Ep. 638: If You Hunt or Fish on BLM Land, You Better Listen Up

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast - Episode 638: "If You Hunt or Fish on BLM Land, You Better Listen Up"

Host: Steven Rinella
Release Date: December 16, 2024
Guests: Cal (Legal Expert), Randall (National Wildlife Federation), Brad Brooks (Entrepreneur, 406Boneworks), Yanni
Focus: Utah's lawsuit against the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and its potential implications on public lands nationwide.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In Episode 638 of The MeatEater Podcast, host Steven Rinella delves into a critical and timely issue affecting hunters and anglers across the United States: the state of Utah's lawsuit challenging federal ownership of Bureau of Land Management (BLM) lands. This episode features insightful discussions with legal experts, conservationists, and entrepreneurs who explore the legal, political, and ecological ramifications of this significant legal battle.

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2. Overview of Utah's Lawsuit Against BLM Land

[33:43] Brooklyn:
"This would all fall under Sagebrush rebellion... the state of Utah kicked it off with this idea that really falls back to like, the federal government can't own land."

Utah has initiated a lawsuit claiming that the federal government lacks constitutional authority to retain ownership of BLM-managed lands within the state. The lawsuit targets approximately 18.5 million acres, arguing for the divestiture and sale of these public lands back to the state for economic development and resource exploitation.

---

3. Legal Arguments and Implications

[36:07] Steve Rinella:
"So the lawsuit that Utah's or the Utah is fought, the state of Utah is filing a lawsuit saying BLM land is somehow, they don't have the authority to own it, therefore it should belong to the states. They're focused particularly on BLM. Is this true?"

[39:11] Cal:
"Under Article 10 of the Constitution, which states that all powers not expressly articulated are reserved to the states. Utah argues that the federal government's authority to own land is limited to specific areas like military installations and Washington, D.C., as per the enclave clause."

The legal team from Utah is attempting to bypass lower courts by petitioning the United States Supreme Court to accept original jurisdiction over the case—a rare and challenging move. Cal, a seasoned legal expert, explains that for the Supreme Court to hear a case under original jurisdiction, it must present significant constitutional questions, which Utah contends it does regarding land ownership.

---

4. Political Strategies and PR Campaigns

[60:30] Cal:
"They are investing in a PR campaign nationally. They're running ads in places like the Washington Post and during national events to sway public opinion in favor of their lawsuit."

Utah has allocated approximately $20 million toward a comprehensive public relations campaign to garner nationwide support for their legal stance. This strategy aims to sway public opinion, engage stakeholders across various states, and apply pressure on political figures to back their cause.

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5. Potential Outcomes and Impact on Public Lands

[52:30] Cal:
"If the Supreme Court rules in favor of Utah, it could set a precedent affecting all 640 million acres of federal public lands in the United States, not just the 18.5 million acres currently under dispute."

A successful lawsuit by Utah could have sweeping implications, potentially challenging the federal government's ownership and management of vast swathes of public land. This could lead to states across the West initiating similar lawsuits, risking the integrity of national forests, parks, and wildlife refuges.

[83:00] Randall:
"This is personal for me because my business and my passion for the outdoors are deeply tied to public lands. If these lands are sold off, it jeopardizes not just economic interests but also the natural habitats and recreational areas we cherish."

Randall emphasizes the personal and professional stakes involved, highlighting how the loss of public lands would not only impact economic activities like hunting and fishing but also threaten conservation efforts and wildlife habitats.

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6. Public Access and Recreation Concerns

[69:03] Cal:
"Public lands are vital for recreation and conservation. Losing federal management would mean fewer opportunities for hunting, fishing, and outdoor activities that generations depend on."

The guests discuss how federal management of public lands ensures accessible and well-maintained areas for outdoor enthusiasts. Privatization could lead to restricted access, commercialization, and diminished recreational opportunities, fundamentally altering the outdoor experience for millions.

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7. Call to Action and Community Engagement

[125:02] Cal:
"Apathy is not an option. Engage with your local representatives, support conservation organizations, and stay informed about the implications of this lawsuit. Our public lands are at stake, and your voice matters."

In the episode's concluding remarks, guests urge listeners to remain vigilant and proactive in supporting public land conservation. They emphasize the importance of community involvement, contacting lawmakers, and supporting organizations dedicated to preserving these vital lands for future generations.

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8. Closing Thoughts

[135:03] Steve Rinella:
"This isn't just a legal battle; it's a fight to preserve the legacy of our public lands. Whether you're a hunter, angler, or outdoor enthusiast, the outcome of this lawsuit will shape the future of how we interact with and enjoy the natural world."

Steven Rinella encapsulates the episode by highlighting the broader significance of Utah's lawsuit. He underscores that the preservation of public lands transcends individual interests, embodying the collective heritage and environmental sustainability essential for America's future.

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Notable Quotes with Attribution

• Brooklyn [33:43]:
  "This would all fall under Sagebrush rebellion... the state of Utah kicked it off with this idea that really falls back to like, the federal government can't own land."

• Steve Rinella [36:07]:
  "So the lawsuit that Utah's or the Utah is fought, the state of Utah is filing a lawsuit saying BLM land is somehow, they don't have the authority to own it, therefore it should belong to the states. They're focused particularly on BLM. Is this true?"

• Cal [39:11]:
  "Under Article 10 of the Constitution, which states that all powers not expressly articulated are reserved to the states. Utah argues that the federal government's authority to own land is limited to specific areas like military installations and Washington, D.C., as per the enclave clause."

• Cal [60:30]:
  "They are investing in a PR campaign nationally. They're running ads in places like the Washington Post and during national events to sway public opinion in favor of their lawsuit."

• Cal [52:30]:
  "If the Supreme Court rules in favor of Utah, it could set a precedent affecting all 640 million acres of federal public lands in the United States, not just the 18.5 million acres currently under dispute."

• Randall [83:00]:
  "This is personal for me because my business and my passion for the outdoors are deeply tied to public lands. If these lands are sold off, it jeopardizes not just economic interests but also the natural habitats and recreational areas we cherish."

• Cal [69:03]:
  "Public lands are vital for recreation and conservation. Losing federal management would mean fewer opportunities for hunting, fishing, and outdoor activities that generations depend on."

• Cal [125:02]:
  "Apathy is not an option. Engage with your local representatives, support conservation organizations, and stay informed about the implications of this lawsuit. Our public lands are at stake, and your voice matters."

• Steve Rinella [135:03]:
  "This isn't just a legal battle; it's a fight to preserve the legacy of our public lands. Whether you're a hunter, angler, or outdoor enthusiast, the outcome of this lawsuit will shape the future of how we interact with and enjoy the natural world."

---

Conclusion

Episode 638 of The MeatEater Podcast provides a comprehensive exploration of Utah's lawsuit against the Bureau of Land Management, highlighting its potential to redefine public land ownership and management in the United States. Through expert insights and passionate discussions, the episode emphasizes the critical need for community engagement and advocacy to safeguard these lands for future generations. Listeners are encouraged to stay informed, participate in the conversation, and take actionable steps to protect America's invaluable public lands.

Transcript

[Steve Rinella]

What makes Montana Casting Company Rods unique? Well, it is everything you expect from a premium fly rod without the premium price. I'm a big fan of fishing very small streams for big cutthroats with my kids and we ran Montana Casting Company Rods all summer and had a blast with Montana Casting Co. Signature blanks, custom quality components and finishes, Montana test durability and a lifetime warranty covering mishaps and defects. Head to montanacastingco.com meat eater for details on a 20% discount and a chance to win a Warm Springs four way fly rod and I'll point out that I fished one of those all summer. Enter by January 31, 2025 montanacastingco.com Meat I've emailed with the crew at Montana Casting Company. I've texted with them. They are awesome. Meat Eater Radio Live is the newest addition to the Meat Eater Podcast Feed. Every Thursday at 11am Mountain Time, we'll be going live from Meat Eater HQ on the Meat Eater Podcast Network YouTube channel. This one hour variety show will feature call in guests segments and live feedback from the Meat Eater audience. Then on Friday morning, the episode will be available in audio form on the Meat Eater Podcast Feed. So come hang with me, Steve, Yanni, Cal and the rest of the Meater crew every Thursday at 11:00am Mountain Time on the Meater Podcast Network YouTube channel. And remember, it's live so anything can happen.

[Cal]

Well, almost anything.

[Steve Rinella]

This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening. We hunt the Meat Eater Podcast.

[Cal]

You can't predict anything.

[Steve Rinella]

The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for elk, First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light.com f I r s t l I t.com oh for months, all summer. All last summer still. Now I've been working on a new project that I haven't talked about before because it's kind of. It's a little bit. It was secretly, but it's no longer secrety. I did a new show. I'm doing a new show with History Channel which premieres Tuesday, January 28th at 10pm Eastern. Okay, so we filmed eight one hour standalone episodes of a new show called Hunting History with Steven Ranella and we dive into eight what we call outdoor Mysteries. Okay, so the premiere episode has to do with details surrounding the disappearance of the skyjacker DB Cooper. So the only unsolved skyjacking in American history. We Dive into the disappearance of DB Cooper. We're doing an episode on the lost colony of Roanoke. We did an episode on one that was close to home to me is that kind of blows my mind. The first ship, okay, the first ship ever built to operate on the upper Great Lakes was. If you ever heard of a dude named La Salle, like lasalle was the first guy to descend the first European to descend the Mississippi down to the Gulf of Mexico. Well, La Salle built this ship above Niagara Falls, a fur trading vessel, okay, in 1600s. That thing's missing. And what's crazy is there's still people trying to look. A competitive search of people still trying to look for and find his missing ship, which is somewhere in the Great Lakes called the Griffin. Did an episode on that. Did an episode around first humans in North America. So check it out. Hunting History premieres on the history channel at 10pm Eastern on Tuesday, January 28th. Thank you.

[Cal]

Cal.

[Yanni]

If you were. If someone were to ask you.

[Randall]

What.

[Yanni]

Political office Guy Fieri holds, what, what town, what would you say?

[Brooklyn]

Boy, it'd be awesome. If it was like, health inspector.

[Yanni]

No, no. What town? What town?

[Brooklyn]

The contentious language was elected official.

[Randall]

Elected official.

[Steve Rinella]

We all know, guys. It's just. I wasn't even there.

[Brooklyn]

Is he a mayor?

[Yanni]

He's the mayor of Flavortown.

[Steve Rinella]

If he says elected official, he has to admit that it was wrong. How many points did you win by? 1.1.

[Brooklyn]

So, yeah, it was the game.

[Yanni]

I said, if we were to ask what animal is the king of the jungle?

[Steve Rinella]

The elected king of the jungle. I mean, it's.

[Randall]

That's why it's a bad analogy, man. It's not terrible. It's not the same.

[Yanni]

What if.

[Steve Rinella]

Turn the machine on, Phil.

[Brooklyn]

Machines on.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, ladies and gentlemen, now, none of this happens where we start a show and there's already a conversation occurring in media race. In the old days, we would just start. No one even knew when it started. Phil wasn't even born yet. Now we start it, don't we, Phil?

[Brooklyn]

Yeah, that's right.

[Cal]

I think it.

[Steve Rinella]

It introduces a lot of fun energy when I just. You're contradicting what I'm saying. What does.

[Brooklyn]

I think people like when you say, like, turn the machine on, People have.

[Cal]

Sort of an anticipation.

[Brooklyn]

They're anticipating they're in the middle of something.

[Cal]

I want to hear what's going on.

[Steve Rinella]

Moments ago, in this very studio, I wasn't there for it. There was a trivia tournament. In the trivia tournament, the host says, I don't want Randall to say it. Because he. He's like the other side of the fight. Can you do the question, Phil, just for listeners? So, Me Eater trivia. We got a great show coming up for you today, ladies and gentlemen, Me Eater. And Me Eater tribute was just happened here a minute ago. This question was read.

[Brooklyn]

Yes, the. The official wording was rock star chef.

[Cal]

Guy Fieri is an elected government official of what municipality?

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. Randall says, Flavor Tone. Okay. Everybody else has a shit fit because of the word choice. Elected.

[Yanni]

When I think of Guy Fieri, it's.

[Steve Rinella]

Not Fieri for starters. It's Fieri. Like, there's a guy named Eddie. You owe him a fee. Fieri. Really? Yes, that's what he says.

[Brooklyn]

This is the Sicilian coming out and Steve right now.

[Yanni]

Well, when I think of Guy. When I think of Guy, the first thing that comes to mind is his trademarked nickname, the Mayor of Flavortown.

[Steve Rinella]

That's his nickname.

[Yanni]

Yeah. If you pull up his bio on Instagram is the first thing that it says.

[Randall]

So I think a better question would.

[Steve Rinella]

Have been, this is Brad Brooks. Yeah, okay, I was there. Brad Brooks came up from Idaho to talk about this. He's something of a Guy Fieri expert.

[Randall]

A lot of people say that about me, Steve. A better question would have been like, what is his trademark nickname that denotes a sort of.

[Steve Rinella]

Yes. Governmental position?

[Yanni]

But I think that would have been too obvious.

[Steve Rinella]

I thought this was a fun.

[Yanni]

This is a fun question.

[Steve Rinella]

It's not fun nothing.

[Brooklyn]

What if you said, no one's place is a state of mind where fun and food meet in perfect harmony?

[Steve Rinella]

And he's the. And he's the. And what position does he hold in this? Like, would you say that if you. If you said, like, pick. Okay, like, Jimmy Buffett is the elected official of what municipality? I'd be thinking, well, did he get into politics? I would be thinking, oh, Margaritaville.

[Yanni]

I mean, if he's known as the mayor of Margaritaville.

[Brooklyn]

But it's not an elected position. Like, okay, the Guy Fieri's downtown Flavor Town.

[Yanni]

It's Tongue in Cheek.

[Brooklyn]

Not in Montana, is in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee, and a bunch of other locations. Is there some sort of election that's.

[Steve Rinella]

Going on and was it rigged?

[Yanni]

I think Spencer.

[Brooklyn]

I think Spencer, the incumbent is that the mayor of Spencer made.

[Yanni]

He made a clumsy attempt to not use the word mayor in the question.

[Steve Rinella]

Here's where the problem comes up to me. And we'll get on with the show eventually, right? Just punt it. Cringe. Let's just punt the episode and we'll stay on this for Two hours. The problem for me winds up being that he used such formal language. And if I had been in the room, I would have gotten it wrong, because I would have been thinking, what the hell town is he from? And maybe he was elected.

[Yanni]

So that's what I said to. That's what I said in the moment. I said, because Spencer used important sounding words. You guys thought it was a real thing.

[Randall]

I thought he was like an honorary doctorate, like some town had given him, like an honorary mayoral position. You know, that's what I thought.

[Brad Brooks]

That's clever.

[Steve Rinella]

And then what'd you write down?

[Randall]

Atlantic City.

[Steve Rinella]

Why that?

[Randall]

I just can. I'll be honest. Pulled it out of my ass. I was just like, east coast guy.

[Steve Rinella]

He reached into his butt in Atlantic City, was in there.

[Yanni]

Well, I. I initially thought Flavortown, because that's the only word I associate with Guy Fieri. And then I took 10 seconds to think about, and I thought, oh, yeah, he's the mayor of Flavortown. Now this makes sense.

