposely reaches out like, hey, I saw what you did at five. Just something you might want to throw in your back pocket. James Gladstone, the new general manager of the Jaguars. I talked about Jared Verse, which he did, and it absolutely could. His Rams background, sorry, critical. You know, he was a trusted confidant with less need with the Rams. The general manager of the, of the Rams less need. And, and then Gladstone get. Got the job because of his outstanding work that he did in that Rams personnel department. He's now the general manager of the Jaguars. The reminder I got was Mason Graham, defensive tackle. Obviously defensive tackle is a huge need for Jacksonville. So it makes sense. And we had Graham there for a long time. 32 inch arms. That's the biggest knock on Graham. If you were to, to start, like, what's the number one limitation weakness? Knock. Whatever it is, it would be 32 inch arms. It was, it was kindly pointed out to me, Braden Fisk, the impact that he had with that organization. 31 inch arms. The defensive tackle, former Richmond Spider who went to Wake Forest for a year. Kobe Turner. Great, great dividends paid on that draft pick. 32 inch arms. So two of their interior defensive line with the Rams at Gladstone had a big part in drafting 32 and 31 inch arms. Turner and Fisk respectively. So put that in your back pocket. Yeah, stick. Stick it right there in your back pocket. No one has anything else but Ginty at 6. But everyone's like, if it's so obvious, something tells me it's not going to be, but right. But everything lines up and everyone's like, what else are you hearing? Jets comes down to Memboo and Warren. That's what we've said for a long time. I just, the more I think about what war, the impact they, you know, they packed, they passed on Brock Bowers. Different regime from last year. Obviously that with a mobile quarterback there's been, there's been some buzz about. I don't think the jets are going to take a quarterback at 7. I think we'll get to the quarterback stuff, the, the second tier, if you will. Second wave of quarterbacks. We'll get to that in a little bit and the jets will be included. Couldn't you see Tyler Warren there, though?
- [20:19]
Steve Mensch
Oh, yeah. I mean that's why he's the other name, right?
- [20:22]
Todd McShay
Security. Security guard. Security blanket.
- [20:25]
Steve Mensch
Blanket, yeah.
- [20:26]
Todd McShay
Yeah. He can be a guard too. Yeah. Just something to think about. I, I, I would after conversations, I might lean Warren at 7 over memboo.
- [20:39]
Steve Mensch
Interesting.
- [20:39]
Todd McShay
We'll get to the Membu and some other offensive line stuff a little bit later.
- [20:43]
Steve Mensch
Which one would you take.
- [20:47]
Todd McShay
Warren?
- [20:48]
Steve Mensch
I go Memboo. But I would build that offensive line. Yeah.
- [20:53]
Todd McShay
Edge is about what you think. It's interesting. It's like the, the odd picks are, are the ones that are wreaking havoc and, and some interesting stuff like three if it's, if it's not, if it's Shador, that's fascinating. It. But like the 4 pick, we know it's, it's Carter if he's there, but it's Campbell if he's not. The six pick. Yeah, it's probably Genti, the eighth pick. Yeah, it's going to be an Edge. Jalen Walker seems to be in the club. I'll say this one name that when you start kind of going through the rankings and talking about where do you have them and who and just when you're having conversations, you can always pick up on where they're like, well, yeah, this guy, this, this and this. For the, the Edge guys. This, this, this and this receiver. And you kind of get a sense who you're talking to, how their board lays out. Not on Per. They're not like here. This is how we have our edges. Right. But you kind of get us Mikel Williams name comes up a lot earlier in, in conversations than you would think. I see that more than I, not more than I would think you being maybe the general public. So if Walker, Jalen Walker's gone, it wouldn't shock me if Carolina took the his running mate there, Michael Williams, number nine. Another odd number. Another fascinating spot. Everyone agrees. Here's the thing everyone agrees with my premise that I've pitched to everyone I talked to, that dart makes more sense than Shador with, with Kellen Moore, right? Yep, Got it. Yep. Agree. But no one thought that they were taking a quarter a quarterback at nine. No one, no one I've talked to thought that they actually were going to take a quarterback at nine until. And no one knows yet. But this is the question, probably the question. One of the top three questions I got from other people. Hey, what are you hearing? Does this Derek Carr shoulder thing change what they're going to do? And I'm like, what do you mean change? Like, well, they weren't taking a quarterback at night. All my intel was they were not taking a quarterback at night. Now I don't know the other thing I was told two different times in conversations. You know Mickey, right? Mickey Loomis, general manager. When Mickey's got his eyes set on a guy, hell or high water, he's going to go up and get him. They're picking at 40. And this brings me to my second wave of quarterbacks. Okay. Conversation that I'm having is it's almost like Ward's a lock at one should doors kind of his own entity. It's his own market. It's either three to the Giants, 21 to Pittsburgh or someone's going to trade up ahead of Pittsburgh to get them. Okay, so when you talk to people in the league, the phrase, the phraseology if you will, is that second tier quarterbacks and the same three names in that second tier quarterbacks. Now it doesn't mean the Saints don't like Dart over Shador and some teams have it the other way. But like when people in the league are talking about it, it's like, yeah, Ward's going one Shador's here, here in that range. But the second tier of quarterbacks is creating a lot of, a lot of mileage. Frequent Flyer 5, Frequent Flyer mileage. That's what the. Everyone's saying. A lot of frequent flyer mileage this time of year. Not used that seriously.
- [24:25]
Steve Mensch
Right?
- [24:25]
Todd McShay
Yeah, a lot of mileage. Getting a lot of miles. That's what I kept hearing. A lot of miles for Dart Milroe and Shuck Jackson. Dart Ole Miss Jalen Milroe, Dynamic Explosive 43740 Athlete who throws a beautiful deep ball but could not be any further away in terms of processing and short to intermediate accuracy and touch. And Tyler Schuck, 25 years old, 7 years college ball, 3 season ending injuries, but by all accounts like the maturity ready to play, ready to play mentally, maturity wise. Here was an interesting nugget too, in the conversations I had about Chuck. Absolutely love the kid. One person said, you know, we always have our, our group leaders that are down on the field and walking guys from place to place. They were fascinated by Chuck because he was the only one. All the quarterbacks kind of cutting it up together, staying in their little group. They love the fact that he no quarterback, hung out and talked to and conversed with the wide receiver group more than Chuck. Know where your bread's buttered. And just like the mature, like, like, yeah, I don't need to hang out with these young quarterbacks. Like, I, I want to go find out who the wide receivers are. You know, everyone loves Chuck for the same reasons we love shock. Everyone sees the physical tools, the, the question I got and the reason why people think he's gonna. It's more likely the second round than the first round and because of the Milroe wild card angle, could wind up being the fifth quarterback taken instead of the fourth where I think we both have them ranked. It's tough when you got a 20. Forget the injuries. They're all broken bones. It doesn't seem like something that's going to be a concern long term. Yes, the, yes, the seven years, the age, it hardened him. It gave him maturity. He knows himself. He understands who he is. He's coming in the league. He's ready to contribute. He's ready to walk into an NFL quarterback room and actually be a contributing part of that room and not be this little pup that has to be brought along. Like that's what everyone's like. Like he'll walk in right away, get along with the guys. Maturity level that most of these other guys kind of have to be brought along and, you know, but I got this comment and it actually rings true. It's not that he's 25, Todd, it's that he's 25 and he's only had one full season as a starter. So where am I going to get my man some reps and how long do I. You know what I mean? Yeah, I don't know. Just. I don't care.
- [27:07]
Steve Mensch
I get, I get the one year starting, though, that's a concern for any quarterback. So I get that. I don't. For me, the age these guys are going to play. I think he's going to play 10 years in the league easily. He could play longer than that if everything goes well, everything goes as expected. I'm not super concerned about the age, but the, the one year starting thing is a real thing. We've talked about it a lot on the show. It just, it's a thing. You have to play ball, man. And by all accounts, you know, we talk to him, he processes well. He picked up that offense really well. He's played in a bunch of different schemes. Smart kid. All of those things are true. It's still one of those things. The back of your mind that, that sticks with you. Of hasn't played as much ball as I had hoped he would have played in college.
- [27:48]
Todd McShay
And, and with all these guys at every position, really, you're looking for separators that could. Right again, not falling. But why? My goodness, he's bigger. He's got a as strong an arm as Cam Ward maybe and stronger than Shador and a little stronger than Dart and he might be faster in a straight line than all these guys. And so why is he not being mentioned? And I think that that's a big thing for NFL teams is. It's not, it's not that he can't. It's not that he doesn't have the traits. We love his maturity, we love where he is. But I'm betting my job maybe or choosing him over a really good starting player in another position over like an edge rusher or defensive tackle or an offensive tackle, like a starter like Connerly or Simmons, I'm going to draft that guy over those guys. And I don't have this job forever. I'm like this, you never know, next year could be my last. So those are the things I think so often we. And this is the stuff that I like sharing with the audience. Right. It's really hard to evaluate players. Okay. And then it becomes even trickier. But after 20 something years, like the evaluating players, while it's never easy and you start fresh every year and there's 800 guys that you dwindle down to 400, but they're still doing 400 evaluations in the class and all that stuff. But you get to a point where you trust your eyes, you trust what you're seeing. You know what a zone corner looks like versus a man to man corner. You know what a three technique looks like versus a five technique or versus a nose. Like we got all that stuff. We've had that for many, many years. Okay. But then you got to add in like the sources. What are my sources telling me with the character stuff, the durability stuff. I got so much stuff that. And I hate getting it this time of the year. It's the Worst man. You fall in love with a player and you hear some background stuff and you're like, mike.
- [29:44]
Steve Mensch
Damn it.
- [29:45]
Todd McShay
You know what I mean?
