Ep. 646: The Future of American Duck Hunting

Summary

Episode Summary: Ep. 646: The Future of American Duck Hunting

Podcast Information:

• Title: The MeatEater Podcast
• Host: Steven Rinella
• Guest: Karen Waldrip, Chief Conservation Officer with Ducks Unlimited
• Release Date: January 6, 2025

---

I. Introduction

In this episode of The MeatEater Podcast, host Steven Rinella welcomes Karen Waldrip, the Chief Conservation Officer with Ducks Unlimited. The conversation delves into the intricate world of duck hunting, conservation efforts, and the future challenges facing American waterfowl populations.

---

II. Karen Waldrip’s Journey into Hunting and Conservation [00:08 – 04:43]

Karen Waldrip shares her passion for hunting, specifically squirrel hunting with dogs. She recounts how her love for hunting began in college alongside a male friend, leading her to acquire her first dog, Feist, who hunted diligently for a decade.

Notable Quotes:

• Steve Rinella [00:08]: "This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case, underwearless."
• Karen Waldrip [04:33]: "I just squirrel hunted our asses up. We ate a lot of squirrel, she and I both."

Karen's academic journey took her through the University of Georgia, Clemson University, and a postdoc at the University of Kentucky, where she worked on the elk restoration project in East Kentucky. She humorously mentions, “I later killed one of your elk” when referring to an earlier hunting experience with Steven.

---

III. Hunter Safety Regulations and Field Days [05:06 – 09:05]

The discussion shifts to hunter safety education, particularly field day requirements in Kentucky compared to other states. Karen explains the variability in training quality, highlighting that:

• Karen Waldrip [06:48]: "No, it is a state by state. Some states have made it state law where, you know, don't have to have the field portion of it."

Cal raises concerns about the inconvenience of mandatory field days, especially post-COVID, leading some hunters to bypass traditional education methods by opting for online courses.

Notable Quotes:

• Cal [08:54]: "We require hunter's education. We don't require Montana hunter education."
• Steve Rinella [07:25]: "I feel that they could safely do away with that safety part."

The conversation underscores the importance of effective hunter education to ensure safety and compliance, with Karen advocating for more interactive and engaging training programs.

---

IV. Harvest Information Program (HIP) and Data Integrity [09:06 – 39:57]

A significant portion of the podcast addresses the Harvest Information Program (HIP), which collects data on hunter harvests to inform population management.

Karen critiques the inefficiencies in data collection, particularly in Kentucky, where hunters purchasing licenses at places like Walmart often bypass thorough data entry, leading to inaccurate HIP data.

Notable Quotes:

• Karen Waldrip [07:25]: "Most of the time, the majority is going to be hunters and have been doing it, you know, for since what, the first one."
• Steve Rinella [39:02]: "Additive and compensatory."

Karen explains the difference between additive mortality—where hunting directly reduces bird populations—and compensatory mortality, where hunted birds might have otherwise died from other causes. Accurate data is crucial for distinguishing between these impacts.

She recounts Kentucky's overhaul of the HIP system, mandating online surveys to improve data quality:

• Karen Waldrip [42:43]: "We instituted, it was a law that you had to go online. You could no longer at point of sale even if you bought your license, point of sale, you had to go online and do your HIP survey."

This reform significantly improved data reliability, enabling better-informed conservation strategies.

---

V. Current State of Duck Populations and Management Strategies [39:28 – 55:00]

Karen provides an update on North American waterfowl populations, noting a slight recovery after a decade of declines:

• Karen Waldrip [27:34]: "Our North American waterfowl population is... numbers are still down, but they came up. So for the first time in 10 years, waterfowl populations went up about 5%."

She highlights the critical role of the prairie pothole region, encompassing areas in North Dakota, Montana, Minnesota, and extending into Canada, as a primary breeding ground for waterfowl. However, disparities between U.S. and Canadian wetland conditions pose ongoing challenges.

Notable Quotes:

• Karen Waldrip [32:50]: "There's actually just, to do a plug for it, the movie Wings Over Water... it follows a duck, follows a sandhill crane and a yellow warbler..."

The discussion delves into Adaptive Harvest Management Models, designed to set harvest limits that do not negatively impact bird populations. Karen emphasizes:

• Karen Waldrip [38:55]: "... they're trying to see what are the effects. Is there an effect of shooting three pintails on the population?"

Steven seeks clarification on additive vs. compensatory mortality, ensuring listeners understand how hunting impacts overall populations.

---

VI. Ducks Unlimited’s Conservation Efforts [55:00 – 75:00]

Ducks Unlimited (DU) plays a pivotal role in conserving waterfowl habitats through various initiatives:

• Wetland Preservation: DU collaborates with federal and state agencies to protect and restore wetlands, crucial for breeding and brood rearing.
• Conservation Easements: DU secures permanent protection of wetlands via easements, ensuring long-term habitat availability.
• Funding and Partnerships: DU leverages public and private funding, including Duck Stamp sales, which fund significant conservation projects.

Notable Quotes:

• Karen Waldrip [75:05]: "We spend a lot of time writing a lot of grants... securing protection of 32 million acres through that program."
• Steve Rinella [72:44]: "How does Ducks Unlimited preserve, save, protect wetlands?"

Karen details DU’s multifaceted approach, combining on-the-ground habitat work, policy advocacy, and strategic partnerships to maintain and enhance wetland ecosystems. She underscores the importance of private donations in matching public funds to maximize conservation impact.

---

VII. Challenges in Wetland Conservation [75:00 – 89:00]

Despite successful initiatives, wetland conservation faces ongoing threats:

• Agricultural Expansion: Conversion of wetlands to agricultural land remains the leading threat.
• Urban Development: Encroachment from residential and commercial development continues to reduce wetland areas.
• Policy Variability: Inconsistent regulations across states complicate nationwide conservation efforts.

Karen emphasizes the need for incentives over punitive measures to encourage landowners to preserve wetlands:

• Karen Waldrip [84:57]: "It's keeping forced... you can't plow under a wetland or drain a wetland."

She advocates for programs like the Conservation Reserve Program (CRP) and EQIP (Environmental Quality Incentives Program) to provide financial benefits to farmers and ranchers who implement conservation practices.

Notable Quotes:

• Cal [82:40]: "How much does, like, agricultural food sources offset that?"
• Karen Waldrip [89:03]: "Incentives for some of the things I was talking about with conservation reserve program or equip..."

The conversation highlights the delicate balance between agricultural productivity and environmental stewardship, stressing the importance of collaborative efforts to sustain both.

---

VIII. Community and Hunting Traditions [89:00 – 110:56]

The episode shifts to the cultural and social aspects of duck hunting, focusing on community building and traditions:

• Ducks Unlimited Banquets: Karen shares anecdotes from DU banquets, serving as key fundraising and community engagement events.
• Hunting Practices: Light-hearted discussions about hunting techniques, the importance of responsible meat utilization, and the camaraderie among hunters.

Notable Quotes:

• Karen Waldrip [94:00]: "It is [a Ducks Unlimited banquet]. It is a lot of fun."
• Steve Rinella [105:01]: "Butchers and duck sausages are damn good."

The hosts and guest exchange humorous stories about hunting experiences, emphasizing the joy and fellowship that dart hunting fosters. Karen encourages hunters to actively participate in DU’s events and support conservation through membership and donations.

---

IX. Conclusion

In wrapping up, Karen Waldrip expresses optimism for the future of duck hunting, attributing ongoing successes to dedicated hunters and robust conservation efforts. She envisions a thriving waterfowl population sustained by continuous collaborative actions.

Final Quote:

• Karen Waldrip [111:40]: "Heck, yeah. They're gonna hunt ducks in 100 years. Absolutely."

Steven Rinella echoes this sentiment, highlighting the critical role hunters play in conservation and urging listeners to support Ducks Unlimited’s mission to preserve wetland habitats for generations to come.

---

Key Takeaways:

• Conservation is Integral: Effective duck hunting relies on robust conservation efforts to maintain and restore critical wetland habitats.
• Community Engagement: Active participation in organizations like Ducks Unlimited and programs like the Duck Stamp are essential for sustaining waterfowl populations.
• Policy and Education: Enhancing hunter education and advocating for supportive policies can address regulatory challenges and improve data accuracy for better management strategies.
• Collaborative Efforts: Partnerships between conservation organizations, federal and state agencies, and private landowners are vital for successful habitat preservation and restoration.

Call to Action: Hunters and conservation enthusiasts are encouraged to join Ducks Unlimited, participate in conservation programs, attend DU events, and contribute to ongoing efforts to protect and enhance North American waterfowl habitats.

Transcript

[Steve Rinella]

This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case, underwearless.

[Karen Waldrip]

The Meat Eater Podcast.

[Steve Rinella]

You can't predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for elk, First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at firstlight.com f I r s t l I t.com joined today by Karen Waldrip. Am I saying that right? You are chief Conservation Officer with Ducks Unlimited, and more important to me, I'm joking about that. Big time. Squirrel dog. I am squirrel hunting dog hunter.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

How do you say that?

[Karen Waldrip]

So squirrel hunter with dogs.

[Steve Rinella]

Squirrel hunter with dogs. I like. That's clean. How'd you get into that?

[Karen Waldrip]

Oh, goodness. It was in college and I was. I went out with a buddy one time and fell. Absolutely. Just fell in love with it. And it's.

[Steve Rinella]

Was the buddy a guy or a girl?

[Karen Waldrip]

It was a guy.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay.

[Karen Waldrip]

And it was. What I love about it is you can go out. It's like, well, after deer season and everything else is over duck season, you can still go out until the end of February in most states.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. I should get a shirt that says it's usually squirrel season.

[Karen Waldrip]

It's. Oh, my gosh. It's always squirrel season. Somewhere you can get a spring squirre. Fall, winter. It's great.

[Steve Rinella]

You can normally go squirrel hunting.

[Karen Waldrip]

You can normally go squirrel hunting.

[Steve Rinella]

So you got turned on to it, but that's like a whole commitment to get the dog.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah. So I. I got into it right away. Got my first dog and in college, Feist in college and really had her for 17 years. And she hunted hard for about 10. She was.

[Steve Rinella]

That's who's on your phone.

[Karen Waldrip]

Awesome. That's who's on my phone still. It's terrible. Not my kid, not my other dogs. My dog is on my phone. Dead dog is on your phone. Dead dog is on my phone. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Where'd you go to college?

[Karen Waldrip]

Well, that's a long story. And I don't.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm just curious, like, where you were at that made it plow.

[Karen Waldrip]

I was at University of Georgia at the time, but I started at Florida State, went to University of Georgia, got my bachelor's and my master's there, and then went to Clemson university for my PhD and then university of Kentucky for my postdoc.

[Cal]

See, Oddly enough, your reaction was the same as a friend of mine who was asked not to return to college.

[Karen Waldrip]

That's right. I did not Leave very different endings there.

[Cal]

You really said we prefer if you.

[Steve Rinella]

Didn'T come back to colle College.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep. Didn't want to get a job, enter the real world, just stay in school.

[Steve Rinella]

But you were brought up in Kentucky.

[Karen Waldrip]

Actually I was brought up in Florida and. But Kentucky is where we raised our family and was there for a long time, so. But I was born in Mississippi. Yep, born in Mississippi, raised mostly in Florida. I understand north central Florida.

[Steve Rinella]

But then you spent a lot of your career in Kentucky.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yes. So actually when I was working on my PhD at Clemson University, I was working on the elk restoration project for Kentucky. So we came out west, grabbed 1500 elk from a bunch of western states and started a restoration program. And that's why I actually went to Clemson was to study the elk restoration work in Kentucky. And so I went to Clemson for the professor and then did all my field work up there.

[Steve Rinella]

Do you know I later killed one of your elk?

[Karen Waldrip]

Did you really? What year did you come out?

[Steve Rinella]

Man, a long time ago.

[Karen Waldrip]

I had to have still been there. I actually. I remember it now.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Yep, long time ago. That was fun, man.

[Karen Waldrip]

That was a lot of fun.

[Steve Rinella]

It's not hunting elk in the hardwoods seems so weird dude, to see an elk standing in hardwoods.

[Karen Waldrip]

And let me tell you, it's steep. Like it's not, it's not forgiving country. I mean you're used to this out here, but it's east Kentucky can be pretty rough to hunt an elk in.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, you're hunting elk in hardwoods and we were finding hen of the woods mushrooms.

[Karen Waldrip]

Pretty fun, no?

[Steve Rinella]

Super fun. So reason I was asked about where to college. So you would as a college student move around with that little squirrel dog?

[Karen Waldrip]

I did. She actually was. We would camp out on reclaimed coal mines. So the elk came into east Kentucky because there's a lot of coal mining. So the, the reclaimed coal practices actually makes it really conducive for elk and elk habitat. So that's where the elk came into. Plus it's out of horse country, cattle and everything else. So she would. When I was doing all my field work, I camped, lived, lived in a tent for about three years and my dog, it was me and my dog camping out in my tent for three years. And so since it's almost always squirrel season.

[Steve Rinella]

You just squirrel hunted your ass up?

[Karen Waldrip]

I just squirrel hunted our asses up. We ate a lot of squirrel, she and I both.

[Steve Rinella]

You got new ones to replace the dead one?

[Karen Waldrip]

Of course I do. Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

How many got now?

[Karen Waldrip]

Well, I only have Two right now, but I've had. I've had quite a few at any one time. But she was still probably the one. That is the bar. Right. And all the others have to match up to it. I've got one right now. His name is Oakley. He's about 4 or 5 years old. And he had a good season last year. And this year is going to be knockout. He's a killer.

[Steve Rinella]

That's exciting. Good. You'll appreciate this. This is a listener feedback, but it has to do with Kentucky. All right, so you have some subject matter expertise. This guy in Kentucky writes in and he was kind of underwhelmed. I can't tell. I would think he'd be happy, but it seems like he's not happy. I can't tell.

[Cal]

I think he gets happy at the end.

[Steve Rinella]

He's just kind of like happy at the end. He took hunter safety, which in Kentucky there's a field day requirement.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

It seems like, like there used to be. Not that. And then it kind of got a lot of field days. And then Covid happened and it kind of got a. Like a lot less field days. But he had a field day in Kentucky and he goes down there to do the field day. And in the end, what it amounts to is him waiting in line and he goes 40 miles, starts at 9am he thought he'd be there till noon. He. When he gets there, they tell him to get in line. They give him some earplugs and some eye protection. They hand him a.22. He calls it a little peashooter. They give him a single.22 long rifle round and a peashooter. And he's supposed to put that round in the pea shooter, flip the safety and shoot a target at 10 yards downrange, rack the bolt and he's passed.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And he's wondering, is the reason. Is it more. Is there more to it out west or less to it? It's not a west thing.

[E]

Not at all.

