Ep. 874: How To Start A Bison Ranch

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast – Ep. 874: How To Start a Bison Ranch

Host: Steven Rinella
Guest: Matt Skogland, North Bridger Bison
Date: May 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Steven Rinella sits down with Matt Skogland, founder and owner of North Bridger Bison in Montana, to dig into the pragmatic and philosophical nuts and bolts of starting and running a bison ranch. The conversation covers Matt’s unorthodox journey from corporate law and environmental policy to ranching, the ecological and economic roles of bison in North America, hands-on details about animal management, field harvesting, fencing, land acquisition, and building a direct-to-consumer meat business. The episode intertwines personal anecdotes, conservation discussion, and technical advice, all delivered with MeatEater’s signature humor and candidness.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Discovering the Hanger Steak (02:39–06:20)

• Discussion of Bison "Off Cuts":
  • Steven raves about the hanger steak from North Bridger Bison, calling it “some of the best stuff in the world.”
  • Matt explains the hanger steak’s location—right in front of the tenderloins—and notes it’s difficult to extract unless you know where to look. Only one per animal.
  • Notable Quote:
    • Steven: “It just comes right out with the gut pile. And it's kind of like attached to like the liver and the lungs. But once you, once you know, you take it out and there's one per animal, and it's called a hanger. Hanging tender.” (03:23)

North Bridger Bison: The Ranch and Its Philosophy (06:20–08:16)

• About North Bridger Bison:
  • Matt, his wife Sarah, and their kids started the ranch from scratch eight years ago outside Bozeman, Montana.
  • All bison are field harvested on the ranch—no live transport. The ranch raises bison as much in sync with nature as possible and focuses on biodiversity.
  • Meat is sold direct-to-consumer; customers can purchase quarter, half, whole, or special blends.
• Matt on the Mission:
  • “We’re obsessed with details. Strive for excellence...really trying to provide our customers with the best red meat they’ll ever taste in their life.” (07:53)

Matt’s Path: From Chicago to Bison Rancher (08:16–11:18)

• Zero Agricultural Background:
  • Matt shares his background: born in Chicago, law degree, brief corporate law stint, then a career in environmental policy—specifically working on wild bison policy in Montana.
  • Moved to Bozeman in 2008, fell in love with both Montana and the bison species.

The Complex Politics of Wild Bison (11:10–22:11)

• Yellowstone Bison Management:
  • Discussion of the jurisdictional complexities when Yellowstone bison leave the park and become subject to Montana’s joint management as both wildlife (Fish, Wildlife & Parks) and livestock (Department of Livestock).
  • Colorado distinguishes wild bison from livestock: “If a bison walks into the state on its own four legs—it is wildlife.” (13:32)
• Advocacy and Consensus Building:
  • Matt worked to expand tolerance zones for wild bison outside the park, forming a citizen working group that included ranchers, wildlife advocates, and others, and succeeded in changing management for certain areas (such as Horse Butte).
  • “...We actually made progress...the low-hanging fruit. And now...it’s a tough issue.” (19:31)
• Genetic vs. Ecological Extinction:
  • Steven: “We solved the problem of genetic extinction...But...ecological extinction. They’re not a participating member of the natural biome across most of their range.” (21:22)

Ranching as Conservation: The Next Step (22:10–27:32)

• Policy Frustrations and Practical Action:
  • Matt grew frustrated with the limits of nonprofit work and saw that influencing food production and consumer choices has far-reaching impacts on biodiversity.
  • “If we're really going to protect biodiversity...it has to come from how we produce things and how we consume things, like through the business world.”
• Why Bison/Ranching:
  • Already attached to the species through policy work and saw bison as offering conservation value; wanted his life’s work to be practical, measurable, and land-based.

The Role of Private Bison Producers (30:25–33:51)

• Private vs. Public Herds:
  • Steven and Matt agree that private bison producers are essential to keeping the species on the landscape—over 94–95% of North America’s bison are privately owned.
  • Most public/conservation herds are intensely managed or fenced; true “wild” bison are extremely rare.
  • Notable Quote:
    • Matt: “If you really want to split hairs and say, how many wild bison are out there? I mean, it’s a fraction. A fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percentage.” (33:08)

Starting a Bison Ranch: Land, Learning, and Fencing (34:09–56:25)

Getting Started (34:09–46:34)

• Learning the Ropes:
  • Matt read Dan O’Brien’s “Buffalo for the Broken Heart,” inspiring his focus on field harvesting for ethical and meat quality reasons.
  • He attended a holistic management workshop and learned from regenerative consultants, then scoured the internet for land.
  • Land search was demoralizing—until he stumbled upon the right parcel in the Shield Valley in 2018.
  • Memorable Moment:
    • “I was expecting to find, like, a toxic landfill in the middle...And I was like, holy. Like, this is spectacular.” (47:28)

Fencing and Animal Control (51:35–56:25)

• Challenging Common Misconceptions:
  • Some bison producers resist wild bison expansion, fearing animal escapes. Matt explains proper fencing and management mitigate these risks.
• Fencing Details:
  • The ranch uses a 5-wire high-tensile, wildlife-friendly perimeter fence—middle wire is electrified as a psychological barrier, allowing pronghorn to go under and deer/elk/moose to go over.
  • Bison are strongly herd-driven; proper management (food, water, etc.) keeps them in.

Herd Management: Breeding, Weaning, and Escapes (58:33–76:49)

• Herd Structure and Grazing:

  • Normally run as one herd year-round with bulls and cows together; management mimics natural high-intensity, short-duration grazing patterns to benefit grassland ecology.
  • Switch from mature “breeding bulls” to letting sexually mature two-year-olds do all the breeding, reducing escape risk and mimicking natural selection.
  • Calves are self-weaned—“the longer that animal’s on mom, the healthier that animal is going to be for the rest of its life.” (78:56)

• Handling the Unexpected:

  • Stories of bison (especially bulls) escaping; Matt emphasizes the importance of neighbor relations and quick response.
  • “I think there's a second bet of when—when's Matt gonna die.” (43:26)
  • “...If bulls start leaving and walking all over, the neighbors, rightfully so, would be like, what's going on, Matt? Like, have you lost control of your animals?” (66:52)
  • Cows routinely breed for many years (some over 15 calves) and twins are rare but usually survive.

Field Harvest: Ethics, Logistics, and Connection (79:14–90:54)

• Field Harvest Protocol:

  • Matt selects an appropriate animal, takes a careful headshot at close range, and immediately processes the carcass—saves various organs (“tongue, cheeks, heart, liver, kidneys, hanging tender”), and brings the animal to a local butcher for aging and further processing.

• Ethics and Customer Connection:

  • Emphasizes transparency and demystifying the death part of meat-eating. Customers receive photos of their specific animal—alive, freshly harvested, and as a split carcass.
  • Ships directly to customers (half in Montana, half nationwide). Uses recycled packaging, manages whole fulfillment process.

Customer Stories, Supply and Demand, and Building a Business (91:03–104:46)

• Direct Sales and Customer Experience:

  • Every order is handled with personal communication. Demand exceeds supply; customers often become friends through correspondence and shared recipes/photos.
  • “...If the meat tastes like shit, no one’s, no one’s going to buy from us. Right. Like you buy a quarter Bison, 85 pounds of bison meat and you eat your way through it...when you reorder, that...is a great sign.” (75:59)

• Business Confidence and Ongoing Anxiety:

  • Early days brought intense anxiety; now, Matt still “sleeps with one eye open” but feels more secure—though never complacent.
  • “...That summer of 2018...it was like, we might horrifically crash and burn. But we got to try it, because if we don’t, I’ll regret it forever.” (96:00)

Bison Biology Nuggets & Memorable Moments

• Hanger Steak’s Biological Purpose (104:08–104:44):

  • Phil (producer) reports: “It helps. It facilitates the contraction of the diaphragm during breathing and other throat stuff...called the legs of the diaphragm or the crura...has to do with the spinal cord and some esophagus function.” (104:08)

• Historical Anecdote:

  • At the Folsom buffalo kill site, there are no tailbones because hides (with tails) were removed before butchering—tails are both prized meat and a “handle.” (88:18–88:44)

• Steven’s Favorite Clovis Tool Butchering Video (105:06):

  • If you want to see field harvest in action, look up “butchering a bison with Clovis points and tools” on YouTube, filmed at North Bridger Bison.

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Notable Quotes

• On Ecological Extinction:
  • Steven: “Ecological extinction. That they are, like, effectively ecologically extinct. They're not a participating member of the natural biome—across most of their range.” (21:53)
• On Taking the Leap:
  • Matt: “Like. I'd rather go for it and fail than never have tried.” (96:11)
• On Bison Herd Instinct:
  • Matt: “If you really want a buffalo proof fence you need like a 14 foot brick wall...the great thing you have going for you with bison is their herd instinct is so strong. You know, it's tens of thousands of years...programmed...safety's with the herd.” (55:10)
• On Working with Neighbors:
  • Matt: “If bulls start leaving and walking all over, the neighbors, rightfully so, would be like, what's going on, Matt? Like, have you lost control of your animals?” (66:52)
• On Demystifying Death in Food:
  • Matt: “...Death is essential to life and we’re all killing whether it’s for what we eat, what we drive, what we wear, the phones in our pockets, like...it’s just whether you’re aware of it or not.” (84:50)

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Key Timestamps

• Hanger steak and off cut discussion: 02:39–06:20
• History and ethos of North Bridger Bison: 06:20–08:16
• Matt Skogland’s path from law to bison: 08:16–11:18
• Yellowstone wild bison policy & activism: 11:10–22:11
• Private bison producers, game farm debate: 30:25–33:51
• Land search & launching the ranch: 46:00–48:39
• Fencing and keeping bison contained: 51:35–56:25
• Herd management, breeding, and weaning: 58:33–79:14
• Field harvest methods and ethics: 79:14–90:54
• Business practices, customer care, anxiety: 91:03–97:47
• Bison escapes and neighbor relations: 97:47–101:50
• Order handling and field harvest waitlist: 102:20–104:46
• Biology of hanger steak: 104:08–104:44
• Clovis butchering video reference: 105:06–105:39

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a thorough, candid, and sometimes humorous roadmap for anyone curious about starting a bison ranch or simply understanding the ecological, culinary, and business sides of bison production. The dialogue between Steven and Matt weaves together storytelling, conservation philosophy, hard-won practical lessons, and an honest look at the anxieties and rewards of pioneering a modern livestock operation grounded in ecological values.

To learn more or order bison meat: North Bridger Bison
Watch their Clovis tool butchering video: Search “MeatEater bison Clovis points” on YouTube.

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Transcript

[Steven Rinella]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. You ever get that feeling? The walls closing in the concrete jungle suffocating you? You crave some wide open spaces, the chance to connect with nature, maybe in a spot all your own. Well, head over to land.com they've got ranches, forests, mountains, streams, you name it. Search by acreage, you can search by location, you can search by the kind of hunting and fishing you're dreaming of. Land.com it is where the adventure begins. I'm not joking, man. I use Montana Knife Co. Knives in my garage where I handle furs and wild game. I use them out in the field. I use them in my kitchen. They are manufactured locally in Montana. They are designed, tested, and built by hunters. Montana Knife Company is a hunting knife company first and foremost. And if you ever need your knives sharpened, just send them back and. And they will sharpen them for free. Montana Knife Co. Working knives for working people. MKC knives sell out within minutes of being released. So head over to montanaknifecompany.com to see what's available Now. Service opens doors. And at American Military University, it can open doors for the whole family. If you have a loved one who served in the military, you may qualify for for reduced tuition. AMU offers flexible online programs designed to fit your schedule so you can keep moving forward wherever life takes you. Learn more at amuapus.edu Military open doors to the future for you and your family with the help of American Military University Foreign. This is the Meat Eater Podcast. Coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case, underwearless.

