Ep. 649: Muzzleloader Blues

Summary

Podcast Summary: The MeatEater Podcast Episode: Ep. 649: Muzzleloader Blues
Release Date: January 13, 2025
Host: Steven Rinella

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Introduction to Muzzleloader Challenges (04:20 - 07:00)

In this episode, host Steven Rinella and co-host Seth delve into the intricacies and frustrations of using muzzleloaders for hunting. Seth humorously admits his struggles, stating, “I just don’t have the skills, man” (04:36). The conversation highlights the difficulties of mastering muzzleloaders compared to centerfire rifles, emphasizing the learning curve and reliability issues associated with muzzleloaders.

Listener Business Idea: Binocular Strap System (05:28 - 11:07)

A listener named Brian proposes an innovative binocular strap system aimed at enhancing stability during hunting. Seth introduces the idea, explaining, “You can use your bill again... holding a pair of binoculars” (05:28). Steven and Seth critically assess the feasibility, discussing potential drawbacks such as visibility and practicality. Steven quips, “It’s like putting blinders up” (06:52), while Seth elaborates on the mechanics and possible improvements. Despite initial skepticism, Seth encourages community feedback, stating, “Any feedback would be wonderful” (10:22).

Debate Class and Ethical Concerns (11:07 - 16:20)

The hosts address listener feedback regarding the ethics of training children in speech and debate without understanding their belief systems. Seth shares a poignant letter from a concerned father: “Your ability to win either side of a debate has given him the notion that he is never wrong” (14:50). This segment sparks a debate on the potential unintended consequences of developing persuasive skills without a moral framework. Steven acknowledges the concern, saying, “I think that happens” (13:15), leading to a thoughtful discussion on balancing skill development with ethical guidance.

Bear Spray: Misuse and Safety Issues (16:20 - 24:23)

Steven and Seth transition to a critical discussion on bear spray, prompted by listener Greg Fonts’ insights. Greg points out, “More people get sprayed by bear spray than bears get sprayed by bear spray” (19:02). The hosts recount alarming anecdotes, including a robbery in Three Forks, Montana, where the perpetrator used bear spray to blind victims before stealing money (19:20). Seth adds personal stories of accidental bear spray discharges, highlighting the dangers of improper storage and handling: “I’ve had two incidents of getting sprayed by bear spray, not bears” (19:55). They also discuss the broader implications of bear spray misuse in crimes and accidents, stressing the need for responsible usage.

Hunting and Fishing License Reciprocity (24:23 - 41:40)

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the complexities of reciprocity laws in hunting and fishing licenses across different states. Seth breaks down a convoluted case involving a Michigan resident hunting in Ohio without necessary licenses, illustrating the challenges and frustrations faced by hunters navigating varying state regulations. He explains, “If you can prove this man wrong, that’s my kind of reciprocity law” (41:40). The hosts discuss examples of states like Ohio, Michigan, California, and Montana, highlighting how reciprocity can either facilitate or hinder hunting activities based on each state’s policies. Steven summarizes, “It’s not catered to anyone” (41:40), underscoring the inconsistencies that complicate multi-state hunting endeavors.

Flintlock Muzzleloaders: Historical Practices and Modern Challenges (41:40 - 76:48)

Steven and Seth shift focus to the historical aspects of muzzleloading, comparing flintlock muzzleloaders to modern variants. They explore the technical differences, such as Seth’s desire for “exposed hammer percussion cap” and single triggers (68:22). The discussion includes the practical challenges of using flintlocks, like noise from set triggers scaring game and the difficulty of maintaining stealth (65:07). They reference historical accounts from “Old Grizzly,” detailing the hunting methods of early 1900s grizzlies in Western Canada, and critique the myth vs. reality of flintlock effectiveness. Seth muses, “They weren’t miracle workers with those things” (71:43), emphasizing the skill and precision required for successful muzzleloader hunts.

Personal Struggles and Emotional Reflections (77:05 - 89:07)

The episode takes a deeply personal turn as Seth shares his emotional struggles, revealing a low point in his life marked by feelings of inadequacy and fear of failing as a father. He confides, “It’s a low point in my life, really” (87:53), and discusses the impact of hunting challenges on his mental health. Steven offers empathetic support, suggesting a path forward, “It’s only up from here” (88:03). This candid conversation highlights the psychological toll that hunting and personal challenges can take, adding a layer of vulnerability to the episode.

Conclusion: Reflecting on Muzzleloader Hunting (89:07 - End)

The hosts wrap up the episode by revisiting the initial topic of muzzleloader hunting. Seth expresses his frustration with current hunting conditions and his aspiration to master flintlocks, humorously stating, “I am in the market for that... (long list of specifications)” (89:35). Steven reminisces about past successes with muzzleloaders, noting, “At one point in time, I killed more whitetails with a muzzleloader than a rifle” (61:41). They conclude with mutual encouragement to persevere through the challenges of muzzleloader hunting, promising to tackle more in future episodes.

Notable Quotes:

• Seth on mastering muzzleloaders: “I just don’t have the skills, man” (04:36).
• Listener Brian's binocular idea: “You clamp your fingers... pinching them” (06:42).
• Concerns about debate ethics: “Your ability to win either side of a debate has given him the notion that he is never wrong” (14:50).
• Bear spray misuse anecdote: “More people get sprayed by bear spray than bears get sprayed by bear spray” (19:02).
• Reciprocity law frustration: “If you can prove this man wrong, that’s my kind of reciprocity law” (41:40).
• Flintlock hunting realities: “They weren’t miracle workers with those things” (71:43).
• Seth’s personal struggle: “It’s a low point in my life, really” (87:53).

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Conclusion: Episode 649 of The MeatEater Podcast, "Muzzleloader Blues," offers an in-depth exploration of the challenges associated with muzzleloader hunting, the complexities of hunting regulations across states, and the broader implications of hunting tools like bear spray. Through engaging discussions, listener interactions, and personal reflections, Steven Rinella and Seth provide a comprehensive look into the multifaceted world of outdoor pursuits, blending technical insights with personal narratives to enrich the listener's understanding.

Transcript

[Stephen Rinella]

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[Seth]

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[Stephen Rinella]

Not representative of all clients and not a guarantee. Review Important [e-mail] Meater offer a subject.

[Seth]

To Terms and Conditions hey, American history Buffs, Hunting history buffs, listen up. We're back at it with another volume of our Meat Eaters American History series. In this edition, titled the Mountain Men 1806-1840, we tackle the Rocky Mountain beaver trade and dive into the lives and legends of fellows like Jim Bridger, Jed Smith and John Colter. This small but legendary fraternity of backwoodsmen helped define an era when the west represented not just unmapped territory, but untapped opportunity for those willing to endure some heinous and at times violent conditions. We explain what started the mountain man era and what ended it. We tell you everything you'd ever want to know about what the mountain men ate, how they hunted and trapped, what gear they carried, what clothes they wore, how they interact with Native Americans, how 10% of them died violent deaths, and even detailed descriptions of how they performed amputations on the fly. It's as dark and bloody and good as our previous volume about the white tailed deer skin trade, which is titled the Long Hunters 1761-1775. So again, this new Mountain man edition about the beaver skin trademark is available for pre order now wherever audiobooks are sold. It's called Meat Eaters American History the Mountain Men 1806-1840 by me, Stephen Rella this is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case, underwearless. The Meat Eater Podcast, you can't predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for elk, First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light.com f I r s t l I t e dot com this episode is going to be called Muzzleloader Blues. I, I have. Well, yeah, unless Seth's trying to launch new show called Taint Talk, but because he's been listening to a lot of health and wellness podcast. But Muzzleloader Blues, because once again I have failed to get it done, as they say, with my muzzleloader. Yeah, I just don't have the skills, man. Like, you know, might be the tool. I'm a rifle man. Let me the kind of center fire.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, yeah. I don't blame you.

[Seth]

It's got to be similar to like archery.

[Stephen Rinella]

Like you're not getting any further away.

[Seth]

Than you would in archery. You've got it, you got it close. But archery get to. You get to hunt before the gun hunter. Archery, you get first cracks and it's a rut. Muzzleloader, you get last cracks.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

Meaning people been terrorizing these poor animals and then you gotta, you try to further antagonize them.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

When they're kind of tuned into the, the. What's up?

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, yeah, archery. All your arrows work too. And yeah.

[Seth]

My bow back, it's going.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. You know that the bow's going off.

[Seth]

When I let her go. She's going. She's going. Yeah. A lot of stuff. A guy wrote in with a business idea from a podcast and I, I get a lot of these, but this one, I wanted to. His name's Brian. I just wanted to get you guys feeling on it because I'm having a hard time understanding it. I have, I didn't invent this, but if you have a bill cap on, I'm gonna put my bill cap on and demonstrate. I wish I had my binos too.

[Stephen Rinella]

They're just in your truck and we.

[Seth]

Got a set of vinyls.

[Stephen Rinella]

Sam, can you want to grab those.

[Seth]

Yeah. Can you grab those set of vinyls out of the truck? So here I've put my bill cap on and I'm going to demonstrate a strategy of knocks. A knocking bino. Knocking binocular strategy. What I was talking about is that you can use your bill again. I didn't, I didn't invent this. It's always been around. But these are stabilizing binoculars, so it's less relevant. But here I'm holding a pair of binoculars. Let's say these aren't stabilized binoculars. You. For you people watching at home, not listening when you hold them up. Have you. Do you know this trick? Everybody knows this trick. Yeah. You clamp. You clamp your fingers. You. You ratchet your binos. Where's that camera? You ratchet your binos to the bill of your hat. And if you want to get mega stable, you pull slightly. So I'm pinching them.