- [29:46]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [29:47]
Todd McShay
But so, so then the sources come, come in, like, and you got to make sure because you don't want to have egg on your face sitting on the draft set the first night or the second night on ABC with Herb street. And like, you don't want to have a guy rated 35th and he's still sitting on the board when you're on the 97th pick and it's been on Todd's top available. So, like, that part's important too. Then there's this third element to this process and it's like the conversations that you have when they put some perspective on it. Like, yeah, I get it. I see that talent. And Shuck's a perfect example. I see that talent. I see the maturity. Awesome interview with him. See him hanging out with the wide receivers. He's different than the rest of the guys. He's ready. But the one year and then you start talking about like, I, like I could get. Luther Burden's a pain. He's got some stuff. But like, that could be a difference making guy that could help me right away. And so it's, the perspective is like the last part of this. And I got a lot of good perspective on a bunch of different players and we can get into some of them today. And we got, we got two more shows this week. But I do want to transition real quickly before I hand hand the baton over to you. And you've like rightfully deserve, this is your day. But I want to get to one last thing, one jam, one more quarterback thing in before I hand it over to my offensive lineman. There's a lot of conversation going on and people are trying to figure out where do I got to go to get where and can I sit comfortably at 33 if I'm Cleveland, who's going to be there at quarterback? And I talked about the frequent flyer miles and it's because teams are trying to figure out last minute, apples to apples. Interviewing, putting him on the board. We got to figure out, is he worth it because again, this perspective thing keeps coming up in the conversations I'm having. Okay. And. And it's like, it's, yeah, it sounds nice. I'll give it away a three and next year's two. Or I'll give away a three and a five this year and a four next year. But like, we're talking about give me a position third round. We're Talking about Harold Fannin, a tight end, third round, we're talking about Jalen Lane from Virginia Tech. Tory Horton, Jalen Royals, third round, we're talking about Anthony Belton, offensive tackle, third round, we're talking about Quincy Riley, cornerback, bunch of picks. Jacob Parish, cornerback, third round, we're talking about.
- [32:29]
Steve Mensch
There's good value there this year, man.
- [32:30]
Todd McShay
Josiah Stewart, princely Uman Melon. So like you got put a name with that number, right? That's the message I'm getting from people. Put a name with that number and then come back to me and tell me. Right. But I'm also getting the messaging of okay, Todd, I want you to understand if you're one of these teams and this, this is why this year of the quarterback situation is so unique and there's so much mystery and drama to it because again, Shador could go three, he could go 21 and he'll go. Or he'll go somewhere in between to a team trading up and then you've got Jackson Dart. If he doesn't go nine to the New Orleans Saints where we think he's best suited to go, you got Mickey Loomis. Always talk about like praying birds hanging now waiting for roadkill. When's that spot I can go down and plunge? Here's what everyone wants to know. Is Cleveland moving up from 33 if the Giants don't take Shador and they do the what most people think the smart football move is take a top tier player with the top tier pick. They take Abdul Carter. Three are the Giants moving up from 34. Wild cards, Vegas sitting at 37. New Orleans is scary. That's the messaging I keep getting that son of a bitch Mickey Loomis. No, serious, like that son of a gun.
- [34:05]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [34:06]
Todd McShay
If, if he wants one of these guys, he's gonna go up and get them. Okay. Jets 42, kind of a dark horse. Not saying they will, but. So even if it's shock, even if New Orleans trades up for Dart, let's say Shador fall goes at three falls of 21 or a team moves up to go get Shador ahead of Pittsburgh. And let's say New Orleans goes to four, goes from 40 all the way up ahead of Cleveland, ahead of the Giants, ahead of Vegas and goes and gets a quarterback right now we're down to Miller ow and shuck. You know what I mean? And so if the Giants are like.
- [34:55]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, like who's the first round team that wants Milroe? Have we figured that out yet? Have you figured it out?
- [35:01]
Todd McShay
No one. As far as I know everyone in the league is. Is scratching their head as hard. I'm glad you brought up Milro. Everyone's like, I don't know, man. Like, and people were like, well, you've been around the TV stuff. Like, what is this? Do you know anything? So I tell them the background that I've shared with all of our listeners and viewers. We appreciate you watching and listening YouTube. You can also get this if you're watching on YouTube, on Spotify, on video podcasts, on Apple Spotify and wherever else you get your podcasts. But I, I shared. Yeah, I. There isn't a team in the first round that's drafting him. And I've shared with all the people I've talked to in the league this weekend. Like, the inner workings of. Yeah, you go to the truck after, after the first night of the draft and, boy, there's a lot of frustration and the phone calls. Like, we have all these production meetings, right? And then you have a production meeting on Friday morning to get ready and make sure all the elements and the tapes are cut and all that stuff. But, like, the first conversation you're going to have is, well, Will Levis is still there. We talk to his mom or his dad or the agent or to Will. And. And then like the conversations you have leading up in the production meetings, like nine meetings. Beat your head against the wall sometimes. All these meetings. We meet, Zoom meet. We meet. We're going to meet at this hotel lobby. We're in the conference room, the Azalea conference room. Like meetings. But in those meetings, it's always a hot topic of conversation. The league wants to make sure. Okay, so I'm explaining to people in the league what, like the inner workings that. That's. The league does not want Jalen Milro sitting up there unless there's something. We're waiting on the official report. Unless there's some kind of like, yeah, he's there for the second night draft or he's there for some purpose, you know, that we're honoring him. You know, people are. People in the league are genuinely confused as to why he is accepted an invite to Green Bay. Just as confused as we are. But just like us, speculation they may. If it's not something that we haven't heard reported yet, and that if it's not something that winds up getting reported before the draft, but why, like a special circumstance is there, then the league knows they have. They feel really good, good about the fact someone's going to trade up for them so that. That's. It's funny because it's like TV stuff and it's. But like teams are like what do you got? What do you got? You know?
- [37:36]
Steve Mensch
Okay, the odds too. It's the same. It's the same kind of a thing. So we see these odds and they think a player is going to go there, but go ahead.
- [37:42]
Todd McShay
Sorry, no. So I want to retrain our brain. If Shador doesn't go three, we're now like then and if the Saints don't go quarterback at nine but again that may have changed and people in the league are really trying to figure out is that change Mickey and the organizational's priorities there at 9. But if they, if no quarterback outside of Cam Moore goes in the top 10, which I think if you pulled people in the league they would say is most likely. When does the first domino fall? Is it 15 to Atlanta where they have the second fewest picks of any team in the draft. Talked to a couple different people this weekend who were like watch out for Atlanta but also watch out for Minnesota. And 24 fewest picks of the draft. Four picks. So that's been the conversation. It's that like if, if Ward's the only one in the top 10, where does the first domino fall? Is it one of those teams? Cleveland, Giants, Vegas, New Orleans, Jets? Most people think the most likely chances would be Cleveland, Giants or New Orleans. Those are the three teams that people think are most likely to trade back into the first round with Vegas and the jets being kind of outside contenders. And would it be up ahead of Pittsburgh to get Shador if he's still there? How far would Mickey go up to get Jackson Dart if that indeed is their guy? Which team is lurking with the Tyler Shuck stuff and who wants the wild card? It's got to be a team that doesn't need them right now, at least for a year. And. And will Melro be a late first round pick by a team moving up to get him? So that's all the conversation at quarterbacks. I want to leave you with this and then this is your show Saturday. Quarterbacks. Everyone believes the only, the only two with an outside shot to be day two picks quarterback. Beyond those five, Ward, Shador Dart, Milro Shuck would be Will Howard from Ohio State and Riley Leonard from Notre Dame, interestingly enough.
- [39:47]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, I texted you about it today.
- [39:48]
Todd McShay
Yeah, you and I were texting about that. We can get into all that. We have the rest of the week and all next week to talk about Riley Leonard and all that. I just want to make sure we get this information out there. But again if you pulled everyone. The information I'm getting is they expect all of those guys. Here's the names that you're going to hear on on Saturday is what everyone's talk. The Saturday quarterbacks are. Howard Leonard, Eers Quin ers, Kyle McCord, Syracuse. Dylan Gabriel. A lot of interesting stuff on Dylan Gabriel. Really Like a man wish he was taller. Miami. Miami could use him. Miami. Any other team like Miami. Like. Like another team like Miami. But who are those teams? That's what everyone kept saying. Then I'm gonna throw one last name out at you. And I texted you about this too. I want to make sure that you got them on your draft tracker. Always. You protect me, I protect you. Watch. Watch. Late. Late. Day 3 Montana State quarterback Tommy Milotte. Apparently it's mispronounced a lot. It's spelled M E L O T T M E L L O T T I. Something like that. Just under 6 foot 206, 208, something like that. In that range. Really good athlete. They read a lot of. A lot of option zone read option. He was like think of like Nebraska almost. Not exactly that scheme but with the quarterbacks role in that old. The old Nebraska, you know, the Julian Edelman, Taysom Hill. That type. Obviously different, not like tight end, but like a versatile quarterback. Was it Joshua Cribbs? Yeah, there were a couple other guys. We haven't had one in a while. Yeah, thank you. We haven't had one in a while. Bowling Green State University, right?
- [41:44]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, I think so. He was definitely a Mac guy.
- [41:46]
Todd McShay
I'm pressing my luck. I may. Yeah, there was another bull. Okay. Anyway, Tommy Miller, if you hear that name called, it's going to be as a try to develop him into a Julian Edelman kind of offensive weapon type of role where he could be an emergency quarterback for you. I just thought that was fascinating and to be quite honest with you, I will now watch tape on him this weekend.
- [42:06]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, right.
- [42:07]
Todd McShay
I have not done that. Okay, I'm done. I feel like that's enough.
- [42:12]
Steve Mensch
Awesome.
- [42:13]
Todd McShay
There's a bunch of other stuff I want to get to the wide receivers. Pierce vs Aziraku. Tet Ameca Golden. All these debates.
