Ep. 879: Arizona Jaguars, CWD Elk, and a New One-Buck Limit for Michigan Hunters

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast – Ep. 879: Arizona Jaguars, CWD Elk, and a New One-Buck Limit for Michigan Hunters – May 21, 2026

Overview

In this episode of The MeatEater Podcast, host Steven Rinella and crew deliver a fast-paced "news show" format, tackling recent and sometimes controversial topics in outdoor news. The group cycles through updates on Arizona's wandering jaguars, the controversial eradication policy for elk east of the Missouri in South Dakota, CWD (Chronic Wasting Disease) discovered in the National Elk Refuge, and Michigan transforming into a "one buck" deer hunting state. Laced throughout: tangents, anecdotes, and lively debates driven by irreverent humor and candid opinions, all infused with a deep understanding of wildlife and game management.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Rompola Buck Mystery: A Call for Listener Help

• [01:37–04:46]
  Steven and the team announce an in-depth series in progress regarding the legendary Rompola buck and put out a call for listener information on two topics:
  • Anyone who knows about a Texas man who, in the late 1990s, backed out of negotiations to purchase the Rompola buck.
  • Anyone affiliated with the Arkansas County Seed Company in the late 1990s/early 2000s.
• Quote:

  "If you know about a Texas man who in the late 1990s was negotiating the purchase of the Rompola Buck and backed out of that purchase, can you send us a note?" – Steven Rinella [02:40]

• Listeners asked to email: [e-mail] with "ROMPOLA" in the subject.

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2. Tangent Tales: Mice, Vultures, and Chicken Drama

• [05:53–14:25]
  A lighthearted (and quite lengthy) detour into Steven’s family adopting an orphaned mouse, complete with gross-out moments, skepticism about the mouse’s survival, and a running debate about whether the mouse or Randall’s chicken-vulture problem makes better podcast content.
• Includes banter about permits for dealing with depredation (vultures killing chickens) and managing backyard livestock, with comedic undertones highlighting the everyday overlap between wildlife and rural living.

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3. 12 and 26: Hunt Stories and Meat Preparation

• [16:14–21:53]
  Giannis discusses his Manitoba caribou hunt, where he and Simone “did the thing that you often don’t like” (bringing both bow and rifle, using the rifle first), and experienced a filming first: making tripe stew from caribou stomach.
• Quote:

  "Yang was making me some of that and he called it poop soup. I’m like, you gotta rebrand. Poop soup, dude." – Steven Rinella [20:05]

• Watchers encouraged to submit questions for an upcoming Q&A companion podcast.

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4. Major News Segment – Corner Crossing Legal Battles

Explanation and Legal Update

• [24:37–51:26]
  Ryan Callahan breaks down the latest on the divisive issue of "corner crossing"—moving from one public parcel to another where their corners touch but can't be legally accessed through adjacent private land.
  • Wyoming’s major legal victory confirmed by U.S. Supreme Court declining the case, solidifying rights in the 10th Circuit.
  • Montana’s situation is now under legal challenge after state Fish, Wildlife & Parks issued stricter language, despite no foundational law change.
• Notable Insight:
  • State agencies enforce, not make, these rules; the complexity arises from the intersection of state and federal law, “civil and criminal” trespass distinctions, and “gray areas” exploited by hunters and opponents alike.
• Quote:

  “If you or your friends... are somehow taking a more casual attitude to trespassing because of your understanding that corner crossing is legal... you’re not only hurting yourself, you’re hurting hunters in general. And... you’re also hurting this process.” – Steven Rinella [42:14]

• Listener Resource:
  Backcountry Hunters & Anglers created a website for reporting “problem corners” (locations that are ambiguously marked, making legal crossing risky).
  • Ongoing debate about surveying and clearly marking all corners, and whether agencies/landowners would allow it.
• Roman Law Joke:

  "...to whom so ever the soil belongs, he owns also the sky and to the depths, from the heavens to the hell." – Quoted from a Montana government document [50:11]

  • Ribbed by the group for its irrelevance to modern U.S. property law.

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5. Arizona Jaguars: The Return of “Cinco”

• [53:15–62:49]
  The panel delves into the news of a newly documented jaguar, “Cinco,” in Arizona—the fifth distinct jaguar recorded there in 20 years.
  • Focus on its use of historical travel corridors and water sources previously frequented by other jaguars, raising hope for site fidelity and maybe eventual pairing of male and female jaguars in the U.S.
  • Debate over collaring jaguars due to past sedative mishaps (“Macho B incident”) vs. the need for tracking due to poaching risk.
  • Steven’s strong stance that physical border walls are disastrous for wildlife connectivity—especially for dispersing carnivores like jaguars.
• Quote:

  “Our brand promise is we focus on wildlife and outdoor stuff and hunting and fishing... The one way we can guarantee to never have jaguars back is you build an impenetrable barrier between us and Mexico.” – Steven Rinella [60:01]

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6. Big Game Fishing Disruption: Omni-Sonar Tech

• [64:06–75:37]
  Seth reports on a study showing 60–84% higher catch rates for billfish by boats using omnidirectional sonar (in tournament settings), spotlighting rapid tech escalation in sportfishing.
  • High cost ($100K+ unit cost + $25K–$30K for installation) means it’s currently the domain of tournament pros, not everyday rec anglers.
  • Debated whether it’s a “hook-inventing” moment or a line that undermines “integrity”/fair-chase.
• Quote:

  “…if you don’t have sonar, your catch is capped at three billfish. If you have it, it seems you have the potential to catch nine.” – Steven Rinella [70:40]

  • Lively speculation on the future: “Eventually it'll be—‘oh, that mark's not big enough. We need to go find a bigger one.’” – Brody Leven [74:50]

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7. New South Dakota Elk Policy: “Eradicate” the East River Herds

• [77:28–93:06]
  Phil details South Dakota's creation of an unlimited elk tag in “East River” counties, aiming to eradicate remnant and expanding herds east of the Missouri to prevent ag conflicts. Hunters and public overwhelmingly disapprove (73% against in an informal poll).
  • Cited reasons: ag crop loss, fence damage; state managers state explicitly: “The fact is, we just can’t tolerate having them in eastern South Dakota.” – SD GFP representative [84:40]
  • Panel blast the move for being ecologically regressive and caving to powerful local landowners, noting all wildlife creates “problems” for someone; total removal sets a destructive precedent.
• Quote:

  “It's native wildlife. It's like God put them there.” – Steven Rinella [86:06]

  • Comparison to Texas, where elk were legally declared “non-native” despite historic presence.

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8. CWD Hits Wyoming’s National Elk Refuge

• [94:12–104:22]
  Brody discusses the first confirmed chronic wasting disease (CWD) case in an elk on the National Elk Refuge near Jackson, Wyoming, plus cases on multiple state-operated feedgrounds.
  • Feeding grounds concentrate animals, increasing disease transmission risk (“nose to nose” feeding, prion accumulation in soil), but state won’t close the feedgrounds due to social and management pressures (tourism, tradition, controlling winterkill).
  • Group debates whether continuing to test/survey is sufficient or just “taking the temperature” with no real solution.
• Quote:

  “It’s like, ‘my kid’s dying of a fever’—oh no, I’m going to keep taking his temperature.” – Steven Rinella [100:51]

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9. Public Land Transfer Controversy: Louisiana’s Kisatchie National Forest

• [106:04–113:24]
  Randall flags a draft bill from Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA) proposing to transfer ~140,000 acres (about 24%) of the Kisatchie National Forest to Grant Parish (county), ostensibly for “economic development.” The bill is opposed even by local officials, indicating broad unpopularity. He warns the move, although early, is a real tactic and part of ongoing threats to national forest lands nationwide.

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10. Michigan's New One-Buck Limit & End of the Shotgun Zone

• [113:27–126:33]
  The episode closes with a deep dive into two major changes in Michigan deer hunting regulations:
  • Rifles now legal statewide (ending the longstanding “shotgun zone” in the southern Lower Peninsula).
    • Historical arguments: denser human population, safety, reducing deer efficacy.
    • The hosts note, “Bob Dylan said, you don't need a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows,” questioning if data alone is necessary to support the common sense behind such rules [116:31].
  • One buck limit begins in 2027 (currently two).
    • A move sought by “quality deer management” hunters; the primary DNR goal is to increase antlerless (doe) harvest, as declining hunter numbers threaten the effectiveness of management through recreation.
    • Skepticism on efficacy: “If they don't start killing does... hunting as a management tool might become archaic and something else will take its place.” – Brent Rudolph, MI biologist [124:29]
    • Earn-a-buck rules (“shoot a doe before a buck”) historically unpopular in Midwest states.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On fair-chase in fishing:

  “If we were alive a long time ago and someone invented a hook, would we be like, ‘what’s the world coming to?’” – Steven Rinella [66:46]

• On legal complexity and precedent:

  “If the Supreme Court had taken it … and declared it's legal, that would have … made it across the West, where applicable, it's legal.” – Steven Rinella [30:38]

• On wildlife “problems”:

  “All wildlife is a pain in the ass from someone's perspective.” – Steven Rinella [91:27]

• On evolving management:

  “If Michigan’s hunters don't start killing does... hunting as a management tool might become archaic…they will find another way to manage this deer population if it can't be done through hunters.” – Brent Rudolph (as paraphrased) [124:29]

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Key Timestamps (MM:SS)

• 01:37: Open call for help on the Rompola Buck investigation.
• 24:37: Corner crossing segment–legal history, Montana lawsuit, and future implications.
• 53:15: Arizona's "Cinco" jaguar, habitat fidelity, and border wall impacts.
• 64:06: Tech in tournaments: Omnidirectional sonar and marlin catch rates.
• 77:28: South Dakota’s controversial east river elk eradication policy.
• 94:12: CWD detected on the National Elk Refuge—feedlot debate.
• 106:04: Legislative threat: Kisatchie National Forest land transfer proposal.
• 113:27: Michigan’s one-buck rule and full rifle legalization.

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Tone and Language

The show is characterized by humor, candor, and a matter-of-fact approach to even the most divisive issues. The hosts are willing to explore gray areas, voice unpopular truths, and push back against simplistic narratives—often leavened by stories of odd rural encounters and inside jokes among long-time hunting buddies.

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For Listeners: Takeaways

• Audience insight and grassroots stories play a real role—especially in the ongoing buck-mystery series.
• Complex legal and management issues (corner-crossing, wildlife eradication) often require informed, community—not solely government—solutions.
• The intersection of technology, tradition, and ethics in outdoor sports is evolving rapidly; listeners are encouraged to think critically about where they stand.
• Wildlife management is always a balancing act between biology, social acceptance, economics, and property rights.

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For in-depth coverage, hunting/fishing law wonks, or those navigating changing regulations, this episode is an engaging, panoramic look at the state of the American outdoors—and how we use (and preserve) it.

Transcript

[Steven Rinella]

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[Yanni Smilgis]

Hey everyone, Are you ready for more of the best hunting content on the Internet? Good, because we're continuing Meat Eaters 12 and 26 series featuring a long form look at 12 of the most significant hunts from the past year. This installment covers my Manitoba Archery and Rifle Caribou expedition and it is a total banger. Throughout the episode, we successfully take three caribou, land countless lake trout and prepare two of the most unique meals we've ever put on film. Presented by Onx Maps and Moultrie Mobile. You can catch the full video right now on the Meat Eater YouTube channel.

[Steven Rinella]

Welcome to the News Show. Cal's back and on this episode we need you to help us solve the mystery. Cal, who's back talks Corner Crossing updates Another jaguar is hanging in Arizona, or as Spencer Newhart says, jaguar. Michigan makes some major buck hunting rule changes and Giannis is here to tell you all about it. Seth reports on the end of the integrity of fishing, but that's probably not how he looks at it. My wife took a mouse home, which still surprises me. South Dakota sets an unprecedented elk hunting management plan and more. But first, our news. Here's the biggest thing periodically on the news show we're gonna start doing this is quick. But periodically on the news show we're gonna start doing these little we need these. We need audience help. We are doing finally, we are in the mid we're in the process of working on an extended series about the mystery of who killed the the world record whitetail buck. Was it Milo Hansen who recently passed away? Or was it Mitch Rompola? Is and the Main thing is, is the Rompola buck legit? We're doing a whole series on it. Jordan Sillers, who you know and love from Blood Trails, is running this project. With my assistance, we're cranking on it. First, here's the first IT call for help that we need. If you, If. If you listener. If you. Someone in your network, whatever. There's two people we're looking for right now. If you know about a Texas man who in the late 1990s was negotiating the purchase of the Rompola Buck and backed out of that purchase, can you send us a note? Again, a Texas man who was negotiating the purchase of the Rompola Buck in the late 1990s and ultimately decided to back out of that purchase. Please reach out to us. How do people supposed to reach out to us?

[Yanni Smilgis]

Where should they send the note?

[Steven Rinella]

What's the Meaty Miners? The Meat Eater podcast? The Meat Eater podcast at the Meater.com the Meater podcast at themeeater.com put Rompola R O M P O L A in the subject line. Second thing, if you or anyone you know worked for an outfit called the Arkansas County Seed Company in the late 1990s or early 2000s, please reach out to us. Again, anyone who worked at, familiar with, knows someone who worked at a place called the Arkansas County Seed company in the late 1990s or early 2000s, please reach out to us.

[Phil Monahan]

Do you ever watch Unsolved Mysteries, Steve?

[Steven Rinella]

No. I know about it. My agent used to produce segments.

[Phil Monahan]

He used to produce the reenactments hosted by Robert Stack. There'd always be a great moment, sometimes like one in five episodes. At the end of the end of the episode, they'd have an update. And you get a little rush watching that because they've just, like, potentially cracked the case. That's how this feels, that you're. You're like casting Wide Net. And we're gonna have an update come next episode.

[Steven Rinella]

I hope so. I hope so. Yeah. My agent, Mark Gerald, my literary agent, he's been my agent for over 20 years. He. He used to. Did you say America's Most Wanted?

[Phil Monahan]

No, Unsolved Mysteries.

[Steven Rinella]

Sorry. He used to produce the reenactments for America's Most Wanted. Like back a million years ago. The weirdest job in the world. Yeah. Like, when it gets all, like, trippy, you know, and there's like a shooting in a hotel or something. That was his job.

[Phil Monahan]

Be fun.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, here's the deal.

[Yanni Smilgis]

For sound that weird to me. Sounds like it'd be a Fun little.

[Steven Rinella]

No. Yeah, like not weird, but like. Yeah, yeah, he liked it. Look at this.

[Yanni Smilgis]

One of those things they don't tell you about in high school at career day.

[Steven Rinella]

Look at this.

[Yanni Smilgis]

It's like not a job that comes up.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay, pull up those pictures I sent you.

[Seth Morris]

Yeah.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Steve, get closer to the mic.