[Steve Rinella]

I would have had. You know that there's a sports expression about leaving it all on the field.

[Yanni]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

I'd left it all on this mic. If I'd have been in that room.

[Yanni]

I think everybody in the room in the moment recognized that that would have been the case. And it's good that you weren't there, because there was quite a stink in your absence. I'd be worried for Spencer's well being had you been in the room and within his reach.

[Randall]

Giannis almost quit.

[Yanni]

Yeah, he almost walked out.

[Randall]

He almost walked out.

[Brad Brooks]

Wow.

[Steve Rinella]

Got that.

[Randall]

He.

[Steve Rinella]

When I said I would have done that with him, like a little protest, I would have done that with him.

[Brooklyn]

When I set super early alarms for turkey season, I name them, and often it's like Turkey Town, usa, Goblerville. Right. And so now I'm going to be like, now who would be the elected official of Goblerville?

[Steve Rinella]

I always. You know when you're doing a protest and you walk out, do you say, hell, no, we will go?

[Brooklyn]

I think so.

[Steve Rinella]

I could picture a protest where you're not going to leave, but a protest where you leave. What you chant. I don't.

[Yanni]

It depends on what you're leaving. Like, if you're leaving an airplane that's going to take you somewhere, or a bus, you know, we will go. If you march off of a. A vehicle that's about to move you, I think the we won't go still holds.

[Steve Rinella]

That's true. Because it's leaving.

[Yanni]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Brooklyn House business. Ben, man, we're getting I'm starting the actual show now. Phil, if you didn't like any of that, you can start the machine now.

[Brooklyn]

It's all staying in.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, Brooklyn's here. The second time you've been on the show, introduce yourself. Brooklyn.

[Brad Brooks]

What do you want me to say?

[Steve Rinella]

Do you like Brooklyn or Brook better?

[Brad Brooks]

Doesn't matter.

[Steve Rinella]

Doesn't matter. Where's your new job at, though? You got a part time job. You're working down at the meat eater flagship store. Do you like working down there?

[Brad Brooks]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

You do. Do you field a lot of dumb questions when you're down there or how do you rate the clientele?

[Brooklyn]

What's the hot gossip down there?

[Brad Brooks]

I'm not really sure, to be honest.

[Cal]

She stays.

[Brad Brooks]

A lot of people think it's a restaurant.

[Steve Rinella]

Is that right?

[Brad Brooks]

Yeah. Like, they'll walk in, they'll be like.

[Steve Rinella]

I have a 5:00 reservation.

[Brad Brooks]

Well, they'll like walk in and they just kind of like stand at the front and just like stare and then they'll just walk out.

[Brooklyn]

Next time go, are you ready to be seated? And then just walk them back to the TV and back.

[Steve Rinella]

You don't try to sell them when that happens? You don't try to sell them something real quick?

[Brad Brooks]

No. Because you just kind of like. It happens in like a span of 10 seconds, if that.

[Steve Rinella]

So you can tell, like, that person didn't know what they were coming.

[Brad Brooks]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So when you're down there, do you engage with the customers?

[Brad Brooks]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Yanni]

Someone was across the street and overheard a passerby saying, I bet that place has good steaks.

[Steve Rinella]

Depends. They do. So how many hours you working down there?

[Brad Brooks]

Just a couple days a week. I'm not sure. Hour wise.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. And then you're still running your school cleaning business.

[Brad Brooks]

Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

And that you've been on the show before about your school cleaning business?

[Brad Brooks]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Here you have my daughter's buck from this year.

[Brad Brooks]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Impeccably clean. Can I take a look?

[Brad Brooks]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

In fact, Brooklyn was set to come on the show a week ago and didn't do it.

[Brad Brooks]

Because she's a perfectionist.

[Steve Rinella]

Because she was. Is too much, perhaps too much of a perfectionist and didn't want to come down because it wasn't ready yet. It's not overboiled, I can tell you that.

[Brooklyn]

No obvious residue sticking to it. No smell.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, he had a. He had a funky tooth.

[Yanni]

I saw that.

[Steve Rinella]

It's not like all crumbly from getting overboiled. Beautifully bleached. You didn't bleach way the hell up the antler.

[Brad Brooks]

No, no, I hate doing that.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, you didn't make it that. This is all crumbly and nasty. It looks perfect.

[Brad Brooks]

Thank you.

[Steve Rinella]

Are you getting much business for your school cleaning business?

[Brad Brooks]

Yeah, I am really busy.

[Steve Rinella]

You're real busy. This is the busy time of year.

[Brad Brooks]

Yeah, my garage is way overstuffed.

[Steve Rinella]

You got a lot of work.

[Brad Brooks]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Is it bad that you're here because you don't want more work or are you always looking for more work?

[Brad Brooks]

No, I'm always looking for more.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, so tell people how they come and find you to bring you a skull. You should talk about your pricing a little bit, too, just so people know. Or don't you want to get into.

[Brad Brooks]

That for just as deer? Just standard €125 elk 165. That's just basic antelope is same as deer. 125.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay.

[Brad Brooks]

You can. I'm on Instagram at 406boneworks. Or I think the. If you go to the meat eater store, I have a. A few flyer down there.

[Steve Rinella]

I saw that flyer in the window. I was dropping off some ammo there today and saw the flyer.

[Brad Brooks]

Were you?

[Steve Rinella]

That was a good idea.

[Brad Brooks]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And then people can send it to you.

[Brooklyn]

Yeah.

[Brad Brooks]

You can just message me and I'll tell you where to drop it off.

[Steve Rinella]

Yep. We're gonna pass this around and we're gonna do a thing you can. You know, Nate, that we work with, that pointed out to me that 10, 4 isn't a thing.

[Brad Brooks]

Oh.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, no, no. Yeah, sorry.

[Brad Brooks]

Over and over now.

[Steve Rinella]

Have you been all your whole life heard people say over and out?

[Randall]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

You can't say over and out.

[Randall]

Wait, why not?

[Steve Rinella]

It's because you're contradicting yourself. Over means it's your turn to talk. Out means we're done. So he's sort of like. It's sort of like saying, what do you think, Bob? I'm out.

[Brad Brooks]

You can talk to yourself.

[Randall]

It's like the old, like.

[Steve Rinella]

No, he's out of the military, okay? He said, if you can make this correction and broadcast it to the world, ham radio operators and Bradley Fighting Vehicle people will forever thank you. You do not say over and out. You just say over, over or out.

[Cal]

What about him? Protest if you.

[Yanni]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Because he caught me saying over now. He's like, over. Like you're saying. Like I say, what's your phone number? What's the name of your company? Brooke. Over. No, you say you gotta say something. I can't see you because we're on the radio.

[Brad Brooks]

A 406 bone works. Over.

[Brooklyn]

Huh?

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, click.

[Brooklyn]

Yep.

[Randall]

Hey, Brooke, can I say I think you're. I think you should charge more for your work right here. This is like good.

[Steve Rinella]

It's not your turn to comment. Yeah.

[Randall]

Oh, okay.

[Brad Brooks]

He didn't say over to you yet.

[Randall]

Oh, I got you.

[Steve Rinella]

Nate came to me and said. He also came to me today to say this. You know, I like to do 1 to 10 rate things on a 1 to 10. He says it's a lot better to go negative 5 to 5 because he go a 1 sort of leaves us like N. Right. How was the restaurant? A one Picture that. It's a negative five.

[Brad Brooks]

Yeah, that's good.

[Steve Rinella]

So he's like, don't do one to ten. Negative five to five. So we're going to pass this around. You're going to assess the work.

[Randall]

Negative five to five.

[Yanni]

Yeah. Brad, I'd also hold that comment. I have a few skulls that I plan on.

[Steve Rinella]

Dropping off after a respectable. After a respectable period of time for Randall to submit his specimens, he thinks that a price increase might be in order. Yeah.

[Brad Brooks]

I've got a question for you, Brooke. About. So I was texting with you a little bit when I was like trying to boil this coyote skull. And anyway I definitely over boiled it and the teeth fell out and so I've got a second one to do. I tried doing it like a couple of times. Yeah, it just. I don't know.

[Steve Rinella]

There's.

[Brad Brooks]

So I've got a second one I can work with, but with the first one when I was trying to clean out the nostrils, I like jammed a chopstick in there and I probably shouldn't have done that because there's like that really cool. I don't know, what do you call it? Like filament type stuff that's delicate.

[Steve Rinella]

Nasal. Like what do you call them?

[Brad Brooks]

I just call it nasal nose curls or nasal cavity. Like what would you. What would you do for like a coyote? Would you like poke those out because they're so delicate or. No. So I was actually after my last podcast, a guy had emailed me and he did like a bobcat or something and he told me to. For those smaller skulls to use a water pick because it's like a mini pressure washer. I have one of those. And so that's what I do on dental. Bear to I for Spencer. Actually, I just finished a muskrat, so that's. Muskrat's the smallest I've done, but it works from bear to muscat.

[Steve Rinella]

What are you charging him for, a muskrat?

[Brad Brooks]

I can't remember because I've never done 30 bucks. I think it was like 40 maybe.

[Randall]

Good enough.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, so we're gonna go around the room for a score.

[Randall]

Uh, I give you a four. Out of we're. Same scale, negative five to five. Yeah, I give you a four mostly.

[Steve Rinella]

Same as a nine.

[Randall]

Yeah, that and then part of that. I'll just say that like I've done. I haven't done enough taxidermy to know what a, what a five would look like. But I think that's really good and really clean. The teeth aren't loose. The nasal cavity looks really in good shape. Like it's really good, but you gotta have something to work for, so can't be perfect.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. How old are you?

[Brad Brooks]

Just turn 18.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. So if you had a 5, you.

[Randall]

Got nothing else meaning a 10.

[Cal]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

What the hell would you wake up for tomorrow?

[Brad Brooks]

True, true.

[Randall]

Now you know what it's like to be one of my kids.

[Cal]

I'm just gonna totally disagree. I think it's a five. I think we should tell everybody it's a five. And I agree with Brad. You should be charging more.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, listen, I'm into her for 124. I guess it's not gonna change. You're not gonna. Proactively, you're not gonna like retroactively.

[Cal]

I, I paid like 150 bucks or 160 bucks for an elk in 2019. And inflation's been rampant. That's all we've heard about, right?

[Steve Rinella]

This is toppling administrations.

[Cal]

It's toppling. So you should be raising your prices by 30, 40%. And you turn that around in a week, there should be an expected rate.

[Steve Rinella]

The normal thing is they're like. You know, my dad used to have a joke, you know, I don't know what hell it went. Like you call the guy that's fixing your shoes and it's been like three years. Oh, I'm just finishing them up right now.

[Yanni]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, but the turnaround time is amazing.

[Brad Brooks]

Yeah, I try to keep it. I mean like I'm a hunter myself and so I know like, you want your stuff back, you want your head back. That and I don't like all of the heads stinking in my garage. So I'm gonna try and get them done as fast as I can so they don't stink up my garage.

[Steve Rinella]

This is your parents garage too, right? How do they think about this little business? Eh, they just, they give it a.

[Brad Brooks]

Negative probably they don't mind it. They kind of think it's funny. I don't know. I recently started getting into more tanning and so I have a lot of hides and I had freezer, all my hides stuffed in the freezer. So I recently had to buy my own freezer cuz I didn't like it in the freezer.

[Randall]

So your overhead's going up to me.

[Brad Brooks]

Within the coming years. They will. Yeah. Everyone tells me too.

[Randall]

Okay.

[Cal]

And expedited pricing, turn around a week.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, thought about that. Charging for the promptness.

[Brad Brooks]

That's smart.

[Yanni]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

If you said to me, let's say you stick stuck with current pricing and you'd said to me like, it's 125 bucks, expedited is 135. You're just like making up. It could have been more. I'd be like, yeah, I'll do that.

[Yanni]

Mm.

[Brad Brooks]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And you don't even have to tell them that you would have done it just as fast no matter what.

[Brad Brooks]

True.

[Steve Rinella]

Then the guy that doesn't pay for it, he's going to think, my God, imagine if I had paid for it, how fast it would have been.

[Brad Brooks]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Randall.

[Yanni]

Yeah. I mean, I'm of mixed opinion here. I initially, my initial reaction was a 4 because I have a hard time giving a perfect score. You know, I think, I think of these things similar to Brad. You gotta always have room for improvement. But I don't know what I would do, what I would want differently if that were my deer skull. I think it looks fantastic.

[Steve Rinella]

He'd be like, I would have liked the antlers to get bigger.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Randall]

What do you charge for that? How much does that cost?

[Yanni]

Yeah, No, I mean it looks great. It doesn't stink. It's clean, it's bright.

[Steve Rinella]

Mm.

[Yanni]

We should all be so lucky to have a deer that looks like that.

[Steve Rinella]

Damn straight.

[Brad Brooks]

She gets a five from me. I know. She's super detail oriented about it. Hear about it from her mom all the time. She likes picking. Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

What's the business called again?

[Brad Brooks]

406Boneworks.

[Steve Rinella]

I'd call it straight fives.

[Yanni]

Out of and then parentheses.

[Brad Brooks]

You can add 4 and 0 and 6 and be like 11 parentheses.

[Yanni]

That's the top story.

[Steve Rinella]

I'd rather send it to a place that gets all tens. Like. Well, hold on. It started at negative five.

[Brooklyn]

I got a up charge for you.

[Brad Brooks]

Yeah.

[Brooklyn]

Okay. And I think this would revolutionize the world of European mounts is if you go, yeah, for a couple bucks extra, I will apply something. You'll have to figure this Part out to the nose area that your dog will not chew on it. Many, many.

[Randall]

Are you looking at me?

[Yanni]

You get the sour apple spray. You get, like, the sour apple spray.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brooklyn]

Many a good animal has been had its face chewed off before. It can be real pretty.

[Randall]

And I've told you I'm sorry many times about my puppy last year, Ryan.

[Steve Rinella]

That's a good point. This pulls you into chemistry.

[Brad Brooks]

You can try using vinegar.

[Steve Rinella]

You said you got to figure it out. I was patented.

[Yanni]

I always call that the. The unintentional skull plate conversion. Like it rolls off the bookshelf, you know, or a dog gets a hold of it. It's a skull plate now, dude.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, I had one. I had a nice white tail hanging in a area where. Like in a breezeway. And now. And then you get just this insane wind. If. If someone opens. If the garage door is open on one end and someone opens the door on the other end, and that thing has more times. Boom, falling down. And it now is basically like a. It's like it's gotten a lot smaller.

[Brooklyn]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And there's pieces of bone. I come home, you know, and on my desk. Or little chunks of bone.

[Brooklyn]

And there's no point in an antelope Euro mount if the nose is chewed off.

[Yanni]

Yeah.

[Brooklyn]

Like, it's just not. Yeah. There's nothing.

[Steve Rinella]

This is what happened to yours.

[Brooklyn]

I mean, this has had to have happened to your animals.

[Steve Rinella]

I thought you had. It sounds like you guys have some past history.

[Brooklyn]

That was last.

[Randall]

Are you still bitter about this?

[Brooklyn]

No, I'm not. You sound.

[Cal]

It's still.

[Randall]

Because you sound like you're upset about it. So what happened just to clear the air is Ryan shot a very nice buck. I took it home. I had a new puppy, and she got into both our deer, but she chewed more of Ryan's nose than mine.