[Matt Skogland]

The Meat Eater Podcast.

[Steven Rinella]

You can't predict anything. Brought to you by first light. When I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds. No compromise gear that keeps me in the field longer. No shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out@first light.com. that's f I R S T L I T E dot com. All right, man. Joined today by Matt Skogland from North Bridger Bison. A private. Like. Like a. A buffalo rancher.

[Matt Skogland]

Exactly.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. I'll tell you the first thing I want to tell you about is, dude, the, the. The. The hanger stakes.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

That you gave me.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

You give me off those animals is like. Is. I hate to say it because I should be saying this about like deer meat or something, but dude, that is some of the best stuff in the world, man.

[Matt Skogland]

I know. It's so good. It. We. We eat a bunch of them and it's like the flavor, texture. Yeah. They're just so good.

[Steven Rinella]

Hey, tell people. Because that's not. Like if you're cutting up a deer right, hanger steak isn't on the menu. You know, I mean, like, like tell people what? Like it's, it's off cut.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. So it's funny. So it's this, it's this steak that hangs suspended right in front of the tenderloins. And so early on I would, you know, I kill a buffalo, gut it, take it to Amsterdam meat shop, our butcher, and they'd be like, where's the hangar? I'd be like, guys, like, what are you talking about? And they're like, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right here. And I'd be out there by myself. I'm like, I'm like, are they messing with me? Like, I cannot find this thing. And I had to YouTube it, but so it's. It's hanging and it's suspense and it's, it's covered in like fascia skin. It doesn't look like anything. And if you didn't know, it just comes right out with the gut pile. And it's kind of like attached to like the liver and the lungs. But once you, once, you know, you take it out and there's one per animal, and it's called a hanger. Hanging tender.

[Steven Rinella]

What does that thing's purpose?

[Matt Skogland]

Man, I don't know. I've wondered the same thing.

[Steven Rinella]

It'd be easy to find out what it does for the animal, right? Like, if he was born with no hanger, would he know it?

[Matt Skogland]

That's a great question.

[Steven Rinella]

Would he walk funny or something?

[Matt Skogland]

I know, yeah, it's just, just this weird muscle just literally hanging. And they used to call it vomit.

[Steven Rinella]

Hey, Phil, if you get a minute, like when you're over there, do whatever you do over there.

[Matt Skogland]

Sure.

[Steven Rinella]

What like purpose does it serve?

[Matt Skogland]

The hanger?

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, like what is it doing for the animal?

[Matt Skogland]

Sure. I'll do some quick research here.

[Steven Rinella]

We should all know this.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. 100 it does.

[Steven Rinella]

It just. I think it's just meant to be a good thing to eat. It's like a gift from God to humans.

[Matt Skogland]

Exactly.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

Literally. Because it just hang there and you cut it out. Cut that tendon out and you got two beautiful sticks, dude.

[Steven Rinella]

So when. When you the ones. Well, let me, let me explain why I'm talking about this. We do, we did a dinner recently right here at our office and, and I called Matt and I was, I was looking for some of the like, added value product or some of the not standard products that would Come about.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

You know what I didn't hit you up for? Is it some tails, man?

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, yeah, yeah. We. Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

So he. He gave me some marrow bones.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay. Some hanger, steak, heart. Trying to think what else we had in there. I think some shank pieces.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, yeah, yeah, Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

Shank pieces.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

And we cooked all this stuff up. So we did this big meal of all like, sort of the non. Like non typical, non standard things from. From one of your animals. And the hangers, we just marinated them.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

And grilled them and then kind of cut them against the grain. Dude, it's the. Yeah. Like, it is a. It is a perfect food.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. 100.

[Steven Rinella]

That's amazing.

[Matt Skogland]

And the thing that's cool. Me, you can. I've done it multiple times where I'll kill a buffalo, gut it, and just grab the hanger for us, and we'll eat it for dinner, you know, six hours later. Perfect. Like, so good.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, yeah. Tell people. Tell people specifically what you do. Like. Like what your business is.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Like how you make your living.

[Matt Skogland]

Totally. So pretty straightforward. So my wife Sarah and I and our kids, Adam, Greta, we started our bison ranch, North Bridger Bison. We started it from scratch eight years ago. And we're located.

[Steven Rinella]

Is that all it's been?

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, you kick. You're kicking ass for eight years.

[Matt Skogland]

No thanks.

[Steven Rinella]

You've just been doing it eight years.

[Matt Skogland]

Eight years. Oh, wow. And so, yeah, we're up in The Shield Valley, 30 miles northeast of Bozeman. And we. It's pretty simple. We. We raise bison as well and in sync with nature as possible. We're all about biodiversity. And then we sell. We raise them for meat, sell 100% direct to consumer, and then every bite, and we sell by the quarter, half whole bison. And then everyone we sell, I personally field harvest each bison. So no live bison leaves the ranch field harvested to yesterday. And yeah, so I kill them on the ranch, bleed them, gut them, and then ultimately take them to our butcher, Amsterdam meat shop. And then we either deliver it to the customer and then we ship all over the country and that's it. We keep it super simple.

[Steven Rinella]

How do people go like, like, how do people come find you?

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, our website. So literally just northbridgerbison.com and then like shop, meet and chose. What options are there? So there's quarter, half, whole, and then an all ground bison option and then a primal blend, which is ground bison with some heart and some liver.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, okay.

[Matt Skogland]

Which is. Yeah, and that's it. So, yeah, we keep it like we were obsessed with details. Strive for excellence. So we don't want to get spread thin chasing shiny little objects. So it's raising buffalo as well and in sync with nature as possible and then really trying to provide our customers with the best red meat they'll ever taste in their life.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, like, walk me through, like, how did you. How did you get interested in Jimmy? Like. Like, why that animal and not sheep or cattle or. Totally goats, you know, or giraffes or something? Like, like, why that? Right.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. So I guess to like to back up. So. So I'm born and raised in Chicago. Zero background in agriculture whatsoever. And then we moved to Bozeman 18 years ago, 2008. And I spent 10 years doing environmental policy work for a conservation organization. And the. The main issue I worked on was bison. Focus on wild bison.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

Mainly the bison population around Yellowstone National Park. And just, you know, fed. Fell head over heels in love with the species.

[Steven Rinella]

So you were doing that as an attorney?

[Matt Skogland]

So. No. So, yeah, so went. Went to law school, had a short stint as a lawyer. Realized very quickly that being a lawyer was just not for me.

[Steven Rinella]

Got it.

[Matt Skogland]

And. But had this, you know, you were

[Steven Rinella]

doing like normal corporate law, dog and.

[Matt Skogland]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

So you have a billboard on the side of the highway. Skogland gets tough for you.

[Matt Skogland]

You know, I love it. No, we. No. So I graduated in 05. Hurt. Call Skogland. Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Kick their ass.

[Matt Skogland]

Graduated 05, clerked for a federal magistrate judge in Chicago for a year.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Matt Skogland]

Incredible, amazing guy. We're still very close. He married Sarah and me and then.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, really?

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. And then I went to a big firm for two years, which I knew wasn't for me long term, but it's a good place to start. And then we were just.

[Steven Rinella]

And what kind of law was that?

[Matt Skogland]

Just. Yeah, corporate litigation. Big firm. Just a grind.

[Steven Rinella]

Like suit and tying it probably not.

[Matt Skogland]

Suit and tie not. But you had it. You. You kept a suit and tie behind your. The door to your office.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Matt Skogland]

In case a partner called you at like 2:00 clock and was like, hey, go to court. You're like, I gotta throw a tie on.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And then we were just. We were dying. I'd fall in love with Montana, Northern Rockies. Long time ago. And we were dying to move out here. So we, we. In 08, we were just like. We were getting married and we just felt it's now or never. Like, if we don't do this right now, life's just going to get more complicated. You have a kid and so you'll

[Steven Rinella]

get all dug in.

[Matt Skogland]

Exactly.

[Steven Rinella]

Everything will be a pain in the ass.

[Matt Skogland]

And 100. So we. So we. We quit our jobs, got married, moved to Bozeman. Friends and family thought we were batshit crazy. And we were like, nah, we're just. We're doing it. We'll figure it out. And. And at that point, I knew I was. I did not want to be a lawyer. And so I. This was a dream job for me. It was non litigation policy rule.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay. Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

So it's like the perfect job for a former lawyer. And the main issue I worked on was bison. So, you know, like.

[Steven Rinella]

Like, let's talk about that. Let's. Let's talk about that issue.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Because you talk about, like, around the park.

[Matt Skogland]

Right?

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. So I. I just want to. I want to. We've Talked about this 100. We talk about this all the time on the show.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

It's like a. It's a subject I'm deeply interested in. You're. You're going to know more about it than me. As much or as much about it as me as more. And you're going to know different aspects of it. But when. When you're talking about that, I'll just tee it up and you can comment on where you want. Is. Is there's this just never ending conversation. Right.

[Matt Skogland]

Right.

[Steven Rinella]

It. Like, I mo. I. I moved to Montana in 1996. I think it was nice. Yeah. 96. It was being talked about then.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

It's being talked about now. Yep. It's basically, what is the relationship. What are the relationships between the states of Montana and Wyoming with the bison herd that resides in Yellowstone National Park?

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

You can't separate all these things totally out. Right. There's this. There's this great quote about the park. It's like, it's like, whatever. It's 2 million acres of paradise surrounded by reality or something like that.

[Matt Skogland]

Right.

[Steven Rinella]

So it's like there's these thousands. Thousands of animals that live within the park.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

But wild animals aren't good at recognizing, like, jurisdictional boundaries.

[Matt Skogland]

Of course. Right.

[Steven Rinella]

And so they're routinely spilling out of the park into surrounding private lands, national forest lands. And there's just a constant debate about what should the state's tolerance for these animals be? What should be their designation.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep. Oh, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Currently. And you know, pardon me, listeners, we talk about this all the time on the show currently. And it blows my mind if a buffalo walks out of the park onto into Montana, it crosses the park border. Yep. It becomes livestock. Right. Because the state doesn't recognize any real difference between the owned livestock animals and the wild free roaming animals. An interesting hook here to say that there is a way that this can work out. We've talked about this too. Colorado recently. I don't know if you just saw this. Colorado recently passed legislation.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

That says if a. A bison walks into the state on its own four legs. Right. It is wildlife. Right, right. Drawing a distinction.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

And not to like discredit private producers.

[Matt Skogland]

Totally.

[Steven Rinella]

Or not to take private producers property from them, but drawing a distinction between some of these are wildlife.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

Some of these are livestock. And recognizing that there's. There's two versions.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

Which is a pretty like. I don't know. I was, I was quite pleased with that distinction over there.

[Matt Skogland]

For sure. For sure.

[Steven Rinella]

With that little bit of setup. What. What aspects of this did you work on?

[Matt Skogland]

So. Well, one, I think so my understanding. And I. I don't follow it as closely. But in Montana, the dichotomy, if you will, is that. So when. When they're in the park, they're wildlife.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And then they, they literally step over this boundary that like you said, they can't see.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

They enter Montana and. And at that point they're jointly managed between Fish, Wildlife and parks. The managed wildlife and then the Department of Livestock.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

The managed livestock, but like old.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

So they're. I mean, I'm splitting hairs, but you know, because they have.

[Steven Rinella]

You're correct.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. Yeah. So. So. So it's like fish, Wildlife and parks would say that's a wildlife species. But we have joint management with Department of Livestock and that's the only species in the state that has that. And so what, what. What I worked on very succinctly was expanding the tolerance for Yellowstone bison outside the park in Montana.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

Because we've got, you know, millions of acres of public land where bison are not welcome. And. And the thing that was cool was we actually made progress. Like it's this issue.