[Stephen Rinella]

I like to get the hands. I like to. I like to get the hands a little more on the side, like this. That way it's like put. It's like putting blinders up.

[Seth]

That's not the right way to do it.

[Stephen Rinella]

No, that is.

[Seth]

That's.

[Stephen Rinella]

Then you can get all. You basically grab it with the binos with your palms. Yeah. And then you put all four fingers on your bill. Then you go.

[Seth]

So you're like a dude from college in the 90s.

[Stephen Rinella]

I don't understand.

[Seth]

You know when you used to wrap your hat around a beer can?

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you do that, then. Especially when the sun's out. Yeah.

[Seth]

That work.

[Stephen Rinella]

Put your blinders up, because I run.

[Seth]

Backstreet Boys when it's sunny out. Yeah. He did that.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

Do you know what I'm saying? So the sun's over here. I run it like this. Right.

[Stephen Rinella]

But if you applied our method, you.

[Seth]

Wouldn'T have to do that. And then I'm boned on this. So then you see what you're saying.

[Stephen Rinella]

You're stable and you're not getting any leak or light leaking insides.

[Seth]

Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I could see it a little bit either way. The.

[Stephen Rinella]

What?

[Seth]

I haven't been. I didn't invent that. But what I did invent was this. This. I invented the pole. Just say no one. No one had done that. I checked. There's not a soul in the world that has ever done that. Not. Not when you put a slight pole for extra stability. A guy heard me talking about this named Brian.

[Stephen Rinella]

Okay. A slight pull, huh?

[Seth]

Yep. I don't know if that locks in.

[Stephen Rinella]

I don't. I feel like a push would lock in better.

[Seth]

No. Then it's hitting your eyes, and you know what?

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Then you're stable against your face.

[Seth]

I can explain it better later. This guy writes in Brian, if you switch the letters, is in his name around, you get brain.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

He says, I just had an idea. Well, first he says, hey, Steve. He says, I just had an idea. I heard your podcast regarding the trick. Now, listen carefully, because I get confused for this. I heard your podcast regarding the trick to hang on to binoculars using the bill of your bill. Cap. Bill of your cap. And he uppercases bill, comma. I thought, why not come up with a strap system? Now, here's where you got to start paying attention. A strap system that goes around the binoculars, comma. So forget the. I thought, why not come up with a strap system that goes around the binoculars, comma, hold him into the exact place you want, and a strap then runs over the top of your head and attaches underneath your shoulders.

[Stephen Rinella]

Wow.

[Seth]

Binoculars stay glued to your eyes.

[Stephen Rinella]

Make it hard to peel them away.

[Seth]

I'm still in the sea.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

I don't want you boys to get uncomfortable, but I'm removing my belt.

[Stephen Rinella]

You've been bad, Chili. Watch out now.

[Seth]

You thinking you did something bad or I'm gonna do something bad? But neither is true. He's saying.

[Stephen Rinella]

Man, there's so many straps.

[Seth]

Hold these up for a minute.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

He's saying something to this effect.

[Stephen Rinella]

And then under the under.

[Seth]

Pack under my armpits at that point, I think that's it.

[Stephen Rinella]

You're like.

[Seth]

He just. Essentially, this is a business idea.

[Stephen Rinella]

Well, essentially, what he piggybacked off of was Kevlar helmet.

[Seth]

No, he's right. Look.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. It's almost like a set of nods on him.

[Seth]

What he's not thinking of is that you can't go about your day.

[Stephen Rinella]

You got to be able to flip them up.

[Seth]

Yeah. Because you can't. Fine.

[Stephen Rinella]

Like, you'd be tripping over stuff.

[Seth]

Yeah. You can't drive to your spot.

[Stephen Rinella]

You can't be running around all day on 12 power.

[Seth]

So any feedback would be wonderful. Keep. Keep plugging away at it. Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

I think it's got to be, you know, like your fancy coon hunting hat. It's got the. The inner liner.

[Seth]

Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

I think quick connect. It's got to be something on there that you can flip them up and then pop down. I'd pay good money to see Steve roll around the plains in a Kevlar.

[Seth]

With just some nods on it.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Every time.

[Seth]

Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

And then if you fall, you protect it. Yeah.

[Seth]

I was making a. I was making an argument the other day. My boy is. My older boy is tangled up at school in speech and debate class. I remember being. Yeah, speech and debate is what it's called. I went down to the. To the orientation with my wife. And when they asked for questions, I was dying to ask a question, but I didn't. And then I told my wife, I said, I'm going to tell you something and you're not going to like, take it seriously. You're just going to, you're going to like, be mildly offended. You're not going to really listen to what I'm saying. Okay. And I was saying it doesn't. Without knowing the ethics of a child, I don't think it makes sense to train them in speech and debate. And I said to her, I had, I came up with this slogan, today's children are tomorrow's enemies. Whoa, that's great. So picture. Yeah, that's great. This is a mildly indefensible position. But think about it. What I was saying is like, here you got a whole class from your kids. I don't know what their belief systems are, but, but here we are like, like you donate your time or money to train them to be persuasive without knowing what their belief system is. How do you know you're not training someone who would be adversarial to your position?

[Stephen Rinella]

True.

[Seth]

Training them and making them more convincing, thereby creating a future enemy.

[Stephen Rinella]

I think that happens.

[Seth]

I think you would first vet, you would. You'd vet them to find the ones that you kind of agree with and then train them on speech and debate.

[Stephen Rinella]

How would you vet them?

[Seth]

And who's questionnaire? I, I would do the questionnaire, but that would be, that'd be, that would.

[Stephen Rinella]

Be very subjective to, to you and your beliefs.

[Seth]

Yes. And you'd have to try out for speech and debate and I would come in and volunteer to come in and be like, y. No. Yep. No. So speech and debate according.

[Stephen Rinella]

According to Steven, you're right. Your wife probably didn't take that serious.

[Seth]

I could say that. No, I told her it and I've yet, yet to have her come back to me with any kind of a reply.

[Stephen Rinella]

You'd have to have a board of.

[Seth]

People who like us, then I'd have to be able to vet the board. Like, I'd have to pick the board then. You know what I'm saying?

[Stephen Rinella]

Well, I'm just saying if you wanted to keep it fair or, or, or you don't want to keep it fair. You just want people to believe what you believe.

[Seth]

Can I give you a piece of. Can I give you some listener feedback about this?

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

This is all teeing up. Listener feedback. It's a great subject line. It starts out my three favorite four favorite words. Steve was 100% correct. That's how it starts out. Steve is. Steve is 100. About debate class. And here's a real life example why. Dying to know.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

Steve is spot on when he says that teaching debate separate from ethics is dangerous. That's not really what I said, but sure. My daughter dates a state champ debate guy who is a class A A hole when their relationship sours. He is expert at convincing her that the reason things have gone bad is because of her. He never takes responsibility for his actions and makes her feel like shit. His ability to win either side of a debate has given him the notion that he is never wrong because he can always justify his position in his mind and convinces her that she is in the wrong because he is able to twist the situation and deflect blame back on her. One need. This is the letter. I'm still reading the letter. One need to only be convincing in a debate. Not ethical, moral or right. And therein lies the issue. Signed a pissed off dad.

[Stephen Rinella]

Did you write that letter in?

[Seth]

No, that wasn't what I was getting at. I was more getting at, I don't want to train up. But my, like these other, you know, I've worried about like that whole classroom of kids, like some of them are going to have viewpoints different than mine and then they become convincing and what if they come convince me of something that I don't want to be convinced?

[Stephen Rinella]

So you're just, you're.

[Seth]

You're ultimately scared to change. That's right. Seth, can you, can you share your reporting about bear spray?

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, yeah.

[Seth]

This is probably your first piece of original reporting.

[Stephen Rinella]

Probably it ain't. It's not going to be. I mean, it's not crazy, but.

[Seth]

Well, let me tee it up.

[Stephen Rinella]

Teed up.

[Seth]

Okay. The other day on a podcast, we had a podcast with a guest who spent their career, much of their career, working with grizzly bears and, and catching problem bears and, and dealing with catching bears and trying to get people to not have problems with bears, stuff like that. And in there we got into a conversation about bear spray. And this guy's a long time hunter, worked as a hunting guide. And I laid out to him, okay, the, the perennial debate pistol bear spray. What do you like? He said bear spray. And he went on to say, you know, very few people are actually proficient with a pistol, despite how much they might think they're proficient with a pistol. But with bear spray, it's. You're creating a cloud of spray. I see Chili did a little face. I just I mean, I would agree.

[Stephen Rinella]

With the fact that a lot of.

[Seth]

People aren't proficient with a pistol, but.

[Stephen Rinella]

Like, I think a lot of things. Like, one, what if the wind's blowing in your face and, like, you blind the bear, but you also blind yourself? Or what if you don't get the bear?

[Seth]

Because then the bear, that's fine. But, like, I just think that a.

[Stephen Rinella]

Lot more things can go wrong with bear spray. And personally, I just feel more comfortable with a gun because, I mean, I've never had to shoot at a bear, but I've seen videos and I've, like, read reports. Like, a lot of the bears just bugger off at the sound of a gun.

[Seth]

I've had them go toward the sound of a gun. Well, I've shot in front of them and then had them go look at where I shot. Because they saw something move.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, I think it depends on the person. Either way, I've shot my pistol thousands more times than I have my bear spray.