[Steven Rinella]

My wife. Oh my God, look at this. My wife was hiking the m hill in town and she sees laying. Look at this. She sees. Listen to him laying in the trail. Laying in the middle of the trail on a rock. A brand new born mouse that doesn't have his eyes open yet. Look at that picture, huh? Its eyes weren't even open.

[Seth Morris]

Aren't they born with no hair?

[Brody Leven]

I thought they're born hairless.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, yeah, he's not brand new there, but like, what the hell's he doing out in the middle of the trail? I don't know. Just laying there, eyes closed.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Do you know what kind of mouse it is?

[Steven Rinella]

Jimmy thinks that he. He thinks it's a deer mouse or something. Look at. Listen to it.

[Seth Morris]

Yeah, listen.

[Steven Rinella]

He's so. Its eyes weren't even open yet. And I'm thinking there's no way they're gonna keep that thing alive. But my boy starts. Where's that little deal? He starts feeding it even though its eyes are closed. He's feeding it with this for me. He's feeding it ranch dress, puppy, puppy. Milk replacement. It's crawling up Steve's arm. Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Were you guys all like, thank God we don't live on a cruise ship?

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, well, that's.

[Steven Rinella]

That's one of the issues that came up is all that antivirus. So I had to keep telling my wife, like, he's probably gonna catch something from us. We're not gonna catch something from him. And then, then our dog got sick and then she thought the mouse was killing the dog. But that doesn't seem to be it.

[Phil Monahan]

What's the long term plan with this? I don't know.

[Steven Rinella]

Watch this. See if he's hungry right now.

[Ryan Callahan]

Musky bait.

[Yanni Smilgis]

He's starving.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, look at that. He knows.

[Seth Morris]

He knows. What's up.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, dude, that's great.

[Seth Morris]

This little mouse sometimes squeaking. It sounds like the A frame.

[Steven Rinella]

You gotta watch this. This weird. I'm hoping I can trigger the weirdest part of this. Get a good load in there. Okay, watch. This is the weirdest part.

[Randall Williams]

This gets weirder.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, he doesn't know how to swallow real good. Watch. So he has to do this little thing where you think he's having a seizure. Watch this he might be getting too old for it now.

[Yanni Smilgis]

No, I just. I see it coming. Flatten your hand out. Yeah, flatten your hand out.

[Steven Rinella]

It lasts 10 seconds when he has a seizure.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Look at him.

[Ryan Callahan]

He's like, please do.

[Steven Rinella]

No, he's not doing it anyway, we can move on. But the surprising part about this is you guys know Katie.

[Seth Morris]

That's pretty cute.

[Steven Rinella]

Katie is the last woman on the planet that's going to bring a mouse home.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Obviously not.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, I know, but you would think, right? It's not like she's going to step, but she's not going to, like, squish it. But she's not going to bring it home. I want him to do his seizure.

[Randall Williams]

It seems to me that she's more frequently trying to decide how to get weird stuff out of the house.

[Phil Monahan]

Yeah, this is payback.

[Steven Rinella]

See, when he gets mad at. He's. When he's done, he's done. He makes all kinds of noise.

[Brody Leven]

What's he dragging around on his belly there? Then he like a dried. Dried up.

[Steven Rinella]

He just took a growler anyhow, because I don't want the Honda virus. And then you guys could keep talking about the news. Now, that's interesting, though, isn't it?

[Brody Leven]

You guys haven't come up with a plan for that mouse's future yet.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, I mean, how long they live? We're not gonna get rid of them.

[Brody Leven]

That's what I was asking my wife.

[Steven Rinella]

You're gonna release it back and let it go? Did they let it go out in the yard? And I don't. The kids aren't interested in that yet. They were like, yeah, no.

[Phil Monahan]

Is there a name yet?

[Steven Rinella]

It's Meble.

[Brody Leven]

Okay.

[Steven Rinella]

Yanni's daughter, but with the e. Not

[Randall Williams]

named after Yanni's daughter, but Meeple the mouse.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Let's Google search how long.

[Brody Leven]

Randall, you should go into your captivity.

[Yanni Smilgis]

I don't know.

[Randall Williams]

I just don't think people are interested in my chickens.

[Yanni Smilgis]

I am.

[Seth Morris]

Yeah, I think we.

[Yanni Smilgis]

I think.

[Brody Leven]

Well, give us the quick version.

[Seth Morris]

We are.

[Brody Leven]

Steve's washing up.

[Randall Williams]

I just. I feel like. Yeah, okay.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Well, one to three years for a pet mouse.

[Randall Williams]

We lost another chicken to birds of prey. Got home from the great state of Florida on Monday, and I thought, man, there's a lot of big chickens there that the chickens have all grown and turned dark. Instead it was 12 vultures they were killing or they were consuming one of our chickens.

[Phil Monahan]

When you pulled up after being gone. Yeah, 12 vultures were there.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah. And then they came back. I chased them off, and then they came back about an hour later. So I've been looking into like.

[Brody Leven]

Yeah, circle in your house.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, they've been back three times now since then.

[Ryan Callahan]

Are you going to apply for a U.S. fish and Wildlife permit to destroy vultures?

[Randall Williams]

Did you. Oh, did you read ahead? No. You don't even have that in front of you. I've looked into it. Yeah, I've looked into it. Depredation. Depredation permits. Because I don't really know what else to do.

[Yanni Smilgis]

You have a netting over the top of your chickens.

[Randall Williams]

Well, now we have. We have fishing lines strung up. We've got reflective stuff strung up. We're doing all we can.

[Ryan Callahan]

Non lethal measures.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Yeah.

[Seth Morris]

So you can actually.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, because they're covered.

[Randall Williams]

They're covered under the.

[Ryan Callahan]

Especially if it's. If it's hitting your livestock.

[Seth Morris]

Next episode of Roast Johnny.

[Steven Rinella]

Did you guys keep the show going? We did, yeah.

[Randall Williams]

Poorly. Poorly. We just got through the chicken segment. It went about as did you expect.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall Williams]

I didn't come into it with the right attitude, though.

[Brody Leven]

He didn't, he didn't bring any energy.

[Steven Rinella]

I didn't. I would have brought a dead chicken down here and like laid it out and had a visual aid.

[Ryan Callahan]

The fun thing to me is, and it's a delicate conversation around the Williams Ranch, Williams Chicken Ranch, is that they're not at the point of chicken farming yet. To where a dead chicken is means absolutely not.

[Steven Rinella]

Just sweep it up.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, I mean, I'm there, get there.

[Randall Williams]

I'm

[Steven Rinella]

Missed it. Like, I'll watch later, but like. Like on a 1 to 10, like, is he just maybe not cut out for that kind of segment?

[Randall Williams]

No, I just think the chicken. I just think our audience, the chicken, the chicken stuff, I just think they're. They're tired of it. I think they got the.

[Brody Leven]

Well, it was the buzzards, not the chicken.

[Steven Rinella]

I wish you'd have a vote. Like a vote where people vote on that the mouse segment or the chicken segment was better.

[Ryan Callahan]

I still have prop. I still have that interest meter up in my office. Steve, that.

[Randall Williams]

That guy made the mouse one was good.

[Steven Rinella]

Bring that down sometime.

[Seth Morris]

Yeah, we could do it next week.

[Ryan Callahan]

I think people need to vote on what they would think of Randall if he were to get a U.S. fish and Wildlife depredation permit, nuisance permit, and remove 12 vultures.

[Steven Rinella]

That's over a chicken.

[Yanni Smilgis]

No one's gonna care about 12 vultures. That's not bad optics. Now if he was gonna wax and bald eagles.

[Randall Williams]

And let me be clear, I'm not. This is not a Plan I'm making. I've only done the preliminary research, but it's three now. Three chickens now by the buzzards.

[Phil Monahan]

If I came upon that scene, I wouldn't automatically assume that the vultures killed the chickens.

[Steven Rinella]

I don't know.

[Phil Monahan]

It wasn't like a stray cat.

[Seth Morris]

Seems like they're cleaning up.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, that's my initial assessment. There's been some very hasty Internet research that says they do do that.

[Steven Rinella]

When you're on the Internet there, can you find out what kind of mouse that is?

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Thank you.

[Randall Williams]

I mean, I actually have a better. I have a better story than the chicken vultures. It's the time Sydney called me to say, there's a mouse in the house, and I said I thought I killed them all. And then I go back, and there's a little bald baby mouse.

[Steven Rinella]

Did you raise it up?

[Randall Williams]

Nope.

[Steven Rinella]

Fed some chickens.

[Randall Williams]

But I wondered how it got it. I wondered how it got on the floor of the closet because it couldn't walk. And so then I started going through all the stuff above it in the closet, and I realized there's a travel pillow up on the top floor, up on the top shelf of the closet that had been chewed up and hollowed out. And then I started going through all the pockets of the shirts and coats below it. Found 10 of those suckers.

[Steven Rinella]

I didn't know you lived in filth and squalor.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Was this despite Sydney's best efforts?

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, this was in Missoula. So then I had 10. 10 little baby. I think my understanding is that I'd probably trapped their parents the day before, and then they went out in search of a guardian like Steve's family.

[Steven Rinella]

That could have been why he's in that trail anyhow.

[Randall Williams]

God, my stories are.

[Steven Rinella]

They bombed.

[Randall Williams]

You want to start up, Phil?

[Steven Rinella]

Start over now?

[Ryan Callahan]

We're out of time.

[Yanni Smilgis]

All right,

[Steven Rinella]

so coming up here to Monday, there's. There's no interview show. There's no interview episode dropping on Monday. On the meat eater podcast feed, which is Memorial Day, we had a. We had a. We had an awesome guest booked. They had a health thing. They're rebooked. Don't worry. They're fine. But there's no episode on Monday.

[Yanni Smilgis]

It's gonna be good. Can we give, like, a little teaser about what it's gonna be about a

[Steven Rinella]

person that studies the olfactory capabilities of animals and humans. And one thing we're going to talk about is this idea that people. And I say it, too, that humans have a bad sense of smell. One of the things Is that's not true. There's some things we can smell. There's some things we can smell very acutely, but we just don't put any value on them anymore. Sulfur, like if you take a grizzly bear on rotten meat and whatever you get in like parts per whatever. A human on sulfur is unbelievable, but we just don't respect it anyways. And. And a lot of her research is around squirrels. Interesting olfactory capabilities of squirrels. She's fine. She's gonna.

[Yanni Smilgis]

It's gonna be good for her.

[Steven Rinella]

She's already rescheduled.

[Randall Williams]

Could she potentially speak to the great dry land tracking versus snow truck?

[Steven Rinella]

You know what, why don't you come down? You can sit in too. Yanni's sitting in because Yanni's going to ask her.

[Yanni Smilgis]

I've already sent her 20 questions like that and similar.

[Steven Rinella]

So anyways, on Monday, what will happen instead on Monday is. Is we're going to fill that slot with something we were already doing anyways, which is Yanni's 12 and 26 companion podcast episode answering your questions about his Manitoba caribou hunt. What could people expect to see in that video, Yanni?

[Yanni Smilgis]

They can expect to see a grand adventure to the north country of Manitoba, where Simone Yang and I went and did another hunt with our Buddy Now Craig McCarthy, North Mountain Adventures, who I bear hunted with the previous spring. And he was looking into possibly expanding his operation into the north country for some caribou. And he, he kind of needed a group to go and. And just do a trial run. And I was like, oh, that could be us. That sounds like a good time. I like going on hunts like that where it's like, it's not like he's been there for 10 years and you know exactly what you're going to expect. So yeah, Song and I went and Max Barda and Eli Harris filmed it and we had a great time. You know what we did? We did the thing that you often don't like. We brought two weapons.

[Steven Rinella]

I was already planning on Tom Ahad disapprove of that.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Okay. But I think you would approve.

[Steven Rinella]

You make your bed and lie in it. That's what I say.

[Yanni Smilgis]

But I think you would approve because we didn't do the thing where you go up there and you're like, I'm gonna hunt with my bow. And then when I can't get it done with my bow, I'm gonna pick up my rifle and shoot one. We instead went out first with rifles and said we're gonna knock down a couple of. A couple of boo get our meat hanging, then we're gonna go have some fun bow hunting.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Yanni Smilgis]

That makes no difference.

[Steven Rinella]

Doesn't matter, I think.

[Yanni Smilgis]

But that doesn't. That doesn't change your opinion.

[Steven Rinella]

It's not like a deal. It's not like a. Well, it's not got to make a law about it. It just always strikes me as odd. It always strikes me as odd. Always. Yeah.

[Randall Williams]

If you can kill animals, who cares what approach makes sense?

[Steven Rinella]

Who cares what I think about it? It just always strikes me as odd.

[Yanni Smilgis]

I just thought that this would have changed it because I felt like your complaint in the past was that people act like they're going to be serious about bull hunting and then they give up and they switch to the rifle.

[Steven Rinella]

I just don't do like years ago. Remember you were there. Remember we had on. Remember we had on. We interviewed Bo Jackson.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Yes.

[Steven Rinella]

Bo Jackson is very interested in. He's very interested, like getting a deer with a pistol, getting a deer with this, getting a deer with that, you know, I mean, like, very interested in weapon of choice.

[Yanni Smilgis]

I'm tracking.

[Steven Rinella]

He's very in method of taking. Like, if I go spear fishing, I don't be like, well, I'm gonna bring a homemade one. I'm gonna bring a this one. I'm gonna bring a that one. You know, I mean, I just like bring the. The appropriate spear gun.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Yes.

[Steven Rinella]

I'm just not like, I'm not like a mixing up method of take gun.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Instead of using rod and reel out of a boat, which you could just as probably well catch all those fish that you're shooting.

[Steven Rinella]

No, you can't. Ask Seth. Seth will tell you. They're always hitting on steel. Seth. I don't.

[Ryan Callahan]

Go ahead.

[Brody Leven]

You're doing a whole show to prove or disprove this theory.

[Steven Rinella]

Actually, soon we are. Well, yeah, you could pull up to an oil rig. You can drop all the baits and throw all the jigs and do everything you want and nothing.

[Seth Morris]

Right.

[Steven Rinella]

You think that there's nothing there. You dive underwater and it's carpeted in fish.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Like that's true heart. Oh, yeah, that's true.

[Steven Rinella]

Carpeted and fish.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Even with some live bait.

[Seth Morris]

I don't know if we tried live bait.

[Steven Rinella]

Yes. Yes. Did we carpeted in fish. I want to keep going on the news show, though. Anyways, it doesn't matter. I think tell people about the video real quick because we got them.

[Yanni Smilgis]

So Simon and I went hunting with Craig and had a lot of luck. Simong did a. I can't believe we've Never done this in all the years of film and meat eater. He did a. He did tripe out of a caribou stomach, which is way cool.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Something we had never covered off on.

[Steven Rinella]

And did he call it anything weird?

[Yanni Smilgis]

Nope. He called it monk stew.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, yeah. Yang was making me some of that and he called it poop soup. I'm like, you gotta rebrand. Yeah, you gotta rebrand. Poop soup, dude.

