The MeatEater Podcast

Ep. 845: Can Ruffed Grouse and Woodcock Be Saved?

Host: Steven Rinella
Guest: Dr. Carl Malcolm (VP of Conservation, Ruffed Grouse Society & American Woodcock Society)
Date: March 9, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode explores a critical question facing North American upland birds: "Can Ruffed Grouse and Woodcock Be Saved?" Host Steven Rinella is joined by longtime podcast favorite Dr. Carl Malcolm, a wildlife biologist and now VP of Conservation at the Ruffed Grouse Society and American Woodcock Society. The conversation weaves through forest history, habitat management, the roles of disturbance and human intervention, disease threats, broader conservation funding, and the cultural connections that bind people to these birds and the land. The discussion is rich with ecological nuance, vivid storytelling, and a call to responsibility for hunters and non-hunters alike.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Decline of Ruffed Grouse and Woodcock

• Across much of their range, ruffed grouse and woodcock populations are declining, with some states closing or restricting hunting seasons due to low numbers.
• Grouse and woodcock are indicators of greater changes in eastern forest ecosystems, not just species in isolation.
• Quote – Dr. Malcolm:
  "The story of how these forests have changed, and...what the status of ruffed grouse and American woodcock today tell us about the status of these forests, is the most important part of this conversation..." (10:56)
• Disease (notably West Nile virus for grouse) and habitat loss/change are both key drivers, but habitat is paramount and offers the best lever for positive action.

Forest Disturbance: Then and Now

• Historically, forests east of the Mississippi were dynamic, shaped by disturbance: fire, beaver, bison, elk, passenger pigeons, and indigenous land management (13:55–28:00).
• Loss of these disturbance regimes after European settlement created more homogeneous, closed-canopy, middle-aged forests with far less habitat diversity.
• Quote – Dr. Malcolm:
  "For thousands of years...these forests were tremendously disrupted by a whole host of drivers that have been eliminated from the system." (27:44)
• Without disturbance (natural or human-driven), habitat needed by grouse, woodcock, and many other species disappears.

Logging, Forest Products, and Conservation

• Not all logging is created equal. Unsustainable, exploitative extraction historically damaged forests; today, logging, if done right, is an essential tool for creating diverse, healthy habitat (34:03–44:56).
• Advocates for "active forest management" – logging that considers what is left behind, not just what is removed.
• Declining forest products industry (especially pulp and paper) is a major concern:
  "Without robust forest products industry, the ability to deliver habitat outcomes at scale is tremendously compromised." (64:44)
• Modern stewardship agreements and partnerships (e.g., with the US Forest Service) can generate timber revenue to reinvest directly in habitat improvement (56:12–61:56).

Private Landowners and Responsibility

• Many private landowners want to manage forests well but lack the expertise or resources; organizations like RGS/AWS play a vital support role (45:41–49:00).
• Example of a landowner ("Doug") balancing financial and ecological goals:
  "He's making those decisions with an eye on the financial side...and also thinking about that legacy, you know, it's not ours. It's our turn." (46:27)

Conservation Funding & Declining Hunting Participation

• State agency funding, often tied to hunting license sales, is under threat due to declining hunter numbers (65:00–67:18).
• Dr. Malcolm reframes: it's about broader disconnection from nature—hunting is one of several deep connections to land, but overall apathy poses the greatest threat:
  "Declining participation in hunting is representative of a broader trend that is a real threat to conservation." (67:00)
• Quote – Dr. Malcolm:
  "If you don't have people who feel that sense of responsibility [to land], that is an existential threat." (68:49)

Public Perception, Education, and Nuance

• Many well-meaning people see forest management or tree-cutting as negative ("hands-off equals healthy"), failing to recognize the need for active management and disturbance (74:20–76:37).
• Distinguishment between caring for places versus truly understanding them and their ecological needs:
  "A lot of people care. They just don't care in the right way." (75:28)
• Welcomes non-hunters and broader allies; focused on developing a sense of responsibility, not just appreciation.

Habitat Loss: Irrevocable (Development) vs. Neglect

• The two biggest ecological threats are outright habitat loss ("irrevocable harm" – pavement, development) and neglect (lack of management/disturbance leading to suboptimal habitat) (88:32–91:09).
• Many eastern US forests are middle-aged, closed-canopy, low-diversity stands resulting from regrowth after past logging—now in "mesofication" (shift towards shade- and moisture-loving species: red maple over oaks), with little understory and diminishing oaks due to lack of disturbance and fire (91:09–93:47).