[Seth]

Okay, you ready for your reporting now?

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep. Well, didn't someone. Didn't someone write in about assault? Bear spray for assault?

[Seth]

Greg Fonts, who's been on the podcast.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, yeah, it's Greg Fonts. Yeah.

[Seth]

Well, Greg Fonts, he's a. He's a firefighter.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

In Sacramento. And he said his experiences with bear spray are not from people carrying them around for bears, but it's kind of a thing commonly used for assault and robbery. He says, I bet more people get sprayed by bear spray than bears get sprayed by bear spray. Absolutely true.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

I've. I've had two incidents of getting sprayed by bear spray, not bears. I've yet to see a bear get shot with bear spray. I've seen bears get fired at with guns, but not fired at by bear spray. And I've. I've a couple times had occasion to shoot in front of them to try to deter them.

[Stephen Rinella]

So, yeah, by Greg writing in about that, that brought up this story that I was telling these guys of the. I live in Three Forks, Montana, and there was a bar that back in the summer got robbed during, like, the evening when it was full of people, and the guy came in and just sprayed everyone with bear spray, took the money and ran out.

[Seth]

Genius. Criminal.

[Stephen Rinella]

So while everyone's, like, blinded and coughing and whatnot, he's pulling money out of the, you know, the cash. Still at large. Still at large.

[Seth]

Never caught him.

[Stephen Rinella]

I don't think they did.

[Seth]

You know that how they made that Ocean's Eleven movie. You could make a really short, like, Ocean's one short one of those heist movies where that guy just comes in, cuts loose that bear spray and grabs the stuff and runs out. It'd be a short. Yeah, just get Brad. It'd be like a YouTube short called Oceans One, hopefully.

[Stephen Rinella]

Or you could turn into a full length movie and that happens in the beginning. And then the rest of the movie is.

[Seth]

Oh, just make it part of a movie.

[Stephen Rinella]

Trying to, trying to figure out who did it. Did he recoup the cost of a bear spray? Because those are kind of expensive.

[Seth]

40 bucks a can.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. I don't know how much money was stolen. Was it be still.

[Seth]

Like how did they get the bar cleaned out and back in business?

[Stephen Rinella]

I, yes, they did. But I still hear every once in a while like some will be like I was in the plaza and my skin got irritated when I was playing the, the gambling machines or whatever.

[Seth]

Really?

[Stephen Rinella]

Because they're still like, yeah, I can't.

[Seth]

Believe they never caught him.

[Stephen Rinella]

I, I, I didn't hear that they, that they caught him. Maybe they did, but I don't think so.

[Seth]

When my, when I was a little kid, my dad was, my mom and dad were out to dinner with some of their friends and the, the, the other woman besides my mom. Right. She had a little thing of mace and my dad was curious about or some kind of spray and keychain and he was curious about its range and shot it in the restaurant into a vent.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh.

[Seth]

Not realizing it's like, you know, it's real strong, it's strength. And the whole place got evacuated. Wow.

[Stephen Rinella]

Did they know it was him?

[Seth]

Yeah. It became a often told story in my family.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. It's probably not a good thing.

[Seth]

This guy says this bear spray accidents. Listen to episode 365. And the part of bear spray going off randomly reminded me of being on a caribou hunt in Alaska. My friend Lewis and I come out of the tent and there's caribou on top of the hill outside camp. We grab our guns and packs and head off. That sounds like caribou hunting. Lewis is supposed to shoot first. He drops his bag on a tussock. It lands on his bear spray causing it to go off. It shoots a stream of spray across Lewis's chest, causing him to drop like a rock between gas was air. He was yelling for me to shoot the bull. Which I happily did.

[Stephen Rinella]

Nice.

[Seth]

At least they got the bull another time. I left a can of spray in my 83 GMC pickup after a day hiking in July. Come back out the next morning and the canister had exploded in my truck. That's common.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, I've heard that.

[Seth]

Eventually got him clean by stripping all the interior parts out and pressure washing them. I've heard of cars getting totaled from it.

[Stephen Rinella]

You know, I have. I have bear spray in my bag right now because we're in a. A barrier.

[Seth]

What are you gonna do, get it out of your bag when he comes for you?

[Stephen Rinella]

Well, no, I just. I. Listen to my story.

[Seth]

Okay.

[Stephen Rinella]

It's in my. Just my duffel bag. I was gonna. If. I don't know if I thought I needed. I was gonna put it in my little harnessing. But I have, I think at Walmart, I got, you know, like pub mix stuff.

[Seth]

Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

Comes in like a plastic cylinder.

[Seth]

Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

I had. I have it in that thing kind of wrapped up so it's not just bouncing around in there with the lid on. And that's how I transport it.

[Seth]

I keep mine in a mini ammo can because you can put two or three of them in a mini ammo can.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

And it's got a little foam in there to keep it from rattling around, but that way it can cut loose and nothing's coming out of there.

[Stephen Rinella]

So if you're gonna have it in your car, put it in something like that.

[Seth]

There are a couple instances where pepper sprays have taken down aircraft. Small air draft.

[Stephen Rinella]

I believe that in Alaska.

[Seth]

Yeah. Well, I'm sure. Probably. I'm sure it's happened in Canada as well. But yeah, one will cut. Cut loose in the. In the cockpit. So generally when you fly with bush planes, they take your spray and they tape it. They duct tape it to the struts on the wings. But there's. Ben. Cases like that. And there was an air wreck not long ago where they weren't able to determine the cause. Inside the cockpit, everything was orange, but they could never determine. It was inconclusive. Whether the can erupted upon impact.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh.

[Seth]

Or if the can erupted and caused the plane to crash.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep. We've been flying in Alaska before where you look out the window and that can just take it away and start shaking. And you're like.

[Seth]

That's like that movie, Gods Must be Crazy. Remember that movie? The cold bottle lands. All of a sudden here. Here's a pepper spray comes down. We've been having some discussions. This is more listener feedback. We've been having some discussions about. Well, there's another thing I was going to talk about, but it's so talked about now. Everyone I know sent to me a tragedy where in Virginia, a bear hunter Everybody's seen this. Everybody's seen this. Nevermind. A bear hunter was killed, they shot a bear and a bear fell off a tree and landed on a guy and killed him. But it's so heavily commented on and reported on and misconstrued. We've been discussing lately when states use reciprocal a thing called reciprocity for management purposes around hunting and fishing regulations. An example of what we're talking about would be this. In North Dakota you can spear pike through the ice only if a North Dakotan would be allowed to spear pike through the ice in your state or province. You tracking.

[Stephen Rinella]

Wait, say that one more time. Yep.

[Seth]

Let me give you this one. Let me give you another example.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

This just changed. But let me give you another example. Montana.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh yeah, I know where you're going with this one.

[Seth]

Prohibits non residents from trapping fur bearing animals.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep. Unless.

[Seth]

Not non game.

[Stephen Rinella]

Unless their state allows.

[Seth]

Unless. No, no, they just forbid non residents.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh they do?

[Seth]

Yeah. They're the ones that started it. Montana, they just changed it. But Montana will not sell a fur harvester license to a non resident.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh well before that it wasn't.

[Seth]

Hear me out. Okay, you tell everybody.

[Stephen Rinella]

No, I thought at one point in time it was a non resident could trap in Montana if their state allows non residents to trap there.

[Seth]

No, because Montana is the one that said you can't.

[Stephen Rinella]

Gotcha.

[Seth]

They, they, they're them. Minnesota. Okay. There's certain states that do not let non residents trap fur bearing animals.

[Stephen Rinella]

Gotcha.

[Seth]

Now you could come to Montana, trap fox, you come to Montana, trap coyote because they're non game. But you couldn't trap, you couldn't trap beaver, odd. Or muskrat.

[Stephen Rinella]

Gotcha.

[Seth]

Furbearing animals. So a case of reciprocity would be like Wyoming for instance. Wyoming says okay, you, we will sell a non resident a fur harvester license if that. If our residents can buy in their state.

[Stephen Rinella]

Gotcha.

[Seth]

And so it would be that if you lived in Montana, you could not trap in Wyoming. Why? Because Montana had banned Wyoming people from trapping.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

Minnesota has another situation like that. That's a case of reciprocity. There's reciprocity, like I said, with pike spearing. If you don't allow. If your state doesn't allow pike spearing Wisconsin, you can't come spear northeast in North Dakota.

[Stephen Rinella]

Gotcha.

[Seth]

I was a while ago I was musing about whether you would start to use reciprocity against states that are doing bans on certain hunting activities. So meaning California bans bobcat hunting. Bobcat trapping, mountain lion hunting. Should a Californian be allowed to go, like, should have Californian be allowed to go to another state and participate in those activities when their state has banned the. Right. I was just musing about asking this question just to, like, you know, get intellectual, you know, the intellectual juices flowing.

[Stephen Rinella]

How do you feel that was the case? I hope they banned deer hunting in Washington.

[Seth]

Well, that's where it becomes interesting. Because if you have, like, when. Because you have a lot of states that are becoming increasingly adversarial, you have. You have, like, states that are coming adversarial to hunters and. Hunters. Trappers. Fishermen. Right.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

And then, you know, like, Washington, when they. During the pandemic, they banned fishing by yourself. Like, if you had a pond in your yard, you could go out there and shoot golf balls into that pond during COVID but you couldn't fish. But there was a period of time when you couldn't go there and cast into that pond.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Just, you know, keeping everyone safe.