[Karen Waldrip]

No. It is a state by state. Some states have made it state law where, you know, don't have to have the field portion of it.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Karen Waldrip]

And in Kentucky, they've. They've kept that. And it really depends on your instructor that you get so your, you know, hunter ed instructor. Some of them, they'll bring out every different type of weapon and let you shoot them in muzzleloaders and shoot multiple times. And. But then others, it's the requirement. Can they safely shoot a pea shooter? Can they safely shoot a.22 racket? Not pointed at anybody? Put it Back up safely, meet that check, you know, so it just really depends on the instructor that you get.

[Steve Rinella]

I feel that they could safely do away with that safety part.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And the field day.

[Karen Waldrip]

The field day. Well, if you think about it, a lot of them that. Most. Not all, but most of them are either somebody that's a kid that's been hunting with mom and dad, uncle, grandparents, somebody for a long time before they come there, or it's, you know, an adult that's getting into hunting, a young adult or older adult, and they've been going with their friends for several years. Because you have in Kentucky and several other states where you can hunt if you're like an apprenticeship. So if you're hunting with somebody else, you know, you can go out. So they've. That's where they're getting their hunter safety training.

[Steve Rinella]

Exactly.

[Karen Waldrip]

They can probably pass that field part.

[Steve Rinella]

So to answer your question, no, it has nothing to do with. No west, East. He wonder if it has to do with that. Kentucky's more flat.

[Karen Waldrip]

Nope.

[Steve Rinella]

And it's not like difficult to. To traverse, but. No, because in Idaho, it's all online.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep.

[Cal]

Well, yeah, there's a. There's a big stir amongst the hunter education instructors because this last like 10 years has seen a lot of importance put on hunter's education. And then out of convenience and starting with a lot of the COVID protocols, just. You can just bypass hunter's ed basically entirely. Like Montana is a great example. We require hunter's education. We don't require Montana hunter education.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Cal]

So I don't want to. I don't want to get my kid down to a class. I don't want to take that time. Let's just hop online.

[E]

Kids in Montana have to take it and they have to take it.

[Cal]

They don't.

[Steve Rinella]

No, not.

[Cal]

Montana has that education.

[Steve Rinella]

No, you can do. You don't. You have to provide.

[E]

But I'm. I'm saying if your kid. If you live in Montana and your kid takes hunter ed here in Montana, do a field day.

[Steve Rinella]

Yes. But they could bypass it by doing. Well, I don't want to give dirty secrets. You bypass it by having your kid to a different state online, and Montana accepts it.

[Karen Waldrip]

That's right.

[Cal]

Online. Texas, 20 minutes.

[E]

Yeah.

[Cal]

And so versus all that hassle.

[Karen Waldrip]

Well, but also they. A lot of people say it's a barrier, right?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Karen Waldrip]

Like they say it's a barrier to get people into hunting. And so making it easy where you don't have that field day. But.

[Steve Rinella]

But if your kid does the two year Mentor program. Like, that's two years of field time.

[E]

If he's got a good mentor.

[Cal]

Right, okay.

[Steve Rinella]

But the mentor has to be someone 21.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[E]

Or is it 21 or 18?

[Cal]

18.

[Steve Rinella]

Is it 18? So the mentor's got to be of good standing. Licensed in 18. I'm saying if. Well, yeah, they could never go out, but if you go out and do a lot of field time and it's a lot of exposure, that's gonna, like, supersede what.

[Cal]

Yeah, but, you know, it's very.

[Steve Rinella]

It's very. I get very impassioned about this.

[Cal]

Yeah. This is not specifically saying, Stephen Rinelli, you don't know how to teach your kids. My kid in the way that. Yeah, right. But every year we also have this big other to do of like, oh, my gosh, the people who misbehave while hunting are jeopardizing all these awesome programs that provide opportunity for hunting.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Cal]

It must be our hunter's education program that is failing. And it's like, well, I don't. Nobody has to take the hunter's education program, so why are we going to.

[E]

Beef up to get out of field days? Like, it's like getting a driver's license without taking a driving test. Like, come on.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

I'll tell you what burns my.

[Randall]

And you shouldn't be able to get a driver's license if you just drive with someone who's 18 in the car for a couple years.

[E]

Let give it a try.

[Randall]

Yeah, he's been driving.

[Steve Rinella]

He's been watching his dad years.

[Cal]

I did hunter's education in Missoula, and, you know, like, the Missoula hunters or the Fish and Game facility out there is big out on Spurgeon Road. And so that's where they did the. The field course out there. And they had all sort. I failed one portion of it because they had adults that would come up to you and be like, hey, can I see your gun?

[E]

Oh, Lil.

[Cal]

And you're like, yeah, like Secret Shop or kind of.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, exactly.

[Cal]

And they're like, well, you know, you shouldn't just let anybody come up.

[Steve Rinella]

And you're like, it was a trap.

[Cal]

Yeah, it was Brut. But yeah, they had. You know, because there's, like, it's relatively hilly, you know, so they're like, do you carry your. How do you carry your gun in this situation? Stuff like that. And it's like, absolutely not. Mistakes that I don't see adults making. And I don't every single season say, hey, point it this way, you know, to adults.

[Randall]

I did. I did my hunter's ed in Ohio and it was actually like a very substantive class. We had to drive a long way to do it. But then at the end of it I got the card and it was written on like in pen just on the card it said Randall Williams and whatever date. And probably a year after I did that, the date and my name had rubbed off the card.

[Karen Waldrip]

Nice.

[Randall]

And I don't know if there's any other record of it. So I rewrote my name and tried.

[Steve Rinella]

To remember the dates.

[Randall]

And so now whenever I buy a license online like in Idaho or something, and it's like, enter your. The state where you took it and what dates and if you have an ID number. And I'm like, oh, I hope they don't catch me because I'm just sort of making this up based on my, my, my clearest recollection of being 17 years old and.

[Cal]

Well, if you want to have more dirty secrets out there. There's no standardization for hunter's education. So if you type in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

[Randall]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Right.

[Randall]

Well that's what I feel like I'm.

[Steve Rinella]

Doing a point man. That's a great point because the numbers are so like what?

[Cal]

Right. Because like Montana's numbers. Right. It starts with like a letter and then, and then the date and yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

It's not like a Social Security number.

[Cal]

If you go to California. Completely different.

[Steve Rinella]

It's odd that Cal, with no children has such an in depth knowledge of. Not just knowledge, but app opinions about hunter safety programs. Well, because, you know, just a concerned citizen.

[Cal]

I participate in the program people wanted.

[Steve Rinella]

Because he's like, it's one of these people that's gonna shoot me something.

[Cal]

Exactly. Or you know, it's like the giant pile of human feces and toilet paper next to the sign in box at block Management. Right.

[Randall]

It's like that's just someone on their way to work.

[Cal]

Right. We're not.

[Randall]

You have no proof that's a hunter.

[Cal]

You know, like big chip on my shoulder is I feel if you're a hunters education instructor out there, you are doing the Lord's work. Absolutely. You're taking a lot of time for those children who have parents that are willing to get them to those classes to make better first time hunters out there. And I think it's incredibly important. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the people out there making mistakes are ones that are just, you know, they're not paying attention to the Fish and Game website, they're not reading the regulations, they're not you know, it's like we need to find a completely different mechanism to reach out and educate these people because they're not tapped into the traditional information lines.

[Karen Waldrip]

But I think if you like take those hunter safety courses and you maybe have let fewer of them and you take those best instructors and you make it where. Okay, so if you're not somebody, you know, 12 year old that's 13 year old's been hunting with dad a whole bunch and knows everything really well, then maybe you can kind of opt out by taking a test or different things. But make it to where it's more than just going out, driving, you know, for a couple hours and shooting a 22. Like, make it fun, make it interactive, make it educational to where somebody doesn't feel like they just wasted their time.

[Cal]

If there's a driving portion, there should be a deer on the side of the road and your instructor jams on the brakes, skids sideways on the dirt road and goes, what do you do?

[Karen Waldrip]

See? Interactive and fun. Yes, I like it.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, you know what was making me nervous yesterday is speaking of gun handling. And they didn't. I had no problems, but I took two. My kid who's a freshman in high school and his high school buddy, we went out and layout blinds.

[Cal]

Yeah, that was stressed me out because.

[Steve Rinella]

We had a guy on the podcast one time that blew the middle toes out of his foot in a layout blind.

[Karen Waldrip]

I had a guy not long ago that was hunting with us that shot the end of somebody else's barrel in the layout. Because they didn't, they didn't keep with that, you know. Yeah, it's like shot the end of the barrel.

[Steve Rinella]

That was stressing me out, man. Yeah, no one did anything dumb, but it's just a lot going on. Yeah, you're like, okay, like you're gonna burst out of this box.

[Cal]

Well, yeah, we had.

[Steve Rinella]

I have no idea where anything is and burst out of this box and start shooting.

[Karen Waldrip]

But yeah, don't. And don't shoot the dogs. Don't shoot.

[Cal]

Layout blinds are. Yeah, they're, they're stressful for sure. But you know, we just hunted with a group, big group of folks, and on day three, one of them finally spoke up and was like, now what do you mean by shooting lanes? Right. And it just, it, man. Adult men, it takes time.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Cal]

To like be like, okay, this is a safe group to ask questions. He's like, so let's say there's duck all the way down here. You don't shoot. I'm like, there's five Other hunters down there.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Cal]

It's like, oh, interesting how you people do this.

[Steve Rinella]

I've been working on that trait that. A trait of men where now when someone tells me something and they go like, you know what I mean? I'll say, I don't know what you mean. Or they'll use like a technical term about something, like with a vehicle that I. Maybe I'm not tuned in on. And I'll, you know, I'll say like, I'll be like, explain the acronym turbo in your. Right.

[Cal]

Actually, I don't know what that means.

[Steve Rinella]

Right. And normally you go like, oh, yeah, right on. I'll just say, I don't understand. But that's fine.

[Karen Waldrip]

I don't think that.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm not putting it on you.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

But I'm not gonna tell you I understand. It's.

[Randall]

But it's.

[Karen Waldrip]

I think people do that. But I can. Yeah.

[Randall]

It's a very male thing to do, especially talking about vehicles. I just.

[Karen Waldrip]

Just own up to your lack of knowledge.

[Randall]

Yeah. Although I. I got over it when I working construction and working like with a finished carpenter and he would just ask me something. He'd be like, get me this. And I. It was like the first week, I would do three trips and get him the wrong thing the first two times and then the third time and bring him what he wants, you know? And then all of a sudden, it was just like, if I. I'm gonna save myself and save him a lot of frustration and anxiety if I just clarify things right off the bat.

[Steve Rinella]

Sure. I'll say this about hunting with kids and layout blinds, like, at that age, the reflexes are so freaking fast, man.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

They'd shoot the geese before I could get my box open. How are they so fast? And I'm like, getting so slow, man. They're fast. They're just like wired fast. We're gonna do one more bit of feedback.

[Karen Waldrip]

That's fine.

[Steve Rinella]

Can you hang tight?

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, plus, there's this Randall this morning. He comes in. All we've. We found over the weekend, the greatest free range Christmas tree ever found. By man.

[Randall]

And by we, he means his family, my family.

[Steve Rinella]

The greatest free range tree.

[Randall]

Mine did not.

[Steve Rinella]

And Rand, he's like, talking about, oh, I got a real Booner. Tell me all about where he went, how snowy it was and how rugged it was. And like. And he shows me a tree and he tries to sell me on the fact that only like half the trees.

[E]

There, because that's like one of those.

[Steve Rinella]

Trees that was nestled up to his neighbor. I think so. It didn't grow any limbs on that side. And look, it just put it right against the wall. It comes with a flat side.

[Randall]

You know what I don't like doing is. Is decorating the back side of a tree.

[Karen Waldrip]

Well, you don't have to.

[Randall]

If I want to look at all my ornaments. Trees to have sort of a flat wall.

[Karen Waldrip]

Typical.

[Steve Rinella]

Maybe he's on to something weak. Left side. It doesn't.

[Randall]

It doesn't stick out into the room as far it goes right up against the wall. And you don't have to waste your precious ornaments on the back end on your way up.

[Steve Rinella]

Were you telling your wife, like what we're looking for is do you rotate.

[Randall]

Your tree every few days? You can appreciate all sides.

[Steve Rinella]

I trim that. I. I flush that backside up with a shear. But I don't look for one. I don't look mine.

[E]

Well, Randall's permit was for a management tree.

[Randall]

Mine. Mine didn't need. Mine didn't require modification.

[Karen Waldrip]

I think he's on to something. I think it's going to be like the new thing. Everyone's going to be trying to grow these flat trees.

[Randall]

Totally. Especially, you know, if we had a smaller house, I'd want one that fits into a corner.

[Steve Rinella]

Just two. Right.

[Randall]

Just a right angle. Two flat sides. Just slide it right in there.

[Karen Waldrip]

Well, if you think about the ornaments you put on the back are all the ones that, you know, the kids might have made or that. Well, actually those for me go on the front. Sorry. Kids. Other people's kids. Right. Or just like the really old crappy ones. You put those all in the back. So you see all the.

[Randall]

We haven't accumulated yet enough ornaments as a family to.

[E]

You can have some ours.

[Randall]

Castaways.

[Steve Rinella]

Yes, it'll. Yeah, I know. I know a way to fix that in a hurry. And all you got to do is stop trying to make it not happen, which is have having children. Last piece of listener feedback. This is a good one. This fella says this. His name's Logan. I recently ran into an issue with a new neighbor hunting the property next to the one I have permission to hunt. Says everything around here is privately owned land. He's clarifying that while I generally try to stay on good terms with the folks around me, this new neighbor decided to place a trail camera on the fence line facing the property. I hunt. I'm sure that the only reason for doing so is to monitor the deer activity on my side of the fence. Well, you remember that Robert Frost. He was the poet laureate. He had that he had that fences about the two neighbors that get together every year to like to reinforce the fence between their properties. Good fences make good neighbors. But he's kind of dogging on them.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Anyhow, I normally wouldn't care who puts cameras where, but the fact that it's placed less than five yards from the fence and pointed directly on the trail I used to get in and out of my bow stand really bothers me. He's wondering, should he moon the camera, should he give it the camera the finger? Or should he get a big taxidermy deer and start jutting it out in front of the camera now and then to create the illusion of a giant buck in the area that isn't actually there.

[Karen Waldrip]

I personally like option three, but you.

[E]

Left out, you left out.

[Karen Waldrip]

Lastly.

[Steve Rinella]

Or he might grab his own camera and point it back at that camera.

[E]

That's what I'd do.

[Steve Rinella]

I would do, I would do, I would hold all those and I would say to the guy, maybe say to the neighbor, do you mind not aiming your camera do you mind not aiming your camera like deliberately onto my place? Because I walk through there and it bothers me. I remember Doug Duran, they had a place out there and there was a neighbor had this wood lot and there's this huge sign painted on plywood that said, do not shoot into these woods. And Doug wanted to put one on his side and said, do not shoot out of these woods.

[Karen Waldrip]

That's good.