[Steven Rinella]

Like you just laid out those tolerant zones.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. And they weren't. So when I started on it, there were. It was. There was much less tolerance for bison outside the park. And there was this group of us. And you'll appreciate this. So. So, you know, the Yellowstone bison are managed under the interagency bison management plan, the IBN P. That all stems from a lawsuit between the state of Montana and the feds and a negotiated settlement in 2000. And so it's Montana. What's Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks, Department of Livestock, the Forest Service, the Park Service, usda, aphis which is the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, and then the Intertribal Buffalo Council. NEZ perceived CSKT and they, they, they wanted to see more tolerance outside the park. And they, and, and oh, there, there was a, a Congressional Review report that came out in like 2006 or something. And one of the criticisms was that the IBMP partners weren't getting enough citizen feedback and acting on it. And, and so they would talk about it. They had three meetings a year. A winter meeting. Yeah, I think it's three meetings a year. And they would, and it was like three years they spent talking about finding a way to get more citizen input. And they were struggling with it because you've got state, tribal, federal entities. And I could see it didn't come. They were acting in good faith. They were just struggling with a mechanism to do this. And there was this one meeting where the former state veterinarian, Marty Zaluski, who's a really good guy and a good friend of mine, and he was frustrated and he's like, look, you know, we've been trying this for three years and we're stuck. And he's like, there's nothing to stop the citizens, the people that are concerned about this from starting something. And he said, he goes, you know, if Matt Skogland, a bison advocate, and Ariel Overstreet from the Montana Stock Growers came to me and said, we think you should do this, he's like, that'd be powerful if you had wildlife advocates and stock growers. And so after that meeting, Ariel and I and a few others, this great local sheep rancher, Becky Weed, we formed this citizens working group that the agencies all supported. The former Region 3 Fish, Wildlife and Parks Director Pat Flowers was a huge help, Mary Erickson from the Forest Service. And we got this just very diverse group of people. It was a couple ranchers, wildlife advocates, hunters, local business owners, and gardener in West Yellowstone, landowners. And we basically, and we spent, it was a facilitated process for over a year. And we came up with consensus recommendations, delivered them to the agency partners, and they actually acted on it. And so some of them were like, they were pretty simple. Like, the best example I can give was that the Horse Butte peninsula north of West Yellowstone is this peninsula that goes out into Hebgood Lake and on the east side is bordered by Yellowstone Park. 25 years ago, there was a public grazing lease and a private cattle ranch on Horse Butte. The, the federal grazing leases have been permanently retired and that private ranch was bought and the cattle are gone. But so you have this peninsula that never has a cat, a cow on it ever. And we're still using tax that. We were still using taxpayer dollars to haze bison back into the park to protect cattle that literally don't exist. And everyone agreed. We're like, this is crazy. And so stuff like that that we were able to agree on present to the partners and they expanded the tolerance and that was like really satisfying work and I would say. But now I feel like, you know, I feel like we accomplished all the low hanging fruit and now it's just, it's tough. It's a tough issue.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

When you mentioned that, that I don't want to spend too much time on the subject, but when you mentioned that like joint management there has been for sure like the bringing in public hunts.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

Right. So, so there are, they're like there are of the animals coming out of

[Matt Skogland]

the park in the winter.

[Steven Rinella]

There are tribal hunts.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

There are public draw hunts.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

I put in for one of the, I put in for. There's three, there's three different hunt codes or hunt availabilities.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

I put in for the one that you're never going to draw.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Every year I put in for that one.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

So there are. And like guys here in the office have drawn, have drawn the tags. And so the, there is a, there is an increased management perspective.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

But it is not as clean as, it's not as clean as what, say, elk? Enjoy.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, yeah. No, not even close.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. No, it's a, it's a, it's a complicated issue with unfortunately, no, no clear end in sight.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Yeah. So when you were doing that and you were involved in, in, in trying to restore the animals as wildlife.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

And I think I want to add one interesting point about that is when I first got into the subject all these years ago, someone had mentioned like we had solved the problem of genetic extinction. Huh.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep. Right.

[Steven Rinella]

Like if you go back to 1900.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

There was a real risk of the species going genetically extinct or going through like really terror. You know, it did go through terrible bottlenecks. But there was like there was a time when, like I've made this point before. There was a time when a lightning bolt could have feasibly killed a significant percentage of all the animals that existed.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

I mean they, they were bottlenecked down big time. And so people are like, we solved the problem of genetic extinction.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Right. Like we got different source herds and conservation herds scattered around. Like there's no thing that's going to happen. Right. They're separated. There's not like some like strain of anthrax is going to all of a sudden infect a herd and kill off half the animals known to exist. So like genetic extinction. But they pointed out that ecological extinction. Oh yeah. That they are like effectively ecologically extinct.

[Matt Skogland]

For sure.

[Steven Rinella]

They're not a participating member of the natural biome.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Across most of their range.

[Matt Skogland]

100.

[Steven Rinella]

Right.

[Matt Skogland]

And you would.

[Steven Rinella]

And your work was sort of addressing.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

That like ecological extinction.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

And then you eventually got into a line of work that sort of like addresses it from a whole other angle. Right, right. What was the connection between the two things? Like you're working on behalf of wild animals and then you decided to get into, into ranching them on deeded land that you own.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, very, very well said. And so for me it was, you know, I, I spent 10 years at this organization and just over time, the nonprofit environmental policy work, it's, it's frustrating because you lack control. And so like the example I always give, you know, there's been this push to restore buffalo in central Montana, in and around the Charles M. Russell National Wildlife Refuge, Missouri breaks and blah, blah, blah. And the state did all this work to tee it up with a very, very, you know, start with a very small population. And you know, and I'd meet with like a state agency scientist and a federal agency scientist and I'd be like, you know, you guys need to do this. And they'd say, Matt, we couldn't agree more with you. But politically that's a non starter. And you go back to your office and you're like, what are we doing? Like, they have these public meetings, people write letters, they have this whole thing and it's a dog and pony show.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

Because it's a political decision that whoever the, the power that be is at that time is not going to make. And so I just. You feel like you're spinning your wheels.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And so I just started to get frustrated with that process. And at the same time I, you know, and you know, conservation groups are super important. I respect the hell out of that work. I just found it wasn't for me. And I also found like, big picture, I didn't think, I don't think that it, that that work really moves the needle the way people think it does. And I say that because I, you

[Steven Rinella]

know, explain that to me.

[Matt Skogland]

You see these groups that, you know, you get these fundraising emails, you know, donate $50 to Save the Whales, donate $50 to Save the Elephants. And, and so someone Someone writes a check for $50 and they feel like, all right, I did, I did my, I did my public duty for wildlife, biodiversity conservation for the year. And then the rest of their, and the rest of their life, they don't really think about it.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And so that $50, you know, it's like a, it's like a giant wildfire and, you know, putting an ounce of water on it, it doesn't do anything.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And so if we're really going to protect biodiversity, which, you know, we're in the middle of an extinction crisis, it has to come from how we produce things and how we consume things, like through the business world. And I, I just, that can't, that just became very clear to me. And so I wanted to leave the nonprofit world, go into the for profit world. And, and I was really attracted, but to food, because, you know, when you think about it, we have billions of people on the planet and if you're lucky, you get to eat three meals a day. You factor that out across the billions of people on the planet and you realize very quickly that the production of food has enormous environmental and social consequences. And then very simply, I also, I just like, I love Aldo Leopold, I love land. And so to be able to like work on a piece of, a piece of ground that you can touch, smell, feel, watch it through the seasons, hopefully improve it, increase the biodiversity and then provide food for people that is, you know, amazing for the environment, amazing for them, great for biodiversity. Like, that just really appealed to me. And then, and, and, and so I had fallen in love with bison. And, and so that's why we, you know, there's, I always joke, like there's some parallel universe where we're doing the same thing with grass fed beef. I just, I love bison and we wanted to do it with bison. And then also, you know, we still, you know, we've only got 400 or 500,000 bison in North America. And so our herd, you know, it adds, ultimately, it helps with the, the long term conservation of the species.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

But, yeah, so that, that's why we did it.

[Steven Rinella]

That's one of the things that I've always admired about the producers and when I, and I've always defended producers like you because it helps it, like it, you know, it, it puts the animals on the landscape and puts the animals where people can see them.

[Matt Skogland]

Absolutely.

[Steven Rinella]

Do you know what I mean? And it's like, but it puts them on native range.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, dude.

[Steven Rinella]

You know what I mean?

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more with that. Like there's so much fear around bison because they've been gone for so long.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And so people are just scared of them. Right. Like I joked, like, early on, I'm like, people think that bison are going to, like, go down and rob the bank, like, with a. With a. With, you know, like, they're just evil. And then they're out there, like, for. On our ranch. They're out there, people see them and they're like, huh? They're just doing their thing.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And so, yeah, that, That's a big. I think about that a lot. Like a big thing that we. I feel like a big service we provide is just comfort, familiarity with the species that most people either never see or they're like, it's only in Yellowstone. And, and so, yeah, it's, it's. It's making people more comfortable with bison back on the landscape.

[Steven Rinella]

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[Steven Rinella]

It was funny because I have a deep suspicion of. Suspicion, in some cases, dislike of the captive servant. Oh, industry.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay. Like, because raising deer, raising elk, those aren't absent from the landscape.

[Matt Skogland]

Totally.

[Steven Rinella]

Do you know, I mean, like, those are, like, ecologically viable.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Creatures that are. That are sort of, like, culturally ingrained and have people that are willing to stand for them. There's organizations that defend their habitat. Right. Biologists that work on their behalf. There's this whole, like, infrastructure of deer and wild deer and elk support. I just, I've always read the bison thing different because they're otherwise absent. I think it's, you know, I know it fluctuate. Fluctuate, maybe by like a part of a percent over recent years, but 94 or 95% of the animals in existence, of the bison in existence are privately owned. 100, if you scratch those off. You. You have, you know, there's what, like I said, like, half million. Yeah. Of the animals you. You, like, scratch away the privately owned ones and you're looking at a 95% reduction.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. No, I.

[Steven Rinella]

It's just like you've reduced it to next to nothing.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. And I'll take it a step further. I mean, one, I couldn't agree more. I hate game farms. And it's funny, I quote you all the time because when we met years ago when you spoke at the Montana Bison association conference, you. You laid it out perfectly. You were like, I hate game farms. Exactly what you just said. But bison is this weird. This. It's this unique thing where it makes sense. And we're not a game farm. We're a ranch, but we're, you know, the importance of private ranches for buffalo. And. And so, yeah, it's like 90. Something like 95% of the population of bites in North America are on ranches, like, are on ranches like ours. And then even the conservation herds that, that are out there, the majority of those, almost all of them, aren't wildlife. Like, to me, a wildlife species I know you would agree, is it goes wherever the hell it wants to go.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And. And so, like, whether it's Custer, Wind Cave, Teddy Roosevelt, these various parks, they're ultimately fenced, they're managed. They, you know, they round the bison up and even Yellowstone. Right. Like, they're not allowed to freely roam. And so if you really, like, if you really want to split hairs and say, how many wild bison are out there? I mean, it's a fraction. A fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percentage.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. You have. I recently did sort of a roundup of. Of. Well, I try to define wild.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

And it'd be like something that can cross political boundaries.

[Matt Skogland]

Totally. Right.