[Seth]

Yep. So as you have states, Colorado. Well, Colorado just beat one of these things. But Colorado, Washington, California. Yep. Other states in the east, as you have these states that are becoming, like, super restrictive, you create kind of like a hunting and fishing refugees.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

That then carry on all their activities elsewhere. Meaning Washington state. They like, they're very sting. They don't. They. They don't want to manage predators. They're very stingy with big game tags. And so you create a lot of hunting refugees.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

Who move into neighboring states, into Montana. Right. So should you, like, would a state ever say, like, listen, if you're gonna. If, like, let's say Colorado had passed the mountain line, but no, let's stay with California. California bands trapping. They ban hunting cats.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

Hunting lines. Would Montana ever be like, okay, if that's how you guys are about this, then your people cannot come here and do that here.

[Stephen Rinella]

They won't do that because it drives too much revenue.

[Seth]

Well, Yanni says you're punishing the wrong people.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

Yanni says, like, if Colorado had passed their mountain lion ban. So then you want to further punish those people in Colorado and saying they can't go elsewhere to do it.

[Stephen Rinella]

It'll fire. People who agree with the mountain lion ban in Colorado just can't even come to Montana at all. They just have to stay there. But we'll take the hunters.

[Seth]

That'd be fine. That'd be fine with me. I feel like gloating all over again about that. Not passing, but.

[Stephen Rinella]

You can if you want.

[Seth]

You know what? I came up with that I Haven't had a chance to use yet. Is a high no. You know what a rhino is?

[Stephen Rinella]

Yes.

[Seth]

A high? No.

[Stephen Rinella]

What's a high? No.

[Seth]

Hunter name only. That'd be like the hunters that were for the mountain lion band in Colorado. Heinos. Like, I'm a hunter. I hunt pheasants once a decade and I support the ban on mountain lions. That was a thing.

[Stephen Rinella]

That was a high. No.

[Seth]

Yeah, that was a thing.

[Stephen Rinella]

That's crazy.

[Seth]

Hey, the new year is a great time to take stock of your life, right? And, and, and sit down with your spouse or whoever and figure out what you guys ought to be doing differently going forward. And these conversations often lead to the realization or the commitment to get your finances in order, which is a good idea. And you should be doing that all year long. And a way to get that done is by using Rocket Money. Thanks to Rocket Money, your goals can feel achievable. They show me all of my subscriptions right in one place and help me easily cancel ones that I forgot I've been pay. Rocket Money also pulls together all your spending across all of your different accounts so you can clearly track your spending habits and see where you can cut back. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitor your spending, and help lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year. When using all of the app's premium features, cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket money, go to rocketmoney.commeater today, that's rocketmoney.commeater rocketmoney.commeater it's a new year, and each new year is an opportunity to reflect and plan for the future. Get it going the way you want it to go, okay? Like setting career goals, making financial moves, and which should be very high on your list is ensuring that your family is taken care of no matter what might happen to you. So make this the year you check life insurance off your to do list and protect your family's future with Policy Genius. I picked up life insurance when me and my wife started our family a man. I put it this way, I go through life feeling a lot, lot better, knowing that if something happened to me, they'd all be taken care of. It takes a lot of stress off. With Policy Genius, you can find life insurance policies that start at just $292 per year for a million dollars of coverage. Some options are 100% online and let you avoid unnecessary medical exams. And check this out. 40% of people wish they had gotten life insurance at a younger age. Don't be one of those people. Secure your families tomorrow so you can have peace of mind today. Head to policygenius.com or click the in the description to get your free life insurance quotes and see how much you could save. That's policygenius.com hey American history buffs, Hunting history buffs, Listen up. We're back at it with another volume of our Meat Eaters American History series. In this edition, titled the Mountain Men 1806-1840, we tackle the Rocky Mountain beaver trade and dive into the lives and legends of fellows like Jim Bridger, Jed Smith, and John Colter. This small but legendary fraternity of backwoodsmen helped define an era when the west represented not just unmapped territory, but untapped opportunity for those willing to endure some heinous and at times violent conditions. We explain what started the mountain man era and what ended it. We tell you everything you'd ever want to know about what the mountain men ate, how they hunted and trapped, what gear they carried, what clothes they wore, how they interact with Native Americans, how 10% of them died violent deaths, and even detailed descriptions of how they performed amputations on the fly. It's as dark and bloody and good as our previous volume about the white tailed deer skin trade, which is titled the Long Hunters 1761-1775. So again, this new Mountain man edition about the beaver skin trademark is available for pre order now wherever audiobooks are sold. It's called Meat Eaters American History the Mountain Men 1806-1840 by me, Stephen Rinella. Anyways, this guy writes in about reciprocity. You ready for this?

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

The state of Ohio does not require resident landowners to purchase a hunting license or deer tag to hunt their property. Wow, really? A minimum of 5 acres? I had no idea. Is that true? The state of Ohio does not require a resident landowner to purchase a hunting license or deer tag to hunt their own property if they have a minimum of five acres.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, I think that's true in multiple states. I think it was like that in New Jersey.

[Seth]

This privilege extends to the landowner's spouse and children. Resident landowners still have to tag their deer, report them, and are subject to bag limits and all the other regs. I had no idea.

[Stephen Rinella]

I want to say I could be wrong on this, but I want to say New Jersey was like that and you just go pick up your tags.

[Seth]

But if you're hunting your own place.

[Stephen Rinella]

And it's a above a certain acreage, you just go get your tags.

[Seth]

I can't say I have a problem with that. I don't know. I didn't know. That surprises me. That's fine. Whatever. Well, it's like, you know that in Wisconsin if you're on your own land, you're exempt from small game regulations or something like that. I think you can hunt squirrels year round.

[Stephen Rinella]

Really?

[Seth]

Yeah, I think so. Doug's probably having a heart attack on, on his skid steer right now.

[Stephen Rinella]

Take a seat, Doug. Breathe, Doug.

[Seth]

He goes on. Are you ready for this? Okay, so we've established this resin landowner Ohio. Okay. All that. A non resident. You tracking a non resident Ohio landowner and spouse and children may hunt their property without a license or deer tags. If the non resident state of residence.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh my God. I feel like we need to draw this out.

[Seth]

Yeah, okay, I get it. But I'm just. Okay, we've established that more than eight times. We've established if you're in Ohio, you're a resident, you're hunting your own pad, you got more than five acres, you still gotta abide by the hunting laws, but you don't need to tag.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

Now, okay, the state of Ohio does not require resident landowners to purchase a hunting license or deer tag to hunt the their property. Okay. Oh, I already read that. Oh my God. Screwing us up so bad.

[Stephen Rinella]

The non resident part.

[Seth]

Screwing it up bad. Like you think about running for political office, but I'd have a bad time in the debate.

[Stephen Rinella]

You're like, you'd be like, hold on.

[Seth]

I lost myself seconds. I'd be like, that's not gonna work for me. Okay, ready? Okay, we've established that now going on a non resident Ohio landowner and spouse and children may hunt their property.

[Stephen Rinella]

Okay.

[Seth]

Without a license or deer tags. If the non resident state of residence allows non resident landowners to hunt their land without a license or deer tags.

[Stephen Rinella]

Okay, so if I lived in Pennsylvania and they allow that same thing, which they don't.

[Seth]

But they'd have to allow a dude in Ohio and.

[Stephen Rinella]

But I, I own property in Ohio. I would be allowed to do the same thing in Ohio because Ohio has that same rule.

[Seth]

Does Pennsylvania charge a non resident a deer license if the non resident owns land in Pennsylvania? That's what he's saying.

[Stephen Rinella]

Well, I mean, Pennsylvania doesn't do that anyway.

[Seth]

Okay, so then they're out.

[Stephen Rinella]

Okay, yeah. God, that's confusing.

[Seth]

Well, he goes on oh, geez. To the best of my knowledge. Oh, no, back up. As a Michigan resident, he's going, right. Is everybody tracking?

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, yeah. He's Michigan resident.

[Seth]

It's like a tongue. This is an intellectual.

[Stephen Rinella]

He's a Michigan resident who owns property in Ohio.

[Seth]

I don't know that yet. Yes, he is. Okay, everybody tracking?

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep. Yep.

[Seth]

Everybody's tracking.

[Stephen Rinella]

We're.

[Seth]

Yep. Listen. This kind of stuff keeps you from getting dementia later in life or other things, but.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

No, just little brain twisters.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Okay.

[Seth]

As a Michigan resident, where residents. He's go. He goes on. As a Michigan resident where residents, non residents, landowners and non landowners must have a hunting license in deer tag and an Ohio landowner. Let me cut the parenthetical out.

[Stephen Rinella]

You read that too fast.

[Seth]

As a Michigan resident and an Ohio landowner, my family and I do not benefit from this reciprocity because Michigan doesn't allow it. Because Michigan doesn't let non residents who happen to own a place in Michigan hunt in Michigan without their Michigan deer license. This is chapped this guy's ass enough that he's done some research. To the best of my knowledge, the only states residents that benefit from this reciprocity arrangement are Ohio and no other state.

[Stephen Rinella]

H.

[Seth]

They've created a reciprocity rule that doesn't apply to anyone. If you can prove this man wrong, that's my kind of reciprocity law. Makes you seem super lenient. But in fact, when you get into the details, no one applies.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

It's not catered to anyone.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Huh. Maybe it was.

[Seth]

Well, I'd also be curious to know, as this Michigan resident, how hard is it for him as a landowner in Ohio to get a tag in Ohio? Like, if it's still like, over the.

[Stephen Rinella]

Counter, probably every year.