- [42:24]
Steve Mensch
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- [42:54]
Todd McShay
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- [44:53]
Steve Mensch
All right, we're gonna go right off your tears. Your tears, not my tears, mind you. We'll talk about that as we go through it. I do agree with you though. Your first offensive lineman on your top offensive lineman on your board is offensive tackle Will Campbell. That is Tier three. I don't know if you want to explain the tiers again really quickly. I think that's correct. There are no, there are clearly no tier one prospects in this draft. You can maybe make an argument for tier two. I'm with you. I'M comfortable at tier three. I think that, you know, immediate contributors quickly develop into starters, quality starters. I think that's what we're looking at here. There are no Joe Walts, the Notre Dame offensive tackle, Joe Alt, who went early to the Chargers last year. That guy, we've said it before, we'll say it again. That guy is not in this draft. So we just don't see it. So let's have the Will Campbell discussion and we'll get the arm length out of the way.
- [45:44]
Todd McShay
Right.
- [45:44]
Steve Mensch
Right at the beginning. 32 and 5, 8 at the combine, 33 inches at his pro day. Guys, to play with that length, that's not my biggest concern. I don't. I. I think that both sides of the argument would say that's lazy to make the argument that just look at the arm length and this is why he's going to fail. I'll start with the positive. And, and I say this in my report about him. His length is a concern, but teams could bet on his ability to overcome it with technique, mobility, strength, smarts and toughness. I obviously have a very high opinion of this player. I think when you watch his pass set, if you're a fan of offensive line play, watch this man pass set. It is an absolute thing of beauty, the way he kicks out. He's actually, he's got a very high stance, but the way he kicks out and bends when he sets is. It's something else. It's incredible. He's very balanced as a run blocker for the most part. He's very tough to beat when he wins with his hands and pass protection, and he almost always wins with his hands. But we have to be upfront about some things. If you look at the beginning of the year, I think the South Carolina tape is the best example. I think Ole Miss is a good example. There are other reps throughout the year that he's not clean. He gets beat to the inside a lot. He's top heavy as a run blocker sometimes because that a length affects him and affects his ability to get there. The length is an issue on tape. We cannot pretend that it's not because we just love the player and we love the human being and we think he's going to be great. I think he's got a very good chance to be an excellent starting tackle in the NFL. But there's a reason why I said earlier this year and I still believe he scares the hell out of me because if you're taking him at 4, I'd really like it to Be a little bit of a cleaner evaluation and I'm not there.
- [47:30]
Todd McShay
Yeah, I don't disagree. I know, I know. Like I look back, right? It doesn't matter. Like there's only a handful of Joe alts in the past decade where we all knew and and had it not been for a bunch of awesome quarterbacks and wide receivers, Joe like Joe, you could have made it. Like we've had years where offensive tackle was the first overall pick. If that was that kind of kind of year and there was no quarterbacks, Joe Walt's the number one overall pick. Okay. But for every Joe Alt there's a Paris Johnson who got bumped up. There's a in 2023 there's a Darnell Wright who got bumped up right tackle only. There's an Icky Equanu who was a 6 overall pick in 2022 got bumped up.
- [48:31]
Steve Mensch
Pretty good players by the way.
- [48:33]
Todd McShay
Evan. Yeah, yeah. But it's taken a minute. Not certain. Not like Joe Alt coming in and playing at a Pro bowl level. For every Joe Alton Penne Sewell who is the seventh overall pick and we all knew he was going to be awesome, there's an Alex Leatherwood who we thought late first, maybe some fringe first second round grades went 17 overall forever. Like Andrew Thomas took a little while did the Giants but he's a fourth overall pick. Jedrick Will Wills got bumped up a little bit. 10th overall pick Makai Becton got bumped up 11th overall pick Tristan Worf's in 2020 turned out to be the best of those up. So like what's safe is I think it becomes a major part of it and you talk to people and it's like it's meeting with like a three time Pro Bowler already in the NFL. His football intelligence is just through the roof. What's not safe is some of the tape but they think it can be coached up, protected against. I don't see a dominant player. I do see a player who against top tier past rusher has gotten beat and, and that like who was it the was it.
- [49:56]
Steve Mensch
I forget in fairness to him it was a murderer's row of guys, murderers row. It was, it was weak.
- [50:02]
Todd McShay
There was one edge rusher to beat him to the inside and then beat him the inside again in the game. I'm blanking.
- [50:07]
Steve Mensch
That was. That's a South Carolina game.
- [50:09]
Todd McShay
Yes.
- [50:09]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [50:10]
Todd McShay
Kyle Kennard. Thank you. So he's going to get bumped up and we think it's going to be at 4. If it's not at 4, maybe it's 7 to the jets. And if it's not at 7, the absolute parachute for him is 10 to the Chicago Bears.
- [50:32]
Steve Mensch
You know, Patriots fans should not panic. If he's there at 4, he's not. This is not. You know, I'm not saying that this is. Wow, what a reach. This is terrible. I just. I think some of my issue is the narrative that's developed around this player. And I feel like. I feel like evaluators have dug in, whoever they may be, in the media, in the. In the league, have dug in on either side of this player. There's no middle ground with him. And I think for. For us, we've always tried to do that. We've tried to have the honest conversation of who this player is. And it's not that he can't play tackle in the NFL, and it's not that he's the best tackle that's ever come out. It's that he's somewhere in the middle. And let's be honest about who this player is when we're evaluating.
- [51:11]
Todd McShay
I think this is an important time for me to share because you're my nuts and bolts guy today, and you're gonna. You're gonna lead this conversation in talking to people in the league, though, and I wanted to share. Save this for now. I think. I think in a. You have to ask the question, right? Like, if his tape's not that much better and it's not that much better than Membus, and it's not that much better, then, in fact, Josh Simmons is the best athlete or the best, most talented offensive tackle in this class.
- [51:45]
Steve Mensch
Can't wait to talk about him.
- [51:47]
Todd McShay
And if. And if it's not that much better than Simmons, it's not that much better than Connerly from Oregon. Why is he. Why is it like, oh, yeah, he goes four. He's best tackle. I think it's important to say this. And it's. And I'm gonna. I'm gonna lay a blanket over it. And it's nunjo business. Whose business is it? Oh, it's Nun Joe's. It's nunjo business. Because it's not like there's certain details that don't need to be shared and all that. And. And there are varying from, like, eyes a little immature to, like, there are some incidents. But I want. If you're going to be a part of the show and you're going to tune in, you have an expectation. I've set a bar, and I promise you I will live up to that bar as much as I can. Push it. And without, without losing sources because it's more important to keep the source than to, to get some stupid little bit of information. And not all of them turn out to be exactly true. So I'm not going to pedal in that stuff. But what I am going to tell you is there's a reason why some guys that aren't that much below the tape and the talent level of Campbell are going to go that much below the number four pick. There are varying levels, very much varying. But there are concerns, more so than I can ever remember in an offensive tackle class. Mensch. There's some character stuff with these guys. It's some immaturity, it's some incidents. It's something there. Membu, Simmons, even Connerly a little bit. And Ursary, Ariante. Ursary. We'll get to him in a little bit. So I want people to understand when we're having these conversations, that's going to factor into where they're coming off the board. Take it away.
- [53:35]
Steve Mensch
Agree. It's. Listen, the NFL draft is one of the most competitive interviews in the world. Anytime you're offering a 22 year old a million dollar job, I mean, you're going to do your background. It sucks that it's so public. I hate that these younger kids and some of this, it's, you know, and you're not airing them out, you're just pointing out what you know. You're pointing out why this is happening. But it is the reality of it. There are, there are subtle things that will make you, can make you a. The fourth overall pick or it can make you the 10th overall pick or can make you fall farther than that. So it's, it's an important part of the discussion. I understand. I do like to talk about the, the production and the player and the upside. More than that because it's just, you know, it's tough.
- [54:12]
Todd McShay
Oh, that's, that's the baseline and that's what. The foundation of all of it. Yeah.
- [54:16]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. So I think, you know, I think we've handled Campbell. I will say this. There's one other thing. His stance. He bends really well, by the way. It's interesting.
- [54:25]
Todd McShay
He does.
- [54:26]
Steve Mensch
He bends really well. His stance is weird or unorthodox.
- [54:32]
Todd McShay
You know, maybe weird show today, man. This is why it's your show.
- [54:35]
Steve Mensch
So upright. When you watch, you look at the offensive line, you see where his head is compared to everyone else. And if you're comfortable doing it, I don't have any problem with him lining up like that in the NFL. I don't think it's going to be an issue. It wasn't an issue in college. I don't know why it would be an issue if your. Your stance is like that. A tackle. I do think it's. It could be an issue when you play offensive guard and he's a taller guy. He's not and I know it's short arms. He's a taller guy. The idea that. And I've said this too. The idea that you can just kick him inside the guard. We get a little comfortable with that. I think as evaluators of this guy can just go to guard. Well not. No, that's not really a thing. And this guy could play center or this guy's only played left guard. He can play right guard. That's not really a thing. And then we'll get into this with Memboo. Right now it's. It's not that simple. The guys can just play the other line. They can have all the tools. Like let's get into Missouri offense. Tackle Arman Bamboo right now. Is he a right tackle only that's where he's played his whole career. We talked about this as an unbalanced offensive line. He'll kick over to the left. He certainly has the athletic ability to play left. I mean this is not a. He doesn't move well enough to play left tackle. When you think about the traditional left tackle versus right tackle, the right tackle is more of a power, sturdier guy whereas the left tackle is the athlete. It. That's not the case with Arman member. He moves incredibly well. We've gone over the testing numbers. I'm going to go over specifically what they are now. But a 330 pound man should not move like he does. It's just. It's. It's odd. It is unique. It is rare. It's awesome. It is awesome to watch.
- [56:04]
Todd McShay
It is worth mentioning he ran a four nine one sub five second 40 at 332 pounds and can't help yourself. This is more about the big picture. It was one of the biggest surprises to me and a general manager pointed out to me early in my career. You would think a 10 yard split or in the short shuttle for interior offensive lineman is actually a big correlation to NFL success. It's wild how strong of an indicator of success it is. The heavier you are and the lower you run your 40 yard dash. It's pretty wild. Guys who are like 315 and way more that run sub 5 second 40s. The list is Pretty long of those guys going on to have really good NFL careers. Go ahead.