[Seth Morris]

Yes.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Yeah. He did say, though, that in. In tougher times, they would eat the stomach contents with the. You know, as. As opposed to cleaning it all off and just eating the tripe. But we weren't in a position where we needed to do that. But surprisingly, actually, it wasn't surprising. I mean, enough tripe to know that it's really. Doesn't even have a flavor. It's more of just the texture and it's like a filler, like, I would imagine. There's probably not that many. I don't know. There's probably some calories in the stomach.

[Steven Rinella]

I don't like. I don't like long brain and I don't like stomach.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, man. Go get a tripe taco where it's fried crispy and then it's gooey on the inside. Oh, my God.

[Steven Rinella]

Maybe long brain and lung. Brain and gut.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Not my scene.

[Randall Williams]

No.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Well, it was a great adventure. You can see it now on the meters.

[Steven Rinella]

What's the episode? It's like Yanni hunts caribou's.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, it's called Boo Buddies.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. He catches a caribou.

[Randall Williams]

Giannis's first archery caribou.

[Steven Rinella]

There you go. Oh, there you go.

[Yanni Smilgis]

You know how we're always trying different thumbnails with. With sometimes different titles, so I don't actually know if there was a title, but if you shoot. Search Giannis Meat eater Caribou, I'm sure you'll.

[Randall Williams]

If you search Giannis apostrophe first archery

[Yanni Smilgis]

caribou, you'll definitely get to it.

[Randall Williams]

Meat eaters 12 and 26.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, you'll be right there.

[Yanni Smilgis]

But yeah, if you have any questions after you watch the episode that you'd like me to answer, put them in the comments and. And Corinne and Corey myself are going to go through there and curate the best questions, and then I'm going to answer them on the podcast. It's going to come out on Memorial Day.

[Steven Rinella]

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[Steven Rinella]

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[Ryan Callahan]

Corner Cross where do you want me to start? On this thing, just like what's happening.

[Steven Rinella]

Let's go back to the beginning. Let's not go back to like, no Adam and Eve. Yeah.

[Seth Morris]

But.

[Steven Rinella]

So let's take it from how it was. Good law. Where was it declared? Corner crossing. Let's not do the whole checkerboard explanation. Yep, good law, Federal court, Supreme Court, and what's next?

[Ryan Callahan]

Okay. Main thing is, is folks who've been tracking this Wyoming since and sits in the 10th Circuit. Wyoming, over the course of three years, went through a corner crossing case that. That made it up through the court of Appeals and then was reviewed by the Supreme Court of the United States and ultimately determined that the lower court's rulings were. Were good. And that's where the 10th Circuit sits. Meat eater was a big part of that because we did a bunch of fundraising through our land access initiative for that Corner crossing case, raise support for. For the funds for that. That legal fight. Montana since. Sits in the ninth Circuit ever since.

[Steven Rinella]

Can you refresh me a little bit? Like 10th is New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

And ninth is. Must be us, Idaho, Washington. That how it goes? Okay. Yeah, someone grabbed that, William.

[Phil Monahan]

Colorado, Kansas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Utah, Wyoming is what? That would be tenth.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay, hit me with ninth.

[Phil Monahan]

Randall's on it.

[Randall Williams]

Oh, this Internet is so. Seems like a really easy Internet question.

[Steven Rinella]

He's never going to stumble, which he's never going to find out what kind of mouse.

[Randall Williams]

Montana, Idaho, Washington, Oregon, California, Nevada and Arizona.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, some big heavy hitters in there. Huge.

[Randall Williams]

And the Northern Mariana Islands.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yep. And we get a lot of mail from Guam. Yeah. So.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, it's good to have Cal.

[Ryan Callahan]

We. We have. They're through our Armed Forces Initiative. We actually have a bunch of Bhaers on Guam.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay, There you go.

[Ryan Callahan]

They just kind of live in one particular spot and have access to a lot of fun stuff anyway within the 9th Circuit. So that 10th Circuit case would be the case that gets referenced if there was a federal case in the ninth Circuit. It is persuasive, but it is not technically the law in the ninth.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

But it would be that thing where it'd be like, boy, it went all the way through here.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. So you know when Corner Crossing was going through the 10th.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

And then the thing people would reference was the Unlawful Enclosures Act.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

If it went through the 9th, you would sort of throw that out and reference.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yes.

[Steven Rinella]

You would start referencing the latest iteration, which was the corner crossing question.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yes.

[Steven Rinella]

So people would be like, well, the precedent or whatever, or the guideline is really fresh from 10th.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yep. And, and the thing to remember too, there's their state and federal law. Unlawful Enclosures act is federal. It was a law signed, you know, passed through Congress, signed by the president, I think four years before Montana ever became a state. So there's no question as to what came first.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

But there is no federal case in Montana and how it became a federal case in Wyoming. Most people are like, just because like didn't necessarily have to. But it was interesting enough at the time that a federal judge decided to pick up that case.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

So. And it's not, it's odd that you can't. There's avenues to make an appeal to a federal court, but it's not just something that that is as you can't just pick and choose randomly.

[Phil Monahan]

Right.

[Steven Rinella]

So where. Whereas it. In the 10th in Wyoming. What, what the, the, the incident that led to corner crossing being clarified legal is that there was some guys that corner crossed. They were cited for corner crossing and they were acquitted. The, the, the landowner appealed, they won. And that was. The inciting incident was a specific corner crossing mechanism.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

And, and a lot of similarities too.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right. The, the state of Wyoming had said this is not something that we're going to prosecute on both your, your game wardens, basically your law enforcement agencies. We're already at the point of like, this isn't something that we, we do.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep.

[Ryan Callahan]

Unless there is actual trespass, which means like causing damage, spending time on private ground.

[Steven Rinella]

And if this had, if just a little civics lesson here. I think I'm clear on this. The, the landowner that was trying to like keep it illegal to, to make it illegal to corner cross tried to take his case to the Supreme Court. Yes. The Supreme Court declined to hear it.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

So that ends that, that ends that legal fight.

[Ryan Callahan]

It does for there.

[Steven Rinella]

But had the Supreme Court taken, had the Supreme Court taken it and again declared it's legal, would that have then been. Would that have then been for all

[Ryan Callahan]

districts that would have been like the precedent setting case.

[Steven Rinella]

So that would have all of a sudden made it that it's just like across the west, where applicable, it's legal.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. And you know, it's all right, we can still fight these things, but an attorney is going to be like, hey, here's the deck that's stacked against you, like, I'll take your money.

[Steven Rinella]

But like they declined to hear it.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yep. So back here in the ninth Circuit, the state of Montana has this long history of paying attention to cordon Crossing, not paying attention to Corner Crossing internal memos saying, we are gonna. We are not going to issue citations. We'll defer to the county attorney's office. Once the 10th Circuit Court decision was made, then we started to see things change here in the state of Montana where they were kind of beefing up their. Their language. The state was beefing up the language. Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks is, you know, they don't get to create laws and rules and regulations, they just enforce them. And so they're. They're the. The mouthpiece for this. Right. And eventually they essentially created a rule by saying wardens are going to cite for Corner Crossing. And at that point, Montana, BHA and eventually myself had had multiple conversations with the state that.

[Steven Rinella]

Pause you for a second.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yes.

[Steven Rinella]

Because this is the thing that just now is confusing to me.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yes.

[Steven Rinella]

And it never confused me before. Yep. Why is Corner Crossing a Fish and game? Like, why is it a Fish and Game issue if it's a state wildlife agency and corner crossing can be federal or state and you could feasibly corner cross to go do anything. Yes, you could corner cross to go

[Ryan Callahan]

camp, hiking, bike, take a bathroom, cut wood, whatever.

[Steven Rinella]

Why is it their problem?

[Ryan Callahan]

Because this is largely just focused on. On hunting. Right. It's like vast Bureau of Land Management land out there, typically.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

A lot of state land, too, because

[Steven Rinella]

it's just who's doing it. Like, who's likely to do it.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

It's not a dog walking. It's not regarded a dog walking issue, man.

[Brody Leven]

I think there's also an aspect of like, taking game off of.

[Steven Rinella]

Sure.

[Brody Leven]

Public game off of, like, you know what I mean?

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, but that gets into.

[Steven Rinella]

I get why it had, like, I get why, but I just.

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, well, I mean, the real. I think the, the real way to break it down. Right. Is because in our state, trespass laws, you have civil and criminal. And within that you have hunting without landowner permission.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Okay.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right. And that is something that game wardens, they're.

[Phil Monahan]

They're.

[Ryan Callahan]

They're your. Your people.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, that makes sense. Because it's not the public end of it. You're right. It's not the BLM end of it.

[Ryan Callahan]

No.

[Steven Rinella]

It's the, the dude whose land your shoulders are passing over. Yep. Okay.

[Ryan Callahan]

And then. Yeah. And then you get into all the things that we heard in the Wyoming case, which is like, how do we define airspace? And is this. If it is trespass, what are the damages? And how do we define and value the damages to private airspace? And a lot of this is just totally academic, like having a A really fun physics teacher, right? It's like, well, how many ants stretch around the circumference of the world? Right. Versus just like the practical nature of like, are there damages? Is this something that the whole world needs to be involved in?

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Yanni Smilgis]

How.

[Ryan Callahan]

How do we extrapolate this out throughout time? All those, all those fun things? So Montana BHA had had many, many conversations with, with the state on just simply saying, go back to the previous memo. There is no law in the state of Montana that regards Corner Crossing. Go back to this legal gray area. And for those who wish they can take their chances on being referred to a county attorney, but the reality is, like, no county attorneys want to take this case. And, you know, I can tell you right now, like, I've never corner crossed. I know lots of people who do. This is not a new thing. It certainly gets headlines, but it's been going on forever. Years ago, when we were like, researching places to hunt within the state of Montana to like helicopter into because they were, they were so landlocked, inevitably I would talk to somebody and be like, well, you're not going to be the only person in there. People Corner Cross in there all the time. It's just like something that is done. And then we started hearing this

[Steven Rinella]

from

[Ryan Callahan]

Fish, Wildlife and Parks. You know, I just asked directly, I said, so why in our opinion, there's an escalation in the language around Corner Crossing. Can you tell me why that is

[Steven Rinella]

without a foundational change? In fact, quite the opposite.

[Ryan Callahan]

And they said, yes, it's because they said, you're right, we are using stronger language around Corner Crossing. And it's because we've received more calls on trespassing. Not at the Corner.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh.

[Ryan Callahan]

To which I responded, well, that's great. That's trespassing and we have lots of laws for that.

[Steven Rinella]

You should catch those guys.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yes. So that, that was just like an interesting bit of conversation. But then, yeah, we decided to file a suit against Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks, which again, is like the mouthpiece for this. And in that suit, we say, hey, you guys stepped over the line. You guys created a rule without going through the proper public process that we have here. So that's illegal. And then we would like the judge to define Corner Crossing in the state of Montana, which is called, we're asking for a declaratory judgment. So that's no jury, that's just the judge gets to decide. It's a very relatively quick legal avenue to getting a decision on something. Not a first choice scenario at all. A lot of Times there's risk involved with, with taking something to court because you may get a favorable decision. That isn't exactly what you wanted either. But we do have a legislative session coming up here in the state of Montana. And that would be another way to define lawful access to publicly managed ground.

[Steven Rinella]

Do you see? Is there a world where it would be beneficial to have a person who is cited and do the same thing that happened in Wyoming? Like if you knew a guy, let's say you knew a guy.

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, there's no guarantee it's gonna be picked up by a federal court. And we know the federal argument works great. And we don't, you know, it is down to interpretation.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And, and the court cases that exist here in Montana are similar, but different, you know, and some of them are pretty fun, like guys shooting ducks over other people's property. What can do, you know, stuff that is very much in the hunter's wheelhouse.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And it's, it is good reading. And so I would say, no, I don't want people to go out and get caught and cited and then, and then say, please, please, let's go to court over this.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

You know, the, the better pathway was one, to have the state define this and two, would go through the proper legislative route and, and, and get this buy in. Right. So there's a lot of actors at play here representing different groups. You know, I'll tell you, like when we made the announcement of incoming CEO to, to bha, I had a lot of people in the agriculture community, you know, just throughout, like my friend and family network reach out and be like, okay, how are you going to screw us and how are you going to help us? Was really the whole conversation.

[Steven Rinella]

Bucket. The corner crossing thing.

[Ryan Callahan]

No, interestingly enough, when I talk about this, almost, almost every single person that I talked to, and these are like old Montana families, they said. Now if you could tell me that corner crossing would move the elk off of my absentee landowner neighbor's property. So they keep moving around instead of just coming onto my place at night. I'd be all four. Corner crossing

[Steven Rinella]

for this guy.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, I got it.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

But the next door neighbor who is completely absentee doesn't do anything but show up for a couple of days during elk season. That's who I want help with.

[Steven Rinella]

Got it. When we going to know more? How long will it be?

[Ryan Callahan]

So the. We filed a couple of weeks ago. Then you have to serve. To my knowledge, it has been served. And then the state will have 42 days from when they received the paperwork to make some sort of an action.

[Steven Rinella]

Got it.

[Ryan Callahan]

So more than likely what they will do is ask for the case to just be dismissed. Say, well, it doesn't meet. No, no, no, this was just a memo. We didn't create a rule or law and ask for. Ask for the case to be dismissed.

[Steven Rinella]

In the meantime, if you or your friends are somehow taking a more casual attitude to trespassing because of your understanding that corner crossing is legal and you just now feel like you're just allowed to go where you want, you're not only hurting, you're hurting yourself, you're hurting hunters in general. And it sounds to me like you're also hurting this process.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

[Randall Williams]

And the, the lieutenant governor gave a statement last week about corner crossing and essentially sort of just declared it illegal. And

[Ryan Callahan]

I don't think the lieutenant governor quite did that. She made her opinion be known. And then Representative Paul Fielder.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall Williams]

He said, thanks for telling us what the law is.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yes. He is the one who then.

[Randall Williams]

But someone at the, someone at the committee meeting said, you know, if, if this is illegal and has always been illegal. Can you give us examples of people who have been cited for corner crossing? And the only. She said, well, there is this corner crossing case, but it turned out that they were actually just trespassing. And there was this corner crossing case and it. But it turned out like when they went back and investigated, these guys were just. It was just a plain trespass. So every example that she gave to sort of throw doubt on. Yeah, corner crossing is a legitimate form of access. Every one of those was. Were cases in which people claimed they were corner crossing, but they were actually just trespassing.

[Steven Rinella]

Because I think what's motivating that with people is, is is guys are saying, hey, once we're on there, we'll just say we crossed at the corner.

[Randall Williams]

Right.

[Steven Rinella]

And those guys are going to screw this whole thing, Right? Yes, those guys are going to screw this.