[Steven Rinella]

When you get down to hers. That are allowed to cross political boundaries.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Without ch. Without management status changing as they cross political boundaries. I mean, you get into, like, small handfuls. There's a handful in Alaska that can cross political boundaries.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

The Henry Mountains. I mean, you know. Yeah. The north rim of the Grand Canyon.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

There's something cross political boundaries, but. And you could go on and name a few. But I mean, we're talking about handfuls of animals.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. Tiny, tiny number of animals.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

And they're, you know, they're doing some super cool work. We had a guest on, talking about, like, they're doing some really cool work in Alaska. I listen to that one, you know, to, To. To bring in like a sort of phenotype eco type of the animal called a woods bison.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Bison into Alaska.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Which is cool work. But how, like, when you decided to go down this path, like, how'd you even start getting into it? Do you know what I mean?

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

And what is the. What was the sort of capital investment required?

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. No, so it's, It's a funny story. So literally, I, I'm not exaggerating because I worked on bison at Yellowstone Bison. I have a. I had a Google alert for Yellowstone bison. One day I get a Google alert that there's a Bozeman Daily Chronicle article on the national bison. The National Bison association had just had their summer conference in Big sky and they did something at TED Turner's Flying D Ranch.

[Steven Rinella]

And that's the producers. That's like the Producer association, because there's national. I don't know if it's even. Is National Bison Society active?

[Matt Skogland]

I don't know, but either way, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

National Bison Associations of Producers.

[Matt Skogland]

Exactly.

[Steven Rinella]

Organization.

[Matt Skogland]

Exactly. And so the article just said that they had their summer conference in Big sky and that demand for bison meat was growing. They were looking for more producers. And I literally read the article, and I was like, man, I'm like, that sounds so cool. Clearly, not for me as a kid from Chicago, but for somebody, that's going to be awesome.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And I just want. I want to. I went about my day, and. And then a couple months later, it was still, like, kicking around my brain, and I was like, God, I feel like there might be something there. But I was like, you know, to, like, give buffalo this great life on a ranch, and because they haven't been domesticated, shipping them to slaughter is, like, super high stress. So there's like, an ethical, humane component to that. And then all that stress negatively impacts the quality of the meat.

[Steven Rinella]

Can I. Can. I want to tell you a story about that. You, Bill, share your own. But.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

When I. I lived in Mile City for a couple years.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

And I live next to a guy that had a slaughter plant.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Some days he was inspected. Yeah. Like, some days on his schedule when he was federally inspected, and some days on his schedule and he did custom slaughter. And I remember telling me, man, he. He used to try and had quit bringing in. Bringing in bison for custom slaughter. You said they're just too crazy.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, yeah, They're. Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

I mean, I like to try to bring them into his facility. He would have had to change a bunch of stuff. It was, like, too chaotic.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, 100%.

[Steven Rinella]

To bring him into his facility. And then. And then shipping them was very tough.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. And it's just. Exactly. It's super high stress. Also, lots of bruising. You know, you throw a bunch of bison on a truck, and they're. Whether it's intentional or unintentional, they're goring each other a lot of bruising.

[Steven Rinella]

He mentioned that, and he eventually just got done with it.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, a lot of guys do that. And so. So I was like, yeah, I just. I don't want. That's just. Each to his or own. That's not for me. And then I read this. This amazing book, Buffalo for the Broken Heart, this memoir by Dan o', Brien, who. Who, you know, a lot of people bring that book up it's an amazing book. He started Wild Idea Buffalo in South Dakota. Huge hero of mine. And in that book, you know, I'm avid hunter. And in that book he. He talks about. So he pioneered the modern day field harvesting of bison.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Matt Skogland]

Which, you know, you've seen it because you were up on the ranch with your kids that one day when I field harvested one. Oh. And then obviously the Clovis experiment, but it's basically just instead of, you just reverse the process. So instead of shipping them to slaughter like yesterday, I just drive out to wherever they are that day. And it's a headshot with a copper bullet from like 12 yards. And it's instant, like, as ethical and humane as it gets. The meat's amazing. And so when I read, literally when I read about field harvest in that book, it was an instant light bulb moment. I was like, I didn't know this existed. This is the way to do it. And I know there are people that are going to resonate with this because I just kept meeting people that were like, I've seen Food Inc. I've read Michael Pollan. I'm done with meat. Yeah. And I don't hunt, but if my neighbor kills an elk and gives me 30 pounds of elk, I'm like, oh, my God, it's like the greatest thing ever. I'm like, oh, so you're not done with meat. You're done with, like the factory farming hell that you see in documentaries, which I totally get. So. So Dan o' Brien's book is what sent us on this path.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And then my next step was like, okay, I know absolutely nothing. So I literally went to Google and typed in bison ranching consultant. And then there's amazing guy Roland Cruz, who lives in Bozeman and is just a general, like, regenerative ranching consultant. Works a bunch with cattle ranchers, a bunch with bison people. And we met for lunch in Bozeman, and I was telling him my story and he kind of cut me off and he's like, you should I teach this holistic management workshop on a bison ranch? You should come to it. And I took it in two ways. One, like, this would be very beneficial for you. And then two is like a test. Like, are you a dreamer or are you wasting my time or are you serious?

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Matt Skogland]

So I went to his. I went to his workshop and then I came back, like, all excited. Like, to Sarah, I was like, we, we got to do this. But. And I still had this, like, you know, insecurity or just kind of, you Know, anxiety around it of like, I just thought if you didn't grow up ranching, you couldn't be a rancher. But I'm like, we'll just keep putting one foot in front of the other.

[Steven Rinella]

That's a. Yeah, that's pretty reasonable. It is, man. And you know, you brought something up that I wish I had. I can't believe I didn't mention it. If, if, if you. You folks listening have ever seen our YouTube video where we worked with some anthropologists and archaeologists to do an experiment with using stone tools to butcher that. That was Mass place.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. So I should have made that connection because. Because people love that video. I know. That was one of your animals on your place.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep. That was. Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

And then we got to eat all that meat. That was good.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, that was, that was, that was. That. That was such an amazing day. I like that morning I said to Sarah, I'm like, look, like, I don't know what time I'm gonna be home, but like 11, midnight. Like these. The boys are gonna be working with headlights. Just that. I'm just like that. That's the deal. And like four o'. Clock. You guys were like, we're good.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, I couldn't believe it either.

[Matt Skogland]

Bones were crystal clean. Like it was. It was so impressive.

[Steven Rinella]

It worked out good. The other point you made that I wanted to comment on is like not growing up around it.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Cuz that's a thing. When I hang out with buddies of mine that grew up around livestock. Be like, like cattle guys, horse guys, whatever. When they look at something, they see a thing that I don't see. Totally do, you know, I mean like buddies of mine that grew up on, you know, that grew up horseback. Right?

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

I look at a horse, I just see a hor. You know, I mean, I'm like a horse. Maybe I'll get like that it's got an old vibe to it. Or I might get that it's got like a somewhat unpredictable vibe to it.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

They look at it and they see like its whole history.

[Matt Skogland]

Totally.

[Steven Rinella]

They see the history of its parents. You know, I mean, they like, they. They just see things.

[Matt Skogland]

Not to mention like with cattle.

[Steven Rinella]

Like a c. You know, some cow standing there. I'm like, there's a cow standing over there. They're like, something's wrong with that cow. That cow's got whatever the cow is. This the cow. Like you can't. I. I've always felt you. You'll never catch them.

[Matt Skogland]

Nope.

[Steven Rinella]

You'll never catch up to him.

[Matt Skogland]

No chance. You know, not to mention, like, you know, they could be standing there and, you know, the truck breaks down and they're like, I've got baling twine, a toothbrush, a can of WD40 and a tin of tobacco.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And they'll, they'll fix the truck.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

Like, like mine. Our neighbors, they're amazing humans and like. And yeah, I'll never, you know, I will never have their level of knowledge.

[Steven Rinella]

You'll never catch no chance.

[Matt Skogland]

And I respect the hell out of them, like, so much. I've learned a ton from them. But, but the interesting thing, so when we were, when we were going down, you know, I, I literally, I. I would say to Sarah, I'm like, I'm like, I think we can do this, but, but I feel like there's something someone's not telling us because, like, if you don't grow up ranching, you can't be a rancher. And I kind of feel like we can. And, and then I met a couple guys who were like, me. No, no background whatsoever. And they were like, you're going to make mistakes, like 100%. But not having any background in agriculture, there's actually, there's a huge advantage to that because you have no, no bad habits to unlearn.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And, you know, there's no, like, my last name is Skogland. There's no, like, this is the Skogland way of ranching. Yeah. This is how we do it. We just say, like, what's best for the animal, the land and the business. We'll do that. Yeah. And so, so, yeah, so we, and I mean, we could have a four hour podcast about. I mean, I burned a truck to the ground, I broke my ankle, the bison got out, been stuck in the mud, rolled before. I mean, I could just go on and on.

[Steven Rinella]

All the things you screwed up, all the things.

[Matt Skogland]

Like, I remember early on laughing with, with one of my neighbors, I was like, after one of my, you know, epic, you know, screw ups, I was like, I'm like, I think you guys have a bet down at the bar of when the Skoglands are going to go bankrupt. I was like, and now I think there's a second bet of when. When's Matt gonna die.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And there was another time where a neighbor, I did something and I was telling my neighbor about it, and he looks at me dead serious and he goes, matt, I'm concerned that you lack agricultural caution. He goes, what's your wife's cell phone number? I think we need to have her number.

[Steven Rinella]

And that's good.

[Matt Skogland]

And I look back, those are cattle producers. The one was a cattle producer. The other one is he rebuilds cars and trucks and. But I look back those first couple years and I'm like, it's. I feel like it's a miracle I'm alive.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

But. But again, on the flip side, in this, this is talked a lot about. This is talked a lot about currently in ranching because a lot of ranches are being passed from, you know, the older generation to people our age.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And there's. There could be some tension where it's like, well, I'm going to mix things up and the parents or the in laws or whoever. Like, no, no, we've done it this way for 100 years. You're not changing it. So. So there's definitely some advantages to having no background in agriculture. But. But yeah, I was, I felt like. Yeah, I just felt like we were missing something that someone wasn't telling us. Something that that summer of 2018, we were getting started. But yeah, we've.

[Steven Rinella]

We've learned one thing you were probably missing was land.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. So that's. So, so, so, so we. So, yeah. So I came back from the holistic management workshop all fired up. You know, I write a business plan and Sarah's all in, but she's like, she's like, no offense to the rest of America. It's got to be within an hour of Bozeman because our communities here. And at that point we have. We have two kids. And at that point our. Our daughter had just turned one. Our son was like four and. And she was like, I'm just not starting over in Colorado or eastern Montana or wherever. Yeah. And so I looked for land and like, the dream died very quickly. But I'm a stubborn person because you couldn't find anything. Couldn't find anything. Oh, just so like it's impossible.

[Steven Rinella]

And it's just like so expensive.

[Matt Skogland]

So expensive.

[Steven Rinella]

I just came back from the state. I'm not even going to name the state and like, that's where you need to go.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. No. Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

It's like, I was like, I finally like, it's like awesome area. And then looking at land prices, I'm like, it hasn't gotten crazy.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. No. So we were lucky. This is so. This is like March of 2018, and I'm stubborn. So I just kept looking online and looking online and then I came across this ranch brokers website and there were these three parcels up in the Shield Valley, which was our. That was our Ideal area, because we love it up there. It's beautiful. And as you know, I mean, it's hardcore ranching country.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And, you know, so. So there's no threat. Not. Not a big threat of, like, subdivision, that sort of thing. And. But when I came across this website, the. The prices were so low, and the website was a little, you know, kind of low tech. I was like. I was like, this. This has got to be like. This got to be from, like, 2004. And the guy just never took it down. And. But. So I called him. The name is Don Vanaman. So I called him expecting to, like, you know, this number has been disconnected. And he was like, don Vanaman. And I was like, holy. And I was like, hey. I'm like, yeah. And I was like, don, I'm like. I'm like, these. I'm on your website, and there's these three parcels up in the Shield Valley. I'm like, are those for sale? And he's like, you betcha. I'm like, can I go look at him? He's like, whenever the hell you want. I was like, that Saturday, took the kids up, expecting to find, like, a toxic landfill in the middle.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. And we got there, and I was like, played out.

