Ep. 861: The Defeat of Coronado

Transcript

Steve Rinella (0:00)

This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.

Clay Newcomb (0:04)

Hey, it's Clay Newcomb here from Bear Grease and I want to tell you about my new 12 and 26 film. Presented by Moultrie and ONX. These are 12 of Meat Eater's biggest and baddest hunts from the last year that are going to be released through 2026. These are long form episodes, or what I call films, so you're going to get more of what you love. My film will take us into the deep and cold, rugged country of southwest Utah on a lion hunt with hounds, where we traveled over 80 miles in five days on mules. But the best part, I'm hunting with the legendary lion hunting family, the Mechams, but also one of the country's top mulemen, Ty Evans. This is about mules and lions. This is the kind of place where winter hangs on tight and every track in the snow tells a story. If you've ever wondered what it's like to pursue a mountain lion in big country on mule back then, this is the episode for you. Check it out now on the Meat Eater YouTube channel and be on the lookout for more 12 and 26 in the coming months.

Steve Rinella (1:21)

This is the Meat Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case, underwearless podcast. You can't predict anything. Brought to you by first light. When I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First light builds. No compromise, gear that keeps me in the field longer. No shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out at first light.com that's F I R S T L I.com joined today by Peter Stark, rejoined by Peter Stark, author, adventurer, here to talk about the insane, insane, almost hallucinogenic, crazy, crazy Coronado Expedition. Yeah, a hallucinogenic quality to the journey was like the some of the first conquistadors to push their way up into the American Great Plains, the Texas Panhandle. And just the wild things. The wild violent defeat that befell the Coronado expedition.

Peter Stark (2:41)

And part of the reason why it was so wild and crazy and hallucinatory, because they had no idea of what was up there.

Steve Rinella (2:48)

No.

Peter Stark (2:49)

00. They called it El Norte Mysterio. So the mysterious North. Yeah. And if you look at the maps from that era, you go north of a little bit, north of where Mexico City is now and it's just, it's literally just blank spaces. And then they kind of sort of shove China in over there on the, on the left side, like China's right about somewhere often. And they're thinking that California, some island. And. And they say, well, we're thinking like China and Greater India are near the island of California. And so these guys are like, you know, talking about going into the unknown. They are utterly clueless and they have a huge expedition and a huge mission.

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast | Ep. 861: The Defeat of Coronado

Date: April 13, 2026
Host: Steven Rinella
Guest: Peter Stark, author of The Lost Cities of El Norte: Coronado’s Quest, the Unconquered West, and the Birth of American Indian Resistance

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the dramatic, disastrous, and ultimately failed 16th-century Coronado Expedition, which sought the mythical Cities of Gold in North America. Host Steven Rinella welcomes back historian and adventure writer Peter Stark – whose latest book details how Francisco Vázquez de Coronado’s massive expedition was undone by the landscape, indigenous resistance, and its own internal chaos. The conversation explores historical myths, native strategies, physical realities of conquest, and the surprising endurance of Native American societies. Along the way, Peter and Steve reflect on deeper themes of resistance, resilience, and the misinterpretation of the American West's timeline.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Myths, Maps & Motivations

The Mysterious North: Europeans in the 1500s referred to the American interior as “El Norte Mysterio”—the mysterious north. Early maps showed blank spaces, China arbitrarily placed on the West Coast, and California as a possible island. (02:49)
- Quote: “They are utterly clueless and they have a huge expedition and a huge mission.” — Peter Stark (03:01)
Myth vs. Reality: Modern readers often laugh at conquistadors’ quests for the Cities of Gold, but they weren’t unfounded; the Spanish had already stumbled onto massive, wealthy empires in Mexico and South America. (17:38–18:14)
Echoes of Other Myths: The French in Canada would later hear and amplify similar indigenous stories, often hearing what they wanted to about lands of gold or fantastical peoples. (34:49–36:15)

2. The Outlandish Survivors: Cabeza de Vaca and Co.

The Prequel: Peter recounts the mind-blowing, often-overlooked saga of four Spanish castaways (including the African slave Esteban) who, after a disastrous 1520s Florida expedition, staggered across the continent to Mexico City. (22:29–26:28)
- Quote: “It is an unbelievable story. They walked from Florida.” — Steve Rinella (26:21)
Fuel for Rumor: Their stories, and indigenous campfire tales along their path, fed rumors of empires and wealth to the north—which directly inspired Coronado’s quest. (33:01)

3. Coronado's Grand Mission

Launching North

Massive Scale: Coronado’s expedition was a colossal logistical feat: 3,000 people, thousands of horses and livestock, and trailing dust over 15 miles. (39:44–44:24)
- Quote: “If you put them nose to tail, it would stretch for 15 miles...think of all that dung.” — Peter Stark (43:00)
Humanitarian Orders: The Spanish Crown, disturbed by conquistador violence, officially ordered Coronado to act humanely with natives. This ethic broke down quickly after the first deadly skirmishes over food, with one leader shot through the eye by an arrow. (41:35–43:00)

Into the Unknown (Arizona, New Mexico)