[Seth]

Yeah. He's got to pay a couple hundred bucks. Well, yeah, but, like, why is he complaining? Because you watch your pennies and dollars take care of themselves. Fair. Fine.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

He goes on.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, boy.

[Seth]

Okay. No, it's just he totally changes the subject.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, okay.

[Seth]

But it's not a non sequitur because he put down P.S. which sort of announces it as, you know, you're announcing it's a non sequitur. P.S. not relate. And he also says not related to the above. P.S. not related to the above, but another Ohio reciprocal agreement. This is different. This is interesting management. We'll get. We'll talk about this because I like this, but it's different. Ohio and West Virginia allow residents of either state to hunt, waterfowl and fish on the Ohio river without Having a license from the other state. That's common. Yeah, that's common. Where, for instance, New York and Pennsylvania in the Delaware river, they make a. Instead of creating, let's say you have one situation where Pennsylvania says you're allowed six small mouth a day, and New York says you're allowed four small mouth a day, and you got this river that's you. You know, shoot a bow across. You create all kinds of problems. So what states will often do in those situations is they'll come and make a. The states will agree. They'll make a river bag, limit a river set of regulations, and allow anyone from the bordering states to fish the river.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

An interesting spot where this little bit of reciprocity does not exist is the St. Mary's river, which divides Michigan, for there's probably many other places. The St. Mary's which divides Michigan with Canada, with Ontario. You need to pay attention where you are, because there's a magical line running out in the middle of that stuff. And you got to know what side of that line you're on, even in your boat. How do they enforce?

[Stephen Rinella]

I want to say that's the thing on the Mississippi, too.

[Seth]

You know what? There are some spots in the Mississippi like that, because remember a bass.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

A professional bass guy got disqualified from a tournament because he had strayed across some invisible line and was actually fishing a different state's waters.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

And they had a different bag limit in those states or something like that.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, yeah. I think it was falling, but I.

[Seth]

Like it when they come together and do those little deals. Right.

[Stephen Rinella]

What about, like, people fishing Lake Michigan from the Michigan side, but make a big run. Is there? Is there?

[Seth]

Say it again.

[Stephen Rinella]

Like, if you're fishing Lake Michigan and you launch in Michigan, but make a big run and you're, like, closer to Wisconsin.

[Seth]

I don't know how that. I don't know how Michigan and Wisconsin do it. That's a great question. We never fish that far out. That's a lot. That's a ways.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

I got buddies that do. I don't know what they. I don't know if you got. I'm guessing there on that lake of that size, I'm guessing you need to get a license when you cross the state line and the state line runs out in the water. Here's a guy on the same subject. Ready for this?

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

He says he was listening to the podcast this morning in his tree stand and killed a doe. And he says, take that for what it's worth. Then he goes on to say towards the end, they, meaning we mentioned a write in where a guy complained about being a landowner and having to pay non resident fees. I remember this guy, he's like, how in the hell can I have. He, he, he's griping because he's like, I live in whatever. I don't know whether Michigan and I own a place in Ohio. I shouldn't have to pay non resident fees in Ohio. But think about the can of worms you're opening up there, right? Like, okay, do you want to file taxes in both states? Do you want to, you know, I mean, there's like, there's a thousand things, right. That you would probably not like if that was true.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

Well, he, you know that I, I'm, I'm not giving him full credit. He does pay taxes. He pays land taxes there. But the way the whole country set up, you got to be a resident of a state. It's just how, it's just, it's hard to get around that. He goes on to say this. Towards the end, they mentioned the writing where a guy complained about being a landowner and having to pay non resident fees. I do the same thing. However, I live in Tennessee and hunt in Alabama. I wish the roles were reversed. But if you're born in Tennessee, you can apply every year for non resident native to Tennessee licenses. Damn. Idaho has that thing, the lifetime.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

Idaho had it for it's no longer the way. But you could get grandfathered in on it at once upon a time. And a lot of dudes took advantage of this. They knew they weren't going to stay in Idaho. I could name names and one of them likes to complain about anyone getting any kind of benefit. Like anytime someone draws a tag, he's like down on them. But this individual who you guys know and love ran out and bought his lifetime Idaho license before moving away from Idaho so that he could continue to dodge fees and hunt as a resident in Ohio.

[Stephen Rinella]

I thought, you can still do that.

[Seth]

He cries foul at any advantage that anybody gets when it comes to getting a tag he wishes he got.

[Stephen Rinella]

I thought, you can still do that night.

[Seth]

Oh, I think they got rid. I don't think it works that way anymore. But if you said, oh, I drew a bighorn tag in Idaho, he's gonna give you a big old eye roll. Must be nice.

[Stephen Rinella]

Is this, is this the same fella that's also not very lucky when it comes to drawing?

[Seth]

Yes. Okay. It's taken, it's gradually taking a toll on him. Gotcha. Yeah, it's taking a psychological toll on him. But they did that. They did that. Montana has a coming home to hunt. I can't remember who I was talking to about that. Yeah, it's like, if you like, it's meant to be that, like, let's say you have a family and you're, you have kids and your, your kids go away. It gives advantage to your kids to get tags so you can come home to hunt. They're coming home to hunt. Hunt.

[Stephen Rinella]

Is that still like an application process.

[Seth]

Or is it like kind of like an otc? I think it's in a different, I, I, I don't know.

[Stephen Rinella]

I think that's just different price.

[Seth]

Different, different price.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, I, I think so.

[Seth]

This gentleman says attached to this emails application, it would be cool to see more states do this. Also, y'all joked about voting in two different states. Oddly enough, my former police chief wasn't indicted for doing that and several other charges earlier this year. Was or wasn't?

[Stephen Rinella]

Was not.

[Seth]

I think he must have meant was probably when that came, that came up on. When we did. I think we did the episode. Yeah. Remember we interviewed, were you there? We interviewed the women that got mauled by the otter.

[Stephen Rinella]

No.

[Seth]

I was telling a story on that one where I was in a restaurant overhearing people. Next to me, there's a huge table full of people and they were actually from an animal rights organization. They're having a dinner. Bozeman based animal rights organization. And I'm overhearing them and there's a guy plotting. But I got caught by my wife because I wasn't paying attention what she was telling me because I was so engrossed by what they were talking about and he was plotting. He lived in Illinois, but he wanted to be able to vote in a swing state, so was switching all of his stuff around to be able to go vote in Michigan.

[Stephen Rinella]

Wow.

[Seth]

Because he wanted to vote in a swing state because he wanted to vote against Trump. So then I said when Trump says the election was rigged, I was like, well, there's one.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. It ain't zero.

[Seth]

It ain't zero, man. This guy, he, even though we said we're no longer going to talk about pre chewed food, he's like asking if there could be one last little thing. No.

[Stephen Rinella]

Well, that's an in depth deal, man.

[Seth]

He's got, it's a lot in here.

[Stephen Rinella]

He's got bullet points.

[Seth]

Okay. There's a guy this tough one. There's a guy that wrote in and he had some things to say about making babies eat solid food and the Advantages of breastfeeding. Then another guy wrote in and said, what does he know? He's a, he's a dds. Okay. What's dds, Dennis? And he laid out all these credentials and talked about how this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Now he's got a rebuttal.

[Stephen Rinella]

When people say, what is what? What do they know? He's just a dentist. How do you know that guy is, isn't a hobbyist? Just like, researches the, out of. Oh, yeah, some other topic. When he goes home.

[Seth]

Sorry.

[Stephen Rinella]

Credibility. Yeah. When people's like, he, what did he know? He's a dentist. What if people don't know that? Like, maybe his hobby is going home and researching that kind of.

[Seth]

Well, here's what. He came out swinging.

[Stephen Rinella]

I don't, I don't have a degree in hunting whitetail bucks, but, you know, sure.

[Seth]

But it's like, it's, it's sort of like a little bit generally be like, generally accepted. Like if we're having an argument about George Washington.

[Stephen Rinella]

Okay.

[Seth]

And you're like, well, he chopped down that cherry tree, you know, and lied about it. And then a guy's like, well, I have a PhD in American history, and I did my dissertation on the, my, you know, my thesis was on the veracity of the claim that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree and lied about it. Now, if I'm hearing the, this conversation, I'm probably going to be looking to the PhD cherry chopper guy.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

To maybe have a little more intel about that occurrence.

[Stephen Rinella]

I understand that, but I, I, I think sometimes people get a little carried away with sometimes.

[Seth]

Yes. But in some areas, this guy was saying, hey, man, it's better to breastfeed babies and it's better to pre chew food and give them meat and give them tough stuff to chew on chewy steaks and whatnot.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

And that we're creating muscular problems by giving babies all this soft food and those little squeeze bottles.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

This other guy writes in being like, you know, here's the deal. I'm the real expert, and that's all BS is what he says. Okay.

[Stephen Rinella]

The dentist said that.

[Seth]

Yeah. This other dentist.

[Stephen Rinella]

Gotcha.

[Seth]

Now this first dentist comes back swinging because this other guy said his kid wants to fight that guy's kid.

[Stephen Rinella]

All right, let's hear it. Dang. I'll tell you what, Dennis. Dad thinks, Right.

[Seth]

So it's so complicated. Do we really want to do I really want to get into this.

[Stephen Rinella]

I probably agree with the dentist who's all about eating deer Meat and drinking milk.