- [56:56]
Steve Mensch
Makes zero sense, but it's awesome with Membu. I actually think he's a better run blocker than Campbell right now. I, I think that because of what he does, he's a zone blocker. That is, that is his DNA. That's what he did in Missouri. That's what he's going to do in the NFL. When you watch this man steal the edge and pass off edge defenders to his offensive guard and then work linebackers, it again, I. If you're an offensive line coach and you're sitting down, we're talking about pass sets. Today we're throwing on Will Campbell tape and you're almost. There's almost a tear in your eye of. Look at this young man and how good he is at this. Look at this talent and this technique and everyone talks about size and strength and movement and all that with offensive linemen. It is a very technical position. It is a. Your technique. I would argue maybe other than quarterback technique is the most. It's the most technical position in all of football.
- [57:46]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [57:46]
Steve Mensch
When you watch him pass set, it's amazing. When you watch Armin Menbu zone block, it is holy shit. Like this is. This is incredible what he's doing. So for me, I think he's a step ahead of Campbell in that area. He's not the pass blocker yet. I think he can be. I think he's got every, every tool in the, in the toolbox to be that guy, to be as good as Campbell and, and I think he'll get there. The biggest question with him, we kind of hit on this in the beginning. Is he a right tackle only? Is he only going to play right tackle? That's fine. He'll be a great right tackle. But if you're drafting and you've already got a right tackle, let's say New England Patriots who just signed Morgan Moses this off season. Are you. Is that now take him off the table. That's going to be a separating factor. And I think if New England hadn't signed Moses or it signed a left tackle, we might be having a different conversation about who's going four. But in terms of getting back to your tears, I like that both of these guys are in the same tier. I think that's fair. I think they're very competitive and that's, you know, kind of how I would have it too. I have member ahead of Campbell, but they're both right there.
- [58:52]
Todd McShay
The 21 year old thing is, is Interesting. When you talk to people in the league, it's absolutely an exciting thing for offensive line coaches in the future. It is absolutely. From team to team, depending on what, where they are in their, in their organization, what the Expectations are for 2025. Right. What they're. How much like how important it's. Pass protection is always important, but like do we have a quarterback who's mobile that can. We can over offset? Is he super smart with, you know, pre snaps and protections and all that stuff? Because I, I, judging by the conversations and I totally understand it, the 21 works for him for the long term development. The 21 for the. I don't say immaturity, but some like the lack of football development and the maturity and how can we. Can we weather the storm a little bit? Because there's probably going to be a little bit of storm and pass protection as a rookie with this guy. Just find that to be interesting. Love the fact football, wrestling and tennis were his high school sports. I don't know why.
- [60:03]
Steve Mensch
Can you imagine, can you imagine out in the court, you got your white, little white sneakers on.
- [60:08]
Todd McShay
Yeah, Mom, I've got the. I'm in the three seed today, you know.
- [60:13]
Steve Mensch
My goodness.
- [60:14]
Todd McShay
Who you. Yeah, like some, some little, some like country club boy.
- [60:19]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. I don't know how old he was, but I wouldn't want to return that.
- [60:23]
Todd McShay
Six, four and a quarter, £332 is opposite you serving. I just love that. Yeah. I see all the things. I think Darnell writes a good NFL comp, I think, but I think maybe, maybe more mobile.
- [60:39]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. Not as mean as Wright was. Right.
- [60:42]
Todd McShay
Was me. Yeah. But he's a. He's got some finishing mean to him. He's got. He does, but not that level.
- [60:48]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. Right.
- [60:49]
Todd McShay
Yeah. Darnold Wright was a different level. Yeah. Let me leave it this interestingly enough, because on tape, I actually think Membu has more physical gifts than Campbell. I haven't talked. It's. It's Campbell. Okay. Just the conversations I'm having. It's Campbell and then it's Memboo Banks down the road. Isn't that interesting? It is interesting because I feel like the perception has been, well, it's Campbell versus Membu and I think coming out of the combine, we like look at the traits and the 32 inch arms. 32 and 5, 8. For Campbell, it's Campbell and then it's Memboo and Banks and some other guys.
- [61:35]
Steve Mensch
So do you think the left tackle, right tackle and the experience that Campbell has being, I mean, a Day.
- [61:42]
Todd McShay
I think if you're drafting in the top 10 Mensch, safe is not the right word. It's known commodity. And I can't F this thing up.
- [61:54]
Steve Mensch
Right. That's how I describe safe. But maybe I'm. I'm not.
- [61:57]
Todd McShay
Yeah, I can't F this thing up. I need something that's a sure thing. The worst case is still a pretty good case. I think with Memboo, the talent is there. Everyone recognizes it. Get out of the top nine, 10 picks and then. And then you start comparing to what else is left on the board. I'd rather. Yeah, I'm going to take a risk on this. He's only 21. We can develop him. He's got tool. Maybe one day he is better than Campbell, but. But there could be some bumps in the road early and all that sort of stuff. I. Yeah, I think that's. I. I don't think. I know. That's the separator for several teams.
- [62:34]
Steve Mensch
Right. All right, man. Time to talk about Texas offensive tackle.
- [62:39]
Todd McShay
Kelvin Banks, who fascinating you the last time we spoke.
- [62:44]
Steve Mensch
I'm looking at your tears right now. Obviously it didn't happen, but you were talking about maybe putting another offensive tackle ahead of him. I wanted to have the conversation of who that offensive tackle was. But before we do that.
- [62:55]
Todd McShay
Okay.
- [62:57]
Steve Mensch
I'm guessing the first Georgia tape is a big reason why you felt maybe not as confident. Banks and let's just get this out of the way, didn't play well in the game. And I mean, that was a big game. You got Jalen Walker and you got Mikel Williams. That's a showcase game, man. You. You. If you want to be. You want to be a guy like he was coming into the year where Kelvin Banks was looked at as possibly on the same level as Campbell, as possibly offensive tackle one. You want to be that guy, you better show up on those nights. You better have a big night. And I will say in his defense, Quinn, yours, the Texas quarterback. As a former offensive lineman, I'll tell you this. He drove me nuts that night. I mean, nuts. I mean, stop drifting so far back. Stop moving into pressure. And you could see Banks. There's a couple times where the palms went up of what are we doing here? Because you're. You're not making my day any easier. It's hard enough with Jalen flying off the edge. You think I want to deal with this all night? It's a real pain in the ass. Maybe step up a little bit. You can't do that. You can't have it both ways, right? You can't say that yours has a little bit of a pocket presence issue and a little bit of got to get to your spots and move around.
- [64:05]
Todd McShay
I'm not saying anything, Mitch.
- [64:07]
Steve Mensch
I'm just saying overall. Overall, Just defending my guy. You can't have that argument about going yours and then turn around and say, you know, and not. And not factor that in. That said, there are nights in that there were reps in that game where he just flat out gets beat. I thought Mikel Williams had it. I mean, that was the night that I was. I fell in love with Mikel Williams. And Jalen had a pretty good day, too. Great.
- [64:29]
Todd McShay
It was bad. It was bad. It's not as bad as the folklore has become.
- [64:34]
Steve Mensch
No, it was not a bloodbath.
- [64:36]
Todd McShay
I don't like that he didn't play the second time around against Georgia. The medical is on there.
- [64:44]
Steve Mensch
Okay, so now we're getting into the medical stuff. Okay. I'll say this about offensive lineman, right? They say this about. And maybe this isn't the best thing, so you can cut it out later if you want, but offensive lineman, it's like the FBI and terrorists, man. The terrorists don't have to be right once. That's the edge rushers. They only have to be right once, man. They're right two or three.
- [65:04]
Todd McShay
No, that.
- [65:05]
Steve Mensch
That's a.
- [65:05]
Todd McShay
That's a great point.
- [65:07]
Steve Mensch
They have had a night. If you're wrong once or twice, maybe three times. An offensive.
- [65:11]
Todd McShay
That is a great hang in your.
- [65:13]
Steve Mensch
Head walking out of that locker room, man, I let my team down, especially situationally, especially if it's at certain points in the game. You want to get B for sack on second down in the first quarter. That's one thing. If the game's rolling along, your team's behind, you got to start throwing the ball downfield and you start getting beat, then, man, it doesn't look good. So I'll say this. The edge rusher only has to be right two or three times. That offensive lineman has to be right all the time. He battled in that game. It was not a bloodbath. He did battle in that game. But again, showcase game, better show up, better have a day. And I didn't think he elevated to meet the moment. That said, we're still talking about a guy who started 42 games in college. We're talking about a guy who's got a good frame, a guy who moves well and again was coming into the season as possibly offensive tackle one. I'm still really high on him. I think he's a, if he's a top 15 pick, I, I think that's fine. So for me, I'm not ready to jump ship based on a couple of things that happened this year. I acknowledge that he's not quite as good as I thought he was coming into the year. He's still pretty damn good.
- [66:13]
Todd McShay
He is pretty damn good. He is pretty damn good. He's. He can mirror, he's got strength, he's got the size you look for. His arms are a little shorter than ideal, but I don't know what he was at the pro day. 33 and a half at combine, he's probably closer to 34.
- [66:31]
Steve Mensch
It's probably like 36 in his pro day.
- [66:34]
Todd McShay
Yeah, exactly. Here's the two things with him. I wrote it down over and over again in my notes. Balance and placement, hand placement and balance. I, I just. He leans too much into contact. In pass pro, I saw he leaning too much into contact and that caused him getting off balance. It was falling off of blocks. It was just like this balance, hand placement, leverage kind of thing with him. Can he do it? Yeah, he can. I, I guess. Here's the other part that I just like in my notes. 42 starts is a great thing. We want reps. We want. But why at 42 starts are we still having these kind of problems with the balance and hand placement stuff? When you're coach damn well, you're, you're playing against top tier competition, it's a big time program, you know, so that, that it frustrated me. I hear you frustrated me.