[Cal]

Doug's place is bad. If you climb up just about any tree stand and look hard enough, you can find a little bit of orange sticking out of somewhere.

[E]

Somewhere.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Cal]

You're like, whoa, crazy. Crazy. And some stone faced people out there too. They don't even, they're like, nope, you don't exist. I'm just looking at the 25 yards between me and you and that's it. Wild.

[Steve Rinella]

Another thing this guy could do is put a tarp up. Oh yeah.

[E]

Build a brush.

[Steve Rinella]

A privacy. Like a privacy screen. Yeah, that would bug the hell out of me, to be honest with you.

[Cal]

Yeah, I would definitely call for sure.

[Karen Waldrip]

But.

[Cal]

And you know, there's always something good that you're going to get out of a conversation with the neighbor. But yeah, all the funny things that you could do would be awesome. Just. Yeah, have a little screen that you put up there and have like a deer, you know, have something that'll trigger the camera every five seconds.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Gives him like so much noise that he'll never get through it to find you walking around. Kills the battery. So when he pulls his card. It's like you have 3,000 images, you know, just a CD spinning out of a trip.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Here's what we're not gonna talk about, because this happens. People do this all the time. Some hosers in where? Netherlands. Where are the set?

[Cal]

Sorry. One thing, that buddy of mine that we were talking about the other day, he's got all the grizzly bears and wolves and stuff on his camera. You know, things that just set cameras off. This is an observation that I made. He's like, yeah, this camera, this squirrel keeps setting it off, and he starts, like, going through and through and through. See him there, see him there, see him there, see him there, see him there. And eventually it dawned on me. I'm like, you know, this squirrel's giving this guy a lot, lot of enjoyment.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Netherlands.

[Karen Waldrip]

Sorry. Authors are from Germany.

[Steve Rinella]

I don't care where they're from. Where's the research?

[Karen Waldrip]

Hosers in the Netherlands and the editors from Columbia. The research is based in Germany.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. So these hosers in Germany have determined they. They've done a map where they look at the more wolf attacks there are in area, the more the area's prone to vote right wing, far right.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Aren't you kind of saying rural people tend to vote far right? Because Ian Frazier did the same thing in the US where he's like, the more wild hogs are in the area, the more you're likely to vote Republican. But every election, you prove this over and over again that generally. I mean, there's many, many exceptions, but generally, rural areas generally vote right. Urban areas generally true. Urban areas generally vote left. So I feel like you're just finding new ways to say the same thing. It'd be like, the further Afghan part houses are.

[Randall]

The more pickup trucks there are in.

[Karen Waldrip]

An area, the more squirrel hunts based.

[E]

On livestock attacks, too, right?

[Steve Rinella]

Not. No. Yeah, but I'm just saying it's like another way of our. It's another way of expressing, like. I'm like, I'm guessing that wolves attacking livestock is happening in rural agricultural areas in Germany, and those people are voting different than people that are in Munich. So great work, guys.

[Randall]

Well, maybe they're having trouble identifying rural areas, so they found a new indicator.

[Steve Rinella]

What would be the epitome of ruralness? And some guys like. I guess it'd be like a wolf attacking a cow. That feels rural to me. All right, Karen, how are ducks doing in general in the United States of America?

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah. So our North American waterfowl population is. So. I don't know. If you guys follow, you know, when U.S. fish and Wildlife Service at Ducks Unlimited, it's a big day when the breeding population survey and habitat survey comes out. You know, it's always a fun day to see, I bet, cows. Yeah, it's a big day, right? You look for that every year. It's kind of like Christmas. But so what we saw for this year, I mean, numbers are still down, but they came up. So for the first time in 10 years, waterfowl populations went up about 5%. Okay. So of course that's going to be, a lot of, that's going to be dependent on the, the pond surveys too. And there's a lot of difference in pond surveys in the prairie pothole region. And I'm sure all the listeners know that or understand that waterfowl, you know, for, for waterfowl, for breeding the prairie potholes is like 60% of waterfowl nest there and then a lot, 25, 30% or so in the boreal. And in wet years you have a lot more in the, in the prairies, in the prairies of U.S. and Canada. And so can you tell people basically.

[Steve Rinella]

What you're talking about when you talk about the prairie potholes?

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah. So the prairie potholes are going to be, you know, in southern Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and then into the US Prairies of North Dakota, Montana, the eastern part north of Montana, the northern and eastern part of North Dakota, eastern part of South Dakota, and goes down into Minnesota and a little bit into Iowa. But most of the wetlands are gone there. But that's the prairie pothole region. And it is a critical landscape for waterfowl. And for Ducks Unlimited and another waterfowl enthusiast, it's like the priority landscape for federal and state partners as well. But so what we're seeing this past year with pond counts is it's a pretty diverse and dynamic landscape. So the US Prairie potholes were wetter than they've been in the last 10 years. So they actually had a big increase, like a 50% increase from last year. But then the prairies in Canada were the driest they've been in 30 years. And so just shows that dynamic landscape and they were down. So overall, the pond counts was like 4% higher than last year, right around the long term average for pond counts. And so you take those two things and that's how the seasons are determined as far as how the population's doing. Well, for the central Mississippi flyways, you look at the pond counts and then mallard population, and that determines what the seasons are going to be. So we look at that every year to look at what the seasons are going to be for the following year. So waterfowl populations. You know, there's a little bit of good news. Mother Nature's been helping us out a little bit. It's still we've been in a long term drought. It's going to take years of good weather at the right time, right amount of moisture, you know, cold up north, get a lot of snow, snow cover and then some good rains to keep that, to keep that going. But you know, potholes. It's a normal cycle. Like we have, you know, every however many years, 30 years, whatever it might be. Remember the 80s were really bad. But you know, droughts are important for wetlands to recharge themselves. So while we don't like it as waterfowl hunters and it makes us nervous, you know, we should be coming out of that drought cycle and hopefully seeing some increased populations. But we'll see. You know, the problem with the, the only problem with when the water came in the prairies in the US it was after a lot of those early migrants came through. So a lot of your mallards and everything. So they flew over because it was dry and they went to the boreal, which, it's great. The boreal landscape is kind of like. It is good to have that because it does provide a lot of nesting and production opportunities. But typically waterfowl don't produce as well up there. So the reproduction is not as well because the habitat's not as rich in invertebrates and everything that they need for laying eggs. And it's just not as productive of a habitat for waterfowl. But it's pretty darn good and it's vast, so it's good to have. But typically what we see a lot when waterfowl fly over the prairies is not as many young birds in the bag as far as the ratio of juveniles to adults in the and the harvest information reports and everything else that it's not usually that ratio is not as many young birds. But we were seeing from biologists, we're saying that those birds that did stay in the prairies or that came later, man, they had great habitat. So we should have really good production. And they were actually seeing that a lot of young birds coming out of the US Prairie potholes. So it's a mixed bag.

[Steve Rinella]

Is it that if a duck's coming from, he goes south for the winter and he's flying up, he's not like a salmon where he doesn't know exactly.

[Karen Waldrip]

Where he's Going Well, I don't know. They, it's. They have done studies, transmitters and showing birds coming back like so close to where they had been previous years. Right.

[Steve Rinella]

You said they would shoot past.

[Karen Waldrip]

Oh, yeah. If there's no water, they'll shoot past. Yes. And find another place. Yeah, got it.

[Steve Rinella]

So they want to kind of go.

[Karen Waldrip]

Where they came from. They want to go where they come from. So, yeah, it's pretty neat.

[Steve Rinella]

It is.

[Karen Waldrip]

There's actually just to do a plug for it, the movie Wings Over Water. I don't know if you've heard of it yet. It's been out a couple years. It's an imax. It's really geared towards kids, but not just kids, but it's talking about the prairie potholes. And it's not just waterfowl. It follows a duck, follows a sandhill crane and a yellow warbler and shows their migration from south all the way up to the prairies and the importance of prairies and all the landowners there and farmers and ranchers and. And why the prairie pothole region is so important for all sorts of species of birds.

[Steve Rinella]

What's the major thing besides that water level? What's the major thing that drives duck up and down, drives duck numbers up and down in the United States?

[Karen Waldrip]

So I mean habitat, right. So it's, it's all tied to habitat. And you know, pond count is, is a, is a. Of course it's been going on since the mid-1950s and it's the longest running waterfowl population survey, missed two years because of COVID But other than that, longest year, longest survey. And so, you know, it's a good indicator the more wetlands that are on a landscape, which is what waterfowl need for in the grassland, surrounding grassland. So for, you know, for nesting and everything as well and then for brood production and brood rearing. But, but the more wetlands and smaller shallow wetlands are preferred over, you know, rather have 100, you know, 1 acre wetlands than one 100 acre wetland because they're very territorial as well. So the more water you have on the landscape from wetlands, the better production you're going to have for waterfowl. And it follows it pretty closely. You can see waterfowl populations up and down, up and down and it being with the previous years, wetland production.

[Steve Rinella]

Got it, got it.

[Karen Waldrip]

So wetland conservation, Ducks Unlimited, that's what it's all about. And you know, our priority landscape, of course, is the prairies. That's our number one priority landscape. We work all throughout North America. We have a lot of landscape conservation Priority areas that are important for waterfowl because wintering habitat is really important for waterfowl too. You have to get those. You have to have enough energy and carbohydrates and everything that they need for fat storage and everything else to. To make it through those cold winters and be able to come back up north.

[Steve Rinella]

But now that you hear about people say, like changing agricultural practices will really impact.

[Karen Waldrip]

Sure. Yeah, like. So there's a study we actually just finished using band return. So from the 1960s until 2019, one of our biologists, Dr. Mike Brazier, along with Dr. Webb with the Missouri Co Op Unit and then also U.S. fish and Wildlife Service, looked at bands from 1960 to 2019. And we looked at three different species of birds, Mallard, pintail and blue winged teal. And then looked at different subpopulations of where they came from, whether it was Canada and the Boreal, Canada Prairies, Canadian prairies and the Boreal, US Prairies, and then the Great Lakes and eastern Canada. And then looked at different months. October, November, December, January. So getting to your point. So pintails, if you looked in 1960s, pintails were all along the coast in the winter rice in Texas was big. So all those pintails in January and the 1960s and 70s were all there. Now in 2019, tens to 19, that population shifted. You could see in January, bird band returns to Arkansas, the Mississippi Alluvia Valley, where the rice is. So what? Yeah, it's really cool. You can check it out. We've got a. It's on our website. But part of that state was actually in the last magazine too. It's really neat. So looking at those.

[Steve Rinella]

So they just found the rice production and now that all that rice is down in Texas and Louisiana on the coast.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep, yep. Still a lot Louisiana.

[Cal]

Yeah. The Californians are super happy because they can shoot two pintails a day. No, no, no. Right.

[Karen Waldrip]

No, no, no. It's one right now. But next year switching next year it'll be three. Oh, and both the Mississippi Central Atlanta, all four flyways will be at three next year. Not this current year. I have to be really careful what happens that lady.

[Steve Rinella]

Why is it going up?

[Karen Waldrip]

So U.S. fish and Wildlife Service again. Okay. There's adaptive harvest management models for all sorts of different species. And we could spend a lot of time going into it. Really cool. We could geek out in the science of it. But you know, pintails, like you said, Pacific flyway, they're. They're seeing so many pintails. Well, the thing is they get their pintails not Only from Alaska, but also from the Canadian Prairies and U.S. prairies and where those pintails aren't doing as well.

[Cal]

We have a lot of pintails in Montana in the spring. Oh yeah, it's super cool.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah, you do, you should. And so what is. They mix. Whereas mallards, they have, you know, the mid continent mallards, the western mallards, eastern mallards, they don't really. They stay in their flyways. Pintails, it's a little bit different. So they've been restricted to one. But the reason for looking at it is trying the. It's an experimental three. I don't know if they're calling it quote unquote experimental season, but it's a three year trial season and if the numbers don't drop below, I might get this a little wrong. Let's say I think it's 1.2 million that will be open for three birds. If it gets below that, it'll drop to 2:1 or close season, depending on where, where that population is. And so this year from the breeding population survey, it's over the 1.2 million mark or whatever that is. It's around there. But the reason they're doing this is they're trying to really see what are the effects. Is there an effect of shooting three pintails on the population? We try to set our populations. We US Fish and Wildlife Service. Ducks Unlimited is not part of it, I should make that clear. But U.S. fish and Wildlife Service and scientists try to make sure that you're not having the additive impact mortality in hunting. So what they want to see is is there an impact from harvesting three birds on that population or is it not additive? Is it compensatory that hunter harvest?

[Steve Rinella]

Do you mind walking people through what that means?

[Karen Waldrip]

Good job, Steve.

[Steve Rinella]

Additive. Just so people understand. Additive and compensatory.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep, yep, yep. So if it's additive mortality, those birds would have made it back to nesting and had a, had a, had a successful nesting and had more, more production the following year. If it's additive from that harvest and if it's compensatory, then it's. Those birds wouldn't have made it anyway to a certain number of birds aren't going to make it back to breed because of their, their life cycle.

[Steve Rinella]

Got it.

[Cal]

And that's like when I go love hunting in California. And you do see, it seems very consistent that you see more pintails than anything else. And so of course you get more complaints about only being able to kill one pintail per day.

[Karen Waldrip]

They're just flying over you Just sitting there flying over you.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And they're myth. Because what's going on is that all those Sacramento rice field pintails are all hanging out in Arkansas now.

[Karen Waldrip]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Cal]

This is different. Flyaway.

[Steve Rinella]

So I thought she's saying they shifted over. The hell are you talking about?

[Karen Waldrip]

What the hell are you talking about, lady? So, no. So the birds coming from the Canadian U.S. prairies, some of them will go down to Arkansas, some of them will head over to California. And so it's not distinct where they come from. So in other words, the birds, the pintails in the US and the Canadian prairies aren't doing as well. The ones up in Alaska are doing well, but they might. They all come down into California. But some of these from Canada are.

[Steve Rinella]

So the Alaska ones aren't going to Arkansas.

[Karen Waldrip]

Correct.

[Steve Rinella]

I understand.

[Karen Waldrip]

No.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep.

[Cal]

But you always have to tell those California folks, it's like, well, they're not California pintails. They're kind of. Everybody's been. And me in Montana, I can shoot one per day, and we're growing them. They just end up here.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep. That's the thing about waterfowl. It's. I mean, it's pretty impressive to understand how Fish and Wildlife Service and the states, because they have part of that through the Flyway councils. And when I was in Kentucky, I was on the Mississippi Flyway Council and manage waterfowl populations for everybody because they are a migratory species. And, you know, the amount of time and effort that it takes to determine the models that are going to be best for those waterfowl populations, to sustain them and to not cause harm to those populations, it's a pretty important job at the service does. And that survey is critical and the reason. One of the reasons why we can make it happen. And also hunters, right. With your harvest information program, doing the HIP survey every year, answering the US Fish and Wildlife surveys, all of those things are critical to help manage that population of birds.