[Brooklyn]

Yeah. Yeah. The crazy thing is she opened the door where the skulls were, got into the secured area where they were, because, you know, obviously you wouldn't put them someplace where a puppy could get to them.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, of course.

[Brooklyn]

So a very special dog.

[Randall]

You know, I've always said she's smart.

[Steve Rinella]

I remember this happening. Now this is all coming back to me. I remember this happening. I remember hearing about this before.

[Brooklyn]

I feel like it's a very common thing anyway, it would be a great way for you to be like, yeah, your mount's done for a couple extra bucks.

[Steve Rinella]

For 40 bucks, you'll dip it in, like, whatever the hell dogs hate.

[Yanni]

That's what happened to. That's what happened To Chili's First Antelope. Yeah, last year. His. His roommate's dog chewed it up.

[Steve Rinella]

You know what you might put on there? They make this thing for little kids. I didn't know about this. You know if a kid winds up chewing his fingernails too much? Oh, yeah, they make this. You put on his fingernails and they about vomit.

[Brad Brooks]

Really?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, it's bad. So you take. You tell them I need 40 bucks to dog proof it. Put that shit all over it. Unless something tastes it, they don't know. And that dog gets his tongue on that. You got a dog?

[Brad Brooks]

I do.

[Steve Rinella]

Get a bottle of this stuff and swab his tongue with it and see what he does.

[Yanni]

The only thing is my dogs like throwing up just based on the frequency with which they do it. I'm not sure that would be a huge deterrent.

[Steve Rinella]

Try that.

[Brad Brooks]

Will do. I've never heard of this.

[Steve Rinella]

I have a dog. I'll put it on my own dog and I'll report back to you.

[Brad Brooks]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

But she just had surgery, so I'm gonna wait till she feels better. She's very depressed. She's got around with that humiliating Conan. All the things she normally does she can't do. She thinks she's in trouble constantly because, like, she can't do any of the fun stuff she normally does. She's totally depressed. She's probably gonna kill herself later. I'll hit her with that stuff right now. Right now. It'd be like. It'd be like too much. Yeah, it'd be too much. She'd jump off a dog cliff.

[Brad Brooks]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Thanks for coming in. Remind people how to find you. You can stay and hang out, but remind people how to find you through Instagram.

[Brad Brooks]

406Boneworks. Or just word of mouth.

[Cal]

Really?

[Brad Brooks]

People have my phone number and just. I don't want to put my phone number out there.

[Steve Rinella]

No, no, no, don't. But put it out there like this. Go like. Put it out there like, here's how to find me, by God. What is it?

[Brad Brooks]

Through Instagram.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. And they do what?

[Brad Brooks]

Just message me.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. So message Brooke at Instagram. Find her on Instagram at 406.

[Brad Brooks]

Boneworks.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Support young business. American entrepreneurial ship. How do you say that word?

[Randall]

Entrepreneurship.

[Steve Rinella]

Preneurship. American elbow grease.

[Yanni]

Real entrepreneur.

[Steve Rinella]

Straight fives.

[Brad Brooks]

Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

And. And keep. Keep. I hope your business keeps blooming.

[Brad Brooks]

Yeah, for sure.

[Steve Rinella]

This show is sponsored in part by Better Help, and we're coming up into the holiday season. And listen, during the holiday season, like, we're gonna go visit the grandmas. Everything. I love spending time with family. I like to cook for family and friends. It's a great time of year. But I'm not the first one to point out that the holidays can bring on a lot of stress. It can bring up a lot of family dynamics that are hard to deal with. And maybe you will come into or out of the holiday season thinking that you might like to have someone to talk to and try to run through some of the things that are going through your mind. Someone who's impartial. It can help you work through some issues. Well, that's the case. Give BetterHelp a try. Okay, it's entirely online therapy. It's designed to be convenient, flexible, suited to your schedule. You just fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched with a licensed therapist. And you switch therapist anytime for no additional charge. So find some comfort this December throughout the holiday season with BetterHelp visitors. BetterHelp.com Meat Eater Today you get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L P.com Meat Eater what makes Montana casting company Rods unique? Well, it is everything you expect from a premium fly rod without the premium price. I'm a big fan of fishing very small streams for big cutthroats with my kids and we ran Montana Casting Company rods all summer and had a blast with Montana Casting Co. Signature blanks, custom quality components and finishes, Montana test durability and a lifetime warranty covering mishaps and defects. Head to montanacastingco.com Meat Eater for details on a 20% discount and a chance to win a Warm Springs Four Way Fly Rod and I'll point out that I fished one of those all summer. Enter by January 31, 2025 montanacastingco.com meat eater I've emailed with the crew at Montana Casting Co. I've texted with them. They are awesome. Now a lot of you guys are familiar with the old hunting tradition of eating, you know, some organ, the heart or a chunk of liver off the first animal you kill. I had that when I was a little kid and it was a big deal. Organ meats were always prized by frontier people who knew the importance of getting a lot of different minerals and nutrients. And as often is the case, those guys were on to something because organs are among the most nutrient rich foods on the planet and you can get the same benefits your ancestors craved via convenient daily capsules from heart and soil made exclusively from regeneratively raised, grass fed and finished cattle heart and soils. Unique freeze drying process means all those Important nutrients are trapped in, ensuring you experience every one of the benefits of nature's superfood in a clean, convenient, taste free capsule. Find out more at heartandsoil co. And make sure to use code meat eater for 10 off your purchase. That's heartandsoil co. Use the Code Me Eater. There was a thing we were going to talk about, but I kind of want to get to the main subject, Brody. The other day we were doing the live show and we were doing our thing about where you in indefensible law. Like if you could just make a law that's totally indefensible but it would satisfy some pet peeve. Brody was saying, why he's floating. Maybe it should. Maybe it would be illegal to catch and release fish. And we had a laugh about that. And then someone wrote in and says in Germany, in most parts of Germany, it is illegal to catch and release a fish. They don't want you doing it for that reason. If you catch it, eat it. I don't know if this is true. A guy named Lucas says it is.

[Yanni]

With a K. By God, it is.

[Cal]

With a K. It is with a.

[Brooklyn]

K. So you know you can trust it.

[Yanni]

That's German.

[Steve Rinella]

All right. I want the main show. Brad, do you mind introducing yourself for real? And then, Dave, can you introduce yourself? Yeah.

[Randall]

Brad Brooks, founder, CEO of a company called Our Golly. We're back at your hunting gear and equipment company for this. I. For this gig. I also worked stint in public lands too, so.

[Steve Rinella]

And Dave, you've been on the show probably four or five times.

[Cal]

Yeah, not as many as folks like Heffelfinger.

[Steve Rinella]

No, you've probably been on as many as Heffelfinger.

[Cal]

I don't know. He gives me a hard time. It's like he has.

[Steve Rinella]

No, you're right. You're neck and neck with Heffelfinger.

[Yanni]

We might be, but he writes in a lot. But he writes so his presence, he's.

[Steve Rinella]

Better about writing in.

[Cal]

Yeah, yeah. David Williams. I'm based in Wyoming. I work for the National Wildlife Federation. Now I'm our associate vice president of public lands and also oversee our hunting angling advocacy work as well. And prior to that, worked for governor of Wyoming, worked for the Attorney General's office. Did work with our state game and Fish department. Have been an attorney for. I won't say how long. Long enough now.

[Steve Rinella]

Long time.

[Cal]

Yeah, long time.

[Steve Rinella]

Since you were a child?

[Cal]

Feels like it. I mean, look at my pictures. And it looks like it too.

[Steve Rinella]

And of course, Dr. Randall's here and Also joined by Ryan Callahan. And we're here to discuss the subject of great importance that has been brewing in the background. Like, I've been hearing about it and hearing about it and hearing about it. We keep saying we want to do something about it. I kind of thought it would go away. By now, you're probably dying. What we're talking about. Who wants to. Dynamo chart. Dying to know what we're talking about. Who. Who wants to. Who wants to take. Take this and run with it. The high level. What we're talking about.

[Brooklyn]

I'll do the quick overview. So the quick.

[Steve Rinella]

What is happening?

[Brooklyn]

Okay. So this would all fall under Sagebrush rebellion, we could call it. This bubbles up about every 10 years, it seems like. But it's a movement from certain players. This, in this occasion, the state of Utah kicked it off with this idea that really falls back to like, the federal government can't own land. The arguments kind of. They're all variations of that. And the motivation is the fact that the states want more land because they're of great economic value. So the state of Utah currently is suing the federal government over unincorporated lands that belong to the Bureau of Land Management or fall under the management of the Bureau of land Management about 18 and a half million acres in that fall in the state of Utah's borders.

[Steve Rinella]

Eighteen and a half million acres, yes.

[Brooklyn]

Yep. And they are suing the federal government, saying that that land, it's illegal for the BLM to control that land. And the state of Utah wants that land to basically do it as they please. And there's some versions of what that is, but they do use in their lawsuit the word divest, which means sell. So there's. Yeah, basically they're going to hold the acres that are of the greatest economic importance and divest the rest, which would be sell off the rest of those public acres. And then kind of the ball of wax grows from there as far as what the implications of this lawsuit could be. But if the federal government can't maintain and own Bureau of Land Management land, what does that mean for U.S. forest Service land Bureau of Reclamation and on down the line.

[Steve Rinella]

So the lawsuit that Idaho's or the Utah is fought, the state of Utah is filing a lawsuit saying BLM land is somehow. They don't have the authority to own it, therefore it should belong to the states. They're focused particularly on blm. Is this true?

[Cal]

For now, that's true.

[Steve Rinella]

Why do they feel that BLM land is fundamentally different than any other land management agency?

[Cal]

That's a great Question. You want me to take the first?

[Randall]

You're the lawyer here.

[Steve Rinella]

I'll take. Okay, I'll do that. Why are we talking about Bureau of Land Management land?

[Cal]

That's a great question. It's because that's what they've told us to talk about.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, okay.

[Cal]

Yeah, Right. So here's the way I describe the case to people. First of all, the lawsuit's been filed in front of the United States Supreme Court. Right. But. And they've asked. The state of Utah has asked the United States Supreme Court to accept what they call original jurisdiction, which means in an original jurisdiction case, you bypass federal district court, federal appeals court, you go right to the U.S. supreme Court, and the Supreme Court serves as the trial court.

[Steve Rinella]

How often is that successful?

[Cal]

Well, I can tell you to have.

[Steve Rinella]

Them not defer it down court.

[Cal]

So I can tell you I, I've been involved in a couple. I was. The last one I was involved in was actually a case. The state of Montana sued the state of Wyoming and it was original action number 137 in the history of the country. The 137th original jurisdiction case in the history of the country. That was about 10 years ago. There have been a handful since then. It doesn't happen often. There's a high bar to accept jurisdiction. It's typically state v. State or state versus Federal government. And it can, and it tends to fall on in these instances, on issues of constitutional questions where there's immediate massive economic karma if we don't resolve it right away or some other really high.

[Steve Rinella]

Bar got like, who won the presidency?

[Cal]

That's a pretty high bar.

[Steve Rinella]

Might be like a thing like we're just going to have to take this on.

[Cal]

That's exactly right. So that's the ask, right? And in it, they ask for the Supreme Court to accept jurisdiction. Hear this case and the argument is these 18 and a half million acres of BLM lands, of these unappropriated lands, that it is unconstitutional. They're making a constitutional argument. They're saying it's unconstitutional for the United States to hold land in perpetuity. And this is why it's interesting to me that they focus on 18 and a half million acres. Because what, what they fundamentally arguing is saying, look, the United States is only able to own the land that it's expressly authorized to own under the Constitution they cite. And I'm sorry to get super wonky.

[Steve Rinella]

But they'll get as wonky as you want. Because I was just going to ask, why can't Maryland sue and take the White House.

[Cal]

There you go. You're asking the right question. Right. So under Article 10, which is what states often reference, Article 10 of the Constitution is all of the powers that are not expressly articulated in the Constitution are reserved to the state.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay.

[Cal]

And what Utah says is, look, the express authority to own land for the federal government to own land is only found in one place, in the enclave clause. That's. This is their argument. And in the enclave clause, the only property that the federal government can own are. And I'll just be very general because there's a series of words, but it boils down to military installations and Washington, D.C. and so outside of those two things, the argument from Utah is the federal government cannot own any other land but those lands.

[Steve Rinella]

Military bases in D.C. yeah, effectively.

[Cal]

Right. And so then to then argue that they're limiting their lawsuit to 18 and a half million acres of just BLM is something that I'm. It's like mental gymnastics for me because as the lawyer in me says, you know, I'm looking at facts and law. Right. And I'm saying if it. If their argument is true and it is and it is unconstitutional to own any lands besides military installations in Washington, D.C. then why in the world would they only be entitled to the 18.5 million acres?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Why wouldn't Wyoming make a play for Yellowstone National Park? What a windfall.

[Cal]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

I mean, that'd be like one chunk of public land that, if they took, the state would actually make money off it.

[Cal]

Probably.

[Yanni]

Yeah.

[Cal]

I mean, you'd think so, at least. Tourism alone, dollars alone. Right. But. So that's the thing I like to start off with. I'm a pretty, you know, I'm a pretty measured.

[Steve Rinella]

Too much so.

[Cal]

Yeah, maybe. Maybe so.

[Steve Rinella]

But that's why you get to keep coming back.

[Yanni]

So you just go with a five.

[Cal]

I did go with a five. That was. But it was a measured five.

[Yanni]

It was qualified. Yeah.

[Cal]

It's like there's room for improvement. You could charge more for your services, but your work is so good. It's a five.

[Yanni]

Yeah.

[Cal]

But I. So I'm very measured. But then I look at this and say it's not hyperbolic to say that all 640 million acres are at stake in this. Of public lands in the United States are at stake in this litigation. Because if it is unconstitutional to own lands in perpetuity, then it's unconstitutional to own all lands except those expressly authorized by the Constitution, according to Utah.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Like Gettysburg. Wouldn't Gettysburg be not listed?

[Randall]

Yeah, I think so.

[Steve Rinella]

I Mean what?

[Randall]

It's a national monument. National monument or national historic park.

[Steve Rinella]

Do they give you constitutional authority to own a monument? Probably not, no.

[Randall]

No.

[Brooklyn]

I mean, according to.

[Cal]

According to that lawsuit.

[Randall]

Yeah, according to lawsuit.

[Cal]

I mean, I would argue. Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, no, I'm saying if you, if someone was literally like, I'm not a constitutional scholar, so I don't know if that surprises you, but if you were to look at this, this thing they're pointing to that says what kind of land they could own. I'm just trying to capture the extent of like sort of the bombshell you're dropping to be that not just blm, but you could say the same thing about national parks. You say the same thing about national monuments. You can say the same thing about.

[Cal]

Whatever national forest, National Forests, U.S. fish and Wildlife Service lands, Bureau of Reclamation lands.

[Steve Rinella]

So is there in this suit and you. There's a lot we got to get into here, like other states joining all that. But in this suit, is there any articulation about why we're talking about blm? Like what is it about the Bureau of Land Management that to them seems. That to them seems like riper for exploitation than if they were going after Zion National Park?