Woodcock: Ecological Outliers and Migration

• Woodcock require habitat at continental scale; their migration makes the system more fragile, needing “quality at the right places at the right times” (96:13–107:03).
• GPS tracking, banding, and new research are sharpening understanding of migratory routes and critical stopover habitats.
• Despite brief local booms, they too are declining continent-wide.

Disease, Predators, and the Primacy of Habitat

• West Nile virus, avian influenza, parasites, and predation are secondary to habitat; good habitat can mediate negative effects (11:55–13:04; 143:00–145:36).
• "Everybody's killing them, man. Like, grouse and woodcock are delicious...but the lever that matters is the habitat." (142:31)
• Predator control is not a practical fix for declining grouse/woodcock.

Conservation Requires Coalition and Community

• Broad partnerships (with groups like the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, American Bird Conservancy, Pheasants Forever, Quail Forever, and the Aldo Leopold Foundation) are essential and celebrated (148:23–151:09).
• Competition between conservation orgs is counterproductive:
  "There's no excuse for there to be a sense of competition among these organizations. We've got to be taking the tact... where they're creating a space to try to elevate the missions of all these different organizations." (148:31)
• Building a "community around taking care of the land" is the RGS/AWS mission, focusing on responsibility and active stewardship (151:11–153:38).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Forest Perception:
  "For thousands of years...these forests were tremendously disrupted by a whole host of drivers that have been eliminated from the system." — Dr. Malcolm (27:44)
• On Modern Forest Management:
  "[Logging] can be a terrible thing, and it can be a tremendous thing...when you talk about logging, what a lot of folks hear is exploitation." — Dr. Malcolm (34:03)
• On Funding and Disconnection:
  "Declining participation in hunting is representative of a broader trend that is a real threat to conservation." — Dr. Malcolm (67:00)
• On Habitat vs. Predators/Disease:
  "Having quality habitat is going to mediate those effects. It's like the thing to do." — Dr. Malcolm (144:07)
• On Shared Conservation Ethic:
  "What we're trying to do is find ways to redeem our responsibilities to the places that we love and help leave these forested ecosystems in a state that's going to be better for wildlife and for people into the future." — Dr. Malcolm (28:32)
• On The Anthropocene:
  "If [humans] are the dominant force [in ecology], then maybe we need to be the dominant force of good as well." — Steven Rinella (120:48)
• On Building Community:
  "What we're really trying to figure out is building this idea of building community around taking care of the land." — Dr. Malcolm (151:38)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 04:46 – Introduction of Dr. Carl Malcolm and his background
• 09:35 – Setting the scene: what’s happening to ruffed grouse right now?
• 13:04–28:32 – Deep dive on eastern forest history, disturbance, and lost ecological drivers
• 34:03–44:56 – Logging: exploitation vs. modern habitat management; forest products
• 45:41–49:07 – Private landowners, responsibility, optimism for bottom-up stewardship
• 56:12–62:07 – Modern stewardship models, Forest Service partnerships, paying for habitat work
• 65:00–69:06 – Conservation funding, hunters, and broader disconnection from nature
• 74:20–76:37 – The difference between caring about nature and understanding its needs
• 88:32–93:47 – Forest loss vs. neglect, “mesofication,” and landscape-scale implications
• 96:13–107:03 – Deep dive into woodcock: migration, GPS data, cross-state connections
• 143:00–145:36 – Predators, disease, and why habitat always matters most
• 148:23–151:09 – Conservation coalitions, joining organizations, the Aldo Leopold connection
• 151:11–153:38 – Ruffed Grouse Society/American Woodcock Society campaign and final thoughts

Key Takeaways

• The fate of ruffed grouse and woodcock is deeply tied to active and thoughtful forest management—without diverse, perpetually disturbed forests, these birds (and many others) are in trouble.
• Disease and predation matter, but nothing outweighs habitat.
• Declining hunting is a symptom of larger cultural disconnection—cultivate connections, whether by hunting, hiking, birding, or volunteering.
• Conservation needs partnerships—no single group can solve these issues alone.
• Well-managed logging and private land stewardship can be powerful ecological tools if done with vision and responsibility.
• Anyone interested in forests, birds, or just ensuring vibrant landscapes for future generations has a stake and a role to play.

To Learn More or Get Involved:

• Join or donate: ruffed.org (memberships include a Sand County Almanac & more)
• Follow conservation partnerships: Ruffed Grouse Society, American Woodcock Society, Pheasants Forever, Quail Forever, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Aldo Leopold Foundation, and others.

Summary curated in the spirit and tone of The MeatEater Podcast: honest, informed, slightly irreverent, and deeply passionate about wild places, wild things, and the people who care about them.