[Steve Rinella]

Have you ever done an honesty check on the HIP survey? Has anybody ever done that?

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah, Actually, Yes. Here's.

[Steve Rinella]

I give it straight on mine, right?

[Karen Waldrip]

So here. So here's.

[Steve Rinella]

But I can see someone being like, wow, I must have got 40 hose.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, do you want to. Like, you've got some hunters that. Well, I don't want to tell everybody that I'm killing a whole bunch of birds, you know, so they put down zero.

[Steve Rinella]

You got other guys that want to look like they get more and they're getting.

[Karen Waldrip]

But here's the thing about it, if we don't have the correct survey information then, you know, we're, we're, we're not doing our part as hunters, right? That, that science part of it. So what was happening in Kentucky, I'll give this example. We had some of the worst HIP survey data results. Because what was happening, we think is everyone was going to the Walmart to do their hip, to buy their license. Right? I'm just saying Walmart, sorry, any hunting store to go buy their license. And the, I've bought more than a few at Walmart. Right. Well, I didn't want to pick on Walmart. Right. It could be anywhere.

[Steve Rinella]

It's a great place to buy a license.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah. So it is a great place. Walmart's great.

[Cal]

Get your sliced deli meat, your batteries.

[Steve Rinella]

Deodorant, pick up a hunt.

[Karen Waldrip]

I just didn't want to, I didn't want to say Walmart employees were not doing a good job. So. But you got the 18 year old behind the counter that's selling the license and they get to the hip survey and they just go 00000, here's your license. Right? And they don't ask them, are you a waterfowl hunter, are you a migrant, are you a dove hunter, are you this, are you that? They don't ask them, they just go. And, and so then he's just trying to get some. You don't know as the hunter that you're not complying with the law and you're not doing it right. You're thinking, you know, everything's fine, you get your license. Well, so our data in Kentucky was terrible. So what they, what we did is we instituted, it was a law that you had to go online. You could no longer at point of sale even if you bought your license, point of sale, you had to go online and do your HIP survey. And so then our data went from one of the worst in the country to one of the best that we were providing the service to.

[Steve Rinella]

How do you know it's good or bad?

[Karen Waldrip]

So there are, there are ways you can, you can fact check year after year after year of like certain hunters, you know, to see if it's pretty normal. Oh, they killed, you know, 20, 20 birds here and zero here and 20 there.

[Randall]

So you can see Randall's not, still not killing any birds.

[Karen Waldrip]

Oh, that poor Randall didn't kill. He tries real hard though, doesn't he?

[Steve Rinella]

Every year they goof on Randall. Let's all have a laugh. Full of Randall survey or Randall.

[Cal]

I got a question on The HIP surveys. So last year would be a good example. I guess. Or still this year. I guess. But hunted Missouri, hunted California.

[Karen Waldrip]

Gotta do it twice.

[Cal]

You gotta do it twice.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep. And that's another thing people don't know.

[Cal]

It's an education thing is the expectation that doesn't matter where you are. You're filling out the number of birds that you got in aggregate in that location.

[Karen Waldrip]

No, in that location. In that state.

[Cal]

Specific to that state.

[Steve Rinella]

God. Been getting better.

[Cal]

If you need a takeaway, you might.

[Randall]

Have to retract that statement earlier about always filling out your HIP survey.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, my intentions were pure.

[Karen Waldrip]

When you buy. Well so it should be. If you buy it going to sale. They should ask you. But I didn't know they were asking until last year.

[Steve Rinella]

But you know what? I don't know if I go somewhere I just never. I didn't know that. Like I don't know if you. If you go to Alaska and hunt.

[E]

For a day every time you buy. Like I thought it meant all.

[Steve Rinella]

All in. Whatever you've been up to.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah. Collectively. Right. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

It's not all in.

[Karen Waldrip]

No. Because they'll take it state by state and roll it all up.

[E]

That's not clear. They should fix that.

[Steve Rinella]

They should definitely figure that out.

[Karen Waldrip]

Well you know we are trying to.

[Steve Rinella]

What tips stand for anyway?

[Karen Waldrip]

Harvest Information Program.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay.

[Karen Waldrip]

And so we're actually. We're actually trying to help state fish and wildlife agencies and trying to collect the most accurate data. Working with U.S. fish and Wildlife Service to. In order to do that. But.

[Steve Rinella]

Huh.

[Karen Waldrip]

Interesting.

[Randall]

Oh.

[Steve Rinella]

What was your question about?

[Cal]

Oh no, that is it. It's like are you filling it out for your harvest information in that specific state?

[Steve Rinella]

Yep.

[Cal]

Or are you saying this is me? This is what I did last year.

[Steve Rinella]

You might later today you might send an email to the higher ups in the HIP program and tell them that they should clarify that point and it.

[Cal]

Would create incredible efficiency. Did you hunt Missouri last year? Nope. Okay. 00000 Yep.

[Karen Waldrip]

And so then of course you know, if you just go there one year and hunt, you don't go back for a couple of years. Right. So then you're not collecting whatever. But they have. They've got all sorts of data management behind the scenes to figure out things like that. So they work through those things. They. It's a pretty good system. But they are working on improvements to the Harvest Information program so we can collect the best survey data possible.

[Steve Rinella]

What. Let's say you're a hunter. We can move on from the HIP survey because I Don't think, well, I.

[Cal]

Want to know who kills the most snipe.

[Steve Rinella]

Because that's always when I live. When I lived out in Seattle, I was hitting big snipe numbers. Those good pin tails and good snipe. Now for those years, I really liked it because I could get in there because normally you got to skip through all the coots and rails and snipes. Like I really just got to go 0,000, but I got to hit some snipes.

[Karen Waldrip]

That's pretty cool.

[Steve Rinella]

Felt good, man. Yeah.

[Randall]

The kid at Walmart was duly impressed.

[Steve Rinella]

Back up, back up, back up.

[Randall]

So fast.

[Karen Waldrip]

Put me down. And then. Oh, I should also mention. So when you do that hip stuff. So that just puts you in a category. So that puts Randall will be in the zero to whatever category you would be in the. The max category. Right. I was pointing to Steve, by the way. Everybody brownie points. But so once they do that, then they select a certain number of people from that grouping and then they send out the more intricate survey. So the individual one doesn't really matter as much. That puts you in a group and then that's when you get that big survey. And they made it online last year. You started on paper?

[Steve Rinella]

No, I got. For years I got roped into that. All the wings and.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep. And so then that's when they ask you.

[Steve Rinella]

I can't really resent those people. I was into it for a year or two, but after a while I was like, good lord, man.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep. And so they'll figure out like, they'll ask you which states did you hunt in? So you'll get.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

How did they get. How do you get picked for that? That got to be a lot.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah. So it's a. It's a random. It should be a random generated in each of those categories, but they don't have as many in that top end category that you find yourself in. So.

[Steve Rinella]

No, I was in. I mean the elite sniper. I do a lot of like, like, you know, my geese numbers. I'm usually in the 0 to tenner.

[Karen Waldrip]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, ducks, I get up. I'll climb up into the 20 to 30 now and then. But I'm not a big waterfowl guy. Yeah, I appreciate it. But here's a waterfowl management question to move away from hip surveys. People will point out, like, I think it's widely understood there's some kind of arrangement between states and federal. Right. You can be duck hunting. You can get checked by a fed. But feds don't check you when you're deer hunting and but there's also like this, there's like an international component.

[Karen Waldrip]

That's right.

[Steve Rinella]

But does that have any teeth? Or first, can you explain like what is the international component? And then does it have any teeth? Like meaning would Mexico ever be like, damn it, we're not getting any ducks down here. You need to change your bag limits or would we just be like mind your own business. Like what would our attitude be?

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah. So the North American Waterfowl Management Plan and it takes Canada, the U.S. and Mexico. Now this is from a habitat standpoint, right. The north, the nawamp or North American Waterfowl Management Plan and try to identify what are those most important places for habitat and structuring it that way. But then from an enforcement. So all three have their own regulations and laws and how they set that.

[Steve Rinella]

Up and they don't cooperate on those laws.

[Karen Waldrip]

No. And so if you think about it, in Canada everyone's like, man, how come you can shoot, shoot so many up in Canada but when they cross that line and into the United States, you can't.

[Steve Rinella]

How many can you shoot in Canada?

[Karen Waldrip]

I'm trying to think of what the.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, is there anything like we're at seven right now in Montana. Is there anything more than seven in Canada?

[Karen Waldrip]

Yes, yes, absolutely.

[Steve Rinella]

More than seven.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep. So it's eight I think in like Saskatchewan.

[Steve Rinella]

And do they have the three day possession limit?

[Karen Waldrip]

I'm trying to think what their possession limits are in Canada. Not sure. We need to look it up.

[Steve Rinella]

But there's an eight bird limit there.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah, I think it's an eight bird limit. You don't like that Saskatchewan? No, I'm trying to think of what it is. But you can harvest more birds in Canada, but there aren't as many hunters up there. So you have a lot more waterfowl hunters in the United States. So we're going to have a much higher impact. Same with Mexico. Not nearly as many waterfowl hunters in Mexico. So their daily bag limits can be higher than Canada and Mexico, but the.

[Steve Rinella]

Pie is not getting cut up into as many.

[Cal]

So this is the AI overview I, I had.

[Karen Waldrip]

I'm sure it's right.

[Cal]

I don't, I'm not sure if it's right. But eight per day, this is ducks.

[Karen Waldrip]

Right.

[Cal]

With four being pintails.

[Steve Rinella]

Take that, California dark geese.

[Cal]

Eight per day with no more than five being white fronted.

[Steve Rinella]

Wow. So that's double our geese.

[Cal]

Yeah, yeah. That's a lot. White geese, 20 per day.

[Karen Waldrip]

Not as much pressure. It's fairly close And a much shorter amount of time, too.

[Cal]

You know, five sandhill cranes per day. That's a lot of meat.

[Karen Waldrip]

Is white geese, snows.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

But normally lately when people say they're moving to Canada, they're making some kind of comment about the election. But you'd be like, no, I mean, because ducks. Well, this.

[Randall]

I was gonna say this might make some of those Californians make good on their promises.

[Cal]

Giant mule deer and ducks. Come on.

[Karen Waldrip]

Can't go wrong.

[Cal]

No.

[Steve Rinella]

How is it that. How does it come to be that different states have different regs?

[Karen Waldrip]

Okay, like.

[Steve Rinella]

Like how. Like, how do they weigh that out?

[Karen Waldrip]

Sure.

[Steve Rinella]

We're. Like I said right here. I don't know what it is in other places. Right. Right now. I mean, for years has been like, there's all kinds of restrictions, but, like, you're allowed seven ducks, and then we have all of those, like, no more than blank. So, yeah, seven ducks, but no more than two can be a hen, mallard. No more than on a pintail.

[Cal]

Yeah, well, there can be huge discrepancies. I remember a season or two where you could kill seven ducks in Montana, but if you were in Stuttgart, Arkansas, waterfowl capital of the world, you could shoot a duck.

[Steve Rinella]

A duck.

[Cal]

A duck.

[Steve Rinella]

A duck.

[Cal]

Yeah. That's how. Like, I can't remember the exact situation, but it was, like, very dark, very dying over there. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. So, yeah, how's that all? How is that all divided?

[Karen Waldrip]

So I mentioned briefly earlier the flyway councils. And so because they are migratory and international and. And everything, you have the. The federal regulations, and then you also can have state regulations. So whatever the feds come up with, you can have, like, next year, three pintails, and you're in the liberal season. States can be more restrictive than the federal rule, but not less restrictive. So a state like Arkansas can make the decision because they have a ton of hunters there putting a lot of pressure. They can be more restrictive, trying to keep more ducks in that area. But then there's also packages that come with the liberal package, and you can have a certain number of zones and splits in your season and everything. But there are federal regulations of if you have one split and two zones, it can only be this and that in each area, in each flyway is different, and I don't know them all. So it is a state and federal. And the flyway council has one state representative from. Or one representative from each state on the Mississippi Flyway, Atlantic, all the flyways, and they serve as a vote for, you know, we as a flyway. Do we agree with these particular regulations for our flyway? And then that goes up and goes back to the feds and it finishes that system. But then a state can take what was in the Federal Register and then they can make the decision to, you know, take their packages however they want to and be more restrictive.

[Steve Rinella]

So Arkansas could come home from that meeting and they were pushing for greater restrictions. Didn't get them. But they could come home and just impose greater restrictions at home.

[Karen Waldrip]

It's their commissioners or their board, however they're set up, that vote on their regulations. Each state, again, is different how the regulations are set. Some might be from a legislative set, some might be from a fish and wildlife commission. And so they vote, they take. Typically what you want system to work correctly is the biologist, the waterfowl biologist will give the recommendation to that board and say, look, this is what we think because our green tree reservoirs aren't doing well, or this or that. Whatever reason they might have had. I don't know that situation, but. And we think this is our recommendation. But sometimes commissions will make their own decision, and it'll be contrary sometimes to what the biologists think to err in the side of caution or something.

[Steve Rinella]

Man. What were the conversations in Arkansas when it got as bad as one duck a year? People had been like, just complaining.

[Cal]

Yeah. Because, you know, it's a big. Duck hunting is very social compared to a lot of other hunting activities. Right. So a lot of folks getting together in blinds and. And yeah, you can only shoot duck camps. Yeah. I think that was where you really saw the rise of, you know, like, cooking and accoutrement and fancy duck blinds because you had to make more of a day out of it because it.

[Steve Rinella]

Wasn'T just all shooting anymore.

[Cal]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Yeah. And then. Yeah. So then. And then we saw, you know, then you see, like, your duck hunters that really want to keep hunting ducks see them traveling a lot more when their. Their home water restrictions get. Get tighter and they're searching out those liberal regulations. Right.

[Karen Waldrip]

And then you're putting a lot of pressure in that area. And, you know, do you have enough, you know, nutrition, duck energy days, enough habitat to support duck energy?

[Cal]

I really want to get into. Because I was trying to explain that because that's fascinating stuff, but that's how.

[Steve Rinella]

Much energy you get from eating a duck.

[Cal]

Well, it is super food, man. It is. Yeah. Big fat. We cooked up a cut. We were hiking our butts off over the Thanksgiving weekend, and I took big rice field ducks and cooked them up in the camper. And yeah.

[Karen Waldrip]

Good stuff.

[Cal]

Oh, so good.

[Karen Waldrip]

So that's what duck energy is.

[Steve Rinella]

No, no big duck energy.

[Cal]

But like state, like South Dakota. Right. That's where it's a, it's a major recreational traveling tourism economy for hunting. And in order to try to balance out that pressure. Right. They. You have to draw for a specific week as a non resident to go. Which we've, we've done in the past and well worth doing. Super fun. But yeah. Waterfowl complicated. Or waterfowl regulations can get pretty darn complicated. Right. And it's like, okay, you can only shoot five. We were just in Kansas. It's like you can shoot five mallards and an odd duck. You're like, okay, well what's up? What do you consider odd?