[Brooklyn]

I mean, I think it's the unincorporated line. Like how the BLM came to be is it was kind of like all the undesignated land that was left over. So there's like a low hanging fruit type of deal. But also Utah on BLM ground has a real history back and forth of like a lot of bears ears, Grand Staircase Escalante. That is BLM land that then went into a monument status and then was. Went back to non monument status. And that's where you hear like a lot of that. Oh yeah, that is public, but you can't access it type of talk.

[Yanni]

Yeah, I mean the national Forest system as we know it was set aside as forest reserves. Right. Like we've always had. The federal government has always acquired new land through purchase or military conquest basically. Right. But most of the public land system as we know it, those chunks of public land were set aside for a certain purpose. And BLM is essentially what was left over that wasn't either reserved or disposed of. So it's sort of like the accidental.

[Steve Rinella]

Got it.

[Yanni]

Historically speaking, it's sort of like accidentally the federal governments. Because in theory it should have all been disposed of.

[Cal]

Yeah, I mean, if you were going to take the argument why are we here? What is there?

[Brooklyn]

Right.

[Cal]

It's exactly that. We had a system where as states were originally Admitted into the Union, they were required to disavow any claims to lands that were within their borders that were unappropriated lands. And at the time, we're talking in the 1700s here, we're talking at the time unappropriated meaning lands that weren't already in private ownership. The state had to disavow claims to them and it would go to the federal estate. And then the federal government set up a whole series of laws for how they were going to dispose of these lands is the way I describe it. You know, we had things like there were laws that gave land to veterans of wars, early wars. There were, you know, we all know about Homestead Act. There were a series of. Well, and bequeaths to the railroad as they, you know, to connect the east to the west. So they're.

[Steve Rinella]

They're actually like the railroads were compensated.

[Cal]

With land instead of money.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Like you get the land, your tracks on and then checkerboard everything within 20 miles, you get half of it or whatever the hell.

[Cal]

Yeah. So we had this system that ran for, you know, until 1976. Really. And starting in, really, I was going to say 1891. It's really starting in more like 1876, which I think is when Yellowstone was first created. That was sort of the first time that the government said, okay, not this. We're going to try and sell a bunch of stuff, but not this. And then 1891 comes the forest Reserve act and Congress again says there's a lot of economic value to this timber. We're seeing in some places unsustainable timber harvest. We need it for expansion, for home building, rail building. We're going to reserve all these timberlands. Okay. So now we start establishing the national forest. Then we roll into the early part of the century and we have the Antiquities act and we start seeing more monuments and parks created. And we're still having homesteading during this time. And we have the Taylor Grazing act that comes into place into play to deal with how do we manage grazing on some of these lands. But you can still homestead. And then 196 rolls around and we pass the federal Land Planning Management Act. Right. Policy and Management Act. Shoot policy. Thank you. Always mess it up. And I've been in this space for 20 years.

[Brooklyn]

Well, you can't. Bless your heart for avoiding the acronyms.

[Cal]

I try to avoid the acronyms. So 1976 happens and all the land that has not been put into national parks or monuments or wilderness areas or the whole list of the things national wildlife refuges the federal government says they're looking at it, and they're saying there's a lot of value to these lands, too. Nobody was homesteading them. It looked like for the longest time, it was viewed as trash land. But they're starting to realize there's a lot of value here. There's oil and gas resources that are, you know, pretty incredible. There's recreation resources that we're starting to see there's value to. And so they passed this law that.

[Brooklyn]

Was uranium stuff that was pretty scary. Turns out pretty valuable. Yeah.

[Cal]

And so they passed this law that says, once and for all, it's the policy of the federal government to keep this land in the federal estate, and it effectively ends the homesteading. That's when the Homestead act really formally ended. It was 1976, not that long ago. And you can look at that law, and it matches pretty perfectly to when the Sagebrush Rebellion starts to kick off, because this argument is, no, no, you were always supposed to get rid of that land. You were always supposed to get rid of that land, and now you're saying it's the policy of the federal government to only get rid of it in very limited circumstances and in very small amounts. If it goes through this long process, and that's not what we signed up for, you need to be getting rid of it. And so these iterations of this, you know, as Cal was saying, these iterations of the Sagebrush Rebellion started coming around really, in political cycles, like every. Like a sine wave, you know, every 10 years or so.

[Steve Rinella]

So the logic a little bit is, like, it's last in, first out.

[Yanni]

Yeah.

[Randall]

Can I just say, though, like, I want to think it's really important, though, to point out, like, there isn't in most people's mind. And maybe I'm just speaking for myself here, like, an open legal question about whether or not public lands are constitutional. I think there is, like, this assumption that some people have that, like, hey, this has, like, been an open question, and we just want to push for, you know, some clarity on this. Right. Like. Like, I don't want there to be. I don't think it's appropriate or not. I don't want to put words in your mouth here, Dave, but, like, I want to make sure people understand, though, because that what you're not saying, and tell me if I'm wrong here, is that there isn't an open legal question since Flipma passed in 1976 about the.

[Cal]

Constitutionality of BLM lands, with one exception, and it's the exception that Utah is putting out there. So there have been a series of cases that have said under the property clause of the Constitution, the federal government can own land, can manage it, can exclude people, can, can regulate. Take for example, can say this forest. We're not going to hunt on it right now. It's the stuff that's used today when there's a fire and they administratively close it. And you're like, well, can't hunt there this year.

[Steve Rinella]

Right.

[Cal]

The Supreme Court has weighed in. There's a mountain of case law on that. What Utah is arguing is this very narrow piece. They're saying, we agree with that. We're not contesting those cases, but what we're saying is that the court hasn't actually addressed the question of whether they can do that in perpetuity. The argument there. And I'm just putting. I'm just saying what they're claiming to say.

[Steve Rinella]

I know, right.

[Randall]

I'm asking you for your opinion, though.

[Cal]

I'll get to that. But I want to make sure people.

[Steve Rinella]

Understand what you touch. Okay. I really appreciate this because I like to hear people should understand the argument.

[Cal]

Yeah, right, exactly. So the argument is, yes, the federal government has the authority to manage lands as long as it takes to dispose of them. And if it takes 30 years to dispose of them, they can manage them like any other landowner for that 30 years. This is the argument Utah effectively makes. They're just saying the Supreme Court hasn't weighed in on this very narrow issue of can they hold those lands in perpetuity? And that's what the claim is. And I think they, they wrote their complaint that way because it gives them the highest likelihood that a court accepts that the court accepts jurisdiction, or if they don't, because if the court doesn't accept it, Utah will probably turn around and file this case in federal district court in Utah and just go through the normal process. And they're setting it up to hopefully have the Supreme Court accept what's called cert, a petition for cert, which would be when it goes through a normal appeals process, would they accept the appeal and hear the case then? So they're setting up a. What we would call a case of first impression is what they're trying to set up just to increase their chances that the Supreme Court will take the case on a, on a narrow. On a very narrow issue that the court has never weighed in on.

[Steve Rinella]

And to be clear, Utah is trying to set. They're trying to go to the U.S. constitution or. Sorry, they're trying to go to the U.S. supreme Court. So they're not arguing. This is not necessarily about what is going on in Utah, because if the court finds in their favor, it finds in everybody's favor.

[Cal]

That's my argument.

[Steve Rinella]

Other states. Yeah, every other state that has BLM land would be able to be like. Well, that applies to me as well. Why would it. Why would it somehow be specific to Utah?

[Cal]

But I say not just BLM land. This is where I keep having to dive in and say, not just BLM land, all public land.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. So how. How. If you look at like. Like, how many acres of BLM land of, like, how many acres of public BLM land are in Utah? How many acres of BLM public land are in the U.S. in general? Like, what's. What's. If this was to be found true, how many acres of hunting and fishing ground are at risk?

[Cal]

Well, so if you're just doing. On blm, I don't have the exact numbers on me. Maybe somebody else knows about the head. It's. I think it's over 200 million acres. Okay. If you're talking. Does it apply to all lands, federally owned lands that are. That are not military installations or the capital? We're talking 640 million acres. We're talking about one third of the land mass of the country.

[Steve Rinella]

My daughter's Bakir.

[Yanni]

Blm.

[Steve Rinella]

Blm.

[Brooklyn]

Yeah.

[Yanni]

I mean, I think it's like the. It'd be like if you sold some land to your neighbor. Right. And then you went, you know, you wanted to, like, build a driveway or something, and you said, oh, I can do this, because the original transaction is void. Right. And like, it's. Ultimately, if you have to accept the argument for this part, it applies to the whole thing, because what they're arguing is that the federal government cannot possess land.

[Randall]

Sure.

[Yanni]

With these few exceptions. So it's like there's. There's no. I mean, it's. My understanding of it is that if the court were to find that argument compelling, there's no, like, safeguard. The floodgates are open. Right. Like, all of a sudden, that would void the forest reserve system. There's, you know, like.

[Cal]

Yeah. There's nothing in the Constitution.

[Yanni]

There's nothing. Yeah. There's nothing constitutionally different about every other type of federal public land that we know of.

[Cal]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

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[Brooklyn]

Yeah. Unincorporated.

[Cal]

Yeah. Unappropriated. Is the land that they use.

[Steve Rinella]

There was a push where they carved off a chunk of land that they felt was like some level of excess. Public lands. Correct.

[Cal]

Yeah. The lands that hadn't been, in their eyes set aside for some other public purpose, like a national park or a wilderness area or a national conservation area, national forest. Right. The ones that didn't have that specific articulated congressional designation for a specific purpose, they're saying, well, that's what we're. That's what we're after. It's what's left.

[Steve Rinella]

That was the 2014 argument.

[Cal]

That's the same one today.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, so that. That was the. But no, there was a bill.

[Cal]

Oh, yeah, that's right.

[Steve Rinella]

Like. Like it was what. It was like. Sponsored by Jason Chaffetz. Right?

[Randall]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And there was a. How does no one remember what the hell this was? It was like the.

[Brooklyn]

Yeah, yeah, it was. I think it was like the Divesting Public Lands act or something like that.

[Steve Rinella]

But they had a word like excess or.

[Brooklyn]

Yeah. They were trying to identify chunks of ground that weren't all that important to the public and sell those.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. And it was putting it forward as a bill that these would be sold. When I say that this is the same. You're driving toward the same goal. You're just taking different attitudes about it. Like, let's say I really wish. I definitely don't. Let's say I really wanted to get rid of my neighbor. And one year I try where I go back into. You know, I go back into. When he initially did his permitting, did he make any mistakes? I'm like, okay, he didn't make mistakes. I still want to get rid of my neighbor. I'm going to go back into his criminal record. Maybe there's something there.

[Cal]

No.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, I'm going to Is he up on his taxes? Right. Meaning my goal is to get rid of the neighbor. Definitely don't want to do this. My goal is to get rid of the neighbor. I'm just going to keep trying things. Utah has been pursuing this for a long time, right?

[Cal]

That's right.

[Steve Rinella]

Is this a fun. Like, do you feel that this approach is somehow more sound? Is going to have a different result than the other ways in which they've attempted to take the federal public land and make it something that they can sell and privatized?

[Cal]

Here's why it's different.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay.

[Cal]

They've invested. I can't remember. Brad, you know the number.

[Randall]

It's like 20.

[Steve Rinella]

The.

[Randall]

Yeah, I know what you're gonna say. It's about $20 million has been approved of taxpayer dollars, Utah. Taxpayer dollars. $20 million for a PR campaign to support the lawsuit.

[Steve Rinella]

So you. So Utah's tax money is paying their own way toward not having their public lands, correct?

[Cal]

Absolutely, 100%. Although it's a campaign that the ads are about.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, talk about losing control of your tax money. I got a good idea. I'll pay my taxes. Then you take my tax money and make it that I don't have any public lands.

[Brooklyn]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Although they're using kind of a rebranded keep it public campaign, actually.

[Randall]

I mean, you're talking Washington Post ads, podcast ads. Like, there's. I mean, they're going. It's a pretty serious PR campaign.

[Brooklyn]

Yeah.

[Cal]

So they're. That's one thing that's different is they're investing in this. But I argue they're not investing in a PR campaign for the litigation. You don't need a PR campaign. The law is what the law is. You're going to run through the judicial process. Maybe you run a small PR campaign in state to convince your constituents that this is the right legal move to make. But like Brad said, they're running a PR campaign nationally. They're. They're doing like. I don't know if this is 100% true, but I got texts from friends of mine in D.C. during the presidential debate that said I'm seeing ads on my phone and during the debate in my neighborhood about this. Like, it's. It's.

[Steve Rinella]

How do you sell the idea to a guy in D.C. what are you telling him that he's going to care about?

[Cal]

Well, I think you're trying. I think you're trying to do a couple of things. It's who's in D.C. no, I'm saying what do you.

[Steve Rinella]

Let's say. Let's Say you're in Utah, right. And you get campaign money and your cronies and things are in development and other issues. And you guys are looking at all of the land that will never be generating money for you, generating business for you, generating profits for you, generating profits for the state. And it's sitting there. How would, if you were ever going to take a message and bring it to a guy in Illinois, what would you ever tell the guy in Illinois that would make him think, yes, I wish there wasn't a bunch of federal public land in Utah.

[Cal]

So I think it's, it's this, it's the overall political message of the 10th Amendment should matter. And so who are you appealing to in D.C. it's the center of power in the country. It's where, it's where you're your Senate, your House, all of the thousands of staffers that work for them live.

[Yanni]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Like John Roberts is washing his dishes and in the background this ads like subliminally. Yeah.

[Cal]

But not justices.

[Steve Rinella]

And then later the court argues in him and he's like, you know, by.

[Cal]

God, not just the justices, though, remember, you're going to have a senator from Utah that is going to have an extreme amount of power over natural resource issues in this country starting in January. You know Senator Mike Lee.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Cal]

I don't, you know, when we're having this conversation, I don't know what, how it's going to pan out, but he's in line if he wants it to be. The chair of the Senate Natural Resources Committee. Environment. Natural Resources Committee. So he'll have an incredible amount of power on controlling what type of legislation is heard in the Senate by the committee and what gets passed through for votes. He can hold up packages, public lands packages. He can do all sorts of things. So there's an opportunity to, through this.

[Brooklyn]

Campaign and for folks who don't know, Senator Lee has been like very prominent in what, what would be considered like an anti public lands group.

[Steve Rinella]

Like he has been pro anti federally managed public lands.

[Brooklyn]

Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brooklyn]

Yeah.

[Cal]

So it's, I've, I've viewed this lawsuit as they want to, they want to win the lawsuit. Obviously they're going down this route. If they, if it doesn't go to the Supreme Court, they'll likely file in federal district court. Lawsuit buys you time too. Lawsuit creates uncertainty because you don't know what's going to happen in the legal process. And it locks things up and creates time to address whatever your concerns might be. So there's actually sure they want to win the lawsuit. But they also view this as an opportunity to get political outcomes that they want and they know that they have people from their state that are going to be in positions of power. And now we don't know yet what the administration's going to look like, but there might be opportunities to move legislation that could be very favorable to Utah in a new Congress. And so, yeah, you're going to run a PR campaign there to try and influence all those folks. And if you have somebody from Illinois that likes the idea of local control, and that's the message is we don't want a big bloated federal government. This is about local control. The power of the people is best at the most local level. We can be better managers at the most local level. And it's an opportunity to say, this is a way to deal with big government and shrink the government a little bit. And that's the other piece, I think, of this play. There's the legal play, there's the political play. You don't spend $20 million on a, on a legal campaign. You spend $20 million on a long play that includes, you know, changing hearts and minds in a political campaign.