[Seth]

He starts out with a little dig because this guy was saying in the end of it, he made a joke like, hey, my kid will fight your kid anytime. Okay, now that. So the first dentist now writes in and he dresses his letter to the guy. So it's Max on one side and Matthew on the other side. Max wrote in saying, you should give your babies tough deer meat to help their jaws develop. And when their jaws develop and their musculature develops, it helps them in all kinds of ways throughout life.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

This other guy's saying that's horseshit. That guy's name is Matthew. The first guy's Max.

[Stephen Rinella]

So now Max Max.

[Seth]

Now Matthew writes, dear honorable, honorable and distinguished colleague, Matthew, it's no shock that your baby wants to fight mine. Kids are wild. But here's the kicker. There's a connection between sleep disordered breathing and ADHD in children. ADHD's hallmarks, hyperactivity and emotional chaos can make kiddos more prone to throw hands in the playpen. A little slight sticks the knife right in the ribs before he even gets started. He goes on. Now you might be asking, what does sleep breathing have to do with my kids weak jaw? Excellent question. Research shows a high prevalence of mallow occlusion underdeveloped jaws in children with obstructive sleep apnea compared to the control group. Simply put, your kid's jaw might be slacking in their sleep and and mood might be paying the price. And he goes next, I imagine you saying, you still haven't proven that my baby's diet of squeeze bag peas and rubber nipples is ruining their jaw. And you're right. Every kid responds differently. But here's what research tells us. Breastfeeding is a positive factor that seems to reduce the incidence of posterior cross bite, skeletal class 2 and distal occlusion in primary mixed dentition.

[Stephen Rinella]

I knew that. I didn't know that.

[Seth]

Animals raised on soft foods show more rotated and displaced teeth, crowded premolars and Absolutely. And relatively narrower dental arches. Get this. Middle aged adults in rural Kentucky had better occlusion than younger folks. The younger generation grew up eating commercially processed foods while their elders chomped on coarse homemade fare. Then he goes on with a bunch of disclaimers. Breastfeeding is not as easy. Feeding kids coarser foods feels like a battle. We're all doing the best we can. But he ends with this. Here's my advice. Chew up some venison, spit it into your baby's bowl and let the kid take a nap.

[Stephen Rinella]

That sounds like great Advice. Yeah.

[Seth]

And then he has all the citations, Dirt, if you want me to forward them to you.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, that'd be nice. Is this. Is this a side of Stirring the Pot? Is this an intro into that. That series?

[Seth]

Yeah, Stirring the Pot. That's my next show. TV show, Stirring the Pot.

[Stephen Rinella]

You know what this thing I said.

[Seth]

Yeah, I'll be like, yeah, you know, I was. I'll call Dirt's girlfriend. You know, they'll be, hey, I just checking in.

[Stephen Rinella]

This is stirring the pot.

[Seth]

It's kind of weird thing, Dirt. I just can't stop thinking about the thing Dirt said the other night. Anyways, I'll let you go. Have a nice day.

[Stephen Rinella]

Want to say hi, Tell their hi, hope all's well.

[Seth]

Have a great night. Has. Has Dirk been feeling okay? He just said something kind of strange about you the other night. Everything good?

[Stephen Rinella]

No, no, I wouldn't worry about it. No.

[Seth]

If everything's fine, I don't know, you know, I don't want to betray his trust.

[Stephen Rinella]

Gotta go. Another call. Come in.

[Seth]

Do me a favor. Don't tell him I called.

[Stephen Rinella]

This is Stephen Rinella signing off for Stirring the Pot.

[Seth]

This show is sponsored in part by BetterHelp. It's time to ask yourself, what do you want 2025 to look like? Every New Year's brings you 365 blank pages waiting to be filled in 2025. Maybe you're ready for some changes. Or maybe there's a part of your personal story you've been wanting to revise. Life is not about resolutions that fade by February. It's about taking control and being the author of your own life. Think of therapy as your editorial partner, helping you write new chapters and create the meaningful story you deserve to live. Therapy can help you learn positive coping skills and how to set boundaries. It can empower you to be the best version of yourself. Remember, it's not just for those people who've experienced major trauma. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient and serving over 5 million people worldwide. Access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. Write your story with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.commeater to get 10% off your first month. That's better. Help H E lp.commeater this show is.

[Stephen Rinella]

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[Seth]

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[Stephen Rinella]

Endorsement, not representative of all clients and not a guarantee. View Important [e-mail] Meater offer is subject to terms and conditions.

[Seth]

You know, I don't know. I mean I want to talk about the muzzleloader, but muzzleloader hunt. But I don't, I don't have just talk about muzzle or hunt. Seth, you're an expert. How many do you kill? The muzzleloader, Seth?

[Stephen Rinella]

Well, at one point in time, I killed more whitetails with a muzzleloader than a rifle.

[Seth]

All the flintlock.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. But I surpassed that now. I don't know. 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. I don't know.

[Seth]

A handful.

[Stephen Rinella]

Handful? Yeah.

[Seth]

All bucks.

[Stephen Rinella]

Nope, not all bucks.

[Seth]

Some bucks.

[Stephen Rinella]

Some bucks mostly does.

[Seth]

Yeah. How many times we dropped the hammer on a buck and the gun didn't go off or you messed up something?

[Stephen Rinella]

Several. Yeah. No, go ahead. Well, how often was it a drive versus a like still hunter? Most drives. Yeah. Most drives I want to maybe all drives. Yeah. I think all the deer I've ever killed with a flintlock has been from a deer drive. And a lot of times it's me doing the driving with the rifle rather than watching.

[Seth]

And you double bump.

[Stephen Rinella]

You just. Well, a lot of times you.

[Seth]

Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. So you jump them up and they go down, get shot at and come back.

[Seth]

So they're on the move by that point.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Well, sometimes. Yeah.

[Seth]

You know, I don't think I've even now I have one time I haven't tracked much with a round ball.

[Stephen Rinella]

What do you mean? Like blood track?

[Seth]

I haven't blood track. Stuff that has hit by a round ball.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh.

[Seth]

When we say a round ball like we're talking about, there's. There's muzzleloaders and there's flintlocks. And flintlocks, it's a whole different ball game, you know, because muzzlers now, they're pretty sophisticated. You got inline muzzle loaders with special primers and everything's kind of sealed and doesn't get wet. But a flintlock's hard to hunt with, hard to learn, you know.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

And one thing about when you're loading the flintlock, you're taking like a lead sphere, you know, like a musket ball and putting it down there. It's not conical shaped. Nope, just a ball of lead. So when you're hitting a deer at that thing, when you recover that ball, what's it end up looking like?

[Stephen Rinella]

Trying to think if I ever recovered one. I don't remember ever recovering one.

[Seth]

Does it mushroom out or does it just punch a hole?

[Stephen Rinella]

I remember one time I shot a deer like right behind the shoulder, you know, double lunged and it was like. It was the biggest blood trail I've ever seen with that round. With the round ball. Yeah.

[Seth]

Yeah, I'd love to see.

[Stephen Rinella]

I've never seen one like shot in the ballistic gel or anything. So I honestly don't know what it does in there. But yeah, I don't think I've ever.

[Seth]

Recovered one this punch out and go. Go about their business. Yeah, it'd be interesting to check out.

[Stephen Rinella]

See what it does in ballistic gel.

[Seth]

We should do that. We should shoot a bunch of flintlocks and shoot flintlocks in the. I mean the ballistic gel doesn't know that it was a flintlock, but you know what I'm saying.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

Shoot a bunch of black powder flintlocks in the ballistic gel.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

And see what actually it does.

[Stephen Rinella]

I was surprised how soft. What's the non round ball one we were using?

[Seth]

This is a conical or a prelude maxi ball.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, the conical. How soft it was when you guys were ramroding it. It would.

[Seth]

That's lead for you, man.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

[Seth]

It gets misshapen. Yeah. Yeah. There's not a hell of a lot to say. It's kind of got my ass handed to me on the most loader. Hunting a lot of close calls.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, it's tough.

[Seth]

If I hadn't like I announced a family moratorium on killing mule deer does I had a lot of opportunities to shoot a million.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh yeah, you could have killed a lot of those.

[Seth]

But other than that, man, just tough. Hunting a spot. I'm not hunting a spot. I Haven't hunted deer on hard before. I kind of would go about it different now. Now that I kind of understand how they do what they do and what their tolerances are.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. The thing about. About muzzle. Like flintlock muzzle hunting is there's a set of challenges to get close to a deer with. Get to get within range. And then once you get in range and it comes time to shoot, there's like a. Another. You open up the door and there's another set of challenges there.

[Seth]

Yeah. We the. The hammer cocking on those things. We. The other day crept up on one. Crept up on a mule deer and couldn't really determine, but it seems like the hammer cocking.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

Spooked it. It's loud. What I started doing now is I cock it ahead of time. But pulling the set triggers loud.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, yeah. The. The pulling the hammerbacks loud. The set triggers loud. And then just like these evenings, the. The few evenings we've been sitting out here, it's just so quiet. Like the wind dies down.

[Seth]

Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

And you could hear a pin drop. Would muzzle loaders hunt with the set trigger or if everything's just like down to the hair trigger?

[Seth]

I don't know. I've never. In all the reading I've done about hunting with flintlocks, I. I have no idea what you must have because even when you're like bushwhacking another person, there's no way you were cocking that.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

Thing back.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Yeah. I wonder what they did back in the day. I kept thinking of that last Mohican scene, this whole trip.

[Seth]

Oh, yeah, he's running.

[Stephen Rinella]

He cuts off the hellcar.

[Seth]

There's a thing that. That about those flintlocks like to give you a sense of how stealthy people were. There's a thing. We talked about this in the. We talked about this in our Long hunters audiobook that they would. You would more be looking when you're trying to find someone or check for people going through the woods. You'd be more looking for the barrel.