Into the Pueblo World: As the expedition struggled through hunger (“days of no food” in the Arizona desert), they encountered Zuni pueblos—remarkable multi-story stone communities, not cities of gold. (47:05–48:07)
First Contact at Zuni: At Hawiku Pueblo, a line of cornmeal was drawn in the sand: a ritual line not to be crossed. The Spanish performed a "requirement" (Requerimiento) in Latin—essentially an ultimatum: convert, or be destroyed. (56:36–59:47)
- Quote: “Here’s your choice: One, you accept us...or two, we kill you all and enslave your women and children.” — Peter Stark (58:16)
The Battle & the Turning Point: A misjudged charge up a ladder led to an avalanche of stones—one braining Coronado himself. The Zunis retreated to a “refuge mesa,” and the Spanish found no wealth, only further deprivation. The Zunis, seeing advantage, encouraged the Spaniards to keep moving onward, promising wealth “over there” with the neighbors. (62:52–67:15)
- Quote: “Do you guys have any of this [gold]? The Zunis say no, but if you keep going that way, you’ll find a whole lot of it...”—Peter Stark (67:15)

4. Indigenous Resistance, Coordination & Strategy

Inter-Pueblo Diplomacy: The Zuni and neighboring Pueblos (like Pecos) coordinated, leveraging trading networks and collective councils to misdirect and resist the invaders. (70:45–74:44)
Guerrilla Tactics and Resilience: Unlike the centralized empires of the Aztec and Inca, Pueblo societies’ distributed authority and networked structure made them difficult to “decapitate” or conquer. They used refuges (like Thunder/Corn Mountain), misinformation, and slow-burning attrition (“starve them out”), effectively conducting an insurgency rather than meeting the Spanish in open battle. (70:42–71:12)
- Quote: “Coronado could come up there and slash all he wanted, but it’s not going to make much of a difference.” — Peter Stark (70:42)
Violence and Escalation: As Spanish supplies ran low, relations soured, and violence (massacres, torture, use of war dogs) increased, especially during a brutal winter along the Rio Grande. (79:08–83:09)

5. The Long March and Mutiny

Ever Onward: Chasing rumors, the Spanish ended up as far as Kansas, hoping for golden empires and finding only thriving nomads (the Plains tribes, whom they called "like Arabs" for their mobility). The nomads easily outmaneuvered the invaders by simply moving away. (84:59–86:09)
Internal Collapse: By the end, the expedition was plagued by hunger, exposure, mutiny, and leadership breakdowns. After a second catastrophic head injury (this time kicked by a horse), Coronado fell into depression, paranoia, and was obsessed with past prophecies of doom. He used political trickery to force a retreat south, against the will of many who had risked or invested everything. (86:37–95:41)
- Quote: “He starts out at the head of the grandest cavalcade the New World has ever seen...and comes back two and a half years later, carried on a litter, a broken man with a hundred followers stumbling behind.” — Peter Stark (105:04)

6. Aftermath: The Consequence of Defeat

Coronado’s Fate: The broken leader was coldly received, given menial administrative roles, and subjected to an inquisition for abuse of natives—which he survived, though another captain was convicted. (105:04–107:49)
Psychological Toll: Stark finds remarkable contemporary evidence of post-concussive syndrome—brain trauma noted by those who knew him as, “He’s never been the same.” (107:51–109:05)
Legacy: The Puebloan resistance “thwarted European expansion” for three centuries, resulting in a western U.S. “power vacuum” that remained until the American westward movement after the Civil War. The notion that colonization was a swift, unbroken wave is an illusion; resistance and indigenous agency shaped the map for generations. (110:45–116:45)
- Quote: “In terms of our historical perspective, it’s just, we have such an orientation...the Spaniards were way earlier coming from the south.” — Peter Stark (116:51)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Spanish Myths Not Being So Crazy:
“They weren’t making stuff up...they had found cities where these people are loaded with gold.” — Steve Rinella (18:05)
On the Indigenous Strategy:
“Pick your moments. Washington did that in the Revolutionary War...The way to win is not fight.” — Steve Rinella (101:12)
On Timeline Perception:
“Columbus to the American Revolution is a shorter period of time than Coronado to the US claiming all that country.” — Randall (115:30)
On the Use of Deadly Poisons:
“Spanish were terrified...his arm just started deteriorating and falling off like a piece of a well-done pot roast.” — Peter Stark (123:18–124:42)

Key Timestamps for Major Segments

Historical context of maps, myths, and Coronado’s quest: 02:41–21:24
Cabeza de Vaca’s survival epic fueling gold rumors: 21:32–26:28
The launching and logistics of the Coronado Expedition: 39:44–44:24
First contact with Zuni, the ‘line of cornmeal’ and failed diplomacy: 56:36–62:52
Battle at Hawiku, Coronado’s injury, and native withdrawal: 62:52–67:15
Indigenous coordination and strategic misdirection: 70:42–74:44
Kansas reach, Plains nomads, and mutiny: 84:51–95:41
Coronado’s return, mental health fallout, and inquisition: 105:04–109:05
Long-term consequence: the West’s power vacuum and re-examining American history’s timelines: 110:45–116:45
Discussion of rare plant-based arrow poisons and closing notes: 123:18–125:01

Tone and Takeaways

The discussion blends awe, humor, and a strong sense of empathy for both indigenous resilience and the tragic folly of the invaders. Stark’s vivid storytelling, supported by archival gems and firsthand research, dispels simplistic narratives about conquest, exposing the endurance and sophistication of native societies. Rinella’s outdoorsman perspective adds gritty realism and modern analogies to the tale.

“The Puebloans… really the first line… kept their cultures remarkably intact to this day… This Puebloan blockade kept what’s now the western US in something of a power vacuum in terms of European powers.” — Peter Stark (110:45–112:55)

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