[Matt Skogland]

Gravel core. And I was like, holy. Like, this is spectacular. So we came back, and I was like, sarah, I'm like, we. Next weekend, we got to go look at this. And. And we, you know, we did our due diligence, so we kept looking online to see if something else made more sense. That was that. That the. Our land. It's the only land we looked at in person. Nothing ever. Nothing else even came close to make us go look at it. And by late May, we were like, you know, and this was pre Covid. Pre Kevin Costner Yellowstone TV show. But even then, we were like, the way Bozeman's going, if we don't get this under contract, all this work goes up on a shelf. And the way Bozeman's going, it's never coming off that shelf.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And so we got it under contract and got as long a closing date as possible, we're able to pull it together and get across the finish line. But if we didn't get that, like, if we had. If we'd waited a year, two years, there's. We would. Out of reach, wouldn't be sitting here like it was. It was. We found a needle in the haystack in 2018, and we're damn grateful for it.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. You know what I wanted to tell you about is Randall and I, month or two ago, we went down to Cody, Wyoming.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

And we gave a talk about. We gave. It was in. We were in coordination with the Buffalo Bill Cody Museum.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

And we went down the road, dude. Because they needed. We had needed a little bit of bigger space. Went down the road like a. There's a hotel, the big convention area. Just like a community thing.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

We gave a talk about our buffalo hidehunters audio work called the Hide Hunters.

[Matt Skogland]

Right.

[Steven Rinella]

There was some dude. Like, there's some dudes there that were real anxious through the whole thing. Like, they were there for the comment section.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

You know. You know, like.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

You know when you get. You ever address an audience? Oh, yeah, yeah. So you'll. Sometimes, if you, you know, you kind of like doing your talk or whatever, you become aware of certain figures, you know, 100 that are on fire.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

And it was like a guy that's. There's three of them that were there to. To. To challenge me as an outspoken advocate. As an outspoken buffalo advocate.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Right. Like, I just. I routinely bring up my conviction that we should be doing more and more places to welcome the animals back as wildlife. Okay. Like, I bring this up. He wanted to challenge that. What was surprising to me is they were producers.

[Matt Skogland]

Huh.

[Steven Rinella]

And I always felt that there was, like, producers.

[Matt Skogland]

Bison producers.

[Steven Rinella]

They were bison ranchers.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

And I always felt that, like, that bison ranchers were first and foremost, like, enthusiasts for the species.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

And they got into it for love of the animal. But. But they don't. He didn't. They don't like that talk.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Which I thought was so weird. And he kept saying if my animals got out and telling me all the damage, that, like, school children wouldn't be safe.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

If his animals got out, I'm like. And. And, you know, kind of. I. I engaged him for a while, then I said, I. I'm just gonna.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Like, we're gonna have to have other people ask questions.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

I engaged them for a minute on it, and it was sort of like, I'm like. But I'm like, I'm not aware of anybody suggesting that your animals be let go.

[Matt Skogland]

Right.

[Steven Rinella]

This. You're make. You're. You're setting up a strawman argument about your animals getting out and attacking school children on the road. Like, that's not what we're discussing. But was surprised by that perspective among the producer community, which I think is an exception rather than the rule.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

But one of the biggest things I'm bringing up this whole convoluted story to ask this question of, like, you have. Once you get land, you're not keeping them in with like three strand barbed wire.

[Matt Skogland]

Right, Right.

[Steven Rinella]

So. So you, like, when you got property, you. You have to be thinking about how to like really confine them.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

That's a. I mean, that's a thing. Yeah, that was, that was part of this guy's deal is if they're out. Right. How you're not going to stop them from going anywhere.

[Matt Skogland]

Totally.

[Steven Rinella]

You know, was kind of his argument. Right?

[Matt Skogland]

Yep. Yeah. No. So we, when, when we got the land under contract at the end of May, with the closing date in September, I went into what I called sponge mode. Just trying to absorb and learn as much as possible. And I got to visit different ranches. Got to visit one of Ted Turner's ranches. And they're this, this great rancher. He actually has bison and cattle.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Matt Skogland]

On different pastures up in Molt, Montana, north of Laurel. And he connected me with a fencing guy that he had trained on his fencing. And that's what we put on our place. And it's awesome. So our fencing people look at it and they're like, this keeps buffalo in. Like, are you like. Because it's, it just looks super weak. Okay. It's our perimeter fence. 5 wire high tinsel prong, all wildlife friendly. So pronghorn can go under. Deer, elk and moose can go over. And the middle wire is hot.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, I got.

[Matt Skogland]

And it's ultimately a psychological barrier. Like, they touch that.

[Steven Rinella]

Explain some of that terminology for people. Like, like, sure.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

So go under. Yeah, go over. Like, talk about that.

[Matt Skogland]

So, okay, so. So, you know, pronghorn, iconic species in the west that, you know, second second fastest animal on earth behind the cheetah. They live, you know, their defense mechanism is their speed. So they like to hang out in flat open country and see what's coming and they'll outrun it. And for whatever reason, they, they, they can jump fences. But like a lot of them don't know that.

[Steven Rinella]

You see it now and then.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep, very rare. And so they crawl under fences and there's a lot of work being done to remove the bottom wire on ranches because in, in big winters, they'll find dozens of pronghorn, dead pronghorn piled up in the corner of a, of a ranch or public ground, whatever, because the snow drifted there and they can't crawl under the fence and they don't know they can go over. So our fence. So High tinsel. It's just a smooth wire and it's got a, a, a flex to it. So deer, elk and moose can jump over, pronghorn can crawl under. I see mule deer do both. Like they sometimes crawl under and sometimes jump over.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, cuz they'll get little dugout areas and they'll keep using it and using it and it'll eventually get like a little trough under there.

[Matt Skogland]

Exactly, yep. And, and then when I say the middle wire is hot so it's, it means it's, it's electrified. So we, our whole fence runs off solar and that middle wire is hot and it, and, and when a, if a bison touches it they get shocked and they're super smart so they learn to avoid it. And then that behavior is passed on down through the herd so they all avoid the fence. But I say it's a psychological barrier because if, if they wanted to run through it, they could run through it. Like, like we put our arm through a, through a spider web, you know, it would take nothing. So I always say like if you, if you really want a buffalo proof fence you need like a 14 foot brick wall because any, even if it's barbed wire, woven wire, like they could bust through it. But the great thing you have going for you with bison is their herd instinct is so, is still so strong. You know, it's tens of thousands of years, hundreds of thousands of years of evolution have programmed into them safeties with the herd. They always want to be together. And so it ultimately comes down to your management. As long as they've got plenty of grass and water, they're not looking over the fence line and they want to be together. And, and it's funny because this time of year is when we have issues because the grass is starting to grow. They're excited about that. And the youngsters, like yearlings, they'll periodically get on the wrong side of the fence and I would think that they were like when I was 16, it's like woohoo. I'm, I'm going to raise hell and you know, go explore and it's the opposite. You can, you can feel their stress. They're, they're walking the fence like back in. How do I get back to the herd? Because I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm vulnerable by myself.

[Steven Rinella]

So.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, so, so again and that's like another example of like people were skeptical of our fencing and now they, they see the bison on the right side of the fence, they're grazing. They see me field harvesting them and they're like, yeah, we're, we're cool with this.

[Steven Rinella]

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[Steven Rinella]

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[Matt Skogland]

So you know, a bull, big, mature bull is, is well over £2,000. They're, they're, they're, they're massive and, and their heads. I had to, I, I had to, I had to, I had to field harvest a big bull last memor. Last year, Memorial Day weekend by myself. And it's, it. Their heads must weigh like 200 pounds. Like just. They're massive animals.

[Steven Rinella]

And no separate fencing for those?

[Matt Skogland]

No, we just, we, we run it as one herd year round. Yeah. Just, you know, because, and the thought process there is from a, from a land health standpoint, if you zoom out, you know, a thousand years ago, you know, we had tens of millions of buffalo, tens of millions of elk, pronghorn. So the entire west evolved with grazing animals. Removing animals from the landscape. Totally unnatural.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

Like the west evolved with animals, full stop. Can't argue that. But the way that they. The way that they grazed, like the Gallatin Valley, they, you know, thousands of animals would have come in here and they would have grazed, pooped, peed, wallowed, just. Just made a mess of the place and then. And then left for a long time. So the west evolved to the point

[Steven Rinella]

where mythologies, like native mythology group were formed.

[Matt Skogland]

Yes.

[Steven Rinella]

Around. Where do they go?

[Matt Skogland]

Where do they go?

[Steven Rinella]

In many cases, if you look at like. Like plains tribes.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

In many cases, you see there are literal interpretations of these, but then there's also these stories as parable. But it's that they went into a hole in the ground.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep. Yep. Right.

[Steven Rinella]

They went into a mountain.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

Because they would be so gone.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

You know, and then all of a sudden, they're back. Right.

[Matt Skogland]

And. Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

It would inspire, like, mythologies to explain. Like, where do they go?

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. No, I'm endlessly fascinated by that stuff. Like, your buddy Dan Flores been on here, has his own mediator podcast. Like, his book Wild New World was like. That just blew my mind.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

Like, just over and over and it's itching. I was just reading. I'm a little late to the game. I'm finally reading Braiding Sweetgrass. Amazing book. And she just. The chapter I just finished. Because the other thing with what you're talking about, it was like, where did they go? And it was like, how do we get them back? Like, what do we do? And I was just reading that some tribes in the Pacific Northwest had the same thing around salmon, where they would light, light, light the grass on fire on a cliff along the ocean, basically sending a signal out to the salmon. Time to come back.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh.

[Matt Skogland]

Which I thought was super cool. And I didn't know that.

[Steven Rinella]

Man, I got to tell you, this is such a old. This is like from way back in the earliest, earliest days of this show, of this podcast. It's probably one of my favorite segments we ever did is we were interviewing a makushi. He was from the Mikushi tribe in South America, in Guyana.

[Matt Skogland]

Huh.

[Steven Rinella]

And it was the second time I'd gone down there and hung out with them. The first time I went and spent time with the Mikushi. They hunted a lot of tape here. They had a white lipped tape here. So there's three. They're. Sorry, I'm not tape here. A peccary. So we have like a javelina is a collard peccary.

[Matt Skogland]

Okay.

[Steven Rinella]

There's a Chacoan peccary, and then there's a white lip peccary.

[Matt Skogland]

Huh?

[Steven Rinella]

Okay. The. The white lip peccary lives in is huge herds. So like, you know, like collard peccaries or javelin is, you know, you like a big group of those, a dozen, 20, whatever. White lip peccary would be hundreds.

[Matt Skogland]

Got it.

[Steven Rinella]

And they would periodically have white lipped peccary move through their village areas, and they would harvest a whole bunch of these white lip peccaries. They hadn't seen you in a long time. He was telling me, and he's telling me this on the podcast, he's explaining that there's another village that. That's very jealous of our village. And they trained a shaman, and that shaman has apparently locked our white lip peccaries into a mountain. We are training up a new shaman who's developing the skill set necessary to unlock them from the mountain to bring them back. And he's just like telling us all about this on the show. So cool to have it be that it was like that, you know, which you imagine to be an ancient wisdom.

[Matt Skogland]

Totally.