- [67:35]
Steve Mensch
I think the balance, when you look at his side to side movement, his lateral agility is great. But I do see the forward lean too.
- [67:41]
Todd McShay
It's the contact balance almost like in the run block, run, blocking, lunging, top heavy, like top heavy, hand placement, balance, contact.
- [67:51]
Steve Mensch
It doesn't show, it doesn't show up all the time. It does, it does show up at times. I don't think it shows up all the time. I will say when you look at that, that's why you should not be surprised when people say he might have to start at offensive guard. Because I think when you put him in a tighter space, when I see that with players, that forward lean issue, and I see it with a lot of players, is to me the first thing I want to know is arm length. I want to know is this guy, is this an arm length issue? Is he afraid he's not going to get there? And that's why he's leading with his upper body. So for Me, that's the first thing I think. And maybe, you know, I don't know what his arm length was at his pro day either. 33 and a half is fine to play tackle, but maybe that is why he starts at offensive guard until he works out some of those issues. Because I don't think when you're in those close quarters, I don't think it's as big of a deal or it doesn't, it's still a big deal. It doesn't show up as much is what I'm saying.
- [68:45]
Todd McShay
I did find it interesting. I'm just trying to look this up. I did find it interesting outside the quarterbacks, it feels like he's one of the top frequent flyer mile guys recently though.
- [68:58]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [68:59]
Todd McShay
And again, in my conversations, in my conversations it was more about member versus Banks and talking about the teams that need a tackle and you know, the jets, we talk about seven. Chicago's a left tackle need, not a right tackle need. And I don't know that they're going tackle there could be a tight end, it could be a running back, it could be, you know, it could be an edge. But, but you got San Francisco sitting there at 11, right? Atlanta, interestingly enough, 45 players they interviewed at the combine, all defensive players, players, offensive coaches were told to stay home from Indianapolis.
- [69:39]
Steve Mensch
All 45 are defense. Yes, that's a great little nugget.
- [69:43]
Todd McShay
But their, but their most recent private workout was with Kelvin Banks and people, and people have been speculating, well, yeah, maybe they could trade back. Maybe they think you get it late first. But talking to people in the league, I don't think he's going to wind up. I think he's going higher. I'm just talking about what the speculation was when I was reading about him on the pro days and things on the Internet and social media because that's where I got that information from initially. Talk to people over the weekend in the league and they're having conversations about Chicago 10, San Francisco at 11, Atlanta 15 for banks. Just wanted to share that.
- [70:24]
Steve Mensch
Listen, you set your 3 year tallies for us. I don't know if we have a graphic for this. Like maybe this is a good time to get into this because this is something else that's kind of interesting to me. The offensive tackle, the three year tally, there it is right there for round one is 5.3. Is this class that Batman? I don't think it is.
- [70:40]
Todd McShay
I really, I don't, I don't think it's bad. I told you. I think, I think there are more question marks and, and more, you know, minor. Minor to decent red flags that are causing some. Some of these guys to drop. But I think, I think Campbell's going very high in the first. I think Membu and Banks are probably the next offensive tackles off the board. Somewhere in that, like, you know, 10 to 20 range, I think you're going to see Simmons and Connerly could possibly get there in the first. And then you're going to see two guards go in the first. Yeah, that's definitely. But because we can get to them later.
- [71:16]
Steve Mensch
If. If guys are talking and you're hearing people talk about Banks going late, that to me is a suggestion that maybe only three go. And I would be very surprised by that. I just think that's. And I've seen a lot of mocks where it seems to be around the number. And to me that's surprising because. And we'll get into these players. I think there are other players that are. That I would certainly take at the end of the first round, if not earlier, to be honest with you. And again, there's other things at play and I understand, but in terms of.
- [71:43]
Todd McShay
I just listened to you the last several years. Like, dudes are gonna go. Yeah, they're gonna go. I, I, like, I didn't. I didn't mention, you know, Fuaga, Mims, Jordan, Morgan, Tyler, Guyton all went in the first.
- [72:00]
Steve Mensch
I mean, look at that second round, number two. That is fascinating.
- [72:05]
Todd McShay
Just 1.3.
- [72:06]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. Because not in the last two years. Because they all go early. Right.
- [72:11]
Todd McShay
Because you. Because. Or. And here I should have mentioned this. Here's the conversation I'm having with people. I don't know where they're going to. Going to go. And all the mock drafts don't have them all going. And you get Connerly and maybe Simmons and Ursary and all that. However, I can't count on sitting there early in the second and getting guys. So I'm probably going to have to take him this time around. And, And I want. These are conversations that were being had. There's a ton of defensive linemen to be had early, mid, late, second round, third round and beyond. There's a ton of running backs to be had.
- [72:50]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, agree. That's going. Yeah, it's going to be.
- [72:53]
Todd McShay
If I need an offensive tackle, I got to get him in round one, so I can't mess around. And you start to do those combo picks of. If I. Okay, if I take. If I take Mikel Williams, who am I getting? Let's just throw out The Bears, right, they pick a 39 again. If I. If I want an edge and an offensive tackle. If I don't take banks at 10 and I take Mikel, then I like, I don't. There's not. There's not a tackle. So I either got to trade away another pick to go move up to get one late in the first, or I just, like, I'll go get one in the third. That's maybe a developmental guy and see what happens. But, like. And there's only one. There's Pillow from Boston College. By all my conversations, there's only one offensive tackle. They're like, yeah, he's a second. He's a second.
- [73:48]
Steve Mensch
I like him. We'll get into him maybe a minute.
- [73:51]
Todd McShay
But my point, if it's not him, then it's Charles Grant, right? A lot of upside develop them, but, like, I don't know. From William and Mary, there's Anthony Belton. Like, I just don't know. Maybe he's a guard. I don't. I don't know. You know, so guy, we'll.
- [74:04]
Steve Mensch
We'll mention really quickly because I don't know if we're getting into him, but you had him higher than I am. I have him, but Miles Hinton from Michigan is a guy.
- [74:11]
Todd McShay
He's just intriguing.
- [74:12]
Steve Mensch
He's just really interesting to me. When you start to dig into his tape because there's issues, there's a reason why he's not that top tier. My guy's got to stop ducking his head at the top of sets. He's got to, you know, kind of play with his. His head up a little bit more. But then there's. You watch that Texas tape and you see some of those pass sets, and you're thinking to yourself, what's wrong with this guy? So those are the kind of players that you're talking about. They're. You're talking about guys who have flaws could have upside. If you want a guy that's going to be a starter right away, I mean, I think you got to go.
- [74:39]
Todd McShay
You got to secure him. You got to secure him in the first round. And yeah, maybe. Maybe you catch a break and Connerly falls to you with one, like the first five, six picks of the second round or Simmons falls because of the injury and some of the immaturity and stuff like that, maybe. But, like, don't bet on it, man. That's a bad bet to make. It's a bad bet to make.
- [75:02]
Steve Mensch
Agree.
- [75:06]
Todd McShay
Good. Where do you want to go next?
- [75:08]
Steve Mensch
First interior offensive lineman. This is going to be interior.
- [75:11]
Todd McShay
Whoa, hold on. It's your show. We're going to. Oh, you're good. Okay. Sorry. Straight tears. Go ahead. Yes.
- [75:18]
Steve Mensch
We're going the first. I'm not. We'll get back to some of your guys.
- [75:21]
Todd McShay
All right. Roll out the tears again, Tuck. You've done a nice job on this show, by the way. I've been very impressed. You're calling. You're calling. Graphics. You're total control at the line of scrimmage right now. Mentions, but I wanted to see. So. So tears. We're now into. After Campbell, Memboo and Banks. We're now into the two interior offensive linemen. Both guys, I'm getting information are very likely to go in the first. That's great. Zabel from North Dakota State. Excuse me. Who? I have an identical grade on Tyler Booker from Alabama. I can tell you from my conversations in the league, it is. If you're. If you're on FanDuel and you're looking to make that. That wager on first interior offensive lineman off the board. Run, run and hit. Grab your @fd sportsbook app right now and. And take Booker. I don't know what the odds are, but. But it's. It's not safe money, but it's. It's the smart play because everyone I'm talking to in the lead thinks it's going to be Booker, and he could go a little higher. I think the four for Booker is. Is Baltimore. We can get to all that stuff.
- [76:23]
Steve Mensch
What a great fit that would be. What a great fit that would be.
- [76:26]
Todd McShay
Yes, I will.
- [76:28]
Steve Mensch
Just for conversation's sake, we'll get into Booker in a second. Gray's able. North Dakota State. I. I hate that this is going to be the potential of me turning heel, but here we go. I hear a lot of positional versatility. Talk about Gray's able center. We understand that he can't play tackle. Right. And it's not just a length thing, by the way. It is a length thing. We're now talking about 32 inch at the combine, 32 and a quarter at the Senior Bowl. It is a length issue for him. Go back. And I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to people who are, you know, questioning what I'm saying. Or I'll just say, when you watch his tape, go back and watch his tape. Or when you watch his tape. There are some issues last year of him being at offensive tackle in handling speed in edge rushers. He was not as clean as I expected after a dominant Senior bowl performance. I had some concerns after the tape. Now, the reason why you think you, you he's going to go as high as he is is that I think that he's got a chance to be a Pro bowl guard based on his balance, the way he moves his feet, he's got some power to his game. I think when you project him, I think you're just playing out of position last year and you start putting him in the inside. You see what happened at the Senior bowl where he was ultra competitive, played extremely well. I do also believe that he's got a chance to be an all pro center. My concern with that is I'm not sure he can play center yet. I know he's done some things where he snapped and I know that he's open to the idea and I know his skill set makes him an outstanding center prospect. But snapping at the Senior bowl and at the combine and showing it for workouts is a different thing than moving to center full time and everything that that position entails. So to me, when I started seeing him at 18, I started seeing him going super earlier. I was like, wow, this, it feels like an overcorrection. He's better than we thought he was coming in. He's going to be a great on. In. On the interior offensive line. I don't hate late first. I think the grade's perfect. I think you have. It was an 89 you had on him. That's a, that's a early second, late first. It's the perfect grade for him. I just think that this is a player that people saw the, at the Senior bowl in, rightfully so loved what he did there. But there are still enough things there to be concerned about. Well, that's why he might go after Booker or that's why he might not go as early as some people thought he might go at some point.