[Ryan Callahan]

Exactly. Because.

[Steven Rinella]

No, no, buddy, if we're on there, just say we can't just like say we came over from Blankety blank corner. Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Especially when you're out there in the middle of nowhere.

[Steven Rinella]

Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

And oftentimes there are no fences. You're like, well, this seems pretty arbitrary.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Steven Rinella]

If I was a landowner, I'd put a camera on my property on the corner. And then when guys are like, I corner cross. And I know they didn't corner cross, I know they came in from some other way, I'd be like, well, let's go have a look. Your picture should be on my camera and lo and behold, you ain't on it. Yeah, at the corner.

[Ryan Callahan]

The other interesting thing that the lieutenant governor brought up is problem corners, which is something that, that came up in Wyoming as well, where we don't have the exact location of a corner anymore because it was marked with a pile of rocks or a, you know, dinosaur bone is something people reference. I've never seen that personally and. Or there was a tree there. Or there was something other than a survey marker.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

Big boulder. Something that is going to be very, very hard to cross over the top of without having to step on. On private land. It's awesome that the lieutenant governor brought that up. The state of Montana is not doing anything to identify those. Neither has the state of Wyoming. We created a site at backcountry hunters and anglers using ArcGIS where if you would like to turn in problem corners so we can identify.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, that's great.

[Ryan Callahan]

You can just plop your coordinate coordinates in there. And that can be a misaligned fence. That can be a missing monument marker. That can be all, all sorts of things that just go, oh, this puts me outside of this legal gray area.

[Steven Rinella]

I was in the lead up to this. As this is going on, I was picturing and I don't even know how it would play out. I was picturing doing fundraising in order to help clarify mark and identify corners. The problem with that, I can I. I imagine my own problem you would run into is you would need to get the land management agency on board. Y and it just might not be a thing they want to entertain. But if you to go out and be like, hey, no, we're going to pay for it. We'd like to have, we'd like to have the corner surveyed and marked. But then you'd have to do the permit process with them. And depending on their attitude about how much they want to court controversy, they might not welcome that input and they might not have a mechanism to accept that money anyways.

[Brody Leven]

You'd probably have to get the landowners

[Steven Rinella]

involved too, which they might not be that excited about that. Yeah, I mean, but it was in my mind.

[Ryan Callahan]

And the thing that we've said from the get go, right, is like, we just need a nice, very quiet solution because the vast majority of these people don't want to be hassled. They don't want to see a bunch of trucks piled up at a corner. And I'm like. And neither do hunters. Like, we just want to know that we're in the right and not Be hassled and go do our thing and that is it. So there's a ton of. Ton of ground in the middle here, and we're really, really trying to keep it that way versus see some of these arguments get picked up like, oh, it's anti private property rights. Whereas we're trying to define private property rights. And like happened in Wyoming. We were very supportive of a bill that clarified private property language and, you know, gave some assurances to the private side of the fence that people know what private property is. But what we're seeing out of the state so far is a lot of acknowledgement of the problems without any

[Brody Leven]

work

[Ryan Callahan]

towards fixing those problems. Or like you said, you know, I had brought a solution that would take a lot of work, but I think would. Would pay really big dividends for everybody. And, you know, there just wasn't a lot of interest in endorsing that effort or even acknowledging it as something productive. But I think we'll get there. And that might be something that this lawsuit helps with. There's another program that we put into action in Montana through the legislature that would provide private property owners the ability to. To create easements through the block management program. So they wouldn't have to open up their property to hunting, but they could provide an access corridor to landlocked land.

[Steven Rinella]

That's a slick idea.

[Ryan Callahan]

Or corner locked lands.

[Steven Rinella]

Heck yeah, man.

[Ryan Callahan]

So same deal. Willing buyer, willing seller scenario. And would be contractual, just like our block management private land public access program is slick, man.

[Steven Rinella]

Pay people for. Pay people for trespass.

[Ryan Callahan]

However, we can't get any metrics out of the state as to how many people were interested in the program, how many people they actually talked to about it, any sort of feedback. And so, you know, I think if we want this program to succeed and be a viable option, put a couple of bucks in the pocket of producers who are keeping land open for wildlife connectivity.

[Steven Rinella]

That might be a good private. That might be a good privately funded effort.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. Yep. And it. And it's going to make a little pot of money, make people aware of.

[Steven Rinella]

We got to move on. But. But picture you set it up and you make a little pot of money and strike your own deals with a pri. With a private entity. Yep. A non profit entity.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

All right, ladies and gentlemen, Ryan Callahan back from the dead, CEO of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers.

[Brody Leven]

Welcome back, Cal.

[Ryan Callahan]

That's right. Thank you. Do I get to sit in on the rest?

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, you hang out. Yep.

[Phil Monahan]

Can I say one last thing? I'm looking at the 31 page document where the Montana lieutenant governor like made this announcement.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Phil Monahan]

On slide seven of 31 slides, they say ownership of real property extends above and below the surface from ancient Roman law. Quote, to whom so ever the soil belongs, he owns also the sky and

[Ryan Callahan]

to the depths, from the heavens to the hell.

[Phil Monahan]

I think if you're, if you're referencing.

[Steven Rinella]

What do they say about. What did the Romans say about COVID vaccine recommendations?

[Phil Monahan]

Referencing something from 500 BC from an empire that doesn't exist. You're on the losing side of the argument that that just like doesn't work.

[Steven Rinella]

That reminds me of Dai Due from the land and from the sea.

[Ryan Callahan]

From there there's been. This is where. This is the structure of a lot of our private property law in America. Right. Comes Roman England over here. And that has been referenced many times as like. Yeah, that's a fun history fact. But is it applicable today?

[Steven Rinella]

Aren't they the people that killed Jesus?

[Phil Monahan]

What if we find something from like the USSR that said something about like stepping from one?

[Steven Rinella]

No, because that's not how.

[Phil Monahan]

Why not?

[Steven Rinella]

But because law didn't flow that way. I gotta move on. Yeah, there is a thing to this. There is a thing. Like, like.

[Phil Monahan]

But why, why can't we do the ussr?

[Steven Rinella]

It just doesn't work that way.

[Phil Monahan]

Oh, okay.

[Steven Rinella]

It's like the cradle of Western civilization.

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[Steven Rinella]

Hunting demands preparation, persistence and gear that will not quit on you. That is why I wear first light. This isn't about hype. It's about no compromise. Gear. Built to perform, built to last. Whether it's their industry leading merino, wool, Keeping me comfortable through the cold and the hot. Or their durable outerwear. Shrugging off the elements. First Light is built to help you go farther and stay longer. Designed by hunters, for hunters with a deep commitment to conservation and land access. No shortcuts, no excuses, just gear you can count on. Head to first light.com that's F I R S T L I T E.com A new Jaguar is in Arizona. They named it Cinco somewhat arbitrarily. Good job, Phil.

[Brody Leven]

It's good looking, good looking jaguar, dude.

[Steven Rinella]

You want to see a great photo, Phil? Type in jaguar in the snow.

[Ryan Callahan]

Just.

[Seth Morris]

Just a random jaguar.

[Ryan Callahan]

Do you know why?

[Steven Rinella]

No, just jaguar in the snow. I know what image you're going to pull up.

[Yanni Smilgis]

You know why they named him Z?

[Steven Rinella]

I'll tell you. It's. It's somewhat arbitrary. It's the fifth jaguar known to be in Arizona in the last 20 years.

[Seth Morris]

Okay.

[Steven Rinella]

But here it's more, it's more interesting than that. What's interesting is so. So this jaguar is hanging around. The people that are tracking it with trail cameras don't want to be too specific about its location, but it's in the sky island mountain chains south of town, Tucson and Arizona. It's in cier country. Here's where it's interesting. This jaguar, Cinco is using the same travel corridors it's using.

[Ryan Callahan]

Which one of these you want to look at, Steve?

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, not those. Never mind. I thought you'd pull it right up. So Arizona jaguar. No, there's a trail cam photo. Just whatever, never mind. Keep that one up. That's Cinco.

[Ryan Callahan]

Great.

[Steven Rinella]

It is using. This is where it gets good. It's using the same water holes, travel corridors, trails as another one of these jaguars did in the past.

[Brody Leven]

El Jefe. Or was it.

[Steven Rinella]

I can't remember. I don't know which one, but it's it because like, so it's like there's. There's two things. One is it that this piece of habitat is so good and it's like such a signature of what jaguars want, that it's like he just settled into the same place. Or is it that there is years old, residual odor from a jaguar which is holding this jaguar's attention. Or is it like site fidelity, meaning if you. Let's say you went to a farm and you killed all the deer off a farm. So there's no institutional memory. Right? And new deer come back, they're probably going to wind up coming out of the same corner bedding in the same area. Right? Like for sure they're going to look at it the same way. You take all the fish out of a lake. It's not like you put new fish in the lake, that they're going to have a totally different way of hanging out. They're going to like the same stuff. I'm just guessing here, but it's probably true. So it's just interesting that, like, they're drawn to certain things, which opens up the possibility because when jaguars turn up in Arizona, they're always males. They're dispersing males coming out of Mexico. But it opens up the possibility that what would seem so random that a female would show up and you'd be like, well, how in the hell is a female ever going to find a male? You know? But maybe there's something about the site specificity that opens up the idea that you could plausibly, instead of having one jaguar at a time in Arizona, you could plausibly have two that are drawn to the same place and find each other, which is promising. Again, this dude Cinco is a male. All these are males. There's a guy, there's a researcher quoted in this Tucson Star. Is that the name of the outfit? The. The name of the old rag?

[Brody Leven]

Sentinel.

[Steven Rinella]

Tucson Sentinel. There's a researcher saying perhaps these jaguars. I don't know where he gets this. They're fleeing persecution in the south. Come on.

[Brody Leven]

That's reading into things.

[Steven Rinella]

That's not what's. The jaguar's not like. I'm sensing persecution of myself in the south. I'm going to move up to, like, the north. It's dispersing males. It's like males trying to find new territories.

[Brody Leven]

Yeah. When he says persecution, I don't even know what the hell mean by other males or like the cartels.

[Steven Rinella]

The same guy also. I'll get to another point. The guy, the same guy said it

[Ryan Callahan]

means that the jaguars organized. That was courtesy of Randall.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, I slacked it to Phil.

[Steven Rinella]

That's a jaguar in Arizona. Picture that jaguar in the snow. That's what I want more of in my life. Jaguars in the snow. I'm a big, huge. You might not notice about me. Huge jaguar advocate. I want jaguars back in America.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Big cat guy.

[Steven Rinella]

Big cat guy. Not just that big jaguar guy. They don't want to put a collar on these jaguars because they got a hangover from. They got a hangover from the macho B.

[Randall Williams]

Careful here.

[Steven Rinella]

I know.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Careful.

[Steven Rinella]

Listen, I'm going to hear about it. I have dear friends that don't like talking about this. There's a hangover from an incident called the Macho B incident. Where in Arizona. I don't want to get into it too much. In Arizona, they caught a jaguar and sedated it with a sedative that is good for mountain lions, but is. Is not good for members of the Pantera genus.

[Ryan Callahan]

And how'd they find that out?

[Steven Rinella]

Because it had kidney failure. So now there is a man. Let's not be putting no collars on no jaguars. I. Without being a. Without being a wildlife professional. I think you should. The reason I think you should is because it would help you. When some guy sees this and shoots it because he's wondering what it is, it would help, you know, that happened, where that happened, and potentially who did it, who.

[Ryan Callahan]

The persecuting parties.

[Steven Rinella]

When it goes off radar, if you're only using trail cams, when it goes off radar, only thing you know is it's not walking in front of your cameras. If you got a collar, you get a mortality signal. It just seems to me better to put a collar on that son of a. To, to. To risk. To take the risk. Put a collar on it. If it was a female, I might be like, too risky. Don't do it on a male. I'd put a collar on that sucker.

[Ryan Callahan]

But isn't it. Heffle fingers, like, long position, like, how much actual mating went on in the Arizona side of the line.

[Steven Rinella]

I am not going to mention Jim Heffelfinger.

[Ryan Callahan]

Okay.

[Steven Rinella]

Except for just what I did right there.

[Ryan Callahan]

Okay. Perfect.

[Steven Rinella]

I am not mentioning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good, good. Yeah. The same researcher. The trouble with all this is this damn border fence between us and Mexico. I give my. I'm not even going to give my spiel again about this. This is a wildlife show, so I'm not talking about ag product. This is a wildlife show. The, The. The. The one way we can guarantee to never have jaguars back is you build an impenetrable barrier between us and Mexico because they're coming out of Mexico.

[Brody Leven]

We're going to talk about that next week.

[Steven Rinella]

One of these researchers saying when these jaguars come up against the border fence, he suggests. I get what he's getting at. He's trying to be like, real anti fence, which I appreciate, but in this case, it's his job. But then he uses the same scare tactics that I hate people using. Like. Like just be honest. He's like, they come up against the fence and they'll just walk along the fence until they die of thirst or starve to death. No, that's just not what animal. How animals. How Many, like, go to any fence and walk along and find all the starved to death, died of thirst, deer along the fence. They come up to a fence, they try to find a way through, and then they go about their business. I don't think that that could be true.

[Brody Leven]

If you're talking about turkey, it's just

[Steven Rinella]

like, I get it. He's kind of like, being like, man, I don't want this fence. What can I say? That sounds like crazy. They'll walk down the fence until they starve, give up. He's like, the only time you see

[Seth Morris]

that is a South Texas cold snap.

[Ryan Callahan]

I thought.

[Steven Rinella]

Or it seems like the beach, the Atlantic coast would just be dead animals that hit the shoreline and then walked until they starved to death, fell over. It would just be nothing but dead animals up and down the coastline.

[Ryan Callahan]

I thought we're making big headway on having permeable sections of the border down there.

[Steven Rinella]

That's why I'm a big advocate of electronic barriers.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

As technologies get so good, Lord knows drones are getting good. As their technologies get so good, some people are even positing. I mean, there's even people that are primary. And again, I'm not.

[Ryan Callahan]

There was like that constitutional sheriff's group down there that was like, no, we do not need a wall through Big Bend national park and through.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, yeah. It's more and more. And it's like, we. Our brand promise is we focus on wildlife and outdoor stuff and hunting and fishing. So I'm not talking about this. It's out of this show's area of expertise to talk about the impacts of. Of illegal migration, which are huge. And there are plenty of places you can go listen to the news and hear about that. This is a wildlife show. The fences are good for wildlife. You can. You can accept that and then come up to whatever decision you want about fences. That's up to you. I respect your decision, but for wildlife, it ain't good. You can. You can decide that you don't care about that. That's totally fine. That's your right as a listener. Feel what you think. For wildlife, it's a bummer. In addition to that, I'll say for the wildlife question, there's also an increasingly, there's an argument to be made that electronic barriers are more effective, quicker to put in place, and ultimately less expensive. I'll just leave it at that. There's plenty of places to go. Read more about it.