[Brooklyn]

Yeah. And the, as well management. Right. Is the other one which kind of ties in to, to both. But it's, well, who manages land better? Right. And that's something that you've heard over and over and over again is, well, the feds don't manage that as well as the state does. Or everybody knows public land is not managed anywhere near as good as private land. Right. And that's something that we hear over.

[Steve Rinella]

And over again in terms of laying out everybody's like biases and what they're after. And you've done a good job of making, of presenting an argument, you know, even though you're not necessarily here to represent Utah's position.

[Cal]

Not necessarily.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Yanni]

I'm not here, period.

[Steve Rinella]

But you're not here to represent their position, but you're explaining their position.

[Cal]

Trying to explain it.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. And, and I feel, and I'll do the same on my position. Okay. Because this is one of those things where I think that everybody is driving at what they find to be beneficial. I, there's, there's some art, there's some things that happen and it transcends. There's some things that happen in the political sphere and the social sphere where you get into these issues where there's a higher, you know, you're arguing a higher morality. It could be, it could be like a higher Christian morality. It could be a humanitarian Morality, whatever, where you step outside of personal. You step outside of what's good for an individual, right. And you go to like, like, what's good for sort of America, you know, the capital A. This. Like, I. I don't want to present, like, overwhelmingly, like, there's a moral components, but there's also a big part of, like, there's a bunch of people pushing a certain thing they would like to see happen. I find that I'm totally open to the idea that federal land management and having a vast public estate and a bunch of public ground for people to recreate on. I'm open, like, I understand it. It slows economic activity. Lots of stuff slows economic activity, right? Like having Gettysburg. You could build condos and sell them for a ton of money. Having the Gettysburg monument slows economic activity. There's things you could do with that that would be more money than what they're getting out of them. Right. If you divide it up and sold it as condos, it'd be more income than you get from charging people to go to Gettysburg. So we don't make all of our decisions based on what makes the most fiscal sense in the moment. By having public lands, you have places for, like, people to go out and be free. One of the things I like about BLM land is you're kind of, there's no place to be more free than you're on BLM land, you can generally do more stuff. More often, you seldom get where, like, you know, in southeast Alaska, deer season opens on August 1st, but on Tongass National Forest land, it opens August 15th. Stuff like that doesn't usually happen on BLM land. Like, BLM land is kind of like, it's your land. It's come one, come all, man. Like, if you're worried about, can I sleep here? BLM land probably can sleep there at night.

[Cal]

Yeah, it's libertarian paradise.

[Steve Rinella]

It's a libertarian paradise. And I know that there's things you could do with it, like you could sell it and make condos and mine it and whatever the hell, and someone's gonna make some money right now. But all in all, considering that the country is going to keep existing for, you know, hopefully thousands of more years, it'll stay like that. It'll be a place where Americans can go be Americans. And that is the thing that I believe in protecting. If you came and told me, if somehow I had the word of God that Utah would rest control of BLM lands and not change a thing, they'd be like, no, no, no. We just Want it to be that when you look at a map, it says.

[Yanni]

It's a different color.

[Steve Rinella]

It says Utah Bureau of Land Management. But we're still going to have it. Be that everybody can hunt and fish and camp and do what they want. It's just. We just. It really means a lot to us that it says Utah on it. I think most people be like, oh, that's cool. Not my fight. But that's not what we're talking about.

[Randall]

No, no.

[Steve Rinella]

No one wants it. The state doesn't want it because they want to have it be a libertarian paradise. Even we're libertarians. A little off, because libertarians would argue that you shouldn't be able to have it. So a. A It's America's, you know, like America's playground.

[Yanni]

America's. It's like the sandbox. You just go out there and it's.

[Steve Rinella]

A place to go be American. It's the most American place to be American. They don't want it because that's what they want to keep happening. They want it because they want to develop it. Right?

[Cal]

Correct.

[Steve Rinella]

I mean. I mean, like, that therein lies the issue. It's not who owns it. It's like, what are you gonna do with it?

[Randall]

Yeah, like all. I mean, it's hard for me not to get really, like, pissed off when I talk about this because so unlike my friend Dave over here, I don't have to pretend to, like, be friendly to the state of Utah, which I appreciate your.

[Cal]

Oh, I'll say other things in a little bit.

[Steve Rinella]

He's doing the Lord's work.

[Randall]

I know he is. He is.

[Steve Rinella]

Listen, when I hear a story. Story. When I hear a story about, like, someone's like, oh, you know, his wife is terrible. She's the worst. I'd be like, I'd have to talk to his wife. I don't know.

[Randall]

You gotta be objective. But, like, the thing is, is, like, when you look at. Well, a couple things I want to say, like, what's different between this time and last time? It. A couple. They realize people that don't care about public land, they don't use public land. So the guys that the. It's mostly guys, right, that want. That are trying to do this. They don't do the things that we do. So they don't. There isn't a value to them for public access, for hunting, fishing, atv, motorcycle riding. They do not care about those things. It's not in there. It's not a part of their lifestyle. So they don't care. Right. But what they astutely recognize last time. So last time around they really tried to frame this issue as like a states rights issue. Who do you hate more, the state government or the federal government? And I think if you ask that question, most people are like, or who do you trust more, state government or federal government? Most people would say, well, I trust whoever's my state government more because they're closer federal government means to me, Washington, D.C. now, I could quibble with that and say, well, most of your land managers that actually work on this public land, they live in your state, in your communities. Right. But that is a, I think just a common refrain from people. It's like, well, I trust the people around me more. They tried to frame this issue. This is about a state's rights issues versus a federal rights issue. It didn't take hold. And so the astute thing they're doing this time is they realize we not only need to win a lawsuit, we need to win the court of public opinion here. So let's take a bunch of taxpayer money and spend it on a. Which I think is a smart move on a PR campaign to explain to people why they should hate public land too. And really try and reframe this as an issue that's not about access, which is what it's about. Yeah, that's what it's about. And let's frame it as an issue that's really about federal government overreach. Because that is a winning argument in a lot of western states. And I understand that, but that's not the issue.

[Steve Rinella]

No, it's definitely not the issue. It's like many other things. We were talking about this the other day. We're sitting here talking about buffalo management, bison management, out management, bison management, where you're like, oh, bison. We don't want them coming into the state because they carry brucellosis. You're like, well, I'll carry Bruce losses, but. Yeah, but we like those. So are we talking about Bruce losses? Are we not? No, we're not talking about Bruce losses. We're talking about grazing lands. We're talking about fence integrity and grazing lands. But instead we're going to pretend to talk about brucellosis. I think here we're pretending to talk about like a rights issue.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

What we're talking about is developing land.

[Randall]

When I want to get my 5 year old to eat her vegetables, I'll tell her, it's like, you know, oh, I put some sugar on that. Or we, you know, we put some jelly on that. She'd be like, oh, really? And I'll be like, you know, like, yeah, I'm straight up lying to my kid. But it's. That's what's going on here.

[Steve Rinella]

Right?

[Randall]

Like they're telling you, it's. They're trying to reframe this whole issue away from the thing that they know everybody cares about, which is access. So smart move on their part to.

[Steve Rinella]

Be like to say, oh no, no, no, no. It'll all still be available, It'll all still be public.

[Randall]

It'll also be. But when you start, this is something that, you know, you and I talked about years ago. But when you start, really, if you really understand constitutional mandates in western states, you know that almost every western state has a constitutional mandate to manage state lands. So if they do go to the states. Right. There are constitutional mandates that require states to manage for the maximum economic return on state lands for the beneficiaries, which are the residents of the state. Okay. Constitutional mandate. Can't get out of it even if you want to. So what's going to happen if states get, get a hold of the land? It isn't that hard to connect the dots. So I think Utah understands that they need to try and reframe this debate and not. They don't want people to understand that. Right. They don't want people to know that. They don't want people to think about it. So let's just talk about this in a different way. Let's talk about it as like federal government overreach. Let's talk about it. Let's say there's try and create this constitutional question that doesn't exist really. Right. So let's like reframe this issue. And I think the other thing is like, even if they lose the lawsuit, which is very, you know, they, they're very likely going to lose the lawsuit or not. Not get granted original jurisdiction.

[Steve Rinella]

Right.

[Randall]

Is that what it's called?

[Cal]

Or. Yeah, well, like I said, they're very, they're asking for the court to accept jurisdiction to hear the case.

[Randall]

Okay, so if they lose that, what's going to happen though?

[Cal]

They're gonna, then they'll file in federal.

[Randall]

Court and this is a long climb.

[Cal]

And climb the ladder, but this is.

[Randall]

A long term play. This isn't going away like there.

[Steve Rinella]

It's been going on since what was the.

[Brooklyn]

It's been going on since 1976.

[Randall]

It's going up. But, but I think this, like, what I'm saying is like over the next several years, like, I think this is just tip of the iceberg.

[Cal]

I Agree.

[Randall]

I think this is a part of a longer term strategy here where they're like, you know, they've got folks, you know, they're trying to reframe this debate to make this a friendlier political issue for the people in office so that Congress can also try and take some action. I don't know what that's going to look like, but if I were their political advisor, I'd be like, hey guys, here's what we're going to do. We're going to have a look. There are three powers of government here. Let's try and go after all of them and see what sticks. Okay. Let's talk about Congress, let's talk about the courts. Let's go after the, you know, the presidential office, see what we can do there. Let's have a three pronged approach and let's see what we can do to really stir the pot and rakes, you know, and see what happens. So like, I think the PR strategy is a part of a much like more involved strategy. So if I was betting money right now, I'd say even if they lose the lawsuit, like we're going to keep seeing different things happening. They're going to, that are going to be poking around the edges of the public land system in different ways to see what's going to see what they can get away with.

[Cal]

Well, and what I'm saying is the lawsuit is going to be out there for years.

[Randall]

Yes, absolutely.

[Cal]

Like it create the lawsuit is what creates the space for all of that other stuff. The, like what I said before creates that uncertainty. So makes people maybe willing to agree to things that they maybe wouldn't have otherwise agreed to because you have somebody like Justice Gorsuch, for example, whose mother was the EPA administrator under the Reagan administration, was a huge part of the Sagebrush Rebellion.

[Steve Rinella]

Right.

[Cal]

And they're looking at the makeup of the Supreme Court and saying we have a puncher's chance if it gets there. Right.

[Yanni]

Yeah, that's what I was gonna.

[Cal]

That's where the politicos say they have a. Punchers may have a puncher's chance if it gets there. And so that's where the PR comes in as well to try and squeeze out some. Even if the end result isn't a transfer or wholesale transfer or sale of public lands, it might be overhauling how we manage public lands. Sure.

[Yanni]

And that's like, I mean, when I look at the lawsuit, I think there's two things that are striking to me. One is what we talked about earlier, how it's Sort of the most explosive approach that they've tried. Because if they win there, the barn doors are open.

[Steve Rinella]

Right.

[Yanni]

Like it means the federal government can't legitimately own land if the court finds in its favor. I mean, the other thing about it that's striking is it's a very narrow question that has to do with textualism. And if the current composition of the Supreme Court looks at the clause about military installations in Washington D.C. like, to me, it's not an open and shut case that they're going to toss it out. I'm admittedly just an amateur legal scholar here. But what they're asking them to do is say, hey, look at the Constitution. It doesn't say anything about federal public lands. In fact, the Constitution says the federal government can only own these types of lands. Ergo, all this stuff needs to go away. And I, when I think about it, I'm like, I don't know, is that so far fetched to think that if they do, if the Supreme Court grants cert that the Supreme Court's going to throw it out? That to me seems like wishful thinking.

[Cal]

I don't know how to phrase. I think it's a legal stretch.

[Yanni]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Right. But yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Do you mind, do you mind getting into the plausibility of it?

[Brooklyn]

Well, okay, I don't think we've introduced the fact that Utah started the lawsuit and now a bunch of other states have jumped onto this. So everybody needs to be aware of. That's again why we're talking about this. Right. There's a bunch of eastern states and.

[Steve Rinella]

How they got, what do they have anything to do with them?

[Brooklyn]

I don't understand what the deal is.

[Steve Rinella]

But they want Gettysburg.

[Brooklyn]

But out here in the west, Idaho and Wyoming, Wyoming's kind of hilarious to me in a lot of ways because you can't even camp on Wyoming state lands.

[Cal]

Nope.

[Brooklyn]

And they're like, we want our chunky Yellowstone National Park. We want Tetons, we want wilderness areas, you know, as state lands.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, there's stuff, there's restrictions on state lands about camping. If you want to trap on state lands, you got to go try to get some special permit to do it. You got to put signs up telling everybody that's what you're doing.

[Brooklyn]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Can you imagine, dude?

[Brooklyn]

And in this state, we have a current plan paid for by the taxpayers of Montana that has already analyzed state lands for sale that just came out a couple months ago. So.

[Randall]

Well, the, the thing too, that is. So again, back to the constitutional mandates in western states. The other thing that's interesting about most state governments is you're not allowed to deficit spend.

[Steve Rinella]

Right.

[Randall]

So you're not allowed to. So you have to run. So federal government can deficit spend if they want to. States can't. We had a real bad fire this year. This is something that gets brought up a lot. Right. So three, I think it was like $3 billion were spent of federal dollars fighting wildfires this year.

[Brooklyn]

Oh yeah, $50 million fire is very common.

[Randall]

Very common.

[Steve Rinella]

Right.

[Randall]

So like if you're a state and you have a catastrophic wildfire here, which you can't forecast or foresee, you just have to deal with it when it's happening.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm forecasting right now there will be more. There will be more of those.

[Randall]

I'm going to write that down. Steve, take, I'll take that bet. No, but like you, you're going to, what are you going to do? You're going to tax your citizens, raise property taxes, raise sales tax. You got to raise revenue. And last time I checked, like, people aren't wild about their property taxes going up or sales tax or any other tax. So you're going to look around at your assets. You can liquidate. First thing you're going to look to is like, what the hell can we sell around here? You know, if my house, if I was like going broke, I'd start looking around my house. I wouldn't sell my kids, but I start looking at the furniture. Whatever else I had, I wouldn't.

[Yanni]

Pets.

[Randall]

Pets, absolutely. But my guns and bows will go last. But like, you know, you start looking at what you got to sell and if what you have is a bunch of valuable real estate, like, for sure you're going to sell it. And that's the. I mean, and there is a long history of every state in this country selling lots of public land. Utah has sold more than 54% of its state lands, more than half of what it was given to statehood.

[Steve Rinella]

So it's basically make this strike home. If you're one of our many listeners in Texas, I want you to ask yourself, how much public land access do you enjoy in Texas? If you go like, geez, that's a great question. I don't think I've ever been on much public land in Texas. It's because it was sold.

[Randall]

Sold.