[Karen Waldrip]

You know, that one had one eye.

[Steve Rinella]

So I interpret that as. It's a six duck limit. No more than five can be mallards.

[Cal]

Yes.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep.

[Cal]

Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then I think it was two hands as well, so. Or mixed in there.

[Karen Waldrip]

And then if you're hunting public land, it could even get more, you know, complicated because they might have specific regulations for that wildlife management area or something too. So it's it. Unfortunately, I think sometimes people get really nervous if they're new to waterfowl hunting. There's a lot that could maybe try to keep you from waterfowl hunting. So that's where apprentice and going with friends is so important because they're going to know the rules and keep.

[Cal]

There's a WMA in Arkansas that we were right next to and I want to say you could only have. Was it 12 shells in your possession?

[Karen Waldrip]

Oh yeah. They'll limit however many I love because.

[Cal]

It'S like an anti sky busting type of regulation.

[Steve Rinella]

Sure, man. You got every, every shot. Dude, you shoot a lot different then don't worry.

[E]

Bring a single shot. That'd be a good program.

[Cal]

Yeah, yeah.

[Karen Waldrip]

Because you don't want, you don't want all your ducks leaving that area. Right.

[Steve Rinella]

Shells.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep.

[Cal]

I loved it.

[Karen Waldrip]

A lot of them do it.

[E]

I wouldn't.

[Cal]

After my Wyoming hunting experience, I thought that would be a good regulation to have for rifle hunting too.

[Steve Rinella]

But.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

I had a trapper recently tell me that when he. The guy that taught him to trap, he said the most valuable lesson he ever gave me is he says, I treat every trap like it's my only trap. If you treated every shell like it was your only shell, dude, you'd shoot. It'd be a lot different experience.

[Cal]

Well, yeah, I want to know what the psychological impact would Be even on a. On a somebody who's a fantastic shot. If it's like, okay, here's your five.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Right. Just like, how that would change that.

[Steve Rinella]

Actually be a fun game to do, man.

[Cal]

It would.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah. Everyone will start yelling at each other. Why didn't you shoot? No. Why didn't you? Well, I don't know. It's a little too far. You waited too long. Yeah. All these ducks would be flying by and everyone would be mad.

[Steve Rinella]

That'd be weird to have conversations like, why didn't you shoot? Rather than why did you shoot?

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

That's the normal conversation.

[Karen Waldrip]

What the hell are you doing that.

[Cal]

End of the season around here especially? Right. Like, my goal, one of my recurring hunting goals is always to, like, end the season with my maximum possession limit of ducks so I can carry through.

[Karen Waldrip]

Feel good about it.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So your freezer's got 21 ducks in it.

[Cal]

Yeah. And I want it. Want them all to be fat, you know, like that. That would be like the. The way to hit it. Perfect. But. And you typically, you're like, okay, cold weather, the ducks are going to be putting the feed bag on and. And. But you can time your timing matters to where it's like, okay, all of a sudden there's a ton of birds in. But they just got there. And they're really skinny.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Versus if the birds have been there for a few days, you want to get them right before they head out, because that's when they're at maximum duck energy, maximum fat.

[Karen Waldrip]

You have fed them well. Yes.

[Cal]

And then. So can you go into that? Because that's super fascinating. Like, how fast they burn those calories.

[Karen Waldrip]

And like, again, I was talking about that North American Waterfowl management plan. There's different plans that that waterfowl managers use, and they have a lot of state and regional requirements for like, I don't know, it might be 400 million Duck Energy Days in the Mississippi Alluvial valley is what's needed to sustain those ducks. So a duck energy day is the amount of energy that one duck needs for one day. Right. And so a duck energy day and how much? Like an acre. And it's by, like, the acre. So it's like how many duck energy days are on this acre of land and providing how much energy. So if you had 1,000 ducks and you wanted them there for one day. One day, you need 1,000 duck energy days in that one acre.

[Steve Rinella]

So in the form of what? In the form of whatever.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah. The high. Well and each. And they'll do it by groups of species, by dabblers or different, different individuals.

[Steve Rinella]

It's not, you're not talking about like spreading food out.

[Karen Waldrip]

No.

[Cal]

It could be like water celery or soybeans or.

[Randall]

Yeah, but it's the caloric.

[Karen Waldrip]

It's the caloric, yes, exactly.

[Steve Rinella]

Some kind of food that provides regionally, like regionally available food.

[Karen Waldrip]

That's right, yeah. Yep. And so how much? And so they have targets. So 110 days, I think is what they typically keep for what they want to provide the food for ducks in Mississippi Alluvial Valley, for example. And so then you have to have in that whole area 400 million duck energy days to be able to support the waterfowl population that you're expecting to come into the Mississippi Alluvial Valley. Or a lot of states will do it. A smaller regional areas too, and they might do it for wildlife management areas, different things like that. For what are the duck energy, what's the requirement of the duck energy days to make sure those animals have, you know, lots of carbs, lots of other things to store that fat for their, you know, migratory journey north as well.

[Randall]

So it's, it's analogous basically to like a grazing unit, if you're thinking in terms of like cattle.

[Steve Rinella]

Cow calf units.

[Randall]

Yeah, it's like an aum basically. Like what is this? What can this landscape sustain?

[Karen Waldrip]

Right. What can it sustain? What can that inspire? The acre. So what can that one acre, how many ducks can it support for that, that time period?

[Randall]

I was curious about this. When you're talking about the variability in migration routes earlier and talking about if there's no water in the potholes, they go up to the boreal.

[Karen Waldrip]

Right.

[Randall]

And when I think about animal migration, I think about the like caloric tax on the animal. Especially when you talk about big game or thing about like salmon, you know, like it's something that I hadn't really considered in the waterfowl realm, but considering that their migration route could vary by hundreds of miles.

[Karen Waldrip]

That's right.

[Randall]

Season to season, it's kind of striking.

[Karen Waldrip]

And then of course, you know, what kind of condition are they in when they get there. Now they are feeding along the way, obviously, and depending on the species, they'll start switching over maybe to invertebrates right before they get there to the nesting areas and to the prairies or whatnot. So they'll shift their diets and everything based on the type of food they need. But you want them to have in some of those southern states that high energy food, carbohydrates to get them there. But yeah, so it puts a tax on them when there's not water in the prairies, when wetlands are gone. I think the prairies, I mean, depending on certain areas, it could be as high as 90% of the potholes or the wetlands have been lost. But in a lot of the prairies, over 50%. 50% of the. By the mid-1980s, 50% were lost, which is why the North American waterfowl. One of the reasons the North American Waterfowl Management plan started was 1984. But in the mid-1980s, like, half of all the wetlands had been lost across the United States in the lower 48.

[E]

How much does, like, agricultural food sources offset that?

[Karen Waldrip]

Like, ag.

[E]

Is there.

[Karen Waldrip]

It's important.

[E]

Like, is it possible there's more ducks now because of agriculture than there was, say, 200 years ago when the middle of the country wasn't covered in corn and Soybean?

[Karen Waldrip]

Like, well, 1950s.

[Steve Rinella]

Let's not do 200 years ago, but pick another. Like, pick a known number. Because that's a good question. Right. Like, there's more. Like the grain prices are high and everybody's producing grain.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

And all these farmers are switching to grain.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

That doesn't make up for all that lost ground.

[Karen Waldrip]

No, no. Because waterfowl need. They need. The wetlands are gone. Yeah. And, you know, the grain in the world, that time of year, they're feeding a lot on invertebrates. Right. Because they're trying to eggshells and everything else and that protein. So they're really moving to protein that time of year. And that's what wetlands are just. They are just wonderful little soup. Just.

[E]

So there's not like around here, like, there used to be a lot of wheat production around here, and it's. A lot of those fields are getting covered up in condo. Like, is that concern?

[Karen Waldrip]

Absolutely. And so we work a lot, you know, because we want agriculture on the landscape and because we don't want it to turn into condos and this and that. And so we work with nrcs, usda, nrcs, and we work with landowners and farmers and ranchers to develop programs, both with federal partners, state partners, and then we have our own programs because we want to keep ranching and farming on the landscape and then working to keep wetlands and important grasslands in that landscape on there. Right. Whether it's through incentives, through education, because soil health practices, a lot of soil health practices and other things that we can work with landowners and farmers to improve. It's going to be better for them economically. They're going to Have a better crop. It's going to help with sedimentation, runoff, all of that. And then it's also putting in cover crops and other things for waterfowl is beneficial again for them, and then also for wildlife. So there's a lot of practices that we can work on with farmers and ranchers. So we, we want them on that landscape and they're, they're critical, critical partners for us.

[Randall]

There's not a lot of duck energy in condos.

[Karen Waldrip]

Not a lot of duck energy in condos. No.

[Steve Rinella]

When you talk about losing half of our wetlands, can you.

[Karen Waldrip]

Can you being drained?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Put some numbers around that, like, start. What's the start? Like, what's a starting point? You're not talking about European arrival in the new world. Like, there's, like.

[Karen Waldrip]

No, no, since, like a lot of development in the U.S. right. And so, like the Mississippi, you know, Mississippi River Basin, I think it's estimates of almost 80% been lost of wetlands. And if you think about it, you know, flooding along the Mississippi over the last.

[Steve Rinella]

What.

[Karen Waldrip]

Just ballpark it, I'd say, golly, what would be the year, Mark? I mean, last, like post World War II. Yeah. You know, 1900s, early 1900s, I would say.

[Steve Rinella]

What percentage?

[Karen Waldrip]

Like, in the Mississippi river basin? Like 80. 80%. But what I think a number I read, you know, by the mid-1980s, believe a number I've read is that like 50% in the lower 48 were lost. And think about it, you know, draining a lot of wetlands for building for. For farm ground. It can be for farm ground. It can be for. You name it.

[Cal]

I mean, it's reclamation districts, right?

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah, everything. So they're constantly under attack. And people don't understand the. Not everyone understands the importance of a wetland and that they can provide so many other things other than just waterfowl habitat and habitat for lots of other fish, bird species, everything. But also it helps with flood attenuation. If you're talking along the Mississippi river, it helps with storm resiliency on shorelines. It helps with clean water filtration. I mean, they are nature's kidneys. They're nature's sponges. They filter out phosphorus, nitrogen, all these, you know, and then they also help store water during heavy rain events to keep from flooding issues. So wetlands are really important to people and wildlife.

[Cal]

And that's what. When I started hunting Saskatchewan and Alberta a long, long time ago. I haven't been up there in years for waterfowl, but the amount of DU work north of the border.

[Karen Waldrip]

Oh, yeah.

[Cal]

Which was interesting, too because also you would hear from people like, oh, I don't, don't contribute to DU because they just spend all my money in Canada. Right. But like, that's where they're throwing the ducks.

[Steve Rinella]

They spend all my money. Right. Where all my ducks come from.

[Karen Waldrip]

Exactly. Right, yeah. So until the mid-1980s, we did not do work in the U.S. we did only work in the Canadian. In the prairies, in Canada.

[Steve Rinella]

Seriously.

[Karen Waldrip]

Because that's where the majority of waterfowl were. And it was in the mid-80s, again, that waterfowl management plan that I was talking about started looking at. Okay, well, we need to start. And not just Ducks Unlimited, but federal, state, provincial partners, everybody coming together and saying, we need to look at all of these important landscapes. And there's a lot in the US as well. So we started work in the US prairies in the mid-1980s, and then of course, other priority landscapes from there and also down into Mexico. So that really didn't start until the mid-1980s. But like you said, putting the most money we can into those highest priority landscapes, which is going to be your Canadian prairies, US Prairies, the boreal. But there's other critical landscapes as well that we just were talking about as far as the importance of wintering habitat as well. So it's a lot of great programs out there. And I should go ahead and make a plug for hunters that every time you buy that duck stamp, that duck stamp goes to protecting permanent protection of wetlands in the United States. And there's a major portion of those dollars that go into the US prairies. And so that $25 stamp you're protecting, putting a permanent easement on a piece of property on land that is held by the U.S. fish and Wildlife Service. It's part of actually the refuge system. But we have now, through this program, the U.S. fish and Wildlife Service, JV, the joint venture partners and others have secured protection of 30% of the breeding pair habitat that's necessary. So that's pretty impressive. 30% of that nesting important critical habitat through duck stamps. So hunters are doing their part. We always say hunters pay for conservation. I mean, this is a very clear point A to point B, 98% of the duck stamp sales go right into on the ground conservation easements. And so anybody, any enthusiast that buys a duck stamp for art or other purposes, just because they like them, they are putting that money towards conservation on the ground. And it's made. I can't think of another group of species or species of that size where we have been able to Protect that large amount of. Through some. Through an effort like that.

[Steve Rinella]

The guy that painted this year's duck stamp was sitting right in that seat you're sitting in.

[Karen Waldrip]

No way. So I judge. I was the judge for last year's duck stamp. Oh, maybe you picked up. There's five judges, so I was one of them. But yeah. Cool.

[Steve Rinella]

How does Ducks Unlimited preserve, save, protect wetlands? I mean, do you guys. Is there a lot. Do you have a lobbying arm that does policy?

[Karen Waldrip]

We definitely.

[Steve Rinella]

And then you also have like, on the ground. On the ground money, like money spent. Explain those different ways. You.

[Cal]

Sorry to jump in, but will you also say, like the. The public ground and private ground, like what the kind of the split is.

[Karen Waldrip]

Okay.

[Cal]

Almost like where the money goes type thing. Lobbying. Public, private.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep. So we have. We get a lot of public dollars that we apply for, whether it's the North American wetlands conservation dollars. That's. Those are wetland dollars. It was enacted in 1989 to help support that waterfowl management plan. So we get a lot of money through that. But we also work a lot with NRCS, but. And U.S. fish and Wildlife Service to work on refuges. U.S. fish and Wildlife Service, we work a lot with state agencies on public land, but we now have about 400 conservation staff. So Index Unlimited, about 400 staff are biologists, scientists, GIS. I've got a lot of engineers, engineer techs, all doing this work on the ground. So on the ground, habitat work on private and public land. From a public land perspective, in the last several years, we've probably had conservation practices over maybe close to 600,000. Yeah, about 600,000 acres on public land. So on national wildlife refuges, state agencies. And a lot of those are more intensive projects. Those are going to be your. Your water, wetland enhancement, wetland creation, a lot of rehabilitation. Rehabilitation, pulling out the grain tile or building some of that infrastructure so you can have manipulate water levels and everything else. So there's a lot more work that goes into it. A lot of the work that we do on private land is going to be more your technical assistance or the money that we apply for with USDA nrcs to do farm practices that benefit conservation practices on farm and things like that. So it's a lot more on the private land. It's a lot more of working with farmers and ranchers and things like that is more those types of acres. And the first part of your question, though, I'm just trying to go back to real quick. You were talking about lobbying.