[Steven Rinella]

On a thing like a podcast.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Always just struck me as, yeah, yeah, Jimmy, I want to go, like, really find that bit and talk about it. But it was the same thing. I was like, where did they go?

[Matt Skogland]

Where did. Where do they go? How do we get them back? And yeah, and like the creation stories, I just find all that stuff, like, so interesting. Fascinating.

[Steven Rinella]

I got y' all messed up because you're talking about how you.

[Matt Skogland]

Gallatin Valley, that.

[Steven Rinella]

That grazing practice.

[Matt Skogland]

Exactly.

[Steven Rinella]

There and then not there.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. So they'd come in, make a mess the place, and then leave for a long time. So the west evolved with high intensity, short duration impact followed by a long recovery. So we have our rent. So we're trying to. They call it biomimicry, just mimicking nature. And that's what we're doing on a vastly smaller scale on our ranch. But we have it cross fenced into a whole bunch of different pastures. And then the herd just moves around. And so whatever pasture they're in, every other pasture is being rested.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Matt Skogland]

And this time of year, it's particularly important because we've got all sorts of nesting grassland birds, waterfowl, sandhill cranes. And what happens is you create this mosaic, which is what would have happened a thousand years ago, where you've got stuff they haven't hit yet. And by, you know, late June, that grass gets pretty tall. Stuff they grazed, you know, maybe a month ago, and that's like medium. And then stuff they just hammered. That's like a Walmart parking lot. And because the entire west evolved with this for birds, depending on whether they're, you know, nesting, raising chicks, feeding, like, they use all those different habitats differently. And so. So. Yeah, so. So. So that's what we do in our place. So we run it as one herd year round. So wherever the herd is, the rest of the ranch is being.

[Steven Rinella]

So the bulls always stay with them?

[Matt Skogland]

Yep. Yeah. And do they.

[Steven Rinella]

Are they, like. Even though in captivity, are they still following that like they're running in June and July, or do you want to have calves dropping year round?

[Matt Skogland]

When we. When we started, we had. We had some calves dropping in the fall, but now we. They've. They've. Now they. We've gotten to a point just naturally where. Yes. That our. Our herd acts the exact same as Yellowstone. So they. They. The rut. They breed from mid July through the end of August. Okay. And then they calve mid April through the end of May. They shed their winter coats in the spring, grow their winter coats back in the fall, and then the. And then, you know, so a bison herd, it's a matriarchal society, so you've got a lead cow that calls the shots, and there's a whole pecking order there, and the bulls fall in line, but once they're like, three, four, five, they leave the herd and kind of like, I'm my own man now. Okay. And. And so we saw that on our place where, you know, the herd would be here, and then, like, the breeding bulls would be like, 400 yards over here.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Matt Skogland]

And then you'll. I think you'll find this interesting. So when we started, we had breeding bulls, because that's how you do it. And the breeding. The breeding bulls are the ones that cause problems. Not from a safety standpoint. Like, they're. They're like. I mean, I've never had an issue with one of our bulls, but because they. They have this, you know, I'm my own man mentality. Everything's going great, and then one morning, you wake up and they're like, I'm. I'm walking to the crazy mountains today, and nothing's gonna stop me.

[Steven Rinella]

He's striking out, looking for just what,

[Matt Skogland]

you know, and it.

[Steven Rinella]

Whatever he can find.

[Matt Skogland]

And then for us, it becomes extremely stressful. The big thing for me, it's not like losing a bull or, like, the economic consequence of that. It's that we have great relationships with our neighbors, and we take that very seriously, and we've earned their trust. And so if bulls start Leaving and walking all over the neighbors, rightfully so, would be like, what's going on, Matt? Like, have you lost control of your animals? And so, and so while I was kind of struggling with this a year ago, I'm always reading, listening to podcasts, trying to stay on top of the best available science around modern day ranching. And I listened to a podcast with one of Ted Turner's ranch managers and he was saying the way on a couple of Turner's ranches, they've moved away from breeding bulls. And the, the theory is that with breeding bulls it's unnatural because it's humans selecting the animal for what humans like. And so bison, they're, they're sexually mature. They're sexually mature at two. Okay. So they got rid of all the breeding bulls and they leave. They let all the 2 year olds in there and just let nature work it out. And the theory is the biggest, strongest, highest sex drive bulls are the ones that are going to breed. And that's who you want to breed. So when we had. So when our last breeding bull.

[Steven Rinella]

How is that not. If he's a breeding bull, why is he not a breeding bull?

[Matt Skogland]

So, because. So before I guess I get to the, the age.

[Steven Rinella]

It's an age.

[Matt Skogland]

Exactly. The other system you'd have like a six year old bull in an eight year old bull, I see, which are literally more than twice the size of

[Steven Rinella]

that 2 year old and that's who's most likely to strike out.

[Matt Skogland]

Exactly. Got it. And so when I heard that, and then this had this bull that left last Memorial Day weekend, I was like, we're done with breeding bulls. And I just, I'm all about having our ranch and our herd be as natural as possible. And so that really appealed to me. And so last summer was our first experiment with it and it was so cool because in June you've got all these two year old bulls running around and it's like kind of whatever. And then by late July, there was one guy who I was like, oh, you're the man. Like he was fighting off other bulls. Like he clearly was the guy.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And then, and then we work our animals once a year in the winter where we move them into corral and you know, ear tag the calves and we preg. Check the females. So I was kind of curious to see what this experiment would do. And last year was our, our highest breed up rate ever. So of all of our cows that were supposed to be bred, only one wasn't. And, and so now this, you know, letting, letting A bunch of two year olds take care of it. Is our path going forward? Yeah. It's kind of cool, huh?

[Steven Rinella]

Did you find like, when you've had them break out and go, do they want to go a certain direction or is it random?

[Matt Skogland]

It's random. It is, it's totally random. And, and it, fortunately it, you know, it's only happened a handful of times. And I, I remember the, the, the, the, the first, the big one that we had three breeding bulls, they all left and I was like, freaking out and I called a mentor and he's like, look, he's like, I know you're freaking out and you want to go chase him. He's like, that's the worst thing you could do.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

He's like, there's just nothing you can do. And he's like, I'm convinced they have a homing instinct and like they're gonna come back. And this was on a Friday. Went out Friday night, couldn't find him or didn't see him. Saturday morning, not there. Saturday night, not there. Sunday morning, I'm like on the edge of like, you know, panic attack, not there. Sunday afternoon, there they are. Like they never left. And I was like, you sons of like. Yeah, and, but yeah, no, they have like a homing instinct where they, they come back.

[Steven Rinella]

Do you, do you get scared around those big bulls?

[Matt Skogland]

No, no.

[Steven Rinella]

You don't have, you don't do anything. Like, you just, you'd walk right up.

[Matt Skogland]

Well, I, I should say no with an asterisk, which is I, I, you know, I, I wouldn't, like, I would never walk up and try to scratch one by the year. Sure, it would kill me, but you'd

[Steven Rinella]

be out doing your work and.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, I mean, I kind of, I, I always, I, I've been charged a couple times by our lead cowboy. I mean, like, like, like, like she was coming. She was coming. Yeah. This was not a game where I had to dive over a fence, dive into the truck. So now I always make sure that the truck or side by side is relatively nearby. But you can, you can read their body language. And yeah, the big bulls non event never had an issue, like zero. It's the, it's the old cows that you got to watch out for.

[Steven Rinella]

That's who's coming.

[Matt Skogland]

100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The first one, just a funny story. It was our first summer and I was doing a pasture move and when I move them, I, I pull them. I don't push them. So like, I get their attention and they're so Smart. They know what I'm doing. So they. They follow me to the next pasture where there's a whole bunch of fresh grass waiting. But this day, there is this wetland, and I had to get on the other side of the wetland to move him across. And I did it on foot, and I had zero issues up to this point. And it's this beautiful spring day, the whole herds walking in front of me, and I'm like, you know, and every day that I'm out there, it's never lost on me that I'm a kid from Chicago. Yeah. I'm like, I will never get used to it. Like, hopefully I live to be, like, 90. When I'm 89, I'll wake up and be like, this is crazy. I can't believe I do this. Like, I just, you know, and so I'm like, walking, and, like, the mountains are covered in snow, and I'm like, man, I'm like, I'm the bison whisperer. Like, look at this. You know? And they're all. I'm just looking at all these butts. And then all of a sudden, it like, took a second to register. And this number 440 is coming, like, full tilt. I was like, holy shit. And I ran. I mean, I must have run like a 3, 9, 40 to the fence. I did this awkward, crazy superman dive over the fence, and she stopped and was like, pawn at the ground. And the first thing I did was look up and down the road to make sure no neighbor saw, because it

[Steven Rinella]

would be like, just hearing all about

[Matt Skogland]

that, more humiliation from that. But ever since that, I'm like, wow, that was a close call. But, yeah, it's really. The old cows, the only ones that you have to worry about.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So tell me how the, like the. The sale process.

[Matt Skogland]

Sure.

[Steven Rinella]

Like, what is a. What is a animal that, you know, how are you making your determination? Like, who's going to stay around as breeding stock or replacement heifers?

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

Right. Like, how many. How many calves you get out of a cow?

[Matt Skogland]

Sure.

[Steven Rinella]

How do you determine? Well, I'm going to sell this many, you know, I mean, like. Like, what's all that dynamic? Like, I guess herd dynamics or demograph graphics. What's that look like?

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. So. So. So we. So we. We. We exp. We had a significant expansion last summer, which is exciting. So our. You know, our. We're. We're. We're now trying to figure out what those numbers look like.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Matt Skogland]

But for the last several years, the easiest way to explain it is, like, June 1st to June 1st. So June 1st last year we had let's say 55 cows with a calf by their side.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Matt Skogland]

So 55 pairs, 55 yearlings and 552 year olds over the course of the year. I field harvest basically all of the two year olds keep a few replacement heifers because we know of a few, a few open cows. And then June 1st this year we should have 55 cows with a calf by their side. And then last year's calves become yearlings, the yearlings become two year olds. We just do it again.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Matt Skogland]

And then, and so basically, and then when we, when we work the animals in the winter, any open non bred cow immediately becomes a meat animal. Okay. And for, for two reasons or for three reasons. One, we're not Ted Turner. We don't have 110000 acre ranch. Two, we're working to build just a super healthy, self sufficient herd where they thrive on our landscape. The cows have a calf in April, May, they're bred back in July and August and they just do it year after year. And if any year they don't get bred, they're out of here.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Matt Skogland]

And I mean you got to have

[Steven Rinella]

something to sell to support the whole thing.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. And then the third one is our demand. Like we have, we are. Demand exceeds supply.

[Steven Rinella]

So does.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

So we, so we, you have to turn away business.

[Matt Skogland]

Not necessarily not turn away business. We just, we always have a long wait list.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

And,

[Matt Skogland]

and I do very little traditional sales and marketing because we've just, we've got these amazing customers. We've got this amazing customer base that's very loyal. I mean at the end of the day I always say it's like we could have, you know, the prettiest bison, the most beautiful mountains, cute kids, great storytelling. But if the meat tastes like shit, no one's, no one's going to buy from us. Right. Like you buy a quarter Bison, 85 pounds of bison meat and you eat your way through it. At the end of that when you reorder like to me that's a great sign that they're like. That was worth him to do it again.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And so, so basically our meat animals are essentially all of our two year olds. And then open cows and, and that, that, that, that, that's it. Yeah, got it.

[Steven Rinella]

How many, how many calves will the cow. Is a cow good for or you haven't hit, you haven't hit it yet?

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, no we haven't.

[Steven Rinella]

You haven't hit the max yet.