[Randall Williams]

And we're also not going to talk about Jim Heffelfinger.

[Phil Monahan]

Can I talk about Jim? Real Quick, if you're not going to.

[Steven Rinella]

You're going to talk about heffle real fast. Get ready for an email.

[Phil Monahan]

The other day, in an email, Jim called himself Forrest Gump. Yes, I'm currently reading.

[Steven Rinella]

Talk about that.

[Phil Monahan]

I'm currently reading Forrest Gump. He's not Forrest Gump.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, no, you can't read Forrest Gump because it's terrible.

[Phil Monahan]

It's really.

[Steven Rinella]

The movie is better than the book.

[Phil Monahan]

In two pages, Forrest goes from protesting the Vietnam War to being thrown in a mental health hospital, to becoming an astronaut, to going to outer space with a gorilla, the wrong gorilla, to crash landing the space shuttle with in Papua New guinea where he lives with cannibals. That all happens in two pages. So I'm sorry, Jim Heffelfinger, you're not Forrest Gump.

[Steven Rinella]

Wow.

[Phil Monahan]

The book is insane.

[Ryan Callahan]

You're baiting me.

[Steven Rinella]

In the book, no one in their right mind

[Phil Monahan]

don't read the book. The movie's. The movie's great. I love the book. Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Half a finger.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Not for kids.

[Steven Rinella]

Heffle finger winds up. No, there's a part. Yeah. I just want to move on.

[Brody Leven]

Yeah, let's move on.

[Steven Rinella]

Just this morning I was talking about having Heffelfinger come back on the show about something totally different, which is super fascinating. He can speak for himself. Okay, who's up?

[Yanni Smilgis]

Seth. I can't wait for Jim.

[Seth Morris]

Speaking of technology, ladies and gentlemen, this

[Steven Rinella]

is Seth's first news story.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Seth Morris]

Hopefully it goes well. We'll see.

[Steven Rinella]

Did you try. Did you practice it in front of your wife?

[Brody Leven]

No, you judge is very.

[Randall Williams]

There's no guarantees, Seth.

[Seth Morris]

I'm not worried about it. A recent study published by the ICES journal Marine Science found that boats using the omni sonar, or omnidirectional sonar, while fishing the big Rock Blue Marlin Tournament, which is a billfish tournament out of

[Yanni Smilgis]

Morehead City, North Kakalaki.

[Seth Morris]

Yeah.

[Phil Monahan]

Michael Jordan competes in that one.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Is that the same one where the dude had the. The one that got bit by a shark or something like that?

[Yanni Smilgis]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Seth Morris]

They. They found that boats that were using the technology experienced 60 to 84% higher catch rates than boats without the technology.

[Steven Rinella]

I wish I could whistle better because

[Seth Morris]

I'd go, what is omni sonar, you might ask? Well, it is.

[Randall Williams]

That's a nice way.

[Steven Rinella]

It's great, dude.

[Randall Williams]

Like.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth Morris]

It is an advanced underwater scanning system that gives anglers a 360 degree live sonar view. That's what the screen looks like.

[Randall Williams]

Visual aids.

[Steven Rinella]

Jeez.

[Seth Morris]

So that there on the left would be a mark. Of fish.

[Steven Rinella]

Really?

[Yanni Smilgis]

Yeah. What's the other stuff? It's just in the.

[Seth Morris]

It's like sea current.

[Brody Leven]

And you're able to like, tell how far that mark is from the boat?

[Seth Morris]

Yeah, somehow I don't exactly. It's like very high tech stuff that I have no experience with, but. And I was watching a video on it, and it seems like they can click on that with a cursor and they can go to it. Go to track it.

[Phil Monahan]

Well,

[Yanni Smilgis]

not Remy, but Renee. Renee.

[Steven Rinella]

He uses it.

[Seth Morris]

Yeah, I called him a few times

[Yanni Smilgis]

and never said that. They basically, they don't troll anymore once they find the fish. And then they feed that fish a particular bait that they've rolled up.

[Seth Morris]

I was watching a video of it, and they're like, oh, there's a mark. And they like clicked on it. And the boat, like, kind of navigated to that mark. And he's like, all right, we're going over it right now. And he scans over. He scans his phone over to down imaging. He's like, there's the fish. And then he turns around and starts filming his baits that he's trolling. And then he hooks up on fish.

[Steven Rinella]

Sons of bitches, man. Jealous or. Yeah, man.

[Seth Morris]

Anyway, it's like. It's like forward facing sonar, but it's like a three. It casts like a 360 degree beam around the boat and like.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. And it descends out of the hole.

[Seth Morris]

Yeah, it's a through hole transducer. I have pictures of the thing. Go to the next.

[Steven Rinella]

If we were alive a long time ago and someone invented a hook, Would we be like, what's the world coming to? You got to use a gold.

[Ryan Callahan]

I was in a technology seminar at the North American wildlife thing a couple of weeks ago, and one of their examples of emerging technology was choke tubes that people were like, what's the world?

[Seth Morris]

Right there, number three.

[Steven Rinella]

So here's tearing a new one to the right here.

[Seth Morris]

The far right is the actual unit.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Huh.

[Seth Morris]

And then that's the whole. The hole in the bottom of the hole in the middle. And then that's the transducer coming out of the bottom.

[Steven Rinella]

So you can put that sucker in and retract it out.

[Randall Williams]

This is a phenomenal.

[Yanni Smilgis]

You don't want to be underway, I don't think with that.

[Seth Morris]

No, you gotta, you gotta.

[Brody Leven]

Did it say how much these systems cost?

[Seth Morris]

Yeah, I was going to get to that. Towards the end.

[Steven Rinella]

Seth's gonna need a new job.

[Randall Williams]

I'm gonna get voted off the island.

[Ryan Callahan]

All right.

[Yanni Smilgis]

So this.

[Seth Morris]

The study analyzed two Years.

[Steven Rinella]

Take Randall's seat over there.

[Seth Morris]

Sure.

[Randall Williams]

It's nice and warm.

[Seth Morris]

The study analyzed two years of data from this. This specific tournament.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Seth Morris]

2024, 2025. And the. The scientists doing the study compared catch rates between boats equipped with the technology and without it, and they found that the technology significantly increased catch rates of blue marlin and other pelagic species. Data from 302 participants was analyzed in 2024 and 272 participants. Participants in 2025. Of the 574 participants, about 50, 50 were using the sonar.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth Morris]

In the two years that were analyzed, 46 of the boats. Okay, this is. This is a lot of numbers here. 48, 46 of the boats caught four or more billfish. So you can kind of see in this chart here, the light blue does not have it. Dark blue has it. So all the way to the left there, that's, you know, 160 plus boats that do not have the sonar caught zero fish. Okay. You know, whatever. 75ish caught no fish. Now if you go all the way to the right.

[Steven Rinella]

So 160 boats with no sonar caught 0 fish. 78 boats with no sonar caught 0fish.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Seth Morris]

So if you go to the right here, there is, you know, you start. You start getting to the part of the chart where boats with. Without the sonar aren't catching over, you know, five fish.

[Steven Rinella]

Can I interpret this real quick?

[Seth Morris]

Yeah, go ahead. It's a little confusing.

[Steven Rinella]

No, it is, but I'm. But I'm just. I'm just trying to think about people not listening. Yeah. So if you look at, like, boats that got skunked, okay. You got 160 boats with no sonar that got skunked. You got 75 boats with sonar that got skunked. So it's not a guarantee. Right. But then you get down and let's say you're talking about catching four fish at the point when it's. You caught four billfish. No boats with no sonar caught four. Yep. Only people that caught four are boats with sonar. Five fish. No one with no sonar is catching five, six. No one with no sonar is catching six. Seven. Same. Eight, Same Nine. Same.

[Seth Morris]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

So if you don't. So basically, this chart is saying if you don't have sonar, your catch is capped at three billfish. If you have it, it seems you'd have the potential to catch nine. But then this is the question I got for you, and I told you this when we talked. Is it just the classic case of that those dudes that the dudes that are so serious, they would have caught more anyway are also the guys that happen to have the sonar.

[Seth Morris]

Well, I got some for you.

[Randall Williams]

Okay. Whoa.

[Seth Morris]

There were 20, 24, 20, 25. There were 16 boats that went from not having the technology to having it.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Oh.

[Seth Morris]

And their catch rate increased by 94%.

[Steven Rinella]

Ah.

[Randall Williams]

Wow, Seth.

[Steven Rinella]

Dude, you could convict someone in a jury trial.

[Ryan Callahan]

I liked the, the four catch because that's like, like you get. It's like people without sonar but really know the system. The currents, they're. They're, they're fishy dudes. That's where they drop off. Yeah, right. It's like they, they've. All that skill then is outmatched by the advantage of technology.

[Steven Rinella]

Am I hallucinating? Is there a blip at 18? 18?

[Ryan Callahan]

Yep.

[Randall Williams]

Sonar boat.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Oh, yeah.

[Seth Morris]

I didn't even notice.

[Randall Williams]

That's a sonar.

[Steven Rinella]

There's a sonar boat that is clocking in.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

At 18. Billfish.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. That had six of those on our side.

[Randall Williams]

I mean, another way to read this.

[Yanni Smilgis]

They had one really good day.

[Seth Morris]

Ye.

[Randall Williams]

Another way to read this is that the majority of boats without sonar got skunked and that boats with sonar were just as likely to catch one or two, essentially as they're ripping lips, ripping bills.

[Brody Leven]

Why? This might come back to the cost thing, but why would some boats not even have it? Because it's new.

[Steven Rinella]

So he's got something for that.

[Yanni Smilgis]

It goes like.

[Randall Williams]

Great question, Brody.

[Seth Morris]

The researchers looked at the teams that struggled during the tournament. And of the boats that didn't catch any billfish, those without Omnisonar outnumbered those with it more than 2 to 1. So cost breakdown. The. The omnidirectional sonar unit, depending on who you get it from, is 95 to $100,000. Install is 25 to 30 grand.

[Phil Monahan]

Could you do it, Seth?

[Steven Rinella]

Could you install one that's pretty handy?

[Seth Morris]

I'd have to.

[Brody Leven]

I, I don't.

[Yanni Smilgis]

You gotta cut a hole.

[Ryan Callahan]

No problem.

[Yanni Smilgis]

And it's not just any boat. It's a lot of. This is a million or 2 million,

[Seth Morris]

you know, 70 foot Vikings. Big, expensive boat.

[Brody Leven]

I feel like for a lot of these boat owners, that cost is not like prohibitive.

[Seth Morris]

This just kind of puts in perspective the tournament entry fee is $50,000 per boat. And the, the, the purse in total is just over $6.3 million.

[Randall Williams]

Oh, you're wasting money if you're fishing without something.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, but you still gotta have it. Be that your wife's like looking at credit card stuff and there's like a zinger There is a zinger maybe on there that isn't normally out there. What's this hundred thousand dollar thing?

[Ryan Callahan]

I'd be really interested to know. Like fuel consumed with boats with versus without.

[Phil Monahan]

Good argument.

[Steven Rinella]

That's what you wind up telling her. You see, like, baby, listen, this is more ecologically the amount this is going to save me on fuel.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Seth Morris]

And your percentage winnings, the percentage of

[Steven Rinella]

time on the water goes up higher.

[Ryan Callahan]

That's the reason all the 23 boats out there is. There's a lot of side money being wagered.

[Seth Morris]

The Calcutta is the big money in these tournaments.

[Steven Rinella]

So then you just sit, you like. Baby, listen, man, it's like when you look at all my prize money and fuel savings, you're gonna thank me.

[Randall Williams]

I can go out and get a fish and be back for time at the country club.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall Williams]

Play a game of tennis in the

[Steven Rinella]

afternoon to take your mom.

[Randall Williams]

An investment in our relationship.

[Brody Leven]

Eventually it'll be. They'll be like, oh, that mark's not big enough. We need to go find a bigger one.

[Seth Morris]

Well, I wonder, first year bass fishing,

[Yanni Smilgis]

now that one of these was in the tournament, was there one boat that had it or was there already five boats that had it? Like, was there one year where one guy was just like, yeah, yeah. Or was there five boats that were thinking that, you know.

[Steven Rinella]

Sure.

[Seth Morris]

I think that's how.

[Yanni Smilgis]

What are you sure about?

[Seth Morris]

I think that's how it was with like the Bassmaster Elite Series, you know, like somebody the first year forward facing sonar camera on the scene. A couple boats had it and they were, they were doing it. Well, I mean, it took a lot.

[Yanni Smilgis]

I'd like to know if it was one or if it was ten.

[Seth Morris]

I don't know.

[Yanni Smilgis]

First year.

[Steven Rinella]

Hey, I want to point out too, Seth was just talking about that he got bad grades in high school.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Yeah.

[Seth Morris]

Jimmy has a bright future.

[Steven Rinella]

So there is a path forward.

[Randall Williams]

Look at this guy.

[Steven Rinella]

Look at this guy over here.

[Randall Williams]

The hell of a report.

[Steven Rinella]

Seth Morris.

[Phil Monahan]

Well done.

[Ryan Callahan]

Holy smokes.

[Steven Rinella]

Just an amazing segment.

[Phil Monahan]

Keeping up with the Jordans.

[Randall Williams]

Power this thing down, Phil.

[Steven Rinella]

You know, Amazing.

[Randall Williams]

High note.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Yeah. Lunchtime.

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[Steven Rinella]

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[Phil Monahan]

you Spencer, South Dakota announced earlier this month that they are creating a new elk unit that will have an unlimited number of tags. Before we talk about that though, we should look at the history of elk in the state to kind of frame how we got here. Elk are native to damn near the entire lower 48. Phil has a map there for us that shows this from the US Forest Service shows their historic range outside of Florida and a little bit of New England. Elk touch damn near every state and for context their footprint is very similar to the distribution of whitetail deer. Like that's how much they they crossed the entire continent.

[Steven Rinella]

I'll tell you what I didn't know. This is a great graphic. What I didn't know is that they didn't like the Cascades. Yeah, they like both sides, but they didn't like they didn't like the actual spine.

[Phil Monahan]

Now specific.

[Steven Rinella]

No, the Sierra Nevada. Sorry, didn't like the Sierra Nevada Cascades.