[Steve Rinella]

Lobbying.

[Karen Waldrip]

Oh, yeah. So what are the different things how.

[Steve Rinella]

Do you influence, how do you influence the loss of wetlands? Wetlands?

[Karen Waldrip]

So a lot of that we have a group of folks that are policy specialists. We have some in D.C. and then we also have some regionally because there can be regional instances as well that we're going to have these policy experts. But we work a lot with policymakers on farm bills. A big one that we work on to make sure that there's conservation practices in there. Another one is to ensure that we have complete, full funding for, for naca, the North American Wetlands Conservation Act. It's enacted and it's about $50 million a year for that. So they work really hard to ensure that we have those types of dollars available to put on the ground for conservation. So they spend a lot of time working on that. And then our teams in the field, they are constantly looking for new funding sources or new partners to work with, because the more partners that you work with, the better. With naca, they've now, through North American Wetlands Conservation Act, I think it's 32 million acres have been conserved, not just by ducks unlimited, but 32 million acres have been conserved through that program. And it has spent $2 billion, but it's a one to one matching program. So it requires, for every dollar spent of federal dollars, it requires a non federal dollar. And so there have been over $5 billion raised to match that $2 billion to put those 32 million acres on the ground. And it takes a lot of partners. I think through that program there's over 6,000 partners that have participated in that program. So our teams are constantly looking for federal, non federal, nonprofit, local organizations to partner with to get that habitat on the ground. It is a daunting task to conservation.

[Steve Rinella]

What's the way that it might happen? Meaning, let's say I'm a. All right, okay. And I have a thousand acres and I have some wetlands. And I'm like, man, I also love to hunt ducks and I like to make money on my farm. And I come and I come and say to du, how can, how can I be of assistance or what can I do? Like, so what measures are of disposal?

[Karen Waldrip]

Lots of things. Everything from permanent protection, putting a conservation easement on that property so that it's, you know, always in whatever that is as far as the number, percentage of wetlands and grass.

[Steve Rinella]

And you guys help with that process.

[Karen Waldrip]

And we help with that process. And those easements are held by the U.S. fish and Wildlife Service. And those were some of the duck stamp dollars I was talking about earlier. Other things might be, well you know, they might be interested in a conservation reserve program where they take out, and that's through nrcs. And so they take out a certain percentage of their production and they put it in, they plant it in grass or in something else. And so they might do that. Or so it's like a rental payment or they might do eqip. Eqip, eqip. And they might do rental payments for. Not rental payments. They might do different cost share to try to improve their property for the conservation values on there. So there's all sorts of different farm bill programs that they could be interested in. And so our team will walk through all these different programs that they have. And again, Ducks Unlimited has a lot as well, a lot of programs as well, that as long as they're doing these activities and we're cost sharing for those conservation activities, as long as they continue to do those, we're in that, like annual, year to year contract, but that permanent protection is the best thing we can do. And our director of operations in the Prairie Pothole region, Johan Walker, he's always saying, all right, we've got to slow down the pace of conversion and increase the pace of production. But there's lots of other tools, you know, in between that we can use that, that benefit farmers and ranchers and help improve their. What they're getting out of it. But then also for. For wildlife and waterfowl as well, is.

[Steve Rinella]

Currently the number one risk to wetlands.

[Karen Waldrip]

Cropland conversion in the Prairie Pothole region? Yeah, absolutely.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. It's a landowner, a farmer is incentivized by prices, whatever, to convert, to increase and convert land to ag.

[Karen Waldrip]

And so that's.

[Steve Rinella]

And you have a way to try to soften.

[Karen Waldrip]

Absolutely.

[Cal]

It'd be the same thing like, sorry, Ducks Unlimited farm bill programs, nrcs, they are going to also try to make sure that that farmer knows the available incentives.

[Steve Rinella]

That's right, yeah.

[Cal]

To not produce crops on intermittent wetlands.

[Steve Rinella]

So it doesn't need to just cost ways to make it, that it doesn't just cost the land.

[Randall]

You can do the right thing for wildlife without affecting the bottom line.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah. Because a lot of times the wetlands, even though it might be dry, might look dry that year kind of thing. That that's not going to be your most productive soil for. For crop. It is going to be your most productive for wildlife, but not necessarily for crop. Those are usually not the same thing. And so the education and working with them and a lot of our farmers, they love seeing the ducks on the landscape and they love being able to help and it's like, okay, you gotta.

[Cal]

Help my bottom number that as much as driving in a straight line.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah. Well, think about it. It's a pain in the butt to go around that wetland, and you're driving this big equipment and everything. It's a pain in the butt to go around those wetlands. So, yeah, we have to find ways to incentivize landowners to want to keep wetlands and certain grasslands intact. And there's lots of ways to do that. And it's through these great partnerships, our federal and state partnerships and partnerships with the landowners that make it happen.

[Cal]

What do you think about North American Grasslands Conservation Act? You think that's getting towards a workable state, something?

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah, it's interesting because it's gone back and forth, back and forth. And I know a lot of it's being modeled off of North America. Yeah. Off of naca. And what works necessarily in this program? Will it work here? And so I think it's definitely evolving and becoming something that, I mean, it's critical. There's lots of grassland species that need protection. And you can see, I mean, the three billion bird report, right. You have a lot of species that have been declining, you know, since the 1970s, and a lot of them are grassland species. Now, NACA, there's a lot that goes into grasslands as well through NACA funding. And when we look at some of those priority landscapes that we want to protect, a lot of them, we look at duck pairs, right. How many breeding. How many pairs of breeding ducks are going to be in that landscape. And we want to target the highest numbers, you know, the highest. The 100 duck pairs. But with that come, like, 15 to 20 different other grassland bird species that use that same landscape. So it's not just one thing that we're looking at or the other, any kind of conservation funding opportunities that we can provide that have these great public private partnerships associated with them for conservation. The more of that that we can get, I think the better off we're going to.

[Cal]

And that's where, like, some of the social cost of using wetland comes in. Because most people are like, well, wetland is only a wetland if it's wet.

[Steve Rinella]

Yes.

[Cal]

And then also that fringe area around the wetland with the grass, like, there's a lot of waterfowl species that. That nest in that.

[Karen Waldrip]

That's right.

[Cal]

Right.

[Karen Waldrip]

And how far are they gonna go?

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep.

[Cal]

But it's like. Well, it's not wet.

[Karen Waldrip]

Conservation is not a simple. It's not a simple thing. And it really takes a large group of people kind of Pulling in the harness together to make it happen.

[Steve Rinella]

You know who I think deserves a little credit? I make a lot of jokes about golf. Well, very famous golfer sat in that seat sitting there.

[Karen Waldrip]

Really? Which one? My husband, Brian Harmon. All right.

[Steve Rinella]

The Butcher Brian the Butcher Harmon.

[Karen Waldrip]

Brian the Butcher Harmon.

[Steve Rinella]

Anyways, you know who deserves some credit is the golf course by my house. Yeah, it's a duck factory.

[Karen Waldrip]

Really?

[Steve Rinella]

All those little ponds they made. Yeah, every one of those ponds. And they have like some great nesting success. Every one of those ponds full of chicks also. So do they fake ponds?

[Karen Waldrip]

Do they put a lot of like edge around that pond? Do they, Are they shallow? Did they, did they do that specifically.

[E]

A wetland before it was a golf course?

[Karen Waldrip]

That's what I'm wondering. That's where I'm wondering.

[Steve Rinella]

These are like, like sp. There's a bunch of spring fed ponds and they do they kick off a lot of ducks, huh?

[Cal]

But when you see that little white ball go high in the air, it's worth it.

[Steve Rinella]

Right in there. Did you guys weigh in on the Ducks Unlimited? Weigh in on this? The, the sort of political ping pong ball of Wotus Waters of the United States?

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah, waters of the United States.

[Steve Rinella]

So can I, can I take, try to. Can we test my ability to explain this?

[Karen Waldrip]

Okay, go for it.

[Steve Rinella]

The United States, the federal government declares like sovereignty over certain waterways. Meaning like, like for instance, if a private landowner owns both sides of the Mississippi, they can't say no more shipping up and down my river. Right. Because the, the US has jurisdiction over the waterway. And there's a political ping pong about how far upriver into non navigable or barely navigable WATER does the U.S. have jurisdiction? And could there be a thing where U.S. jurisdiction extends all the way up into the headwaters in the wetlands? And they could exercise, the federal government could exercise some management rights over marshes and wetlands that form the rivers. So extending up the Mississippi beyond navigation, but up into the sources of the Mississippi and use that as a way to preserve wetlands. And when I say a political ping pong ball, it seems to like always be in the news of a new administration interpreting it differently. One administration would be like, oh no, it goes all the way to the marsh. And the other next administration, no, it ends at navigability. And it seems to be always in the news. It's never quite resolved. This is a political hot. This is a hot issue. What's been your guys attitude about this conversation?

[Karen Waldrip]

So what we've been trying to do is working with the states on what their wetland regulations and Laws and rules will be. Because that's really where at the end of the day, because you're right, it's this ping pong back and forth, back and forth. But if you're working with the states and working with the landowners in those rules in those states, that's probably how we're going to be able to kind of get through this as far as.

[Steve Rinella]

So you can take action now. That doesn't get done or undone every time the political winds change.

[Karen Waldrip]

That's right.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep. Because states have their own regulations now, especially with the latest change.

[Steve Rinella]

So when I was talking about lobbying earlier, Ducks Unlimited will at times try to influence regulation about wetland development.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah. We work a lot more, I'd say, on the funding for wetlands conservation and from that standpoint.

[Steve Rinella]

So you spend more time with the carrot than the stick.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah, a lot more time with the carrot than the stick. Because it gets you a lot further. We've in the last five years developed an ag strategic plan. If you look at everywhere that is important for waterfowl, if you take our landscape conservation priorities and I put that map down in front of you and then you took an ag map in the United States and you laid that over it, it's almost exactly the same.

[Steve Rinella]

It's like if you take the tax on cattle.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Karen Waldrip]

What were you talking about earlier? Exactly. More rural people. Yeah. So it is critical that we have strong relationships and partnerships with, with, with. With the ag and ranching.

[Steve Rinella]

So metro Chicago doesn't pop up on your wall.

[Karen Waldrip]

Not too much.

[Steve Rinella]

You're important for Duck Zone.

[Karen Waldrip]

No.

[Cal]

I'm sure there's a strong DU chapter there, though.

[Karen Waldrip]

There's a lot of strong DU chapters.

[Steve Rinella]

That's a good point about. It's an interesting point about the need to. The need to have the ability to work with agricultural interests. If you look at like where birds are coming from, it's agricultural landscapes. So I imagine if an organization was just sort of perceived as being vehemently anti ag, you might wind up having a hard time to work in ag country.

[Karen Waldrip]

Might be hard to work in ag country. So there are disincentives that I think are important to keep and incentives that are important to keep. And I think it's a balance of those two things to ensure we get that right outcome. So there are disincentives in place like Swamp Buster and everything else that are important. But what that is is it's keeping. If you're a farmer and you're in Farm bill programs. Right. And you're getting something from a farm Bill program, you can't plow under a wetland or drain a wetland. So that's type a, type of a disincentive. But then incentives for some of the things I was talking about with conservation reserve program or equip or wetland reserve easement, where you're putting your land permanently in an easement protection or, you know.

[Cal]

It'S like there's not a necessarily like a one size fits all never deal too, because between like the state and the federal programs, you could have the ability to leave that intermittent wetland alone most of the time. But you could, you could take hay off of it, you could graze it, but at certain times of year that, that fit in. Got it with the breeding nesting program.

[Karen Waldrip]

Glad you brought that up. And it's not a one size fits all. I mean, that's a really good point. And, and so each state is going to be different. So North Dakota, South Dakota, what programs are available, what's allowed, not allowed.

[Cal]

And sometimes it's your flyaway too. Right. Like if you're in an area that's trying to bring back sandhill crane.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep.

[Cal]

Certain properties along that flyway are gonna pay more for all these programs.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep. And the great thing about these programs and even an easement, you know, they're voluntary, of course, but if you put an easement on your property, the landowner can still use the land and it's. But then it's that being able to be there for habitat for waterfowl and other species for generations.

[Cal]

Yeah. A buddy of mine, big farmer in South Dakota, but he like, it's the most awesome feel good story ever. He started just getting into these programs because it made more financial sense than trying to farm this stuff. And he's like, yeah, we remove the diesel fuel, we remove the seed cost, the nitrogen costs, all these costs to farm something marginal, to not get a return. But we also don't have to turn our steering wheel. Started picking up a couple of bucks for different things, saw some, some good improvement, saw crazy stuff happen. Like all of a sudden they had prairie chickens on the ranch. And it's like, it's because we were in this state program. Oh, super cool that, you know, incentivized native grasses. So you saw good drought tolerance increase, fire tolerance increase. And then the other cool thing that they saw increase was just family interest in the farm because it's like, well, 20 years ago there was nothing else to look at other than the Thoreau you were hoeing, basically. And now there's like deer running around, there's lots of birds, there's raptors, all sorts of wildlife increase. And the interest level from, you know, the small family members who don't really care about the financial part of things. They're like, oh, this is a cool place to be.

[Steve Rinella]

But then you get one of those guys drives around pissed off all the time. They're paying them not to farm.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah, well, it's the farm farm the best and leave the rest. Right. But I love coming to the prairies and listening to the stories, you know, so cattle and ducks go really well together. They both need grass and everything. And so I come. I love coming to the prairies and listening to the testimonials of some of these folks that, you know, drained a wetland years ago with their great grandfather, but then are putting it back and they love the family interest and the kids are enjoying it. But then, you know, or some of them that decide, I'm going to, we're going into ranching and they convert, you know, from farming from crop to ranching and takes a ton of money for them to do it. And they're probably losing money and not always in the best spot. But then there's programs that are available to help them out or putting in practices on that working farm that are going to protect wetlands. So it's pretty fun to listen to the testimonials just like you were just saying to your buddy of what happens too when they join some of these programs.

[Steve Rinella]

I got two quick Ducks unlimited banquet stories for you.

[Karen Waldrip]

Oh, I love these. I can't wait.

[Steve Rinella]

One time I was in the market for a new fish finder.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And I was able to buy a. I was buying it anyway. Buying it anyway. But I was able to buy a thousand dollar gift card to Bass pro shops for $700.

[Karen Waldrip]

Isn't that great?

[Steve Rinella]

It was like, I basically bought a thousand dollars for $700.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah. Don't you love it?

[Steve Rinella]

My other story is, and you got.

[Cal]

A bottomless beer for $10.

[Karen Waldrip]

And you got a bottomless beer.

[Steve Rinella]

My other story was, this is my boat buddy, Ron. He was at one of those and he was drunk and he was bidding on something, but he was in his mind, he was buying what was up next.