[Steve Rinella]

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[Brooklyn]

So the Utah deal, just because they are pretty tidy numbers, they got right around $2 billion for the state lands that they sold. They did some trading with the feds and got some coal claims and got a 50 million dollar check. And. But it all comes down to a little over $2 billion for their a little over 4 million acres of state land that they've already sold, which is about $500 an acre. Now, the recreation economy in Utah is about a little somewhere between like 8 and 9 billion dollars a year, which is recreating on federally managed public ground, by and large. I don't think every time I've had this argument in the past with, with folks that really want to make this happen, it is akin to having an argument with like an animal rights activist where it comes down to, well, we, because it's ours, we should have it.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brooklyn]

And you're like, you want to go down the economic path, let's talk about the economic path. You want to go down the management path, let's talk about the management path. There's not a good argument. And it always comes down to, well, it's ours because we want it, and it's ridiculous. And like we've said before it often you're having that argument with people who think they have all these silver bullets about how poorly the forests are managed and all the things, but they cannot say it properly because they don't go out and use them. They're not on the landscape. They are the super removed entity making these big decisions, which is, oddly enough, the argument that they use to try to steal the public land. And it's happening again and people need to plug in. I think a huge issue that we have is people don't know how to contextualize 640 million acres. You can't hunt and fish on all 640 million acres of federally managed land because of national parks, parts of refuges. There's infrastructure there, there's buildings and bathrooms and all the things. So it's not 640 million acres. We have, what is it? 359 national parks, I think, of which you can hunt on at least a portion of 59 of those national parks. But there's more privately owned acres in the United States set aside for private wildlife enjoyment than in the entire national park system. So when we talk about, oh, 640 million acres, that's a lot. Think about the national parks right now. Think about western national parks where there's reservation systems and overcrowding, and then think about just removing a handful of those.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, yeah, but I mean, it's not, not, not to contradict that, but you could be like, well, how many kids? There's a hundred million kids in the U.S. who cares about 20 of them? Like, well, the parents of those 20. So it's like, it doesn't need to be, you know, when people start losing access to the place that. Where they hunt fish and their grandpa hunted fish and they're, you know, generation hunting fish, that part matters to them, and that part is going to inevitably get rolled up into this stuff.

[Brooklyn]

And it. And it is inevitably going to be worth more and more and more and more. And, you know, Teddy Roosevelt knew that. He saw all the things that we see today just at an earlier time, and he said over and over again, we are not managing these lands for us. We're managing these lands for the generations to come. And we need to make sure that the things that we enjoy today are here for those generations. And in large part it was, because if people don't get to see them get some understanding, then they will be sold off. And I think all of us need to figure out. And, you know, when Trump was running for office the first time, we have them on record twice with different hunting publications. Because just like this election, I sat.

[Steve Rinella]

In a room and listened to him say it.

[Brooklyn]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So I'm like, he said, quote, I'm not going to sell off your public lands.

[Brooklyn]

Yes. Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

2015, Las Vegas, Nevada.

[Brooklyn]

Yeah, man.

[Steve Rinella]

Nope. January 2016. And January 2016 is Las Vegas.

[Brooklyn]

It's because the sportsman's vote was important then. It's important right now. But, man, these groups are funded really well, and they can take this public lands message that was very, very effective back then and twist it right now to where people say the thing. But in Utah, they're like, yes, we got them. Because what we're talking about is state management of those lands and sell the sale of a lot of those lands and again, $500 an acre for the millions of acres that they've already sold. Like, if you can get $500 an acre for anything, you buy it right now.

[Steve Rinella]

I was gonna say, can I buy a bunch of things?

[Cal]

You might be able to actually. Just hold on just a little bit.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, well, there's, there's something I need to do here, because when I hear about the loss of public access, however it happens, okay? I have like, like an Emotional visceral reaction where I do not want to see my hunting and fishing brethren lose access to the places they like to hunt fish. Okay, But I also don't want to be hyperbolic here, so I want to, like, nail. Narrow in on. Focus on a point we've been raising as a sort of hypothetical and why. And I'm trying to ask you this. To you, Dave, I'm trying to ask you, like, is this. Is this question about BLM land somehow being different? If. If I was sitting here talking to the architect of this suit, would. Would that individual. And we're not. So I'm just holding you to the fire here. Would that individual say, no, this would not extend to national forest. This would not extend to Indian reservations. This would not extend to refuges. This would not extend to national parks, because there's something distinct about blm, Right. Would they tell me that? Or is it really that if the Supreme Court says the BLM can't exist, like they can't hold land, is it really logical that someone would then say, okay, I'll see you next Monday because we're going to talk about national forest land?

[Cal]

Yeah, let me unpack that just a little bit. I don't believe it's hyperbolic.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay.

[Cal]

I'm not a guy that does a lot of hyperbole.

[Steve Rinella]

No, that's my problem with you.

[Cal]

I know, right? You need more of it from me. I tend to be a pragmatist.

[Steve Rinella]

Let's get the. Who's the one guy, the real measured guy, who tries to be real fair all the time and give, like, really solid information? Bring in Dave Wilkes.

[Cal]

Yeah, but.

[Steve Rinella]

Hot takes of Dave Wilson. It depends.

[Cal]

But this is why I say this. I'm not a guy that's. That's usually very hyperbolic. I'm mentally flipping you off right now, but I'm not. I'm not very hyperbolic, but I look at this and say, one, yes, they would absolutely come in here and say, this only applies to the 18 and a half million acres they apply to in their own complaint. They say it only applies to these because they're these unappropriated lands. And they say these other lands have been appropriated through acts of Congress. So we're not asking for those.

[Steve Rinella]

Got it.

[Cal]

So they'd tell you that. I'm telling you when I read that if it's unconstitutional to own lands in perpetuity that aren't specifically enumerated in the Constitution, then that would mean that Congress can't come in and pass a law that says we're going to create a national park, and all of a sudden it's constitutional to own that.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Same way they couldn't tomorrow without doing a constitutional amendment. They couldn't vote to ban certain constitutional rights. If the Democrats took control of the House and Senate presidency, they couldn't say it's illegal to own a gun.

[Brooklyn]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

It's a whole other battle. Right.

[Cal]

So I'm looking at and saying public lands, all of them, are at risk with this lawsuit, regardless of what Utah tells you, what their lawyers might tell you, and regardless of what they wrote in their complaint, regardless what their PR campaign says. And I come out at this and I say, and this is to build off of something Brad said earlier as well. They're running this PR campaign that's saying, your land's not going anywhere. We're just going to manage it and you're going to have all this access. But if you actually read the complaint that they filed with the Supreme Court and you look into what they allege the harm is, what's the harm they're suffering.

[Steve Rinella]

Job Economic.

[Cal]

Yeah, but what is the economic harm? The things they raise are we can't tax that land and we can't use eminent domain on that land to move transmission lines or roads or other infrastructure because it's federally owned. And my retort to that is, well, if it were transferred to you, you wouldn't be able to tax. You're not going to tax yourself, and you wouldn't need to use eminent domain.

[Steve Rinella]

The state doesn't pay itself for its own holding.

[Cal]

You wouldn't need to use eminent domain to run transmission lines across state land. You'd just do it. The only reason you'd need those authorities is if your intent in the end is to sell it. And just because you have an administration right now and a law in place in Utah right now that says we're not going to sell it and here's how we're going to manage it, doesn't mean that this transfer happens and a new administration comes in or the politics in Utah change and they just change the law, the state statute, and then say it's the priority of us to make as much money off of this land as possible and we're going to turn around and sell it.

[Steve Rinella]

This gets to the thing about when you're talking about something that you're not actually talking about, and it's got to, I think that anyone that's being intellectually honest and if we had someone in who's the architect of this lawsuit, if they Were being intellectually honest, they would have to admit that this is about divestiture and sale and development.

[Cal]

Even one of the other. So there were amicus briefs filed, right. Thirteen additional states through either their attorney general, governor or legislature filed amicus in support of Utah saying take the case in one of them. There was a footnote in one of the briefs that. I'll just paraphrase, paraphrase. We think we want national parks too, right?

[Brooklyn]

Wyoming? Right?

[Cal]

Yeah, that's right. The legislature.

[Steve Rinella]

What a gold mine, man.

[Cal]

Oh yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

To hit yellow if Wyoming picked up Yellowstone, dude. Because think about, you could do like if you did condo stuff and you did 100 year leases even on condos, I mean you could develop gold. You could develop Yellowstone national park and just make gold literally. Because you could mine a lot of minerals, do big developments, put in ski hills.

[Yanni]

But the size, Imagine if you could.

[Steve Rinella]

Buy your own hot spring. And the other what a gold mine.

[Yanni]

The crazy thing too is I'd want.

[Steve Rinella]

It too, if I do want it.

[Yanni]

If the state of Wyoming had to manage Yellowstone tomorrow. Like body for body, dollar for dollar, what the federal government does, I mean to double state government.

[Steve Rinella]

If you went and found whatever hosers ran big sky, okay, whatever. People originally put big sky together and like did a bunch of land swaps, Got this hill, Yellowstone club, all this bullshit, right? Golf courses all over the place. If you went and got that crew and you said, listen man, we just got possession of Yellowstone national park. What do you boys have in mind? They're gonna come up with a plan. They're gonna come up with a plan.

[Yanni]

That makes a little jingle everywhere.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, Hot water slides. Hot water slides.

[Randall]

Could you imagine the water slide?

[Steve Rinella]

So when parents got to get on the water slide with their kid, they're not the whole line. As they climb that ladder, they're not being like, oh, it's gonna be so cold. I know that feeling. You get up there and it's hot water coming down that slide.

[Cal]

You know, on the plus side, I might. My dream trip has always been to backpack into or horse pack into the thoroughfare and then pack raft thoroughfare creek down into Yellowstone lake. But that's illegal because you can't be on have a flotated floatating flotation device, sorry, a raft or anything like that on rivers or streams in Yellowstone. So maybe if the state took it over, I could actually fulfill my dream.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, well, there's a pro argument. You heard it here first.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Yanni]

You're not necessarily supporting this argument, but.

[Steve Rinella]

No, it's a gold Mine. It's a gold mine.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Yanni]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Are you gonna be able to hunt it for a minute?

[Brooklyn]

Well, I mean, that's one of the things that kills me right now, man. I. I feel like it's. Somebody's, like, trying to sell you a car.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brooklyn]

And you're like, well, what about the warranty? They're like, oh, don't worry about that. There will be one.

[Yanni]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, okay, well, the manager's drawing it up in the back right now.

[Brooklyn]

How are the. The. Are the tires in good shape? Oh, yeah, it's got tires. Okay. What kind of gas mileage? Oh, we'll get to that.

[Yanni]

Yeah.

[Brooklyn]

You know, and you're like, so you're.

[Steve Rinella]

Sure everything's good, right? Yeah.

[Brooklyn]

Should I be buying this car? And because it's not a who manages it best argument. It's not a. I mean, all it is, again, is just coming down to we want it because we want it, and we're going to make a bunch of money off of it. I mean, that's all there is to it. And, you know, it was hard to talk about this stuff during the election cycle because people were so charged up and they're like, oh, God, if you're voting for public lands, you can't have your Second Amendment rights, or you're voting for transvestites, or you're voting for this. And, you know, and it's like, no, no, no, no. If you stop and think about it right now, you have your guns and you have public lands and access to them. All good.

[Steve Rinella]

How did that happen?

[Brooklyn]

How did that happen? It's because we demanded to have it, right? And that's exactly what we need to keep doing. And unfortunately, like, I swear to God, every 10 years, we need to reeducate everybody and say, no, no, no. You have got to stand up and make a big stink about this. It is absolutely not a real thing that you have to give up rights over here in order to have access to public ground. I mean, if you guys remember the monuments rescinding fight and all the jack wagons coming out, I think it was like, Sean Hannity, right? Was like, monuments in Utah, you can't physically touch them. Right? And people were like, you can't. You can't even walk on them. There it is. Sean Hannity, wherever the hell he lives, and people in Utah, God knows what, right? You're like. You're like, what are you talking about?

[Steve Rinella]

Get his loafers. He get his loafers all dirty.

[Brooklyn]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it just.

[Steve Rinella]

It.

[Brooklyn]

It's so bizarre. It's like, I, I. We just had this great talk with Field and Stream Australia, which is, like, kind of akin to, like, a Delta Waterfowler Ducks Unlimited group. And talking with those guys, it's like a dystopian future of what the US could be, where there's protesters out in the marsh stealing your ducks before they hit the water, trying to flare birds and, you know, really aggressive gun laws. And, and they have this whole experience that we could learn a lot from. And for years, they've been telling folks in the US and they were very, very interested in the banning mountain lion fight, and they're interested in this public lands argument that's coming up again because they're like, well, boy, once the hunters went away, there was nobody telling people that marsh was of value, and now that marsh is egg land. And so now that we've actually gotten better regulations for duck hunters, and now it's not a future in question for at least the next couple of years. There's no duck hunters coming back because the marsh is gone in this part of Victoria.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brooklyn]

And, you know, it's like, firearm possession has gone way, way down because people are like, well, why do I need firearms when people are out there harassing me when I try to go hunt? Like, the. It's all out there, and it's an amazing, horrifying tale. But it's like, when you see this stuff, you see the mountain lion bands, you see this argument that, like, people will literally email me and be like, you just don't even have a clue of how many public acres there are. That's the issue. I'm like, no, I do. I do. And it's not that much, like, do the math. In the United States, like, we're hanging on to a very small amount.

[Randall]

What do you think would happen? Something I've been thinking about with this is, like, if one of the, one of the things we all hear a lot about is, like, just hunter crowding. Right. Too many people in the field, or, you know, people get frustrated by it everywhere you go. And I'm talking about the west, in the west in particular. But the reason, part of the reason that there are so many people hunting is because, well, a people want to do it. And there's a lot of tags available in a lot of Western states. What do you think would happen with just the amount of tags available, like, opportunity to hunt? Let's talk, like, forget access, right? What do you think would happen with, like, tag availability? I'm asking an honest Question.

[Steve Rinella]

I have no idea. I don't, I don't know what the implications would be.

[Randall]

Well, like if.

[Brooklyn]

Would the tags become unlimited and good luck finding access.

[Randall]

That's what I'm saying.

[Steve Rinella]

Right.

[Cal]

Or you get more fragmentation and development and, and animal numbers drop and tags drop.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, yeah.

[Randall]

I don't know. I just think about what is the potential opportunity loss for hunting in an already, like, finite environment where people are frustrated. Like, what is that going to look like under this scenario?

[Cal]

Can I also point out one legal piece that we haven't talked about? We've made some assumptions here. We're talking as if the result of this would be that land would be transferred to Utah and then they would sell it, because that's what they've asked for. And we presume that the court would give them what they ask for in their complaint. They say, dispose of lands in accordance with state law. And I frequently have to remind people that the federal courts are applying federal law and the United States Constitution and that if they side with Utah, they actually would have to dispose of the lands in accordance with federal law, not state law. And that could mean it's the federal government selling the lands and Utah may not be the high bidder. Like right now, the process that's laid out in Flipma is for sale of lands is you have a bidding process and you have to sell them for the fair market value of the land. But there's a bidding process. Maybe they're not the high bidder. Maybe we wind up having to go to the Elon Musk Arches Park. I mean, it's. That's a piece that we're not talking about.

[Steve Rinella]

The architects of this would be like, we didn't think of that.

[Yanni]

Yeah. I mean, because the state of Utah is not entitled to those lands legally.