[Phil Monahan]

I'd say that's up there. North Washington, central Oregon. Specific to South Dakota, Manitoba and elk are native to the whole state as they are much of the Great Plains west of there starting in central Montana, central Wyoming. The Rocky Mountain elk east of there starting Minnesota, Iowa or the eastern elk. Elk were extirpated from South Dakota in the late 1800s. It's thought the last one was killed there in 1888. The state started Restocking them almost immediately, less than a couple decades later. And they got those elk from Yellowstone, Jackson hole, and by 1928, South Dakota had an elk season again. So, you know, 30 years later, they were hunting them. Now those restocking efforts were focused on the Black Hills, which is where about 85% of the state's herd lives today. There is a picture from, from Wind Cave national park of an elk herd. If you're not familiar, the Black Hills are located in way western South Dakota. It's where Mount Rushmore is, just east of Devil's Tower in Wyoming. The, the Black Hills, they rise up out of the prairie. It's separate from the Rocky Mountains and it's actually home to Black Elk Peak, which is the highest point east of the Rocky Mountains at 7,200ft. The black Hills are just like textbook elk habitat. There's about 8,000 of them that live there today. Now, most of the bull tags that are considered once in a lifetime tags in 2025, 42, 000 hunters applied for 2500 licenses. Actually today as we sit here, the archery draw happened and the rifle draw. So some folks are finding out that

[Steven Rinella]

they just, while we sat here, one

[Phil Monahan]

of these lifetime tags, they just got their email.

[Steven Rinella]

Congratulations.

[Phil Monahan]

This morning, 2025, 42,000 hunters applying for 2500 licenses. Even having dozens of preference points isn't good enough to guarantee a tag. Last year, in one of their more popular units, there were six applicants who had 27 preference points and only one of those six drew a tag. That means those hunters had been applying since the 1990s. They still have to wait some more. We're looking at one of these draw tables right now. There were three guys with 28 points and only one of them drew a tag. So you're up for a long wait there. Harvest rates are always really high though, because there's intense, intense management spreads out hunting pressure, limits licenses for bulls. Again, that's specific to the Black Hills, where most of the state's elk live. The other 15% of the elk are spread out across the prairie. And there's some very limited hunting that happens with those herds. Most of those elk live on the west side of the Missouri River. The Missouri river kind of perfectly splits the state in half. It actually plays a significant role in the state's wildlife management when it comes to big game. Deer, turkeys, elk, even some of their waterfowl. The state has kind of broadly created three distinct zones that they manage. There's the Black Hills, where all the elk live. Then there's west river, which is everything left of the Missouri river that's not part of the Black Hills. And then there's east river, which is everything right of the Missouri River. When it comes to elk, that's easy to remember. Yeah. When you're having like a conversation with another South Dakota and it's like East River, west river, you know, it comes to like deer hunting where you grew up, where you pheasant hunt, it's just like perfectly cuts the state in half. Makes it very clean for, for managing game as well as just communicating about game. Now when it comes to elk, the Black Hills has those herds that we talked about. And then there's the west river, where some sporadic populations live. Variety of landscapes, Butte country, badlands, cedar jaws, cattle pastures, prairie ag river bottoms. It's not all that different than what you'd find in eastern Montana, for example, or western Nebraska, where elk also live. There's about a half dozen west river units that give out some tags. And it's thought that there's a few thousand elk that live west of the Missouri river that are not in the Black Hills. Then there's East River. There are just a sprinkling of elk that exist. East River. This is a trail cam photo I got three years ago. Way eastern South Dakota, not, not even really close to the Missouri River. But they do exist there.

[Steven Rinella]

Where are they coming out of?

[Phil Monahan]

If you see one where I grew up in way eastern South Dakota, there would be equal chance that it came from western South Dakota or western Nebraska or it came from a high fence farm somewhere in Minnesota. Eastern South Dakota just wandered off one day and got away. So this, this is a bull elk I got at a pinch point. I was bow hunting, I think in 2023. I also saw one on the hoof and in 2017, so it happens. It's a thing. The state doesn't provide any official numbers for the herds. East river, there's just some guessing as to what, what their rate is. But up until this year, if you were to shoot an elk east river, you'd be considered a poacher. You get fat, fine. You lose your hunting rights. You'd just be labeled a straight up evil person by your fellow outdoorsman because you took one of the state's most coveted animals out of a range that it's expanding to all on its own. That is no longer the case, though, in South Dakota because they are now giving out an unlimited number of out tags for everything east of the Missouri river besides tribal lands, which is its own Thing.

[Steven Rinella]

But they want them gone.

[Phil Monahan]

They want them gone. They want to eliminate them because of what? Agriculture? Yeah, we'll get to it. The new.

[Steven Rinella]

Are they going to kill all the deer do?

[Phil Monahan]

No.

[Randall Williams]

Okay.

[Phil Monahan]

I like.

[Randall Williams]

For now they're safe.

[Phil Monahan]

The new elk tag. It's created to eradicate the elk that live east of Missouri river because when

[Steven Rinella]

they eat something, it's different.

[Phil Monahan]

Very different. Here are some quotes from the South Dakota Game Fishing Parks reps about this new tag. Quote, elk are a fantastic big game animal that are welcome in every other part of the state. But the fact that. The fact is we just can't tolerate having them in eastern South Dakota. Here's another quote from director Tom K. Throwing the. He said this in the meeting where this was voted on. Quote, we have no intentions of managing elk on the prairie in the eastern part of the state. Now, during this brief process, the GFP has referenced that these elk are creating problems with landowners by eating crops and wrecking fences, which is why they explicitly said they will not tolerate them. Here's a picture in western South Dakota of a bull elk that is feasting agriculture.

[Steven Rinella]

Some bitches like add a blind.

[Phil Monahan]

Yeah, he's standing right in front of an elevated redneck blind. Legislative committee voted 4 to 2 to allow this in a separate vote by the GFP commissioners. It's a group of eight appointed by the governor. They unanimously voted to approve this. So the, the GFP suits are all about this elk eradication plan. Residents do not agree with him though. I posted a poll in a private Facebook group called the East River South Dakota Hunting and Fishing, which is just what it sounds like. It's. It's largely made up of South Dakota residents who like to hunt and fish east of the Missouri river. There are 17,000 people in this Facebook group. I asked, what do you think of the new unlimited east river elk tags? Do you approve, disapprove or not sure. 323 people took this poll. 17% said that they approve, 73% said they disapprove, and 10% said they're not sure. That means that more than 7 out of 10 South Dakotans do not like this man.

[Steven Rinella]

Are you sure that wasn't the Iran war?

[Phil Monahan]

I haven't seen that talked about in the East River, South Dakota hunting.

[Steven Rinella]

This is remarkably similar breakdown.

[Phil Monahan]

It's similar approval rate.

[Ryan Callahan]

Of the 17 that approved.

[Steven Rinella]

Sorry, go ahead.

[Ryan Callahan]

Of the 17 that approved, do they have access to a place to hunt out?

[Phil Monahan]

Huh?

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. They're like, I've been seeing one.

[Phil Monahan]

Yeah, it's.

[Steven Rinella]

It's in. It's indefensible.

[Phil Monahan]

I'm. I'm with you. I agree.

[Steven Rinella]

It's native wildlife. It's like God put them there.

[Phil Monahan]

I was expecting you, Steve, to do a gotcha and say, well, they're Rocky Mountain elk, so they're not actually native, but South Dakota, in their elk management plan, calls elk the biggest native deer that's hunted in the state.

[Steven Rinella]

So they.

[Phil Monahan]

They consider. Even though they're Rocky Mountain, Rocky Mountain elk and not native to South Dakota, they call them a native animal.

[Brody Leven]

But, I mean, the elk. Pennsylvania and Kentucky are Rocky Mountain elk, too.

[Phil Monahan]

I. I know, but they knew that

[Steven Rinella]

it was all game farm escapes.

[Phil Monahan]

It's not.

[Steven Rinella]

I could see it. If you have elk, wild elk, walking in on their own four feet.

[Phil Monahan]

Yes.

[Steven Rinella]

Onto native habitat. That's a. That's a no. No.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

That's like a moral. No. No.

[Phil Monahan]

Their main argument is that the elk are creating private land conflicts. Well, guess what? That happens in every state. Eastern Montana, western Nebraska, western North Dakota, eastern Wyoming, eastern Colorado, central Pennsylvania.

[Steven Rinella]

Kill every elk in the country.

[Phil Monahan]

And just across the Missouri river in South Dakota, the same thing happens.

[Steven Rinella]

And this deer are a pain in the ass, depending on your perspective.

[Phil Monahan]

Totally.

[Steven Rinella]

You hit them with your car, that's a pain in the ass. They eat your crops, that's a pain in the ass. I don't know. Ticks, whatever. You should kill all. Everything it feels. Dogs can be a pain in the ass.

[Phil Monahan]

Maybe this is where they would have landed eventually, but they skipped like 20 step to get here. You know, they went from, hey, we have elk expanding all on their own to, we don't want them here, so we just have to eliminate them.

[Steven Rinella]

Turkeys can be a pain. They should kill all the turkeys. Turkeys can be a pain in the ass. Yeah.

[Phil Monahan]

There's hazing programs, there's depredation tags, there's reimbursements given to landowners who carry that burden of feeding elk. There are reimbursements given to landowners that allow elk hunting. These are all tools that South Dakota currently uses when they manage their elk. But for some reason, they've gone away from all of those for this east river herd, and they're going straight to. We need to get rid of them.

[Brody Leven]

Is there other state that maybe you looked into this? Maybe. Is there other states that feel the same way about elk, like Kansas or.

[Phil Monahan]

Well, Yanni brought it up that. Like in Texas.

[Brody Leven]

Yeah, Texas.

[Phil Monahan]

I agree.

[Steven Rinella]

I mean, Texas turned around and made native. Made and made native elk non native.

[Brody Leven]

Yeah. Mm.

[Phil Monahan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

I think Arkin A lot of the reintroduced states do have zones of like tolerance, kind of like we do for the bison. So it's like outside of here. Then there's way more liberal tags or you know, various ways of Understood.

[Steven Rinella]

Right.

[Yanni Smilgis]

It's easy to say, oh, let's just have them there. But you have to remember that it costs a lot of money to manage these animals. And when you have a new population like that, it's like if all of a sudden you said, oh, I have the money, I will pay for it. For you to manage these animals, they'd probably be more forthcoming.

[Steven Rinella]

How much is it costing them?

[Phil Monahan]

And again like they.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Oh, I think a lot. I mean just the. Well, because it's the ag depredation. Right. Like that's where like.

[Steven Rinella]

But the elk west of the river are eating crops.

[Yanni Smilgis]

They are. But it's been like socially accepted there.

[Phil Monahan]

It's like the west river prairie unit. That's like kind of new as well. I mean like if I were to talk to my dad or my father in law that came along in their lifetime and they're just like cool with you know, having elk west river that. That landowners deal with.

[Brody Leven]

Is it a thing where the damage is happening now or they're just trying to get ahead of it as before that population.

[Steven Rinella]

Here's what's going on. I don't know this, but I know, you know, I'm saying, you ever have a thing where you know but you don't know?

[Brody Leven]

Well, all the time.

[Steven Rinella]

Some guy. There's a well heeled guy.

[Phil Monahan]

100%.

[Steven Rinella]

There's a well heeled guy that has the ear of his local politicians.

[Phil Monahan]

Yes.

[Steven Rinella]

And he's down there. And the local politician really looks up to him because he's like the salt of the earth. And he wishes he was like that guy. Right. And that guy is like, I don't want these son of a. And elk running around. Yeah. And the guy's like, well, I'm tough too. I'm a big tough guy, rancher guy. And so he's like, we'll kill them all.

[Phil Monahan]

When?

[Steven Rinella]

You'll see how tough I am.

[Phil Monahan]

When they.

[Steven Rinella]

That's right.

[Brody Leven]

Okay.

[Phil Monahan]

The east river population of elk, they say they mostly exist between pier and chamber. Berlin Pier is the state capital. And so it's. It exactly what you said, Steve. That's what people suspect is that like there is someone who has the ear of Pier. There is a donor who would like we'll get to benefit from this.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Or he just wants to be able. When they show up, he Wants to be able to shoot him because it's big bulls.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, he's got big bulls.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Can I give you an example of. Of my argument?

[Steven Rinella]

If you can do it quick because

[Yanni Smilgis]

we got to keep the show in Wisconsin. I was talking to some of our neighbors who experienced elk depredation of their crops last year. And couple counties to the north. It happens all the time. And they pay out the farmers. It's no big deal. So they've been letting like this population is growing. It's come down into the county where we have some land in there, the Surtal. The soil is extremely more fertile than two counties to the north. So there's a much higher production per acre. And so the payout that they're having to do for this, for the same amount of acreage, when an elk comes in and, and kills, you know, one acre, it can be tenfold the dough.

[Steven Rinella]

But extend the logic. All wildlife is a pain in the ass.

[Yanni Smilgis]

I understand.

[Steven Rinella]

It's like geese eat crops, so if the logic holds, they should cease to exist. It's always been true of everything. If the fact that something causes problems means it shouldn't be around, and you extend that logic out, it's Silent Spring. All wildlife is a pain in the ass. From someone's perspective. I got a thing living in my wall right now. Whatever that is, I'm not gonna. I believe it might be a pine squirrel. I'm not gonna be like, they all need to die.

[Brody Leven]

You might have a mouse soon.

[Steven Rinella]

No, it's too big. This thing is big.

[Brody Leven]

No, I'm saying that mouse might pretty soon.

[Phil Monahan]

I've got a couple more.

[Steven Rinella]

They're gonna hang on to that mouse to hit on getting out of that thing.

[Phil Monahan]

A couple more things real quick. I feel like typically it's kind of a lazy argument when wildlife manage. Be like, we should just relocate them. If there's like a problem bear, we should move it. You know, if there's like elk or causing crop damage, we should. We should move it. From the 1970s to the 1990s, in a 20 year span, South Dakota relocated over 700 elk. So this is like something they've done in the past. They're very capable of putting these things.

[Steven Rinella]

Every one of those is thousands of dollars.

[Phil Monahan]

Okay, but like, that's a better alternative, I think, than just like getting rid of these things.

[Steven Rinella]

I disagree. I want to move on, but I disagree.

[Phil Monahan]

But then relocating them, I'm saying the states.

[Ryan Callahan]

I'm having trouble with the new format of this show. There's this drive to keep moving yes,

[Yanni Smilgis]

but this is great.

[Randall Williams]

That's the episode title today.

[Brody Leven]

Them hunt the damn things. But don't make it unlimited.

[Steven Rinella]

Give us the tags.

[Ryan Callahan]

Just keep moving.

[Steven Rinella]

You got anything else?

[Phil Monahan]

Go to my final image. Phil.

[Steven Rinella]

Hurry.

[Phil Monahan]

Last thing. The state record typically was killed a few years ago. It grossed or it scored 392 gross. 383 net. Net. And guess what? That elk was living on private land in western South Dakota on the prairie. Like this is a bull that just on the other side of the river, spent all of his life, for most of his life living on private ground. And South Dakota is very happy to manage these elk. The ranchers deal with them. And we produced a state record bull

[Randall Williams]

and a very happy man.

[Ryan Callahan]

That guy does any sense.

[Steven Rinella]

You could you produce the state record. You could have a spike. Be the state record. You'd have to be. We produced a world record bowl.

[Phil Monahan]

Well, we produced a 383.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, that makes sense. But like you see I'm saying, right?