[Karen Waldrip]

Oh, no.

[Steve Rinella]

So he's looking at what's up next.

[Cal]

He's like, I can't believe nobody else is going.

[Steve Rinella]

He's like bidding and bidding and he wins. And his buddy's like, what the hell you want that? Because they're like, in another state. He's like, what do you want that picnic table for so bad oh, my God. Whatever it was.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

He's like, no. I was. That'll happen.

[Randall]

That'll happen.

[Karen Waldrip]

I love our banquets and really get so many supporters through them.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, man.

[Karen Waldrip]

People. It's like carnival. Well, they come for the party, but then they stay for the ducks. Right?

[Steve Rinella]

It's like a carnival for adults.

[Karen Waldrip]

It is. It's a lot of fun.

[Steve Rinella]

Is that still functioning good?

[Karen Waldrip]

Like, oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Because Covid probably killed it for a while, right?

[Karen Waldrip]

You would have thought, man, our. That team, they are absolutely incredible. David Schuesler, he's the chief of that team. They pivoted so fast, they're like, okay, guys, we're gonna be shut down. I'm thinking, oh, we'll be shut down for a couple weeks. It all come back. He had different ideas. So they went to all this online stuff almost immediately.

[Steve Rinella]

Did they really?

[Karen Waldrip]

Like. And everyone's sitting at home looking for something to do. And we had all sorts of different interactive ways for people to join online. And then as soon as we could go back outside, they were setting up big tents and, you know, going state by state, they. I don't know if they slept much during that time, but they were actually able to keep our event system rolling. And then we had our major donors. I cannot tell you how important our volunteers and our major donors are. Like, I was talking about all the match for all these programs. I think we had $176 million in public dollars last year that our team brought in. But that takes a bunch of match. And our donors are incredible. And our philanthropists that give. But then also everybody that goes to an event and the money that that first dollar comes in an event, and the dollars that they spend there, how that goes to conservation. It's a pretty incredible organization. It's been a lot of fun the last 5 years and looking for many more. But I didn't realize before I came to work for Ducks Unlimited, that passion that is with all those volunteers, with the staff, with our major donors, and they really came through. In Covid, our major donors stepped up like they never had before to make sure that Ducks Unlimited was going to be able to make it through it.

[Steve Rinella]

So my friend Mark here in town, he made a rule a couple years ago that he lets a lot of people hunt on his place. But you can't hunt his place unless you're a DU member.

[Karen Waldrip]

I like that. That's great. He's got something there.

[Steve Rinella]

No, I know. Which reminds me, I took a. I gotta make sure my kids are still up. Cause I kind of Extended it to my kids by. I gotta make sure I didn't violate his rule. Cause went out there for the. I better double check. You might see a couple memberships being later on today.

[Cal]

That's why you just got to get that lifetime membership right now.

[Karen Waldrip]

I happen to have a membership form right here.

[Randall]

Now you'll never have to worry about it again.

[Steve Rinella]

I did like I did lifetime at Turkey Federation. I did lifetime at Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, But I should do my lifetime at du. My next lifetime should be du. Lifetime.

[Karen Waldrip]

Well, you know, or. Or you can just annually, you know, support Beck's Unlimited.

[Cal]

That's the caveat of the lifetime membership.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Because a lot of people think they're done.

[Karen Waldrip]

No, no, there's no lifetime membership. It's. You're never done.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. How much do you guys get? How much public money from all you guys efforts? That's.

[Karen Waldrip]

Last year it was around 175, 76 million. Our team spends a lot of time writing a lot of grants. And it's like I said, it's diverse. We don't just one type of funding. And that's something that we all need to be thinking about are what are those funding opportunities, like all the other benefits that wetlands provide, what types of funding opportunities and streams can come from that as well, because we need to be able to diversify. Unfortunately, we probably aren't going to have as many hunters sitting around the table in however many years. I hope I'm wrong. But how do we get other people to understand the importance of the conservation work? Because I do think sportsmen are our first conservationists. And so how do we encourage other people to have that same interest in the. Like whether it's turkeys or mule deer or National Deer association, whoever it is.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, that's a lot of interest because there's only a million duck hunters.

[Karen Waldrip]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

You guys did 175 million public dollars, but.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

What's that?

[Karen Waldrip]

Well, I mean, as far as duck hunters, you know, and how many members we have, there's probably more duck hunters, but you're right.

[Steve Rinella]

What I'm saying is it's like a lot of. It's a lot of per. Like, because you know, how many duck stamps get bought.

[Randall]

I was gonna say, like, I've. You always hear people talk about, oh, anybody can buy a duck stamp. I'm curious how many.

[Steve Rinella]

It's five people.

[Randall]

Well, that's my suspicion, but I'm wondering if you have any insight.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, Max Bar to buys one for his dog.

[Randall]

Yeah. Well, there's people that buy I buy several.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah. Because I want one to keep and then I want one that I've got.

[Randall]

I buy multiples because I forgot I already bought one. Yeah.

[Karen Waldrip]

I lose them or. Yeah, that. That too.

[Steve Rinella]

But I. I think it's probably. I mean, there are exceptions. I. I feel like it's a. Probably a pretty clean.

[Karen Waldrip]

I don't know. Because there. I was really surprised when I did the duck stamp judging last year, which I thought was like the coolest thing ever, by the way. I didn't realize how cool it was. But there were a lot of art enthusiasts that were kind of like chiming in on the online thing. I went and looked at it later.

[Steve Rinella]

Really?

[Karen Waldrip]

Not hunters that are not hunters now. I don't know what.

[Randall]

So we'll count all 10 of them.

[Karen Waldrip]

We'll count all 10 of them. But it is. I mean, it is. The majority is going to be hunters and have been doing it, you know, for since what, the first one. Ding Darling in 1934. Should have that off the top of my head. But. But it's mostly going to be your duck hunters.

[Steve Rinella]

You know what Cal and I are going to do? He doesn't know this yet, but when we retire, I got a couple things on my list that I'm going to do with my retirement project.

[Cal]

We're going to get you a dog.

[Steve Rinella]

No, I'm going to try to establish a. I'm going to try to establish a universal blaze orange requirement of a hat. No more than a hat hat. A hat.

[Karen Waldrip]

A hat orange hat.

[Randall]

I've seen quite a few Montana hunters out there already are on board with that.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Not because. Because when you're wearing a vest and you're trying to change your clothes, it's just too much. It's a hat. A hat's great. See that hat Orange.

[Cal]

I know. The hat's got the same issue, though. It's like every time I'm always turning.

[E]

When you get cold.

[Cal]

Yep, yep.

[Karen Waldrip]

Putting something else on.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm writing a book about how it's okay to hate Shakespeare.

[Karen Waldrip]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

And then I want to. Then I want to work on Cal and I want to work on a public service thing to get the water fouling community to take field care of their ducks more seriously.

[Cal]

Spread.

[Steve Rinella]

As you demonstrated today, they are exceptionally generous with their conservation dollars. But I think that as a group, I have like. As a group, I can't think of a more egregious. And I'm like, I like the hunted ducks yesterday. Geese and ducks. I can't think of a more egregious. Group of people when it comes to utilization of the resource.

[Karen Waldrip]

Really?

[Cal]

Well, you remember the dinner that we had?

[Steve Rinella]

I can't think of a more egregious group, a more generous but egregious group of people.

[Cal]

The dinner that we had when we, when we came out for the, the survey release two years ago, like, if there's just more of that going on, like, people are like, oh, here's my recipe, here's what I do. More of that type of sharing that's pretty darn limited in the waterfowl community field.

[Karen Waldrip]

Or are you saying once they.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm saying utilization of.

[E]

You gotta like explain.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. Come on.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, okay. For instance. Well, not for instance. Here's the thing that I can.

[Cal]

Looking for ways to use the documents.

[Steve Rinella]

I couldn't believe that our state did this. Our state used to have salvage. We have salvage requirements in this state. Okay. Many states have salvage requirements. They actually lowered the salvage requirement. Meaning on a mallard sized bird, you were required to keep the thighs, you're required to keep the breast meat and the thighs. And one day they all sudden said like, you don't, you know, like now it's okay just to throw that in the garbage.

[Cal]

You got to keep the brass you don't have to retain.

[Steve Rinella]

But I'm saying like, like among. I think it's triggered by a bunch of things. There's the, there's the strictly enforced and I'm not saying you should get away with it. The strictly enforced possession limit thing where people like if you're out hunting ducks for a week, but you can only have three days of possession, I think it inspires a lot of people to try to find ways to offload ducks. And there's just so many stories of guys looking off bridges and there's hundreds of snow geese carcasses. Like it's just like it just. I like as a community, I think the waterfowl community as a community is, is very poor about utilizing the meat from the birds.

[Karen Waldrip]

And I have not, not wanting to.

[Steve Rinella]

Do like, not wanting to do any kind of work.

[Randall]

You shouldn't feel compelled to, to agree with him.

[Karen Waldrip]

No, no, no, I'm not going to. You know, I have not seen that. However, what I will say. No, I haven't. Honestly.

[Cal]

You should read the comments. I'll pluck a duck and put it on Instagram. And you should read the hateful comments about how, how much time that takes the offense that, that someone would take the time to pluck a duck.

[Karen Waldrip]

Why do they care if you Pluck the duck.

[Cal]

I. It. If the Internet. Yes.

[Karen Waldrip]

That doesn't make. But you know, there are things that. But I think to your point, of recipes and this and we do a lot of stuff in the magazine and online. We could do it with our. We could do it probably with our podcast.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm not blaming. I'm not blaming du for this. I'm not saying someday I want to do like a public service thing about, like how darks it's gonna be called. Ducks taste really good legs and wings.

[Karen Waldrip]

Well, you know, there used to be the old joke of, you know, the best way to cook a goose, you know, you put it on this cedar board and then you throw in and then you keep the board. Right?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, that.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep. So. Which is totally not true. I have eaten some damn good geese and some damn good ducks over the last however many years of my life. And it is in the preparation of it and everything else. Just like, I mean, you know, I hear a lot of, you know, even deer hunters, well, there's a lot of stuff they gotta cut through on the. On the shoulder. So I don't keep the shoulder meat. Now, hold on a second. So you could do this, you could grind it up. So there's all sorts of things that we could all learn from each other if maybe we had that better community of here are things that you can do. I mean, squirrel hunters, a lot of squirrel hunters are like, oh, it's a lot of work to clean a fox squirrel. They're so much harder than gray squirrels. I'm like, well, then don't shoot the damn fox squirrel. If you don't want to clean, don't shoot it.

[Cal]

Go down to the butcher shop, spend $60 on the nicest ribeye steak you can find, and then cover it in hair and bile and let's yum. And then tell me what you think.

[Steve Rinella]

You know what I regret? I regret. I regret bringing that up and acting like that's your problem. I feel like I ruined the whole show. But I want to re approach it.

[Karen Waldrip]

I'm just saying it's pro, you know.

[Steve Rinella]

But I want to re approach it. I want to say this. I want to have Phil remove all that, and it'll just be me saying that, man, a well handled duck is damn good. Is just really good. It is really good.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep, it is. It is phenomenal.

[Steve Rinella]

And when you take geese breasts and make pastrami, it's really, really good. That's all.

[Karen Waldrip]

That's all.

[Steve Rinella]

Take all that out, Phil.

[Cal]

Reuben sandwich.

[Steve Rinella]

It seemed like I kind of Ruined the whole show, didn't it?

[Randall]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Karen Waldrip]

Just picking on duck hunters. That's all I'm saying.

[Steve Rinella]

No, but I was praising duck hunters.

[Karen Waldrip]

I'm just teasing about.

[Steve Rinella]

I was praising them about the. The. How. How generous and dedicated they are.

[Cal]

My litmus test is, though, like, when somebody's like, oh, yeah, you like to hunt ducks? Well, you should come hunt. I'm like, cool. How do you cook them?

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Seriously.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Cal]

And. And to this day, one of the best duck hunting connections I've ever made was from that exact conversation. Guy being like, well, this is what we do. And I was like, okay, we can talk more.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Karen Waldrip]

So duck is really good.

[Steve Rinella]

Far be it for me to stereotype, but I'll tell you, you want to see some. The ones I know, the Cajuns are some duck eating.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

They are duck prepared sons of man.

[Cal]

Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

I mean, they eat the beak. That's that. See, I'm trying to go positive. Yeah. I'm trying to be like, du and go, carrot not stick.

[Karen Waldrip]

That's right.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm trying to go positive.

[Karen Waldrip]

That's right.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. God. Ruined the whole show. Is that bad, Phil? When I brought it up, does it seem like a, like, kind of deflated everything?

[Cal]

Well, there have been occurrences in the past that I think you probably should have had that reaction to. I don't think this is.

[Randall]

I actually think. I actually think saying that you're going this.

[Cal]

This time.

[Steve Rinella]

This was the line calling this the.

[Randall]

Eighth for the eighth time, saying that you've ruined the show. I think is doing more.

[Cal]

It's adding probably Christmas is coming up.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, my God. Just dig the hole deeper. As we were on the way down here, Cal and I were talking about this issue.

[Cal]

Yes. Yeah, that was the deal.

[Steve Rinella]

I came in the room with it on my mind.

[Cal]

You know, there's just like an anecdote.

[Steve Rinella]

Someone had shared an anecdote.

[Karen Waldrip]

And I wonder if it's a local thing that you're seeing here. I think it's a local thing. Like, I. I promise you, I hunt mostly in the south, but I've hunted other places as well, and I. I don't see that. I see it as like, everyone comes back to the duck camp, and what are we gonna have? It's gonna be duck. I mean, you know, that's awesome.

[Cal]

And it's cooked 100, but I think it's regional cultures. Right. And there's, you know, like, you know, it's like people who don't have the experience or they're trying to get into it. And they don't already even do what a lot of us would would. You know, they're, they're preparing things out of the box versus cooking something. You know, they're, they're very instruction based. Like they have a very hard time grasping any sort of bird.

[Karen Waldrip]

Last time I checked, everybody wants to be like meat eater and they want to, you know, I mean, I'm all joking aside, you guys do a really good job of bringing that to the table. Right? Literally to the table. As far as, you know, that importance and that full cycle and what you do, I think, you know, you Ducks unlimited, other people like that, whatever the game species is talking about, that, that importance of being off the landscape and it. Providing that wonderful protein that we all crave so much.

[Steve Rinella]

Excellent. That's good.

[Karen Waldrip]

See how I made it?

[Cal]

Positive Carrot it.

[Steve Rinella]

No, it's good. We were talking about the other day, what someone needs to make an invention.

[Karen Waldrip]

Of is that besides the flat tree.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, besides I already invented that. Is a machine. If you could come up with this, it would be a machine that you put ducks into.

[Karen Waldrip]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

And you turn the machine on in the morning, you got duck sausage sticks waiting for you on the other end.

[E]

Good luck with that.