[Cal]

They're trying to make the argument that they are, but they, in their own constitution, as a condition of statehood, which every western state. And like I have a spreadsheet of all the states with this. Almost every state, as a condition of statehood, had to give up all claims to. And it actually, they use the term unappropriated lands in these constitutional provisions. But unappropriated lands at the time meant non privately held lands. So they had to give up claims to those as a condition of admission to the Union. So they, you know, they don't have a legal claim. They forever gave up their legal claim to those lands. They're trying to say there's this constitutional loophole, I guess, like, you know, we've always interpreted this Constitution Wrong. And so the lands, the federal government can't own them. And so by default, they should come to us.

[Brooklyn]

And that's why they give up all claims. A giant mining firm from Australia owns southern Utah.

[Cal]

And that's the risk. I had somebody write to me recently and said, you know, one of the big risks with this case is just that you have a lot of people that are concerned about foreign governments buying up land in the United States. And what's going to happen if Utah wins this? And the result isn't the transfer of the land to the state. The result is the federal government has to sell those lands. Who's going to buy them? And it could be foreign governments. We don't know who's going to buy them. Maybe Utah buys it, maybe California buys all this land in Utah.

[Steve Rinella]

They'd be like, I wanna, I just wanna undo all of the stuff I just did.

[Cal]

There's a hot take for you, right?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brooklyn]

I mean, water rights. Right. They just buy up the Colorado River Basin.

[Steve Rinella]

California would buy it. Yeah.

[Randall]

I don't think that the. If I can speculate about what success looks like for these guys. I don't think they care. If. I mean, it would be great. If you're a state of. You're the guys in the state of Utah, you're like, ideal scenario, best case scenario, we get the land, we get to sell it and make some money. Right. We're happy. But if they. I don't think they really care.

[Steve Rinella]

I think it would enter. It would enter into general. It would generate the kind of economic activity they're looking for. That philosophically right now. Yeah, yeah.

[Randall]

That they agree with philosophically, which is like, there's a philosophical problem they seem to have with the idea of public land when you come down to the intent of it. So, like, like, if a bunch of.

[Steve Rinella]

Big sky guys had it, they'd be glad.

[Cal]

They could technically be happy.

[Randall]

They could tax it. Yeah. If the Chinese government bought it, like, I don't know if they'd be happy or not.

[Steve Rinella]

Bittersweet.

[Cal]

It's still taxing.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Cal, bring up a really good point. I'm going to verge into ground. I'm going to verge very briefly into territory that I don't like to. On this podcast, but Cal made a point about talking about this after the election. Like, I'm speaking very. I'm not speaking for anybody in the room but me, but I'm speaking very personally. After the election, there was so many areas I was happy about. Like, I was very happy about border security. I was very happy about crime. I was very happy about free speech issues. I could go on and on and on of stuff that I was elated about. But part of my head was like, you know what, though? This ain't gonna be good for public land. And I think that voters, and like, Americans voters, whoever, have to realize no political party is ever gonna do everything you wish it did. You will always make a compromise. And if anyone thinks deep when, When a political party gets together and they have a convention and they lay out their, like, the planks in their platform, you will never find representation of all of your ideals and all of your dreams within two political parties in this country. They decide the agenda. It's never going to be that they all line up and it. You, you do not need to sit and think that I have to support everything the party says.

[Yanni]

Apparently you haven't read the 1836 wig party platform. You like, gives me warm fuzzies.

[Steve Rinella]

I was trying to do an impassioned speech.

[Cal]

He ruined it.

[Steve Rinella]

Great joke, though. You, like, you have to, like, you just look and admit no party will represent all. Represent all of your interests. So if you get the party you want, there's still work after the fact to go. Like, okay, now I need to make micro adjustments. Like, I got who I want. Like, you know, I have who I want in the White House. I have who I want in the Senate, whatever. But these people that I support. I'm talking about whoever's out there, these people I support have to ease off this issue because this is not representing me. It's not representing other constituent members. And remember, we. We went through this. We went through this 10 years ago. I remember all these surveys of what percent of hunters in Utah hunt on public land? What. What percent of Montanans hunt on public land? What percent of people in Wyoming hunt on public land? Well, it being like, like 68 of hunters or something like that. Like, in this day, I think it was like 68 or 70 of hunters hunt on public land. And, and hunters, like, you know, this is not a. This is not like a rule, but it's generally true. Hunters have generally, like, hunters generally vote Republican. We need to convince them to not go down this path.

[Cal]

I don't think the hunters need convincing.

[Steve Rinella]

No, no, no.

[Cal]

Right.

[Brooklyn]

You're talking.

[Cal]

The politicians.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Hunters need to say, like, listen, man, I got you border security. I'm with you. The whole list of things, I'm with you. But listen, this public lands thing, this is not for us.

[Cal]

It shouldn't be a political issue at All. And that everything's political. Well, but the polling data suggests it's really not. I got for public lands. Like, support of public lands is. It's like nonpartisan. Everybody supports it.

[Steve Rinella]

That's why it's become a word. It's a little bit. Years ago, we went to Rob Bishop's office in Utah and had a conversation on this podcast with Rob Bishop. And very respectful. He was great. It was a very respectful conversation about some things we don't agree on. I would do it again with his current counterpart. And it was funny because everyone likes the word access. Right? We sort of agree. Like, we like. We like, just like conservation. Like, what the hell does that mean? You know, everybody's like, are you for conservation? No politician in America is going to say, no, I hate conservation. Everybody's like, yeah, because I know what I mean when I say it. And then it's not what you mean when you say it, but when I say it, I know what I mean. And Rob Bishop cuts on about access, access, access. And you think he means, like, increasing, like, that there'd be more land for the public to use. What he means is basically, yeah. Access for semi trucks.

[Yanni]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Or whatever. I put words in his mouth, you know, like when he says, like, everyone's like, I'm pro access. Oh, me too. Me too. What kind of access in particular? Here's what I'm talking about. What are you talking about? I mean, like, that you can drive your truck more places. Everyone likes access. Right.

[Brooklyn]

I think. I think he used recreational vehicles. Like, if you can't drive that up there and hook it up.

[Steve Rinella]

Yep.

[Brooklyn]

That's not access to me.

[Steve Rinella]

So you get these words that get squishy. And I think it's like after that big public land shootout from 10 years ago, most politicians are like, man, okay, there's one lesson I learned here. Do not get labeled an anti public lands person. So it hasn't changed what you're after. But you're like, okay, so from now on, rhetorically, I have to be more careful.

[Yanni]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

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[Yanni]

I think to your earlier point about, like, the election is not. It doesn't end there. Right. Like, this is where conservation groups especially are very effective because, like, they're. They're getting ready to work with the new administration. And like, there's. There's multiple ways that you can apply pressure to decision makers. And there's one way, like in the last big cycle, I mean, there's this huge public outcry. Right. Like, you saw rallies and you saw people taking their shots at Jason Chaffetz. But I think, too, this is where the rubber meets the road in terms of having policy groups lean in and have conversations with decision makers and try to get them to see all the different sides of the issue. So, yeah, it's like you can't ever sort of step back from the policy making process for four years as an engaged hunter or angler.

[Cal]

Right.

[Yanni]

You got to support the groups that are working on your behalf. You got to talk to your lawmakers when you have a chance because, like, we're all sort of enjoying the. No more marketing calls from campaign offices. My mailbox hasn't seen a flyer in days. It's fantastic. Just bills and, you know, credit card bills. Yeah, yeah. But like, we're just now getting started on this stuff, you know, like, in terms of, as a country, like, this is. The road is way far ahead of us, even though we feel like we can kind of get a break from politics.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Yanni]

And as we've been seeing it on our TVs for the past year, I.

[Steve Rinella]

Read all through the campaign, like, I read voraciously, like, I follow it as an American. I follow as someone who's just like, I'm just interested in politics. Maybe I missed it. I don't think that this issue came up.

[Cal]

It came up in a way.

[Steve Rinella]

Did it?

[Cal]

Tell me housing.

[Yanni]

Yeah.

[Brooklyn]

Yeah. And that's how the Montana deal went.

[Cal]

Yeah. So it came up in the context of we need more housing in this country. And it actually came up in one of the. I think it was in the presidential debate even of there are all these public lands out there that. And I can't remember the exact way it was phrased, but it was like, they're not being used for anything right now. We should be using them to address the nation's housing crisis. And you can see in Utah places maybe like the Wasatch Front, where there's a lot of overcrowding starting to occur. You could, in Las Vegas area is another great example where you're going to see pushes for using public lands. And it could be bipartisan for housing.

[Brooklyn]

Yeah.

[Cal]

And we have to have a serious conversation about if the Democrats win, it'll.

[Steve Rinella]

Be thousands of tiny homes. If the Republicans win, it'll be eight really big homes.

[Brooklyn]

But, you know, the feds worked with the state of Nevada and they did give up some BLM land there in Vegas. So it's not like there's a process. There is a process. Right.

[Randall]

It does happen occasionally. And, you know, that's something that, frankly, this is what Congress exists for. I mean, there have been plenty of, to your point, Nevada bills that protected public land and gave land specifically to be sold for development around Vegas. I don't think many. I don't know if you guys remember Harry Reid.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, yeah.

[Randall]

Harry Reid back when he was in charge of Senate, like, he was the, he was the unofficial king of doing these, these big land deals. So what point is, like, there's a process. If there are legitimate issues like housing crisis or whatever, like, there are ways you can go about addressing those issues in a reasonable way. I just want to say one thing you said, see, which I think is really important. I think too often people assume that whoever they support politically is like, they're going to represent my 100 of what I believe 100 of the time. And I can just check out after I voted. And I think people, especially on this issue, like, if you hunt and fish, if you like to ride dirt bikes, whatever you like to do in public land, park your ATV or your RV or whatever, like, you really do need to pay attention to this issue because it's not going away. And like I said, I think one of the really annoying things to me is when I look at the people that are behind this, I've never seen one of them holding a gun out on public land. Maybe they do, like, remember that photo of Jason Chaffin? Very natural, very natural looking with his wiener dog? You know what I mean? It's like, I don't think they don't do the things that we do.

[Steve Rinella]

Sure.

[Randall]

They don't understand. And so help them understand it's an opportunity they may not want to understand, but make them understand that's our job. That's your job. They work for us.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. When you're, when you're, if you're sitting at home thinking, like, how could I ever, you know, go again? Or how could I ever, like, go against some aspect of the political party I involved in, ask yourself this. When you Read about when a campaign's going on and you read about those million dollar a plate dinners. Every one of those people going to those dinners is saying when they get their chance, they're saying, we could really use some help on. Yeah, every one of them. It's a caveat, like. Or it's conditional.

[Randall]

Yeah. I just got this one thing.

[Steve Rinella]

I could really use some help. I remember I went to a dinner one time and I, I was sitting next, I had dinner and I was sitting with a senator from Wyoming. And he was being, he was being awarded a prize for having really done this kind of like very like esoteric sort of legal maneuver which helped the bison meat industry. Okay. And they were honoring him at the dinner because he had, they had this like economic annoyance. They had this annoyance, this sort of like regulatory annoyance. Okay. And. And they were thanking him for the help on this regulatory annoyance. He didn't campaign on that. It might not even aware of. But people come and say, I love you, man. I love you. Here's some money. I could really use some help on. Whatever. There's nothing wrong with going to your party that you voted for, your representatives you voted for and says, man, most everything you're talking about is great, man, we could really use some help on this public lands issue because we hunt that shit.

[Brooklyn]

Oh, absolutely. You can go to the party that you didn't vote for too. Be like, you know what? Hey, I gotta be honest, I didn't vote for you on this. Here's part of what you do that, that I, I do agree with. Get on board with this and you know, you might have my vote in four years or whenever that turns up. Like, there's nothing that says you have to vote for the person to go visit their office. There's no prerequisite.

[Cal]

And money doesn't. You don't have to donate either. No, I want to make sure, like some money.

[Steve Rinella]

Maybe I'm just trying to help people understand that that's what those conversations are. Those conversations. Conversations aren't do everything you're doing. It's like do all that, but also this, hey, tell me about where you grew up.

[Cal]

But I wanted to say, like, I, I worked for, for a governor, former governor. Right. And hearing from people, particularly in state, I, I mean, we took calls from people out of state, but it really mattered when people called from in state and had an issue that they really cared about. It mattered to the governor. It mattered to us as his staff. It could have been one person calling in and they might raise an issue that we hadn't even thought about. That's a great point. We'll get on that. But when you start hearing from a lot of people, when it's this tidal wave coming at you of people, particularly in these western states where it's a tidal wave of hunters coming at you, saying, you know, here's what we want to see, they take it really, really seriously. You don't have to be a big donor. You don't have, heck, you don't even have to say if you voted or not.

[Steve Rinella]

I think it helps to be a big donor.

[Cal]

You keep saying that. I'm telling you from my position is maybe it did behind and I didn't know about it, but it mattered. Anybody that called it mattered. And I guess my point is people out listening and whatnot, right. Picking up the phone and calling your governor's office or calling your congressional delegation, like that matters. You can build relationships there. You can get information there, and it can make. It really can make a difference.

[Brooklyn]

Well, that's not scary. It's an easy thing to do. Shockingly easy.

[Steve Rinella]

That's the first thing Cal does every morning when he wakes up. Lets his very good about letting.

[Brooklyn]

Hello, Cheryl.

[Steve Rinella]

Letting his elected representatives know. It's great. When I brought up like it was like how much it was or was not a big campaign issue in the presidential election, me, I was kind of getting at this idea that this might still be regarded as with the incoming administration, new new Senate House, this still might be, you know, this could be regarded as a fringe issue. Right. Like, it could be that the jury's still out on this. Like, if you went to the Trump administration, said, love everything you're doing but chill out about the border. You're not going to get anywhere.

[Cal]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

Like that's, that's. That stone is. That's been cast. Right. He. That was run on.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

The issue of, of, of like, hey, you came out against this in 2015. You, like verbalized opposition to divestiture of public lands in 2015. How much ever you, you know, like, you knew enough to bring it up. You guys didn't do a bunch around that. And like, we would really appreciate not having to go down this path again of talking about fewer acres to hunt and fish on.

[Cal]

Do you remember the Return Act?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Cal]

That, you know, the act that was introduced, what, a couple years ago now that would have gutted Pittman Robertson and all the money that goes into state wildlife agencies and how hunters went apoplectic over that and because of that, and they flooded offices of sponsors of that and co sponsors of that bill dropped off before the phone was hung up. They're like, oh, man, I did not realize what I signed up for. Get me off of this thing. I think this has to turn into that. Like, I view this as one of those, you know, the hunting community viewed the Pittman Robertson act as one of the, like. It's the most, one of the most fundamental tenets to support the North American model is having the resources to do it right and not having money diverted to other purposes. It has to be the same thing in my mind for public lands. Like the hunters and anglers have to go apoplectic over this. So it's something that politicians just don't want to touch. Right now you have 13. Well, 14 states, counting Utah, you have 14 states that have said, we think the court should take a look at this. That's making it more mainstream than I want to see it.

[Brooklyn]

Absolutely right.

[Cal]

And so I kind of analysis make the analogy of like, this should be like that return act like this. This is so fundamental to who we are as a country and what we do and, you know, our livelihoods and personal endeavors and so forth.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Like, it's that important that it should be taken that seriously. It shouldn't be allowed to get legs. It should. It needs to stay on the fringe and it shouldn't be allowed to get legs. So there's me making an opinion. Like, I came off the fence for.