[Matt Skogland]

Right. But I mean when we, so when we started it. So our bison arrived January 2019. We bought all of them from these two awesome ranches just west of Shoto along the Rocky Mountain front. And you know, and so some of those cows are now like 15, 16 years old, still having a calf every spring, bred back July and August. And it's unbelievable.

[Steven Rinella]

What about twins?

[Matt Skogland]

We've had a few case. We've had a few sets of twins. It's rare. You thrive in our case. Yes. I've always been nervous because you hear these stories the way mom picks one and I've watched with a close eye and to my knowledge, all of our twins have made it like the way, like when the, when, when they first start calving. Like right now, like I was out there last night and we've got, you know, there were a couple calves born yesterday. It's very obvious to tell whose calf is with which mom. Like the moms are amazing. Like those calves are like under their chin.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

But through the summer, once you've got, you know, 50, 60 calves running around and they're feeling a little bolder and they're running, you can't keep track of who's who.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

But to my knowledge, like I watch those twins very closely early on and then at some point just never noticed and never found a dead calf.

[Steven Rinella]

So do you, do you let them self wean?

[Matt Skogland]

Oh yeah, yeah. So that's a great.

[Steven Rinella]

You never have to, you never have to pull them off.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, it's like so, like because you're

[Steven Rinella]

only selling two year olds.

[Matt Skogland]

Well, the main thing is we're just, we're not, we run it as one herd year round. And so there's lots of things we do that are like not traditional. But I look at it, I'm like weaning, weaning, stressful. The science is clear that the longer that calf, whether it's an elk calf, a Black Angus or a pronghorn, like the longer that that calf or a fawn and a pronghorn, the longer that animals on mom, the healthier that animal is going to be for the rest of its life.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And so I was like. And then weaning is stressful. It's time intensive, labor intensive for you. Yeah. And so I was like, why would we wean? So we don't wean at all. We just, we let mom take care of that and we're not selling live animals. We run it as one herd. So yeah, so we don't, we don't wean at all. We just let mom do it.

[Steven Rinella]

When, when you go out to field harvest one, do you know who? Like, because you got numbers and you're watching the whole thing

[Matt Skogland]

occasionally, but. But very rare. So typically it's like if I'm driving out there in August, like in August, I know I'm gonna field harvest a two year old bull. And it's the first two year old bull that provides me with the perfect shot.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, really?

[Matt Skogland]

And the perfect shot is

[Steven Rinella]

because you don't know who's. Like, you don't, like, you're not genetically testing them. You don't know what bull is doing. What?

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, yeah, no, just totally. So I just drive out and. And so the perfect shot is a bull that's like standing kind of on an angle, like broadside, looking at me 10 to 15 yards away, head up, and then I aim an inch above the eyes. And it's just, I mean, when I pull the trigger, it's lights out. Like people always say, they're like, oh man, you know, I love your ranch because, you know, the bison only have one bad day and I'm like, oh, no, no. I'm like, no, bad day. I'm like, they're literally standing there, like yesterday, this bull, he's standing there, grass in his mouth, next to his buddy, looking at me, they know me, they know the truck just kind of like, you know, chewing his, chewing his grass. And then it's just instant outer space. And so, yeah, so, but. And then if I have a group of two year old bulls, I'll look them over and see like, who's the most developed.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And pick him out. But it's funny, I mean, I've had multiple times where, let's just say, you know, number 426, I'm like about to shoot him and then he moves and then 322 walks in. I'm like, oh, I guess I'll take you. And then boom. And then I'll be out a couple of days later and 426 will walk by. I was like, man, you have no idea. Like you came that close.

[Steven Rinella]

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[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, so my process is. So if I'm just doing one drive out, boom, drop it.

[Steven Rinella]

And.

[Matt Skogland]

Well, I said back up. So part of our thing is connecting people to where their food comes from and, and demystifying the death process involved in food production and consumption. Because most places, you know, the death part, it's locked in the basement, padlocked, poured over with concrete. And in our case, I always, I talk about how like, in our case, the death is beautiful. You know, it's like death is essential to life and we're all killing whether it's for what we eat, what we drive, what we wear, the phones in our pockets, like we're all killing stuff. It's just whether you're aware of it or not. And in our, in our case, that bison, like yesterday, conceived on the ranch, born on the ranch, lived his whole life on the ranch, standing there with his buddy, grass in his mouth, lights out. I mean, it's as Good as it gets. And I lost my train of thought. What was.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, what was I asking about?

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, you were asking about.

[Steven Rinella]

You gotten him yourself.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, yeah. Myself. Yeah. So bison drive.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh.

[Matt Skogland]

So part of it's connecting people to where their food comes from. So when I drive out yesterday, I take a picture of the herd and then, boom, drop the bison. And then I take a picture of a dead bison on the ground. Never anything bloody or gory. I make very. Like I. You know, but. But very clear, like that's a dead bison. And then I lift it up with the. The bail bed, which is a flat bed on the back of a pickup that has two arms that can go out. It's. It's built for feeding round bales.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

But it's. And then I take two six foot toe straps and put one around the front legs, one around the hind legs. I lift it up and slit its throat to bleed it. And then I dry and then drive it to a different pasture. Cut the head off and save the tongue in the cheeks. And then I gut.

[Steven Rinella]

You gave me some of those cheeks one time too. Yeah. Yeah. Or you gave me a tongue the other day.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

You know what I did with that? That one I just boiled down.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

I put it in a slow cooker.

[Matt Skogland]

Okay.

[Steven Rinella]

So I could slip the skin on it. Sometimes I'll smoke or whatever, but I just did that. So I can slip the skin and then cut it and fried it like. Like Spam.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, my God. It's good, man. I was crisping it on both, so it's crispy but soft in the middle.

[Matt Skogland]

I'm embarrassed. I've never cooked it. The only tongue of ours that I've had. You. I gave you a few extra tongues. And as. And as a just. Just kindness of your heart, you. You cooked a couple for us and you smoked them and cured them.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep.

[Matt Skogland]

And. And you were like, just slice it thin in a oil with some pan. And our kids, like, they've grown up eating heart. Like when I, like, our dog had an injury a couple years ago and I was cooking him some bison heart to like boost morale. And my kids were like. Came in the kitchen, they're like, are you cooking bison heart? And they just start grabbing at it. I'm like, you like, that's for Ed. So they're like very adventurous eaters. But I was like, tongue. Maybe that'll weird them out. And so I said, hey, guys, we're having bison steak. And I sliced it and I'll never. One of them said, they took like, two bites and they go, dad, this is meat candy. And then the other one said, can we eat this every night? It was like. Anyways, so yeah, save the tongue in the cheeks. And then I gut it and I save heart, liver, kidneys, hanging tender, get it back on the truck, drive to Amsterdam. They skin it and they cut the tail off. So the. It's the tongue, cheeks, heart, liver, kidneys, hanging tender.

[Steven Rinella]

And you hand that over.

[Matt Skogland]

Hand that over. That goes on like an organ tree.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep.

[Matt Skogland]

And then they. And then they. They skin it dry, age it, cut it, wrap it, etc, and they.

[Steven Rinella]

And then the hide goes to you. You sell behind.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. So we have a guy that we work with in between Three Forks in Butte. And he's like, He's a Hyde guy. Like, he builds boats, teepees, lodges, all sorts of things. And so he'll. He'll either meet me at Amsterdam and buy the hide, like fresh when it's skinned, or I'll throw it in a bag, put it in the freezer, and he'll pick it up later. And then occasionally we get a tanned one back and we'll sell that as a blanket. But they're kind of far and few between. Then we get back.

[Steven Rinella]

Got it.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

You know, I don't know if you ever heard this, but at. At the Folsom kill site.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

The ice age.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

You know it's a ice age buffalo kill site.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

In that bone bed, there's no. I always thought it was interesting in that bone bed there are no tailbones.

[Matt Skogland]

Huh. Because they did. Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Haul them away with the hides.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, no, that. The tails, you know, it's. It's like a shank. You got to slow cook it in liquid for a long time. But it's the flavors, like, insane.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. And it's a good handle for dragging the hide around.

[Matt Skogland]

Exactly.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. So they do that. They cut the thing off, the hide goes to get tanned.

[Matt Skogland]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

And then. And then you have. But then you have dudes that have ordered the stuff.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. So. Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Who ships that out? You got. You ship it out.

[Matt Skogland]

We do it. Yeah. So. So, so, so we sell by the quarter, half whole Buffalo. We sell 100% direct to consumer. I'd say half our customers are in Montana, half all over the country. So yesterday. So we have one employee, Ethan Davidson, Amazing person, huge meat eater fan. He works two days a week for us, and he's in charge of, like, the whole fulfillment process. Okay. So the way it works is somebody goes on our website, they put a deposit down For a quarter or a half or a hole. And then, oh yeah, to go full circle when it's at Amsterdam skinned and they cut it down the backbone. I take a picture of that. And then the day after the field harvest, I'll send those pictures to our customers and say, you know, hey, Steve, I field harvested your bison yesterday morning on the ranch. Beautiful spring morning, blah, blah, blah, few photos attached. And then there's the herd on the ground. And so it's just like they, you know, sometimes people don't reply, but most people love it.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, they can see it come.

[Matt Skogland]

They can see it. It's like connecting them, you know, it's like this is the animal you'll be eating. And you know, we're just all about transparency and connecting people to the process. And so. So yeah, they skin it dry, age it. Amsterdam's amazing. Just great butchers. And then they ultimately, you know, it's beautifully packaged, wrapped, frozen, labeled, boxed. Ethan goes and picks it up and if it's local person, he delivers it. And then for people around the country, we ship on Monday for Wednesday arrival. And he takes care of all of it and he does a really great job with it. Yeah, so it's. Yeah. So like yesterday he shipped. Where did he ship yesterday? Oh, got shipped one to San Francisco and then one to Minneapolis.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Matt Skogland]

So yeah, we've got it. And that was a whole, I mean, yeah, a whole nother learning curve was like learning how to, you know, boxes, insulation.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

Dry ice, ups. And you'll, you know, you have three kids, you'll appreciate, you know, I mean, one as a first generation rancher, like the only way this works is keeping our cost down. So people often think we're much bigger than we are. Like, it's like I do almost everything and then Ethan helps out and then we work with Amsterdam. So early on we shipped, I shipped, we didn't have any employees. I shipped everything out of our house. And I'd like, I'd go get the meat and dry ice from Safeway in the boxes and get everything ready. And I remember this one time and we charge like on a quarter. We charge by the amount of meat you get back.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Matt Skogland]

And so I was like packaging the meat and I turn, grab something and then I turn around and my daughter is sitting in the box. I'm like, I joked way I wasn't concerned about shipping Greta to like, you know, Chicago, but my concern was like the next morning having coffee and being like, what's that under the couch? And there's like four Rib eyes that she stashed. And so we were like, we need office space. But anyway, so we just, we've, we've learned and now we've got it, you know, dialed with great boxes, insulation made out of recycled paper, dry ice, and, and then the only thing is like, in the heart of winter, if we've got a blizzard coming, we'll just, we won't ship. We just, we won't run the risk

[Steven Rinella]

of having, having something spoil.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

So how, like, how confident are you now that you've got it? Like, do you know, I mean, do you still worry that the whole thing's going to collapse? Or do you feel like you got it, you got like figured out where you're comfortable or, or is, or is, or is, is anxiety high?