- [78:57]
Todd McShay
He moves differently than all the other interior offensive linemen in this class. Now, granted, it's, it's, it's a tackle, it's out in space a lot. It's in that system. Zone. He's a zone. That's the difference, too. Like, your market is limited to the scheme of the team's drafting and so. Exactly. And I think, I think in a perfect world, Booker is in a gap heavy scheme. Power man Zable is a zone blocking scheme. But I, I like, I want people to understand, like when you watch his tape, it looks different than the other guys. He is light on his feet. He moves extremely well. He does have short arms. I get It, I, I don't. He's not a road grader. He's not going to come in, he's not going to drive guys off, but he's going to get to the point. He's good with his, good with his angles. Excellent leverage, leverage for, for a tall guy, Very good balance. Okay. Also what people to realize we're talking about basically a 6, 6 offensive tackle that's going to kick into guard. 312 pounds, short arms, small hands. But my goodness, like I was just so impressed with him when like watching him with like the angles in the run game and, and watching the like how well he moved and how balanced he was at that tall frame. I, I saw some Cody Mock, I saw some Dominic Puni. I just, I think it guard mate. Yeah, I'm with you. He's going to be a damn good guard in the league and he may be a damn good center, but I'm at least my fallback is he's going to be a really good starting guard for me in my zone blocking scheme and that's all there is to it. There's nothing more. I don't need him at tackle in a pinch. Yes, he's played there and he could probably kick outside if for 10 plays or like to finish out a game. But I'm not starting a game with him at left tackle or right tackle. It's going to be a guard or center and that, that does provide position flexibility because it doesn't. I mean maybe in a certain week I don't have to carry an offensive tackle and I can carry an extra wide receiver return special, you know what I mean? So, so those things factor in. But at the end of the day that's what he is. He's a, he's a zone blocking interior offensive lineman and he moves differently than Booker and Jackson and all the rest of those interior guys.
- [81:24]
Steve Mensch
By the way. He knew it. I mean that's why he showed up in Mobile and was like, yeah, I'll play guard, I'll snap. I'm gonna show.
- [81:30]
Todd McShay
He was voted by NFL scouts, not by teammates, not by defensive linemen, by NFL scouts who were studying this as close as anyone studying it. During the week. He was the practice player of the week at all positions. Quarterbacks, running backs, wider. Okay. He did play some centers you talked about there. Like, I don't like all those guys that go to the Senior bowl and dominate that level of competition have gone on to be really good NFL players. The small school guys, Tehran Armstead, Ali Marpet, Cody Mock also NDSU patents his game after models it. Dylan, is he really a different player?
- [82:08]
Steve Mensch
But yeah, that's interesting.
- [82:09]
Todd McShay
No, I know, but he. That's who he. That's who he looks up. Quinn, Quinn, Miners. Like all those guys have gone to the Senior bowl, dominated that week. Small school guys drafted a little higher than we thought coming into the week and all have gone on to have really good NFL careers, man.
- [82:25]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, I agree. I see it happening too. I just thought. I thought that 18 was a little high. I thought that people were getting a little too carried away. But late first, that makes sense to me. It does. And let's not forget, because some years are different. That Senior bowl roster was loaded with defensive tackles. I mean, it was. I talk about a murderous row like we talked about earlier. I mean, that was. And. And if people forget, I want to bring this back up. Clearly he had a plan going there that he was going to show teams that he could play on the inside, and he executed that plan flawlessly. But he also showed that, I mean, he. He couldn't get enough reps. I mean, it was like he was fighting to get into one on ones. Just give me more reps. More reps, more reps. You, oh, you need a guard, you need a center. I'm here. I'm here. I mean, talk about showing your competitiveness, your willingness to get in there. Like, some guys, you know, they get a good rep and all of a sudden they're in the back trying to hide. They're getting some water, talking to the trainer. They felt like they might have tweaked something. You know, I got my good tape for the day. This kid was all about getting better over the week, about showing what he could do. And. And we're talking again about these little things that separate guys. I mean, I think that puts him in a different category in some ways.
- [83:33]
Todd McShay
I didn't love Tyler Booker's tape as much as the consensus seems to be in the new it. I get it, man. He's got 34 and a half inch arms, 11 inch hands, massive long six, four and a half, 321 pounds, ton of wars, 25 games at left guard the last two seasons. Like, my daughter could marry this man. He could be the leader of my corporation. I trust him implicitly. All the conversations coming out of Tuscaloosa. He's like the offensive line version of Will Anderson. Yeah, I've got like, best interview of the entire combine is one quote, one of the best interviews, another one, one of the best interviews. I've literally Ever in my entire long career had was with Booker Sabin co the coaches talk about car his character in the top 1% of 1% guys he and will Anderson like so like I get like safest all that stuff. Smart as a whip, consistent worker. I just didn't love his tape.
- [84:50]
Steve Mensch
So let me ask you this because. Go ahead because this is what's I'm going to get into. Go ahead.
- [84:56]
Todd McShay
And it's like the workout stuff was actually worse than. Than what I saw on tape. It really was. But it's 27 vertical, 27 inch vertical jump, 710 broad jump, 21 bench press reps were all the worst of all the offensive linemen. There were like 60 something guys from the offensive the worst of all of them. And that's lower body explosiveness and upper body power. That's not even talking about the slower feet. But I get it like in a gap scheme, power straight ahead. No one's getting by this Baltimore. Yep, Baltimore.
- [85:31]
Steve Mensch
It screams Baltimore. The guy that doesn't fit other schemes.
- [85:34]
Todd McShay
It's perfect for us and Houston. And Houston. Yeah, Houston. We got a problem. It's an offensive guard from out. But. But who was. But remember Will. Will Anderson, right?
- [85:47]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. Character guys.
- [85:49]
Todd McShay
And what's been all the talk all off season. I mentioned this the other day. Get they get anyone who is associated it felt like with that offensive line room for Houston. D'Amigo Ryan's the character of that group. The character of that group. They saw they got rid of everyone including Laramie, Laramie, Tunsil they wanted to bring in. And, and that's what I just think and I'm trying. Houston is picking at 25, so I don't know that he's getting to 20. What's Baltimore? 28. 20. 27. Sorry, 27.
- [86:28]
Steve Mensch
Yep.
- [86:28]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [86:30]
Steve Mensch
So tell me this because you. You dove into this a little bit about when you're evaluating players and the process of that and I, I thought all that was interesting about when you get opinions at the end and kind of how that gives you some perspective now that you have all these guys sorted and all of that. One thing you didn't mention that was really popping on my mind and this is a player that immediately I thought of is how the game evolves. So the game now the running game evolved. I think you. You have a higher premium for players that can move like an Armand memo, guys that move well and can zone block. I think that's. That's valued more now. So if you were evaluating Tyler Booker in 2002, 2003 you might look at him and have a different opinion because of how he wins. And how he wins is power, intelligence, length, effort. That's who he is. He masks all of those weaknesses because he's. The testing reflects what you see on tape. And I agree with you. It's a little bit worse, but it reflects what you see on tape. He doesn't have great feet. It doesn't move all that well. He's not going to fit real well in a scheme like Miami that wants to run outside zone and get their guys on the move. Just not what he does. So you also have to look at how the game has evolved. We talk about this with smaller receivers. It's now a thing that smaller receivers can come in the league and be productive. And I do think that Tyler Booker is a great example of a guy, you know, even longer than this. I mean, if he went back 30 years, it would be even more so. Who would be of a higher value prospect in that version of the NFL than he is today?
- [88:02]
Todd McShay
Yeah, yeah, but. But now the run game's starting to come back and cover two defense a little bit. Yeah, but. Yeah, no, I hear you. I. I'm with you. I agree. I don't disagree. All right.
- [88:15]
Steve Mensch
This is the guy.
- [88:17]
Todd McShay
This is.
- [88:17]
Steve Mensch
We're getting back to an offensive tackle. Bouncing around tears, baby.
- [88:20]
Todd McShay
Yep.
- [88:21]
Steve Mensch
This is the guy that I thought you had moved ahead of. Kelvin Banks, Minnesota offensive tackle Arianti Ursary.
- [88:28]
Todd McShay
Yeah.
- [88:29]
Steve Mensch
Am I right?
- [88:30]
Todd McShay
You're exactly right. Here's my thing on Ursary and there's like. Like I said, put a blanket over all the. Getting the names I mentioned. There's some stuff that you got to work through. Okay. On tape. Here's the hard. Here's the hard part. The best two players on tape, traits wise, you could argue I would throw member in there, too. The best three players on tape. If I'm just doing the traits and what they can potentially be if put in the right situation with the right coaching staff and continue to develop, I would say Membu, Usury and Simmons, and not necessarily in that order. Simmons, tape. Simmons is beautiful in terms of, like, we'll get the way he moves and all. You know, I have. I have beef.
- [89:17]
Steve Mensch
Go ahead.
- [89:18]
Todd McShay
In terms of traits.
- [89:20]
Steve Mensch
Right.
- [89:21]
Todd McShay
Here's the thing with nursery man and sort through all the other stuff, but on tape, I'm looking at a 6 6, 331 pounder who ran a 5.01 40. I already told you that size with that speed. What it means. I wrote down and. And I. And I believe this to be true and I went back and did a study and I'm not going to wear, wear people out on it. Big guys that move like this don't fail very rarely. Orlando Browns. Dan F. Al Even moving into guard. Dwan Jones. Piece of, you know what coming out. All the problems and all the issues and all that. Starting for Cleveland, Amer. Amarius Mims. Cincinnati. Trent Brown. 6, 7, 3, 355, 7th round pick. Been in the league a hundred years. This guy moves well and he's a big, big dude, man. He surprised me on tape because he's quick and he, he, he. His knee bend. He can bend. I think he has the potential to develop into an elite pass blocker.