[Phil Monahan]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

I don't want to spend too much time on it.

[Randall Williams]

Move on.

[Brody Leven]

Speaking of elk, I got another story

[Phil Monahan]

about we need to manage him like a game animal.

[Steven Rinella]

Not enough, man.

[Phil Monahan]

Done.

[Seth Morris]

Done.

[Steven Rinella]

I'm gonna send a letter of complaint to the South Dakota Tourism Board.

[Brody Leven]

Chronic wasting disease. Well, before I get to the National Elk Refuge, Delaware just became 37th state with CWD, which leads into what I'm going to talk about. Chronic wasting disease was just detected on, like officially detected on the National Elk Refuge near Jackson, Wyoming. If you don't know what the National Elk Refuge is, it was established in 1912 near Jackson, Wyoming, after severe winners and overhunting decimated the the elk herd in. In that area in the late 1800s, early 1900s. Kind of the same story that was happening everywhere.

[Phil Monahan]

It's where South Dakota got some of their elk.

[Brody Leven]

Yeah. It's a federally managed wildlife refuse. Congress created it to provide winter habitat and do supplemental feeding to stay close

[Steven Rinella]

to your mic there, Brody, to avoid,

[Brody Leven]

you know, having that whole herd starve to death. Ultimately, it became the largest wintering ground for elk in North America. And on average, anywhere from 8 to 11,000 elk spend the winter there. And it's become a major tourist attraction

[Steven Rinella]

just to bring it home. And to Spencer's deal, Part of the current justification for the elk refuge is that it. That it reduces because they do supplemental get to that.

[Brody Leven]

Oh, yeah, all that stuff.

[Steven Rinella]

Sorry, man.

[Randall Williams]

It's all right.

[Brody Leven]

That's all right.

[Steven Rinella]

Jumped up before we get Steve.

[Yanni Smilgis]

It's hard.

[Randall Williams]

I'd like to move on.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Brody Leven]

Before we get to the CPU DWD end of this thing. The. The National Elk Refuge is federally managed. The state of wyoming also has 21 other elk feed grounds in the northwestern part of the state. Now the. It's the same reasoning to have these things. Prevent large scale winter starvation, maintain large elk populations and associated hunting opportunity, reduce conflict with ranch, ranch lands like haystacks, livestock feed, reducing transmission of brucellosis between elk and cattle. And to support tourism and wildlife viewing, people like cwd, like scientists, have been warning about these feed grounds forever as far as what cw, as far as CWD is concerned. But the state of Wyoming is kind of painted themselves into a corner with this supplemental feeding. And they acknowledge that without these feed grounds, northwest Wyoming would likely support fewer elk and the distribution of those elk would, would shift substantially. They'd go other places. But again, like, researchers have been warning about this because on these feedlots, elk feed nose to nose. Yeah, we've got it up. They feed nose to nose, long feed lines and they're concentrated like unnaturally and unnaturally dense concentrations during the winter. Additionally, these, the prions from cwd, they accumulate and in the soil. And elk are repeatedly using the same contaminated grounds year after year. So just prions, Prions, prions.

[Steven Rinella]

The guy that invented the word says prions.

[Brody Leven]

Okay, that's good enough for me.

[Steven Rinella]

Heffelfinger told me more Heffelfinger.

[Brody Leven]

So in May of this year, wildlife officials, like, confirmed the first known CWD positive elk on the National Elk Refuge. It was an adult cow that was euthanized. CWD had been detected in the broader, like Jackson area surrounding the refuge in 2020, but this was the first time it was detected like on the actual elk refuge on other Wyoming feed grounds. There's 21 of them, but Scab Creek, Dell Creek, Horse Creek, Black Butte, Muddy Creek, CWD's been detected on all of those feed grounds within the last couple of years. So, like, you've got this situation where it's like pretty obvious that concentrating these elk in small areas, a bunch of them over the winter and, and feeding them supplementally, like artificially feeding them, is causing a problem with cwd.

[Steven Rinella]

What? You, you don't know that because you have cwd. Like Montana doesn't do feed. Montana doesn't allow bait. You can't bait in the state, and the state doesn't feed. But state's got CWD popping up all over the place. Okay, so I'm just saying it's like you, you can't say that the only place that it's occurring.

[Brody Leven]

I didn't say it's the only place.

[Steven Rinella]

And I'll be saying it's leading to problems we don't know. You don't really know. You can, you can guess. But where is it coming from in all the other places?

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, I think the, the safest guess. Right. Like we can throw the origin out if it's here now and this continues. Yes, this is going to be a breeding situation for the spread of cwd.

[Steven Rinella]

I would expect to see. Yes, I agree with you there. I would expect to see a higher rate of transmission. But I'm saying like, I don't think it's birthing, it's not birthing the disease.

[Brody Leven]

It's not, but it's contribute, it's likely going to contribute to the spread of the disease at a much faster rate. They're worried about more persistent environmental contamination. So in the soil and in vegetation, things like that. They certainly think that's going to cause higher term, higher long term infection rates could lead to increased mortality and long term population declines. And some, some elk herds.

[Ryan Callahan]

Plus it's got close proximity to high fence operations have terrible records of keeping animals within the high fence.

[Brody Leven]

So like there's been. Wyoming is not going to close these feedlots. They're just not going to do it.

[Ryan Callahan]

Why?

[Brody Leven]

Because, well, there's only, They've been painted them 30 years. They need to, they're, they're kind of in a situation where they need to maintain these elk numbers. Numbers. Right. There's an expectation for it. So the, the plan is expanded surveillance and testing, having hunters turn in more animals, increase monitoring, things like that.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay, so then you just know.

[Brody Leven]

Okay, yeah, they're just like, I'm just telling you that's their plan.

[Steven Rinella]

No, no, but come on, that's just like being like, hey, you know, be like, hey, you know, my kid's dying of a fever. Oh no, I'm gonna keep taking his temperature.

[Brody Leven]

Sure.

[Yanni Smilgis]

I'll just eradicate them.

[Steven Rinella]

I'll keep taking this temp.

[Ryan Callahan]

The, the state's known that this was like an inevitable situation forever. And so it's like what did the state. Has there been any.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, but like you're going to keep taking his temp, but are you bringing him to the doctor?

[Ryan Callahan]

Right?

[Steven Rinella]

No, I'm just monitoring temp.

[Brody Leven]

Yeah, I mean they, they don't have an answer. Their, their, their answer is to maintain feeding operations and do what they can to slow disease transmission, whatever that means.

[Ryan Callahan]

And so long as we don't quit feeding.

[Brody Leven]

Yeah, it's like they Had.

[Steven Rinella]

They're gonna put up a sign, Please, elk.

[Brody Leven]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Don't go super close to each other while eating the food we put out for you.

[Brody Leven]

I.

[Steven Rinella]

Listen, I just want to clarify. I totally understand.

[Brody Leven]

You're coming at me pretty hard.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah. I was hoping you'd have a better plan.

[Steven Rinella]

I'm not coming at you. I don't know the answer. Answer? I don't know that the answer is to stop doing it. It's just. I don't know. I seem like. I'm like, I want to clarify. I'm just a curious guy sitting here. I don't know the right answer, I think.

[Brody Leven]

And from my perspective, the answer would be to maybe slowly wean them off of this situation.

[Phil Monahan]

They starve to death if they just quit feeding them.

[Steven Rinella]

Some would.

[Brody Leven]

Some would for sure. I mean, you've got, like, an unnaturally high concentration of animals.

[Steven Rinella]

It'd be like, if we quit making GMOs, you're going to have tons of humans starved to death. Eventually. You won't need them anymore.

[Brody Leven]

Think about a severe winter where there would be natural winter kill. Like around here.

[Phil Monahan]

Yeah.

[Brody Leven]

Down there, they're like loving life. Doesn't matter how severe the winter is.

[Phil Monahan]

Brody has some images here that are very real, but they look like Photoshop because it's just such a ridiculous amount of. In one space.

[Brody Leven]

Yep.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Yeah.

[Brody Leven]

There. There have been efforts, lawsuits to try and get these feedback lots closed, but they've failed. So, you know, come from hunters.

[Steven Rinella]

Does it come from animal rights people?

[Brody Leven]

You know, I think it's more along the animal rights end of things, but I'd have to look into it.

[Ryan Callahan]

No, I mean, on this disease thing. Like, because Idaho feeds on occasion and in certain areas and they have different. They have feeding programs that. That started when elk from Yellowstone and Jackson Hole were brought to Idaho to reestablish herds that are. That are still going. Their argument, though, is like, this pulls elk on their migration route away from, like, population centers and avoid some human conflict. So it's not just purely the food aspect. It's. It's like manipulating where animals go in the winter.

[Steven Rinella]

Understand.

[Brody Leven]

Sure. That helps to prevent conflicts with ranching operations.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, hunters have been saying, yeah, this is going to bring disease to the herd.

[Brody Leven]

Some hunters. But for a long. I think there's also. I mean, state of Wyoming says it too. It's like we're sustaining these large elk populations and that sustains great hunting opportunity.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But do you want a lot of burger that you're paranoid about or less burger that you're not paranoid about.

[Ryan Callahan]

There is an unbelievable amount of elk in that country. It is wild.

[Brody Leven]

Yeah, yeah. So that's where we're at.

[Ryan Callahan]

Not during feeding.

[Brody Leven]

It was bound to happen and it did. Is basically where we're at.

[Steven Rinella]

Thank you, Brody.

[Brody Leven]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Thanks Brody.

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[Steven Rinella]

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[Randall Williams]

back on Randall's weekly bad stuff happening public lands beat. Today we were going to talk about the rescinding of the public reliance rule. Then we moved on to certified public lands transfer Guy confirmed as BLM director. Then we're going to talk about the House bill to repeal the roadless rule, which goes to committee on Thursday, but got another bad idea to cover. And this one is a bill. It's a proposed bill that's originating in Republican Senator Bill Cassidy's office to transfer roughly 24% of the Kisachee National Forest to Louisiana's Grant Parish, which is Louisiana equivalent of a county. Specifically, the land would go to the local school board and the police jury, which again, there's all kinds of different names in Louisiana for things, but that's basically. The county commissioners and the police jury, to their credit, immediately voiced its opposition to the bill because they saw how deeply unpopular it was. Again, this is just a draft bill. As far as I know, it hasn't been introduced. And I always think that's important when you're talking about legislation to look at where it is, because you'll see, you know, you'll read headlines that say like this, the Democrats and whatever want to ban pants, or the Republicans want to do this, but it's oftentimes just some whack job who's written a bill in their office and has no, you know, chance of passing. So just that disclaimer out there. But the bill, this bill would amend.

[Steven Rinella]

I do. I do love a bill to ban pants. Just to see how. Just. I love. Yeah, yeah.

[Randall Williams]

And then you can go back. You can go back to your wackadoo donors and tell them, you know, I'm fighting the fight against pants. Right.

[Steven Rinella]

But this big short, this bill would

[Randall Williams]

amend the Internal Revenue

[Steven Rinella]

short. Slob.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, I wasn't even thinking about, like, alternative. This would build. Support. Alternative lower half of your body garments. I was thinking of just. Yeah, but no, that's why it's important to have, like, a very careful legislative staff. But this would. This would direct. It would amend the Internal revenue code of 1986 and direct the Secretary of Agriculture to forfeit all rights, title and interests to all portions of the Kasatchi National Forest contained within the borders of Grant Parish, which is about 140,000 acres of public lands. So the bill would just say that goes to the county. They would also get the buildings, the vehicles, the equipments, and all the records of the Forest Service. I guess the justification for this is that Bill Cassidy claims that the National Forest is hindering economic development in Grant

[Steven Rinella]

Parish, but he just got his nut slapped by Trump so bad. He did.

[Randall Williams]

He did. So I think this. I think this hit the headlines like the day after.

[Steven Rinella]

That's why everybody knows who he is now.

[Brody Leven]

So his logic behind this is economic development for that land.

[Randall Williams]

Yes, yes. And hat tip to the Louisiana Wildlife Federation kind of rang the alarm about this. And then I saw the story from Travis hall at Field and Stream. He does a great job of covering all kinds of public land stuff. But the Louisiana Wildlife Federation issued a statement. I mean, one thing that they point to that's interesting is they're tucking this public land transfer into a big tax and economic development bill. And so the Louisiana Wildlife Federation is pointing, like what you're doing here is reducing the visibility of public lands policy decision making by tucking it into this other, you know, like burying the pants

[Steven Rinella]

band, like in the pants ban and some complex things. So some guy one day realizes in the bottom of it, it says, oh, and no more pants.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, no more pants. No more pants. So, you know, you got to read these things carefully. But they, they have raised the. Rang the alarm, raised the red flag over this. I don't necessarily know where this is going, if at all, because it's in a very, very early stage. But again, it's just like, man, these, like, there are people out there who want to do this stuff. It's not a boogeyman. It's not a. It's not a, you know, far off. Like there's people hidden away in back rooms who are never actually gonna do this stuff. Like his office is working on this. And this as. As far as I understand, just from reading about it, like, this seems like a. A treasure of our public land system. It was clear cut and then established in the 1930s under the Weeks act, where we get a lot of our eastern national forests. And it's, it's got a lot of longleaf pine, a lot of wildlife. There's. There's fishing, hunting, camping. It's like a prime recreation destination in the central part of the state.

[Phil Monahan]

When the US Mint did a quarter dedicated to the Kasatchi National Forest, all they put on there is a wild turkey.

[Brody Leven]

Yeah, I brought that quarter in.

[Steven Rinella]

One Spencer thing I've ever heard in my life.

[Ryan Callahan]

This is one of the places you still got it. Louisiana, where. You know how you can never kill whitetails on public land in Louisiana?

[Steven Rinella]

No, I didn't know that. Yeah.

[Seth Morris]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

It's a thing many people talk about

[Randall Williams]

and they have, from what I read briefly, it's like, known for big deer. It's known for big bucks.

[Brody Leven]

Does Cassidy have a history of.

[Randall Williams]

Not that I know of. Not that I know of. It seems like it's kind of out of left field. I mean, he's really known as. I believe he's a physician. And so he's really. A lot of his controversy lately has been his relationship with like, rfk. He voted to confirm rfk, and then he's come out against a lot of the stuff that's happening over there.

[Steven Rinella]

But I appreciate the ma. I appreciate his maverick nonpartisan streak. I appreciate it, the kind of going your own way and not taking. Not taking, you know, not listening to the boss man for everything. You do. I appreciate that. But this is dumb. Yeah, he knows it's dumb.

[Randall Williams]

And it's. And a lot of the guys who are demonstrating this nonpartisan, not bowing to the boss behavior, the ones that are out of a job in their primary. So big picture, like, you know, we have the Forest service overhaul. They're going to be closing research stations in Louisiana. The roadless rule, as I said, is there's now a House bill to rescind it.