[Stephen Rinella]

What do you mean?

[Seth]

Looking for that big, long, straight barrel.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, that would be.

[Seth]

You're more likely to see the barrel than the dude holding it.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

And you look for that straight.

[Stephen Rinella]

Straight lines.

[Seth]

You'd look for the straight line. Try to. In order to try to find somebody.

[Stephen Rinella]

Dang. Is. Is your.

[Seth]

So those. There's no way someone's taking stealth that seriously. And then it's going click, click. He's probably laying there at that set trigger engaged.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Seth]

Just breathe on that, you know, and just protecting It.

[Stephen Rinella]

So it doesn't.

[Seth]

Nothing breathes on it. I've two times muffed up messing with the set trigger.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

Once hunting with you and once here muffed up, like hitting the set trigger and then getting your finger around. Because once that. Once you do the set trigger, that thing is on. I don't know what it is. It's ounces.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. It's hair trigger.

[Seth]

So getting your finger. You definitely can't be doing with a glove. Getting the set trigger and then bringing your finger up and it's a weird little space. And just. You just. And also two times into the air.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

Before I even got the thing down. Because you're just trying to find the trigger, you know, and it's got that little. That little teeny. Because there's a trigger guard, and it's got two triggers in it. So picture your trigger guard has two triggers. One big, one little. And you do the one. There's not a lot of room in there for. There's not a lot of room in front of the regular trigger.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

So even just trying to get your finger up in the right neighborhood. Shoots the damn gun off for me. Because I don't do it enough.

[Stephen Rinella]

Well, we need to get you. Is like a. The. I forget what the Thompson center used to make one called a Pennsylvania Hunter. And it was just one trigger.

[Seth]

Well, here's what I'm getting. I'm broadcasting this out into the world because. And I'm willing to pay for it. Let me know if you're my man, if you're a gun maker. I'm getting a. Here's what I want because. Because the rules where I'm at. I need an exposed hammer percussion cap. Not inline exposed hammer percussion cap, single trigger. Muzzleloader.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep. There's some good muzzle.

[Seth]

I want to shoot. I want to shoot pirate X or. Or triple seven. And I would. I'd like to shoot conicals out of it. This is one less thing. Because, like, normally when you load. Like in the old oldie days, when you load a flintlock, you pour your powder charge down the barrel, and then you got to take a piece of what's called a patch. So the. The ball doesn't grab the. The ball doesn't grab the Lands in the barrel that well. So what you do is you wrap the ball in a greased patch. And that greased patch is kind of like your wadding or like it. Yeah. Yeah. And that is what helps throw a spiral on it when it comes out that patch. So if you shoot these, there's they make these bullets that you don't need to patch.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

I want a gun and I don't want any someone saying like, oh, it's you know, sub moa, whatever. Like you know, peep sight, single trigger shoots conicals. The barrels spiraled for con, twisted for conicals. Percussion cap.

[Stephen Rinella]

There you go.

[Seth]

That's what I want.

[Stephen Rinella]

How far are they shooting? I remember you mentioned that. How far are they shooting? Modern muzzleloaders that would be under regulation in Montana. Like the bee's knees.

[Seth]

Well, the way they have the rag spelled here.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

You know, 100 yards. Because you can use the optic.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, yeah. You can't use like the fancy inlines here. So that's the limiter state.

[Seth]

Also, an optic is real helpful. Yeah, an optic helps you out a lot. When we did, when we did long in our Long Hunters audiobook about the Daniel Boone and the Hide Hunters, like, I'd always had this question about how good were guys? Like how good really were guys with, with flintlocks? You know, because in the mythology there's like, you know, old tick licker, like it could shoot a tick off a deer, shooting balls and hitting a hatchet blade and splitting the ball and killing two guys. You know, like, whatever.

[Stephen Rinella]

Hell yeah.

[Seth]

All these accounts lasting Mohicans, these like 300 yard running shots through the woods, you know, hitting guys like.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

How good they were. So when we were working on that, me and Randall got into the question of like trying to find accounts of like, what really could be done with a flintlock.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

You know, and similarly, now that we're coming out with our Mountain man one, we're kind of like, how really were they catching beaver? Like, like what were the sets? Like, how did they catch beaver, Mountain Man?

[Stephen Rinella]

Beyond the lore, kind of.

[Seth]

Yeah, like beyond the, like, oh, they did this, that and the other thing. And you're reading like, I don't think that's what they did. You know, it doesn't make sense. And I don't think they were splitting shots against hatchets and killing two guys like waiting for like the Indian to hold his hatchet up and then he hit his blade and killed.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

So there's these shooting contests that we, we talk about in that long hunter piece. You can just go buy it in the, you know, it's a, it's a audio book. It's a, it's. You can purchase it. There's these guys called. There's these real bad, bad dudes. Brady's Rangers. And like these are bad dudes.

[Stephen Rinella]

Like bad, like badass or.

[Seth]

Yeah, bad.

[Stephen Rinella]

Like, they're both doing bad outlaw.

[Seth]

There were some bad dude. They were, like. He had some. So they were, like, along the Ohio river in the mid-1700s, when tribes would cry, like the Shawnee, and people would come from the north across the river and raid settlements in West Virginia.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

Raid settlements in Kentucky. These. He had this collection of. He had this collection of woodsmen and. And hunters that he formed into this, like, kind of almost like this little bit of a. It was almost like a paramilitary special forces unit.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

And they would get on their trail and track them, and they'd track them back across the Ohio. Or they'd ambush them. Like, they'd find canoes parked, hidden. They, like, the. The. The. The Shawnee would sink canoes now and then. Like, they'd cross the Ohio and sink their canoes and then go raid. So these rangers would wait at river crossings and stuff, and they raised some.

[Stephen Rinella]

Hell, yeah.

[Seth]

But they oftentimes, like. They oftentimes, like, got their man, but then they got some other guys, too.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

They were. They had a reputation for being somewhat indiscriminate in their pursuits. And if they were tracking someone and ran to somebody else, anyways, there's some bad dudes. And they were considered, like, crack shooters. And there's some accounts of them competing against regular soldiers in shooting contests. And they would clean their clock, but they would make a mark on a tree. They would make a mark on a tree the size of a dollar bill, which was. We had the. We have the dimensions on it. It's not quite like our dollar bill today, but you're basically making a hatchet slash in a tree like a bill.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

And then at 60 paces. And they could put most, but not all of those balls into that mark. Regular soldiers could not. So that gives you an idea of, like, what really was. What they were really doing.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. And that's the same. They're the soldiers, and the. The bad boys are using the same.

[Seth]

No, those guys. The soldiers have way better. Just wait. Because they're hunting with the hunting rifles.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

There was. At that time, people weren't the backwoodsman. It's kind of funny. The backwoodsmen were getting into rifled barrels.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

And they were getting into lighter calibers, smaller balls.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

And rifling. And soldiers were oftentimes given these smooth bores. And, like, the rifling kind of came from a different direction of how guys caught on it. So these guys were shooting, like, pretty sophisticated, but oftentimes home, like, handmade guns.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Customized custom them out.

[Seth]

Wow. Where you're actually taking a bar and rolling that bar to make the barrel.

[Stephen Rinella]

Dang.

[Seth]

Like hammering it out. Rolling it, smoothing it out. Cutting the lands and grooves. Cutting the grooves into it. Whole thing. All made by hand.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Understanding their tool but like how good could you be?

[Seth]

Cuz like they were how. Think of how inconsistent gunpowder is.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

You're pouring shot by hand. Right. It's you know, it's just a lot of inconsistencies. But there's the mythology is how good these guys with these flintlocks. But. And it's still impressive. But they weren't like you know, in our research. It's like for someone to hit. To hit a deer at 200 yards was really something.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh yeah.

[Seth]

That was really something.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

With a flintlock. But shooting at. Shooting at 60 paces was like pretty what you were after. Which is very similar. It's like not too terribly far off from what you're looking for now.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

And that's putting them into a. You know and that's putting them into a dollar size. Something about the size of a. Of a bill. They would shoot further distances at. At the head of. At shooting at the head. The top of a keg. Which is so it's about an 8 inch circle. They would set up and you would. They would set up and go a little farther and try to put it into an 8 inch circle. So they weren't miracle workers with those things.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Just knew the tool very. Knew the rifle very well.

[Seth]

I could definitely see like I was telling myself I'm going to do this. But now. But recognizing I'm probably lying to myself. I was like man, I should just do it. Where for like a bunch of years going forward, I only hunt with that freaking flintlock. That's all I touch.

[Stephen Rinella]

That'd be tough. There's guys that do it.

[Seth]

Just be like, yeah. Jim Bechtel.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

Just be like I'm gonna hump if I like I'm only like art. Like same way like certain dudes like Cam Haynes, he just hunts with a bow. He don't hunt with a gun. Doesn't do it. And be like I only hunt with a flintlock until I get that thing mastered.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. You'd always have to be in that 120, 100 yard zone though.

[Seth]

Sure. I don't give a. Yeah. Just get where I'm like Joe Flintlock.

[Stephen Rinella]

Man or Steve Flintlock.

[Seth]

I'm not gonna actually do that. But if I was cooler than I.

[Stephen Rinella]

Am, that's what I would do he had more time.

[Seth]

That's what I would do.

[Stephen Rinella]

See this book Old Grizzly.

[Seth]

This book is phenomenal. I'm only pointing this book out because this guy just put it together. It was like. It's like a journal. Did he put together. It's self published.