[Yanni]

Awesome, good job from the top rope.

[Steve Rinella]

There's a, there's an opinion I want to clarify here too, because I just want to make sure that, like, I'm clear of what I'm getting at. If, if the state, if a state was suing because, because here's a state and they said, you know what we want to do? We want to, we want to give a sort of toned down Wilderness act protection to all BLM land. We don't think that you're protecting it enough for future generations. And we have this whole system by which we're going to take this land from you, the blm, and we're going to create wilderness areas all over the place. I would be like, that's a great idea. I hope they win that lawsuit. To me, it's not. It's not. I should just be clear. Like, to me, it's not who has it, it's what is allowed to happen there and what is not allowed to happen there. It's like, it's not whose name is on it, it's what is the way. What is the most likely path that would be that me, my kids, future generations, wildlife in perpetuity has a place to exist, right? And it's like, I'm going to go with whatever I think is the greatest chance to create continued habitat, continued access for. For people to pursue outdoor activities. And I just feel like. And when I see kind of the arguments and the players, I question that. I feel that this is not moving in. That this is not going to move in that direction. I feel that this is going to move to fewer acres of wildlife habitat, fewer acres of public land for people to recreate on. It ain't going to be good.

[Randall]

Agreed.

[Brooklyn]

Well, yeah.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Brooklyn]

We used to talk about this just all the time, right? And we. We'd go out and lobby in D.C. and talk to people. And it's interesting because we have somebody who represents the nonprofit space, and then we have a business owner, entrepreneur, right? And this is something that I used to get tapped with all the time, right? It's like, hey, can you come join this? Fly into DC because all it is is individuals and nonprofits. We need some. We need the business aspect, right? And I would go in on behalf of First Light and say, hey, we're this Idaho business. This is how many people we employ. This is, you know, roughly how much buying and selling that we're doing. Our economic impact, I'd try to frame up and. And then I would tell them about our origin story on public lands. Be like, our whole thing is selling to people who have these big places to go out and push themselves. Like, we love the people that sit in box blinds. I've had a lot of fun sitting in a box blind, but the reality is you don't need this stuff. We want you to get it, but you really don't need it in a heated room on stilts, Right?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brooklyn]

This is how the stuff was developed. It's part of our experience by going out and trying to go deeper or push harder, get to the top of the mountain faster on public lands. That's why we developed this clothing line. This is why we keep developing this clothing line. This is how our brand is growing, by talking to people about public lands and engaging them where they want to be. And don't jeopardize this because you're going to kill this business and you're going to kill our economic impact.

[Steve Rinella]

Talking their own language.

[Brooklyn]

Yeah. And that is. It's pretty funny. You can see the more rooms you go into. It's like they're checking the box, right? It's like, okay, heard from the non Profits, what else you got? Oh, what's your deal? It's like they kind of glaze over if it's another non profit person and they're like, oh, oh, okay, that's different. What's that? And it's like, okay, got the carpenters, great. And move on, move on. You know.

[Randall]

So I think that's why maybe I take it so personally. This issue is I hunt private land. I've got a lease in Oklahoma. I like hunting private land too. So it's not like I don't hunt private land. But my, you know, the ideas I mean I have been on, the ideas for my products, the ideas for my business have all been forged on public land. All my best ideas have happened on hunting trips in pub on public land. It's the only place I have to think and get away from crazy world. Right? I think that's like a common thing. And so just, you know.

[Brooklyn]

Yes.

[Randall]

Would it affect like businesses like ours, like, and firstly and others like, absolutely. There's undeniable. But it's more than that for me. This is personal. You're talking about coming after like my sanctuary. And that's what like is so visceral for me with this issue. Because it's yes, those are all true, but I think people tend to even like tune out the business argument. They're like, how many billions of dollars are recreation, Blah, blah, blah. It's like, I don't care. I care about that. But ultimately what I really care about is like, you're coming after my home and that pisses me off.

[Yanni]

Right.

[Randall]

So you're coming after the thing that I really care about. I can deal with losing money, I can't deal with losing my home and neither can my kids. So like, just keep your damn hands off of it.

[Steve Rinella]

That's the thing when, when people, when defenders of, when public land defenders, when wildlife habitat defenders go down the path of talking about money.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

I always am like, like, I'll let them do it if they win. If they win, I let them do it. But I'm always like, a little bit like, man, I'll be careful. You're treading some dangerous territory. Because are you telling me that if wildlife didn't make financial sense, you wouldn't want it around anymore?

[Cal]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, watch the language, man. Because you could tell me that wildlife costs money and I'd be like, okay, whatever. Yeah, doesn't change my mind about it. So I'm always like a little bit like, hey, you know the tip tread a little lightly about this whole financial Thing.

[Randall]

Yeah. It's emotional, right? It should be emotional.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Because if someone said to me it wouldn't take very long for them to convince me, they'd be like, you know, those kids of yours are costing you a lot of money. I would be like, oh, all right. Take them away.

[Brooklyn]

I think never looked at it like that.

[Randall]

I mean, I think you said it like, what, Everything doesn't have to justify itself economically to exist in this world. Right. And, yeah, that's why I'd be able to.

[Steve Rinella]

No, still got your convertible. I mean, not yours, but I'd love to have one. Right.

[Brooklyn]

Brad's Miata, Chrysler, Sebring.

[Randall]

Could you imagine that hunting rig? That'd be amazing.

[Yanni]

That would be sweet.

[Steve Rinella]

Guys, I'm gonna bring something full circle. I'm gonna give you a chance, but we started out this show talking about the podcast trivia, and then. And then we got a bunch of kids coming in here in a minute to record our kids trivia tournament for our kids podcast. So we're gonna wrap it up in a minute, but I want to give you guys a chance to have in your. We used to do a thing in the old days where you get a closing thought.

[Brooklyn]

The long, long. Remember that?

[Randall]

I remember that, too.

[Steve Rinella]

And I'd like to extend that courtesy to you guys in our waning minutes here. If you have a closing thought and if you could. Within that closing thought, someone could have the. Also do, like, a little bit of. Here's how to follow along with what's going to happen with this whole thing. You.

[Randall]

You want to. You want me to go first or what?

[Cal]

Do you.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, I already did mine. Mine was the one. I was talking all about how. When I was talking all about how everybody got te. You can vote for a party and then go say, but, dude, chill out about this public lands deal.

[Randall]

I think I've already said mine. This is personal. Should be personal for you. Stay vigilant. And if I may, I still. I think there's an open question around whether or not Guy Fieri is the.

[Steve Rinella]

Mayor of Flavor Town.

[Yanni]

I was going to go back to Flavortown with my closing thought.

[Randall]

Well, Randall, you should have gone first.

[Cal]

Flavor Town issue.

[Yanni]

I think my. My closing thought I said at the very outset of this, which is, we know Guy Fieri is the mayor of Flavortown.

[Randall]

I don't know. I think we might have some hanging chads in that vote.

[Yanni]

Bush v. Gore, another original cert.

[Cal]

Went right. That went right to the Supreme Court.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, I made a reference to that. You didn't catch I said, who's the president?

[Yanni]

Oh, no, I caught that.

[Steve Rinella]

Why are you going back and redoing my line? Well, because you're just doing it for all the people that didn't catch it.

[Yanni]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

You're trying to take credit. Well, yeah.

[Yanni]

I mean, it's been a while since Bush v. Gore.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay.

[Yanni]

Plus, I wanted to show that I could think of another.

[Steve Rinella]

Can I share a Bush? We're going. We're going on a hunting trip. This is before. Like, you couldn't. No. In reaches and stuff. Okay. Whatever the hell year that was. And we're going on a hunting trip. And we're like. Everybody's like, okay, well, as soon as the election, everyone want to see the election because we're going sometime around that window. So the. The morning after the election, we're going on a long trip in the back country, and we're like, damn, how could it be that you don't know who the president is and there's no way to talk to anybody for four or five days? And then like, the whole time we're just dying to go find out and come back like, they still don't know. We didn't miss anything after all.

[Cal]

All right, so, Mr.

[Brooklyn]

Hot take himself.

[Cal]

I'm gonna have another hot take. I feel like. I feel like now I'm just two in one day. Have a drink.

[Steve Rinella]

That should be the thing with Dave. We have David, and he has to give an opinion and take a shot.

[Cal]

Just see where we are now.

[Steve Rinella]

Just till he's pound. Just try to get him to pound potato.

[Yanni]

Solve the world's problem.

[Randall]

Problems.

[Steve Rinella]

If toward the end of the night he pounds the table, we'll know he won.

[Brooklyn]

My.

[Cal]

So I guess my closing thought is a thought and then a hot take. And then you said, where you can find out.

[Steve Rinella]

How do you pay attention?

[Cal]

How do you pay attention? So the thing I'd say is apathy is not an option. Apathy and thinking this is just going to go away saying, ah, this is just a fringe issue. This lawsuit doesn't really have any merit. It's going to go away. When you take that position, you wind up in a spot where bad things happen. And so I think it's incumbent upon everybody to really be vigilant and diligent. And I go back to this. You have to be in touch with your delegation. You have to be in touch with your governor's office. You have to be in touch with. If you're supporting a nonprofit like mine or other nonprofits out there, be in touch with them. Let People know this matters to me. And I want you to be engaged in this to make sure that our public lands aren't sold or transferred. Because if you don't, if you just take the position of, you know, we've been through this before, this might be the last time you have to go through it. Right. And you might not like the outcome. So that's sort of my. I would call that my plea to people. You asked me before, what do I think the likelihood of success on the merits is. I don't know. I think there's a strong argument that the property clause, and we never talked about it, but the property clause of the Constitution gives the federal government the authority to manage lands in perpetuity. I think there's a very, very strong argument to be made there. There's some lower case law that supports that interpretation. There's some dicta in some US Supreme Court cases that support that interpretation. So I think there's a path to victory, to protect public lands in the legal context. But it's not a foregone conclusion. But you have to be diligent on the political side, too, because there are going to be efforts to strip things away and to transfer and all those things. So do that. Here's my little bit of hyperbole because I have one I analogize this to. This is going to age me a little bit. Remember that movie Ocean's Eleven?

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, yeah. Never saw it, but yeah, I'm familiar.

[Cal]

What were they?

[Steve Rinella]

I'd like to see it.

[Cal]

You never saw it. What were they?

[Brooklyn]

They were thieves.

[Cal]

Right. But they were super sophisticated, creative thieves. Right.

[Randall]

Professional.

[Cal]

Charismatic. Professional. Really invested in it. Right. And here's. Here's where it comes. Like, I'm just going to call this Halt the heist. That's kind of what this is. This feels like a really sophisticated heist of our public lands. Maybe that's as hyperbolic as I can get.

[Steve Rinella]

Not following.

[Brooklyn]

I can see that.

[Yanni]

And I also remember Ocean's 12, Ocean's 13. I mean, there are some other parallels.

[Steve Rinella]

We could draw down.

[Brooklyn]

They're coming. Get it?

[Yanni]

I think it's well founded.

[Cal]

Right. And so I say that to say, and this will be the total selfish plug here. Like, if you want to follow more and learn more about what my organization, National Wildlife Federation, is doing, you can just go to nwf.org halttheheist and oh.

[Steve Rinella]

You'Ve already made it.

[Cal]

We've already made it.

[Brooklyn]

There you go.

[Cal]

And all kinds of resources will be there for you.

[Steve Rinella]

Halt the heist.

[Cal]

Yeah, that's exactly right.

[Randall]

I already trademarked that before you said it though. So today.

[Cal]

Yeah, I looked it up yesterday.

[Yanni]

He is a lawyer.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm the business guy.

[Cal]

Is there another phrase that gave you.

[Brooklyn]

The inspiration for that? It's on the tip of my tongue.

[Steve Rinella]

Alliteration going on.

[Cal]

Yeah, there's some parallels you could draw, but sure, if you wanted to go that way. Yeah. So that's my.

[Randall]

I'll sell it to you, though. I'll say the.

[Cal]

I don't know how you. Did your brother say something?

[Randall]

I don't want to disclose my methods, but offering to sell it to you.

[Cal]

It'S not worth anything right now.

[Steve Rinella]

No, it is now.

[Yanni]

This thing rolls out.

[Steve Rinella]

I. We were joking there, dicks. I came up with a slogan, but I didn't have an organization for it. And it was Today's children are tomorrow's enemies.

[Yanni]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And then it just came to me at dinner with my wife and. And I thought, that sounds like something.

[Brooklyn]

She would have been really on board with.

[Steve Rinella]

And I was like, what were organization could use that slogan. And then my friend Savannah said it could be one of those book burning. One of those book band organizations could use that slogan. They're kids now, but they'll read these books and they'll be enemies tomorrow. Well, thanks. Thanks, guys for coming on, man. Oh, and to follow it, give. Give the URL again.

[Cal]

Oh, yeah. Nwf. Org Halt the heist.

[Steve Rinella]

All right, thanks. Brad Brooks, Dave Williams. Thanks for coming out, man. Man, thanks. Yeah, thanks for having us.

[Cal]

Appreciate it.

[Steve Rinella]

Thanks a lot.

[Cal]

He wave on western.

[Steve Rinella]

Metal trails made.

[Cal]

Of dust again he waved it by.

[Steve Rinella]

To the sand that old tin man would only rust again Gate was open.

[Cal]

To the light after 40 long years.

[Steve Rinella]

That'S the first time he forgot he never forgets he'll always remember times when rains fell in thunder retriever.

[Cal]

Where all.

[Steve Rinella]

The thunderstorms used to help us Roosters used to fill the fields Flushing cubbies.

[Randall]

And the brush conceal gone Cause the.

[Steve Rinella]

Trolls can't stay filled Walk the mountain ain't out of Singapore To Re east dimensions 82.

[Randall]

Every year before wind walls.

[Steve Rinella]

White still blue we lived four days his flowers were higher Snow so deep had walked over the wire where are.

[Randall]

All the thunderstorms Used to help us.

[Steve Rinella]

Roll a corn where's my food countries symphony that all terrible where are all.

[Randall]

The thunderstorms Used to help us roll.

[Steve Rinella]

With corn where's my country symphony that.

[Randall]

Old where are all the thunderstorms used.

[Steve Rinella]

To help us Thundercorn where's my country.

[Randall]

Symphony that old timber used play for me where all the thunderstorms? Where's my country symphony?

[Steve Rinella]

Hey guys, earlier this year we launched Meat Eater Kids Podcast and we made a deal where if you guys liked it and loved it and listened to it, we were going to make more. And you did. And we did. And we're dropping a bunch new five new Meat Eater Kids podcast episodes starting November 25th. Again, it's a kid's show. You listen to it with your kids. It occurs in three acts. There's a little history lesson or a wildlife ecology lesson. There's a animal call game that you play by listening to animal calls and trying to guess what animals you're hearing based on some clothes clues. And then real live kids come in the studio and play kids trivia and work together to build up a little pot of money to donate to kids focused conservation organizations. So Meat Eater Kids Podcast coming back. Round two Meat Eater Kids Find Meat.

[Cal]

Eater Kids wherever you get your podcasts.