- [90:33]
Steve Mensch
I. I do. He certainly has potential.
- [90:37]
Todd McShay
Massive frame engulfs defenders in the run game. Quick, surprisingly balanced. I'm watching all these other guys. They're on their ass. They're getting, they're, they're lunging, they're. Short arm. He's not the longest up, but they're playing short arm. They're off balance. There's nothing worse than watching you. Big o fee offensive line. Here we go.
- [91:03]
Steve Mensch
Here we go.
- [91:05]
Todd McShay
And he's like, he's set, he's balanced. He's on the move.
- [91:11]
Steve Mensch
You know, listen, I've, I've put up a lot with the. I don't, I don't need to see you pass it. That, that, that concerns me. Whatever the duck walk you're doing there. No, no, stop. Yeah, it's bad. It's bad, right?
- [91:27]
Todd McShay
This guy's a left tackle in the league, man.
- [91:32]
Steve Mensch
I don't disagree. You starting him day one.
- [91:35]
Todd McShay
Vastly underrated.
- [91:37]
Steve Mensch
You're starting him day one.
- [91:39]
Todd McShay
Starting him day one. As much as I'm starting Connerly and his weakness and Simmons's immaturity and. Thanks. And his lunging.
- [91:48]
Steve Mensch
We'll get to them in a second.
- [91:49]
Todd McShay
Beat inside and 21 player. If I got to. Yeah. I can start him at guard. Yeah. Kick him back out to tackle the.
- [92:00]
Steve Mensch
Michigan and Penn State teams. Those games. I mean, pack a lunch if you're an offensive lineman, but I didn't love those tapes, man. I think he's, he's not clean as a pass blocker right now. I don't know if I'm, if, if you're New England Patriots. If you're feel comfortable. This dude's going to protect. Protect Drake May's blindside day one.
- [92:18]
Todd McShay
I'm not saying draft him at four men. Don't put.
- [92:20]
Steve Mensch
I'm not saying that. Draft him at Draft him at early second round.
- [92:23]
Todd McShay
I'm saying, you know what if I'm drafting late in the first round, offensive line's a problem. I'm looking at this guy and being like, I'm comfortable with where he is and some of the decisions and some of the other stuff. I'm drafting this guy. 38 games started. 38 straight games. Besides, you know, opted out of the bowl game. A lot of guys did. 5th fastest of the offensive lineman was significantly, significantly that 501 bigger than 3 of the other, excluding members. 5th fastest broad jump, 93 tied for 6 competed at every drill at the combine.
- [93:05]
Steve Mensch
I love when I see that.
- [93:07]
Todd McShay
You know what I mean?
- [93:07]
Steve Mensch
No, I don't know.
- [93:09]
Todd McShay
I like, I get it.
- [93:10]
Steve Mensch
I like it too.
- [93:11]
Todd McShay
Clip this off, Eduardo. In 2029, when we look back, Ariante Ursary will be one of the top three offensive tackles in this class and may be the best or second best offensive tackle from this group. There. I'm done with offensive lineman for the day. You can have the rest of the show.
- [93:33]
Steve Mensch
All right.
- [93:34]
Todd McShay
Really, really.
- [93:36]
Steve Mensch
Put the headphones back on.
- [93:37]
Todd McShay
You can't.
- [93:38]
Steve Mensch
You don't get the tap out. I had to listen to every quarterback, every wide receiver.
- [93:42]
Todd McShay
We're moving on.
- [93:43]
Steve Mensch
We're going to be quick with this next one though because I think this one's really easy. Jonathan Jackson.
- [93:47]
Todd McShay
We're like an hour and a half almost good.
- [93:49]
Steve Mensch
We're an hour because you take. We're 45 minutes because you take so long to talk about all the buzz. Anyways.
- [93:56]
Todd McShay
It's buzzing, baby.
- [93:58]
Steve Mensch
Donovan Jackson, eas. This is the easiest report I think ever. He's a second round guy. I don't think he's a first round guy. He's a. You're going to bring him into your building. He's going to start day one. He's going to start for you for about 12 years. You've taken care of your left guard position for about 12 years when you draft this guy, maybe never goes to a Pro bowl, probably not an all pro player, but he's going to be your starting guard for about 12 years. Just, you know, you've taken care of it. You're not going to have that need again. He's just that solid. And I also don't. I also think he's not a tackle like he did this year, but man, he could pete his ass off when he's out there and he. Of all the guys we talk about maybe, you know, providing depth of tackle, he's that guy. If you get into Trouble and you get an injury and you need to do what Joe Tuney did for the Chiefs. Granted, it wasn't always good, but you need a guy to go out there and compete and do that. Donovan Jackson's your guy.
- [94:52]
Todd McShay
I think I wrote fewer words on Donovan Jackson's report than any other player in this entire draft. And I'm up to easy. Hell of a player.
- [95:00]
Steve Mensch
Maybe not the time.
- [95:02]
Todd McShay
Here's what I got for you. Elite, elite run blocker. As smart as he is physical, NFL guard, starter with four position flex if necessary. Yes, he'll lunge a little bit too much in pass pro, more space he's into, less effective. But I'm grading him now. I'm watching his tape at tackle. Highly efficient, but would never say he's dominant. So while he is an elite, elite run blocker, I'm not saying I don't want people to get confused and think he's like plowing dudes and road grading away. He is just so efficient and smart and his angles and his hand placement, like, I just, I love this guy on tape. I recognize his upside isn't as high as a lot of other guys, but he's. I just, I trust him implicitly. Day one starter at guard and let's move on.
- [95:52]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. See you later. Not any guys. Yeah, I jumped ahead two guys because I this. These are the guys really I think I want to end with. These are the guys that got me hot and bothered. Josh Simmons from Ohio State, I've said for most of the year is the best offensive tackle in the class. And the more I look at it and the more I watch him, the more I'm convinced that was right then. If the New England clip this off, if New England were to take Josh Simmons at 4 Overall, it wouldn't. I wouldn't even blink. He's that damn good.
- [96:23]
Todd McShay
He's that good.
- [96:25]
Steve Mensch
Tell me why I love this.
- [96:26]
Todd McShay
I love when you do this, when.
- [96:28]
Steve Mensch
You talk about how he moves on tape and he's like, oh, he's probably the most talented offensive tackle. I get off all the off the field stuff and I get that there's, there's issues there. I don't know what they are specifically. So I should be clear about that.
- [96:40]
Todd McShay
It's not. It's just.
- [96:41]
Steve Mensch
Remember when Laramie Tunsil had a gas mask on with a bong the night of the draft and everyone was like, oh, I can't draft this guy.
- [96:48]
Todd McShay
Oh, he just got shipped out. Despite.
- [96:51]
Steve Mensch
Oh, everybody in a pro for how many years?
- [96:54]
Todd McShay
Okay.
- [96:54]
Steve Mensch
Just all just. Yeah, you act like because he got traded, it's the player's fault and maybe the team didn't make a bad move. Let's, let's, let's be honest about. Let's evaluate what's happening here.
- [97:04]
Todd McShay
Tell me about Simmons.
- [97:06]
Steve Mensch
He is the most gifted tackle in this class. And I don't.
- [97:10]
Todd McShay
This is, this is what I wrote. This is my first line.
- [97:12]
Steve Mensch
It's not even close.
- [97:13]
Todd McShay
In all caps. Most talented offensive lineman in the class. Dot, dot, dot. Not close, imo, in my opinion.
- [97:23]
Steve Mensch
So we agree. So you're good. Send it in.
- [97:27]
Todd McShay
But we're, But I also wrote like, I, I'd like to see him latch and latch on in space and sustain. Oh, no, I really like his ability to latch on. I'm sorry. This is the part I want to write. See, too talented to be lunging and on the ground as much as it is. Attention to detail, consistency. You can see some of the lazy reports and bad habits in his game when those, when those moments pop up on tape. Yeah, great.
- [97:53]
Steve Mensch
None of them are perfect. We could, we could go through all of them in their little, all their flaws. We just did. There's so many that we talked about. I just don't get it. He's that good. The acl, I think, is the biggest issue here. If we were talking about him, if he had finished the season and he had run through the playoffs where he played those teams that they played, all those great teams, he had, you know, he had gone against Stewart from Michigan and, and he could quiet the concerns and I think he would have, you can argue that he wouldn't have quiet some of the concerns that he got hurt early in the year and he didn't face all these great guys and yada, yada, yada. I think if he had faced them, he would have shown how good he is. And then if we do that, we start having the conversation. I think the acl, maybe not even the medical part of it, the, the. His ability to come back from it because it's not what it used to be. And if they're comfortable with it, it's not going to be a big issue. The biggest issue is it robbed him of a chance to show what he could do against some of these elite guys. I really believe that because I believe the player is so good that I'm willing to bet that if he had played in those games, he would have show he would have put down some great tape that he would have showed up for the showcase games. And if he had, we're now having A very different talk about this player because you are still concerned about him, but you're like, man, did you see him against James Pierce in the playoffs? Just locking them down. Did you see.
- [99:11]
Todd McShay
No, I agree.
- [99:12]
Steve Mensch
Did you see. You know, you see him from number 10 from Oregon. He's just gonna be a stud. You would have seen all of these things. And then you watch the way he moved and, oh, no, his arms are short. Well, he goes to his pro days. His arms actually aren't short. To me, this is a guy that's slipping through the cracks for reasons I don't understand. I think when I do my final rankings, he's going to be higher than I think most people have him. And I just. I can't unsee what I've seen.
- [99:38]
Todd McShay
Plant the flag. Plant the flag.