[Stephen Rinella]

I like journals.

[Seth]

Yep. Old Grizzly. To a better understanding of life on the frontier.

[Stephen Rinella]

Is that him?

[Seth]

That's Old Grizzly. So this guy's later and he's a gr. He was hunting grizzlies in the Selkirks.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, nice.

[Seth]

And it's phenomenal, man. You know we do. Steve reads books so you ain't got to. We even have a little. I don't have it with me. But there's a thing that goes. It's time. Oh, you have it. Can you play it into my end of Seth's headphones? It's time for Steve Lee's books. So you ain't got to see what I'm saying.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, moody. Oh, grits.

[Seth]

So it's a series we do where I read a book and I just find the good parts. Tell you about them.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

And then you ain't got to read it.

[Stephen Rinella]

You ain't got to because I already.

[Seth]

Read it and I told you all the good parts.

[Stephen Rinella]

Got more time to shoot your flintlock?

[Seth]

Yep. You ready for a couple of these?

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

In the winter, we often hunted muskrats with a long spear we had made from a quarter inch round iron rod. It had a sharp barb on the spear end and a round wood handle fastened on the other end. When the ice would bear our weight, we would go out to their houses and shove the spear through the center of each house. The houses were made of grass and mud from the edge of the lake and were easily penetrated. We seldom missed getting at least one from each place we tried. The spear was sharp and it made a clean cut in the pelt which did not depreciate its value.

[Stephen Rinella]

Dang, that's cool. What year was this?

[Seth]

That'll get you arrested.

[Stephen Rinella]

Is there a year? Yeah. Don't do that now.

[Seth]

So I'm trying. So he. He was running around and Old Grizzly here one second. Old grizzly killed 56 grizzly bears in Western Canada on the Selkirks between 1895 and 1924. Then he went back in 1935 and killed another one. So most of this action is occurring in the mid. Like. Like. Well, most of the action is occurring in the early 1900s.

[Stephen Rinella]

Okay, you can't do that now. You can't go.

[Seth]

Can't gig muskrats anymore through the roof of their house. Ready for this?

[Stephen Rinella]

Yes.

[Seth]

Directly he's talking about spear and pike. Spear and fish. If. No. Okay, Directly he's talking about. They go out. They'd go out to spear northerns. Okay, for. For commercial. For commercial sale. But here's an interesting bit. The highest price we got for our fish was around 4 cents a pound, and that was for black bass, large mouths. So in those days, they were spearing large mouths through the ice and selling them for four bucks for selling them for four cents a pound on the commercial market. So you would go into a fish market in those years, and you could buy largemouth bass. You could buy speared largemouth bass and bring it home to eat at the table. In the fall of the year, we would make a few dollars by what we called pulling trees. Settlers living on the prairie would come to town and hire boys to pull up small cottonwood seedlings which grew on the sand bars along the river. The settlers planted the seedlings around their homes to start a wind break. Some settlers had extra land given to them by the government, provided they planted it with trees. And we also supplied seedling trees for such planting. The seedlings were usually about 10 inches long and grew in clean sand from seeds washed there from the previous season. It was easy for even a small boy to pull up a dozen or more at a time. We tied them in bunches of a thousand, for which we received 20 cents. We considered this an easy way to make money.

[Stephen Rinella]

I wonder what. What's inflate? Like what. What would the math be on that? Like, what's 20 cents nowadays? And from 1920, like 100 bucks.

[Seth]

You want to know what else he would do for money?

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Seth]

Sometimes a settler wanted maple seeds to plant. We supplied them. No, he did all his hunting in. In western Canada, but grew up in the midwest.

[Stephen Rinella]

Okay, okay.

[Seth]

Sometimes the settler wanted m maple seeds to plant. We supplied them, but it was hard work to get them. We first had to chop down a tree and then strip the seeds from the limbs. And they usually were so firmly attached that it was a case of pulling off one seed at a time. The settlers paid us $1 for a gunny sack full of these maple seeds. We noticed that some of the sacks were larger than others, but soon got over that difficulty by filling up the bottom of the big sacks with leaves. That's called cheating dirt or just opportunistic.

[Stephen Rinella]

You're getting seven. $7.50. Oh, is that what you got under 10 bucks for a thousand cottonwoods.

[Seth]

My kid went to a turkey shoot at the bow range. And I was trying to explain to him that when I was a kid, a turkey shoot, like now you'll shoot targets to win a frozen turkey.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, I used to do that.

[Seth]

Well, when I was a boy. You could go down to our gun range. And there was an actual turkey shoot. Oh, yeah, behind a sand. They'd put a turkey behind a sandbar.

[Stephen Rinella]

And what, you just shoot at the turkey?

[Seth]

Yeah, they have. 22. And hit it. Hit its head.

[Stephen Rinella]

Whoever got it got when it's dodging.

[Seth]

Around back there with just his head sticking up up out of a sandbar. I was so little, I didn't do it. But it was the thing.

[Stephen Rinella]

Huh?

[Seth]

He said, he's talking about this. These guys going to a turkey shoot. It was always an interesting sight to watch these old timers load their rifles at the turkey shoot, which was an annual affair at home. They were all good shots too. And never, never failed to get a turkey. The men would line up along the riverbank and shoot at a turkey place with its feet tied together on the shore some distance away. The shots were 10 cents and the bird was yours if you hit it anywhere.

[Stephen Rinella]

Sounds like a good deal.

[Seth]

Trying to think if I'm gonna tell you about any more of these. You know what he gets into. He winds up having exposure. This is the last thing I tell you. I'm gonna end the show. He winds up having exposure to, you know, the guy that killed Jesse James.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, kind of backstabby.

[Seth]

Robert Ford. Yeah, he has some details about when the killing of Robert Ford. Mr. Ford was standing at the bar talking to a man about contributing some money to a fund he was raising to bury one of the dance hall girls who had just died. As Ford turned from the bar, he called a greeting to O'Kelly. That's who killed Robert Ford. He called a greeting to O'Kelly, who was only about five feet away. Without saying a word, O'Kelly pulled up the gun and fired a blast of buckshot from both barrels, which blew away half of Bob Ford's head.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, jeez. What's called a greeting mean just sliding.

[Seth]

Listen, I'm Only on page 27. I've read the whole thing.

[Stephen Rinella]

It's heavy hitting the whole way.

[Seth]

Yeah, look at these. Look at all these highlights I got marked.

[Stephen Rinella]

Wow. I don't got to read anymore though.

[Seth]

No, you don't need to read it, cuz. Now you know the main good parts.

[Stephen Rinella]

What's called a greeting mean.

[Seth]

Well, he want to make so he wanted to make. So Jesse James gets killed by Robert Ford. He's kind of a trader.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

And then this guy around town, this kind of local bad guy around town, wants to make a name for himself. He wants to kill Robert Ford to make a name for himself. He doesn't get any trouble for it.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

Robert Ford has a bar. And I've heard other accounts that he took a bunch of. He took a bunch of pipe. Iron pipe and cut it into little rings and then chiseled those rings into little slivers and actually funneled that down the barrel of a double barrel and shot Robert Ford with that bunch of shrapnel.

[Stephen Rinella]

Wow.

[Seth]

Some accounts have him cutting Robert Ford in half down at the waist. And some accounts. His account has him cutting Robert Ford in half along the head. He wound up dying a violent death.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

Oh, the other guy, he died a violent death.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yikes.

[Seth]

That's all for today.

[Stephen Rinella]

Keep your powder dry. Do you still think this was the worst trip you've ever been on?

[Seth]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. This is a low point in my life, really.

[Stephen Rinella]

That's why I think of other bad ones we've had.

[Seth]

50 years is the lowest point of my life. Nothing to do with that.

[Stephen Rinella]

It's only up from here. March. Yeah.

[Seth]

Nothing to do with that. Mag zone. The lowest point of my life. There's. It's just like. Yeah. It's like I don't know what to do. I don't know how I can go home and be a father to my children anymore.

[Stephen Rinella]

You know, I. I feel like they'll.

[Seth]

Be like, you know.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

They'll be like, I was raised by. They'll. They'll. They'll grow up later in life. They'll. They'll go to a therapist and they'll say, I was raised by a broken man. He was actually fine. They'll be like, he was fine until, like, December 24th. After that, he was a broken man.

[Stephen Rinella]

Shell of a man. He'll be like, what, broke your old man? He'd be like, the flintlock muzzleloader.

[Seth]

Yeah, he got. He went down. He got. Knowing my mom didn't want him to do it, but he got that God damn flintlock.

[Stephen Rinella]

First time, damn near, bro. Come second time, definitely broke him.

[Seth]

And he was never the same. He just took to the bottle, you know, Coca Cola. Took to the bottle. Got diabetes.

[Stephen Rinella]

Got diabetes.

[Seth]

And with that, see y'all next flip season when I'm four. Like, joe, dude, you know, I'm not hunting. Next year's flintlock season because I have already killed a buck during regular season with my flintlock. Oh cause that's all you know flintlocks either. But with that said, I am in the market for that. That gun, that single trigger, percussion cap, long barrel, straight shooting, maxi bomb. All gun. Any gun makers out there? All right. Thanks y'all.

[Stephen Rinella]

Thank you.

[Seth]

Foreign this show is brought to you.

[Stephen Rinella]

In part by Stash Financial.

[Seth]

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[Stephen Rinella]

Not representative of all clients and not a guarantee. View Important [e-mail] MeatEater offer is subject to terms and conditions.