[Karen Waldrip]

I like it. I'm trying to figure out how to make that happen.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, you wake up in the morning and just. That machine's shut down and it's just, just pepperoni sticks, man.

[Karen Waldrip]

Let me tell you, I am the most popular person at Christmas right now because I have a lot of. Of duck sausage. And it is so freaking good.

[Steve Rinella]

When Kyle and I were talking, we were talking about this very thing and I was saying, like, it doesn't matter. Any idea about whether you like ducks or not. Everybody likes pepperoni sticks.

[Karen Waldrip]

That's right.

[Steve Rinella]

So if you go duck hunting, get all your duck breasts, put them in a pile and make a bunch of pepperoni sticks. They're damn good because, like, everybody likes those.

[Karen Waldrip]

Putting up, you know, put a bunch of, you know, honey in there, make them sweet.

[Steve Rinella]

So then at the end of the duck season, you got 20 pounds of pepperoni stick sticks. You drive around eating, eating. Do that.

[Karen Waldrip]

There you go. They make great Christmas gifts. Everybody wants.

[Steve Rinella]

There you go. Pepperoni stick. Yeah.

[Cal]

You want to get crazy pickling Brian afterwards.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, I never heard. Oh, dude. Really?

[Cal]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Pickled pepperoni sticks.

[Cal]

Yeah, pickle, pickle. The sausage, extra salt.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, oh, you're right. Because like in the old days, you go into a bar and you'd have the sausage in the pickle jar.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Good stuff, man.

[E]

Stick your whole hand.

[Steve Rinella]

Since I quit drinking. I forgot about that. And the really good bar would have eggs in a pickle jar. They'd have sausages in a pickle jar, turkey gizzards.

[Karen Waldrip]

Did you not have chicken feet and stuff like that?

[Steve Rinella]

Not where I grew up, no. No, no. We ate a lot of smoke stuff.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

But pickling wasn't huge in the Midwest.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah, no.

[Steve Rinella]

Great. Anything. What else? Is there anything I didn't ask you about?

[Karen Waldrip]

I don't know. There's all sorts of neat things. We could play this game all day.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Probably a lot of things I didn't ask you about, but is there any, like, super pressing thing that I should have. I should have brought up?

[Karen Waldrip]

No, I think we covered a lot of great stuff. It's been fun.

[Steve Rinella]

It's been educational.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Cuz, man, I hate any kind of story about, you know, wildlife going downhill over the years. And it's distressing to think of all that wetlands loss.

[Karen Waldrip]

It is. It is very distressing. And so I think it's. It's obviously what we do at Ducks Unlimited. We think about it every day because it is. We, you know, part of our mission and our vision is to make sure that it's here for that waterfowl are here for many generations to enjoy.

[Steve Rinella]

When you crystal ball it, do you think, what's your prediction, you know, like, in 100 years, are people gonna hunt ducks?

[Karen Waldrip]

Heck, yeah. They're gonna hunt ducks in 100 years. Absolutely. And we're gonna have waterfowl fill in the skies too. And it's because of hunters. It's because of, you know, conservation enthusiasts, a lot of reasons. Organizations like Ducks Unlimited and many other conservation organizations, we're gonna have it.

[Steve Rinella]

So in 100 years, they'll be driving around eating duck pepperoni sticks and Brian.

[Karen Waldrip]

Love it.

[Steve Rinella]

Four pintails.

[Cal]

Yeah, there's a great article, came out a long time ago. You probably read it. But there's this guy's talking about his lamenting, living in a big city, and he's missing waterfowl season. But, you know, life has him working in a big city, and he steps out onto the subway platform and there's a via geese going over, and he's looking up at this via geese. Then he, for whatever reason, kind of scans the crowd out there and finds the one other person going like this. He's like, that was my waterfowl hunter. But, you know, we need folks in the. In the big cities to clue in on stuff like this too, so.

[Steve Rinella]

So let's do. Let's do a checklist. Like, if you're going. If you're a duck hunter, you got to buy your duck stamp.

[Karen Waldrip]

Got to buy your duck stamp.

[Steve Rinella]

So you got to do that anyways. And that's like that. That's a lot of funding for wetlands.

[Karen Waldrip]

Absolutely.

[Steve Rinella]

If you're duck hunting, you should probably join Ducks Unlimited 100%. Because if you go and duck hunt and you want to get ducks, if you want to get ducks, you need wetlands. And Ducks Unlimited. Does wetlands work?

[Karen Waldrip]

You got it.

[Steve Rinella]

So there's that. If you like to have fun, go to the banquets.

[Karen Waldrip]

They are a lot of fun.

[Steve Rinella]

Like I said, it's a carnival for grownups.

[Karen Waldrip]

And you can win a picnic table.

[Steve Rinella]

Dude, you can win, like, a truck. I mean, how many guys you know, have been hunting their whole lives don't have guns from the DU banquet?

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah. Or prints or whatever. Yeah. My silverware is Ducks Unlimited silverware everywhere.

[Steve Rinella]

Sure.

[Karen Waldrip]

For Pete's sake.

[Steve Rinella]

My old man had a Ithaca. He had an Ithaca feather light, 20 gauge. And guess where that came from? The DU banquet. So do that. Go to the banquets and hang out. And then if you got it, if you could swing some extra jingle in your Duck Hunter, like make some donations up above and beyond your membership. Because the membership's pretty inexpensive.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yes, it is.

[Steve Rinella]

It's like. It's like a foot in the door.

[Karen Waldrip]

But in the door. And it's critically. It's very important. But, you know, and it's. We leverage those dollars three, four, five times to try to get as much conservation on the ground. So our leverage rate on donor dollars is very high.

[Steve Rinella]

Yep. And as you mentioned, like, for a lot of these programs, it's good to have private money because it helps you. It helps you activate grand.

[Karen Waldrip]

There's public dollars. Yeah. Without those private funds, we can't go after NACA dollars or any farm bill, any of those other dollars, because it takes that. That private match as well. And one thing I'll tell you we didn't talk about that I know is really important to you is, you know, from the land conservation standpoint. We do. Our lands program is very robust. So we do hold conservation easements. Most of a lot of them go to the US Fish and Wildlife Service, but we do hold easements as well. But then we'll also buy land, and sometimes it's to, you know, conserve it as far as from a standpoint of restoration efforts and everything. But then a lot of it is for facilitated acquisitions for public hunting. And so just in the last five years, just shy of 50,000 acres that we purchased and then are conveying to state and we convey to state agencies for wildlife management areas, for wildlife management areas or to U.S. fish and Wildlife Service for refuge, for hunting. So a lot of public access opportunities. I know that one. That's.

[Steve Rinella]

And that's like, that's willing seller, willing buyer.

[Karen Waldrip]

That's right.

[Steve Rinella]

Buying land is for sale.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep. And it's a facilitated acquisition because a lot of times states, if they want to add it to, there's a piece of property for sale and they want to add it to their wildlife management area, the refuge, they can't necessarily move as quickly as we can and the sellers wants to get it sold. So we'll buy it, hold it and then convey it to the public agency.

[Steve Rinella]

That's a really great thing because I've been, over the years, I've been made aware a number of times of like, CAL will send me something like really great strategic conservation purchases. But it's hard to be that nimble.

[Karen Waldrip]

It is, it's.

[Steve Rinella]

Do you. I mean, like, it's like for sale and then you're trying to get some agency to figure it out and you know, they got to value it in a way that isn't realistic or whatever. And then, and then so to have people that can identify like a real hot conservation hotspot and boom, get in there and know how to make deals and then have the time to then.

[Karen Waldrip]

Facilitate and because, you know, we've got great donors, a lot of them are interested in that land conservation and getting it into public hunting access. And so while we're holding it, they'll help with the costs of holding that property before we can convey it. So there's, it's a, it's a really, it's a great service that we can make sure.

[Cal]

And that's kind of a sticky thing too sometimes with membership. Right. Because like we were looking at a really cool project DU was doing in, in Iowa and it's like, well, yeah, we're buying the land and then eventually we're going to turn it over into, I think it was a wma. But first we're going to pull out this drain tile, we're going to do some noxious weed work. We're going to really like get it.

[Karen Waldrip]

Up to good quality.

[Cal]

Yeah, good quality. And so you're always kind of like balancing out like, yep, we did it. But land management takes time and you know, sometimes membership or just the public's like, well, where's the public access? We just bought It. Where is it?

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah. Or like, for example, with Koniznia, it's been a refuge in. Or it's going to the Red River National Wildlife Refuge in Louisiana. There's a piece of property, I think it's a little over 3,000 acres, and we've had it for several years, but we haven't been able to convey it to the U.S. fish and Wildlife Service because they had to get an expansion of the refuge in order to then take it. So that's like a federal thing. You have to go through that. So we've had to hold it for several years before we can convey it to them. So in its own.

[Steve Rinella]

Can I hunt that place while you're holding it?

[Karen Waldrip]

That place. And yeah, and so it is. It's not just an overnight sort of thing. And so to have that patience for people to realize that, hey, we might have to have it for a little bit before we're able to convey it is an important note. But I think it's an important program, and I think it's something that's really good to be able to do for public hunting access.

[Steve Rinella]

I got one last question for you. If God came down and he said you can either hunt only squirrels or only ducks for the rest of your life, what would you pick?

[Karen Waldrip]

I'm going to pick ducks.

[Steve Rinella]

You just saying that?

[Karen Waldrip]

I'm just saying that. I'm just saying that. No, I'm saying that. All right. My CEO, Adam Putnam. I love the ducks.

[Steve Rinella]

Let it be known that I said ducks.

[Karen Waldrip]

No, I absolutely love squirrel hunting. And I know it sounds funny. Like, how can you be that passionate about squirrel hunting? But.

[Steve Rinella]

Funniest thing in the world.

[Karen Waldrip]

It is a blast. And with dogs, man, you're out there with your. With your dog, but also, you can take kids, and that's my son. It was the first thing I did.

[Steve Rinella]

Squirrel.

[Karen Waldrip]

Where you get to.

[Steve Rinella]

Bullshit.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah, squirrel. I mean, you get to see.

[Steve Rinella]

You still get to talk.

[Karen Waldrip]

You can make as much noise as you want. No one's yelling at you, you know, blowing their duck call just so you'll quit talking, you know, that sort of thing. I mean, it's. It's a. I don't know. It's just so enjoyable. It's a big fan.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, we kind of introduced the technology into squirrel hunting. A couple of our friends that do it with dogs, but they were slow to adopt the binocular. Do you bring the binoculars?

[Karen Waldrip]

I bring binoculars. Absolutely, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

They were like, what? I'm like, man, they're finding the squirrel in the tree.

[Karen Waldrip]

Man, they are so good. So I'll train my dogs to go to the other side of the tree from me, so they'll push them around because they will hug on that tree. And then you're trying to go around, and it's going around the tree with you, you know, going. Staying out of sight. Well, get my dog, chase it to the other. Send it to the other side to chase the squirrel around.

[Steve Rinella]

So I met a. I hunted bluegrass spring bluegrous with a woman that. It's kind of very similar. You got. They're way up in the tree, and you're trying to find them in the spring. And she would lay down on her back in the woods. She would kind of like. It was mostly on hills, like steep country, so she'd go up a little ways so she's more like eye level with the canopy. And she would just lay on her back with binos. And she'd lay there 10 minutes and also be like, got it. And so when we go out, our friends that had squirrel dogs.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Me and my.

[Karen Waldrip]

They wouldn't take a.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, no. But I'd bring binos. And now we would just lay there. And after a while. Because my buddy Kevin, he'd always just look through his scope, and after a while, we got a couple of them to like, give in to the point that binos are. Not that binos are helpful for finding those suckers. But what I was getting at was there's no better feeling.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Than when you're just getting ready to walk away, and all of a sudden someone's like, got it.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

There's that little tail hair glowing and, you know, blowing on top of the branch or something. God has fun, man.

[Karen Waldrip]

Moved his ear just enough for someone to kill.

[Steve Rinella]

That's a good time doing that stuff. So you. You 22 or shotgun?

[Karen Waldrip]

So a lot. Most of the time I'll take a shotgun. I do bring a, you know, a.22 as well. But a lot of the places that I might go and hunt are smaller properties. And so I'm usually taking a. Taking a shotgun. But if I can get a nice clean shot with a.22, it makes it a lot easier getting that. Getting the shot out of him.

[Steve Rinella]

I gotta hook you up. My buddy Kevin Murphy to go out with him. He's a big squirrel dog.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah. He's in Kentucky.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. But he's been out with, like, he calls. He. He's got what he calls a war horse when he rides out, if he's hunting squirrels. For real.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

When he rides out he's got a.22, a shotgun, a baseball bat, and an axe.

[Karen Waldrip]

Oh, damn.

[E]

Too right.

[Karen Waldrip]

So you know Kevin Murphy? Like the Kevin Murphy West, Kentucky Small?

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, no, that's what I'm talking about with the binos and stuff. He's a. He's a woodsman.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

One time, and we had a swamp rabbit going to a hole in a tree.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

He goes over and cuts a sawbriar. I'm not kidding you. I've watched my own two eyes. Cuts a saw briar and snakes it up that hole. And he starts twirling it like a plumbing.

[Karen Waldrip]

Pulls that brick back up lots.

[Steve Rinella]

Pulls that rabbit back out of the hole. But what he uses that bat for is. Now then if there's a squirrel in a hollow, he'll just come up, he'll get. He'll get the bat off his warhorse and go over there and just wallop that tree with a bat.

[Karen Waldrip]

See if it chases it out. And then the axes, if all those fails, just cut down the tree.

[Steve Rinella]

He just has it with him, you know, he's. But yeah, he would get. He gets real serious and he. He got into riding those horses because he says one time he was just hunting on foot like an idiot, you know, and he sees some guys coming up the road on horses and he said their saddle bags were just stuffed, he says, just squirrel tails hanging out of the saddle bags. And he thought to himself, I need to get one.

[Karen Waldrip]

Let me tell you. You know, those dogs, they'll go up one. One mountain, like up one hill, down the other, up another. And then all of a sudden, they're striking and they're like, get here and get here now. And you're, you know, hoofing it up and down, up and down. So the horse. Yeah, it's not. I'm one of the idiots on foot.

[Steve Rinella]

But, you know, man, you gotta hunt with Kevin because you guys would have it. You guys be like two peas in a pot.

[Karen Waldrip]

Yeah. Yeah. Kevin and I go way back. Way back.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, okay. So.

[Karen Waldrip]

Oh, I know Kevin. Oh, yeah. Known him for years.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Butchie. Bad toe. He's got all those famous dogs, and he's got some.

[Karen Waldrip]

He has some good squirrel dogs. Some really good squirrel dogs.

[Steve Rinella]

All right.

[Karen Waldrip]

All right.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, thanks for coming on the show.

[Karen Waldrip]

There's a lot of fun.

[Steve Rinella]

Everybody good? Thank you. No, thanks so much.

[Karen Waldrip]

Thank you. Ra.