- [99:41]
Steve Mensch
The other guy who. Personally, I'm a little upset that you abandoned your offensive lineman. I'm gonna be honest with that. Josh Conley Jr. Was your.
- [99:50]
Todd McShay
I've been abandoned. Okay. You just called him dude. You were telling me I would. I want a. A Tucker, go back and clip like November.
- [100:00]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, you're on.
- [100:01]
Todd McShay
But I said, Connerly, don't be shocked if he slips into the first round. What happened was, if you want to be honest for a minute, always what happened was a bunch of other people in this industry went running with that. Okay.
- [100:17]
Steve Mensch
Yep.
- [100:18]
Todd McShay
And now I'm seeing, like, top 15 Conor player. And we both know who these people are. Okay. And so. So now I've got, like, now my name's attached to it, and I'm one of them. And. And then you go to the Senior bowl and he gets plowed backwards by Mike Green on that one on one rep that we all watched, which was awesome and fun. He also was playing right tackle there, and he still has to develop what I was saying back then. And I hang on to it now. One of the smoothest move, moving one of the most athletic tackles in this class. Like, how his hand placement's improving. Like he's getting stronger but still has to improve. Both of those things. Got to get a little bit more core strength. Got to continue to develop his hands. I said I. I'm seeing like a second rounder here. I don't know why he's not in the conversation. Maybe he could sneak into the first. First. And that's exactly. We're. Now I want to check the clip. 14th.
- [101:11]
Steve Mensch
I think you were higher on him.
- [101:12]
Todd McShay
Okay. I may have even said at one point, because you were pissing me off, like, you watch meant she's gonna Go in the first round. I actually have recollection. You watch he'll wind up in the first round when it's all said and done.
- [101:23]
Steve Mensch
But my should be in the first round.
- [101:25]
Todd McShay
I don't disagree.
- [101:26]
Steve Mensch
This is, this is what I think and I think the league will view it differently and that's why I think he will go in the first round. I think so many people have seen that Mike Green rep. Do you remember Abraham Lucas when he came.
- [101:37]
Todd McShay
That's for the media. That's not. I get it.
- [101:39]
Steve Mensch
But I'm just saying this.
- [101:40]
Todd McShay
If you're not NFL teams, I understand.
- [101:42]
Steve Mensch
That'S, that's my point. When I'm saying right now, but Abraham Lucas was a third round pick out of Washington State. He was a right tackle only. I remember loving his tape thinking he was a great player and why was he going so late or why were people so down on him? And he had a bad Senior Bowl. He just did. He had a bad Senior Bowl. But when you looked at his tape, it was a different story. And I'm not comparing the players. It's not a player comp. But it is a little bit of a story comp to me in that he did not have a great senior Bowl. Watch the tape. Look at the numbers. Check out the upside. This is absolutely an offensive tackle to be going in the first. It should be going in the first.
- [102:15]
Todd McShay
Round and he probably will.
- [102:17]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [102:17]
Todd McShay
Because like we said before, these guys that there's a reason that six go five point, whatever go in the first round. And that 1.7, 5.3 going the first round the last five years. Seven four and five the last three years. 4. 00 in the last three years. 1.3 average in the second round.
- [102:39]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [102:41]
Todd McShay
Because you either you're either getting one or you're not.
- [102:45]
Steve Mensch
Right.
- [102:47]
Todd McShay
And last year's second rounders were Patrick Paul, who hasn't played. And Houston's hoping that, I mean the Dolphins are hoping that he can step up. Blake Fisher, Texans. Rosengarten, Ravens, Kingsley for the Chiefs. Who played Sua Matia.
- [103:16]
Steve Mensch
I think so. Man. I'm the worst.
- [103:18]
Todd McShay
Yeah. So. Yeah. And last year was a. In a total, you know, against the grain. It was a zag to the zig. There were zero in 2023, zero in 2022. So I, I, yeah, I think Connerly is very likely to go in the late first. I think Simmons is likely to go in the late first. But people are. There's some, it's just. But all of these guys outside of Banks. Listen to me. When I say this because I'm only going to say it once. Outside of Campbell and Banks, all of these guys got some so and it's and beyond just like the talk in Lee in NFL draft rooms is there's more stuff with these ots this year than we can ever remember. So.
- [104:12]
Steve Mensch
All right, I think it's time to wrap it up. I think a good way to wrap up the offensive line show is to mention that did you see the Frank Leonard retired?
- [104:21]
Todd McShay
No. Yeah, I think that's right.
- [104:25]
Steve Mensch
I, I, I hope that's right because I just think he, well, I think, I hope that's right. I want him to enjoy himself. But just a time to refresh our viewers memories. Frank Leonard was a guy who coached at Richmond. He was my offensive line coach at Richmond and was recently coaching at Penn State and gave us a lot of information about Tyler Warren and I just wanted to give him a quick shout out and say I mean what a human being. And the reason why he's such a great human being is why he was such a great coach. And that's just that he cared about other people so much.
- [104:52]
Todd McShay
He was new.
- [104:53]
Steve Mensch
Yeah, he was new to the offensive line when he started coaching offensive line with us and I remember that man just absolutely working his ass off to learn technique to help us get better. It was always about the players, about getting us player better and it was not easy to play for man. Anyone who knows, I remember I was, we were at a game at Rhode island and I missed the block. My grandparents were there and I won't repeat what Frank Leonard was screaming from the sidelines. I mean he was losing his mind. And then right after the game comes up to my grandmother, hugs her, you know, tells her how much she he loves me, all that stuff and then at the end says but he did miss that block. I mean in fairness to me, he did miss that block but that's what was great about him. I wonder. I hope he doesn't drive his family crazy in retirement but I do hope he enjoys it.
- [105:34]
Todd McShay
Oh, he will.
- [105:35]
Steve Mensch
One of the all time great human beings.
- [105:39]
Todd McShay
January 24th. Sorry Jan. Yeah. January 24th of 2024. This is last year before last, before last year's Senior Bowl. He wasn't headed down there. Wanted me to say hello to Theo Johnson who's playing in the game. He's gonna run a sub 46 Todd. He will measure at 66 right around 66 around 260. Really good ball skills, willing blocker is going to have a really good NFL career. Okay. That's January 2024th on the same day. We're going back and forth. I said, I said, what are your thoughts on Tyler Warren? Because I knew, I knew obviously who wasn't in the class. But I just want to get ahead. He's like, he's staying, but you knew that. He's like, he will in all caps play in the NFL at high level for 10 years. Another guy will measure 6, 6, 2, 6, 7. And he said, smart, smart as hell. High school quarterback, makes all the plays, can block. I imagine with training we'll break 4, 7. Absolutely love him because also, also for your notes, dad played safety at Richmond. I'm sure you knew that. So he started in on me and I look at all these texts, if you can see on his guy, and I go back pages with Frank Leonard, pages with him and text all the players that he's had. Honest, but wanted to make sure with every single one of them, I knew the human, the work he put in. And that's just who Frank was. And if it is the. The time for him to hang it up. He was at Boston College. He was with us at Richmond. Florida, I think. Florida, right.
- [107:36]
Steve Mensch
He's a scout for the Patriots at one point.
- [107:38]
Todd McShay
Scout for the Patriots. He's been all around the league and he's one of my favorites. I'll never forget him coming in the back where he had that back office. He and Coach Durkin. And then. And then later he shared it with. I went on to be the head coach. Mike London. Yeah, Mike London, who came in after just. He would come make Shay.
- [108:02]
Steve Mensch
Just to give you a picture of. Yeah. Frank Leonard. He may not be what you think of as an offensive line coach. He's probably five, ten tops. And he's got. Yeah, his trademark was his little duck walk. I mean, he had his glasses on, thick glasses, and always just super engaged.
- [108:21]
Todd McShay
Never a bad day. He never had a bad day and I'm sure he had plenty of them and we just never would know it. And so, yeah, I mean, he's one of the special guys.
- [108:29]
Steve Mensch
Yeah.
- [108:30]
Todd McShay
You know, we come across a lot of special people, but he's like at that top tier man for me. And I've always appreciated his help with this stuff and I've appreciated him. I went to Boston College one day, men. I told him I was coming over to watch some tape. He set me up in a room. I sat there and just talked to him the whole time. I don't think I watched more than 10 plays. Just caught up with him. I Just want to catch up with him. He's that kind of guy. So I appreciate you doing that. I. I did not know.
- [108:55]
Steve Mensch
Yeah. Good way to wrap the offensive lines.
- [108:57]
Todd McShay
He's too. Yeah, he's too humble to. He would never want to make it about himself and. And for us to do this. So he would never text me and tell me that. But that's awesome. Great way to end it. You, you were nothing short of brilliant match. I. I expected it and I got it. This is fun. I think the producers are gonna be like, well, maybe, I don't know, maybe men's hosting this thing isn't the worst idea. No, this is awesome. This is fun. We're getting close. Hey, back on Wednesday and Thursday. I don't have all the details now, but I want you to hear me if you're watch, still watching or listening. And we appreciate you doing so. Spotify, YouTube, you can watch all the places. You get podcasts. The McShay reports coming out. We got a bunch of stuff coming out this week. A lot of this draft intel that I'm not going to get into on the show will be in there. The mock draft 4.0, the final one will come out. We'll give you all the details that you need. But later this week, we are going to do kind of a mailbag, hopefully some interactive parts, get you more information. In our next podcast, we'll preview that and we'll let you know everything you need to do. But we're going to need some questions from you. What's, like, what's on your mind? What's my team drafting? Where could we go second round? Like, let's, let's dig deep in. That show is all about you. Like the people who have made this kind of start to take off. When we see the num numbers double in the last show from what anything we've ever done, like, it's time to give a little back to what you guys are helping support and put into this show. And so Thursday show is going to be all about you, the audience and what you want to know. And we're going to be here for that. So until then, later this week. Two more shows this week. He's Mensch, my favorite offensive lineman in the world. I'm Mick Shea. We'll talk to you soon. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18/ plus and present in D.C. gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland, hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York.