[Ryan Callahan]

Not only rescind it, but make it mandatory that we, the people, the taxpayer, pay for new roads.

[Randall Williams]

Yep, yep. So just there's. There's arrows coming at the national forest from all sides right now.

[Yanni Smilgis]

One of the last things I did last night, it was probably 10pm I called Zinky and Downing left him a message about that.

[Ryan Callahan]

Nice.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Because I received yet another email from bha. I was like, all right, I'm doing it.

[Randall Williams]

Shouldn't be checking your phone all night. Night.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Honest.

[Randall Williams]

It's bad for your sleep.

[Yanni Smilgis]

I don't.

[Ryan Callahan]

Working.

[Randall Williams]

Okay.

[Brody Leven]

I don't understand what his incentive is to do anything now. Like, you know.

[Steven Rinella]

No, I think this will. Yeah, this will go away. Still fun to talk about. Then we can do a good news story when he. When it doesn't go anywhere.

[Randall Williams]

That's true. That's true.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Okay. Reporting from the Michigan deer desk. We're really bouncing around the country today.

[Steven Rinella]

That's intentional.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Good.

[Randall Williams]

It's a programming decision.

[Yanni Smilgis]

This one, I figure is gonna be a real challenge because you and I have so much attachment, nostalgia to this story that.

[Steven Rinella]

Not me. I grew up north of the line, dude.

[Yanni Smilgis]

I know. Oh, exactly. Which is why I feel like you're gonna have to weigh in your side. So big news out of Mexican. It's becoming a one buck state and has eliminated. Eliminated their southern shotgun zone, meaning the entire state is now open to rifle use for deer hunting. So for those that you don't know, you can throw up our little map there. And this. I took this from Onyx. Thanks, guys. But zone one, there's the upper peninsula. And you could use a rifle up there. When I was a kid in the lower peninsula, you could use a rifle above that line that cut and cuts through the middle where Steve was. Below that line, we had to use shotguns. Reason being, when I, when I grew up, the reason being for that they always told us is because it's a highly, more highly populated area. And if you had a real rifle, high powered rifle, and you're shooting at deer, you're more likely to shoot out of the woods across the county road and into someone's club.

[Brody Leven]

We got the same rule right here in the valley.

[Steven Rinella]

Put a hole through old lady burns his house or something, you know.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Yeah. I asked Brent Rudolph, who's Michigan's deer, elk and moose management specialist.

[Steven Rinella]

Moment their deer specialist is named Rudolph.

[Yanni Smilgis]

I know I didn't bring that up with him, but I would have a

[Steven Rinella]

very hard time not bringing that up. But

[Yanni Smilgis]

I didn't want to take too much of his time.

[Steven Rinella]

Even if I didn't bring it up, I still would have said, huh, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

He always knows, you know, when he has a good idea.

[Phil Monahan]

Better name than Heffa Finger to be a deer biologist.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Ouch, ouch, ouch.

[Seth Morris]

Here comes an email.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Not only was it for the safety thing, but that rule was implemented back when we didn't have as many deer.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, I didn't know that. That was part of the motivation.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Yeah. So part of the motivation was like, hey, so that every deer that comes out on the, you know, back crop field doesn't get whacked. Let's limit weapons a little bit so that you're. Back then we were limited to 50 yards. Now shotgun shoot, 200 yards.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, they went straight wall cartridges.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Right. And so recently again a few, a few years ago, Michigan along with other states too allowed straight walled cartridges, which is like inching towards going to high powered. But not quite. Again, Brent told me, he's like, yeah, we actually don't have data that proves that using high powered rifle cartridges is any less safe than, than using the shotguns. So as a move to.

[Steven Rinella]

But it's kind of like, you know, like Bob Dylan said, I don't need a weatherman to tell what way the wind blows. Meaning you might not have data, but come on.

[Brody Leven]

Plus I think you can also make rules like, come on. To keep the people that aren't hunters. Like to kind of pacify them, be like, sure.

[Steven Rinella]

But of course it does because imagine the extreme. Imagine you made an infinity, an infinity round that just went around the world and around the world and around the world. It's going to hit something. Yeah.

[Randall Williams]

I don't think it'd make it around the world once.

[Steven Rinella]

No, I think it hit something.

[Randall Williams]

Well, it hit a bush.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Yanni Smilgis]

So back then they didn't want to kill, clip a twig people or too many deer.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Now Michigan is. We've covered this. I think it was, was it last year, two years ago that they wrote a letter to Michigan's sports people and said, folks, you guys have to kill does. They didn't do It. So this is a step towards making it easier. They're hoping it's small, incremental, but a way to like less barriers. Right. You don't have to have another, you know, a shotgun that shoots slugs to shoot a deer.

[Steven Rinella]

Right.

[Yanni Smilgis]

You just have your.30 06. Because you hunt somewhere where you can use that. Well, no.

[Brody Leven]

All those people are going to have to go out and buy rifles now.

[Steven Rinella]

I got it. I got a text message from guys the other morning.

[Ryan Callahan]

Pump up that PR excited.

[Steven Rinella]

He said he's getting out the old 303006 and he says, you've never seen a run on ammo like you're gonna see now.

[Ryan Callahan]

That's amazing.

[Yanni Smilgis]

He's right. He's right. So, yeah, I think that, that that's. It's a good thing. It's like simplifying the whole thing.

[Steven Rinella]

I support it. I support it. Yeah. But what's funny about it is because I always thought it was a safety issue. And it's not like there's less houses now than when I was a kid.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Definitely not.

[Steven Rinella]

So. But hearing that it was an efficacy issue as well. Trying to reduce efficacy. I see. But I also think that it felt unnecessary. Yeah.

[Yanni Smilgis]

It was a big thing for me when we then go over to hunt. Wisconsin, when I used to actually get to hunt with a bolt action rifle, is like, it was very exciting.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Brody Leven]

That's.

[Randall Williams]

That's why we drove to Kentucky.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Right. Because you guys were a shotgun state. Yeah. Ohio is going to come back into my reporting here shortly for the second part. Lovely. So if you guys don't have any further questions about being able to use a rifle across the state of Michigan, I'll move on.

[Steven Rinella]

No. If you're in southern. Here's the. If you're in southern Michigan, it's game on this fall.

[Brody Leven]

What's the reception?

[Steven Rinella]

It could be way across old lady burns his field. And you can still shoot.

[Randall Williams]

I like to move forward to the part about Ohio.

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, I think valid info here too. Just it's not particular to this, but it is in the context of Michigan. Michigan is one of the states where big game hunting is on the decline. Fewer licensed deer hunters or fewer people hunting deer.

[Phil Monahan]

I would like to know how Mitch Rampala feels about this.

[Steven Rinella]

I'm not going to tell you.

[Phil Monahan]

Is he zone two or zone three?

[Yanni Smilgis]

He's zone two.

[Steven Rinella]

He's zone two.

[Phil Monahan]

Okay.

[Steven Rinella]

You know what I heard, I heard a rumor the other day. Now I don't want to just.

[Ryan Callahan]

I'll save it.

[Steven Rinella]

I'll save it. I'm not trafficking in rumors, dude.

[Phil Monahan]

Yeah.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Okay. Another big change. This one's gonna go into effect in 2027. Some folks thought it was going to go in effect this year. It's not the case in 2027. Michigan is going to a one buck limit.

[Steven Rinella]

Just capped one buck.

[Yanni Smilgis]

One buck.

[Steven Rinella]

How many bucks you allowed there now? Two. Oh yeah. It's a decline.

[Yanni Smilgis]

They're offering up two different licenses. This is for the Lower Peninsula. The. The Upper Peninsula. Nothing changes. I didn't write down the details of that but whatever the rules were up there, they're staying the same. Lower Peninsula though. Now you can buy if you are so cheap that you can only afford a single deer license. You can buy. You can buy one. That's a buck only tag and it's for one antler deer with an antler point restriction of three points on one side. The other license that they're offering for the Lower Peninsula is a combo and that's one antler deer of any size and one antlerless deer. They're hoping that. And this is definitely 100% rent set. It's like it helps revenue that they will buy the more expensive combo in the. Because they want to have that option to not have to shoot an antler point restricted buck. Yeah. Again this came about. There's, there's. There was a surge of. Of the local hunting community and. And again they. Every people that I talked to, mostly Mark Canyon and Brent Rudolph feel like it's a small subset of the hunting community but like the quality deer management. More people that are into shooting bucks have been like raising a stink about like hey, like let's change something so we can get a better, you know, age class of bucks rolling around in Michigan. And this was proposed other states around like Ohio, Indiana can. It was Kentucky one too. Can't remember now but definitely Ohio and Indiana have gone that way and it has helped their. Their.

[Brody Leven]

Well Pennsylvania one for antler point restrictions.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Right. So they went antler point restrictions.

[Brody Leven]

I don't.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Are they at one buck state too? Yeah. And so say there a lot, man. Mark was telling me that there that guy that started in with the antler point restrictions like that guy had to get out of wildlife management.

[Brody Leven]

He got run out of because we

[Steven Rinella]

were trying to get him on the show but I don't know what happened to him.

[Brody Leven]

He was a professor at Penn State when I was there.

[Steven Rinella]

We were trying to get him on the show.

[Yanni Smilgis]

The threats and everything was Gary.

[Ryan Callahan]

Gary.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Gary Selena Zito recommended. Recommended.

[Seth Morris]

His relative works for wild sheep Foundation.

[Brody Leven]

But he, like, turned things around in Pennsylvania.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Oh, big time. I think now he's like, he's, he's. They applaud his, his work and his, his ideas.

[Randall Williams]

Gary.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

What.

[Steven Rinella]

What. What do you say? He didn't want to do it until just a little bit later.

[Brody Leven]

I think he may have been good for Gary.

[Steven Rinella]

He may have ended up poaching now

[Brody Leven]

working in the state of Wisconsin after.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Oh, okay.

[Brody Leven]

I think there you go.

[Seth Morris]

I think so. Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

No job, is that it?

[Yanni Smilgis]

No.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, no.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Well, here's the deal. It's like, why you ask? Why? Like, why would the Michigan DNR really care about that? Right. Like, that's not necessarily so. They have a small group of people that are like, hey, we want, you know, better bucks.

[Seth Morris]

Yeah.

[Yanni Smilgis]

And like, we all know those. These wildlife agencies have to not only manage the wildlife, but they have to manage the people that enjoy the wildlife. Right. In the, in the name of managing the wildlife, DNR wants Michigan hunters to shoot does bad. So again, this is a way. They're hoping that like the guys that used to just shoot the first buck that they saw are now and, and then hold out for like the big buck and never shoot a doe.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Now they're hoping that if you're in the field, you only have one buck tag and you like to shoot deer. You like to have. You like to have a couple of deer in the freezer that's going. This is going to hopefully promote antlerless harvest.

[Steven Rinella]

I don't buy it.

[Yanni Smilgis]

I don't. Yeah, again, they don't.

[Steven Rinella]

Sure. They. That's fine.

[Yanni Smilgis]

I don't think it'll work. Everybody's clear that if it's anything, it's going to be incremental. The, the, the last thing I'll leave you with. And this is interesting because I hadn't really thought about this and Brent said this is that if they don't, Michigan's hunters don't start killing does. Hunting as a management tool might become archaic and something else. They will find another way to manage this deer population if it can't be done through hunters.

[Steven Rinella]

Understood.

[Yanni Smilgis]

So it's like a real, it's a. I think it's a serious, serious call out to all hunters around that like

[Steven Rinella]

some, some industry is going to come in and be like, we'll take it from here, boys.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, right.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Yeah.

[Brody Leven]

Yeah.

[Yanni Smilgis]

And then the antis can use it as like, hey, you guys weren't doing your job that you guys always said you're going to do. You guys are always, you Know, talking about being, you know, balance of nature. Exactly. And all that. I'd be.

[Ryan Callahan]

I'd use it as an incentive just to have the ability to be like, this is going to be nothing but bratwurst. Be like, bang dough off to the processor. Bratwurst. This thing's going to be nothing but sandwich meat. Here we go.

[Steven Rinella]

You know what I'd do if I wanted to increase harvest is I'd have like those, you know, those little sausage making kits, the dry seasoning kit that comes stapled to your deer tank. So when you're sitting there and you're blind, you just got your hand in your pocket, you're feeling that brat seasoning.

[Brody Leven]

You just got to wonder why they don't. Why that earn a buck thing.

[Steven Rinella]

Deeply unpopular.

[Brody Leven]

I know, but they're actually,

[Yanni Smilgis]

they're. They're doing a test in a certain part of the southern peninsula where there is going to be an earn a buck for a second buck tag.

[Steven Rinella]

Wisconsin got into earn a buck and it proved unpopular with. With, you know, not everybody. But yeah, was. Was unpopular with a.

[Yanni Smilgis]

The masses.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, the masses.

[Ryan Callahan]

There's a lot of economic drivers.

[Seth Morris]

Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

Like most people are making it out for a weekend at. At most. And could this incentivize people to go out and get a dough one weekend and then try to find a buck another weekend? They're spending more money around the counties.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Yanni Smilgis]

It's just surprising to me because in. In our. My camp where I grew up hunting in Michigan, like we pounded does. And so to know that only 20

[Steven Rinella]

brag about getting a doe tag.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

So the only Steve got a doe tag.

[Yanni Smilgis]

Only 20 of Michigan hunters will kill a doe. It's like, who are these guys?

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, it was crooked as day is long. But we didn't know about that kind of thing at the time. You know, everybody put their mom in for a doge.

[Brody Leven]

Oh, yes. That was a thing in Pennsylvania.

[Steven Rinella]

Did you hear I got a doe tag. Want to be my mom?

[Yanni Smilgis]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

I guided some Michigan hunters for black bear in Idaho. Spring black bear gajillion years ago. And they're a mule deer does running across the road. And they were like yanking on the door handles, being like, camp me, camp meat. And I couldn't. I was, you know, I was like, it's spring. And I'm like, I couldn't quite. They were, you know, camp meat. It's like you just shoot a dove to have a camp.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, man, he's talking about that. You go to deer camp, first thing you do is shoot a doe like pre. Like a pre season just to get

[Ryan Callahan]

things started the right way.

[Steven Rinella]

All right, everybody please subscribe to the meat eater podcast YouTube channel. Okay? If you want more news and subscribe to our show. Wherever you listen to podcasts that way it pops right up when you turn your phone on. Thanks for listening, Sam. Hunting demands preparation, persistence and gear that will not quit on you. That is why I wear First Light. This isn't about hype. It's about no compromise gear. Built to perform, built to last. Whether it's their industry leading merino wool keeping me comfortable through the cold and the hot or their durable outerwear shrugging off the elements, First Light is built to help you go farther and stay longer. Designed by hunters for hunters with a deep commitment to conservation and land access. No shortcuts, no excuses. Just gear you can count on. Head to firstlight. Com. That's F I R S T L I T E Com. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.