[Matt Skogland]

That's a great question. It's, I'd say a lot of both. Okay. Like when we started it, I mean, I, I vividly remember that first year. I, I, I, I would literally be like, I'd get an email, I'd be like, hey, Sarah, we got an email. Like, like, literally.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

Or I get a voicemail. Like, man, that's pretty cool. Somebody called me. Now just keeping up with the emails and voicemails is almost impossible. So we're in a different place. But I still, like, we are not dancing in the end zone. Like, you're still, you got to, you know, both from a, like, I guess to answer your question, it's like there's two parts, right? There's the customer, business, sales side, and I'll never relax on that. Like, you know, you just, I mean, what, you know, businesses fail. Like, you, you lose your customer. So I'm just like, we, I preach it all the time. Like, we just, we really strive for excellence. Like from the moment someone places an order to when that meat shows up on their doorstep. Like, we just, we really provide like an amazing customer experience all the way through. And then we try to provide them with the best red meat they'll ever taste. So I feel good about it. Like, we've got, we've amazing momentum, great customers, more people finding us, but I never take that for granted. And then on the ranching side, we've, I've made plenty of mistakes, learned a lot from it. And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's way more dialed, but you're still dealing with bison. So there's, you know, there's still some low grade anxiety, particularly this time of year. Just like they get grass crazy where they're like green Grass. Green grass. Where do I find green grass? And. But I'd say from where I was eight years ago, it's, you know, more like a two out of ten.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

Where, like, you know, early on, it was. It was. I was nervous.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. That anxiety takes a long. It takes a long time to dissipate, even when the risk goes away.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Like, I remember when. When I was trying to. What I was like, set my mind to being a writer, you know?

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Intense, crippling. Intense anxiety about how to make it work.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

And then it works.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

But you still sleep with one eye open.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, man. No, I know. Oh. I.

[Steven Rinella]

Like, for years, you sleep with one eye open, you're so. Like.

[Matt Skogland]

No.

[Steven Rinella]

It grips you, man.

[Matt Skogland]

100. I mean, early on, like, am I gonna fail? Oh, big time. And that was. Yeah, that was like, that summer of 2018. What really did it? Because, again, people thought we were totally nuts, but it was like, we could see it, and I'd put so much work into it, and it was just one of those things where I was like, if we don't, like, we might. We might horrifically crash and burn.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

But we got it. We got to try it, because if we don't, I'll regret it forever. And I. And what really did it for me is I was like, I'd. Like. I'd rather go for it and fail than never have tried.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And that's what got us over the hump to jump off the cliff. But, yeah, man, that. That anxiety, I. I've. I've had it so bad where, like, it was a few. It was four years ago, and when it was that, when those bulls took off, one of the other. When they came back, one of them, he. He got a taste for the North Bridgers, and he just started going. And there was. There was a time where he. He took off for eight days. Nobody saw him. I didn't get a single photo.

[Steven Rinella]

Not even the neighbors.

[Matt Skogland]

I know. And I laughed. Like, at one point, I was like, you can only have an acute stress response for so long. So, like. Like, by day five, I was like, I don't know how this is gonna end. Like, somebody's gonna call me from White Sulfur or, like, Manhattan, Montana. But, like, at this point, I have no idea. And then eight days later, he came back. But I. But, like, when that was going on, I remember saying to Sarah, I'm like, I think I'm. I think. I think I'm losing control of this whole thing. I think this whole thing's about to blow up. Because I was. I was just convinced that, like, he's going. He's going to teach others to start going, yeah, yeah, the neighbor. We're going to lose the neighbors rightfully. So they're going to be like, what that. You know, this is. You can't do this. So, yeah, that anxiety. And I think you just, you know, it's like a muscle. You train it and get used to it, and it just kind of. The volume turns down and. And then each time you go through an event like that and come out the other side of it, you're like, okay, like, that worked out okay.

[Steven Rinella]

But do you ever. When. When that's happened to you, do you call your neighbors?

[Matt Skogland]

Yes, it depends if it's like a. If it's quick and I think he's going to come back. I don't. But on that one, that one, I let the neighbors know. And our neighbors are. They're just great. Like, they. They just. The thing. One of the many things I love about ranchers, they have, like, some of the best senses of humor. Like, I just think you have to, because you're dealing with animals and weather and all this, that's outside of your control. And if you don't find humor in it, you'll just go. You'll go nuts. And I remember this. This one neighbor, my one neighbor, Rick, who's a great rancher, great guy. This, like, mud season out there, as you know, it's just. It's real. And it, like, the mud. The mud is the hardest part of the job. Like, it's demoralizing. It just beat you up. You get stuck. And this one day, I was just in, like, I was struggling with the mud. I was just pissed off. And Rick drove by, rolls his window down, deadpan, looks at me and, like, find any mud into my. It turned my whole day around. I laugh my ass off. And so. And so no our neighbors. And so that one bull. It was a neighbor that texted me and said, your bull's back.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, really?

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. And I was like, I'm like, I'm on it. And so.

[Steven Rinella]

So do you have any. Like, if that happens, do you just. Do you have to just go shoot him or can you get him back in?

[Matt Skogland]

So early on. So those ones fortunately came back. And then that guy. That guy, he became like a legend. Like, at Amsterdam, they. They. I would. You know, they knew my. I. I told them my sob story many times, and they're. They're the best. Like, so normally, you know, I have. I have dates and Times on the calendar. So, like, yesterday it's like, all right, Monday, April 20th. Matt's bringing us two bison at 2:00'.

[Steven Rinella]

Clock.

[Matt Skogland]

And they're very rich. They're. They're. They're fairly rigid about that. I mean, they work with us. Like, they give us a lot of flexibility, but you can't just call them on a Tuesday morning and be like, yeah, I'm bringing one in. They have their schedule, and with that one, they said, matt, whenever you can kill him, you kill him and you just bring him here. Seven o' clock at night, doesn't matter. We'll take care of you.

[Steven Rinella]

We'll get it figured out.

[Matt Skogland]

And, And I remember we were all. The whole herd was on one side of the dirt road, and one night we're eating dinner, and I look out the window and there's this one buffalo walking on the other side of the road. And I was like, son of a. I was like, otto, get in the truck. And we drove over and we just watched him. And he just. He literally, like, walked to the ranch and took off for three more days. And then. And then last year, Memorial Day, that bull took off and he was in when I got there. He was in with a neighbor's cows.

[Steven Rinella]

Got it.

[Matt Skogland]

And the neighbor was not happy. And nor. Nor would I have been if I was in his shoes.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

And that, that talk about anxiety out that my. There was two. Two neighboring ranchers looking at me on a Sunday morning, and they were like, what are you going to do? And my, like, my stress, I was. I could barely think, and I was like, I'm going to kill it. Stay, I'll be back. And I sprinted home, grabbed my rifle, sprinted back, hopped in my neighbor, side by side, and we drove out. And fortunately, he walked right towards us, dropped him. And then everything shifted. Like, next thing you know, they're taking pictures, smiling, laughing, and I felt like,

[Steven Rinella]

you got the problem taken care of.

[Matt Skogland]

Problem taken care of. And I feel like that bought, you know, again, just more kind of street cred in the community of, like, one of Matt's bulls got out, but he was here in six minutes and that thing was on the ground.

[Steven Rinella]

So on the flip side, have you ever looked out your window and saw that there's a domestic cow?

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, same thing, I'll text them. And our neighbors are like, so apologize. Oh, yeah, we'll come get it.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

So. And yeah, I've. And yeah, so it's, it's, it's. It's, you know, it Took a little while to get there, but we're in a good, good spot, you know, with the neighbors. Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Good, man.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Well, I appreciate you coming on and talk about it all.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, man, this is awesome.

[Steven Rinella]

So. But if dudes want to order some from you, like, there's a line.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, it's. It's not. Yeah, we. So I field harvest year round. Like, I mean, right now it's, you know, every Monday or every other Monday. So I always, you know, I just get, I'm sensitive to, like, if someone placed an order today and, you know, I wasn't field harvesting regularly and they didn't get their meat for three months, they'd be like, dude, what's the deal?

[Steven Rinella]

But whenever does yours. Do you. Does your site tell people when to expect it?

[Matt Skogland]

No, but when they place an order, I get the deposit, I see the email come through, and I email them the next day. And I say, based on our wait list and my field harvest schedule, I expect to field harvest your bison this week. And that way they're like, oh, okay, good. I've heard from. That he's going to field harvest it in three weeks. So the waitlist is never, you know, like, if someone placed order today, I would definitely be able to field harvest in the next month.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay, so I'm by wait list mean it's not like, like you're shipping 24 hours later or something like that.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, no, it's, it's. It' they place an order and then they wait a few weeks for me to kill it and then a couple of weeks for it to be dry, aged and cut and wrapped and then they get it. So, yeah, you just basically sue. We try super simple. We ultimately consider ourselves an e commerce company. You come to our website, northbridger bison.com and our options are there. Place your deposit, I email you. And what. And I guess lastly, what's been super cool again, because we try to really provide that customer experience is I have multiple customers who I would consider good friends at this point. Never met them in person, but, like, they email me articles, I email them stuff. They send me cooking photos. So it's been, it's been. It's been fun getting to know our customers.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

If you want to see. If you guys want to see Matt's place, go. What? I can't remember what the name of that video was. Oh, Phil. What. What'd you find out about hanger Steaks?

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, I was gonna hop in here really quick. It helps. It facilitates the contraction of the diaphragm during breathing and other throat stuff. Okay, Good to know.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, he'd be fine. He'd be fine without it. He'd just be breathing. He'd have a labored breathing.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Hit me with it again. Facilitates the breath.

[Matt Skogland]

It's a part of the. It's depending on the animal, but it. That. That. It's called the. The legs of the diaphragm or the crura, I guess, is the Latin. The Latin term. But it's. It has to do with, like, the spinal cord and the. The diaphragm and some esophagus function. H. Huh?

[Steven Rinella]

They go straight from. Phil.

[Matt Skogland]

All right.

[Steven Rinella]

Why did I even want. Why did I bring that up?

[Matt Skogland]

I have no idea.

[Steven Rinella]

We just knew that we had to cover off on it.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah, yeah, we. Because we didn't. Neither one of us knew what the hanging tender actually did.

[Steven Rinella]

And then the other thing. Phil, can you find out the name. Do you mind looking up the name of that video we filmed at Matt's when we cut the. When we cut the bison up with the stone tools? The Clovis.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah. It's called butchering a bison with Clovis points and tools.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. And that. That was filmed. That's kind of when we mainly. We knew each other, but that's kind

[Matt Skogland]

of when we mainly connected.

[Steven Rinella]

Connected and met.

[Matt Skogland]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

So if you go watch. Go to YouTube and watch that video, type in, like, meat eater, bison, Clovis points or something, you'll find it. And that's kind of a little bit of a glimpse at your place.

[Matt Skogland]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

And that was a cool day.

[Matt Skogland]

That was. That was such an awesome day when

[Steven Rinella]

I was eating my. Some parts that. Some of the steaks and stuff we had on that now, we had a lot of ground, too, but I remember a couple times I hit little stone flakes.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, did you?

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, cool.

[Steven Rinella]

Just a little bit. Little stone flake.

[Matt Skogland]

That's awesome. That's awesome.

[Steven Rinella]

Part of the experience.

[Matt Skogland]

I love it. Oh, that's great.

[Steven Rinella]

That's great. All right, man. Thanks for coming on.

[Matt Skogland]

Oh, Steve, good luck.

[Steven Rinella]

And good luck. Keep doing your business, man. It's been cool to. It's been fun to know you and. And eat some of your stuff and. And go out there and see it all.

[Matt Skogland]

No, I appreciate it. I so appreciate what you all do here at Mediator, and I love partnering with you guys, so it's been a lot of fun for me too.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, I like that, like, you got, like, that good American elbow grease, man. Let's just in there doing it, you know, absolutely figuring stuff out. So I appreciate it. Thank you.

[Matt Skogland]

Thanks for coming out. Cool.

[Steven Rinella]

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